Same Magic, Different Work ၏ စာသားမှတ်တမ်းအပြည့်အစုံ

painted with nail 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:37.960 polish, not the proper paint at all. There you 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:41.840 go. At least it's gonna last longer than everybody 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:47.319 else's. I think so. Yeah. And it has a certain 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:50.879 gloss about it too, that regular pain won't have. 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:55.939 Yeah. Maybe I started a new trend. There you 00:02:55.939 --> 00:03:04.020 go. Yeah. Yeah, so my name's Kim and I'm a mother 00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:09.280 of two very grown boys. So they're men and they've 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.860 married with two kids, now three. So yeah, I 00:03:13.860 --> 00:03:18.539 got three grandsons and very happy. Just had 00:03:18.539 --> 00:03:22.659 my, well, I didn't have it, thank God, but my 00:03:22.659 --> 00:03:25.800 daughter -in -law just had the third grandson. 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:31.240 So we've had like first Christmases three years 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:35.520 in a row. So my painting will be on a Christmas 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:42.860 bauble, you know. First Christmas. So that's 00:03:42.860 --> 00:03:46.360 going to be my painting exercise for the year, 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:49.939 I think. That's beautiful. I love that. Thank 00:03:49.939 --> 00:03:56.229 you for sharing. I know that you're already very 00:03:56.229 --> 00:03:59.189 busy. I've been trying to get a hold of you to 00:03:59.189 --> 00:04:02.870 speak to you for so long. And to now know that 00:04:02.870 --> 00:04:06.889 you're also a grandmother of three just blows 00:04:06.889 --> 00:04:10.889 my mind. You are a superwoman. Yeah, I think 00:04:10.889 --> 00:04:13.389 all mothers are though, you know, at least to 00:04:13.389 --> 00:04:17.810 their kids. For sure. So on Kaleidoscope, we 00:04:17.810 --> 00:04:21.170 like to start off just to warm things up a little 00:04:21.170 --> 00:04:26.420 bit with... with a quick question for the other 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:29.879 two participants in the podcast to answer. I 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:32.399 would like to open the floor to see if either 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:34.300 of you have a question you would like to start 00:04:34.300 --> 00:04:37.680 with, and then we'll go kind of on the screen, 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:41.360 just let's say counterclockwise today. Counterclockwise? 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:44.839 What? Who does that put first? All of our screens 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:47.139 have a different number. Right now the floor 00:04:47.139 --> 00:04:50.759 is open. Whoever wants to go first. Wait! Kim, 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:55.779 was that mug just a Santa Claus mug? No, no. 00:04:56.019 --> 00:04:58.579 The rest of my house will be though, very soon. 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:01.660 We're going to start, especially for the kiddies, 00:05:02.100 --> 00:05:05.579 we're going to start decorating our house until 00:05:05.579 --> 00:05:12.110 it looks like a shopping mall has exploded. My 00:05:12.110 --> 00:05:14.949 mother comes in and she goes, it's too much, 00:05:15.069 --> 00:05:17.949 it's too much. I'm like, well, I don't think 00:05:17.949 --> 00:05:21.189 so. Can't have too much glitter, too much Santa, 00:05:21.329 --> 00:05:25.250 too much presents. But yeah, my family have different 00:05:25.250 --> 00:05:28.769 views. Like my son, he says to me, mom, you can't 00:05:28.769 --> 00:05:32.550 now buy the kids like loads and loads of presents. 00:05:33.170 --> 00:05:37.550 And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, first plan is dashed. 00:05:37.589 --> 00:05:40.920 So. I said to him, okay, no problem. I went out 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.839 and I bought a keyboard and brought it back, 00:05:43.899 --> 00:05:47.019 give it to the kid. And I said, okay, this is 00:05:47.019 --> 00:05:50.420 not a Christmas present. I'm buying him an everyday 00:05:50.420 --> 00:05:54.620 present. So that way I can still buy my presents 00:05:54.620 --> 00:05:56.699 for the kids. You're lucky to have you. That's 00:05:56.699 --> 00:06:03.519 good. Man, I miss, I miss insane like holiday 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:08.639 Christmasy decoration, whatever. I'll tell you 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:10.899 both. I, for the first time ever, I've been in 00:06:10.899 --> 00:06:14.579 China for 12 years. And this is, I just yesterday, 00:06:14.699 --> 00:06:17.819 and this is why today I'm a little tired. I was 00:06:17.819 --> 00:06:20.579 up late. I put up a tree for the first time ever 00:06:20.579 --> 00:06:24.579 and decorated it. Yes, thank you. Took a lot 00:06:24.579 --> 00:06:28.160 of courage. You'll see it Ruby next time you 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:30.660 come over. I got a full blown tree, but now I'm 00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:33.230 a little worried I've opened. Some kind of box 00:06:33.230 --> 00:06:35.910 because I want to get more decorations. I don't 00:06:35.910 --> 00:06:37.329 know. I don't know if it's a good idea I don't 00:06:37.329 --> 00:06:39.829 want my apartment. I would love my apartment 00:06:39.829 --> 00:06:42.170 full of decorations, but also at the same time. 00:06:43.290 --> 00:06:45.209 I Don't know. Maybe it's too much. I need to 00:06:45.209 --> 00:06:52.490 finesse it. Where? Not for me. I mean I Love 00:06:52.490 --> 00:06:56.430 decorations. I hate cleaning them up and my contribution 00:06:56.430 --> 00:07:00.149 to Christmas this year will be Secret Santa gifts 00:07:00.149 --> 00:07:04.779 and teaching my kids the Charleston Swing. Not 00:07:04.779 --> 00:07:08.160 by my kids, I mean my students. We're doing students. 00:07:09.019 --> 00:07:12.879 Jingle Bell Rock, but with the Charleston Swing 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:15.800 song. Dance. Very nice. I hope you're going to 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:21.379 post a video of this. Well, because of like child 00:07:21.379 --> 00:07:24.459 protection laws, I can share it individually. 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:29.600 Yeah, but not online. Well, it sounds very good. 00:07:29.620 --> 00:07:33.220 It sounds lots of fun. That's nice.

Yeah, if 00:07:33.220 --> 00:07:35.540 it's good enough, it will go through on the schools 00:07:35.540 --> 00:07:38.319 like public one and then from there I will be 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:42.600 able to share it. Yeah, beautiful. Well, that's 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.100 lovely. No decorating though, Ruby? No decorations. 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:51.680 No decorating. No. All right. Not for me. Fair. 00:07:53.300 --> 00:07:57.839 Anyway. Was that your quick fire question? Mine? 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:00.759 Yeah. Well, I guess it could be. No, actually, 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:02.420 I saw the mug, and then I just thought Santa 00:08:02.420 --> 00:08:03.939 and Christmas. But now I'm curious, Kim, are 00:08:03.939 --> 00:08:06.300 you a purveyor of mugs like I am? I have many 00:08:06.300 --> 00:08:11.959 novelty mugs. Yes. I love mugs. That's my other 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:14.560 addiction. Oh, there you go. Kindred's here. 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:17.500 I've now been banned. My family have told me, 00:08:17.699 --> 00:08:21.420 that's it, Ma, no more coffee mugs. Really? Do 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:25.139 you have a favorite? This is my favorite. I have 00:08:25.139 --> 00:08:29.930 it all the time. Oh, nice. I'm going with this 00:08:29.930 --> 00:08:34.470 gimmick, but yeah, it is my favorite. Yeah. No, 00:08:35.149 --> 00:08:42.070 I don't. I don't. I just buy sort of, I guess 00:08:42.070 --> 00:08:46.029 it's gimmicky. So maybe Ray, you can look down 00:08:46.029 --> 00:08:50.490 on me. Not at all. Look what I have. That's gimmicky. 00:08:51.169 --> 00:08:53.870 That's the most gimmicky thing anybody can buy. 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:58.820 Their own name. I can't see it. Yeah. Wait, what? 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:03.100 Yeah. Yeah, probably. I have a decoration in 00:09:03.100 --> 00:09:06.419 my house that is my own name. That's, it doesn't 00:09:06.419 --> 00:09:10.419 get more gimmicky than that. Okay. Okay. No, 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:14.519 no. My, my family get mugs. Like if it's Easter, 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.919 they get... Easter mugs. If it's Christmas, they'll 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:20.519 get Christmas. And of course, mom and dad have 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:23.919 to get like the best mom or best dad. That's 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.059 great. Yeah. So everybody gets their own sort 00:09:27.059 --> 00:09:33.000 of special ones. My one son, he's a Marvel addict. 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:39.700 So anything superhero on a mug goes to him. But 00:09:39.700 --> 00:09:44.470 everybody's now mugged out. So yeah, so now we'll 00:09:44.470 --> 00:09:48.110 have to think of something different. I do love 00:09:48.110 --> 00:09:52.870 a good mug. I love buying mug sets, pairs that 00:09:52.870 --> 00:09:55.450 are interesting. Like I have this set from Starbucks 00:09:55.450 --> 00:09:59.370 that has like dopamine and caffeine and serotonin 00:09:59.370 --> 00:10:02.629 on it. And one's black and one's white. Otherwise 00:10:02.629 --> 00:10:05.049 they're the same mug. But I've been banned from 00:10:05.049 --> 00:10:07.350 buying mugs. I'm not allowed to. Now we only 00:10:07.350 --> 00:10:10.470 have four mugs. I never knew this about you. 00:10:11.579 --> 00:10:15.000 Yeah, that's why I love your unicorn mug. Yeah, 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:16.860 but why didn't you ever tell me you have a bunch 00:10:16.860 --> 00:10:18.759 of novelty mugs? Even when we work together, 00:10:18.779 --> 00:10:22.240 I never saw you have mugs at your desk. Yeah, 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:25.960 performative minimalism. You're saying I'm performing. 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:29.139 Let me, okay, on the topic of mugs real quick. 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:32.600 I've started, whenever I go home, I've started 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.679 getting my mom mugs whenever I see them. So like 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.080 I do a lot of thrifting. Obviously I'll go to 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:40.159 bookstores and then there'll be a mug. But it 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:44.379 has to be a really like sac, what's the saccharine? 00:10:44.539 --> 00:10:48.899 Is that the word? Sweet. Like it always, I've 00:10:48.899 --> 00:10:51.480 been getting my mom every mug I see that's like 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.259 best mom, number one mom to a point where it 00:10:54.259 --> 00:10:57.200 just annoys her. Okay, that's sweet. But also 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.940 very cringey. It is, it's great. I'm doing it. 00:11:00.980 --> 00:11:03.460 It's been great. Yeah, well my mom's favorite 00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:06.059 mug is the one I got her for receiving tears. 00:11:06.350 --> 00:11:12.690 You know, it's got a lovely lady on it and 70 00:11:12.690 --> 00:11:16.429 is fabulous or something. Yeah. So she, that's 00:11:16.429 --> 00:11:19.870 her favourite mug. So I'm glad. Shane, they said, 00:11:19.870 --> 00:11:23.009 cause they're busy moving to a retirement village 00:11:23.009 --> 00:11:26.750 now. And they said to me that I'm the only one 00:11:26.750 --> 00:11:30.429 who buys them all of these like sentimental things. 00:11:30.909 --> 00:11:34.429 So yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad I'm a soppy thing 00:11:34.429 --> 00:11:37.590 like that. Yeah. I think it's good too. I'll 00:11:37.590 --> 00:11:39.649 keep buying my mom's mugs even if she gets annoyed. 00:11:43.590 --> 00:11:46.269 The other thing that I collect that is kind of 00:11:46.269 --> 00:11:50.250 strange is odd dictionaries. Like normal dictionaries, 00:11:50.429 --> 00:11:54.710 dictionaries that are very different. Not words. 00:11:55.169 --> 00:11:59.470 In what way? No, they are words. For example, 00:11:59.690 --> 00:12:03.100 there's this really old bookshop in... England 00:12:03.100 --> 00:12:06.039 called Foyle's Bookstore, I think. It's this 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:09.799 guy, Christopher Foyle, who is a logophile, a 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:13.960 lover of words, and he has been going through 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:16.779 the English language for many years in

his bookstore, 00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:21.899 and he curated two books called Foyle's Fallavory. 00:12:22.019 --> 00:12:24.820 Fallavory is a collection of strange and wonderful 00:12:24.820 --> 00:12:28.720 words. into these two books. And they're just 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.480 like the most rarely used books in the English 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:34.039 language. They are gorgeous. And then I have 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:37.620 the big book of Talking Dirty, which is a collection 00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:43.519 of historical slurs. I'm into it. Yeah, so tell 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.340 us something interesting then in words. What's 00:12:46.340 --> 00:12:49.620 your interesting words? What's the most interesting 00:12:49.620 --> 00:12:51.960 slur in the world, Ruby? You know, I don't remember 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:55.710 any of them now. I'm drawing a total blank. Well, 00:12:55.710 --> 00:13:02.990 how about this? For an old word for lesbian was 00:13:02.990 --> 00:13:07.529 companion. So if two ladies lived together, nobody 00:13:07.529 --> 00:13:10.389 said that they were, you know, those terrible 00:13:10.389 --> 00:13:14.070 words. It was, this is companion. And everybody 00:13:14.070 --> 00:13:16.809 would be like, their eyes would be, oh, she has 00:13:16.809 --> 00:13:21.409 a companion. Right. That's, that's, uh, is this 00:13:21.409 --> 00:13:25.539 before? or after the star tattoos. Oh lord, no, 00:13:25.580 --> 00:13:27.720 I'm sure it was way before the star tattoos. 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.100 I'm sure it's somewhere around like the twizz 00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:34.879 or something. What do you mean when you say that? 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:37.759 The star tattoos. What do you guys mean when 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:40.139 you say the star tattoos? Is there an inside 00:13:40.139 --> 00:13:43.480 joke you don't know about? No, it's not a joke. 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:49.980 Off you go, Ray. Okay, I might be wrong on the 00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:58.269 history here. The star tattoos come from American 00:13:58.269 --> 00:14:02.110 culture, bar culture, and lesbian women would 00:14:02.110 --> 00:14:04.750 tattoo a little star on the inside of their wrist 00:14:04.750 --> 00:14:08.370 that was easy to cover and it would mark them 00:14:08.370 --> 00:14:13.690 out. I think it's also etymologically where maybe 00:14:13.690 --> 00:14:16.370 gold star lesbians come from and a gold star 00:14:16.370 --> 00:14:19.850 lesbian is someone who has never had relations 00:14:19.850 --> 00:14:25.970 with a man. Learning something new every day. 00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:30.909 I do not know that. Well done. I'm curious if 00:14:30.909 --> 00:14:35.250 that's real fact or just like folk lore. Lesbians 00:14:35.250 --> 00:14:37.950 folk lore. Gold star lesbians are a thing. It's 00:14:37.950 --> 00:14:41.429 a point of pride. But I do think that kind of 00:14:41.429 --> 00:14:47.590 leans into potentially like a, it's a sub category 00:14:47.590 --> 00:14:51.419 of purity culture in a way. It sounds like it, 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:55.539 yeah. Yeah. Personally, not totally into it, 00:14:55.539 --> 00:15:00.799 but to each their own, yeah. Yeah. It sounds 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:04.519 like... Carry on, Kim, you go first. No, no, 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:08.539 I was just, I was just speculating. I had thought 00:15:08.539 --> 00:15:11.320 maybe it was something to do with, um, like the 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.240 Holocaust, you know, because of the Star of David 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:17.659 and how, like, the Jews and the gays were all 00:15:17.659 --> 00:15:21.509 like... executed together. So I thought maybe 00:15:21.509 --> 00:15:26.009 that's why the star was a thing. Yeah, yeah, 00:15:26.009 --> 00:15:31.269 yeah. And the pink triangle. Yeah. Yeah. No, 00:15:31.730 --> 00:15:35.090 I think this is just a five -pointed star. It's 00:15:35.090 --> 00:15:38.590 not the star of David. I might be wrong. I'm 00:15:38.590 --> 00:15:45.779 not a lesbian. I'm a bisexual person. Okay. Um, 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.899 now I'm blushing. It sounds like we're about 00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:49.940 to touch on the meteor stuff of this podcast, 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.080 so I'll ask my quick -fire question quickly and 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:59.100 then we can share our... I'll take us away with 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:02.940 the first perspective. My question is, what is 00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:05.580 a hobby that you always wanted to try but never 00:16:05.580 --> 00:16:08.860 did? Small figurine making. You never wanted 00:16:08.860 --> 00:16:12.220 to try that. I introduced you to it today. No, 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:15.029 let me tell you real quick. Actually, actually, 00:16:15.269 --> 00:16:17.409 when I was young, I had a whole bunch of toys, 00:16:18.110 --> 00:16:20.269 like figurines, as most kids do, just garbage, 00:16:20.350 --> 00:16:22.029 because I had a big family, I had a lot of sisters, 00:16:22.169 --> 00:16:24.450 so there was a lot of junk. And there was a time 00:16:24.450 --> 00:16:27.970 when I got the idea from seeing some other artist, 00:16:27.970 --> 00:16:31.389 I guess, of dissecting the figurines and mismatching 00:16:31.389 --> 00:16:33.169 them and putting them all together in different 00:16:33.169 --> 00:16:36.759 ways. So, like, taking... a troll doll's head 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:39.460 and putting it on the body of, like, a velociraptor. 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:42.200 So I made up those weird art, and it really freaked 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:46.860 my mom out. And she... I had a lot. And she all 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:49.960 threw them all away. Because she thought something... 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:52.379 Well, I mean, she was concerned. I guess it had 00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:55.620 serial killer vibes. But that wasn't the case, 00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:00.240 so... Ever watch Toy Story? Because you're giving 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:01.980 antagonist vibes. Yeah,

it's like, you know, 00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:03.899 Toy Story. Yeah, you're right. But it wasn't 00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:06.630 that weird. I think... If you saw them, you know, 00:17:06.650 --> 00:17:08.930 they had more artistic merit. They're really 00:17:08.930 --> 00:17:12.930 creative. I really thought about them. Like the 00:17:12.930 --> 00:17:15.509 potato man, the potato man. You're like Mr. Potato 00:17:15.509 --> 00:17:20.250 Head, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, they were 00:17:20.250 --> 00:17:25.470 small. Okay. But, okay, so yeah, I did dabble 00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:27.990 in figurines when I was a child. I gotta say. 00:17:28.430 --> 00:17:31.930 Well, you sound exactly like my brother. He was 00:17:31.930 --> 00:17:35.089 like he was younger than me. So he literally 00:17:35.089 --> 00:17:39.450 broke everything so yeah, your your exploits 00:17:39.450 --> 00:17:45.150 are very sort of Nostalgic for me, I guess Yeah, 00:17:45.809 --> 00:17:50.529 and for me my one my thing is playing the violin 00:17:50.529 --> 00:17:55.940 I love the violin And I don't think it's in many 00:17:55.940 --> 00:18:00.319 songs today, but yeah, because I'm not exactly, 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.480 I am talking, I guess, about the operatic kind 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.480 of violin, but then you also get the really jazzy 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.720 kind of violin that was in songs like Shania 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:15.460 Twain had a lot of violins jumping around in 00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:20.799 the back, but you know, jazzy kind of fun violins. 00:18:21.430 --> 00:18:25.470 I'm trying to think of the song now because it 00:18:25.470 --> 00:18:28.509 was a formative song for me from Shania Twain. 00:18:28.750 --> 00:18:30.349 I know exactly the one you're talking about with 00:18:30.349 --> 00:18:32.829 the violin. Where they're playing violin, I think 00:18:32.829 --> 00:18:35.910 in the rain. It's like multiple... Yeah, yeah, 00:18:35.910 --> 00:18:38.049 something like that. So I've always been really 00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:40.710 impressed with people who can play violin and 00:18:40.710 --> 00:18:46.029 I've always thought, well, one day. We possibly 00:18:46.029 --> 00:18:48.710 will do that, but right now we're super busy. 00:18:48.849 --> 00:18:54.809 So that's not going to happen. Instead, I play 00:18:54.809 --> 00:18:59.450 keyboard and guitar. It's enough for me. Very 00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:03.230 cool. Luigi, what were you saying when you think 00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:05.670 of violins? When I think of the violin, there's 00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:09.950 one song. I think it's the violin. It's obviously 00:19:09.950 --> 00:19:13.049 classical music. I think it's called the Dance 00:19:13.049 --> 00:19:15.670 of Death or something like that. Not literally 00:19:15.670 --> 00:19:17.289 English, the Dance of Death. It has some other 00:19:17.289 --> 00:19:22.170 kind of weird name. Is it that one where it's 00:19:22.170 --> 00:19:25.150 the devil, the dancing, the dueling with the 00:19:25.150 --> 00:19:26.910 devil or something? Maybe that's it. And then 00:19:26.910 --> 00:19:31.289 it's got a fiddle that... Yes. Yeah, it's like 00:19:31.289 --> 00:19:35.630 a... You know, like a country song. You know 00:19:35.630 --> 00:19:40.289 that one? It's the dance macabre. That's the 00:19:40.289 --> 00:19:43.069 song. That's the song I think of. Okay. I don't 00:19:43.069 --> 00:19:47.069 know if there's violins in it. Okay. It's got 00:19:47.069 --> 00:19:48.700 it. It's got like a fiddle. That's what I think 00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:51.640 of when I think of violence. Anyway, okay, that's 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:53.519 a good answer. Yeah, something you wish you could 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.880 learn. Yeah. Really? I think once you hear it, 00:19:56.900 --> 00:19:58.619 you'll go, ah, yes, I know what song he's talking 00:19:58.619 --> 00:20:00.700 about. But then you'll say that there are no 00:20:00.700 --> 00:20:02.960 violence. We'll send it to you after. You will 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:09.759 see. Okay. Yeah, I also play guitar and keyboard. 00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:14.519 I guess it's an electric piano, but not so much 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:18.529 anymore. I got busy. I used to watch TV too and 00:20:18.529 --> 00:20:23.289 now it's always just online posting videos and 00:20:23.289 --> 00:20:26.970 looking for people to talk to. And I love it 00:20:26.970 --> 00:20:30.809 way more. I find this extremely fulfilling. And 00:20:30.809 --> 00:20:35.430 that kind of brings me to my perspective today. 00:20:35.809 --> 00:20:41.490 I want to talk about the challenges in life because 00:20:41.490 --> 00:20:45.750 that's so broad. There are things that I've always 00:20:45.750 --> 00:20:51.230 wanted. to do and am doing now, but they're not 00:20:51.230 --> 00:20:57.630 easy. I've said before that I accidentally became 00:20:57.630 --> 00:21:00.890 a teacher. Being a teacher kind of happened to 00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:05.130 me through the course of my life and for a long 00:21:05.130 --> 00:21:08.890 time I just kind of accepted that. Much in the 00:21:08.890 --> 00:21:11.990 same way that I accepted my assigned gender at 00:21:11.990 --> 00:21:16.559 birth and in many ways Resilience came through 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:20.380 from staying alive, staying subscribed to this 00:21:20.380 --> 00:21:23.359 thing that we call life and not electing to unsubscribe. 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.920 But now also all of those skills kind of helped 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:34.619 me to keep on doing this and not get tired and 00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:38.779 do crazy things like running two jobs. And now 00:21:38.779 --> 00:21:42.359 just last night I posted the first episode of 00:21:42.589 --> 00:21:49.329 a new second podcast. And yeah, I'm cheating 00:21:49.329 --> 00:21:53.109 on you, Louis. You didn't even tell me. It's 00:21:53.109 --> 00:21:56.250 called Freaky Friday with Ray and Bun. It's a

00:21:56.250 --> 00:21:59.809 drive -along. I'll tell you about it. Yeah, you're 00:21:59.809 --> 00:22:03.589 gonna have to. Jeez. So multiple social media 00:22:03.589 --> 00:22:07.190 accounts running all by myself and I... I just 00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:09.690 think that basically what I'm trying to get to 00:22:09.690 --> 00:22:14.210 is the perspective. We often let life hold us 00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:17.410 back because we are afraid to do the things that 00:22:17.410 --> 00:22:21.250 are hard. I feel like we talked about this. It 00:22:21.250 --> 00:22:25.710 seems so familiar. It's universal. Yeah, I guess 00:22:25.710 --> 00:22:33.609 that's why. I agree 110%. It is certainly hard 00:22:33.609 --> 00:22:35.849 to... I was talking about this with someone else 00:22:35.849 --> 00:22:37.990 today, actually. Are we really doing the things 00:22:37.990 --> 00:22:39.910 we really want to do? And if we think we're doing 00:22:39.910 --> 00:22:42.170 the things we really want to do, are those really 00:22:42.170 --> 00:22:44.289 our thoughts? Or is there like, that's the problem 00:22:44.289 --> 00:22:48.549 with ideology. It's the thing, we think we know 00:22:48.549 --> 00:22:51.450 what we're doing, but really there are other 00:22:51.450 --> 00:22:54.250 factors really pushing us or influencing us. 00:22:54.609 --> 00:22:57.049 You know, like the tip of the iceberg and everything 00:22:57.049 --> 00:23:01.509 underneath. So, yeah. I mean, do you mind doing 00:23:01.509 --> 00:23:04.250 what I want to do? I would say by default, yes. 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:06.880 But like you, Ruby, I didn't exactly set out 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.740 to do this. I did, when I was young, I wanted 00:23:08.740 --> 00:23:11.680 to teach in a university setting. And then it 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:14.700 transformed into me teaching in an international 00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:18.720 school, K to 12 setting. So a lot of that was 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:20.960 just because of where I was. And obviously other 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:25.140 factors, like making a good wage. Yeah. I lost 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:27.279 my train of thought. I had something even more 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.640 important to say, but I'll leave the floor open 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:32.220 to you two. And then when it... comes back in 00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:34.579 my head, I'm going to interrupt. Yeah. Look, 00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:39.200 I think you're right though, Luigi. It is a case 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.819 of like, you know what, a lot of times we're 00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:45.720 pushed into either through circumstance or through 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.220 expectations of other people. We're pushed into 00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:53.019 a certain way. And sometimes if it fits for us, 00:23:53.019 --> 00:23:56.579 you know, we don't mind going along. Um, and 00:23:56.579 --> 00:24:01.380 yeah, I think, um, you know, yeah. Yeah, we all 00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:04.319 make decisions though for ourselves. And I think 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:08.339 for myself, at least it's been a case of, yes, 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.940 you know, I spent a lot of time, people pleasing, 00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:17.000 you know, even without realizing it. But, but 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.519 definitely, I mean, you want approval from your 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.940 parents. You want approval from your peers. You 00:24:22.940 --> 00:24:26.019 know what? I mean, I think that as well, that's 00:24:26.019 --> 00:24:32.259 a universal thing. So, um. So yeah, I think that 00:24:32.259 --> 00:24:35.420 if you're finding yourself in a place where, 00:24:35.619 --> 00:24:39.519 you know, you're not sort of happy or what have 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.500 you, I think you need to then do soul searching 00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:46.759 and find out why exactly because then you'll 00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:49.799 know, you know, and perhaps you'll know more 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:52.839 of your own self, you know, when you do a bit 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.019 of soul search and that, yeah, then you'll know 00:24:56.019 --> 00:24:58.809 more of your own self of what. What's going to 00:24:58.809 --> 00:25:03.730 make you happy and what's going to fulfill you 00:25:03.730 --> 00:25:08.890 more than perhaps we are. Kim, you've done some 00:25:08.890 --> 00:25:13.950 pretty incredible things in your life. My question 00:25:13.950 --> 00:25:17.509 is, do you think that now you're doing the things 00:25:17.509 --> 00:25:21.809 that you really want to do? Because for me, I 00:25:21.809 --> 00:25:27.049 feel a sense of responsibility, urgency, need. 00:25:28.850 --> 00:25:34.410 to have this podcast, not only to speak to people, 00:25:34.670 --> 00:25:38.910 but to also normalize my existence to other people 00:25:38.910 --> 00:25:41.930 and not just for me, for others as well. So am 00:25:41.930 --> 00:25:43.890 I doing the things that I really want to do? 00:25:44.069 --> 00:25:47.049 Yes, absolutely. I also feel a calling. My question 00:25:47.049 --> 00:25:51.289 is, is that the same for you? Yes. So very definitely 00:25:51.289 --> 00:25:53.869 that's where I started out. So a little bit of 00:25:53.869 --> 00:25:57.349 history. So I was married to a guy for 17 years, 00:25:57.569 --> 00:26:01.710 had two sons with him, and then we divorced. 00:26:01.769 --> 00:26:04.269 And after the divorce, that's when I started 00:26:04.269 --> 00:26:08.289 dating women. Then when I met somebody who was 00:26:08.289 --> 00:26:12.509 really amazing, who I've now been with for 21 00:26:12.509 --> 00:26:20.400 years. So yeah, so we committed. And yeah, so 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:25.000 I met this amazing woman and told my parents, 00:26:25.619 --> 00:26:28.579 and bear in mind by now I'm like, I don't know, 00:26:28.779 --> 00:26:32.400 40 or something plus, and I'm telling my parents, 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:35.940 and of course they're horrified. Yeah, no. Really?

00:26:36.099 --> 00:26:39.140 So they're like, but you were so normal. Why 00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:41.799 don't you just go back to being normal? And you 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:44.900 know what? And so, so I struggled with that. 00:26:45.019 --> 00:26:47.500 Okay. And because of the struggle that I had 00:26:47.500 --> 00:26:51.460 with that, I was like, no, come on. I'm an adult. 00:26:51.980 --> 00:26:55.279 What the hell am I doing wanting approval from 00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:58.380 my parents? You know, and then I thought, well, 00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:00.799 Shane, what about these poor little teenage, 00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:05.410 you know, how they just. don't know anything 00:27:05.410 --> 00:27:09.329 about love, anything about themselves and like 00:27:09.329 --> 00:27:13.230 their parents are just like everything and the 00:27:13.230 --> 00:27:16.930 struggle that they face. So between me and a 00:27:16.930 --> 00:27:19.730 couple of friends, we decided to then start something 00:27:19.730 --> 00:27:23.849 and very much it was a case of, look, we know 00:27:23.849 --> 00:27:28.950 how we feel and we can't imagine how a kid would 00:27:28.950 --> 00:27:32.069 feel, you know, how much worse it would be for 00:27:32.069 --> 00:27:35.519 them. So Yeah, we wanted to be able to give them 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.359 a safe space. And more importantly, we wanted 00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:41.200 to be able to speak with parents and just help 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.599 parents go through that shock and that lack of 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.359 information that they have. You know, because 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.880 as well, I'm like really aware that that World 00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:56.420 Health Organization only declassified being gay 00:27:56.420 --> 00:28:03.250 as a mental illness in 1990. Okay. So. That's 00:28:03.250 --> 00:28:09.569 kind of really soon ago in our history. Anyone 00:28:09.569 --> 00:28:14.650 born or brought up before 1990 was taught it's 00:28:14.650 --> 00:28:17.450 a mental illness. There's something wrong with 00:28:17.450 --> 00:28:20.329 you. There's something physically wrong. Kids 00:28:20.329 --> 00:28:24.509 are all born heterosexual and cisgender. They're 00:28:24.509 --> 00:28:27.130 all fixing the box of boys and girls. And anything 00:28:27.130 --> 00:28:30.390 other than that is wrong. It needs to be fixed. 00:28:30.650 --> 00:28:35.930 or it's somebody's fault, definitely. So, talk 00:28:35.930 --> 00:28:39.950 that. And so really it's a case of, look, let's 00:28:39.950 --> 00:28:43.230 get more information out there and bring people 00:28:43.230 --> 00:28:48.869 along with extra information and that certainly 00:28:48.869 --> 00:28:52.950 helps. I see you there, Ray, and I'm thinking, 00:28:53.130 --> 00:28:56.609 you know, I know that information is not the... 00:28:56.589 --> 00:29:01.230 only thing that gets rid of transphobia and, 00:29:01.230 --> 00:29:06.569 you know, barphobia and homophobia.

It doesn't. 00:29:06.849 --> 00:29:12.230 Information isn't the pill, as it were. It's 00:29:12.230 --> 00:29:15.450 one stepping stone in helping people come to 00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:19.690 terms with it, you know, if they're open to it. 00:29:19.970 --> 00:29:22.369 Absolutely. I agree with you. And that's one 00:29:22.369 --> 00:29:25.029 of the things that I struggled with in thinking, 00:29:25.029 --> 00:29:30.740 because I I had this kind of awakening and I 00:29:30.740 --> 00:29:34.480 know that sounds to anybody not trans I can sound 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:38.140 very strange or anybody who hasn't gone through 00:29:38.140 --> 00:29:41.420 this realization that they aren't authentically 00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:46.619 themselves and when I did I had a lot of information 00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:50.579 available to me because I'm quite adept at doing 00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:54.000 things online and existing as a person. Really 00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:57.920 the first expression of my femininity was online 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.740 in the form of an alter ego or at least a pseudonym 00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:04.480 that I had. And that's true for many trans women. 00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:07.000 There's a good reason there are so many trans 00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:14.839 programmers. What I had was information. Carry 00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:23.309 on. I'm so sorry about that. That happened to 00:30:23.309 --> 00:30:26.230 me two podcasts ago, right, Ruby? Yeah, it did. 00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:32.470 Yeah, exactly. With actually, you know her, Shay. 00:30:32.890 --> 00:30:36.930 We had Shay on here. Yeah. And Luigi had to leave 00:30:36.930 --> 00:30:41.470 for like 10 minutes. Just outside my door. Trying 00:30:41.470 --> 00:30:45.490 to fill in a form with a Chinese delivery, man. 00:30:45.490 --> 00:30:50.630 It was fun. My therapist, Luigi, and guest and 00:30:50.630 --> 00:30:54.190 friend of Kaleidoscope is the person who introduced 00:30:54.190 --> 00:30:58.950 me to Kim way back when I was desperately finding 00:30:58.950 --> 00:31:02.829 out about or getting information, which is exactly 00:31:02.829 --> 00:31:06.109 what we're talking about now. And I'll cut my 00:31:06.109 --> 00:31:08.250 story a little bit short. I had information. 00:31:08.829 --> 00:31:12.710 What I wanted was there are also trans personalities 00:31:12.710 --> 00:31:16.569 online that are really great. giving information 00:31:16.569 --> 00:31:19.849 and providing kinship. What I wanted to do is 00:31:19.849 --> 00:31:26.170 show existence with cis people. And I think all 00:31:26.170 --> 00:31:29.029 of it is needed. Everything is needed. It is. 00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:33.910 It is very much so. And I think that also, you 00:31:33.910 --> 00:31:37.130 know what, it brings a depth. So what you're 00:31:37.130 --> 00:31:40.230 doing is different to what they're doing. And 00:31:40.230 --> 00:31:43.900 while it's important, It brings a depth when 00:31:43.900 --> 00:31:48.420 you see different people doing different things, 00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:53.839 you know, and then the public can kind of understand 00:31:53.839 --> 00:32:01.759 that being trans is not a sort of a single -celled 00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.059 thing. You know, all trans people are like this, 00:32:04.779 --> 00:32:05.960 all trans people do that. Right, not one dimensional. 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:10.519 You know, it's like, no, there's actual depth 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:13.700 here. There's, there's, um, you know, different 00:32:13.700 --> 00:32:16.559 personalities, there's different skill sets, 00:32:16.859 --> 00:32:20.059 there's different everything, just like with 00:32:20.059 --> 00:32:25.819 cisgender people, they're complex, they're multifaceted. 00:32:26.170 --> 00:32:29.109 Transgender people are exactly the same. And 00:32:29.109 --> 00:32:33.269 yeah, it also leans a lot into the work that 00:32:33.269 --> 00:32:37.670 I do as well, is in bringing those together, 00:32:37.670 --> 00:32:42.990 you know? Yeah. How do you think a service like, 00:32:43.970 --> 00:32:47.730 or I guess platform, I'm not sure how to fully 00:32:47.730 --> 00:32:51.609 define Kaleidoscope as we continue to grow. How 00:32:51.609 --> 00:32:55.380 do you think something like us serves? the community 00:32:55.380 --> 00:33:00.460 that we're in and how do we link in and help 00:33:00.460 --> 00:33:04.440 people doing their, like, really hard groundwork, 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:08.400 like what you're doing, creating laws. How do 00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:10.579 we help? How do we contribute to that? Yeah, 00:33:10.579 --> 00:33:15.279 look. So for myself, because the work that I'm 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:19.680 doing is very much activism on a sort of a... 00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.480 Well, I'm not sure if your listeners will... 00:33:22.539 --> 00:33:26.680 will know exactly what I'm doing. So we started 00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:30.059 off as a nonprofit organization providing services 00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:34.039 to LGBT youth and to their parents. So basically 00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:36.279 we were looking at the family unit and trying 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:39.180 to keep that together. And then I got to a stage 00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:41.819 where I was like, you know what, I'm so tired 00:33:41.819 --> 00:33:46.180 of putting people together after they've been 00:33:46.180 --> 00:33:50.049 hurt. by homophobia, transphobia, all that. So 00:33:50.049 --> 00:33:54.670 how about we stop it from happening before, before 00:33:54.670 --> 00:33:58.410 it gets to hurt somebody. So that's how Come 00:33:58.410 --> 00:34:02.289 Then Up went more into advocacy. And advocacy 00:34:02.289 --> 00:34:05.710 is where you actually like, for example, I used 00:34:05.710 --> 00:34:08.590 to go to speak at schools, I still can. That 00:34:08.590 --> 00:34:11.289 would be one way is to invite people to come 00:34:11.289 --> 00:34:14.769 and speak. wherever you are, if

you're at a school, 00:34:15.010 --> 00:34:17.590 if you're at work, you know, if you're having 00:34:17.590 --> 00:34:20.469 a woman's breakfast or something, you can always 00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:24.070 have somebody come and speak and share, you know. 00:34:24.349 --> 00:34:26.610 It's about getting the word out there and it's 00:34:26.610 --> 00:34:30.429 also about offering whatever type of support 00:34:30.429 --> 00:34:34.250 you can, whether it be in kind. or whether it 00:34:34.250 --> 00:34:37.670 be financial or whether it be other resources, 00:34:37.849 --> 00:34:41.110 but yeah, it would be about that. I started off 00:34:41.110 --> 00:34:44.309 working in schools and then after that I was 00:34:44.309 --> 00:34:47.289 like, you know what, I'm one person. I can go 00:34:47.289 --> 00:34:52.110 to one school and maybe five, ten and near me, 00:34:52.269 --> 00:34:57.590 but if I go to the Department of Education, the 00:34:57.590 --> 00:35:02.119 National Department of Education, they If I can 00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:06.320 tell them what to do, they can just do a blanket 00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:09.159 thing over the whole of South Africa and say, 00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:15.420 look, every school has to do this. And so that's 00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:20.420 how my sort of journey in advocacy started. Yeah, 00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:24.119 we've done that. We've gone to the Department 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:27.730 of Education. And when I say we, I mean, I think 00:35:27.730 --> 00:35:30.849 it's important to note that advocacy is never 00:35:30.849 --> 00:35:34.150 a one -person thing. You know, there's so many 00:35:34.150 --> 00:35:39.809 other people involved, whether it's lawyers or 00:35:39.809 --> 00:35:44.010 researchers or just lots of people involved. 00:35:45.670 --> 00:35:50.989 So then you get to actually make changes where 00:35:50.989 --> 00:35:56.300 they count, where the power is to affect that 00:35:56.300 --> 00:36:00.179 change over four more people than you could ever 00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:05.159 hope to meet. So yeah, so that, and yeah, obviously 00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:09.039 then it went a lot further than that. I just 00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:13.400 want clarification. So Kim, you have, so when 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:19.239 Ruby told me about you, she said you were an 00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:22.340 advocate and you're fighting against hate speech, 00:36:22.340 --> 00:36:27.190 is that right? Correct, yes. Right. So, it sounds 00:36:27.190 --> 00:36:29.730 like you do a lot of things. And at the beginning, 00:36:30.250 --> 00:36:33.130 when we first started, you introduced yourself, 00:36:33.449 --> 00:36:37.750 and what was the place called? Same love. I'm 00:36:37.750 --> 00:36:38.889 sorry if I'm saying this wrong, because I've 00:36:38.889 --> 00:36:41.170 not said that ever again. Toady? Yeah. Okay, 00:36:41.170 --> 00:36:45.469 so that's your kind of like group or your, I 00:36:45.469 --> 00:36:47.989 don't know, can I say company? What do you call 00:36:47.989 --> 00:36:53.050 it? Yeah, so that's our sort of non -profit organization. 00:36:53.630 --> 00:36:57.389 There you go. I founded that. Yeah. And that 00:36:57.389 --> 00:37:01.530 is what provides, does service provision per 00:37:01.530 --> 00:37:06.050 se. And then from that, I also, we also got together 00:37:06.050 --> 00:37:12.050 an advocacy team to be able to do more, more 00:37:12.050 --> 00:37:16.289 work with, with, with people in power. So basically 00:37:16.289 --> 00:37:19.949 that comes to things like, like we've just had 00:37:19.949 --> 00:37:23.710 the Do you want me to go on and do the G20? Cause 00:37:23.710 --> 00:37:30.250 that's the most recent. Yeah. Okay. So the G20 00:37:30.250 --> 00:37:34.449 is just when 20 different countries get together 00:37:34.449 --> 00:37:38.190 and basically the presidents have a chat and 00:37:38.190 --> 00:37:42.250 decide, okay, these are changes that we can make, 00:37:42.469 --> 00:37:45.010 policies that we can draw up, laws that we can 00:37:45.010 --> 00:37:48.190 make to make our countries better for the people 00:37:48.190 --> 00:37:53.989 who live there. And yeah, so essentially there's 00:37:53.989 --> 00:37:58.989 also a C20, which is civil society. So now we're 00:37:58.989 --> 00:38:03.530 a nonprofit organization and our nonprofit organization 00:38:03.530 --> 00:38:07.289 has joined a coalition called the Hate Crimes 00:38:07.289 --> 00:38:10.690 Working Group. Now the Hate Crimes Working Group 00:38:10.690 --> 00:38:14.809 specifically advocates it for hate crime legislation 00:38:14.809 --> 00:38:17.489 in South Africa. That as well, that's a whole 00:38:17.489 --> 00:38:20.219 new... Different story, but essentially we got 00:38:20.219 --> 00:38:27.059 it passed in 2024. Oh wow, pretty recent. 23, 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.400 yeah, 23, I think it was. And, um, and now we're 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.659 focusing on implementation. And this is where 00:38:33.659 --> 00:38:36.679 now all of this other advocacy comes. Cause now 00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:41.219 the G20, it's G for governments. Okay. Government 00:38:41.219 --> 00:38:44.969 leadership and all that. C20 is for civil society. 00:38:45.369 --> 00:38:48.409 So the civil society gets together and Brazil, 00:38:48.690 --> 00:38:52.150 you had the G20 last year. This year it was South 00:38:52.150 --> 00:38:56.110 Africa, next year it's America. So this year 00:38:56.110 --> 00:39:03.130 we had the G20 and we got the policy pack from 00:39:03.130 --> 00:39:06.809 Brazil. Essentially, it's all the things that 00:39:06.809 --> 00:39:10.650 they thought was great. They give to us now and 00:39:10.650 --> 00:39:14.550 we see if we can improve on it. Okay. And so 00:39:14.550 --> 00:39:18.550 we looked and now in the C20, there's all of 00:39:18.550 --> 00:39:20.389 these different groups. There's a women's group, 00:39:20.610 --> 00:39:23.030 there's a disability group, a

business group, 00:39:23.190 --> 00:39:26.409 whatever, whatever, whatever group. And there's 00:39:26.409 --> 00:39:32.340 nothing for LGBT people. Not at all. So we're 00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:35.940 like, well, okay. But then, you know, we went 00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:38.719 into the women's group and looked at their policy 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.039 to see if we were included in there and we were 00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:45.280 not. We looked in the education policy. We were 00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:48.079 not included in there. We looked in all of the 00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:53.739 policies. There was not one mention of LGBT people 00:39:53.739 --> 00:39:58.679 anyway. And we were like offended, to put it 00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:04.619 mildly, to put it mildly. So we were quite annoyed. 00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:09.260 And so we decided, okay, fine. The C20 though, 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:14.280 I'll give credit where credit is due. They did 00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:17.639 realize that there was a gap. So they said, no, 00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:21.599 no, no, no, no. We do want to meet with the LGBT 00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:25.019 community and we do want to hear what they have 00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:28.199 to say. And so we're going to make the guy in 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:32.099 charge as the Sherpa. And then he has a Sue Sherpa, 00:40:32.139 --> 00:40:35.219 which is like deputy. But they said, no, they're 00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:39.300 going to two Sue Sherpas. And the one has to 00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:43.460 be from the queer community to represent them. 00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:46.800 So I thought, well, okay, that's, you know, that's 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.980 great. So anyway. Yeah, makes sense. They did 00:40:49.980 --> 00:40:53.519 that, but then we, we still had to go into all 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:58.480 of the policies. So there were 14, 14 different 00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:05.739 policies. and making sure that LGBT voices and 00:41:05.739 --> 00:41:09.739 let's be honest I mean LGBT people have very 00:41:09.739 --> 00:41:14.659 unique and separate challenges to what other 00:41:14.659 --> 00:41:18.559 people have so we had to make sure that those 00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:22.239 challenges were acknowledged and that there were 00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:26.539 suggestions on how to solve those problems you 00:41:26.539 --> 00:41:30.360 know so we did that and And I think we did the 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:34.079 first draft on all of these policies. Then they 00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:35.920 said, all right, now we're going to do the second 00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:39.179 draft. And we went and we looked at the policy 00:41:39.179 --> 00:41:41.820 we had already done and, you know, we'd put stuff 00:41:41.820 --> 00:41:44.460 in. Now we were going to take it and do a second 00:41:44.460 --> 00:41:47.960 draft with it. And all of our LGBT stuff had 00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:54.559 been erased, just deleted. I know. We were so 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:57.820 angry. So we went back into all of these meetings 00:41:57.820 --> 00:42:02.139 and said, No, we need to be in there. And we, 00:42:02.139 --> 00:42:05.179 we argued with everybody and got ourselves put 00:42:05.179 --> 00:42:08.860 back in again. Thank goodness. And then we decided, 00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:12.880 no, hold on. It's just too easy to just erase 00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:19.980 us. So let's, let's create the Q20, queer 20, 00:42:20.380 --> 00:42:27.059 you know, so that. Okay. Going forward, there 00:42:27.059 --> 00:42:30.500 is a working group that governments have to consult 00:42:30.500 --> 00:42:36.739 with. You see? So we literally made history. 00:42:37.739 --> 00:42:42.460 You can't take it away. And I'm honest, I am 00:42:42.460 --> 00:42:46.699 so proud of the LGBT people that, that, that, 00:42:46.699 --> 00:42:50.280 that, you know, worked, that, that we worked 00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.969 with and worked so hard to get this done. We 00:42:53.969 --> 00:42:57.329 created our own declaration that we submitted 00:42:57.329 --> 00:43:06.150 to the C20 because even the W20 and the Education20, 00:43:06.329 --> 00:43:09.369 they all have to submit their own declarations 00:43:09.369 --> 00:43:15.130 to the C20. And then the C20 takes all of that 00:43:15.130 --> 00:43:23.070 and makes one C20 declaration. So anyway, we 00:43:23.070 --> 00:43:29.010 created this Q20. We created the declaration. 00:43:29.690 --> 00:43:35.530 We launched it at the C20 summit. Yeah. So it's 00:43:35.530 --> 00:43:39.309 been done and going forward, like I said, that's 00:43:39.309 --> 00:43:42.869 the most important thing is going forward. You're 00:43:42.869 --> 00:43:47.190 always going to have to ask the queers. Yeah. 00:43:47.630 --> 00:43:51.639 And this happened. Like just last month? Yeah. 00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:55.480 Yeah, we've only just finished the G20 now. We've 00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:58.159 only just finished it. Yeah, because after the 00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:02.119 C20, once they make their declaration, which 00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:05.719 included us, and they listed all of the different 00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:08.719 working groups, and we were there, right at the 00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:15.199 bottom, but we were there. Yeah. Yeah, and then 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:20.579 they give that to the G20, which is then the 00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:25.139 president of South Africa was given that. And 00:44:25.139 --> 00:44:28.780 at the G20 social summit, that's where we went 00:44:28.780 --> 00:44:33.059 and we gave this to the president. The president 00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:36.460 himself said, thank you very much for making 00:44:36.460 --> 00:44:40.699 this, you know, an inclusive policy and for, 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.400 you know, all the months you've been working. 00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:48.139 Look, he was speaking to hundreds of us, but 00:44:48.139 --> 00:44:51.980 it was nice anyway. And he even mentioned all 00:44:51.980 -->

00:44:55.539 of these, you know, different groups like the 00:44:55.539 --> 00:45:00.300 D20 and the Q20. And of course all the gays are 00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:04.690 going... Yeah, yeah. You know, the president 00:45:04.690 --> 00:45:09.349 said our name. So, so yeah, so it was, it was 00:45:09.349 --> 00:45:12.630 fun and it was, it was exciting. Yeah. And we're 00:45:12.630 --> 00:45:17.469 just not thinking about next year. Right. When 00:45:17.469 --> 00:45:20.489 it goes to Trump, cause he's already said he 00:45:20.489 --> 00:45:24.170 won't accept our declaration and we're not invited 00:45:24.170 --> 00:45:28.650 to the G20 in America. And why do I, why do I, 00:45:28.750 --> 00:45:30.679 why do I? So he's already done all the... He's 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:33.800 a whiny baby. Come on. It's not forever. He's 00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:37.619 not forever. No, well, I think that's what people 00:45:37.619 --> 00:45:40.780 like Trump forget, is that, you know, this is 00:45:40.780 --> 00:45:44.059 not our first time around the block. You know, 00:45:44.059 --> 00:45:48.739 we are used to fighting to exist, you know? Yeah, 00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:53.099 and it's... Yeah, it's... I mean, I understand 00:45:53.099 --> 00:45:55.039 why Trump would say it because he's Trump, but, 00:45:55.059 --> 00:45:58.920 you know, for America to... not have something 00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:05.500 like a Q20, I think. It's just... Yeah. It will 00:46:05.500 --> 00:46:08.539 happen. America can't not, because America, I 00:46:08.539 --> 00:46:12.860 think, historically, is always the first to kind 00:46:12.860 --> 00:46:16.199 of, you know, lead the way in things like that. 00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:20.519 Have you been watching America lately? I mean, 00:46:20.900 --> 00:46:27.460 I have. It's not in a good state. Well, look, 00:46:27.940 --> 00:46:32.659 we'll see however he reacts. So we will respond 00:46:32.659 --> 00:46:37.780 the way we respond. And the thing that we are 00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:41.579 encouraged about is that it is just America. 00:46:42.659 --> 00:46:46.500 Other countries are pretty much over it. They're 00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:49.039 saying, listen. We're an independent country. 00:46:49.579 --> 00:46:51.920 We're not, you know, we make our own rules for 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:55.079 our own country and we'll do our own and we want 00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:58.099 to be inclusive. So we're having a lot of countries 00:46:58.099 --> 00:47:03.059 saying that. For example, the UK, the activists 00:47:03.059 --> 00:47:06.460 that we spoke to said, listen, you know, after 00:47:06.460 --> 00:47:11.199 America, the G20 comes to the UK. So whatever 00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:16.000 gets squashed in America will just revive. Yeah. 00:47:16.329 --> 00:47:19.889 You know, it's fine. It's fine. It's part of, 00:47:19.889 --> 00:47:24.190 it's part of just fighting to be alive. But this 00:47:24.190 --> 00:47:27.769 is one of our wins. So we've made history. You 00:47:27.769 --> 00:47:30.269 can't take that away. You can ignore it. You 00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:33.269 can try and, you know, break it down, whatever 00:47:33.269 --> 00:47:35.650 you're going to do. But at the end of the day, 00:47:36.190 --> 00:47:40.489 the history books have been written. Yep. So, 00:47:40.789 --> 00:47:45.110 okay, just to clarify. Yeah. So Q20, a creation 00:47:45.110 --> 00:47:48.289 of South Africa. We're more specifically your 00:47:48.289 --> 00:47:52.929 group. Very first to do it. Yeah, exactly. The 00:47:52.929 --> 00:48:00.090 very first. I am honored. The only thing is we're 00:48:00.090 --> 00:48:03.110 quite a raggedy bunch. No, we're not like these 00:48:03.110 --> 00:48:07.389 high people. We're just regular people. Yeah. 00:48:08.329 --> 00:48:10.630 Well, I think that's what the world needs to 00:48:10.630 --> 00:48:14.929 see. Examples of that. Just everybody being able 00:48:14.929 --> 00:48:18.449 and capable. not having to come from any particular 00:48:18.449 --> 00:48:21.329 point of privilege to, you know, achieve something 00:48:21.329 --> 00:48:27.469 great that makes the world a better place. Yeah. 00:48:27.849 --> 00:48:31.349 Yeah. And to be honest with you, that is kind 00:48:31.349 --> 00:48:34.789 of my message that I really want to go away with 00:48:34.789 --> 00:48:38.849 is to be saying, listen, you know, I come from 00:48:38.849 --> 00:48:43.170 a sort of a thing of I'm just a housewife. I 00:48:43.170 --> 00:48:47.809 don't have it. degree, um, I'm not a lawyer. 00:48:48.210 --> 00:48:52.250 I'm not, but it's just a case of look, um, I'm 00:48:52.250 --> 00:48:56.090 there and I'm put, you know, you can always learn 00:48:56.090 --> 00:48:59.289 what the laws are. You can always learn how to 00:48:59.289 --> 00:49:02.030 change them. You can always, you know, that's 00:49:02.030 --> 00:49:05.449 the only way I've done it is sort of learning 00:49:05.449 --> 00:49:08.929 on the job and just going from, from strength 00:49:08.929 --> 00:49:11.969 to strength, but you know, being supported by. 00:49:12.250 --> 00:49:15.750 all the other activists and that as well around 00:49:15.750 --> 00:49:20.329 us. So I think just it's a case of what I've 00:49:20.329 --> 00:49:23.869 done, anybody can do it. If you want to do it, 00:49:23.909 --> 00:49:27.429 you can do it, you know? Yes. One foot in front 00:49:27.429 --> 00:49:31.389 of the other and you can do it. Yeah, I think 00:49:31.389 --> 00:49:34.889 the, I think, yeah, I mean, to put it bluntly, 00:49:34.909 --> 00:49:38.849 knowledge is free, more or less. It's only the 00:49:38.849 --> 00:49:41.510 idea that... It isn't, and that stops people 00:49:41.510 --> 00:49:45.789 from even trying to learn because I think in 00:49:45.789 --> 00:49:48.190 the past, at least for me, maybe in my generation 00:49:48.190 --> 00:49:50.570 growing up, it was that you have to go to school, 00:49:50.570 --> 00:49:53.809 for example. You have to pay

for knowledge, but 00:49:53.809 --> 00:49:57.710 nothing stops a person from, especially nowadays 00:49:57.710 --> 00:49:59.889 with the internet, let's say, but nothing stops 00:49:59.889 --> 00:50:02.050 a person from going into the library and opening 00:50:02.050 --> 00:50:05.150 a book or talking to people who had the privilege 00:50:05.150 --> 00:50:07.130 of going to education. A friend of mine growing 00:50:07.130 --> 00:50:11.440 up, their family, were very wealthy and just 00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:13.820 because of the success of that person's father 00:50:13.820 --> 00:50:17.659 who explained to us all he did was when he was 00:50:17.659 --> 00:50:19.980 young he just went to the library and he learned 00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:22.440 and then he you know grew this like incredible 00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:25.340 business and they were such a really successful 00:50:25.340 --> 00:50:29.880 family again yeah anyone can do it it's just 00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:34.019 a question of knowing the only person that might 00:50:34.019 --> 00:50:38.559 be getting in your ways yourself 100%, you know? 00:50:39.219 --> 00:50:42.139 And I think this does come back to what Ray was 00:50:42.139 --> 00:50:46.019 saying about resilience. You come against these 00:50:46.019 --> 00:50:49.559 things that bring you down, and sometimes one 00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:52.519 of those things is yourself and your lack of 00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:56.880 confidence, you know? And if you can just put 00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:59.480 yourself in a place of, look, I'm just gonna 00:50:59.480 --> 00:51:02.880 try this, you know, and then just not give up. 00:51:03.079 --> 00:51:06.739 For example, when we started, Okay. We, we, we'd 00:51:06.739 --> 00:51:08.860 made this decision in my lounge that we were 00:51:08.860 --> 00:51:12.380 going to start this organization. Okay. And, 00:51:12.380 --> 00:51:17.000 and, and, um, and so all we did was put an ad 00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:19.400 in the newspaper that we were going to have the 00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:22.039 support group and we spoke to the library and 00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:24.239 asked them if we could use one of their rooms. 00:51:24.380 --> 00:51:28.039 And then every month we went to the library and 00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:31.880 we took coffee and tea and muffins and nobody 00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:38.429 came. Nobody came. Right, yeah. And the next 00:51:38.429 --> 00:51:41.670 month was the same. So we were giving out our 00:51:41.670 --> 00:51:44.750 muffins to, you know, the homeless people on 00:51:44.750 --> 00:51:47.869 the street and the security guard. So they liked 00:51:47.869 --> 00:51:51.210 us very much. And my partner even said, what 00:51:51.210 --> 00:51:54.070 are we even doing this for? Like, nobody's coming. 00:51:54.230 --> 00:51:56.289 We must just give it up. People were coming, 00:51:56.449 --> 00:51:58.489 but the security guards were stopping them because 00:51:58.489 --> 00:52:01.230 they wanted the muffins. They wanted the muffins. 00:52:03.150 --> 00:52:06.610 Yeah, they were beating off the gays. Go! It's 00:52:06.610 --> 00:52:10.329 our mother! Nobody ever knew, eh? Yeah, no, but, 00:52:10.329 --> 00:52:14.230 um, so we just continued. And eventually people 00:52:14.230 --> 00:52:17.150 started dribbling in, you know, little bit by 00:52:17.150 --> 00:52:20.050 little bit. And we grew from strength to strength. 00:52:20.210 --> 00:52:24.230 So yeah, it's a case of, yeah, it is a kind of, 00:52:24.230 --> 00:52:28.699 it is a tough road to go. But you learn on the 00:52:28.699 --> 00:52:32.199 way. I mean, you know, and there's so many more 00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:36.780 people more qualified than you, but they might 00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:39.320 be more qualified, but they also either don't 00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:43.539 have the time or that's not their focus for their 00:52:43.539 --> 00:52:47.000 life or what have you. You're, you're filling 00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:51.019 a gap that other people are not. So yeah, it's 00:52:51.019 --> 00:52:53.280 a case of just going, even though you don't have 00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:57.230 the confidence. or the skills, just do it anyway. 00:52:58.329 --> 00:53:03.030 It's like my dating life. Just do it. Ruby, we've 00:53:03.030 --> 00:53:04.489 mentioned something like this before, haven't 00:53:04.489 --> 00:53:06.349 we? It sounds so familiar. We've talked about 00:53:06.349 --> 00:53:11.050 this. Remind me. Just do the things that you 00:53:11.050 --> 00:53:15.170 want to do. Definitely. It's a topic that often 00:53:15.170 --> 00:53:18.699 permeates the conversations I'm in. But I don't 00:53:18.699 --> 00:53:21.360 remember anything particular right now. Yeah 00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:24.179 It's something that I've told my kids because 00:53:24.179 --> 00:53:26.539 they're like well, they're like everybody else 00:53:26.539 --> 00:53:29.860 You know, I mean everybody has some something 00:53:29.860 --> 00:53:32.519 they don't like about the world around them You 00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:35.860 know, this life's fair whatever whatever but 00:53:35.860 --> 00:53:41.059 then change it Change it. I could change it and 00:53:41.059 --> 00:53:47.480 that takes hard work and and Yeah, so But it 00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:53.059 is at least something you can do. Right. And 00:53:53.059 --> 00:53:56.159 I think also the thing is also don't be too comfortable. 00:53:56.539 --> 00:53:59.079 Don't be too comfortable. Don't take things for 00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:03.480 granted. Yeah, always good advice. Definitely. 00:54:04.260 --> 00:54:08.679 Yeah. Yeah, for example, yeah. Go ahead. No, 00:54:09.539 --> 00:54:12.179 in South Africa, we've had a marriage equality 00:54:12.179 --> 00:54:17.489 since 2006. Okay. Thank you to the lesbians. 00:54:18.610 --> 00:54:26.050 Thank you lesbians. That's a funny story. The 00:54:26.050 --> 00:54:29.449 lesbian, there was a lesbian couple and they 00:54:29.449 --> 00:54:31.869

wanted to adopt these kids. They weren't allowed. 00:54:32.269 --> 00:54:34.329 And so they said, no, no, no, no, they're going 00:54:34.329 --> 00:54:38.010 to go to court first to adopt the kids and worry 00:54:38.010 --> 00:54:40.630 about getting married later. So we were, and 00:54:40.630 --> 00:54:43.579 lesbians were, and gay. gay couples were allowed 00:54:43.579 --> 00:54:48.199 to adopt kids from 2005. Really? Yeah, they were 00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:50.619 allowed to adopt kids first before they got married. 00:54:51.739 --> 00:54:56.260 Then, in 2006, we were allowed to get married, 00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:59.219 actually get married. It was probably happening, 00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:01.980 and the government was thinking, we look really 00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:06.400 silly. Yeah, yeah. So we've had that, and you 00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:09.179 know what, we could be really comfortable and 00:55:09.179 --> 00:55:12.480 say, yeah, that's great, but... Guess where I 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:16.719 was yesterday. Guess where I was. I was sitting 00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:20.079 in front of parliament online like this though. 00:55:20.539 --> 00:55:24.440 Okay. And they're looking at the marriage bill 00:55:24.440 --> 00:55:28.820 and at the moment South Africa has three marriage 00:55:28.820 --> 00:55:33.500 laws, one for heterosexuals, one civil union 00:55:33.500 --> 00:55:37.380 for same -sex couples and then one for traditional 00:55:37.380 --> 00:55:42.329 and religious marriages. And they all have different 00:55:42.329 --> 00:55:51.469 rules and what not. So they've decided, okay, 00:55:51.530 --> 00:55:53.650 now they're going to have one law, but first 00:55:53.650 --> 00:55:56.949 they have to have a public hearing, you see, 00:55:57.190 --> 00:56:00.389 and see what the public think. Well, of course, 00:56:00.710 --> 00:56:04.300 so all of the religious nuts are out there. We 00:56:04.300 --> 00:56:08.079 can't have the gays getting married. So yeah, 00:56:08.340 --> 00:56:11.320 we're responsible apparently for a lot of things. 00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:15.199 Like there's a 5 % drop in marriages across the 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:17.800 world. Clearly, it's because the gays have been 00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:19.880 allowed to get married. That has nothing to do 00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:26.840 with the economy. No, not at all. So, okay, jokes 00:56:26.840 --> 00:56:31.679 aside. Jokes aside. There are real people that 00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:36.579 are well funded and well connected and are very 00:56:36.579 --> 00:56:41.139 keen to get rid of the rights of LGBT community 00:56:41.139 --> 00:56:46.420 in general. So it is so important for us to be 00:56:46.420 --> 00:56:50.099 in those spaces where we say, okay, we've got 00:56:50.099 --> 00:56:54.940 this law and this new law that they are speaking 00:56:54.940 --> 00:56:59.139 about introducing is inclusive. of everybody, 00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:04.340 it's really good, you know? But unless we

have 00:57:04.340 --> 00:57:06.980 people standing up and saying, no, this is a 00:57:06.980 --> 00:57:11.579 good law, then all the government is going to 00:57:11.579 --> 00:57:14.739 hear is how terrible the law is, how we can't 00:57:14.739 --> 00:57:16.840 have gays getting married, how we can't have 00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:18.019 this, how we can't have that. Yeah, that's a 00:57:18.019 --> 00:57:21.599 really good point. So yeah, so although we've 00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:26.219 had marriage equality for like 20 years, you 00:57:26.219 --> 00:57:29.039 know, we can't ever take that for granted. So 00:57:29.039 --> 00:57:32.079 yeah, so that's, that's what we've been doing 00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:34.760 as well. Yeah. You make a really good point. 00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:38.519 It does need to be simplified. Like, when I actually 00:57:38.519 --> 00:57:41.519 was aware of the fact that you were in parliament, 00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:45.639 because I was speaking to another person who 00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:51.400 was also in parliament. Who? Leanne. Oh, Leanne! 00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:55.320 Oh, she's, she's... She's one of my favorite 00:57:55.320 --> 00:57:58.659 people. She's amazing. I had the privilege of 00:57:58.659 --> 00:58:03.139 meeting her when I was in South Africa and I'd 00:58:03.139 --> 00:58:07.099 like to think that we've become somewhat friendly 00:58:07.099 --> 00:58:12.500 and I asked for her help because I'm not able 00:58:12.500 --> 00:58:17.820 to get a hold of DHA to find out if my changes 00:58:17.820 --> 00:58:20.519 have been affected and if I can apply for a new 00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:23.659 birth certificate and what my new ID number is. 00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:28.840 Um, because I'm in China and I tried to call, 00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:32.699 I was on hold for 12 minutes and I got a 300 00:58:32.699 --> 00:58:38.440 Rand bill. Uh, that's 150 RMB for Luigi and it's 00:58:38.440 --> 00:58:45.059 about $30, $40 for Americans for being on hold. 00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:48.739 No, less than that. Not even. Oh, sorry. $15. 00:58:49.059 --> 00:58:52.400 $15. Yeah. Yeah. Not that much for an American, 00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:55.829 but still. Yeah. So anyway, I was like, Leanne, 00:58:55.889 --> 00:58:58.769 please help me. Please, please can you check? 00:58:58.829 --> 00:59:01.429 And she said, I will, but on Thursday because 00:59:01.429 --> 00:59:09.210 I'm in parliament now. That girl is everywhere 00:59:09.210 --> 00:59:12.630 and she knows everything and she's got the skinner 00:59:12.630 --> 00:59:16.010 down on everybody. And I'm like, oh my gosh. 00:59:16.769 --> 00:59:20.429 She's on fire. Like I'm scared of her. She's 00:59:20.429 --> 00:59:24.139 supposed to be reckoned with for sure. She is 00:59:24.139 --> 00:59:27.360 she is and yet she's got a heart of gold. Hey, 00:59:27.500 --> 00:59:31.500 she really has I mean and an Integrity like you 00:59:31.500 --> 00:59:35.340 won't believe such integrity. I've got so much 00:59:35.340 --> 00:59:40.019 time for her Honestly, and she said such a good 00:59:40.019 --> 00:59:44.139 advocate for trans and gender rights Yeah, absolutely 00:59:44.139 --> 00:59:46.239 Luigi. Hopefully you get a chance to meet her 00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:50.170 as well As I make the rounds in South Africa. 00:59:50.349 --> 00:59:52.670 I like it. Sorry, what was that? He said, I like 00:59:52.670 --> 00:59:55.829 doing the circuit. It's great. Yeah, it's a lot 00:59:55.829 --> 00:59:59.170 of fun. We had a lovely conversation with a man, 00:59:59.530 --> 01:00:04.630 Chase King in Cape Town, who started a different 01:00:04.630 --> 01:00:07.570 sphere. But again, within that context of we 01:00:07.570 --> 01:00:13.969 need everything. Yeah. He started this expressly 01:00:13.969 --> 01:00:17.630 LGBTQIA plus inclusive hostel in Cape Town called 01:00:17.630 --> 01:00:21.690 SoulFam Hostel. Wonderful. That is so needed. 01:00:22.809 --> 01:00:27.530 Yeah. Exactly. Because a lot of hostels are diverse, 01:00:27.530 --> 01:00:31.030 but they're not inclusive. And this one is, I 01:00:31.030 --> 01:00:33.070 had the privilege of staying there when I was 01:00:33.070 --> 01:00:36.530 in Cape Town. So dear listeners, if you are traveling 01:00:36.530 --> 01:00:41.800 to South Africa, please do go to Cape Town. That's 01:00:41.800 --> 01:00:46.239 also where really the Cape Town mafia is, isn't 01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:50.199 it? They're the number one antagonists to our 01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:54.059 rights in the country. Okay, who exactly are 01:00:54.059 --> 01:00:58.219 you talking about? I'm not exactly sure. I'm 01:00:58.219 --> 01:01:02.179 speaking from rumor here. Theorically, I have 01:01:02.179 --> 01:01:05.079 heard of the Cape Town mafia, quote unquote, 01:01:06.219 --> 01:01:09.849 a conservative think tank. that is hell bent 01:01:09.849 --> 01:01:14.469 on demolishing trans and or LGBT rights in South 01:01:14.469 --> 01:01:16.829 Africa. Well, we've seen it very much when it 01:01:16.829 --> 01:01:20.429 comes to education. The education side, we got, 01:01:20.570 --> 01:01:24.949 like I told you, we were trying to get the national 01:01:24.949 --> 01:01:28.190 department of education to do something. So what 01:01:28.190 --> 01:01:31.630 they did do, because to be honest, they're on 01:01:31.630 --> 01:01:37.989 the sides of LGBT people because in South Africa, 01:01:38.219 --> 01:01:42.179 We have the laws that say you're not allowed 01:01:42.179 --> 01:01:44.719 to discriminate. And then kids go to school and 01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:47.260 then they get either bullied or discriminated 01:01:47.260 --> 01:01:50.340 against by the teachers. So then the Department 01:01:50.340 --> 01:01:53.199 of Education gets sued. And the Department of 01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:56.480 Education comes to it every time because it's 01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:58.659 clear the child's been discriminated against 01:01:58.659 --> 01:02:00.840 and so

therefore they have to pay the fines. 01:02:01.500 --> 01:02:03.920 And so they're not happy about that, obviously. 01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:07.820 So yes, they're wanting. things like SOGIE AC 01:02:07.820 --> 01:02:11.360 education and schools. So we worked together 01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:16.159 for about two years on a sort of a, what's the 01:02:16.159 --> 01:02:20.739 word I'm looking for? But like a book on SOGIE 01:02:20.739 --> 01:02:25.139 AC issues for schools. And it was done. It was 01:02:25.139 --> 01:02:27.960 passed. The heads of department had all passed 01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:30.869 it, everything. They went to every province, 01:02:31.130 --> 01:02:33.489 the Department of Education went to every province 01:02:33.489 --> 01:02:37.210 and did training on it. And once everything was 01:02:37.210 --> 01:02:39.610 done, they were just about to put it into place 01:02:39.610 --> 01:02:44.010 when, as you say, the Cape Town mafia came into 01:02:44.010 --> 01:02:48.590 place and said, no, they feel that they don't 01:02:48.590 --> 01:02:51.630 feel like we've had enough. What was it? Consultation. 01:02:52.139 --> 01:02:54.860 There wasn't enough consultation, so they didn't 01:02:54.860 --> 01:02:58.079 want it. And we, me and Leanne, and a number 01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:00.619 of people jumped up and down and lost our minds 01:03:00.619 --> 01:03:04.539 a little bit and said, how can one province hold 01:03:04.539 --> 01:03:09.300 the rest of us to ransom? If we are a democracy, 01:03:10.300 --> 01:03:14.579 surely the other, I think we have nine provinces. 01:03:15.659 --> 01:03:21.079 Geez, I should know this. Nine provinces. I think 01:03:21.079 --> 01:03:29.000 we have nine provinces. And we do. And only one 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:35.380 said no. And so now it's been put back in the 01:03:35.380 --> 01:03:39.039 box and everybody's quiet about it. So we're 01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:43.699 still trying to get that out again. But yeah, 01:03:43.719 --> 01:03:47.840 at the moment it's a uphill battle. But it's 01:03:47.840 --> 01:03:52.440 there, it's created, it's done. We just need 01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:56.800 to get it into the hands of the schools. But 01:03:56.800 --> 01:04:02.059 yes, so we have somebody in Cape Town just causing 01:04:02.059 --> 01:04:09.480 nonsense. Yes. And, well, let's not name names 01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:13.099 today because I do feel there are certain public 01:04:13.099 --> 01:04:16.889 figures around the world that... are the loudest 01:04:16.889 --> 01:04:20.949 voices and they should really just... Sometimes 01:04:20.949 --> 01:04:24.929 just hush. Well, unfortunately, if you tell a 01:04:24.929 --> 01:04:28.690 lie often enough, it sounds true. I won't say 01:04:28.690 --> 01:04:30.989 it becomes true because it never becomes true, 01:04:31.190 --> 01:04:34.809 but people begin to believe it. So, this is why 01:04:34.809 --> 01:04:38.710 as well, it is so important for us to just speak 01:04:38.710 --> 01:04:42.130 out so that you don't only hear these negative 01:04:42.130 --> 01:04:45.599 voices. It's important... us to speak and it 01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:48.179 doesn't mean you have to know everything. Even 01:04:48.179 --> 01:04:51.179 if you don't know anything, then just, just speak 01:04:51.179 --> 01:04:54.300 out anyway, you know, even if it's just from 01:04:54.300 --> 01:04:58.340 your heart and it, you must just speak out. One 01:04:58.340 --> 01:05:00.820 of the reasons I'm hesitant to name the people 01:05:00.820 --> 01:05:04.860 that I know are loud voices is because naming 01:05:04.860 --> 01:05:07.519 them platforms them. It gives them, it makes 01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:11.320 other people go there and it makes the algorithm 01:05:11.659 --> 01:05:15.880 push their names higher into societal sphere 01:05:15.880 --> 01:05:20.340 of knowledge. And I just think that for the most 01:05:20.340 --> 01:05:23.179 part, they should be entirely ignored, mentioned 01:05:23.179 --> 01:05:32.940 in passing. Right. Yes, I agree. Um, yeah, I 01:05:32.940 --> 01:05:35.300 do agree on that. Luigi, what's your perspective 01:05:35.300 --> 01:05:37.960 for tonight or question that you want to delve 01:05:37.960 --> 01:05:43.210 into? Yeah, I want to I want to delve into Well, 01:05:43.530 --> 01:05:47.889 let's talk about hate speech because I'm curious 01:05:47.889 --> 01:05:51.170 curious what Kim can teach us about it and how 01:05:51.170 --> 01:05:58.710 it well like operates in what she does because 01:05:58.710 --> 01:06:01.789 Yeah, how does how does hate speech manifest 01:06:01.789 --> 01:06:08.659 in antagonizing your your I won't say journey, 01:06:08.940 --> 01:06:12.340 but, you know, your goal and what you want to 01:06:12.340 --> 01:06:15.000 set out to do. Because when I think of hate speech, 01:06:15.099 --> 01:06:19.079 I think of just, like, outright vitriolic language 01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:22.019 to people that's, like, violent and aggressive. 01:06:22.280 --> 01:06:26.500 But I think maybe it's more finessed. And I'm 01:06:26.500 --> 01:06:28.659 just wondering, Kim, if you can define it for 01:06:28.659 --> 01:06:33.659 us or tell us, like, how do we know it? How do 01:06:33.659 --> 01:06:37.880 we recognize it? How do we stop it? Yeah. So 01:06:37.880 --> 01:06:40.679 that was one of the things that we did is we 01:06:40.679 --> 01:06:44.539 actually wrote the hate crime legislation that 01:06:44.539 --> 01:06:48.039 we advocated for. And so in that legislation, 01:06:48.380 --> 01:06:53.019 we were then, you have to actually define what 01:06:53.019 --> 01:06:58.420 constitutes hate speech. So the way we defined 01:06:58.420 --> 01:07:03.320 it was that it had to be hateful towards a group. 01:07:03.980 --> 01:07:08.039 All right. So not, I could say. I hate Joe Soap, 01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:12.219 but I can't say I hate Joe Soap because he's 01:07:12.219 --> 01:07:14.800 gay, you know, and all gays are rubbish and what

01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:19.260 have you. So that, that, that, but then also 01:07:19.260 --> 01:07:23.119 to go even further and say it must be against 01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:27.960 a group and it must create harm or incite harm 01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:31.860 and encourage other people to, to be harmful 01:07:31.860 --> 01:07:35.000 towards. towards a particular group. So that's 01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:37.760 how we've defined it. So what I've found is that 01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:41.059 a lot of people still come to us and say, you 01:07:41.059 --> 01:07:44.159 know, this and this happened and this is hate 01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:48.099 speech and, you know, we must sort of get them 01:07:48.099 --> 01:07:51.079 kind of thing. Yeah, many, many times we have 01:07:51.079 --> 01:07:54.500 to say, just calm down. That actually doesn't, 01:07:54.500 --> 01:07:59.050 uh, legally, no, it doesn't. meet that standard, 01:07:59.389 --> 01:08:03.090 it might be hateful, it might be offensive, it 01:08:03.090 --> 01:08:07.530 might be hurtful, it might be whatever, it might 01:08:07.530 --> 01:08:13.010 be horrible, you know, but it has to be raised 01:08:13.010 --> 01:08:19.869 to the sort of height of being a crime as well. 01:08:21.270 --> 01:08:26.189 So officially for us, it has to also do that. 01:08:26.409 --> 01:08:30.510 I can give an example. For example, may I try? 01:08:31.750 --> 01:08:37.909 Yeah. If I were to say group X are all stupid 01:08:37.909 --> 01:08:42.170 and they don't know what they're doing as a demographic 01:08:42.170 --> 01:08:46.369 of an entire country or society, that technically 01:08:46.369 --> 01:08:50.170 isn't hate speech. But if I said group X should 01:08:50.170 --> 01:08:54.689 be banned from society and beaten whenever possible, 01:08:54.949 --> 01:09:00.260 that would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. 01:09:00.760 --> 01:09:04.720 So that is pretty much it. We've just had an 01:09:04.720 --> 01:09:07.640 example that we're working with now. So let's 01:09:07.640 --> 01:09:11.800 do what you say. Let's not give more airtime 01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:15.899 to the actual need. But this person said that 01:09:15.899 --> 01:09:19.399 gays were to be killed and then they have a fairly 01:09:19.399 --> 01:09:23.930 big following. So their followers online... were 01:09:23.930 --> 01:09:26.369 like, yeah, we got the guns, we got everything, 01:09:26.569 --> 01:09:30.850 come on, let's go. He then took a mob, literally, 01:09:31.369 --> 01:09:35.970 from Durban to Joburg, where he tried to get 01:09:35.970 --> 01:09:40.390 the gays over there. And yeah, the police were 01:09:40.390 --> 01:09:43.069 called in and what, what, what. Then he came 01:09:43.069 --> 01:09:47.060 back to Durban and continued with saying all 01:09:47.060 --> 01:09:49.399 these horrible things that he was saying, and 01:09:49.399 --> 01:09:52.779 literally it had a negative effect on LGBT people 01:09:52.779 --> 01:09:56.100 here. People were thrown off public transport. 01:09:58.439 --> 01:10:02.699 A transgender woman was stabbed because this 01:10:02.699 --> 01:10:07.260 person's, yeah, the perpetrator was like, no, 01:10:07.420 --> 01:10:11.069 you're not allowed to be here. He even went on 01:10:11.069 --> 01:10:14.510 to stab the family because the family was allowing 01:10:14.510 --> 01:10:20.430 their transgender child to stay at their house. 01:10:22.750 --> 01:10:26.130 So it really went into a thing. So we've actually 01:10:26.130 --> 01:10:30.670 now taken him to court, the quality court on 01:10:30.670 --> 01:10:32.689 this whole thing and recharging him with hate 01:10:32.689 --> 01:10:40.189 speech. And yeah, he really is a sort of perfect 01:10:40.189 --> 01:10:44.710 case if you want to describe hate speech because 01:10:44.710 --> 01:10:49.270 This is the hate speech results in violence hate 01:10:49.270 --> 01:10:53.949 speech results in her and yes So yeah, and then 01:10:53.949 --> 01:10:56.229 to go on your next thing because you said and 01:10:56.229 --> 01:11:00.409 how do we stop that? Well, first of all prevention 01:11:00.409 --> 01:11:04.649 is a different thing altogether Because now prevention 01:11:04.649 --> 01:11:08.489 means that now we're looking at ways to stop 01:11:08.489 --> 01:11:13.930 the behavior, you know? So legislation is one 01:11:13.930 --> 01:11:16.869 of the first ways you can do it, because without 01:11:16.869 --> 01:11:20.390 legislation, how are you going to know? I mean, 01:11:20.449 --> 01:11:24.710 we all know technically, but when it comes down 01:11:24.710 --> 01:11:28.050 to research and that there's no, like currently, 01:11:28.449 --> 01:11:34.890 there's no data, and you can't collect data because 01:11:34.890 --> 01:11:38.479 it's not documented. Whereas now that we have 01:11:38.479 --> 01:11:44.079 hate speech and hate crime as a law, now it can 01:11:44.079 --> 01:11:48.279 be documented. Now we can say, all right, there's 01:11:48.279 --> 01:11:52.479 a hundred cases of hate speech. And why was there 01:11:52.479 --> 01:11:55.619 this? It was there because of maybe it was a 01:11:55.619 --> 01:12:00.119 religious group or something. So then we would 01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:05.109 go to churches and try and educate them. get 01:12:05.109 --> 01:12:08.649 them on board, you know, to at least say the 01:12:08.649 --> 01:12:11.250 simplest thing like, please don't kill gay people. 01:12:12.010 --> 01:12:14.789 Right. You would think that churches would want 01:12:14.789 --> 01:12:20.069 to say, please don't kill people. Yeah. Yeah. 01:12:20.529 --> 01:12:25.350 So, but anyway, yeah. And then in schools, it's 01:12:25.350 --> 01:12:29.850 easier to teach in schools to say, listen, guys, 01:12:29.909 --> 01:12:32.850 if you don't want to end up in jail, you know. 01:12:33.079 --> 01:12:35.779 Don't break the law. And this is one of the laws 01:12:35.779 --> 01:12:40.399 you're not allowed to break. So prevention comes 01:12:40.399 -->

01:12:46.180 down to education and just awareness. One of 01:12:46.180 --> 01:12:49.399 the things I like to ask politicians is to do 01:12:49.399 --> 01:12:51.680 things like, you know, like we did with AIDS. 01:12:51.859 --> 01:12:57.000 With AIDS, we put posters everywhere. There were 01:12:57.000 --> 01:13:01.670 billboards on the freeway. Adverts on the TV, 01:13:01.829 --> 01:13:04.550 all these public announcements, public service 01:13:04.550 --> 01:13:08.430 announcements were just plastered everywhere 01:13:08.430 --> 01:13:12.510 you can think of. And that's what we need to 01:13:12.510 --> 01:13:17.630 do with LGBT rights as well. We need to be saying, 01:13:17.750 --> 01:13:21.149 listen, gays are allowed to get married. So don't 01:13:21.149 --> 01:13:24.510 complain if you see them get dating, you know? 01:13:26.369 --> 01:13:28.189 Transgender people are allowed to transition. 01:13:29.340 --> 01:13:32.119 Don't complain if you see a transgender person. 01:13:34.319 --> 01:13:36.199 There's a high chance that what you think is 01:13:36.199 --> 01:13:38.659 a transgender person isn't actually a transgender 01:13:38.659 --> 01:13:45.520 person. Exactly. Exactly. Stop stereotyping people. 01:13:46.119 --> 01:13:49.560 Yeah. That's another one. I mean, there's so 01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:52.760 many we could put out there. This is why we need 01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:57.819 flags. Yeah. I do believe it would help, you 01:13:57.819 --> 01:14:01.229 know, but... But yeah, it won't always because 01:14:01.229 --> 01:14:03.989 if a person is hateful and they're just looking 01:14:03.989 --> 01:14:08.689 for a reason to hate, hate is gonna hate. It's 01:14:08.689 --> 01:14:12.109 just the way it is. True, truer words. But I 01:14:12.109 --> 01:14:15.430 suppose, you know, it sounds like the law is 01:14:15.430 --> 01:14:18.350 pretty good in protecting the people. I mean, 01:14:18.550 --> 01:14:22.810 the laws are set up and all that, you know, all 01:14:22.810 --> 01:14:25.350 that can happen is that people become aware of 01:14:25.350 --> 01:14:28.689 these laws and maybe that will... incentivize 01:14:28.689 --> 01:14:33.090 them from doing anything really bad, as opposed 01:14:33.090 --> 01:14:35.510 to a place where there aren't any laws made. 01:14:35.909 --> 01:14:38.229 So can you stop that? South Africa has a really 01:14:38.229 --> 01:14:42.449 incredible constitution. Sorry, you carry on. 01:14:43.869 --> 01:14:46.130 Okay. I was just going to say South Africa has 01:14:46.130 --> 01:14:48.489 an incredible constitution and a lot of really 01:14:48.489 --> 01:14:53.149 good laws. The part where we struggle is application. 01:14:53.189 --> 01:14:57.210 Well, yeah, I guess so. But to me, that just 01:14:57.210 --> 01:14:59.170 doesn't, it's a paradox to me. It doesn't make 01:14:59.170 --> 01:15:02.229 sense because you have all these laws, really 01:15:02.229 --> 01:15:05.810 good laws, but the applications. So why? Why 01:15:05.810

--> 01:15:07.670 is that? It's governmental incompetence. It's 01:15:07.670 --> 01:15:10.770 because of the homophobia. Yeah. Sorry, Kim. 01:15:11.050 --> 01:15:15.470 I think that we struggle with application because 01:15:15.470 --> 01:15:18.449 of corruption and incompetence. That's all. Once 01:15:18.449 --> 01:15:21.430 those problems are solved, almost all of South 01:15:21.430 --> 01:15:25.250 Africa's problems disappear. Yeah. Yeah. No, 01:15:25.250 --> 01:15:29.289 but I also think it is homophobia and transphobia 01:15:29.289 --> 01:15:33.909 and that because we can go and educate people. 01:15:34.430 --> 01:15:38.989 Like, for example, we went and did a sensitization 01:15:38.989 --> 01:15:43.029 on this one police station that was known for 01:15:43.029 --> 01:15:48.220 being homophobic. Wow. The thing is not only 01:15:48.220 --> 01:15:52.840 did we give them sensitization. All right. There's 01:15:52.840 --> 01:15:57.460 also a protocol that all police and all police 01:15:57.460 --> 01:16:00.899 stations are supposed to follow. It's called 01:16:00.899 --> 01:16:04.319 the standard operating procedures. Okay. Right. 01:16:04.659 --> 01:16:08.340 And they have special standard operating procedures 01:16:08.340 --> 01:16:13.550 for LGBT people. And that's not even coming from 01:16:13.550 --> 01:16:19.750 an activist. That is, the police themselves have 01:16:19.750 --> 01:16:22.970 standard operating procedures. The problem is 01:16:22.970 --> 01:16:25.750 police on the ground either don't know they're 01:16:25.750 --> 01:16:28.189 there or they don't care that they're there. 01:16:28.710 --> 01:16:32.130 But that certainly was the case where we found, 01:16:32.409 --> 01:16:35.729 we went there, we did what's his name with them. 01:16:36.109 --> 01:16:40.020 So we had... trained them essentially and then 01:16:40.020 --> 01:16:44.159 it was about I think six months to a year later 01:16:44.159 --> 01:16:49.000 we had a case of someone going there and being 01:16:49.000 --> 01:16:53.899 treated horribly quite humiliating you know and 01:16:53.899 --> 01:16:56.880 it turned out then they didn't want to open a 01:16:56.880 --> 01:17:00.439 case at all and they walked out and thank goodness 01:17:00.439 --> 01:17:04.149 they phoned me and they told me darn, darn, you 01:17:04.149 --> 01:17:07.250 know, police station. They won't open my case. 01:17:07.329 --> 01:17:09.569 These are the terrible things they've said to 01:17:09.569 --> 01:17:13.149 me. And I was like, just wait there. And I got 01:17:13.149 --> 01:17:18.229 in my car, drove over there. And yeah, I just 01:17:18.229 --> 01:17:21.130 walked in and said, okay, can I speak to your 01:17:21.130 --> 01:17:24.569 station commander? And then you see all of the 01:17:24.569 --> 01:17:28.210 police like, pardon? Why, why, why do you want 01:17:28.210 --> 01:17:31.960 to speak to them? And then, yeah. And then once 01:17:31.960 --> 01:17:35.359 I started talking, because obviously

I didn't 01:17:35.359 --> 01:17:39.359 go there as little old me. I went there as like, 01:17:39.399 --> 01:17:42.119 I'm the chair of the hate crimes working group. 01:17:42.659 --> 01:17:46.260 We document hate crimes. We believe we have a 01:17:46.260 --> 01:17:48.560 victim here that's trying to open a case and 01:17:48.560 --> 01:17:51.079 like, what is the problem? You know? And then 01:17:51.079 --> 01:17:54.090 they're like, ah, but, but. We didn't know. And 01:17:54.090 --> 01:17:56.829 I'm like, okay, so here's the poster that you 01:17:56.829 --> 01:17:59.810 have on your wall. Why aren't you following those 01:17:59.810 --> 01:18:03.750 steps? They're on the wall. You put them there. 01:18:03.770 --> 01:18:06.310 I didn't even put them there. And what about 01:18:06.310 --> 01:18:08.449 your standard operating procedures? They say 01:18:08.449 --> 01:18:11.510 boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then you see, 01:18:12.130 --> 01:18:16.869 okay. So tell us what's your name? Ha, ha, ha. 01:18:17.069 --> 01:18:21.659 And suddenly we had four policemen. on the case 01:18:21.659 --> 01:18:25.819 and then later, can't remember how long later, 01:18:25.859 --> 01:18:28.579 but I was quite impressed. They were really quick. 01:18:28.659 --> 01:18:30.880 I think it was about eight months or something 01:18:30.880 --> 01:18:34.979 and they'd caught somebody, you know, being identified 01:18:34.979 --> 01:18:39.500 by the victim and yeah, put through the court 01:18:39.500 --> 01:18:45.020 system and put in jail. So I was impressed. They 01:18:45.020 --> 01:18:48.979 did a jolly good job. That's awesome. That's 01:18:48.979 --> 01:18:53.399 a really good story. Yeah, don't call you Kim. 01:18:54.619 --> 01:18:57.840 Every jolly police station and puts a firework 01:18:57.840 --> 01:19:02.500 under their bum. Yeah. But maybe what, I don't 01:19:02.500 --> 01:19:04.760 know, maybe what you did, maybe someone will 01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:07.079 find, I mean, I mean, we're finding out about 01:19:07.079 --> 01:19:10.359 this from you, but surely someone has heard that 01:19:10.359 --> 01:19:14.060 story because of you and maybe they will do the 01:19:14.060 --> 01:19:16.869 same. So, I mean, I feel like you are. having 01:19:16.869 --> 01:19:19.930 a pretty... Now a lot more people are going to 01:19:19.930 --> 01:19:24.390 hear it. There you go. There you go. And you 01:19:24.390 --> 01:19:27.170 see, the thing is a lot more people are able 01:19:27.170 --> 01:19:30.489 to do exactly that same thing. You don't need 01:19:30.489 --> 01:19:33.789 a degree to do what I did. You know, you just 01:19:33.789 --> 01:19:38.550 go in there and... Yeah. This is all I do is 01:19:38.550 --> 01:19:43.310 with all LGBT people that come through me, I'm 01:19:43.310 --> 01:19:45.310 saying to them, right guys, these are your rights. 01:19:45.609 --> 01:19:47.689 And they're like, yeah, but the police won't 01:19:47.689 --> 01:19:50.949 listen. I'm like, okay, so these are their responsibilities. 01:19:52.909 --> 01:19:57.409 And yeah, it is a case of knowing your rights 01:19:57.409 --> 01:20:01.189 and just getting that information out there. 01:20:02.689 --> 01:20:05.189 This is a really interesting conversation for 01:20:05.189 --> 01:20:07.489 me. I'd like to share something that I'm doing 01:20:07.489 --> 01:20:14.369 through Be True To Me. transgender nonprofit 01:20:14.369 --> 01:20:17.770 organization, Focus on Transgender Folk in South 01:20:17.770 --> 01:20:21.970 Africa have a support group online. And I'm in 01:20:21.970 --> 01:20:25.630 that group. Through that group, I have met a 01:20:25.630 --> 01:20:29.069 couple of trans women, which is really just a 01:20:29.069 --> 01:20:32.810 big relief for me. Since meeting these women, 01:20:33.409 --> 01:20:36.210 with one of them I am entering into business 01:20:36.210 --> 01:20:40.069 with. We will start selling LGBTQIA plus jewelry, 01:20:40.470 --> 01:20:45.880 hopefully in February. in South Africa. Thank 01:20:45.880 --> 01:20:48.039 you. We're busy building the catalog. Moving 01:20:48.039 --> 01:20:52.920 on. We have also started, I started my own Discord 01:20:52.920 --> 01:20:56.520 server, which is supposed to function as an inclusive 01:20:56.520 --> 01:21:00.979 online space that is adult -friendly, sex -positive, 01:21:01.539 --> 01:21:06.300 and trans -focused. So this is a kind of a... 01:21:06.270 --> 01:21:09.750 opaque group. It's closed, right? It's got a 01:21:09.750 --> 01:21:13.270 specific audience. But through establishing that, 01:21:13.770 --> 01:21:17.329 I met another Discord server, which is trans 01:21:17.329 --> 01:21:20.449 -focused and information -based and open to all. 01:21:21.090 --> 01:21:25.789 And I started talking to that trans woman who 01:21:25.789 --> 01:21:28.270 has been running that server for quite a while. 01:21:28.329 --> 01:21:31.869 And we have since become sister servers with 01:21:31.869 --> 01:21:34.579 different purposes in slightly different audiences. 01:21:35.079 --> 01:21:38.720 We would like to grow. So we started another 01:21:38.720 --> 01:21:42.520 platform, which is meant to be community run 01:21:42.520 --> 01:21:49.119 online space for the, again, trans focus, but 01:21:49.119 --> 01:21:52.060 open to all providing information because it's 01:21:52.060 --> 01:21:56.460 hard to find. Sometimes you need, you need an 01:21:56.460 --> 01:22:00.449 active group of people contributing. socially 01:22:00.449 --> 01:22:03.850 to create a space that is open for newcomers 01:22:03.850 --> 01:22:07.930 to say, Hey, I need help. It's sometimes it's 01:22:07.930 --> 01:22:11.170 daunting to go to a nonprofit organization from 01:22:11.170 --> 01:22:15.770 the start, right? So anyway, we have this third 01:22:15.770 --> 01:22:18.750 platform, which is meant to serve as a filter 01:22:18.750 --> 01:22:23.130 and information page. And if you would share 01:22:23.130 --> 01:22:26.930 it to me, I

would love to. put the posters and 01:22:26.930 --> 01:22:29.390 the standard operating procedures for police 01:22:29.390 --> 01:22:32.550 and all of that on there and provide guidance 01:22:32.550 --> 01:22:34.770 for more people. Make it into jewelry, Ruby. 01:22:36.090 --> 01:22:41.069 Sorry? Make it into jewelry. You want the jewelry? 01:22:42.229 --> 01:22:44.210 You want the jewelry, yeah. I want you to make 01:22:44.210 --> 01:22:48.350 those operating standards as jewelry. As jewelry. 01:22:48.409 --> 01:22:52.170 One standard, one necklace. One standard, one 01:22:52.170 --> 01:22:54.329 necklace. There you go. That's a great idea, 01:22:54.569 --> 01:23:06.170 I think. Yeah, so there's a whole range of right 01:23:06.170 --> 01:23:12.430 now focused on coming out, proud parent, transgender, 01:23:12.670 --> 01:23:16.289 gay, and lesbian are the focus for now. And later 01:23:16.289 --> 01:23:22.359 we will expand to be more more sexualities, more 01:23:22.359 --> 01:23:26.579 identities, and also more allies. And when you're 01:23:26.579 --> 01:23:29.479 talking about coming out, please remember that 01:23:29.479 --> 01:23:33.920 it's not safe for some people to come. Of course. 01:23:34.560 --> 01:23:37.800 Literally. Literally. It can be life threatening. 01:23:38.579 --> 01:23:43.460 So just bear that in mind as well. Absolutely. 01:23:44.399 --> 01:23:49.050 Yeah. Like, I think... It's really important. 01:23:49.170 --> 01:23:51.289 A couple of times when I was thinking about coming 01:23:51.289 --> 01:23:55.289 out, I would read online, not everyone, but some 01:23:55.289 --> 01:23:58.369 of the guides will say, look, if it's not safe 01:23:58.369 --> 01:24:03.590 for you, do not come out. Don't. Safety first 01:24:03.590 --> 01:24:08.430 is the most important thing. Absolutely. And 01:24:08.430 --> 01:24:11.170 I mean, there's plenty of time to come out. You 01:24:11.170 --> 01:24:15.170 got the rest of your life. You know, and just 01:24:15.170 --> 01:24:18.109 choose it at a time in your life where you're 01:24:18.109 --> 01:24:22.210 safe, you're self -sufficient, you've got a job, 01:24:22.510 --> 01:24:25.489 you've got a roof over your head, you know, you're 01:24:25.489 --> 01:24:29.170 there. When, when you are self -sufficient, then, 01:24:29.529 --> 01:24:32.810 then, then come out if that's, you know, your 01:24:32.810 --> 01:24:37.069 safest time. Because then if people reject you 01:24:37.069 --> 01:24:41.220 or, you know, That's it's kind of fine. It's 01:24:41.220 --> 01:24:48.960 not nice, but it's fine. Yeah Yeah, but is sometimes 01:24:48.960 --> 01:24:52.060 you don't want to be in a financial financially 01:24:52.060 --> 01:24:55.319 dependent on somebody and then when you come 01:24:55.319 --> 01:24:57.600 out to them They're like, okay. Well now I'm 01:24:57.600 --> 01:25:01.640 going to withdraw that financial Support, you 01:25:01.640 --> 01:25:05.579 know, so yeah, and then that that is that is 01:25:05.579 --> 01:25:11.699 really not fine On that, I think we should wrap 01:25:11.699 --> 01:25:15.199 up today. Kim, it's been fantastic speaking to 01:25:15.199 --> 01:25:19.079 you. Thank you so much for your time out of your 01:25:19.079 --> 01:25:21.760 busy schedule, juggling all of the things that 01:25:21.760 --> 01:25:26.500 you are juggling to speak to little old us online. 01:25:27.920 --> 01:25:31.340 Yeah, no, it's been an absolute pleasure. And 01:25:31.340 --> 01:25:35.920 lovely to meet you, Luigi. Likewise. I met you, 01:25:35.920 --> 01:25:39.420 so it's been lovely. chatting with you virtually. 01:25:40.779 --> 01:25:45.100 And Ray, we've chatted quite a lot, so it's nice 01:25:45.100 --> 01:25:47.760 to see you again. Always, always a pleasure. 01:25:48.560 --> 01:25:51.119 We'll keep chatting for sure, I think. If you 01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:54.140 ever want to come back, please do. And where 01:25:54.140 --> 01:25:58.079 can I send people that want to contribute to 01:25:58.079 --> 01:26:01.680 Same Love Shoti? Well, we're available online, 01:26:01.720 --> 01:26:07.689 so you can go to either our Well, it's not called 01:26:07.689 --> 01:26:13.529 Twitter anymore. Our X page, you can go to Instagram. 01:26:13.850 --> 01:26:16.609 I think we're most of the time we're on Instagram 01:26:16.609 --> 01:26:21.029 and Facebook, or my personal page as well. But 01:26:21.029 --> 01:26:24.109 yeah, so anyone who wants to help us to further 01:26:24.109 --> 01:26:27.810 this work, because yeah, certain people who shall 01:26:27.810 --> 01:26:31.430 remain nameless have caused there to be a lack 01:26:31.430 --> 01:26:35.529 of funding, I think globally, but specifically 01:26:35.529 --> 01:26:41.020 in in South Africa. So we're always happy for 01:26:41.020 --> 01:26:47.680 any form of support that people can offer. Thank 01:26:47.680 --> 01:26:51.079 you. Kaleidoscope will also be reaching out in 01:26:51.079 --> 01:26:53.939 that capacity. If you want to find Same Love 01:26:53.939 --> 01:26:58.399 Toti, you can find them on Facebook at samelove 01:26:58.399 --> 01:27:03.819 .toti or Instagram at the same handle. You can 01:27:03.819 --> 01:27:09.739 find me, Ruby Ray Liu, at Fire From Heat or TikTok 01:27:09.739 --> 01:27:13.239 at Heat From Fire. And you can find Kaleidoscope 01:27:13.239 --> 01:27:17.500 on YouTube at Echo Perspectives. You can find 01:27:17.500 --> 01:27:22.279 Luigi wherever you can find Kaleidoscope. Living 01:27:22.279 --> 01:27:27.439 in a drawer. I take him out when I need him. 01:27:28.300 --> 01:27:30.680 That's right, Ruby takes me out for every podcast. 01:27:31.479 --> 01:27:37.270 Yeah. Alright, thanks for listening. Bye.