151: Has the LCMS Lost Its Mission? with Adam Koontz ၏ စာသားမှတ်တမ်းအပြည့်အစုံ

and and a lot of my kind of convictions, some of which are about birth control, I came to really by reading the Bible s on my own ish until coming to the L CMS because I didn't come into Christianity through the L CMS. So some of those convictions, you know, my wife grew up in the L CMS. We kinda we shared when we when we got married. So so nine has come about as it were naturally. people people will often ask me, don't you know how this works? And I'll be like, I actually know. Zach: Yeah. Adam: I actually I do, know how this works. But nine is right. Nine Zach: Yeah, more more so than most, yeah. Adam: is nine is five girls and four boys. So it's a nice it's a nice balance. We all we all have to be a little bit nicer than we would otherwise be if we're male and we all have to be a little bit more used to getting knocked around if we're female. And so it's a nice balance for everybody. But yeah, it's a lot of fun. Zach: Yeah. Tell me the a what tell the ages, Adam. Adam: So the ages go from sixteen down to one year. Yeah. Zach: Okay. Wow. Wow. Okay. And so so at nine, that's a full baseball team. Obviously the one-year-old's not not contributing much right now. Adam: That's she well, she you know, she'll she she believes she's contributing and that's that's really what counts. Yeah. Zach: Right. R yeah. D is it is it is it to the point where it's just yeah, you have that many and so it's growing up the older kids kind of know like they gotta chip in and help out, now that they're of you know, of an age that they can be helpful. Adam: Yeah, so yeah, no, right. That that's that is really the question and the the dynamics are totally different and and people don't really believe me when I say this, but it was hardest to have three kids. Zach: Hmm. Adam: especially with them being littler. But I'm one of four, which is I guess a little Zach: Okay. Adam: bit bigger than average, but but it it's very easy to have nine kids, because n no one knows anything except having to help in some way. So Zach: Yeah. Adam: So that makes the chore chart aspirational for the three-year-old. she wants to be on the chore chart. She's not. Zach: Wow. Adam: But but she wants to be because other people are who are bigger. So so the dynamics, Zach: That's crazy. Adam: yeah, the dynamics are just, it's just different. but it, you know, I mean, we we do less, my wife and I, than we did when they were, you know, everybody was little, or, you know, we Zach: Yeah. Adam: had we had three little guys, you know, and we're kind of we're doing the dishes that we don't do the dishes. I don't cut the Zach: Yeah. Adam: Unless the plague is running through the house or something. I'm not cutting the grass. So yeah, so it's just it's just a real different dynamic, maybe, than than people are used to. So it's not like nine people all you know feuding all the like they they can't. Like that would be crazy. So it just has to run a little bit differently. Zach: Yeah, good for you. My 18-year-old, one of the things he was looking forward to most about college was getting off of the chore list and the twice a the twice-a-week Adam: Ha ha ha. Zach: dish duty that we he was so, you know, Adam: Thank you. Zach: that one day in counseling he'll have to talk about the traumatic experiences of that. So it's amazing that your kids are like wanting to get on it. I feel like Adam: Right. No. No, I mean I'm not yeah, I mean I don't I don't think everybody is always like, I'm so happy to do dishes. But like it's Zach: Right. Adam: just it's just life, you know. Because because the thing your eighteen year old is gonna learn is like when you're an adult, you're on the chore chart every day. It's terrible. Yeah. Zach: Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, and hopefully maybe one day he'll come back and say to us maybe once or twice that we were right about one thing or or not. I don't know. Still holding, still holding out, still holding out there. But well, cool, man. And I I want to circle back a little bit more to that conversation just a little bit, but Adam: I yeah, that is the hope, right? That's the hope. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Zach: for the ministry perspective, yeah, tell me a little bit about your story and how you got to Adam: Yeah. Zach: be in ministry. You mentioned you know, that you didn't grow up Lutheran and so I'd love to kind of hear how Adam: Yeah. Zach: how you became a part of the Lutheran church and then what what yeah, what ministry looks like for you these days. Adam: Yeah. I d I didn't grow up in church and I and I went to a college that is very pretty hostile to what anything you might call traditional Christianity. Swathmore College was founded by Quakers, so it was always kind of weird. but it's you know academically really great school. but definitely exposed me to a lot of ideas and I and I guess I would say that they were kind of fight or flight responses, like, do I believe this? So some of the things that Maybe since 2020, people have been exposed to critical race theory is a g is an example, or kind of out and out communism. that kind of a thing was kind of normal at Swathmore. And I said, Do I do I believe this or do I not believe this? And some of the other things that I was reading, especially the guide that I really credit with my conversion, kind of in the same way that, you know, people might read C.S. Lewis and be convinced by that. I, you know, I kind of got to Lewis later. I was reading a poet named T. S. Elliot, who had become a Christian in his own lifetime. And I said, maybe I'll check out what what he was into. So that pushed me. I just, you know, I mean, this is I I would be a nightmare to myself if if I were coming into a church because I came in and I wanted to know everything right away, but I also just walked into the church across the street from my dorm. And so that was an Episcopalian church. Anglican, but but definitely more liberal Protestant. And I I I just went to church every Sunday. I

don't even know why, to be honest with you. But I Zach: Yeah. Adam: read the Bi I I I just felt like I had to. And I read the Bible. and eventually I kind of read the Bible too much to remain an Episcopalian. And and I I guess the kind of the push point as far as ministry was if you're not raised as a Christian. The idea that you would want other people to become Christians is very urgent. I can't explain it in any other way. so I so I thought, okay, I'll go be a priest, you know, an episcopal priest. And they were very, you know, that their formation process I did we don't want to talk about pastoral formation today, just because it I I'm kind of tired talking about it for right now. But yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Zach: I hear ya. It's all good. We don't have to go there. Adam: but but i they had it they have a good process where they form a committee in your home parish that exists as long as you are in formation until you get ordained. And that was really helpful for kind of understanding, you know, what do I need to work on as a as a human being in order to be, you know, a good a good preacher, a good counselor. My female priest at at the college, she was very helpful. I said, you know, I'm not sure about this women's ordination thing. She said, You it's really nice. You know, she was like, Well, you know I understand that you have objections to that. I'm pretty sure Paul wouldn't permit women's ordination. This is her saying this. But you're not, they're not going to ordain you as a priest if you have an objection to that, not in the Episcopal Church today. So I said, okay, well, what do I do? And I I Googled is what I did. I Googled churches Zach: Yeah. Adam: that don't ordain women. Those are the search terms. And I just kind of worked through the list. So that's how I found out that the Missouri Senate existed. Growing Zach: Yeah. Adam: up in Pennsylvania, I didn't know that it existed. I knew about the ELCA, but I didn't know about. So then I I sent emails to a couple pastors and and one responded and and the rest is history, but that's how I became Lutheran. it was really I think I read the Bible maybe twice, but I hadn't heard of Book of Concord, anything like that. Zach: Yeah, I just I just typed in church bodies that don't ordain women and it looks like out of the six or so we're four on the list. So so that's the list you maybe you were working working down, but so cool. So your part of that Adam: Okay. Maybe. Yeah. Zach: story then is yeah, realizing and recognizing some convictions that you had and and as you kind of stumbled into let's just call it the Lutheran Church and maybe an interest Adam: Yes. Zach: into the book of Concord, what what was the journey like after that. Adam: Yeah. I I went to a very small church. culturally it was quite different than the area around it. So this is suburban Philadelphia and you go into the church and like multiple people are from Nebraska. I mean, you don't know anybody else from Nebraska, but right, but in but in the LCMS church you find them. that's where I met my wife Jen, who is who is originally from Minnesota. So i it it's interesting, it's a cultural, kind of an immediate cultural difference. and they're and they're talking about events that I don't exactly know about, they would talk about they would say Yankee Stadium. And I think the Yankees, right? But that's not what that meant. Right. And so the the the experiences simultaneously of learning a lot theologically, which I was prepared to do. And then also needing to learn a lot culturally, which I didn't understand right at first. And I suppose I learned along the way going through seminary and things like that. But it's a small church it's actually closed now. St. Mark's in Ridley Park, Pennsylvania. There are a few of us on the clergy roster who came through it, but that really shaped my perspective, not only the desire to evangelize, but also the desire to to help churches and to promote, particularly struggling churches, which St. Mark's was even when I when I became a member. Zach: Yeah. And what was it then as you were reading through the Book of Concord and getting more involved Adam: Yeah. Zach: with LCMS theology that you're like, that from theological standpoint, what what were you I guess what were you looking for that maybe you Adam: Yeah. Right. Zach: didn't even know you were looking for, but once you found it, you're like what have been a few of the core tenets that have been important for you? Adam: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. I I think that it was it was not what I culturally found to be important within the LCMS. for me it was always the doctrine of the inerrancy of scripture and the fact that the LCMS had not uniquely but almost uniquely turned around on that issue in its own in its own history. that was very unusual. I had read this book, Fundamentalism and the Word of God by J.I. Packer, who's a Who's a reformed Anglican, but really those those types of convictions were certainly not welcome in the Episcopal Church. And the LCMS had complete, it seemed complete and utter agreement on the inerrancy of scripture. That had things downstream from it. You know, I think that's that's why the LCMS doesn't ordain women to this day, and a lot of other things. But that was kind of the conviction. The thing that I found the LCMS was often talking about, and I still find this today, is almost like a like a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox expectation of perfection within itself that I I don't I don't see necessary to the Book of Concord, but certainly is is culturally very important to us. That is, we must perfectly be what the person speaking imagines we ought to be. And I I didn't I didn't come for that. I mean I wasn't wasn't looking for a I was just looking for a kind of a doctrinally clear church. not necessarily Zach: Mm-hmm. Adam: a perfect church. And certainly I found that in the LCMS. I mean it was it is bracing the amount of clear truth

you get when you come from the outside and you're used to like fuzziness and stuff like that. You come into the LCMS, it's amazing. Zach: Yeah, and it's interesting, you mention the amount of clear truth and then the fuzziness. And yet in a lot of our Lutheran theology, like really on some pressing things, one of the things I love about it is it it is it even in the clarity, it kind of ends with a fuzzy, I don't know, with a lot of these, Adam: Mm. Zach: like to me, a lot of the other denominations, they they present answers to things that have nice, tidy you know, bows on them and you can kinda kind of logically understand them. And yet, Adam: Mm-hmm. Zach: yeah, I just don't see that in scripture. Whereas in Lutheran theology, so much clarity and confidence in what it provides. And yet so many of those things that we, you know, are really important, some of the big questions we do kind of end with, you know what? At the end of the day, I don't know, but I trust God, right? Adam: Yeah, I guess yeah, no, that's right. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I I guess I would say that it is it it was a biblical clarity, right? So, Zach: Yeah. Adam: you know, whereas Calvinism might be a logical clarity or Roman Catholicism might be a logical clarity within its own system it works. With the LCMS, they could just say this is what the Bible says, and then you look and that's what the Bible actually says. So so that that was and they leave it there, yeah. Zach: Yeah. And they leave it and they leave it at that rather than trying to Ryan rather than like you said, trying to logically make make some conclusions, Adam: Yes, right. Zach: which is really cool. Cool. So then yeah, tell me that you so you were in this smaller church, St. Mark's, I think you said, Adam: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Zach: and how did you get to be where you are today and now where you're serving in ministry Adam: Yeah. Zach: as a pastor? Adam: Yeah, so I went I went by a roundabout route. because I because my f my first call was kind of in the middle central Pennsylvania. I was told I was going to Tennessee and I was put in central Pennsylvania. So that was fine. Zach: You're always in Pennsylvania, it seems like. Adam: Almost yeah, I mean so they so that that's where I was placed out of seminary. and while there I got a doctoral degree in New Testament and patristics. So that That then caused me to be called to Concordia Theological Seminary to teach New Testament. while I was at my first call, we planted a church, Concordia Lutheran Mission. I I think it I think it died after I left, unfortunately. that's easily my biggest regret in ministry, I guess I'd say. but it that was a that was a wonderful journey. when I was called to teach New Testament. I think I realized within about six months I got ordained to preach the gospel. And that's not the direct first line thing that you do as a seminary professor. So I eventually I returned to parish ministry after three years of that. It really because I I I like the, I guess the way I think of it, my dad was career army, is that the parish ministry is a is a frontline command. it is it is a battle command rather than operational or strategic kind of second order type of posting. So I I like to talk to people who haven't read any books that I've ever written, don't listen to my podcast, don't know or care who I am, and to preach the gospel to them. I I find that also to be much better for my own learning. So this is really just to speak personally, is that from my own part, I find it much better to be. unknown and challenged in my thinking than to be than to to have the comfort necessarily of well they know who you are they they already think that you're gonna say something interesting and profound because obviously you've got a doctorate you must have interesting profound things to say it's it's much better for me to be sharpened by difficulty and challenge. And so today, I have one normal sized about a hundred on a Sunday. congregation in Oakmont and I serve a vacant congregation to my north that has about fifteen to twenty depending on the Sunday. so maybe so maybe I'm riding the wave of the future and serving two congregations at the same time. But yeah, I mean think it's kind of a wonderful, wonderful setting. Zach: What does that look like for you vacancy then? Is it you do do you do what you you do a normal pastor, let's call Adam: Yeah. Zach: it of a soul parish would do on a Sunday morning and then Adam: I do. Zach: pop up there for the afternoon? Or what does tell me what does that look like? Adam: Yeah, good. Yeah. The schedule is that I I serve John Huss, which is a Slovak congregation, at eight AM and then I come down to Redeemer and I do Bible class and then I do the service here at Redeemer, and then on Wednesday nights we do a Zoom study so people from both churches can join. Totally different topic, totally different books of the Bible from Sunday. But that also in allows the John Huss people to get in on it. so that's that's how I do it. They didn't want afternoons. That's fine with me. you know, the I think the one PM kickoff is I'm not being facetious. One PM kickoff matters a lot here. So they wanna be home by one PM and I and I and I understand that. So so that's how we do it. Zach: Yeah, that's that's cool. I really think that's sweet. So talk to you said that you had a r regret from Concordia Lutheran Mission. What what's the regret there? Just that yeah, yeah, tell me. Adam: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, the re I yeah, the re the regret is is, you know, you really don't want to move on to another call unless you feel that your work there has reached like some point of completion that you can kind of see. particularly when you're a soul pastor, right? if you're on a staff that's that's a little bit different, a little bit more understandable. But I I thought that it would continue. because they were both operating almost like a dual parish. and I suppose if I had incorporated

as a congregation, they would have continued, but it didn't continue after I left. So that that's that's a regret is that I think I I think I thought something was finished. It probably wasn't finished, and I probably should have stayed longer. So that's you know, I mean, my entire experience since ordination is is is of being taught truly how dumb I am. By the Lord. he di Zach: Ha ha ha. Adam: he disciplines the one he loves, and there's a lot of discipline required in my case. So he must really love me because Zach: He must really love you then, huh? Adam: he's really had to discipline me. especially in in the intellectual realm. I think I know what I'm doing, I don't know what I'm doing. So it's been really Zach: Yeah. Adam: good, but yeah, that's a regret for sure. Zach: Yeah. So you've written and and you you quite a bit and you've obviously taught some things. Adam: Yep. Yep. Zach: recently, yeah, you've written and talked a lot about evangelism. And so part of my conversations on the red letter disciple in the last year or so have been around helping the LCMS, hopefully helping the LCMS become greater disciples as a whole. And evangelism's a huge piece of that. and and so when you look at the LCMS right now, do have we kind of lost some of that. missionary evangelistic instinct and and maybe talk a little bit about what you see from the evangelism side. Adam: Yeah, that's a good question. And I guess you have to answer it really more I I think I think any LCMS Christian pastor or laity is gonna say, Yes, of course we care about evangelism, because any LCMS Christian is gonna know the gospel and the relevance of the gospel to every single human being, I think is self evident once you know the gospel. but to look at it behaviorally instead of you know, on paper, is that behaviorally This was a a front front line, front seat consideration for us at pretty much any level, right? if you go back far enough in our history, our pastors are effectively wandering around as part of their job, trying to gather usually German-speaking immigrants. I serve, I serve an old English synod congregation. So they were, they had a broader audience. I serve a Slovak congregation, they had a different audience. So if it was divided up by language, the activity was the same. You're trying to find people and bring them in and to organize them if they're not organized into a church. you can also look at relatively more recently. I mean, this is kind of maybe a little bit esoteric, but it's like we used to have a more of a planning function, especially at the district level. Districts were better funded, synod was better funded, but we had more of a planning capacity of both districts and synod for missions. we're gonna go here, we're trying to recruit a guy for this. and that that doesn't exist in a lot of places today. we used to have a what's called a recognized service organization. I don't know how much your listeners know these kind of silly bureaucratic things, but we had an RSO, or it was something like an RSO devoted to training church planters. I I went through their church planter training when I was in seminary, center for US missions. That that doesn't exist anymore. So If you just look at us behaviorally, there there is kind of less planning and I would imagine less planting proportionally. We also do things that organizations that are not trying to expand, churches that are not trying to expand the number of churches do like we argue a lot. and and that that happens, I I think part of that is social media, part of that is greater exposure to one another. Part of that too is you feel that the thing is going under or or at least going down. it's it's a team that's probably that's definitely gonna finish with a losing record. So we've already started thinking about what's wrong and how to fix things. so those dynamics, I guess I I do not think we would see. I mean, had a professor in seminary, my bum my most beloved professor was David Scare, and when he graduated from Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, in the 1950s, every other guy in his class got a call to start a church. he got an established parish, but every other guy got something new. Zach: Yeah. Adam: So I think when that's going on, you just have a different, you have a different focus. so i I would say behaviorally, it seems obvious we don't care as much as we used to. It's not, it's not as urgent, maybe as it once was. although I think obvious we have obvious doctrinal reasons to care and to and to promote the the propagation of the gospel. Zach: Yeah, I think that's fascinating to think through, you know, you know, the thinking of that kind of, you know, on a losing record. I'm, you know, we talked earlier about my Cleveland Browns. Like we're we're always like, Adam: Right. Right. Zach: who's gotta get fired and what how do we fix? And we got all these armchair armchair quarterbacks, which I'm Adam: Right. Zach: I'm one of them, right? I can sit on the chair and tell you everything to fix the team. and in some ways I think I might be more competent and even though I don't know anything about football. But this isn't about football. But I think, yeah, there, there's, you know, when it feels like you know, we're we're struggling, I I think we can take our eye off the ball a little bit when it comes to reaching new people and get stuck in these arguments. And that's where I see a lot of the arguments kind of around like I've called it there's protectors and proclaimers. And some we we use words like confessional and missional quite a bit in LCMS circles. And my whole thing is like just like a football team has an offense and defense, like to be a team, like you need you need both aspects of it, right? And so, Adam: Right. Zach: and so you need like you need you need people that are protecting and preserving our doctrine and and that's really healthy. And but you also need like those that are gonna kind of push the envelope and

proclaim you you you need them both working and and similarly with confessional missional, which I don't think is totally fair because I think we we should be both. But anyway, what what are your thoughts on that idea of it feels like a lot of times we're forced into very binary, it's this or that and you're one or the other. Is that kind of what you're picking up a little bit too, or and how do we combat that or do we combat? Adam: Yeah, I th well I think I think that being put into camps and then having different names for the camps and I wanna say Wolfmiller has Wolfmiller has the same camps but different names, but I can't I can't sorry Zach: yeah, yeah. He's he's got it's barrier barrier breakers and distinction keepers, maybe something like that. Adam: Sorry to w I can't, my apologies to Wolf Miller. I can't remember what he said, but okay, good. Zach: I think I got you, Wolf Mueller. Adam: But but but what you know, whatever they are, I think that that's gonna be natural to a couple of things. that's especially natural to a political cycle. So when kind of your foregrounded LCMS white activity is politics, not for example, let's have a process to actually sort out a practical or a doctrinal distinction that we need to work through. Which we we we used to have, right? It was like that was that was most of Synod Convention. It wasn't voting on stuff. It wasn't it wasn't like here's these people doing this, watch this video. It was like, do we disagree on this and what do we do about it? if if your n if your main foregrounded LCMS thing is gonna be the political cycle, this is this is actually nothing against politics. It's just like politics is not there to sort through the truth. It it is there to win elections. That's what politics is for, right? That's so when it's winning elections, it's actually doing what it's supposed to do. But it's not gonna bring people together. It's not gonna add clarity that's that's real necessarily. It's just gonna it's going to win an election. That's what it's for. So you you would need kind of foregrounded things that promote greater underst both both understanding but also like Okay, yeah, I don't actually agree with that, or I do agree with that, or what do you mean by that word, or or why do you do this, or whatever? And you'd actually have to talk through that stuff. If that's not happening, then of course, those camps, however real they are, right? And I especially the one I can remember, is confessional missional. That's that's the only one I can keep in my head. Of course, I want to be both. I'm Zach: Yeah. Adam: I'm missional because I am confessional. If I Zach: Yeah. Adam: were not a confessional Lutheran, I wouldn't have a lot to say to the world. So I wouldn't have much motivation for mission. Zach: Mm. Adam: Right? So that's simple. But but that's, you know, that that's not what politics are gonna are gonna do for you. So Zach: Yeah. Yeah. Adam: I I think I think the issue is usually that our only our only synod-wide activity most of the time is the political cycle. Zach: Yeah, that that that makes sense. And I think, some of the struggles is for whatever reason it feels like we we live in kind of an either or world. And a lot of times some of these answers are more both and. And I'm I'm along those lines when it comes to kind of circling back to evangelism and the missional side of things. you know, you you've written recently around evangelism and babies. why why can't we have both? That's a bull it's a both and thing. And obviously the babies thing is yeah, you you do pretty well at that. But tell me a little bit about what you Adam: Yeah. Zach: mean by evangelism and babies. Why can't that be a strategy for us? Adam: Yeah. Well that yeah, that has to do with this. I don't know how many years ago this was, but there was some there was some study that that the Senate commissioned that was about basically our demographics and our birth rate, our retention rate, our baptism rate, all this kind thing demographics. And that eventually we were gonna have more babies than the average population or something. So maybe we were gonna do call it like an Amish light strategy where the Amish have like very high birth rate, very high retention rate. So they grow and grow and grow. I think they're at least twice the size they were 40 years ago. We're slightly smaller than we were 40 years ago. So we had a plateau and now we're going off the plateau. So i I I in it I think the confusion there was always like babies don't exist. God does not open and close the womb as sp as some kind of specific church growth strategy. And I the r I'm not I'm not just saying that to be nitpicky, I'm saying that because It's an insight about creation that even non Christians have. And I think everyone understands when the psalm says, as a blessing, may you see your children's children. Right. That's that doesn't have to do, strictly speaking, with that we proclaim the praises of him who called us out of darkness into his marvelous light. Those are two different things. and so I I like I don't have nine children in order to have a slightly larger church membership. I I receive I believe that there are gifts from God, all of them. and I know that very profoundly. So I don't, you know, it's like that's true independently of whether and how I engage in evangelizing somebody who has little to no contact with the church, like in my area. Almost everybody's a baptized Roman Catholic. Almost nobody goes to church on Sundays. That's a separate issue. That's a separate, that's a separate set of biblical texts that pertain to it. From the question of are children a gift from God and how do we receive them and all that kind of thing. So I don't I don't think that we should think of present-day demographics or future projections as any kind of replacement for evangelism because they're not motivated by the same thing. One involves receiving a gift of God's creation in children,

be fruitful and multiply. The other involves there is a entire world that will only hear. The elect will only hear. through the proclamation of the gospel. So even if you say like, well, God is going to save his elect, yes, through the gospel, right? The Holy Spirit has called me by the gospel. So that's a that's just a different thing. Zach: Yeah. And and two, I think, my my thing is cool. Ha yeah, ha have babies, but that can't be our number one evangelism strategy because it first off, limits, you know, quite a bit of people. we don't Adam: Yeah. Zach: want our teenagers having babies yet. That's not your strategy Adam: Yeah. Zach: yet. But but hopefully there's something for them, right? There is Adam: Yeah, yeah. Zach: an evangelism that they can do. and even the ones that we do have, right? Some of the reports are you know. I think Lyman Stone mentions that 80% of those LCMS that by the time they're 20, they aren't LCMS anymore. So like we have retention issues as well. So it's not just a quick stamp and on Adam: Yeah. And it Yes. Yes. Right. Zach: things. And so and so that's where I yeah, I I fall back on you know, the gospel, like you mentioned. If we're really confessional, we are missional. And and to me, I think Lutherans I would maybe let me point point this back to you. Like what What do Lutherans uniquely have going for us when it comes to reaching people that don't that don't know Jesus? Adam: I would I would say that uniquely we have a an extremely clear foundational form of Christianity comprehensible by anybody. And this is and it so I d I don't want to say and I I don't think any confessional Lutheran needs to say we're the only ones who have the gospel. Because when we're talking about evangelism, we are talking very purely about the communication of the gospel, strictly speaking, to people who need to hear it, right? People who do not know that. That can be accomplished by a Baptist, that can be accomplished by a Roman Catholic. they're gonna have some problems. A Lutheran is going to be able to communicate the gospel with a clarity, especially based on the foundational document of the small catechism, that nobody else has. And the only reason we take that for granted is because we're unacquainted with doing it to people who don't know the small catechism. Like we we generally just take our own stuff for granted and then don't want to communicate that. And it's like, no, please give them the law, the creed, how to how to be in contact with God, and then the means of grace. Like give them just those clear basics. People don't know that stuff. So I think that particularly in the United States, what we are uniquely offering is a clarity of communication in the gospel, and that the law and the gospel are actually distinct from each other, which is not clearly communicated by many Christians. Certainly not over the long term. That nobody else is really bringing to the table. But that has to be proclaimed. if and when it's not, or

we're like hesitant about it ourselves. Like, what is the small catechism? When that's a problem on our end, then of course it's not gonna be. It's not gonna get out there. And that that's what I kind of that's what I'm saying earlier, behaviorally, it's like this was such a priority with the original Lutheran hour that you know, we're like. Hey, here's a sign, Church of Lutheran Hour. You guys have heard of the Lutheran Hour, right? What thing do we put out there? Even if it would be like a YouTuber or whatever, what are we putting out there that it the average person would know about? And then we could be like, Yeah, that's one of us. That's that's ours. That's our thing. And then they'd be like, that's cool. You know, that we would be communicating that with such clarity because we can, because it's like sitting there. It's like, to me, the Lutheran Church of Missouri Sin like the the the ultimate sports car you never drive. Like like take it out on the road. Like see what it can do. because what we have to bring to the table I think is uniquely biblically clear. Zach: Yeah. And I and I and I I think you're spot on. I think one of the things that I was listening to Stecker's on the line podcast and he brought on I think it's Matt Whitman. and Matt's done a lot of deep studies into different denominations and does some fun YouTube videos and he actually he's not LCMS, but he has great respect for L CMS and kind of the the style of church and and just kind of a lot of the history of it. And it it felt very respectful. One of the things he said, so while while you're saying w we've got some clarity on the gospel on the front end, I think one of his big and again, he's not LCMS. He's given he's giving us I I kind of viewed it as like a consultant from the outside of like how c Adam: Right. Zach: what what would you tell the LCMS if you, you know, if you could tell us anything. And and I'm I'm pr I'm probably miss missing his words a little bit, but the paraphrase that I kind of picked up or the idea that I picked up from him was was well may be clear at the front, how to be a Christian, if you will, is confusing for him as Adam: Yes. Zach: he's looking into the LCMS. And so we may have a clarity up front, but from his perspective, a confusion at afterwards. agree to that or what would you kind of say to that? How how would you have answered Matt on that? Adam: Yeah, I I would I would agree and I would disagree. Okay. I think the disagree comes because I think I think Matt Whitman is EV free, is Zach: Uh-huh. Adam: that generally an evangelical Christian or an American evangelical Christian is accustomed to a certain sequence of especially preaching, like preaching and Bible study diet is gonna be super heavy on What in Lutheran terms we would call the narrow meaning of sanctification. So, how do I, how do I approach other people with humility? How do I give well? all those kinds of things. And I think that's those are great. I would agree with him

that we we don't talk about those things as often as scripture does. So instead, like we'll have a debate about whether and how the third use of the law should even be in a sermon to guide Christians in good works. we're debating, should we even say that sometimes? Okay. That that's that's an issue. so I would agree with him that we don't talk about those things. I would disagree because I don't think that American evangelicalism captures enough of the parts of Christianity that are profoundly mysterious. Obviously, that involves the and the encounter with the risen Jesus Christ in the Lord's Supper. That also involves Direct absolution of my sins. That also involves the mystery of conversion, because they they generally are teaching some form of what would be called decision theology. So I would say, in a way, their understanding of the Christian life is a little too rational and therefore like a little less biblical than it needs to be. Whereas in the small catechism, I'm going to run from the stuff pretty much everybody's going to be okay with. Commandments, Creed, Lord's Prayer. Now I run straight into baptism. And there I have I have died with Christ. So I'm not even living anymore, according to Paul. Right? But Christ is living in me. So then I'm so then I'm pressing like an Olympic athlete for the resurrection. I'm pressing ahead towards the goal. So those aspects of life I think are under reported by us and underappreciated. By many other, you could say, in a sociological way, evangelical Christians. So I would agree with him. We don't talk enough about any of the things that the Holy Spirit is doing in us through our lives by his word. But I would disagree that that it somehow involves something that we that we don't already have. I just I think we don't explain ourselves very well, especially to new people. And therefore the things that are really profound and really mysterious and very beautiful go underappreciated by everybody. Zach: Yeah, that's fair. I I had a guy that you know at my church when I was pastoring planted in Florida and it was he was actually I think he was an AfLAC salesman and he was coming we were in a storefront Adam: Yeah. Zach: and he was coming in to sell me insurance and somehow I flipped the conversation into talking about Jesus and the church and he started he started coming with his girlfriend and he got baptized. It was a beautiful thing. And the week after the baptism He came up to me and and he said, there were a few people there that Sunday and it was like we had a great celebration. It was awesome. but I don't feel any different and I don't know what to do. And and Adam: Ha ha ha. Zach: you know, and and I I really struggled with that because, you know, my good seminary Lutheran answer is, Well, dude, you you don't have to do anything, right? You're you're saved by grace through faith. Adam: Yeah. Zach: but what but that's not what he was asking me. And I think that's where we struggle sometimes is I I

I wasn't able to give him a really good answer. I gave him a lazy answer. What he was looking for were disciplines or habits or Adam: Yep. Yep. Zach: something around discipleship, something around the third use, the sanctification. and sometimes that I think is a struggle for us of we're so and rightly so focused on making sure that people know how we are saved and that God gets all the credit and the glory that. Sometimes we neglect to give really practical, helpful. Is that w it yeah, maybe maybe riff on that or agree, disagree. Adam: Yeah. Yeah, no no, I no, I I do agree with that, but I think that's because we often tend to think of Lutheranism as like some kind of system which effectively then gets reduced to you know, and I'm not being flippant, I'm saying like this is the length of them, it gets reduced to verbal memes. You know, so it's like it's saved by grace, it's this, it's that. And that might prevent us from in like in his case, there is no difference between The doctrine of Jesus and the practice of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. so if you look at the Sermon on the Mount, there's a practice involved there. There is forgiveness, there's prayer, there's alms giving. why is alms giving so good for you? Why is fasting involved? Those things are also descriptions of the Lord Jesus Himself, because he never does things that he will not ask someone else to do, nor does he ask us to do things he himself. will not do. he does those things that he asks us to do. He is the image in which we are being renewed. So when I think about that, you know, there's the d distinction between doctrine and practice, I understand that on an intellectual level, like some things I can think about, other things I practice. Yes, that makes sense. But I'm only practicing the things that I practice because of what I believe. And I'm only believing those things that are in their various ways put into practice. And that that includes even things we would say are just purely doctrinal. the the doctrine of the humanity of the Lord Jesus is a great comfort and encouragement to me in temptation, because he is tempted like me and everyone in every way, yet without sin. It's very beautiful. So I I think that doctrine and practice are biblically much less separated than we often talk about them in the LCMS. Zach: Yeah. I just did a filmed a series for right now media for on the Sermon on the Mount called The Building Challenge. And Adam: Okay. Zach: just super yeah, I love that idea that Jesus is giving, obviously talking about the kingdom of heaven that that's here and then unpacking what the blessed life, the good life, is in Christ. And yeah, sometimes it it's easy to separate doctrine and practice, but r they really Adam: Yes. Zach: are linked very well, and especially in the Sermon on the Mount too. So Adam: Yeah. Yes, sir. Zach: Let let's move to yeah, a little bit. I I did a survey, twenty twenty six state of the LCMS survey. We had we had three thousand and seventy Lutheran people respond. so a number of pastors and church workers and laity. and interesting things coming. And so I want to kind of throw a few things at you and have you kind of Adam: Sure. Yeah. Zach: respond or react to them. First, kind of around I would say young adults. I'm really passionate about reaching young adults, around young adults, and then can and then what we just talked about confessionalism. one of the findings that surprised me in the survey was our youngest respondents. So the 18 to 29 year olds. so the question was kind of around would you describe yourself as more confessional, slightly more confessional, compared to neutral and then missional, slightly more missional or missional. And the young adults were actually by far in a way the ones that described themselves the most confessional. Adam: Yes. Zach: and they were also on a lot of these other things, more so on the traditional side of things, let's just say it. so things like they were more likely to favor a common order and hymnal, more likely to suggest closed communion over close and obviously against open communion, more likely to choose residential seminary and even place greater imp importance on Greek and Hebrew. and so I was a little surprised by that. What what do you make of that? Adam: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not surprised by that. I mean, I I think that the the world is especially chaotic right now. it also doesn't have a ton to offer you, particularly if you're a young man. And so the idea that you would you would go for the most old fashioned version of whatever you're going for holds not only in our denomination but in many others. So that doesn't surprise me. at at all. I I think I think that there are going to be a just a a shift in what is being talked about simply because the generations are shifting. You know, and a lot of things that have long been debates in the LCMS, your worship practices, how you worship you what what is kind of your order of service, what kind of music do you have, that kind thing. Those those are all debates Presuming that people are going into a church somewhere, so what are they interested in seeing there? Whereas if the the lower you go demographically in our general population, the less religious it is. So so having debates about kind of, you know, are what how are we gonna do this once we get in there? You know, it's like I I don't know, let's just go with the old fashioned option. Like that's that's probably better than whatever we're having right now. That's instinctual, I think, especially Zach: Mm-hmm. Adam: when in in your general acquaintance in the outside world, people just aren't religious, So it's like, okay, do you want to have debates about how to be LCMS or do you just want a standard down the line, straight down the line, straight out of the book, LCMS church? You're gonna go for straight out of the book LCMS. So I think it has to do with kind of the context of let's say everybody under 30, right? because

I'm I'm I'm an old man at this point. what I think Zach: Same. Adam: doesn't matter, you know, but but under thirty I think you're dealing with a very n an increasingly less religious America. Zach: Yeah, and and also the things that they've had to deal with, right, are different than the things that we dealed with when we were teenagers. And Adam: Hundred percent. Yeah. Yes. Zach: obviously with technology and the rise of not just social media, like for their entire life. Whereas for Adam: Yes. Zach: us it was, you know, we knew we knew what it was like prior, but then artificial intelligence coming onto the the scene. And that's my thing, I think, is like in a world where there's so much hollow and fake, and and I and I think they're at a Adam: Yeah. Zach: I think their filters are a lot are a lot more refined, let's say, than the older generations. Adam: they're so good. No, they're so good. Yes. Zach: I just I just think they're looking for something that has some history and some roots and some depths to it, depth to it. Adam: Yep, you got it. Yep. Zach: and so yeah. and and so I'm I'm actually like really thinking through some things on a practical level, especially in the LCMS when we talk about how to reach because I'm always like Yeah, I love our theology, but I want to reach people. And you mentioned earlier, on the losing team, I don't like being on a losing team. And and and and Adam: I hate it. Zach: and and that's a little bit of gosh, why why are we if if some of the very same things that I think our young adults are saying they're interested in, Adam: Yeah. Yeah. Zach: if we have those things, then like almost like w This feels like an opportunity to me. respon yeah, agreed. Adam: Yeah. Yeah, no, I I think it I think it definitely is an opportunity. I think it's I think it's unformed and I understand that. I mean, I'm not saying that I'm not saying that condescendingly. I'm saying that like I I did this too. Like I was a young guy interested in vaguely traditional things, like just not, you know, I was learning in class about heteronormativity. So I was like, I think heteronormativity is good, you know, like where do I find that? Like is there a church that says created male and female? That's pretty good stuff. So So in that case, I remember this and it it's it's it's very vague. It's it's more like a vibe than a set of convictions. So if that can be, if that's if that's there, I go into the church, here are the women, here are the men, they're different, and and it's like this and it's good and and this is being taught, that's attractive, right? Because especially when you are young and your mind is on fire and it can change in all kinds of directions, to offer a very clear, but not like H not not like harsh think this or you're gonna die, but but this is clear and this is steady. that's gonna be very unique. that is very unique. They certainly don't hear that in humanities classes that they're taking. So I think that's that's it we have a lot going for us. It just it needs to get out there. Yeah. Zach: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a huge conviction of mine too. And then not only does it need to get out there, it it also needs to get inside our churches. I would say that was one of the Adam: Yeah. Zach: other that was one of the other things kind of from the survey, you know, as I'm looking at like as I'm looking at kind of things of what's different, what's similar, where are different kind of ages or genders or Adam: Yeah. Zach: church positions differing and similar as I'm kind of dissecting all of that. The one the one thing that was pretty similar across the board, no matter no matter age or gender or who they've, preferred in our presidential election. one of the similarities was that there aren't many churches across the board that have some sort of young adult ministry to them. Adam: Yeah. Zach: And and so that's to me where I think, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. Like again, I hate being on a losing Adam: Yeah. Zach: team. So can we think strategically about a Adam: Yeah. Zach: few things, at least on the missional, exciting side that that might somehow by the Lord's grace and through his Holy Spirit's power working through us that might move the needle. And one of those things for me that I think we're seeing a perfect time for, it's why I'm launching HODOS, a new young adult nonprofit, is like w we need to be investing in in our young adults. And this is Adam: Yeah. Zach: a prime time. And so let's let's do this. Thoughts on that? Adam: Yeah. Yeah, no, I and and I'm sorry I don't I don't I hope nothing if I'm reinventing the wheel by saying what I'm gonna say, you know, I don't know much about Hodos, but I know that it means road in Greek, that's all I know. But Zach: It does, yeah. I I always say it's it's actually yeah, the way the way I like to say it, it's a it's a new nonprofit for 18 to 29 year olds in the Lutheran church. So we're creating a national young adult gathering, but we're also creating a network kind of spotlighting young adult ministries that are happening in Lutheran churches and then eventually creating resources. It's brand new, but I always like to say it's the Adam: Okay. Yeah. Zach: it's the it's the synod, it's the synhodos. Adam: Yeah, right. Zach: it's it's it's basically the synod without the word sin. Hodo ho hodos. Anyway, yeah. Adam: That's good. yeah, no. I we we had a very durable model for this in Walther League, which is basically every congregation had this as a function of its life that people from roughly high school age through I mean, life also started earlier at the time, so it didn't you weren't postponing adulthood until twenty five, right? Like so it started a little bit earlier, but it's like Every everybody is able to get together on a regional or a local level. You're getting together. there are many, many people in any of the three congregations I've served who met in Walther League. So they were from kind of

neighboring congregations. And today, you know, maybe the pastors know each other from the neighboring congregations, but but the people don't. so that's that that was durable and it kind of trained you the activities to to be an adult church member. And I think that was a great thing. It it paid attention to the fact that these things don't happen just totally organically, And I think I think that if especially if you're interested in retention, so that's totally true, we could baptize tons of babies with our current retention rate. We're still not gonna not gonna grow or not gonna grow by much. So if you wanna up the retention rate, that that does have to do with the kids knowing each other. And and forming life having a life together that it that has a stronger pull than especially our kids usually go into being nothing. I'm sure a certain percentage become non-denom, a certain percentage become whatever. Most of our kids just become unbelievers. So in order for that not to change, the church really needs to be stickier, and for it to be stickier, it has to kind of live together. so that you know, Walther League. understood that, promoted that, did that to the extent that, I d I've done wedding renewal vows for people that that met when they were fifteen in Walter League. Which Zach: Yeah. Adam: which is like just so cool. You know, yeah. Zach: Nice. Yeah. Yeah. So this is a statement I've been throwing around a little bit lately. So I'd love to hear your take Adam: Yeah. Okay. Zach: on it. as I'm looking at young adults and Gen Z and some of the stuff we just talked about. So the way I I phrase it is Gen Z is looking for both transcendence and truth. And that's where I'm like, yeah, Lutheranism's got a great opportunity right now. The transcendence is right that that extra nose, that outside of us, that encounter with God. And I think we have that in spades with the sacrament. And truth. And again, clearly I think we have that as well. So Gen Z is looking for transcendence and truth, but here's my butt. But mostly Adam: Okay. Zach: community. And so my my thing is like I think that if if if our churches don't have these types of opportunities and the non-denom down the road has a bunch of young adults, I think they're gonna go to the non-denom church. Thoughts, opinions. Adam: Yeah. Yeah, I yeah, no, I think I because you do have to you do have to explain something, and I think that that theory does explain this, that as the percentage of Christians relative to the general American population has shrunk. and it and it just kind of continues to do so. so w it's a target rich environment for evangelism. As that has shrunk, those Christians have concentrated more and more and more into nondenom churches. I mean there are there are any number of public figures, public figures seem to almost uniquely become Catholic or non-denominational. And usually if they were Catholic, they were raised non-denominational. Right? Non-denominational is kind of default American Christianity. Lutherans have their own distinctives, doctrinally and practically, for very good reasons. But I think that the reason that non-denom flourishes is because it is offering that com they they're very good at community After that they're not so much, right? So they have a very high, you could put it like a a churn rate. There's a lot of people in the door. And then as as those people change and grow, they go out the door and they go somewhere else. And maybe they become Catholic or maybe they become Lutheran or whatever. But I think that you you want to offer all of those things for anybody, right? Because everybody needs all three of those things that you mentioned. I mean, and you could think of other things that they need, but They all need to know the living God, that's a transcendence. They need to know what he says. That's the truth. They need to be in his church. That's the community. so that's all good. I think that I think that Nandanam has focused on community, has focused on those very human aspects of church and usually maximize them. I mean, they use analytics in the way that pretty much every winning sports franchise does. And We barely know who's really a member and who's not in the LCMS. So we're, you know, we're playing kind of 1980s style baseball still, but they're using analytics. And that that can't maximize transcendence and truth, but it can maximize the way that community is built up, and they've done that very well, right? Credit to them. and that's something that that we really have to work on because I think we have taken the communities that we do have for granted because certainly historically the Lutheran Church Missouri Center was almost entirely A familial religion. You came into it by virtue of your family. That's, people can say, and they're not speaking clearly, but they are speaking truly. They I was born LCMS. Well, nobody was, but I know exactly what they mean. You know, it's a it's a Zach: Yeah. Adam: familial, it's an inherited religion, and that's that's normal for most people through most of history. Nanda Nam has been very good at this isn't your familial religion, but this offers you something. And I think we need to learn how to communicate that for our own part. Zach: Yeah. I got fifteen other questions we're not gonna get to today, but let me let me ask just a couple more from you as Adam: Okay, yeah, no worries. Zach: as you kind of look at the landscape of what we're experienc experiencing in the LCMS, because you you do you serve locally, at a church and as vacancy. And and so you're but you have a pretty good pulse on what's going on, I would say, nationally in our church body as well with some of the roles and that you had and some of the writings that you put out. And so from your perspective, what are I don't know, top top two or three things that our church body as a whole should really be thinking about and working towards solutions, if you will, for let's call it

a a a better future walking to together. Adam: Okay. Yeah, I mean, as far as walking together goes, so I mean the because the top the absolute top priority is the proclamation of the gospel and the discipling of all nations. I mean that that always is. And and when that stops being number one, we we have lost the point of the you know, we haven't understood that, you know, the point of football is to score. we thought it was maybe just to make tackles or something. So the the point of what the church does is the proclamation of the gospel to all, to every creature. that therefore, because of that ranking, after that comes the the clarity or another word that that Lutherans have often used is the purity of what is said, right? is are we actually being clear in all the ways that the Bible is clear and and not being more clear than the Bible? Okay, which we which we talked about a little bit earlier. Are we being completely are we relaying the message faithfully? And to me, that's why the inerrancy of scripture has mattered so much. Because once the authority of God's word and the clarity of it is gone, you can fight over anything that you want to, and different churches will fight differently. So that kind of plays into the other one, which is are we actually investing in God's own priorities? Or are we investing in priorities that particularly because of our political cycle become urgent? and I you know, I can give examples of that. We can do this another time, whatever you want to do. But I mean, I I think that if you're Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Zach: Maybe a couple of examples just to help understand that a little bit. Yeah. Adam: I mean, even just the terminology surrounding pastoral formation is kind of has been very confused. There's a lack of clarity there. Because online and hybrid mean different things within academia. and that that hasn't been clear. there's just a lot that hasn't been clear. And the the reason is we are not engaged corporately in seeking truth. We're engaged corporately in electoral cycles. That's what we have fallen into. And there are all sorts of reasons that could be or might be or are, but the fact is that we're here. And if we can't seek truth, then it's very possible that something comes up in the future that it's not even an issue anyone is thinking about today, right? That's the we know from history that's usually what happens, right? People don't see things coming. So let's say we're faced by something in the future, and then what do we do about this? Okay. if we're not able to seek truth with one another, then you can't preserve unity. So we could be totally agreed straight down the line on everything today. I would say I would say, for example, close and closed communion are the same thing. I know they were different in the survey. I think they're the same thing. Let's say, okay, well, that doesn't matter because Zach has to beat Adam in an election. Well, then, you know, I wouldn't blame you to hammer like Koontz is totally wrong about this. He's an idiot for the following reasons. Because you're trying to win an election. It's very different if you say, Well, here's why I use them differently on the survey. And I say, I understand what you mean by that, but here's how it was used in 1932. Whatever, right? those are just two different things seeking truth, winning elections. If we're just about winning elections, and that's all we ever invest our time or energy in, then we're not gonna find truth. And so maybe we think we're even good to go today, 2026. But what if there's a problem in 2028 and we're like, I don't know what I think. And then that just like blows stuff up. So I'm worried about the fragility of a Group that is not able to find doctrinal and practical truth together anymore. That that's to me, that's the biggest issue. So we would need processes, people, stuff that are going to enable us to get there. to me, that's a goal. We've been using football analogies because it's football season. Steelers are going to destroy the Browns, I'm sure of it, right? Zach: Ha ha. Adam: is that this is to me, this is like a team that never has team meetings. And what are you what are you supposed to talk about at a team meeting? You're not gonna talk about You're not gonna just talk about the offense was terrible at this, the defense was terrible at that. You're gonna talk about how are we gonna win the next game with both an offense and a defense. And we we just tend not to do that. And and I don't Zach: Mm. Adam: I don't personally understand that, Zach, because the hardness of heart is a sign of God's judgment. If you want to talk to other people and seek truth with other Christians, that's a that's a good thing. Zach: Yeah. Adam: Right? You're not You're not hardened against them. if you seek truth and then you say, no, we have to part ways, that's that's one issue. But if you're not even trying, no, that's a you problem. That's your hardness of heart. That's no good. Right. So I think that we need, in addition to a commitment to the clarity of truth, we also need processes and and people committed to them who are going to find that truth. Because I'm not even just thinking of like, Pastoral formation, worship style, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Talking points we could talk about today, all day. But something that in 10 years' time we're not even foreseeing, because the world changes quickly. Zach: Yeah. Adam: And we we can't even get together because we we lost the ability to be together. Zach: Hmm. Yeah. And and you look at right the rise of social media and how I think that that has probably moved toward, I would say, a more hardening of some hearts towards one another in our church body. And then Adam: yeah. yeah. Zach: you you know, you say what 10 years from now? I mean, I'm looking at artificial intelligence. I'm like, we're on the early side of this. we're we're gonna we're gonna have to have way more conversations and figure figure

this out to some degree. Adam: Yeah. Yeah. Zach: or or it it has the potential to yeah to further divide. and so yeah, that that's helpful. And I I think I I think there's some really good wisdom in there of you know wanting and hoping to seek truth and to talk together. And that's a huge piece of what this podcast is for. Trying to bring some similar but some different voices. to different topics to understand. And I think Adam: Yeah. Zach: that's a huge piece of getting underneath underneath someone's story and into their shoes for a little while to kind of understand, if you will, why they are the way they are, how they made decis the decisions that they made. some sometimes Adam: Yeah. Zach: when you talk to them actually it it it it it's it's usually not like Those people that are different than us are pure evil. There there's likely some contextual things that you know. So anyway, I I appreciate that. And I I do think that how do we get away from how do we get away from just focusing on you know, an every three year or whatever presidential election type stuff? And how do we how do we get the troops together to to meet together, to talk as a team, to game plan, to to to look at not only where we're struggling but But how how we can come out ahead? And what are Adam: Yeah. Zach: and that's where I love that's where I love those conver like I love getting in conversations like that. And there's just not a lot of places for it. And I do feel like the Adam: Yeah. Zach: ones like, I'll just be real with you, the ones that I feel like are pushing in that direction is best practices in Phoenix, Arizona. there's a fall, there's a fall version in the Midwest. And I'm like, some people knock that conference, and it's like at least we're trying to do something. you know, what and so that's where I'm like. That's why I love conferences like that. It gives me hope because I get to hear what others are doing and what is working or not working or and and Adam: Yeah. Zach: sometimes anyway, I may be going on a soapbox there, so Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I I mean I I d I I think on a long enough I'm not I'm not really a d I'm not a I'm not an LCMS doomer. I'm not an AI doomer. but I'm not I'm Zach: Yeah. I'm not either. Adam: yeah, I'm I'm not an LCMS doomer because I I it's a it's a common to me it's a very common issue. It's r it's related to the same thing as retention, that we we generally have cultural things we have not baked in. And the culture dissolved and we didn't have anything to replace it. So back in the day, it was culturally expected that the pastor would show up at his circuit meeting or his winkle, some call it, and he's going to discuss things there. And there are like you can find back in the day, you can find lists of questions that your circuit visitor was going to ask you about what you were actually doing at your church. When that culture, because none of that was coercive and the LCMS was set up to be very highly for. Clear historical reasons, totally non-coercive, in a in a way that very few church bodies have ever been anywhere. you have to use a doctrinally pure hymn book and agenda. Which one? We're not gonna tell you. You know, like that's not required, right? So so this is an experiment in freedom. Freedom requires an immense amount of investment in culture. You can't give people tons of freedom and then just leave them totally alone. Of course they drift apart, of course they are suspicious of each other. Of course they're doing whatever they want. You have to have a culture that cultivates unity when disunity is obvious and easy. So if you don't have that, so on a long enough timescale for me, that culture of trust and high knowledge of each other, especially among the pastors, many of whom would go to school with each other, certainly the leadership, because leadership was pulled pretty much exclusively from Concordia Seminary graduates. If you went to Springfield, now Fort Wayne, you were going to be a parish pastor. You weren't going to be in charge of anything. So everybody who was in charge of anything basically knew each other and and in many cases had known each other since they were playing baseball together when they were 14. That's creates a totally different dynamic than what we have now, where we are largely strangers to each other before seminary. so I I think that there's a cultural adjustment that has to happen. unless you just want a legal solution. And a legal solution would be like, this is the hymnal you use, this is what you do, this whatever. If you don't want that, you have it you need a cultural shift towards people having to engage with each other, having to check up with each other and stuff like that. Because right now I to me we're we are an NFL team that never has team meetings. So and so of course we're not playing well, Yeah. Zach: Yeah. And you got a couple of armchair quarterbacks here just tossing out some ideas, but w and I am one of them. but Adam: You got you got tons of armchair quarterbacks. Yeah, of course of course, yeah. Zach: awesome, man. Adam, I appreciate your your Adam: Yeah. Zach: wisdom and and what you do and yeah, we try to make this practical as well for discipleship and so we'd love to kind of hear maybe on the on the way out what's what's something practical that has been important in your life to grow as a disciple of Jesus that you would maybe challenge people listening that they should do in their life? Adam: Yeah, I I would I would challenge you to press in on the things that Jesus actually tells you in the scriptures to do, not the myths that grow up in churches around what Jesus wants or what what Christianity is. But you press into those things and then you're going to find out how great a savior he is. because your your deepening awareness will be a deepening awareness of your own insufficiency. but his power is made perfect in weakness. It's completed in weakness. So you have to press in to find

those things and you have to ask for whatever you require. And then I think you will you will find him an even an even more magnificent savior than than you at first thought. Zach: Yeah. I like that there was that word insufficiency reminds me of a close word that I was reading about the other day from John Ortberg who he was talking it's about recovery and the twelve steps and especially Adam: Mm-hmm. Zach: step one of you know people willing to admit that their life is unmanageable. and and so he calls it the celebration of personal inadequacy. and and and I I really liked that phrase that he's not celeb Adam: Yeah. Zach: he's not celebrating the fact that you and I are inadequate, or that an addict or someone that would be going through Adam: Yeah. Zach: that program, they're not celebrating that part of it. But it it is considered a a milestone and a celebration to be recognized when somebody gets to the point of saying, I can't, I'm insufficient, I'm inadequate, because that's really when God can do a mighty work. So Pretty sweet. So hey man, if people want to connect with you, Adam, where where can they connect with you or where can they find you? Adam: Yeah, I I do twice a week the podcast of Brief History of Power. It's been going on for a while. still not on video, so that's why my video is, you know, n no bueno today. But Brief History of Power comes out twice a week. And I also am writing commentary, especially for young and for new Christians, called a family bible commentary. And that that comes out from Ed Cruchum. we'll be coming out with a volume on the old testament histories around Christmas time this year. Zach: Is that how you say it? I'd cr I always say cruisome. Adam: That's how I say it. whatever. You know, I mean it's it's Latin, so we're making it up Yeah, it's from yeah, to the cross Zach: It's from the cr it's from the word yeah, crux, right? Cru the cross, yeah. Adam: is what it means. So it's from to the cross books at Crucium Books. Yep. Yep. Zach: Okay. So so you guys are making it up. We're I'm making it up. Everybody's just making it up. We gotta all fake it till we make it. So well awesome, Adam. blessings for you and your ministry. And Adam: Yeah That's right. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Zach: I am you know, we're well this will come out later, but yeah, I hope that my Browns whoop up on your Steelers. and we'll see. We'll see what happens. So all right, dude. Take care. Adam: Yeah, I wish you all the best. Thank you. Yeah, bye now. Zach: Hey, major thanks to Adam for coming onto the podcast. And at least after the first game, Cleveland Browns beat Pittsburgh Steelers. The second one already happened. I'm not sure what the outcome will be, but let it be for my Cleveland Browns. But hey, thanks, Adam, for coming onto the podcast today. Hey, if you're not already subscribed to the Red Letter Disciple podcast, please do that. Please also, if this conversation, if you made it this far, you're awesome, you're loyal. Would you do me a favor and leave a five-star review on Apple Podcast? And if you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe for more. We're gonna have another great conversation next week. Have a great week. God bless you.