Mining Indaba: Community Voices | What Partnership Really Means for Mining Communities ၏ စာသားမှတ်တမ်းအပြည့်အစုံ

00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:10.800 So I've always been involved in various community initiatives from really a young age until now, because to me, what is really key and central is that I need to be the change that I want to see in my community. 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:23.680 And secondly, especially when I was a bit older, what really shaped uh what I do today, if you notice there's uh a common denominator there as well, and that denominator is uh data-driven engagements. 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:31.120 Because I realize that sometimes we tend to get emotional about most of these things that we are facing in community, we tend to be very emotional about them. 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:35.040 They are very emotional because they affect our day-to-day lives. 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:53.920 But being emotional about them without providing data and credible evidence of their existence, I know that uh it might sound somehow upset that I need to prove that I'm suffering, I need to prove that the air is polluted, I need to prove that the water that I'm drinking has been polluted by mining companies, but that's how it is. 00:06:53.920 --> 00:07:03.519 If you do not find ways, you know, to pursue data-driven engagements, you end up sounding like someone who's just making unnecessary noise. 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:07.199 You end up sound sounding like someone who's pushing a certain agenda. 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:13.360 So you realize that central to most of my work is pursuing data-driven engagements. 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:20.480 In all that we do, there has to be data and evidence that drives the engagements that we are having. 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:27.680 So that's what led uh to me uh founding my own research organization that I lead with other young people in Wange. 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:38.000 And uh we are using various uh you know research tools to gather data that can drive policy conversations, that can drive decision-making conversations. 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:47.199 At Human Rights Measurement Initiative, I'm also leading uh work uh whose uh work that is really anchored around uh measuring. 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:49.040 There's a lot to unpack then. 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:54.319 I'm gonna try and unpack some of those topics uh during our talk, especially on the data-driven. 00:07:54.319 --> 00:08:06.000 But I was very taken by the be the change you want to be, because I hear there that you're taking responsibility um for that change rather than waiting for it to happen, um, happen to you. 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:10.000 And that really kind of talks to your activist roots, I guess. 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:29.759 Um you mentioned, you know, that um I guess your realization that things aren't as they should be came from your experience living or growing up in a mining town in Hwange, which I visited by the way, probably back back in 1995 or 1996 as part of my postdoc studies. 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:37.440 Could you tell us a little bit about uh kind of draw

a picture for our listeners about what is happening what has happened in Hwangi historically? 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.759 I believe there was an influx of Chinese mining companies in the area at one stage. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:47.279 Did you see that they brought the jobs and the prosperity that you were hoping for? 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:52.480 What is the situation um now and what were the community expecting? 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:54.639 Yeah, that's a very important question. 00:08:54.639 --> 00:09:05.039 And if you visited, if you last visited Hwange in 1995, if you were to visit again, you'll be very shocked at how uh things have turned out to be. 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:15.039 Uh, because of course, uh I wasn't born in that era, but there are a lot of illustrations that are off there are of magazines that we grew up uh reading. 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:28.879 And we're also wondering how things turned out to be how they were when we were growing up and how they are right now compared to the you know pre-independence and uh early uh independence, yes, the early the 80s and the 90s. 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:41.840 Uh, because back then mining was run by uh Wange Collar Company, uh, which was the major or the mostly for for most of the time, it was the only company that was mining in Wange. 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:49.600 And uh maybe due to how it was run from its days being uh you know by the the colonial government. 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:55.360 But uh in the early 2000s, things uh took uh you know a drastic change. 00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:02.159 The major company, the Hwange Colliery Company, uh started uh you know going on a downward spiral. 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:09.600 Uh things were getting out of control, uh there was rampant corruption and you know, nepotism and so on. 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:12.159 So most of the things were starting to get run down. 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:16.960 Unfortunately, that coins, uh, those were the years when we're also crying up. 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:30.000 After a while of things not really going as people were expecting with the major mining company on a downward spiral, then began the talks of uh the Chinese coming in to invest. 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:37.519 And uh for most of us, we thought that this might be an opportunity for our town to be restored to its former glory. 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:43.200 For those that were older than us, you know, they were telling us stories about how things were. 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:47.440 But unfortunately, that was not uh the reality. 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:56.799 You know, when we hear about foreign investment, you you always link it to development and improvements in quality of life. 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:03.360 But now that I'm looking back, I actually think that we might have gotten the almost opposite of that. 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:10.879 We are mostly experiencing severe environmental degradation and very, very, very, very limited uh local benefit. 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:13.120 We can take, for instance, jobs. 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:26.480 You know, when uh uh one of the major promises that were being sold to us as the community was that we are going to get jobs, you know, we are going to see most young people being absorbed into the workforce. 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:39.679 That's a message of hope, especially in a country where unemployment is very high and uh, you know, quality of life is uh is low, people are living 60% of the population is living below the poverty timeline. 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:47.200 So that was uh a you know a promise of hope, a message of hope that uh young people are going to be absorbed into the labor force. 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:53.360 We are going to see a lot of Chinese mining companies coming in to mine and to process coal. 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:59.279 Yes, the jobs were there, but they were not the kind of quality jobs that most of us hoped for. 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:06.720 Because even unto this day, most of the locals are had only as uh manual laborers and mostly on a casual basis. 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:13.759 Most of them are doing skilled work, but they are being paid as general laborers. 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:19.919 Mining has really turned to a case for our communities. 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:28.159 Our roads are in a worse state than they were maybe probably 10 to 15 years ago before the influx of Chinese mining companies. 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:35.759 Uh the air pollution is in is in it's just in a state that we cannot even comprehend. 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.360 Most of our water bodies are polluted. 00:12:39.360 --> 00:13:01.759 And uh Wang yet uh a unique uh setup because apart from people working in mines, most people survived in uh agriculture and those have been uh impacted because those agricultural activities carried the community through most of the hard years when uh the major uh mining company was on a cannot spiral. 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:06.320 So most people's livelihoods were really anchored on those agricultural activities. 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:13.600 But now, with most of the water bodies polluted, those activities are no longer as protective as they were. 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:27.279 So those are some of the impacts or those are some of the benefits that we have managed to reap as a community as compared to what uh we had really hoped for, and uh, it's really set and uh and unfortunate. 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:37.200 At some point, actually, not just some point, right now, mining is even happening closer to residential areas, mining is happening closer to even schools. 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:44.240 There's uh a mine, there's an active mine right now that is only a stone, a stone throw away from a primary school. 00:13:44.240 --> 00:14:04.320 And uh at some point, learners were being asked to leave the school during learning hours to go home to allow the company to carry out its blasting exercises, which I believe that uh it

is uh so much unfair, especially for a community that uh has been so disadvantaged for a very long time. 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.080 Thank you for that um graphic description. 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:21.279 It sounds like a case of resource curse, which is something that you brought up in the video that you submitted for your application for the um award, which you uh rightly won. 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:38.240 And your description then of the magazines that you read of the town that you were well, I guess framed or um was inspiration for some of your expectations for what foreign investment might bring, talks to the dependency that is at the root of the resource curse. 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:45.200 That in those days it was probably a mining town and everything, the swimming pools included, were controlled by the mine. 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:56.159 But nowadays the um the opportunities for jobs is less as companies become more automated, skilled workers come from overseas. 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:00.000 How do you benefit from this when those jobs aren't there? 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:07.679 What do you expect from the mining companies or the government in terms of uh development within the town? 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.360 That's uh a very, very, very important question. 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:20.000 I think number one, uh mining companies should be able to plow back into the communities they are operating in. 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:38.000 It is said that uh in Zimbabwe we do not have a corporate social responsibility legislation or an instrument that uh legislates, governs uh you know, corporate social responsibility, because it's something that we have also been advocating for. 00:15:38.000 --> 00:16:02.399 We have seen that uh maybe our advocacy might be paying off because the new proposed uh mines and minerals bill that is currently uh in the process, that is going to be an act of parliament, has got some sections that uh speak into corporate social uh responsibility, although not in the way that we would have liked uh to see them being framed. 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:13.679 Uh, because we we strongly believe that uh companies must have a certain percentage of their profits that uh they plow back into the community areas. 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:22.480 Number two, we expect uh these companies to ensure that uh they rehabilitate the environment. 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:36.320 And uh they also operate within uh responsible mining standards that uh you know uh that are have been uh you know prescribed both nationally, regionally, and uh internationally. 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:55.120 There are so many instruments that have been developed over the years that uh really try to shape how mining companies can operate in a more responsible way, ensuring that uh the environmental harm is minimal, uh the health harm to the community is also minimal. 00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:09.039 So those are some of the expectations that uh we uh that we have as a community, and of course, rehabilitation of uh of public infrastructure, most of which is destroyed by their existence in these communities. 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:20.000 You know, we're talking about roads and other uh public infrastructure that they can simply repent and ensure that uh they are in uh uh in a good state. 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:31.599 But above that, we we also expect locals to be involved in the entire mineral value chain, not just in employment, but uh in the value chain itself. 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:46.400 We expect you know companies to try and uh and work with uh local innovators, and of course, we expect them to uh you know to share some of their technologies. 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:50.480 You know, there's been a talk of uh technology transfer. 00:17:50.480 --> 00:18:03.279 We expect to see that uh happening and also the reskilling of the already existing uh skilled uh workforce to ensure that uh the workforce is also not uh left out. 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:13.119 Because uh right now mining is at uh a critical uh stage because uh we are we are also seeing uh talks around uh just uh transition. 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:20.559 At the core of uh just transition, uh just transition conversations is the transitioning of the workforce. 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:23.440 We cannot transition the economy alone. 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:30.480 We also need to transition the workforce as well to ensure that uh the workforce is able to continue. 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:35.119 You made a good point there about just transition, of course. 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:50.319 Just transition or transition in Western Europe and the USA, Northern Hemisphere is more about transitioning away from um hydrocarbons and um fuels like coal or coal in particular. 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:58.640 And you also mentioned that mining is now at a critical stage, and just spinning off that term, critical minerals. 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:03.200 Do you believe that for Zimbabwe coal is a critical mineral? 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:24.640 We talk about critical minerals a lot as what is needed for the energy transition, but so for Zimbabwe, where there is a dependency on coal for energy generation and also a need for mining to develop more jobs and opportunities for a growing population, should Zimbabwe consider coal to be critical? 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:32.720 I personally believe that uh the term critical can mean different things depending on context. 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:42.720 Internationally, I'm a claim, I've been involved in uh climate uh activism myself, and uh such terms do really come up uh in most of our engagements. 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:55.039 I've been to COP, uh I followed engagements uh in negotiations around uh you know the just energy transition uh work program, the the just transition uh work program of the UNFCCC. 00:19:55.039 --> 00:20:04.720 Uh critical minerals get mentioned uh a lot, but I believe that uh the term can carry different meanings.

00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:16.720 Internationally, when we talk about critical minerals, we are necessarily talking about uh minerals that are essential for high-tech industries or green energy transition. 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:30.640 Uh these are uh minerals like your lithium, your cobalt, and uh other uh rare earths, uh which are also present in Africa, and some are also present in Zimbabwe. 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:35.440 So coal doesn't really fit that uh definition of a critical mineral. 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:40.960 In fact, coal is often seen as a problem mineral in the context of climate change. 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:46.400 So uh it's it's more of uh you know the problematic mineral that needs to be phased out. 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:58.480 But however, from uh Zimbabwe's domestic policy standpoint, coal has always been critical or has always been considered critical for our energy needs and our economy. 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:02.640 Our government still regards coal as strategically important. 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:13.039 And uh in our mines and minerals bill, our new uh legislation that is going to govern uh mines and mineral uh resources, coal is central. 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:21.279 In plain terms, without coal, Zimbabwe slides would go off, at least uh with the current infrastructure that we have right now. 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:29.759 So without coal, there's no energy in Zimbabwe because most of our energy comes from uh thermal powered power stations. 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:34.559 So that makes coal critical in the sense of Zimbabwe. 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:49.920 The former mining minister was on record uh saying that uh coal is going to be central in driving our 12 billion mining industry, uh, which is part of our blueprint uh in Zimbabwe. 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:59.680 Uh and uh he explicitly said that coal is expected to be contributing about one billion of that uh 12 billion US dollar mining. 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:01.039 industry. 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:20.319 But from a personal perspective, I think that in as much as coal it might be a critical might be critical to Zimbabwe today, this also paints a very troubling future for our nation, particularly for us young people who are the future of this nation. 00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:51.759 Because the trajectory at which the world is moving in clearly shows that in not so many in not so many years the coal will have to be phased out you know to embrace you know the new way of uh of living you know to embrace the transitioning especially for communities like Wange where I currently stay where everything the entire economy of this town is anchored on coal. 00:22:51.759 --> 00:24:01.119 So those are some of the conversations that we have been having as young people we're looking into into other clean coal technologies we're looking into uh the cracking of coal to produce uh hydrogen and I think interestingly Zimbabwe has got uh also deposits of lithium which I believe that uh we should

also be paying more attention uh to that so yeah I think the term critical raises uh a lot of uh conversations because we also find ourselves asking questions like critical for who and uh how can we be part of these uh conversations as young people yeah the dilemma around coal and energy production really gets the heart of sustainable development I think which is trade-offs and how we manage those trade-offs and reduce the trade-offs and there's a dependency on coal in Hwange and in Zimbabwe generally which I think emphasizes even more the imperative to ensure that the wealth that that generates is distributed appropriately and reinvested into the communities and the economy and into renewable energy. 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:15.519 I'd like to turn now to the um I'll say taken by the comment that you made in your opening remarks around evidence science and um the power that you can use to advocate for your communities. 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:26.799 Tell us a little bit about how you use that and how far you've been able to take the evidence that you've generated to address or alter influence policymakers. 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:36.799 And you know I'm thinking here that evidence is important because it implies a kind of a factual evidence base. 00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:48.559 But in the world now you know what were truisms don't seem to be anymore and things like fake news make us doubt some of the evidence that we see in front of us. 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:58.000 So enlighten us about how you're going around generating the evidence and using the data and inferencing policy thank you so much. 00:24:58.160 --> 00:33:58.960 I think uh evidence or data is uh very very very important uh in our struggle because it turns our lived realities our lived experiences into undeniable facts that uh policymakers and uh companies can't really easily ignore coming from a community perspective you know we can protest we can tell stories in as much as those stories might be powerful but if we cannot back them up with the hard evidence collected uh in proven scientific methods or empirical methods it become harder for us to effect any change I think like I said earlier on we have tried you know uh I've seen uh a lot of uh activism uh you know around coal mining activism around pollution and most of it didn't really yield any results mostly because it could be dismissed it could be easily dismissed because it was not backed by evidence which really led to uh myself and other young people and other you know activists in Wange getting really involved in finding ways we can gather data uh within uh our communities to ensure that uh we don't just tell our stories but we can also uh pack them up using uh data that cannot uh that one cannot really deny at times it becomes costly and uh most of us uh particularly if you are coming from a a a community based organization uh point of view you don't really have a huge budget for you to carry out uh empirical uh studies you know

for you because it uh it costs a lot of money especially if you are talking about uh studies that involve uh maybe uh testing of of soil samples testing of water samples deploying uh sensors to monitor air quality that uh might cost a lot of money so that has always been our struggle because I remember at some point uh there was an outcry from uh a community that depends on one of the most polluted rivers in Wange that was back in the day uh there's a river it's called river it was on the news uh for uh for a number of years because communities were reporting you know uh stories of how the polluted water has affected their livelihoods the polluted water has uh affected their lives uh livestock but it became hard for us to advocate around that issue because when we tried to push for advocates around that issue uh the government produced uh their data uh they just left uh uh data on our faces to say you are saying that uh the river is polluted but we have carried out uh our own uh you know water quality testing and uh this these are the results and there was no way we we could argue with the results without providing uh maybe counter results you know counter data so that conversation was just shut down like that but everyone could see that uh the water is polluted uh you know the villagers were attesting to that but there was nothing that we could do uh as uh as as advocates as activists so that really showed that without data we cannot really progress uh any conversation when i traveled to the United States on a fellowship I was privileged enough to to be exposed uh to how we can leverage on remote sensing as uh a cheaper alternative to gather data and present uh and tell our stories uh better uh that program really uh helped how I see things but not only does data serve in us uh pursuing advocacy from that standpoint it also informs us and also because I want to quote your point on uh on uh disinformation and uh misinformation there was uh a cry about uh mining that was happening uh within the Wanga National Park uh someone just uh reported you know what guys there's mining that's that is happening in uh uh in the Hwange National Park and that has been a major driver of wildlife coming or encroaching into residential areas particularly elephants so we just ran with that story without ourselves having to you know to verify it and then uh again uh the government and the and the mine itself uh produced uh maps that showed that they were not mining in the Hwange National Park and that really discredited uh the critical mass we're seen as people were just that trying to you know were just trying to derail uh mining activities we're seen as sponsored agents that are spreading lies and that really uh you know hit the movement really hard to an extent that everything that we said after that could not really be taken uh seriously so it was that was also an an important push factor for me to say from now on we cannot just uh you know share stories without

having to pick them up with data which is why when we're advocating uh for mining uh in the Hwange National Park in 2024 when we're writing the petition we're making sure that the petition is grounded in facts the we we did the satellite imagery we identified the area we're ensuring that we are providing our own alternative maps that show that uh the mining is actually encroaching uh into a protected area which is why even the mining affairs point in Zimbabwe had to listen to us and uh that project was stalled so that really proves that uh data can be a critical tool in driving uh advocacy so over the years we've we uh we've we've been trying to sharpen our skills uh we've also been trying to explore other ways we can uh rely on other low-cost um you know uh research methodologies uh that can help us tell our stories better uh we are currently working towards uh deploying an application that combines uh a basic camera of uh a cell phone and satellite imagery to monitor to monitor uh water quality because that has been uh a lacking uh uh link in our in our in our advocacy in terms of air quality land decretation uh we've produced uh reports that have been taken seriously our air quality uh report really uh really sparked a conversation around the the amendment of the pneumoconosis act uh which i can uh say right now that the pneumoconosis act uh was repealed uh the 1997 pneumo uh conosis act has been repealed and uh is being uh reintegrated uh into another act of parliament that uh we think that uh most probably our work uh particularly our data has been able to really uh influence that uh policy conversation so we are now working towards uh influencing such policy conversations or such critical conversations around also water quality monitoring so yeah data has really been uh critical and uh one thing that uh we also do lastly uh as i as i wrap up on this one one thing that we relate to is to ensure that uh we are really transparent on the methodologies that uh we use because we want everyone to be able to to see where we are coming from that we didn't just arrive at some result that we just pulled out of out of some magic bag but these are really credible uh methodologies uh proven scientific methodologies that uh anyone can peer review and uh also as certain that uh our results or our data contains uh a high degree of uh accuracy that's great to hear those um those success stories and evidence of the importance of evidence importance of data you know but even if we do have this data even if you do have this data and you're able to get and to publicize it it seems to me that people can still counter that with their own data and analysis and you know going to the theme of the indaba this year is strong together progress through partnerships do you feel that in this endeavor to get to gather the data and present it appropriately that you would benefit from having partnerships people who can endorse can augment the data um can back it up substantially so that you can be stronger? 00:33:58.960 --> 00:37:52.639 Absolutely absolutely so previously before I founded uh the Center for Environmental uh uh and corporate accountability research I was part of uh another uh institution and uh one lesson that I drew from that was that uh confrontational advocacy does not yield results because if you confront someone in uh in authority they can choose not to listen to you and there's nothing that you can do apart from continuing uh making noise so when I founded uh my my organization it was really premised on uh having uh partnerships and working relationships with those in government for example our air quality report as damning as it was we managed to engage the environmental management uh agency in Zimbabwe our local office uh we had an engagement with them and uh we managed to also compare because they also conduct uh these uh studies as well uh especially on uh air quality they conduct their own studies that they might also sometimes choose not to share with the public based on their internal policies but we managed to uh compare our data to see that uh our data was actually not so far from what they'd uh also gathered and uh they also managed to sort of endorse we have had them in our meetings uh we've had them uh in our in our different forums we make it a point that uh we cannot have a conversation without having those in authority being uh in that temple but we have managed to do this only at uh a local level so we've managed to build a really healthy relationship because we got to understand or I got to understand that uh if you confront someone they they get into a defensive mode and uh usually if someone in authority is in a defensive mode the one who loses is the is the is the community member or the community itself but if you engage if you're showing that you are not coming to confront this is not a witch hunt but you're coming to to also engage have a healthy working relationship uh that also helps and I strongly believe that uh much of the success that uh we have enjoyed has always been uh due to the fact that uh our local uh environmental uh uh environmental management agent's office uh has got a healthy working relationship with us our local authority has got a healthy working relationship with us both at a personal level at institutional level so they really value the information that uh we also bring to the table and uh sometimes they escalate it further and uh they also endorse it making it uh really carry some weight uh in the corridors of power so partnerships are really are really important and uh we cannot be stronger unless we are we are working together uh our cry for uh for inclusivity must not only be centered on us being included uh in uh in in discussions uh you know that matter but also should should also uh be seen in us showing the willingness to engage not uh to confront so those are some of the lessons that I've had uh uh over the years that's great and very sadly I think I'm gonna have to bring the conversation to um an end but you've given me and I'm sure our listeners a lot to think about from your inspirational stories and your collaborative approach to making things better for mining mining communities and I hope that this award will help you meet and create more partnerships in Cape Town at the Indaba and the Mining Indaba conference in February. 00:37:53.199 --> 00:38:17.679 So it leaves me really just to thank you once again thank our speaker Nkosi Sibanda for joining us today and to our listeners please check out the rest of this special series of Mining Indaba podcasts on the TDI sustainability suits and boots podcast channel I look forward to seeing you all at the event in February where you can hear more from Nkosi and other Community Voices 2026 winners. 00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:21.599 I'm Assheton Carter and thank you for listening