What Luke Learnt Spending £40k a Month on an Agency ၏ စာသားမှတ်တမ်းအပြည့်အစုံ

actually, I think, our second or third uh most viewed video on our channel. 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:00.560 So that's good. 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:01.840 So it did really well. 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:04.799 Um and we got some good comments and some good feedback. 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:07.680 Obviously, we had the event last week and more people gave us good feedback. 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:09.280 But um that event was brilliant. 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:11.120 I really I really enjoyed it. 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:13.680 I thought there was a really good mix of people there as well. 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:15.120 Yeah, for sure. 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:18.240 There was uh a lot of good founding in the room, very educational. 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:26.240 Obviously, our first event we've done, but we've already got another one lined up for back end of January that we're working with uh with Meta on, which is exciting. 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:28.719 So that's definitely going to be something that we're doing more of. 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:31.759 And what I liked about it, I think, was how practical it was. 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:34.719 You know, you're a your finance guy who spoke, I thought he was really good. 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:36.479 I thought he was really good. 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:48.159 I know that was a last-minute thing that he came and spoke, but I thought that was really interesting, and I also thought it's interesting, not necessarily just founder stories, but getting founders to relay actually what they're working on, what they think's made the difference. 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:54.560 Well, what I wanted to do is I wanted it to be super actionable for the people listening. 00:02:54.639 --> 00:03:00.400 I didn't want it to be, although like brand stories and things like that are great and they're nice to listen to, they're not always super actionable, right? 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:01.280 I 100% agree. 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:05.360 I wanted people to be able to walk away from that room that day and be like, right, okay, Luke said this. 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:07.680 Here's how I can improve my efficiency today. 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:11.120 Yeah, here's how I can improve the financial state of my business today, right? 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:13.039 So that's what we tried to focus on. 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.520 And I think we did that and we've had some really good feedback, and yeah, we'll we'll definitely be doing more. 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:24.719 But um, to the topic today, brands versus agencies, obviously, you're on the brand side, you've worked with many agencies over the years, I think, right? 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:26.639 Yeah, had some interesting experiences. 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:28.560 Yeah, good and bad, good and bad. 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:30.319 Yeah, the good, the bad, and the ugly as per. 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.879 Um, your brand side, obviously, we're agency side and also own a brand as well. 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:38.000 Um, so there's a couple of interesting perspectives in there. 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:45.759 Um, but I think in general, I want to start by saying that there's a big like distrust in the in the industry. 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.719 I think agencies get slandered quite a lot, and sometimes rightfully so, right? 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:53.199 Like sometimes it's fair and it's valid. 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:55.919 Um, but I wanted to dig into that distrust. 00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:01.199 I know I mean, is it fair to say that maybe you've got a little bit of distrust for agencies now, would you say? 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:02.479 I think I've heard you say before. 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:16.000 Yeah, I think I think I've had a lot of distrust, and and I think that's built up over a period of time because it you invest quite a lot in an agency relationship in terms of you feel like they're gonna solve the problem for you. 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:28.959 You go to an agency with a specific problem, yeah, and and the sales process of of onboarding an agency is quite a tri you build a lot of trust, you build there's quite a lot of investment there in that. 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:38.560 And then and then when it doesn't work out, for whatever reason, that is really damaging to the next process, and the next time you go through that, it it's much harder. 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:53.439 And also it's like it's not just the cost of the retainers, it's like the opportunity cost, because ultimately a good operator's not going to go into an agency relationship and cut it before three months because you know you know going in that it's gonna take minimum that, right? 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:59.279 So you're looking at a minimum of a of a three-month investment, both money financially and time. 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:04.959 Yeah, time that you can't get back, if you make that decision incorrectly, then that's a big cost for the business. 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:10.720 And I think the difficulty is figuring out how do you evaluate the agency, how how do you make that decision? 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:20.800 Because it's not always about cost, because I've I've I've worked with budget agencies, one-man operators, and I've worked with really big agencies that were very expensive. 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:25.040 And the cost isn't necessarily a predictor of success. 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:25.519 No. 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:32.720 And I think then on the brand side, it's really difficult at that point to understand how do I actually evaluate it. 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:43.680 And and I think when I look back on those relationships, I don't think we've invested enough time from our side in you know the way in like with a new team member, you need to set them up for success. 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:46.319 And I think you need to set a brand an agency up for success. 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:54.079 And I don't think we either understood that or even had a plan for how to do

that, and I think that was a big part of why those relationships had failed. 00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:16.639 Yeah, I think that's good self-awareness for you to kind of evaluate that in hindsight because we have this a lot, like we've got you know, 72 brands on board, and you have why is it that this same kind of methodology and this same kind of I guess, you know, selection of beliefs as an agency that we have, why does it work really well for some businesses? 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:20.480 Amazing for other businesses, but they're not very good for other businesses when it's the same thing. 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:22.879 It's like because someone do you think that? 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:26.240 I mean, if you answer that question, why do you think that's going on? 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.360 I think there's just a lot that's out of your control as an agency. 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:31.519 I think you can only deliver on what you can deliver on. 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:35.759 And I think like, for is a brand setting you up for success in the best way? 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:37.120 Are they is it a collaboration? 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:38.959 Are they providing you with the things that you need? 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.800 I mean, we're paid ads and creative, but that creative is repurposing content. 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:45.279 We don't have a studio, we don't shoot, right? 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:51.920 So a lot of the time when it doesn't work for us, and prospects say to me all the time, give me an example of when it's not worked. 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:56.879 And I say to them, Well, well, a lot of the time when it doesn't work, it's because it's a one-way relationship. 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:16.879 And we're providing you with a list, our growth strategy is providing you with a list every week of things he needs or she needs to move this forward, whether that be offer changes, whether it be PDP tweaks, but new buy boxes we want to test, whether it be providing us with new raw content or whatever that looks like, and you're not providing us with any of it, it's very hard for us to move it forward, right? 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:20.800 But is that about managing that relationship at the start and setting expectations? 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:22.720 Because I'm not sure that that's always done. 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:28.959 Like in many of it, it's I think there's a failure on the brand side to realise how much work they actually need to still do. 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:29.759 Definitely. 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:40.639 And and they budget it like the agency costs are always a bulk, like it doesn't matter what level you're at, they're always they always feel expensive for a brand, and then they're not recognising there's a ton of cost, actually. 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:42.639 There's still a lot of work that's got to be done on top of that. 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:43.759 I agree completely. 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:45.920 I think I say this a lot to founders. 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:49.680 Don't think you're just gonna hire SPG and then your work's done. 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:52.240 Yeah, you can just go and put your feet up and they'll take care of it. 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.560 Because that's the mentality that a lot of brands have. 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.759 They're like, right, okay, we've hired the agency, we don't need to do anything here now. 00:07:57.839 --> 00:07:58.399 Our work's done. 00:07:58.480 --> 00:07:59.600 I'm gonna go and focus on this. 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:07.199 But actually, you might even have to do more stuff because we're gonna be prov we're gonna be providing you with big long lists of things that we need to move this forward. 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.800 And if you're not ready and willing to do that, then it's not gonna work. 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:11.279 Simple. 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:21.680 And I think there's a real naivety around that amongst amongst agency, amongst brands, because when I first started working with agencies, I had no concept of that. 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:25.680 It wasn't explained to me by the brand by the agency that was probably what I needed to do. 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:36.080 I only even realized that that was a thing when I started recruiting more senior marketing people and they were coming in saying we're not managing these agency, this agency relationship, right? 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:38.480 And they started to put things in place. 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:42.799 But I even then still begrudged that because I'm like, well, why are we spending so much time on this? 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:44.879 What why why are we having to do all of this? 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:45.440 Yeah. 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:51.279 I think what I always say is with with an agency is get get them what they want and get out of their way, right? 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:55.519 So don't tell them how to do their job because you've hired them to do it for you, right? 00:08:55.840 --> 00:09:01.679 That you don't you're not gonna go into the barber's and start telling your barber how to cut your hair, you're gonna stay out of his way and let him do his thing. 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:03.200 But also get them what they want. 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:06.399 They're gonna need things, they're gonna need you to provide them with things. 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:07.200 And I think you're right. 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:11.919 I think it might be a situation where some agencies maybe don't communicate that during the sales process. 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:12.720 We definitely do. 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:17.120 Yeah, there's a lot of instances where I say to people, are you aware of the commitment your side? 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:18.320 If you are, great. 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:19.600 If not, this isn't gonna work. 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:27.840 And I'd rather just be super candid with them then rather than bring them on at us, us not be aligned and it not work out because

that's that's what's gonna happen if we're gonna do it. 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:28.879 And it's painful each time. 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:34.480 I mean, you mentioned about an opportunity cost, it is very, very painful each time one of those relationships breaks down. 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:42.320 It's expensive, hugely expensive for all the time that you waste doing that, and it damages your view of a whole sector. 00:09:42.480 --> 00:10:02.159 So you're end you're ending up and the the the real problem sitting on the outside from a brand perspective, it is it is exceptionally difficult to evaluate an agency because they'll always let you talk to their best clients, they've always got a masthead full of like great, you know, we're working with these brands and these brands, you don't know exactly what they're doing for them or when they did it. 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:02.480 Yeah. 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:08.960 You don't know whether it's uh it's a one-man band sitting in his bedroom, you know, has sparked up an agency and got started. 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:13.759 There's so there's a there's a real problem from a brand. 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:30.639 And also, different brands at different sizes need different types of agencies, and you can't necessarily I mean, how do you unpick all of that from I think the first thing you need is you need to actually understand or have a decent level of understanding of the of the skill set that you're actually hiring an agency for. 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:35.440 Because I think I think you're good on that front, you know Meta very well, and and you see e-com in general. 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:37.840 But that causes that causes its own problems. 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.440 And even you've still got it wrong, by the way. 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:39.840 Yeah, yeah. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:42.240 So what does someone who doesn't have that skill set do? 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:43.440 It's incredibly difficult. 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:54.320 But I think for me, when I think about being a founder and hiring people, I've always found it very difficult to hire roles that I don't fully understand A to Z. 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:54.799 Do you know what I mean? 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:57.840 Because it's like, how are you supposed to coach this person when you don't know it that well? 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:10.080 And it's the same, like, I think that's one of the core problems from the outside in from your perspective as a brand, is like if I don't know Meta Ads very much, yeah, how am I gonna tell between 10 pictures who's good and who's bad? 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:11.200 They're all saying different things. 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:11.840 How do I know? 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:17.200 And also I'm ultimately hiring for something I'm hiring because we're not doing it effectively enough. 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:17.919 Exactly. 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:26.159 You know, so then so then it's still then difficult to evaluate that because

is what this person's saying their methodology is the right one, or this person? 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.440 So yeah, that's why I think there's an onus on the operator of the brand to have a good understanding, right? 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:32.879 That's always the case. 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:43.279 Um I think you we obviously spoke on the last pod about how much you're consuming content all the time, the right people, yeah, you know, the right content creators, so you're always improving and developing. 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:44.480 I think that's important. 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:48.799 But I also think um I think the Is there an education process for the brand then? 00:11:48.879 --> 00:12:03.039 I mean, we've touched on this in the past about about some of the great agencies are educating their their, you know, they're using a they're using a content piece essentially to educate both their existing customers and also prospects to to establish credibility. 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:05.440 And I think that is really I think that's really important. 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:07.759 Massively important, massively important. 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:15.759 That's why YouTube's been so big for us, because like you know how many brands come to us now and they say, you know, we already know we shouldn't be turning ads off. 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:28.879 We already know we shouldn't be, yeah, yeah, we shouldn't be living and dying by ad account row ads, and all these things we talk about on our channel, so that content creation educational piece is it's kind of warming them up and getting them ready to understand our philosophy and our approach. 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:30.720 So I think that's super important. 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:36.559 And even if I didn't have the YouTube, in our onboarding piece, there is a big education piece for clients. 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:38.960 But that that onboarding can actually be quite overwhelming. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:39.679 It can, yeah. 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:46.960 I think you have to be super my when I I shudder when I receive one of those things and I try and fend it off to someone else in the business. 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:52.240 We've just got gone through one recently on on um for for uh with uh conversion wise. 00:12:52.559 --> 00:13:03.120 You know, that great agency, one of the few agencies like we still use uh for conversion rate optimization, and but their onboarding was like was significant. 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:13.279 And um and that in the end fell to me to do, because we were stretched across the rest of the business and it was daunting, like really overwhelming to kind of deal with. 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:22.720 Yeah, I think you've got to know what it is when you're getting into it, and I think every good agency, I mean for me, if an onboarding process is lengthy, that that's an that's a green flag straight away, right? 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:26.720 What you don't want is you don't want the onboarding process to be a Google Dot with five questions. 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:26.960 Yeah. 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:30.480 Because then I'd be worried on the other side, okay, this is not costing me any time. 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:35.120 This isn't enough material for the brand to understand the business, the agency to understand the business. 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.519 So I think that's a green flag. 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:40.320 Um, but yeah, I think there's many reasons as to why it is. 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:47.039 I mean, one problem I know from the agency side is it's very low barrier to entry in it, the agency business model, right? 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:49.759 Anyone can start an agency tomorrow, all you need is a laptop. 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:51.840 Like I started Paradigm with probably 200 quid. 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:52.159 Yeah. 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:58.960 All I did is I bought some bought some leads online, started cold email, yeah, taught myself on YouTube, that was it. 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:00.799 There's no like I don't have to buy inventory. 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:01.039 Yep. 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:02.799 Don't have to spend 20 grand on product. 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:03.519 Do you know what I mean? 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:05.120 So I think it's low barrier to entry. 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:09.360 And with that being said, naturally it's just going to be a crowded industry, right? 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:14.399 When you look at the the best agencies that I look around, they're actually they've got a background as operators. 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:18.240 Like you think you guys have got your own brand, you're doing that. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:26.559 I think about about various other agencies that I that I deal with without naming them, who've also got backgrounds as operators, and I think there's a lot of strength in that. 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:32.320 Well, me and Will have always said this, like me and Will, we started in this industry as media buyers, both of us. 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:33.519 That's how we learnt the trade. 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:47.200 We were we were on the tools, in our accounts every day, and you sort of like it sort of turns into this like process of constantly evolving and then the next thing and the next thing, but stripping it back, we were just media buyers, right? 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:52.960 I don't know how a salesman who knows nothing about media buying can scale a media buying agency. 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:53.360 I agree. 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:57.840 Because how, if you're good at selling, that's great, but what about managing people? 00:14:57.919 --> 00:14:59.919 What about actually delivering the service, right? 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:01.679 And you have to really ask as an agency. 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:09.279 I mean, as you get to different sized agencies and you start looking and working with bigger agencies, you end up dealing with very different people. 00:15:09.360 -->

00:15:23.279 The person who sold to you is a salesman at heart and and is not the person actually working in the account, and then you get introduced to some kind of um CSM that's going to get customers that's going to help you or gonna deliver on it, and you've got no guarantee that they're any good. 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:25.759 And and that may actually be a relatively junior member of staff. 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:35.200 Yeah, I what I would say to any brand listening to this that's sceptical about agencies, whether maybe they've had bad experiences or they've just heard people like yourself talk about theirs, so they're sceptical. 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:40.080 I would say just minimize risk in every way you can and don't sign big contracts off the bat for sure. 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:40.399 Yeah. 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:41.759 And what does that look like? 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:45.120 What what if you were giving someone advice on what that contract should look like? 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:50.240 I mean, our standard now at this point in time is three-month rolling. 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:51.200 That's our standard. 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:53.919 But we were monthly rolling up until like this year. 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:54.320 Yeah. 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:59.360 You can find a good agency who operates on monthly rolling, you've got 14 days' notice, you can walk within 14 days. 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:00.720 And I think you have to do that. 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:03.919 I think it's it's great that you're being honest about that. 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:10.960 And I have been burnt so badly over the last few years with long contracts being locked into them. 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:12.879 I think I think that's really sound advice. 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:18.480 Because I take the view, and I often argue this with software companies as well, as we've got towards more enterprise software. 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:21.840 I'm like, if your software's any good, there's no way I'm going to stop paying for it. 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:23.039 Because I need it. 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:30.240 Like, but if it's not, and you lock me in, it just it, you know, and we walk away from software deals now if they won't um they won't give a shorter note shorter controversy. 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:37.519 For the br for our brand, yeah, with all of our vendors, our 3PL, any we use a web dev agency ourselves, right? 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:39.919 Funnel agency, we use different agencies. 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:45.759 We do not have a contract with any vendor that's longer than a month, that's that's longer than monthly rolling, we won't sign it. 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:48.000 Even if they'll give us a better deal, we still won't sign it. 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:57.840 Because that flexibility for me, being on the agency side, seeing what I've seen in the industry, I would rather have more money going out of my pocket in the short term and have the ability to walk away at any

point. 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:02.480 I think if if people take nothing else away from this conversation, it's that piece. 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:03.279 For sure. 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:06.240 I mean, it's different for us at this size. 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:10.880 Like we've got 70 odd brands, we're building a brand that's that's exitable, right? 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:17.680 And for an agency, it's like there's very there's there's very few levers you can pull to make your agency exitable. 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:21.440 It's like contract terms, contract lengths, yeah, maybe a bit of software. 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:23.680 Is the founder removed from sales and delivery? 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:24.559 These key things. 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:28.720 Yeah, so we get we're at a point where we have to widen the contract, we don't have a choice, right? 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:36.559 But if it wasn't for that, I'd I'd stay monthly rolling forever because I know I'm confident enough in my service for the price, you're not gonna leave. 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:38.240 And if you do leave, it's probably the wrong decision. 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:46.160 And that's the difficulty though, isn't it, with with with agencies at times at the whole model, because there are so many different sizes of agencies there. 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:54.319 Like when if you if you were thinking about advising someone, uh advising a brand on what size, how how should they decide which agency to choose? 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.079 Based on different, a few different pick two or three different size businesses. 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:16.720 I think genuinely, for most brands, I think the only agency I would invest in, like if I just remove, just forget about the fact that I own an agency and I'm just looking at it from my brand, the only agency I would have hired in that zero to one stage, and I wouldn't have hired any until I got to like a grand a day in revenue as a as a starting point, right? 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:18.960 Because you need to know, you as you said, you need to know the tools. 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:27.440 You need to know what you need to you cannot build a modern e-commerce business unless someone in the leadership team absolutely understands ads and acquisition and growth. 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:36.640 Yeah, so if you've got a really good product market fit, right, and you've built a pretty decent offer and you're in that zero to one stage, results are good, you scale in, you're at Grand A Day in revenue, right? 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.759 Okay, now I've got some cash that I want to deploy on my next stage of growth. 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:42.160 Yep, meta Google creative, that's it. 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:46.799 Email would be at that point when I'm when I'm chasing growth, email's at the bottom of a pile there. 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:47.839 Yeah, I agree with you as well. 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.559 I don't even think there's enough revenue in the business for email to be anywhere near as big of a priority as well. 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:53.920 You haven't got retention sort of that. 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:58.720 Unless until you've built a system for growth for acquisition, uh retention is irrelevant. 00:18:58.880 --> 00:18:59.279 Yeah, exactly. 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:10.799 So I would do Meta Google and Creative, um, I would do rolling contract, and I would hire an agency where I can speak to the person who's actually going to be managing my account to sign a contract. 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:15.680 I'm not gonna get like sold to buy a salesman, there's not gonna be any snake oil, any of that stuff. 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:19.920 It's like So does that feel like a smaller agency when you when you when you're thinking about that? 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:28.799 Not necessarily, no, because like we're quite a I'd say we're like a mid-size agency, and I say to our when I'm when I'm pitching brands all the time, I say, Do you want to speak to the growth strategy you'll be working with? 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:30.000 Do you want me to bring him on a call? 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:30.240 Okay. 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:31.359 All the time I say it. 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:42.559 Because I think that alignment's just as important for us as it is for the for the brand, because like I don't want to give my growth strategist or that pod a client that he's not gonna get along with, that he's not gonna get along with. 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:43.839 Because that's a nightmare for everyone, right? 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:45.599 Of course it is, especially on a three-month term. 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:47.279 But the chemistry is massively important. 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:58.400 When I look back at the a the relationships I've had with agencies that have worked, and they've always been on the back of a really solid chemistry between myself and whoever was doing the work. 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:00.480 It's always relationship and results, yeah. 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:01.599 The two most important things. 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:05.839 If you don't have one, you need to have the other, and you can't survive without them both for a very long time. 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:10.480 I think there's times where results naturally might be down, maybe market, whatever. 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:12.880 But in those times, that relationship will carry you through. 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:13.920 So, how do you manage that? 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:16.079 I mean, let's talk about that when the results aren't there. 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:17.200 I say that to the team. 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:33.759 Well, you've got to have you've got to work hard on uh kind of fostering those relationships, and you've got to hire people firstly who are just good people and they get along with your clients and they take pride in getting along with your clients and caring about your actually caring about your clients' business. 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:39.680

And if you hire the right people and you hire for attitude and train, that should never be a problem. 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:48.799 Everyone in our business, all our growth strats who are the people talking to the clients, they absolutely love their clients, they treat their clients' business like their own business, because that's one of our values. 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:50.480 And that's what's so difficult, isn't it? 00:20:50.640 --> 00:21:07.119 When you sit on the brand side, it it always feels like you you want to believe that, but it never feels like when when because there's always a there was always a on the brand, you are thinking about your brand 24 hours a day, seven days a week. 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.880 The moment you wake up, you start thinking about it, the moment you go to sleep, you're still thinking about it. 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:21.599 And it it it it's always difficult handing that over to an agency and not feeling or or thinking they don't they're never gonna care quite as much as that. 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.279 And and I think a lot of the problems can uh stem from that. 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:33.839 You know, the founders who keep dipping in, or how does the founder react the first when the figures aren't exactly what um what you'd hope they're gonna be. 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.279 Yeah, I mean that's just life in business though, innit? 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.359 I think you whether it's an employer or an agency, they're never gonna care as much as the founder cares. 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:42.079 That's true. 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.559 So I think that's the same just with people in general. 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:50.799 I think whether it's an agency or it's my staff, I wouldn't expect them to go to the lengths that I'd go for the business. 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:51.599 Do you know what I mean? 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:52.640 No, that's a fair point. 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:59.599 So um, but I mean ultimately I think what happens is brands have a couple of maybe one. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:10.720 To free bad agency relationships, and then they just kind of taint all agencies with this kind of brush of like agencies, and and you know what, I get it, I'd be the same. 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.319 Like it's PTSD, it's a little bit traumatic. 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:16.240 It is traumatic, and I and I think I think you shouldn't underestimate how traumatic that is. 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:46.960 No, because there's there's an emotional investment in each new brand relationship, and and and and I can say from very extreme experience of that, with with probably three different um meta agencies that we'd been on a journey with over periods of the last five years, and the first one was a sort of one-man band, and the second one was a little bit bigger, half a dozen staff or something, and then and the third one was very big. 00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:52.640 And each one of those relationships ultimately broke down uh for different reasons. 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:53.759 What reasons? 00:22:54.000 --> 00:23:00.400 Uh so I think the one man band broke down because we outgrew them, we became better than they were. 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:01.440 Standard, yeah. 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:13.119 Uh that so that was a that was a um they they brought us in, taught us, but pretty quickly we outgrew just because our level of intensity in terms of our learning out outgrew them. 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:13.759 Yeah. 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:21.440 Um the the the second agency and the third agency failed for very similar reasons. 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:40.720 Um the second one failed for us, and I don't think they're a bad agency, just for us, because similarly, they they didn't understand Meta as well or wanted to operate Meta at the level the standard that we wanted to do, the level of intensity that we wanted to be involved with meta. 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.039 And it was such a core channel for us. 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:47.759 I don't think we could afford or really able to let go of it. 00:23:48.240 --> 00:24:03.039 And and I mean, someone like yourself though, with kind of the conversations we've had and obviously what we spoke about on the first pod, I think that's just you're gonna outgrow 99% of agencies you hire because you or you you're consuming content all the time, right? 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:08.799 It's the same the same reason that uh me and Will did the same thing as as media buyers. 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:19.759 It's like, well, today we might be on the same level as this person that we're talking to, but we know in six months with the amount of content we're gonna invest in and the time we're gonna take learning about it, we're gonna we're gonna leave them behind. 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:20.640 That's just the way it goes. 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:22.000 But then you get burnt really badly. 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:25.359 I was like, and I got burnt very badly on the third agency. 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:26.559 But why was that though? 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:46.079 I think because I allowed myself to believe, because you want to believe, that this big agency, New York studies, you know, all this credibility, all this track record, they they because ever one of the problems on the brand side is everyone comes along to you and says, We can do that better than you. 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:50.880 You you know, they don't specifically tell you why you're doing it wrong, but that's the pitch in heart. 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:54.880 And in some instances that's a hundred percent true. 00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:59.200 When I think about like my relationship with the conversion wise, hundred percent true. 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:01.039 They are better than me than us. 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:07.839 Um but you believe that, and so you get invested into there, so then emotionally when that breaks down, it's very damaging. 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:19.920 Um and and I and some of

those relationships, when you're spending significant sums of money and uh that that can get disproportionately expensive. 00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:20.400 Yeah. 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.119 Um depending on how the deal is structured. 00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:30.079 So I think th that was a m that was a mistake on our behalf. 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:31.200 I think it was our fault. 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:42.160 I think in hindsight, we shouldn't now if I was if I wanted help with Meta, for example, I wouldn't do it on a normal agency basis. 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:46.079 I would do it on the basis of mentoring in some way, and I would pay for advice. 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:48.400 Uh because I don't I don't need them to do the work. 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:50.079 I need more specialist advice. 00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:52.720 And we we use that model a lot now in different things. 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:54.000 But we're at a different point. 00:25:54.240 --> 00:26:03.920 You're at a different point, and I also just don't think your business needs a meta ads agency because you've already got that skill set locked down in-house, whether it's yourself or your header paid, like you don't need one. 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:07.839 I think that's about you need CRO because that's not your thing, and you have one. 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:14.640 And that's interesting because we used an agency to begin with, and I was uh who did a fantastic job. 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:18.319 And then I was I'm obsessed with bringing things in-house. 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:23.359 So I was like, we need to bring this in-house, it's costing us quite a lot of money, let's bring it in-house, we'll do it better. 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:30.240 And I had two separate hires over 12 months, very significant cost, and both failed. 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:30.640 Yeah. 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:42.640 Um, and then I had humbly, and and and Ollie from Commercial Wise said to me at the time, you're gonna regret moving, like in a nice way, like with mates, and he was like, It's this is you're gonna regret doing this, it's gonna be a problem. 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.759 And and lo and behold, I did, and I had to pick the phone out to him and say I was. 00:26:50.640 --> 00:27:01.039 And I've said to them on the way out, I don't think this is the right decision, you can always call me if it's not and come back, and they don't, because they don't they don't want to pick up the phone and have and face that reality, even though we've still got access to the triple whale. 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:03.119 So you can see, you know what I mean? 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.279 So, but yeah, that's interesting. 00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:20.400 But I mean, I think again, that what you what you just said there about conversion wise, for me, that that sums up this kind of point of the conversation, which is like your skill set as a brand is many things, but one of the biggest ones is meta-ads, that's your skill set. 00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:22.160 Yeah, it is your skill set isn't CRO. 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:22.640 Yeah, exactly. 00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:28.559 So you bring in the agency to plug the gap in the skill set in the area that you don't have it, which is CRO, right? 00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:31.680 I don't think you should ever hire another meta ads agency. 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:38.319 Maybe unless there's a weird circumstance, maybe a header paid leaves or whatever, and you need to plug a gap for a short period of time. 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.559 Maybe even then I wouldn't sign a long-term contract, you know, and that sort of thing. 00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:45.200 So I think it's a learning, it's a it's a journey, isn't it? 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:53.359 And I think that uh we're possibly not the best example of that because of the level of interest and intensity I've got in that space. 00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:54.960 Bad example, but bad example. 00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:02.160 Because I we again we have 70 brands on, no, we don't have a single founder that's got that level of intensity with learning. 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:02.559 Yeah. 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:05.680 So I think your approach with it, you are the anomaly. 00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:07.920 I don't think that's most of the most of the industry. 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:15.039 I think what people do is uh founders typically outsource the thing they understand the least, the quickest, right? 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:26.559 Which I think is fine and I get it, but I actually think in that zero to one stage, my approach would be doing the spending the hard time and the hours, learn about the thing before I outsource it, because that puts me in a better position to manage it. 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:27.680 100% agree. 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:30.319 I mean, my my view is very similar to that on it. 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:43.920 So I was talking to someone yesterday about this exact thing that when the people you should hire in the beginning are you should be you should be figuring out a task and then the moment you know how to do it, delegate it straight away. 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:48.319 So that as a founder, you are always working at the cutting edge of the business. 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:55.039 So because it's far easier, if you delegate a task that you already know how to do, it takes up a very small amount of your time. 00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:57.920 You already know what good looks like, and you can manage a person doing that. 00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:01.440 If you delegate a task that you don't know how to do, blind leads a blind. 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:04.880 It's completely you can't you can't manage that process and it's very difficult. 00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:11.839 The funnily enough, so I think uh uh anywhere up to 10-15 million a year, that is always the right answer. 00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:12.640 Definitely. 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:21.200 There it changes as you get to the size that I am because now

you need to recruit people who are fundamentally better than I am and specialists in the field. 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:22.799 Um that's the opposite. 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:28.880 Yeah, it is the opposite, but you're now in a position where you've built a business that's lucrative enough to attract that level of talent. 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:29.359 Exactly. 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:31.920 Whereas in that zero to ten mil stage, you can't do that. 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:33.039 And you've got to learn. 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.359 So you've got to you've got to learn each one of those jobs, then hand it off. 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:45.279 And sure, you don't need to necessarily become world-class idea, but you need to learn it enough to unlock it and really get to grits with that. 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:49.279 And I think if you don't do that as a founder, I think you're gonna be in massive problems. 00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:51.680 It's the same with us now with the whole events thing, right? 00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:57.839 We spoke, I don't know if it was on camera or not, we spoke briefly about the event last week and how well it went and how amazing the feedback was. 00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:59.200 That was our first ever event. 00:29:59.279 --> 00:29:59.440 Yep. 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:00.720 We've got a plan in place now. 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:06.319 We're gonna do one more in-house, and then we'll hire an events and partnerships manager and SOP that over to them. 00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:15.440 But we're gonna nail the process first so that then as a sales team we can we can manage that person appropriately and we know what good and bad looks like. 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:20.960 I don't just want to hire someone and bring them in to do it and not be able to even oversee it or look at it because I don't know what good or bad is. 00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:23.839 I'm like, Yeah, you keep doing your thing, whatever, hopefully it works. 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:26.079 You know, I think that's a really, really smart play. 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.279 Yeah, but that's like you just said that's our our play with everything. 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:31.680 We don't just bring people in, right? 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:37.680 We uh we started uh doing email and sms maybe six months before we merged. 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:45.119 Yeah, for a year prior to that, I was doing clavio courses, learning about email and SMS, sharpening the sword, improving my own skill set. 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:53.839 I already knew a basic level about it, but I even with the internal brand, I was playing around with things, sending campaigns out, reading data, building an understanding. 00:30:53.920 --> 00:31:03.440 So then when I actually started interviewing for you know someone in a in a retention team to come in, an email strategist, I went into that process ready to bring that person in. 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:03.680 Yeah. 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:05.279 Again, it's the same process, right? 00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:16.720 And I think you get better work from an agency as well, because if if the founder, you know, it can be double-edged sword, but if the founder really knows what they're doing, they'll challenge the agency and they'll bring the best out of the definitely the best out of it. 00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:19.519 Well, that's what we do for the brand now or for the agencies we use. 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:28.240 Like I said, we've got a web dev agency, we've got a uh a UGC agency, like we use different agencies, yeah, and we're well served to manage them because we are an agency. 00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:32.960 So it's very easy for us to go, right, okay, which clients get the best out of us because of the way they manage us? 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:35.359 This right, we're we're gonna do that, right? 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:43.680 So I think how how does coming if a brand's sitting there, how should uh how should the brand get started? 00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:54.559 Like when when when the brand is is if choosing between these groups of agents and it alights on one, what does good look like from a client, from a brand, how how do they be a good brand for you? 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:56.720 Uh how do how are they a good brand for us? 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:01.920 Yeah, I don't mean in terms of business, I mean, you know, we've all got clients that we like and clients that are more difficult. 00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:08.240 So what what does a really a brand, how does the what's the brand behaviour that tends to produce the best outcome? 00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:14.640 I think for me, because I'm the co-founder of the business and I'm still managing sales, it's the last thing we'll give up. 00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:17.759 It's the last thing we will hand over because I think it's the most important part. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:22.240 I think for me, personality and and like the actual person so key. 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.680 There's many times we obviously have like an ICP document, right? 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.799 In terms of a checklist that brands have to meet for us to bring them on. 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:28.960 Yeah. 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.039 Revenue level, spend level, right? 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:32.720 All these sort of normal questions. 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.039 But what's not on that ICP doc is is this person can we get along with this person? 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:37.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:40.799 Is this person going to respect my team or is he gonna are they gonna be addict to my team? 00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:41.519 Yeah, yeah, definitely. 00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:44.319 Are they gonna disrespect the team because they're below them, right? 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:56.079 All these sort of just people, person level questions, so important to me because I don't want to port my team, I don't want to make them have to deal with someone who I wouldn't want to deal with because I own the

business. 00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:00.160 So if I don't want to deal with them, you know, our team definitely don't want to deal with them. 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:10.000 And I think on the agency side, going on a bit of a different topic here, one of the fastest ways to churn good talent is by giving them unbearable people and unbearable clients. 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:26.640 I've I've done it before in times of years ago when we were a little bit more, I wouldn't say desperate, but we didn't have we we needed certain bit we didn't we needed certain business, we needed certain clients, we we didn't have the luxury that we have now of turning people away and having a pipeline as good as it is now and all these sort of things. 00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:27.839 So I've seen it happen. 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:34.559 I've lost good people in the past because they didn't want to deal with certain clients that I didn't want to walk away from because I I like the retainer. 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:35.519 Do you know what I mean? 00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:38.000 So that's the fastest way to lose good people. 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.319 Um so I think everything comes back to to me. 00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:41.440 Do you ever cut clients? 00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:42.799 Have you have you ever drop clients? 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:43.680 All the time. 00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:50.319 I would say we I would genuinely say quarterly, we there's one or two that we get rid of all the time. 00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:55.599 You said earlier, you made a good point earlier, you said the relationship's broken down, right? 00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:57.839 Naturally, the relationships do break down. 00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:04.960 If we get to a point where our our voice isn't being heard, this person's no longer receptive to us, right? 00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:14.400 It gets to that point where it's a bit, it's one of them where they're not listening, you know, we're trying our best, and then it's sort of calls are repetitive, we're repeating the same things. 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:20.320 At that point, there's been many times I just get them on a call and I'm like, look, maybe respectfully, we don't have to fall out about it. 00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:21.199 We're all adults. 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:22.960 I think it's time for you to go and try something else. 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:33.280 It's also an interesting point that you're in terms of where your business is sitting, because you've now got you're doing less of the client work yourselves and you're building out that layer of people. 00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:38.960 And I think it's super important for for to establish those that level of credibility. 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:45.840 I I I was um it was I think it was after your event. 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:48.480 I was I was speaking to I thought I was speaking to one of your team. 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:49.440 Grace, was it? 00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:57.199 Yeah, I think I think what and and she was talking about about how you know managing relationships with different with clients that can be more challenging. 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.400 And and ultimately, you know, that's about winning the trust of the client. 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:06.000 Like, and it's one thing for you to win the trust of the client, but you need the next tier down to do that as well. 00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:18.000 And I think I think that's that about building their credibility, their ability, their percent the in the client's eyes that they are credible and good at what they do. 00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:19.599 Yeah, it's difficult. 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:30.320 Um I think ultimately it comes down to how much does the client trust the the the brand of the agency and the the people, the founders and the people that they come to the agency for, ultimately, right? 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:33.039 Like me and Will are on YouTube every week, you know. 00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:38.880 Both of us, a lot of people come to work with SPG because they listen to me or well, or both of us and they like what we say. 00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:39.360 100%. 00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:41.679 But how do we carry that trust across to our team? 00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:46.960 I think you do it via um those meet the team calls, I think you do it via training. 00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:51.119 Like the people agency business is people business, right? 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:52.480 It's a people-centric business. 00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:53.840 People pay us for our people. 00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:55.440 It's almost in a way like a recruitment business. 00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:57.360 People are the best things about it, but also the most important thing. 00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:06.480 Yeah, it's almost, I always say it's kind of like a recruitment business because your Valente pays SPG in this instance, for argument's sake, because you want to work with the people we've got, right? 00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:07.440 That talent. 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:14.960 So I think you've got to invest so much in talent and training and developing, and also you've got they've got to have a good shepherd. 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:27.760 Like for for me and Will, it's a little bit easier because again, we're media buyers first, so it's easier for us to develop them because we're not, you know, we're not salesmen trying to learn media buying, we're media buying guys trying to learn sales. 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:29.920 And I think transparency massively helps. 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:40.639 I I think the the the agencies that I have the most respect for are the most transparent and the most public about their systems and processes and methods. 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:44.079 They demonstrate publicly exactly how they operate. 00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:48.239 Yeah, but you know why that is, it's because uh we're completely fine with it. 00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:49.119 We give a lot away. 00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:49.280 Yeah. 00:36:49.440 -->

00:36:52.320 And it's because we know that it's not as easy as just coffee. 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:54.639 It's not like it's in the execution. 00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:55.599 Like it's in execution. 00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:57.119 And that's actually what brands want. 00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:01.360 But I think I think from the brand side, you shouldn't be scared of oversharing. 00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:05.039 Like because it most brands don't want to do the work themselves. 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:09.280 The old brand will come and look at that and think, okay, I can just I can go and do that, right? 00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:12.960 But nine brands out, and they're not gonna be your clients anyway, they're gonna be people like me. 00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:16.159 Yeah, right, but nine times out of ten, you share like that. 00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:24.000 What you're really doing is establishing your credibility, you know, and you're really demonstrating what it is that you do. 00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:29.039 And I think that also helps with the training of your team as well, that it's very public what it is you stand for. 00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.639 It does, and I think that hiring in any business is the hardest thing. 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:35.599 We I think we spoke about it in person at the event. 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:39.039 Like hiring, you've got to kiss frogs, you're not gonna get it right every time. 00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:42.400 It's impossible because people are so good at interviewing, they just are, right? 00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:51.119 Especially in like the era of Claude and AI, and you know, pe people can knock up a good, you know, a good skills test or a good CV in in five minutes. 00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:54.880 Have you put a buffer yet between you and um you and the recruitment process? 00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:55.760 I'm not in it. 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:56.320 You're not in it. 00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.639 I was gonna say So we've got we've got ahead of people. 00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:00.320 Yeah, she handles the whole process. 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:00.880 Brilliant. 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:11.440 If it's a growth strategist, Will will me and Will will come in at the at the stage three, the final stage, but it everything before that, there's that's a very mature we're exactly the same. 00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:12.320 That's exactly how I do it. 00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:14.639 I don't get involved either until the very last minute. 00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:21.599 Um I I take the view as well that I'm t I'm a salesman at heart and I'm terrible at recruiting people because I just sell the business. 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:23.199 Like it's awful. 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:33.119 And I think uh problems I've had in the past is as a again, as a media buyer that's very passionate about the business, I think you're always a little bit biased as well, right? 00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:39.599 Whereas Jess, my head of people, completely unbiased, she's just hiring for attitude and willing to train, and that's our entire model. 00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:47.360 Yeah, we talk about La Macia a lot, which is Barcelona's youth system, it's called the La Macia, which is Spanish for the farmhouse, right? 00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:51.760 And they spend so much time investing in youth youth talent and developing them. 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:53.519 And it showed it showed in your business. 00:38:53.599 --> 00:39:01.280 I mean, I hadn't met the uh some of your team before, uh before your event, and I was massively impressed by them. 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:02.880 And they were they're not they weren't old. 00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:12.079 They were old beyond their years, mature, highly engaged, and really inquisitive and excited about it. 00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:13.599 And and that's rare. 00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:18.559 Like your your process of bringing people into business is working because they are great, they're a great team. 00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:19.679 Appreciate the feedback. 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:25.119 I mean, look, like I said, you've got to kiss frogs, like we've had having many, having many bad hires over the years, right? 00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:32.000 Uh, people are good at interviewing, but you you start to notice patterns in people, and and uh Jess, our head of people's amazing, that's like her thing. 00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:35.840 She is just people, culture, that's what she's at sort of the best time. 00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:38.320 She's much better than me and Will at it, that's why she does it, right? 00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:41.760 Yeah, so yeah, that's that's a key thing. 00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:52.239 Um I think obviously you talked a little bit about your agency relationships, and and two and three, the second and third one were very similar in terms of what what what didn't work. 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:58.400 I think from your kind of scar tissue that you've got now and your PTSD for lack of a better term, and it does feel like that, yeah. 00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:00.239 That doesn't feel overstated. 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:00.719 Yeah. 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:13.280 And even even to my leadership team, if I go and suggest like maybe we're gonna when I said that we were gonna bring conversion rights back again, I mean I had to like the leadership team around me was going, Well, we've been here before, no, we're not getting involved. 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.119 So, what kind of learnings now have you taken into? 00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:20.559 Let's say you you're gonna hire a new agency tomorrow. 00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:25.280 What learnings are you taking into that process to make sure that you get it right and learn from those mistakes? 00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:30.719 I I would be far clearer about the outcome that I was trying uh that I wanted this kid. 00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:35.280 And I and I don't think I was just being just improve my figures is not an outcome. 00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:36.400 It's not good

enough. 00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:37.199 Like scale. 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:39.199 Just scale is not enough. 00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:39.760 No. 00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:43.039 So I think I'd be much clearer about that. 00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:46.639 I would be much clearer about who was actually doing the work. 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:47.760 Yeah, for sure. 00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:49.360 Uh on their team, yeah. 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:57.760 Who was going to manage it on my team, like what does that physically look like, how much time is it going to be, what's the meeting cadence, and so on. 00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:00.000 Uh, because we just didn't do that in the past. 00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:06.880 And I would be super I wouldn't be signing a long contract. 00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:07.440 No. 00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:16.000 Um and I would want to understand at heart, an agency relationship is a is a is a an exchange of money for time. 00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:16.719 Yeah, it is. 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:17.280 You're right. 00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:21.039 And and I would want to understand the mechanics of that. 00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.280 How much actual time is my money buying? 00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:23.519 Yeah. 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:31.360 Like what is you know, and and sometimes agencies are quite reticent, they don't really want to share that, but I want I'd want to be, I want to have a better understanding of that. 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:31.840 Yeah. 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:40.079 I think that's that's like gold, to be honest, and that's the exact approach we have when we're looking at bringing on agencies for for the brand. 00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:43.519 It's like uh meeting the I would always meet the team, always. 00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:46.880 I would never uh pay anyone without meeting the people I'm gonna be working with. 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:50.480 I think that's crazy, and it's definitely happening more these days. 00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:52.400 I would say maybe because we're driving it more. 00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:56.400 Like when I'm in sales, I'm saying to brands, I will bring the I'll bring the whole pod on. 00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:58.000 You can meet the whole pod before you spend it. 00:41:58.079 --> 00:41:58.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:41:58.480 --> 00:41:58.719 Right? 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:08.960 Because I think that um we've had a couple of meet the team calls where it feels like that it's it's a done deal and the contract's like in you know, it's in is in draft, it's ready to go. 00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:11.440 Yeah, and you have a meet the team call and there's just not an alignment there. 00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:12.480 Yeah, there's just not an alignment. 00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:15.039 Chemistry is important, it's unbelievably important. 00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:18.480 Yeah, so I think that's have you tried having those meetings without you there? 00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:28.880 Uh and let the pod let the pod do that and just see see how that because because they they might they might it might they might learn more from that. 00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:29.599 Yeah, it's a good point. 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:34.000 You you build the team more because they have to take ownership of it, they're gonna be managing that relationship. 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:35.199 Yeah, it's a good point. 00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:37.679 I mean, I'm not on like kickoff calls or anything like that anymore. 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:41.840 I do go on to meet the teams because I'm obviously handling the sales process. 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:43.679 Um, but yeah, it's interesting. 00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:50.639 I think I think what you said, I want to dig into uh the piece on I would have more clarity with the the outcome that I wanted. 00:42:50.719 --> 00:43:02.800 That's key because we say this a big part of our onboarding is drilling down what do you want to achieve from this relationship, what's the North Star metric, the one, the one North Star that we're all working towards, yeah. 00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:03.440 What is that? 00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:04.639 Where does that need to be? 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:05.599 What's the outcome? 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:06.719 What's your desired outcome? 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:13.440 Getting honing in on those things because every time in the past we've not had those locked down, it always ends messy. 00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:18.400 And the reason the reason for most brands that they can't provide that is they don't know themselves. 00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:28.719 And and I think that raises a very you know, we we we touched on the talk that I did at your event around around, you know, what are you actually trying to achieve? 00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:29.760 Like, how do you grow? 00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:30.639 How do you do that? 00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:34.559 And I think one of the problems is most brands don't know, and I didn't know that for a long time. 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:38.639 There was just this this kind of thing, I just want to grow, I want to get bigger, I want to grow fast. 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:42.159 Yeah, and it's really important. 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:47.039 I think it's a very valuable thing you're doing to force a brand to think much more about that. 00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:49.360 Like, what is what are they actually trying to do? 00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:52.559 Because it's just so much more likely that they're gonna achieve it. 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:56.159 You just need to know what success looks like before you get it, otherwise you'll never get it. 00:43:56.559 --> 00:43:56.880 No, you won't. 00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:59.119 Nothing feels good, nothing feels bad, right? 00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:06.079 It's like I think that's that's super important and we get it all the time when new brands come on and you're like, well, what are you looking to achieve? 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:08.000 Well, you know, we just we just want to grow top line. 00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:09.039 It's

like that's not enough. 00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:10.239 How much do you want to grow it? 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:11.519 What about contribution margin? 00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:11.840 Yeah. 00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:13.440 You know, where do you want to be in 12 months? 00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:17.039 These questions are so important to understand and if whether or not we can help you get there. 00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:18.000 And educating. 00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:29.679 I mean, there's I think there's a there's a part of there's a part of the sales process that actually probably revolves quite a lot around education because you may be talking to founders who don't even understand those concepts. 00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:30.559 Yeah, exactly. 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.079 And you've got to teach them them first and help them evaluate. 00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:40.880 There's a there's a sort I I I had a conversation with um with an agency uh a few weeks ago. 00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:43.599 And what service was it? 00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:49.760 Yeah, they they they kind of brand overall performance stuff and expensive. 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:54.079 Um and and they they their process split into two. 00:44:54.320 --> 00:45:06.159 So the first process was a month uh and just a deep dive analysis into everything we were doing before they would do anything, like you had to pay for that kind of analysis of where we were at. 00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:13.360 And then after that, there was a six-month contract for you know, six months of help in in doing it. 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:22.960 And it's I think what's interesting about that is how important they thought the analysis was of actually uncovering where we were at the moment. 00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:25.360 Um so I do think that's got value. 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:27.199 That's probably overkill what they were trying to do. 00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:37.039 I I actually think that that anytime I hear about an agency having an onboarding that's like 30 days, I think what they're trying to do is they're trying to get two payments out of you before that working. 00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:37.280 Yes. 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:38.800 Purely a marginal decision. 00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:40.239 It's purely a margin decision. 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:41.119 Yeah, interesting. 00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:46.480 I'm I mean, it's funny at the top you can unpick someone else's business model when you're uh you're in the business. 00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:47.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:48.000 It's true though, isn't it? 00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:49.119 Yeah, I hear about it all the time. 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:55.599 Brands say to me, Yeah, you know, we we spoke to this agency, obviously won't name names, and you know, they've got they're they said they're onboarding is 30 days. 00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:56.400 What do you think about that? 00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:58.079 And I'm like, well, I think they want to get paid twice. 00:45:58.239 --> 00:45:59.199 Should we debunk that then? 00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:00.960 So that's so so you want to make that clear. 00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:02.880 What let's be real crystal clear. 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:04.800 What do you think about double payments like that? 00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:06.320 I think they don't make any sense. 00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.639 I think set up fees are ridiculous, in my opinion. 00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:19.039 I think uh anytime an onboarding, especially for for my service, which is paid ads and creative, anytime creative if it's you just see it's a little bit different because obviously there's external things as creators. 00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:24.159 Yeah, let's just say, for the sake of this conversation, you're delivering paid ads and repurposing content, right? 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:30.079 Any onboarding that's 30 days plus that is a purely margin financial decision from the agency. 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:32.800 Yeah, and anything they say about it is just pulling wool over your eyes. 00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:34.320 That's the top and bottom of it. 00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:46.000 Um it's funny being in this game, you're quite because I only see I I live and breathe SPG, so I only see the work we deliver and the clients we work with and our SOPs and how much our team cares. 00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:46.480 Yeah. 00:46:46.719 --> 00:47:00.079 But I would say that I am, having been in this industry for since like 2020, 2019, I'm quite anti-agency at this point, which is a funny position for this topic today, because obviously I'm I guess I'm supposed to be defending agencies, but but that's quite a healthy thing. 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:12.000 I think I think there's a great power in being, you know, being great brands are differentiated, they they have a they have a s strong signature and they are strongly differentiated. 00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:14.559 And I think that's a very powerful thing. 00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:15.760 I think you want to lean into that. 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:16.079 Yeah. 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:20.480 Well, I mean, if you we talk about this a lot on the pod, me and Will talk about it a lot. 00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:27.679 If you go through our branding materials, our website, our social media, there's certain the certain places you'll see we literally say we're not an agency. 00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:29.679 Like we don't want to be an agency. 00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:32.079 Like you should ask your agency this question. 00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:37.840 Quite a lot of our best performing ads in our own ad funnel are us saying, Ask your agency what your first time impression ratio is. 00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:38.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:41.039 Ask your agency what your contribution might is, they don't know, right? 00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:42.880 So I think I love those adverts. 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:45.199 They're not they're not yours, but I think they're an Australian thing. 00:47:45.360 -->

00:47:46.559 Good for profits, I think they're called. 00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:47.599 Yeah, yeah, I like those guys. 00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:52.960 And he's always, yeah, they're really great adverts, and he's always doing about influencers and uh how much does the influencer cost? 00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:56.000 And it's it's crazy, but he's he's got a good marketing strategy. 00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:57.119 Yeah, yeah, he has. 00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:00.639 We've had uh quite a lot of I've spoken to a lot of founders that have worked with them. 00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:04.719 Yeah, I think his strategy is good, but I also I like his position because I agree with it. 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:06.880 Yeah, having been on both sides, agency and brand. 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:10.639 And by the way, like for the brand, we've had some bad agency experiences. 00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:12.079 Yeah, but we've never seen it. 00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:12.800 That's interesting. 00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:15.199 How did you so how do you let's get into that then? 00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:17.840 How did you how did you recognise it was going bad? 00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:19.519 What did you do about it? 00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:28.639 I think do you know what's like just the little things always add up, like communication if responses are too take too long. 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:33.519 Like I think in this industry, more so than any other industry, you've got to move quick, you've got to respond fast. 00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:38.159 Like we have a two-hour response time in Slack at an SOP, obviously within working hours, right? 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:42.960 Nine till five is our working hours, our team are instructed, they must reply to clients within two hours. 00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:43.519 Standard. 00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:44.960 I think that's a really strict really good. 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:46.239 Super important, right? 00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:52.639 And that's come from, I mean, I I don't know whether you know that, but McKinsey and people like that, all of those, they they have that as a similar. 00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:53.760 I think theirs is even less. 00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:57.119 I think I think maybe it's like 45 minutes or something, it's got to be an immediate response. 00:48:57.519 --> 00:48:57.760 Vital. 00:48:58.000 --> 00:48:58.239 Yeah. 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:07.760 So I think little things like communication, I think little things like attention to detail, the way they deliver their work, um, how much they care about the way they deliver their work. 00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:13.760 Um so then as you start to see when it was starting to go wrong, how did how did you tackle that? 00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:23.440 How did you Well, I mean, we're as we go into this with rolling contracts always, or one-off projects, let's say in like the instance of a web dev or whatever that looks like. 00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:29.679 We try and avoid signing contracts at all costs, like termy

contracts at all costs, but definitely if we have to, it's rolling. 00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:31.199 So we're never tied down. 00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:38.400 As soon as I'm aware that this is a bad engagement, this is not working, this person isn't meeting the standard that we we require, we just move on. 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:38.880 That's it. 00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:44.159 And how does how does the brand be disciplined enough or strong enough to do that? 00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:47.920 Because you can come under quite a lot of pressure to sign a different contract to that. 00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.199 How how do you resist that? 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:55.360 I just think that if we have to sign a long-term contract to work with a certain vendor, then we'll just find someone else. 00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:58.159 The beautiful thing about this industry is there's a lot of options. 00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:00.239 Yeah, there are a lot of options, there's a lot of options. 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:06.480 So if like if I want to work with, I always go back to the web dev one because that's obviously a skill we don't have in-house. 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:10.400 So there that's the most frequent provider we would use for the brand. 00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:15.920 If we have to sign a six-month contract to work with a certain, I guess, CRO agent or whatever, I just won't work with them. 00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:16.880 I'll find someone else. 00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:19.280 There'll be someone else out there that's good enough, right? 00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:27.760 So, yeah, I think even like the even 3PLs, like we could we could go to our 3PL today and get better rates if we sign on the 12-month contract. 00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:28.400 I'd rather not. 00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:30.239 Yeah, I'd rather have the flexibility, right? 00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:33.920 So have you thought about that in advance, like before you go into those discussions? 00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:41.280 Have you got a a series of of red light of you know lines in the sand that you're not that you're not going to move away from? 00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:43.199 Well, for me, it's just a non-negotiable. 00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:44.800 We're not signing any long-term contract. 00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:46.800 Is there anything else like that that you you have? 00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:52.079 Um we always I uh we will always meet the team that we'll be working with every time. 00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:52.400 Yeah. 00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:56.480 I want to meet the end person that's I'm gonna be communicating with every day. 00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:56.960 Yep. 00:50:57.119 --> 00:51:00.079 Um, no contracts, meet the team. 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:02.559 Um they're the two key ones, I think. 00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:07.840 And I have to I I like talking to people's clients, and I always advise people to do that with us. 00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:11.840 I know you said earlier, if you ask me to speak to my clients, I send you my best

ones. 00:51:11.920 --> 00:51:12.800 Obviously, that's true. 00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:15.920 But you do get a good feel for it, in fairness, you do get a good feel. 00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:23.199 But even like we've had many brands that just go onto our case studies, they look at our clients and they just go and call up our clients without even telling us. 00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:23.840 Oh, really? 00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:25.280 And I'm completely fine with that. 00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:25.920 Interesting. 00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:37.039 I'm completely fine with it, because if you're really confident in the service you deliver, and you know what I take good pride in as well at SPG is um it doesn't always work, obviously, for many reasons, right? 00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:42.960 Sometimes it's market, sometimes it's product market fit, sometimes it's timing, like there's so many reasons. 00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:51.679 But I take pride in the fact that a lot of the time, more often than not, when people leave SPG, they go out the door knowing that SPG did everything we could. 00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:54.000 Yes, it's amicable and it's didn't work out. 00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:55.199 I wish you guys the best of luck. 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:56.400 Thanks for everything, you're great. 00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:59.760 I would definitely recommend you to people, even though we're not staying. 00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:02.880 That's the sort of we've got that's what we're built on. 00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:10.639 It's like if your client leaves under those circumstances with that feedback, that's not a bad churn for for the strategist. 00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:18.239 That's that's what the taste we want to leave in people's mouths is like this agency did absolutely everything and more over they overdelivered, you know. 00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:19.519 I think that's key. 00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:37.840 Um but yeah, I one thing I wanted to get into with you is um price, because I know you said earlier, you said price doesn't always correlate with standards and level of service, and I do agree for the most part, but I do also think it is a big I know you've had it you've had a bad experience with an expensive agency, I think. 00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:38.639 I've had both. 00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:53.360 I I think I think I think let's talk about pricing generally though, because I think pricing it often feels from the brand side that the price is just driven by whoever's sitting in the chair. 00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:58.880 So if if the if the if the agency feels like I can afford X, that's what the price is. 00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:00.559 And I really begrudge that. 00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:01.840 Yeah, I don't agree with that. 00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:03.760 You know, but I feel like that's common. 00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:04.480 Always. 00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:05.920 You know, so not with us. 00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:11.519 We have we have our pricing, our standard price, and it's it is what it is, regardless of who we speak to. 00:53:11.599 --> 00:53:12.960 But that is the case with a lot of agencies. 00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:18.719 And and I think I think that that is toxic for a brand to feel like that. 00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:36.639 You know, and it and it and so if you're not doing that, you want to make a big song, a big fuss about that, really transparent, because there's always a feeling from the brand side that that uh you know I could have got a better deal or and I've got no context of whether I've got a decent deal here. 00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:43.440 And and and I think that's that's that always makes it difficult to sort of like sort of trust. 00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:45.360 Yeah, I get what you're saying. 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:54.320 I mean, I hear this all the time, but a lot of the time, if you've got a salesman, yeah, a traditional old school closer, sleazy salesman, he's he's got all the sales tactics in the book. 00:53:54.559 --> 00:54:00.000 If you if if that person's managing sales for the agency, their incentives aren't aligned with the team. 00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:02.320 All they want to do is get as much commission as they can get this much. 00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:04.159 They'll say anything to close that deal. 00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:06.719 And if they think you can pay five grand, they'll say it's five grand. 00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:09.119 If they think you can pay ten, they'll say ten, right? 00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:11.840 So again, I think it comes down to the incentives piece, and I think that actually. 00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:13.039 Do you incentivize? 00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:14.719 I mean, you're obviously doing sales yourself. 00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:17.679 Do you agree with incentivising salespeople or do you not agree with it? 00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:23.119 Uh well, I was actually just gonna dig into the fact that this aligns with a point I wanted to make on sales. 00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:25.679 I know I said earlier it's the last thing we'll hand over. 00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:30.320 Everything else in the business right now is handed over from me and Will. 00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:35.519 Everything else, paid, you know, delivery, creative, finance, everything. 00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:37.280 But sales is the last thing that I want to have. 00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:38.239 And why is that? 00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:39.519 Why have you left that too lost? 00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:56.559 Because of the way that incentives are different, because for me, like we turn away so much business, genuinely, and I know that's an easy thing to say, and it's a bit maybe maybe salesmen say that as well, but we genuinely do because if I don't think genuinely hand on heart this brand is gonna be with us in 12 months, I don't bring them on. 00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:57.199 There's no point. 00:54:57.280 --> 00:54:57.760 There's no point. 00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:01.440 We're a recurring business uh model, we're an agency, right? 00:55:01.760 -->

00:55:09.920 And also, it's like I don't want to put the team through that experience, but I the reason I think that is because I'm the founder, it's my business. 00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:24.079 But you know, you can I I was I I can't remember the name of the business that I I learned this from, but they had a similar problem and they started tar um targeting salespeople on retention, purely and simply. 00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:32.559 So if that if that if that brand wasn't still with them in six months or twelve months' time, then there's there was no uh there was no benefit to the salesperson. 00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:34.719 That's the way that we'll go about it. 00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:36.880 I mean, I've got a I've got a BDE, right? 00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:52.079 I've got a BDE, and and that's the sort of kind of commission scheme we'd be looking at would be they get more commission the longer that they're here or they only get commission if they're here for a minimum of X or whatever that looks like, it would be somewhere incentivized on retention. 00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:53.679 Commission's a strange thing though, right? 00:55:53.760 --> 00:55:55.679 Like something controversial, right? 00:55:55.760 --> 00:55:59.519 In so in my business, we don't do any bonus schemes. 00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:00.159 Really? 00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:16.159 Yeah, because I think they're quite toxic because they they warp behavior uh and it's not necessarily aligned with the the the outcome of the business or the outcome of the team as you've experienced as you're describing there. 00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:22.000 And I think that they also don't achieve what you want to achieve with them. 00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:33.360 For most people for 99 people out of a hundred, they they always feel they should have it doesn't matter how much the bonuses they earn, they always feel they should have got more. 00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:33.599 Yeah. 00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:35.119 So they're never satisfied with it. 00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:36.159 That's just humans in general. 00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:37.519 It's human human nature. 00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:51.119 Whereas if you I think you build a much more stable business by having stable staff, like you're encountering, having staff that stay a long time because they generally get progressively better at their job and the culture and the company. 00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:59.599 And taking away it always causes resentment because the salespeople end up disproportionately getting more. 00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:03.760 They're not necessarily disproportionately more valuable to the business. 00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:04.239 No. 00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:14.480 And so, and I think most people would rather have uh a salary 12 months of the year that is reflective of the job that they're doing. 00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:21.360 So we've always done it, we don't do bonus, even anyone, not even on my leadership team, no one has it, but they have very high salaries. 00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:27.679 Um and there is some risk with that that it doesn't deliver the performance, but our experience has been it doesn't make any difference. 00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:29.360 I think it all comes down to the operator. 00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:31.119 I think it all comes down to the person. 00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:41.760 Like, I think that for m for a lot of people, they need they will perform best if they're incentivised to do so, but certain the You should try and you should try the opposite. 00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:43.119 I think that I think you'd be shocked. 00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:51.519 There's certain levels of operators, like for example, our leadership team and other people that I've worked with over the years where they just operate at that level because that's who they are. 00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:51.679 Yeah. 00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:57.119 And it doesn't matter if you're gonna pay them more, it doesn't matter if you pay them less, they'd still just stood every day and operate at a level. 00:57:57.199 --> 00:57:57.599 I mean, in our. 00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:00.559 I imagine having a whole team, whole business of people. 00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:02.800 It doesn't mean your salary bill's less, right? 00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:07.440 Because you know you're paying, you're paying individually, you're guaranteeing them that result. 00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:12.079 You're saying, you're an A player, I know you're gonna work on the limit the whole time. 00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:13.199 Here's the money for it. 00:58:13.519 --> 00:58:16.880 You know, because like you said, that person, that's who they are. 00:58:17.119 --> 00:58:17.360 Yeah. 00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:26.000 And you our growth strategists get commission on retention and on spend, obviously maintaining profitability, of course. 00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:34.559 Um, because that those two outcomes, obviously, retention and spend are aligned with our desired outcome to keep the client longer, right? 00:58:34.639 --> 00:58:38.480 So that one does kind of work, and they're all on high-based salaries as well, right? 00:58:38.800 --> 00:58:43.599 But for me, I think going back to what you just said, the salesman's not more valuable than anyone else in the business. 00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:48.639 For me, in in our business, being a service-based business, the people delivering the service are most valuable. 00:58:48.960 --> 00:58:49.280 Exactly. 00:58:49.360 --> 00:59:04.559 But they but it always ends up being in most businesses that have frontline salespeople, they end up earning the most money when really the retention is the key because it's one of those things, and that's what's weird in in business. 00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:08.079 The thing that doesn't shout the loudest is often the most important thing. 00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:15.199 Yeah, I mean, that's why it's the last thing that we're handing over, it's the last thing that I'm gonna give up because I agree with you completely.

00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:30.159 I think it's the least it's it's the the the people delivering the service are way more important, and I can have that gut check on ICP on personality, yeah, and no salesman who's who's commit who's got commission on closers is ever gonna care that much. 00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:33.199 They're gonna want to get as much commission as they can get this mum. 00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:35.760 So I think, yeah, I think that's a key thing. 00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:41.199 Um, and that's another thing for any brands listening that I would be wary of with agencies. 00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:44.719 I would want to speak to several people beyond the salesman. 00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:50.239 If I'm if I'm getting close, if I'm getting sold to buy a BDE, yeah, just a traditional sales guy. 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:59.280 Me I would there's no way I would pay anything until I've spoken to the growth strat, until even maybe a conversation with a leadership member, a founder, something like that. 00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:02.000 I want to speak to multiple people before getting fed. 01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:10.800 It's probably the most expensive bill that a business has apart from their ad their they're physically the ad spend. 01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:11.840 But you're talking about both. 01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:18.559 Agency cost, you know, can be right up there as the most expensive bill. 01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:31.199 Yeah, it can be, but I do also think that again it all comes down to it's all uh case by case because if you hire a really good agency for a good cost, that will actually save you more money. 01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:31.840 100%. 01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:35.119 But it's the it's the if the if's the key word, right? 01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:40.480 Like for a long time we don't charge this anymore, but for a long time we charge 2k plus VAT, right? 01:00:40.719 --> 01:01:01.440 That was the price point that sort of got us from being myself as a freelancer to get into like a full team of people, 30 plus clients, you know, team of 20 plus staff and all that sort of thing, where we charge 2k plus VAT, and for that you got Meta Ads management, Google Ads Management, and started at 30 creatives a month, and then it ended up being 50 a month, right? 01:01:01.519 --> 01:01:03.519 And it was all repurposing stacks and videos. 01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:13.760 We charged that up until a couple of years ago, and that 2k plus VAT per month for that set of deliverables, for you to go and actually hire those people individually. 01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:15.760 It's great value, it's unbelievable value. 01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:16.400 Unbelievable value. 01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:18.159 It's only unbelievable value because we're really good. 01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:18.480 Yeah. 01:01:18.639 --> 01:01:31.199 If you would have spent 2k plus VAT on that and we were terrible, and our strategy was outdated, and the designers were were outsourced, and the and the the statics and videos were shocking and the brand name was spelt wrong and all these things, then it wouldn't have been a good investment. 01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:32.719 But it's again it's that if innit? 01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:35.199 And it's credit, it's it's that's about credibility. 01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:35.440 Yeah. 01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:42.880 And that comes back to you're not needing salespeople, you need people who really are cred can credibly articulate what it is that you guys are gonna do. 01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:50.159 I would always rather spend if we had excess capital to deploy in the business, we would always spend that on people delivering the service rather than selling it. 01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:51.199 Hundred percent. 01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:56.880 Because um that's ultimately they're the people that are gonna keep clients here the longest. 01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:06.000 And our hit our North Star metrics as an agency, net revenue retention, logo chain, all these things are associated with retention and LTV, right? 01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:07.119 But they're aligned. 01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:16.400 What's interesting about that is you're aligning your own team with the outcome you want as a business, but what you're actually also doing is aligning with the outcome that the business needs. 01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:17.039 Yeah, exactly. 01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:22.079 And that's really positive because from the age from the brand side, often it doesn't feel like that. 01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:28.559 No, and I think the more you guys can talk about that and help a brand to feel like we're aligned with you. 01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:37.760 Like look we care about the same things, and even you're gonna help me, because I don't necessarily understand those things, so you're gonna teach me how to do them first, you're gonna teach me why that's important. 01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:39.360 Yeah, I think it's super valuable. 01:02:39.599 --> 01:02:45.920 I think aligned incentives are the one of the most important things in any relationship in life, whether it's um whether it's with your partner at home. 01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:51.199 Yeah, whoever it is, like whatever that relationship is, if you've got aligned incentives, it's probably gonna work better, right? 01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:52.960 You both pull in the same way. 01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:54.239 So I think that's key. 01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:57.440 Um How does someone exit a uh exit that deal? 01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:02.800 Let's say let's say they've got I mean you you know you know the agency space wet better than most. 01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:06.960 So let's say I'm tied into a long contract with an with an agency. 01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:10.480 Do I have any chance of getting out of that with some other agency? 01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:18.079 I mean, if you're tied down to a long contract and you signed on the dotted line, then uh in my opinion, as I think you've got to honour it. 01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:26.400

Unless they've breached the contract, if they've done something which the contract forbids them to do, then I think you've got to honour it because that's your responsibility. 01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:30.000 You you've signed on the dotted line, you've made that decision, right? 01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:32.559 Which again, as I said earlier, I think that's a bad decision. 01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:34.719 I would never sign a six-month contract. 01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:41.760 So for me, I think you've got to honour the contract, and I think it's a massively important thing as a as a human, like honour contracts that you sign. 01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:51.679 I hate people who don't honour contract, but it's we've had we've had so many brands over the years challenge, even when we used to do 14 days' notice, challenge that and try and get out today to skip the last payment. 01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:53.280 I think it's just terrible. 01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:55.440 I think you should always honour your contracts. 01:03:55.599 --> 01:04:04.159 Um, but I mean, to answer your question on how I would get out of it to go to another agency, I think I would just revert back to what we said earlier. 01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:05.679 That's the message though, isn't it? 01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:20.960 It's it's a bit more caution, and I think it's it's like any I think the way to think about brand agency, it is a relationship, and it needs just as much thought and care, collaboration, attention, and you know, the as you would have in a personal relationship outside of work. 01:04:21.119 --> 01:04:22.400 You've got to be cautious about it. 01:04:22.719 --> 01:04:30.079 I think collaboration's key, uh, and you've got to understand that it is a collaboration, and you know, it takes both sides to make it work. 01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:31.840 You can't just it's not a set and forget it. 01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:36.079 You don't hire this agency today and they solve all your problems, although they might say it in the sales process, right? 01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:37.760 And they're not gonna solve it straight away either. 01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:49.920 I think it does in and that's very difficult coming from me because you know I want gratification immediately, and that's and I think that's why I've always found the relationshi agency relationship difficult because it's just like I want it now. 01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:56.400 I think a lot of problems do come down to uh overpromising and underdelivering as well. 01:04:56.559 --> 01:05:10.000 I hate, I hate like when I hear from from prospects what they've been told in other pictures who we're competing with and stuff, and I I will just never get sucked into that tug of war and that that game of making stuff up to close the deal. 01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:11.840 It's not my style, it's not an approach. 01:05:12.159 --> 01:05:18.559 And all the time I hear, well, you know, they said that they they'd get us to this revenue point by this by three months, and I'm like, that's not true. 01:05:18.719 --> 01:05:19.440 They don't know that. 01:05:19.679 --> 01:05:20.320 They're guessing. 01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:21.280 That's literally a guess. 01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:29.199 Yeah, they've not put together a uh uh a proper forecast with a CFO, someone who does this all day, every day, then that means nothing. 01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:41.280 They're just pulling smoke from the air, like it's so I think when you analyse an ad account, like when when what so I'm a brand coming to you, uh thinking about using you. 01:05:41.840 --> 01:05:44.960 What what what's going on as you look at us? 01:05:45.039 --> 01:05:46.960 Like what what are you what are you thinking about? 01:05:47.039 --> 01:05:49.119 How are you evaluating what we're doing and so on? 01:05:49.199 --> 01:05:50.000 And what difference does it make? 01:05:50.480 --> 01:05:59.760 We don't ever pitch a brand until we've seen the data, plugged them into our dashboards and done a full 360 audit because uh for me the audit is how I understand. 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:04.159 And if we can help and how much we can help and how quick we can help, right? 01:06:04.400 --> 01:06:04.639 Interesting. 01:06:04.880 --> 01:06:11.039 And if I don't know any of them things, then I am just a salesman and I'm just trying to close as many deals as I can this month, not the way that we work. 01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:15.599 So we always do an audit, and in that audit, what we're looking at is those three things that I just said. 01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:18.079 It's like, okay, can we help this brand? 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:20.880 If we can, what does it look like? 01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:23.840 And how long is it going to take to get them where they want to be, right? 01:06:24.079 --> 01:06:25.199 And how would you articulate that? 01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:29.039 Is that to say when when you you present that back to me, how are you doing how are you showing that? 01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:43.360 Well, I mean, we do like a 60-page, really detailed audit, it's where we break down offer, meta, creative, Google, uh, we look at uh do a little bit of website piece, we look at your SKU level data, we look at so much. 01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:49.280 See, that's valuable for a brand, even if they don't end up working with you, that's a really valuable piece of feedback. 01:06:49.599 --> 01:07:00.800 So across that, like all those touch points we just said, there's obviously a lot of data there for us to look at and analyze, which gives us a good understanding of whether or not we can actually move the needle, because uh we won't bring a brand unless we can. 01:07:01.039 --> 01:07:05.360 And I think that is the power like of working with an agency. 01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:09.119 Because when I think about my own situation, we're quite siloed. 01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:18.320 So we we can only see one ad account, one experience of that, we can only get information from third parties who may

or may maybe not be telling the truth. 01:07:18.880 --> 01:07:27.840 Whereas you've got 70 clients, 70 ad accounts, the spend across those is far bigger than it's going to be across my one account. 01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:31.119 Yeah, so I think that is very valuable. 01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:37.679 Yeah, like and you and you can see different behaviour in different accounts and how that's impacting. 01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:42.960 And I think that does give you, in the right agency hands, a better, a better outcome. 01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:44.000 Definitely. 01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:47.280 I think that's one of the leverage points of of working with an agency. 01:07:47.360 --> 01:07:48.719 It's okay, you're a fashion brand. 01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:50.000 Well, I've got 25 of them. 01:07:50.079 --> 01:07:52.800 Yeah, you said you've had a bad week, everyone's had a bad week. 01:07:53.039 --> 01:07:54.000 You said you've had a bad week. 01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:56.320 Well, actually, most of us had a good week. 01:07:56.559 --> 01:07:58.559 So maybe, maybe did you change your offer? 01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:02.639 Well, okay, we can see in Shopify the change log, here's what you changed, here's why. 01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:04.800 So, like, that's the sort of advantage. 01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:08.400 And also, like, for example, partnership ads, just as an example. 01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:08.719 Yeah, yeah. 01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:10.800 Partnership ads are blown up, right? 01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:16.960 We had our brands running partnership ads probably nine to twelve months before it became the norm. 01:08:17.039 --> 01:08:17.359 Yeah. 01:08:17.520 --> 01:08:20.479 Because our meta advised us to do it in one account as a test. 01:08:20.560 --> 01:08:22.479 We did it in one account, we've seen how well it went bang. 01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:24.640 Immediate big message goes out to all clients. 01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:32.479 Yeah, we roll everyone out on this, so all of our clients then feel the benefit of it before it just gets competed down to where it is now. 01:08:32.960 --> 01:08:40.479 And that and that's another really big takeaway from the whole episode is that you know that's what you're getting when you work with a good agency. 01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:42.560 But again, it all comes back to good agency, right? 01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:43.119 It does. 01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:44.640 I think that's the key thing. 01:08:44.720 --> 01:08:54.079 I think the top and bottom of it would be the the onus is on the onus is on the brand and the founder to learn the skill set enough to be able to pick a good one from a bad one. 01:08:54.159 --> 01:08:54.479 Yep. 01:08:54.640 --> 01:09:01.520 I think stay safe in terms of you negotiating, no contracts, no long-term term lengths or anything like that. 01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:03.520 And I think invest enough. 01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:11.520 Like the brand needs to needs to be invest in the relationship, yeah, do the work that's required in order to to help the agency understand everything well enough. 01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:11.840 Yeah. 01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:17.359 But it is, you know, there needs to be a full commission commitment, brand side, to support the agency. 01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:18.800 Yeah, definitely. 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:23.680 And I think also you've just got to understand um what it looks like on both sides. 01:09:23.840 --> 01:09:29.279 I think the trends piece in terms of getting early access to those trends, like the partnership ads, is massive. 01:09:29.359 --> 01:09:31.760 I think it's like a trusted partner. 01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:43.600 I think I think many agencies, the the way that they that they operate is there's a big piece around the sales process, you know, on board and getting that customer, and then they forget about it. 01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:49.600 I think that's a real mistake because I almost think that's where the education really starts. 01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:58.800 And the more of a trusted partner become, the more time you spend educating clients, and I think that's probably still a role for you and Will. 01:09:59.039 --> 01:10:15.439 Like, like you've got the team managing the relationship the day to day, yeah, but I still think there's a piece for you guys to do educating your clients on on the next level stuff so that you keep them, you keep that regular, you keep that content, but you become a really trusted advisor then. 01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:16.479 Yeah, agreed. 01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:24.239 I think the advantage of doing that as well is that it would help you, you'd get maybe a lot more referrals and things like that would come through that. 01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:25.680 Yeah, yeah, definitely. 01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:30.000 I mean, even referrals for us at this stage is a massive like lead gen source for us. 01:10:30.079 --> 01:10:30.560 Yeah, of course. 01:10:30.880 --> 01:10:40.720 When you're at this this point and you've got 70 brands on board, we get one or two new deals that come from referrals every month because there's just that much like we're we're wide, you know, there's a lot of depth there now. 01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:46.800 So naturally it's it's it's big, and obviously when you're delivering good work, naturally people tell their friends old school word of mouth. 01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:51.840 Of course it is, it's so valuable, more powerful than than a lot of the the newer tactics that we see these days. 01:10:52.479 --> 01:10:54.319 Um but yeah, I think that's key. 01:10:54.399 --> 01:10:58.399 What I would what I would say is as well, um, is on deliverables. 01:10:58.479 --> 01:11:22.800 So like one thing I wanted to touch on is I say all the time to founders when I'm pitching and when I'm speak to prospects and stuff, like if your agency's just doing meta and Google Ad management, yeah, and that's it, and there's no creative, there's no offer conversation, there's no they're not able to go into your

landing page and give you advice on how you can improve things, fine-tune it, they're not able to go into your product level analysis in Shopify and give you feedback on that. 01:11:22.960 --> 01:11:28.880 If you're just paying for an agency to simply upload new creatives to meta that you're providing them with, that's mental. 01:11:29.119 --> 01:11:30.479 Yeah, they need to run a mile. 01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:32.640 I think I think I'll add to that, right? 01:11:32.800 --> 01:11:50.239 If if your agency is not digging into your offer, your your cogs, your entire money model that you're using to sell product, you should run a mile from them because you cannot run ads in any meaningful way without knowing all of those things. 01:11:50.560 --> 01:11:59.039 No, I think that's massive, and it's still, you know, to yourself it might sound crazy, but like I'm still seeing it all the time now in 2026 when I'm auditing accounts. 01:11:59.199 --> 01:12:01.840 I'm like, your creative's low, you know, you don't have a lot of volume. 01:12:01.920 --> 01:12:05.119 Well, you know, we just send the agency new creators whenever we get around to it. 01:12:05.359 --> 01:12:10.640 All the time I heard this now, and I'm like, you do realize your agency's charging you retainers to just upload creative. 01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:10.880 Yeah. 01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:14.560 There's not any you can use a piece of software, but like we've got our own that does it. 01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:22.800 Ad Synth that we built, proprietary tech that we built to do this our growth strategy is upload hundreds of creatives into AdSynth and within a second they're all live in meta. 01:12:23.199 --> 01:12:27.760 If they was doing what these other agencies are doing, they'd go and put the feet up and finish for the day, five minutes work a day. 01:12:27.920 --> 01:12:32.640 Like, and this, but and again, a lot of that comes back down to the onus on the founder of the brand. 01:12:32.800 --> 01:12:37.439 You shouldn't engage in that partnership without those deliverables being right and it being worthless. 01:12:37.920 --> 01:12:42.640 And agreeing what those what those are gonna look like, who's gonna do the work, who's gonna do all the thinking surrounding it. 01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:44.880 I mean, because that is a huge part of it. 01:12:45.039 --> 01:12:52.880 You know, when when I think about inside my own ad account, and we've touched on this before, but you know, we're we're adding between two and three hundred new ads every single day. 01:12:53.039 --> 01:12:53.359 Yeah. 01:12:53.520 --> 01:13:01.039 So you now, with the way Andromeda is, you've got to have big creative volume, you've got to have creative diversity, and you've got to have quality. 01:13:01.199 --> 01:13:03.199 You need all three of those things now. 01:13:03.439 --> 01:13:14.079 And most brands don't either understand that, aren't geared up for that, but your your agency is not going to be successful for you unless you're in partnership to produce all of that. 01:13:14.319 --> 01:13:16.560 And your agency also should be driving that conversation. 01:13:16.640 --> 01:13:16.800 Yeah. 01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:17.119 Right? 01:13:17.199 --> 01:13:20.319 They should be coming to you and saying we need we need 10x your volume, right? 01:13:21.039 --> 01:13:24.399 And not just one or two exits, you're right when you say 10x, that is the key number. 01:13:24.720 --> 01:13:29.279 We need a 10xit, and how can we put systems in place to make the content more diverse? 01:13:29.439 --> 01:13:34.319 You know, what can you do on your end to give us more diverse, you know, raw content and all these sort of things. 01:13:34.560 --> 01:13:36.000 And that's the education process again. 01:13:36.079 --> 01:13:36.239 Yeah. 01:13:36.399 --> 01:13:41.119 Like how you you kind of it's I've got an expression in my own business around staff. 01:13:41.199 --> 01:13:43.600 You know, managers get the staff they deserve, right? 01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:47.439 Like, you know, good managers get great staff, you know, mad managers and so on. 01:13:47.520 --> 01:13:49.520 And I wonder if the same is true in an agency. 01:13:49.680 --> 01:13:51.600 You know, great agencies get great brands. 01:13:51.840 --> 01:13:58.239 It's true, you know, because they're able to figure out that working relationship in order to bring the best out of the brand. 01:13:58.479 --> 01:14:04.800 Well, I think it's true with us because if they're not a great brand and they're not a good operator, they just don't last very long because we let them go. 01:14:04.960 --> 01:14:05.199 Yeah. 01:14:05.359 --> 01:14:13.359 Because like our our pods, we've got nine pods, uh, ten pods, and we have a seven cliven-client maximum in every pod. 01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:16.399 But what's interesting is they don't necessarily start like that. 01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:19.199 It's how the brand responds to working with you as well. 01:14:19.520 --> 01:14:24.159 Like they they're receptive to you giving them ideas, giving them encouragement. 01:14:24.479 --> 01:14:34.479 If they somehow, yeah, if they're not a good operator and not a good brand, and they somehow make it through our sales process and they they're a salesman themselves and they sell to me, it happens, it happens. 01:14:34.880 --> 01:14:35.359 Of course it does. 01:14:35.520 --> 01:14:35.760 Right. 01:14:35.840 --> 01:14:38.159 If that happens, they don't see it past three months. 01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:49.520 Because as soon as we identify that they're not right for us, based on their you know, receptiveness, based on what they're actually providing us with, based on how they're are they pointing the finger at us because people love to do that, right? 01:14:49.680 --> 01:14:50.880 They don't last very long with us. 01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:56.800 So you're right, a good agency, you know, deals with those sites of clients in the right way, because for me it's an opportunity

cost. 01:14:57.039 --> 01:15:03.039 Of course it is, and and I think from the brand side, it starts to make you realise that price isn't actually that important. 01:15:03.279 --> 01:15:04.960 What's important is the outcome. 01:15:05.520 --> 01:15:09.760 So the the price that an agency charges is almost uh almost irrelevant. 01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:10.880 Yeah, to a certain degree. 01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:16.960 It it it's it's actually do you it does it represent value for money give for giving me the outcome that that that I want? 01:15:17.119 --> 01:15:17.920 Can you deliver that? 01:15:18.159 --> 01:15:22.079 I think again it all comes down to the person and the and the the agency. 01:15:22.239 --> 01:15:39.119 I mean, I when I was a freelancer going back five four or five years ago, I was you would have got me at an incredibly good price, and the value for that price would have been immense just because of how how much of an obsessive I was, same way you are, same as I am now, learning all the time, developing and improving. 01:15:39.439 --> 01:15:42.800 But again, that's an anomaly because most freelancers aren't like that. 01:15:43.520 --> 01:15:47.680 Most freelancers will charge you peanuts and they won't even look at your account, right? 01:15:47.840 --> 01:15:50.000 So again, I think it comes down to the person. 01:15:50.159 --> 01:15:51.760 Um they've got to do the homework. 01:15:51.920 --> 01:15:54.319 Brands have got to do more homework on it. 01:15:54.560 --> 01:16:11.840 They've got to do more homework, but I do think the price thing is uh I do think the price thing I think you're right to a certain degree, but at the same time, if I'm going to an agency and I can see from the outside in that this is a fairly sized agency, let's say 20 people plus, right? 01:16:12.319 --> 01:16:21.439 If they're if they're 20 people plus and their fees are really cheap, I'm talking subtech 2K a month for multiple services, that to me is a massive red flag. 01:16:21.680 --> 01:16:22.079 Of course it is. 01:16:22.239 --> 01:16:39.119 Because purely from a unit economic standpoint, knowing how much people cost, how much you know, pay UIE tax we pay, employee tax, VA, everything else, just the cost to run a business in the UK, you cannot make that work at scale for those cheap prices unless you're doing one of two things. 01:16:39.279 --> 01:16:45.359 You're either filling your growth strategists up to having 20 plus accounts to the point where they don't have time to think about any of them. 01:16:45.439 --> 01:16:46.239 That's option one. 01:16:46.399 --> 01:16:50.560 Option B is your accounts getting outsourced or somewhere that you don't even know exists, right? 01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:53.439 They're the two outcomes and they're both very probable outcomes. 01:16:53.680 --> 01:16:54.720 It's the age-old thing, isn't it? 01:16:54.800 --> 01:16:57.279 If a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is it probably is. 01:16:57.680 --> 01:17:01.760 And

and brands have to be honest with themselves about that. 01:17:02.000 --> 01:17:03.760 You know, you don't get anything for nothing. 01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:11.920 What do you we've talked a lot about price, but we haven't actually, I mean, prices uh high prices and low prices mean different things to different people, right? 01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:15.920 So as a guy that owns a brand 20 mil plus a year, right? 01:17:16.880 --> 01:17:19.920 What is you you've said a few times price doesn't mean much. 01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:24.880 What what to use a fair price for say, let's say Meta Google 100 creatives a month now? 01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:27.359 What's a fair price for you for that service? 01:17:27.520 --> 01:17:28.640 It's it's interesting, isn't it? 01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:43.760 I I I when when I had the most recent meta arrangement that that we had was had a percentage of our ad spend. 01:17:44.880 --> 01:17:45.600 I hate that model. 01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:46.560 And I hated it. 01:17:46.800 --> 01:17:52.720 I hated it because you know at that time we were spending six hundred and fifty grand a month on meta. 01:17:53.359 --> 01:17:56.239 And and I mean that's that's a lot of money. 01:17:57.520 --> 01:18:01.680 I think we ended up on six percent. 01:18:02.399 --> 01:18:07.119 So I mean the bill was like thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty-five, forty grand a month. 01:18:07.359 --> 01:18:07.760 Mental. 01:18:07.920 --> 01:18:08.800 It was mental. 01:18:09.359 --> 01:18:11.760 And it weren't it it wasn't it didn't warrant that. 01:18:12.000 --> 01:18:12.159 Yeah. 01:18:12.399 --> 01:18:14.960 It weren't it wasn't that much extra work to to manage that. 01:18:15.039 --> 01:18:24.960 And we were still having to provide the creative and you know, like it was just so I d I'm not a fan, if I'm if I'm truth be told, of percentage. 01:18:25.359 --> 01:18:26.479 Neither we moved away from it. 01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:27.039 Have you? 01:18:27.199 --> 01:18:31.439 Yeah, I I didn't I didn't want to draw you in as I didn't know what your um what your what how you did that. 01:18:31.760 --> 01:18:32.800 We're completely flat now. 01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:42.159 We used to be what we used to do is for a very long time is we did flat 2k plus VAT, and then if you your ad spend was 20k or more, it then moved to a 10%, right? 01:18:42.399 --> 01:18:44.800 We did that for a for a good period of time. 01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:58.720 We moved away from that many long time ago now, and the reason we moved away from it is because the agency got to a certain point in terms of staff headcount and stuff, where the percentage model doesn't work anymore when it comes to realising our finances, right? 01:18:58.880 --> 01:18:59.760 Let's say pod A. 01:18:59.920 --> 01:19:04.399 And it's not it doesn't it doesn't reward it in it rewards you for just spending, spending, spending more money. 01:19:04.479 --> 01:19:05.920 So you're not aligned with the brand. 01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:15.920 And the problem for us became like pod A is extremely profitable in February because client A scales up so much, but in March, client A runs out of stock. 01:19:16.079 --> 01:19:18.560 That same pod is now extremely unprofitable, right? 01:19:18.800 --> 01:19:19.039 Interesting. 01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:24.079 So it creates this like volatility, which volatility for any business when it comes to finances is not good. 01:19:24.319 --> 01:19:28.239 You want stability, you want to be able to understand how much profit a pod's gonna generate. 01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:33.199 But also from a brand's perspective, it's actually much better to do what you're doing because for the same reason. 01:19:33.439 --> 01:19:41.520 Yeah, because for the same reason, because I know that I'm gonna my I pay X amount, and that's in equivalent gonna buy a proportion of your pod's time. 01:19:41.600 --> 01:19:41.680 Yeah. 01:19:41.840 --> 01:19:48.720 You know, and and if I pay a bit more, I might get, you know, I might get half the pod's time or a quarter of the pod's time, or however many, however much you split it. 01:19:48.880 --> 01:19:50.319 Well I think that's much better. 01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:51.359 Yeah, I agree. 01:19:51.439 --> 01:19:57.520 I think on the brand side, I have a budget for an agency, right, across a year. 01:19:57.760 --> 01:20:00.399 Let's say, for argument's sake, 60 grand, right? 01:20:00.479 --> 01:20:04.640 So I'm gonna spend 60 grand on this on this TikTok shop agency this year. 01:20:04.720 --> 01:20:04.880 Yep. 01:20:05.039 --> 01:20:07.680 That's my budget, that's what we're spending, that's it. 01:20:07.840 --> 01:20:15.600 Whereas on the percentage of spend model or percentage of GMV model, it could go crazy, which makes it difficult for me to understand my finances as well on the brand side. 01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:16.800 So But what do you think? 01:20:16.880 --> 01:20:17.680 Obviously that exactly. 01:20:17.920 --> 01:20:18.560 So I love that. 01:20:18.720 --> 01:20:36.000 I love what you're doing, and I think you should be really transparent about that because I didn't uh I mean we've known each other a while now, and I didn't know that's what your pricing model is, and I and I think it's actually worth you talking a lot more about that more publicly because it kind of caused it in a sense it's what we were talking about earlier. 01:20:36.079 --> 01:20:40.960 You're kind of you know standing up against like we're the non-agency agency sort of thing. 01:20:41.199 --> 01:20:45.760 Yeah, well, I think percentage of spend or rev models only work for a certain period of time. 01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:49.760 I think there's a point in time where they just don't work anymore for for an agency that is. 01:20:50.319 --> 01:20:50.960 And I hated them. 01:20:51.039 --> 01:21:08.399 I I absolutely hate them, and it's actually why I dislike the Shopify ecosystem in the same respect, because so many of the apps are because I come from a

WooCommerce world, you know, which is uh open source from WordPress at originally, and and there you typically bought plugins and you hone you own them. 01:21:08.640 --> 01:21:19.520 You know, it's open source software, whereas in within Shopify, it's uh it's all done on a either a percentage of revenue or it's uh number of transactions you're doing, and and I and I think that's a nightmare. 01:21:19.760 --> 01:21:20.159 Nightmare. 01:21:20.319 --> 01:21:22.079 Um so we've obviously not got long left. 01:21:22.159 --> 01:21:31.840 I think a good place for us to end then would be you obviously talked about that extreme example there where you're paying six percent of our spend, spending six hundred and fifty grand a month or whatever it was. 01:21:32.000 --> 01:21:40.560 Um so for you, for let's say a brand five to twenty million a year of revenue, what's a fair, realistic retainer? 01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:47.600 What should their retainer budget be for an agency to deliver those corpory meta Google creative, you know, good volume? 01:21:47.840 --> 01:21:59.279 I I'm gonna answer that with a bit of a question based on their ad spend a little bit, because you know, there's you can't you can't be spending thousands of pounds on that if your ad spend's only very small. 01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:05.279 But if they're if the revs five to twelve five to ten mil range, then you operate on a free blender typically. 01:22:06.079 --> 01:22:09.840 I'm gonna give you a different example then on conver on my CRO bill. 01:22:10.000 --> 01:22:10.399 Yeah, I know. 01:22:10.560 --> 01:22:10.720 Right? 01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:14.319 So so so my CRO bill, uh it costs me five grand a month. 01:22:14.560 --> 01:22:20.960 Okay, and that feels a fair price for for the for the the amount of support that I that I get from that. 01:22:21.439 --> 01:22:25.760 Um and so that feels that feels right. 01:22:26.560 --> 01:22:27.680 Yeah, that's fair. 01:22:27.920 --> 01:22:34.560 Um and then another question just to finish with you've obviously said about bad experiences with agencies and stuff. 01:22:34.720 --> 01:22:40.560 At what point in your business now, because there's been a lot of talk about when is a brand ready for an agency. 01:22:40.720 --> 01:22:47.600 So at what at what point in what scenario are you do you feel like you need an agency and you should hire one versus maybe you shouldn't? 01:22:48.479 --> 01:22:58.399 I think once you have uh figured something out, you've you've got started with it, that the founder has only got a certain amount of time. 01:22:58.560 --> 01:22:58.960 Yeah, yeah. 01:22:59.359 --> 01:23:02.960 And so you have to figure out what the best use of your time is. 01:23:03.439 --> 01:23:10.079 Uh you have to learn these skills to begin with, but do you do you need to learn it to become world-class? 01:23:10.159 --> 01:23:12.880 Well, that's a five or ten year timescale to do that. 01:23:12.960 --> 01:23:14.880 So that's so that's not a good use of their time. 01:23:15.199 --> 01:23:21.840 So I think learn it to begin with, then bring an agency in, unless it's going to be your core passion, like it is for me. 01:23:22.079 --> 01:23:26.479 And at what point do you think a brand needs uh in terms of revenue or spend levels? 01:23:26.640 --> 01:23:27.920 At what point do you think an agency's that's a good idea? 01:23:28.079 --> 01:23:32.479 I I don't think it's I I think if you're sub a million, you should be doing it yourself in ref 100%. 01:23:32.800 --> 01:23:33.760 You should be doing it yourself. 01:23:33.920 --> 01:23:37.199 Probably even sub two or three million, you should still be doing it yourself. 01:23:37.920 --> 01:23:39.359 At that point, you've got a really good skill set. 01:23:39.520 --> 01:23:48.000 Yeah, you've got by that time you you've figured out acquisition, you you're starting to grow, and then I think, and you've got a little bit of money sloshing around there. 01:23:48.079 --> 01:23:48.880 I think that's the time. 01:23:49.279 --> 01:23:52.319 You don't want to be spending your last thousand quid on paying any agency. 01:23:52.640 --> 01:23:53.840 And you can afford a good one at that point. 01:23:54.560 --> 01:23:56.560 And don't bother, and don't bother with bad agencies. 01:23:56.720 --> 01:23:56.800 No. 01:23:56.960 --> 01:23:58.399 It's the it's it's simply not worth it. 01:23:58.479 --> 01:24:00.880 Either do it yourself or take on a good agency. 01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:02.479 Don't don't accept a bad one. 01:24:02.720 --> 01:24:09.359 And I think at that point you've you're a lucrative enough opportunity in a brand for a good agency to want to work with you as well. 01:24:09.600 --> 01:24:09.840 Exactly. 01:24:09.920 --> 01:24:12.479 And I also think you're at the point where you can start to scale. 01:24:12.640 --> 01:24:21.680 Like a good agency, if you're sat at two, three, four million, a good agency is going to really turbocharge that growth up to ten million and beyond relatively easily. 01:24:22.000 --> 01:24:24.159 Because they've already got the systems built out to do it. 01:24:24.479 --> 01:24:28.239 And may well avoid some quite significant mistakes that you can make on your own. 01:24:28.560 --> 01:24:29.039 Definitely. 01:24:29.199 --> 01:24:31.279 Um, but yeah, I think that's a good place to finish. 01:24:31.359 --> 01:24:34.239 We're obviously we've got the timer on, we ran out of time, shock. 01:24:34.479 --> 01:24:42.239 I think we did the same on the last one, but I think that's a really good topic today, and I think there's a lot of value that brands can take from that for sure. 01:24:42.479 --> 01:24:42.880 I hope so. 01:24:43.520 --> 01:24:44.800 I I think it's a fascinating area. 01:24:44.880 --> 01:24:45.760 I've enjoyed talking about it. 01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:46.399 Yeah, nice. 01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:47.359 Appreciate your time, mate. 01:24:47.439 --> 01:24:48.800 We'll uh we'll get another one in soon. 01:24:48.960 --> 01:24:49.520 Yeah, that's good. 01:24:49.600 --> 01:24:50.319 Thank you for having me.