Episode 66: “Seeing Clearly: Empathy, Accountability, and the Courage to Connect” with Dr. Ben Freer ၏ စာသားမှတ်တမ်းအပြည့်အစုံ

has learned about listening, diplomacy, and human connection through more than a decade of work connected to the United Nations. 00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:01.919 And toward the end of our conversation, Ben offers a beautiful challenge that I think all of us should take seriously. 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:06.400 Think about someone who helps shape your life and make sure they know it. 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:09.199 This is a conversation about empathy. 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:14.240 But even more than that, it's a conversation about what it means to truly see another human being. 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:16.879 I hope you enjoyed this wonderful conversation with Dr. 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:18.000 Ben Freer. 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.840 Ben, thank you for joining us on the Flourishing Leaders Podcast. 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:24.159 Thank you so much for having me, Scott and Jason. 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:25.919 I'm really excited for the conversation. 00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:27.759 We're really excited too, Ben. 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:30.560 And we're going to talk about all things empathy today. 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:35.280 We're going to go from empathy to the United Nations and from accountability to the empathy center. 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:39.759 But before we get to all of that goodness, we always ask our guests the same first question. 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.879 What does the phrase flourishing leader mean to you? 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:43.759 Thanks so much. 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:47.280 As a dedicated listener, I've been looking forward to this question. 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:54.240 And so a flourishing leader to me is first, it starts with the ability for that individual to flourish, right? 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:59.599 To evaluate and assess their own level of flourishing in all aspects of their life, right? 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:04.560 Their professional space, their personal space, their spiritual space, their relational space. 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:12.560 And once you've really considered all aspects of who you are, only then can you really be a flourishing leader for others, right? 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:20.240 And it always reminds me of that analogy, right, we use with the oxygen masks on the plane, that you've got to put your mask on first, right? 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:32.879 And so a flourishing leader puts their mask on first, but then does everything they can to position everyone else to make sure their masks are on and that they can take care of their own safety, security, well-being. 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:43.519 Once that's established and accomplished, flourishing leaders are creating this environment where everyone has the opportunity to flourish in the way that's empowering to them. 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:44.560 I love that. 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:45.759 I love it also, Ben. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:47.279 And what a beautiful image. 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:53.519 You know, I think so many of us are so good at taking care of ourselves or so good at taking care of other people. 00:04:53.600 --> 00:05:01.360 But your definition of a flourishing leader is inviting one to take care of themselves and then to do everything they can to take care of others. 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:09.839 Yeah, I think so important, and you'll hear throughout this conversation, right, that that we don't want to be individuals uh unto ourselves. 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:17.120 That we're really we're relational, we're social creatures, and so we've got to take better account of how we're operating in our world. 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:18.560 Absolutely amazing, Ben. 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:24.560 And you've devoted so much of your career to understanding empathy, leadership, learning, and human connection. 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:26.560 I'd love to begin personally. 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:30.480 What first drew you toward psychology and empathy research? 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.519 Was there a particular experience, mentor, insight? 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:37.279 What made you realize that this would become such a central part of your life's work? 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:37.920 Thank you. 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:41.600 Yeah, this was uh this is such a fun thought to have, right? 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:48.079 And so I really think about three time points in my life that that have brought me to this place with psychology and empathy. 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:52.879 The first is my childhood, and I was so fortunate to have the parents that that I was born to. 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:55.839 None of my, you're right, I did nothing to deserve that. 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:00.160 And, you know, the my dad was the assistant principal at the high school I went to. 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:04.000 My mom was the guidance counselor in the school system that I went to. 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:20.079 And I just so clearly remember conversations with both of my parents, but primarily my mom, where we would talk about the power of understanding other people and the work that she was doing with children and families that were in the same school that I was in, but were dealing with issues that I had no clue, right? 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:21.600 It was so foreign to me. 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:29.360 And so I remember just having these moments of, I can't believe there's a kid at my school going through what you're dealing with with them. 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:31.040 Man, am I lucky? 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:36.000 And how do I figure out a way to impact families in the way that my mom is and that my dad is? 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:44.720 The second was in my undergraduate time at Valparaiso University, I was a psychology major and a minor in social work and biology. 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:52.560 And I had a social work professor who told a story about a vacation he had been on with his wife, who was also a faculty member at the university. 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:54.000 And they'd had a difficult day. 00:06:54.079 -->

00:06:57.680 They were kind of sniping at each other, and it got to the end of the day, right? 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.959 Kind of past midnight, and they were kind of done with each other. 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:03.920 And she said, You know, I just I gotta get away from you, right? 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:05.120 I I just need some peace. 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:07.439 And he said, Oh, you know what works so well for me? 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:10.560 We're on this island, you know, no one will be at the beach. 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:15.439 Go take an hour walk, look at the waves, it'll be so peaceful and relaxing. 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:19.040 And she kind of laughed and said, That's not something I can do. 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:21.920 I'm a young woman, we're in a foreign country. 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:29.360 I'm not gonna take a walk somewhere by myself because if something happens to me, the the comments aren't gonna be, oh, that's so terrible that that happened. 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:31.439 It's what did she expect was gonna happen? 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:34.480 Why would why would she be putting herself in that harm's way? 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:43.120 And it was really one of the first times as an adult that I got that opportunity to think about this really valuable aspect of context, right? 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:52.800 And past experiences that an idea that was so perfect from his perspective and would have been from mine was idiotic from his wife's perspective, right? 00:07:52.879 --> 00:08:02.720 And so that was the kernel, right, of that empathy of, you know, really having to understand not only what's best for me, but what makes sense for other people as well. 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:16.399 And then my third was much more recent in my faculty time at Fairley Dickinson University, when I met my colleague Steve Dranoff, who he and I would go on to co-found the Empathy Center, and he's the director uh back in 2022. 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:23.600 And to that point, my work was really focused on you know, how do we create environments where families can thrive and can flourish? 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.680 Although I wasn't using the word flourish back then in 2018 or before. 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:40.720 But Steve had been doing work in the empathy space for many years, and I just immediately became a voracious uh reader and learner of empathy, and it just aligned with everything that had led me to that place, right? 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:50.960 Of empathy is connecting with people, both from your own perspective and from theirs, and finding that meld of those two perspectives. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:58.080 And that's what really energized Steve and I in our work to bring empathy to organizations, to communities, and society. 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.360 Well, you gave us a little hint for the next question I have. 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:11.279 You kind of teed it up beautifully about this idea of melding our own ideas and those that

we have relationships, whether it's work or family or or other. 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:19.919 You know, I recently had a conversation with Penn State University professor Pete Allison on the podcast, and I referenced your idea that empathy is binocular. 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:21.840 That's the little golden nugget there. 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:27.679 The ability to truly see another person's experience while still maintaining perspective and discernment. 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:31.919 And Pete and I also discussed the distinctions between pity, empathy, and compassion. 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:36.559 And I encourage all the listeners, if you missed that episode, to go check that out because it's really interesting. 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:40.080 But you know what, Ben, I'd really love to hear you unpack this idea. 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:42.639 What do you mean by binocular empathy? 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:44.720 And why is that distinction so important today? 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:49.120 And you, and if you also want to go back and discuss pity, empathy, and compassion, I won't be mad. 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:49.840 Wonderful. 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:50.159 Yeah. 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.799 So I mean that conversation with Peter sounds really interesting. 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:54.480 I can't wait for that episode. 00:09:54.639 --> 00:10:02.080 So I'll start with binocular perspective and then I'll I'll probably weave in pity, sympathy, empathy, and compassion as I go. 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:10.639 But so binocular perspective of empathy is really intentionally addressing the inherent challenge that we really think people face with empathy. 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:15.759 And that for most people, the conceptualization of empathy is what we call other centric. 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:17.679 It's focused on the other person, right? 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:22.960 It's putting yourself in their shoes, feeling the world from their perspective, which is excellent, right? 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:24.799 And we do that, and that's great. 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:39.440 But when you position yourself in that way where you're showing empathy, and to do that is by you know doing favors for people, um, or saying no and feeling like a narcissistic, selfish dirt. 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:40.000 Right. 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:52.480 And so, right, like that doesn't feel like a good choice of always doing for others and feeling good about ourselves, but probably being overworked and overwhelmed, or saying no and feeling like we don't care about others. 00:10:52.720 --> 00:11:10.879 And what I think we've found that's been really empowering is that a lot of people that we engage with in the empathy training came and said, you know, I thought I was going to be told what I was doing was wrong, but instead I'm learning that I'm probably a little too empathetic for other people. 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:12.960 And I need to be protective of myself, right? 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:15.120 I need to have a little bit better self-empathy. 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.639 And I'd wager that many of your listeners are like me, right? 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.320 That we have the tendency to overextend ourselves by helping others. 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:24.720 And that's great, but it's that dark side, right? 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:28.000 That leads to that compassion fatigue, that burnout. 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:39.200 And we need to get out of this kind of perception of the world of dichotomists, where it's either I do for other people and I feel good, or I don't feel good for other people and I feel guilt and shame. 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:46.320 And so it's what we really want to focus on is what we often talk about is empowering people to find their empathetic no. 00:11:46.559 --> 00:12:00.559 And so when I'm balancing the wants and needs of someone else with the wants and needs of myself, now I can get to this place of hearing another person, listening to another person, trying to understand. 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:04.799 I'm a big believer that we can't truly understand someone else, but we can try. 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.480 And that when we do that, they feel the empathy. 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:18.639 They feel the connection, whether you give them what they want or not, because sometimes we can't based on our responsibilities, our roles, our own energy in space. 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.960 And we need to be better at feeling ourselves so that we can serve others. 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:26.799 What about the distinction between pity, empathy, and compassion? 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:27.919 Do you want to address that? 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:30.480 Yeah, no, I I love that conversation. 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:32.399 It's something that we talk a lot about. 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:38.080 And I think a really key element that I'm actually going to start from the opposite end, right? 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:43.039 Is that compassion is, you know, to us is empathy plus action. 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:43.519 Right. 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:50.960 So you've got to have this foundation of empathy where we're thinking and hearing other people, right? 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:54.320 We're thinking about and hearing other people so that we can connect. 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.519 But you can't be compassionate without that empathy, right? 00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:59.919 Without that understanding of what the other person wants. 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:05.679 Otherwise, we're just acting in what we would want, which isn't meaningful, which isn't powerful, right? 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:11.919 Sympathy then is often more focused on the individual feeling that sympathy. 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:23.039 It is, you know, saying the right things that happen in a negative situation, a negative context, but it's not really connecting, right? 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:35.279 And and I don't know if you've seen uh Brene Brown has just a beautiful uh

video in TED Talk where she really distinguishes, makes that distinction between sympathy and empathy that I think is so powerful. 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:42.000 And then pity is that first step, right, where you care about people, but they're almost less than, right? 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:49.279 They're you're often infantilizing them, and you're it's this feeling of sorrow that doesn't build connection. 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:52.879 It actually increases otherness of that individual. 00:13:53.120 --> 00:14:07.840 And so, you know, we're so interested in especially that distinction between that that sympathy that will often alienate and really do more service to the individual giving the sympathy than the person receiving it at times. 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:10.960 That empathy of building that bridge, that connection. 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:17.039 And only once that bridge is built can we get to the compassion itself and the action coming from the empathy. 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:18.960 Thanks for thanks for that distinction. 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:19.679 That was great. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:25.840 And I think that's fascinating and particularly the point that pity increases otherness. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:31.279 And it seems to me that we're in a time where this otherness is so notorious. 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:37.279 We have polarization, burnout, distrust, fragmentation, all the things that we are going through. 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:44.799 And I'm just curious, why do you believe that empathy has become such an urgent leadership and societal issue today? 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:45.600 Thank you. 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:55.759 I I'm gonna start in a way that you may not expect in saying that empathy as traditionally defined and practiced is actually not that great, we don't think. 00:14:55.919 --> 00:15:04.559 And you know, empathy as traditionally defined as related to greater likelihood of burnout with people with higher empathy, greater likely of compassion fatigue. 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:10.000 They're more likely to make decisions that are focused on short-term outcomes rather than long-term consequences. 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.919 They're also more likely to be influenced by their own biases and prejudices, right? 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:20.720 And so actually, when we launched the empathy center, I had a number of colleagues reach out to me and say, Ben, what are you doing? 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.000 You've you've chosen the wrong concept here, right? 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:26.559 That should be the compassion center instead. 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:35.679 And, you know, I heard it, I listened, but Steve and I have been really intentional because, like I mentioned a few moments ago, we view compassion as empathy plus action, right? 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.600 And so we can't get to that action until we've got the empathy. 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:46.240 And empathy is about creating that foundation by which we can show that compassion. 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:51.759 And so I understood the pushback for my colleagues, but we weren't choosing the wrong concept. 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:58.480 But what we what was really important is something that we really talk a lot about, which is we're redefining empathy for the 21st century. 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:09.279 And so to us, empathy is important because we're in a society where, you know, a few years ago the US Surgeon General came out with that loneliness epidemic report, right? 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.120 And it's but it's not a US, you know, specific thing. 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:16.480 This is a global phenomenon that we're seeing across the world. 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:20.159 People feel disconnected, but they want to be connected. 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:25.200 People need to feel heard, they need to be listened to and to be understood. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:36.480 But when individuals feel like they belong to a community and they feel connected within that community, all of a sudden all these negative mental health outcomes and others go down. 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:40.960 And these positives of thriving and flourishing and happiness go up. 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:47.840 And so, you know, what we're really looking for is to position people to flourish and be happy. 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:51.679 Well, you can't do that if you don't have meaningful connections in your world. 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:52.960 We're social creatures. 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:55.679 We need those connections, we thrive on those connections. 00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:11.440 And so it's been so exciting to meet with leaders of organizations throughout the country and in the world who yearn for creating organizations that are built on connections for their community so that we can move forward into more fulfilling lives. 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:23.519 You know, on the Empathy Center website, and I've heard you say this quite a few times, something really provocative, and I absolutely love it, is that you argue that empathy is not a soft skill, but a strategic skill. 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.480 Maybe I should confess now that I've also been using that phrase. 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:27.440 So thank you for that. 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.200 That's my citation for the day. 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:39.920 I would love for you to explain what you mean when you say that and why do you think organizations increasingly recognize empathy as essential to healthy culture and effective leadership? 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.759 Yeah, I'm I'm so glad you picked up on our intentional use there, right? 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:44.640 On the website. 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:53.359 Uh, and being really mindful, right, to switch out of this idea of soft skills that are really belittled, right, and demeaned as not meaningful, right? 00:17:53.680 --> 00:18:01.599 And really thinking about this as strategic and essential to the success of organizations and the success of

all of our relationships, right? 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:06.000 Where, you know, I'm I talk a lot about the professional space, but all of this, right? 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.559 Empathy is a very personal aspect of how we build these relationships. 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:20.880 And so when we're thinking about the success of our organizations, our relationship, you know, there's two aspects that I think, you know, empathy, especially within an organizational culture, are just so essential, right? 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:26.960 And so it's really thinking first about an individual beyond their role as an employee, right? 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:29.279 That they're a human being that matters. 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:29.839 Exactly. 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.240 And there's overwhelming evidence, right? 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:38.160 That companies that foster community and connection for their employees enjoy many benefits, right? 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:42.000 And positive C organization, employees call out sick less often. 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:46.079 They intend to stay in the job longer and then do stay in the job longer. 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:46.640 Exactly. 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:57.839 And so these organizations have this benefit of aspiring to create the hope and the connection so that people want to stay in that position for the rest of their career, at least within that organization. 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:07.759 The second reason is that we need to be aware that empathy matters and that companies based in empathy will actually see a better return on their investment, right? 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:18.640 That they will actually cut down on cost and improve outcomes of revenue opportunities because when people feel supported and connected, they're more productive. 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:20.799 They're more creative problem solvers. 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:24.160 They enjoy the work they're doing, so they're more motivated by it. 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:31.839 And I think really importantly, when empathy is fostered within a community, psychological safety flourishes, right? 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:32.640 It goes up. 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:53.200 And so what's so powerful about this is when conflict happens, which we know will happen, people feel empowered to engage with that conflict and talk about that conflict before it gets to these larger problems that happen in programs and organizations of you know, harassment and violence and anger and hostility. 00:19:53.440 --> 00:20:04.319 And so when we have an empathetic organization, the people feel more valued, they're more productive, and this conflict goes down because it's addressed at an earlier stage. 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:10.559 And that's what we should be hoping and aspiring for our organizations, as well as in society more largely and broadly. 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:12.480 I absolutely love that, Ben. 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:13.519 And I'm curious. 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:22.319 You and

your team identify five core empathy skills: cues, pulling the curtain, shifting boundaries and feelings. 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:28.559 Could you tell us a little bit more about which of those skills you think leaders struggle with most today and why? 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:37.039 Yeah, I I'll start with just a brief definition of each of these core empathy skills and then talk about where these challenges exist. 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:46.319 I think really important to start this is that we really take the perspective that empathy is a naturally occurring kind of innate quality in human beings, right? 00:20:46.400 --> 00:21:02.880 That we are social creatures and that our empathy work isn't about taking flawed humans and teaching them how to be empathetic, but rather empowering people who want to be empathetic into realizing those skills and utilizing them in meaningful ways. 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.680 And so of these five skills, the first is cues, as you said, right? 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:14.799 And that's is identifying and understanding the verbal and nonverbal information in your environment, seeing our surroundings, right? 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:24.480 The second, that pulling the curtain, is examining the underlying motivation in these interpersonal interactions and trying to better understand and hear the people around us. 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:32.480 Third is what we call shifting, which is moving from this immediate kind of emotional reaction to an intentional, thoughtful response. 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:44.799 And what we think about with these first three skills of cues, pulling the curtain, and shifting is that we call these our basic skills of empathy because overwhelmingly, this occurs in all empathy work. 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:57.920 There is this importance of seeing the environment, right, what we call cues, trying to understand what's going on underneath the surface, right, what we call pulling the curtain, and then taking this pause or moving to an intentional response, which we call shifting. 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:16.640 And so where we really see a lot of Of the value in what we're working on is building out from that on our final two skills, which really builds on that binocular perspective that I spoke about a few minutes ago, where the binocular perspective uses boundaries and feelings as our final two skills. 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:24.240 And so boundaries is thinking about the balance between the wants and needs of the other and the wants and needs of yourself, right? 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:31.279 And really making sure that we're kind of cognizant and intentional about how we're balancing those wants and needs of each individual. 00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.599 The fifth is are those feelings. 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:40.880 And feelings is about not only what are you feeling, but why are you feeling this way, right? 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:48.319 And so it's the balance of the how is the other person feeling and why, and the how am I feeling and why. 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:56.240 And I think really importantly, human beings are pretty good at knowing what they feel and how they feel. 00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:59.440 They are not very good at knowing why they feel that way, right? 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:06.319 Those motivations and those underlying stressors that come out in our feelings and in our emotions. 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:17.680 And when we empower people to be more mindful, not only of how they're feeling, but why, the interactions that we have with each other become so much stronger and so much more meaningful. 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:37.839 And so it takes us back, right, to that binocular perspective of empathy is that when you're doing this, you're empowering yourself to really embrace the empathetic no that I talked about and try and counter that shame and guilt that we know is going to lead to that compassion fatigue, to that burnout. 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:38.240 Right. 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:42.400 So those are our five skills of empathy and kind of why we see them as so valuable. 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:55.839 And when we think about them, I think what's really important to us is it's not an issue that individuals really have problems with these specific skills, although sometimes they may not think about them or they may not access them in the way that we want. 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:01.599 And so we're really intentional when we talk about these five empathy skills to keep them in your mind, right? 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:07.359 And to kind of remind yourself when I'm in situations, am I working through each of these aspects? 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:21.119 And we want to get to a place where it's not a sequential, you know, from cues to pulling the curtain to shifting to boundaries to feelings, but it's a interactive, a dynamic kind of experience where you're working through all five skills simultaneously. 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:27.680 And so what we really focus on is you got to know those five skills so you can utilize them. 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:31.839 But what we focus much more on is the roadblocks to empathy, right? 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:38.559 And these are these aspects that get in the way of your ability to access empathy in meaningful ways. 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:46.480 And so what we want to help people do is recognize what are your roadblocks that are creating these challenges to really connect with people? 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.640 And we've identified factors that are external in nature, right? 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:56.319 These are essentially issues that come up in life that distract us from being present with someone else. 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:02.480 Because if we're not present, right, if I'm not here with you in our conversation, I'm not gonna be empathetic. 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:03.920 I'm not gonna connect with you. 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:05.039 And people are good. 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:07.759 They feel when

you're not present with them, right? 00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:14.480 And so we need to be really aware that life is gonna happen to all of us all of the time, right? 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:24.880 We're gonna have arguments with our spouse, we're gonna be worried about the health of our kids, we're gonna be worried about our personal health, we're not gonna sleep well sometimes, we're gonna be changing medications, and that's gonna be having impacts on us, right? 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:26.319 All of these things happen. 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:33.279 And what we need to be really intentional about is not saying, all right, well, that external stuff is in my personal life. 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:36.079 I'm not gonna allow it to impact my professional space. 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:37.680 That's an impossibility. 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:45.519 But if we recognize it, if we identify it, now we can start addressing those challenges that we have with those external factors. 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.319 And then we have internal factors that are roadblocks, right? 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:56.480 These are misperceptions that we'll have about other people around us, these assumptions that we make about their intentions, about their wants and needs. 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:01.200 And what we really want to encourage people to be is be curious, right? 00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:08.079 If I make an assumption about someone, what does it feel like to ask a question instead of just moving forward with that assumption? 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:12.160 Because so often our assumption has no truth. 00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:15.839 It's not real, it's what we've created, it's what we've made up. 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:16.720 Exactly. 00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:18.720 And we need to be more intentional about that. 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:26.960 And so that's what we really want to empower people to do is to not be thinking about which of these skills am I inept at, right? 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.160 But what are my primary roadblocks? 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:38.319 Now that I know those, I'm freeing myself up to utilize these skills of empathy in meaningful and effective ways. 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:49.920 You know, every once in a while, well, actually a lot more frequently than once in a while, it's surprising how often the stuff that you research, empathy, collides with what I research, accountability. 00:26:50.079 --> 00:27:03.119 And through the work we've done together and separately, through the empathy center and through the Institute for Character and Leadership at FDU, these workshops that we do, the coaching sessions we do with these leaders, the same thing comes up. 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:07.759 And it's they're wrestling with how to balance empathy with accountability. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:12.640 Some leaders fear empathy makes organizations less disciplined or less effective. 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:16.720 How do you think empathy and accountability actually strengthen

one another? 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:26.400 Yeah, I this question, I love this, Scott, because it is one of the most overwhelming responses that we'll get is, oh, you want me to be empathetic. 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:28.160 So you so I just I'm gonna be a doormat. 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:35.440 And when an employee says, like, oh, I don't want to do this, the empathetic response is, oh, well, I wouldn't want you to do something you don't want to do. 00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:37.119 So you don't need to worry about that. 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.480 Like, no, that's that is not what we're talking about here, right? 00:27:40.559 --> 00:28:11.200 And so we're really it's it's what I love so much about our work is that we're really intentional about redefining empathy so that we get out of this mindset that empathy is about weakness, that empathy is about giving someone what they want and just doing what they want and serving them solely, and rather that empathy is about thinking what the each person in the environment needs, and make sure that everyone is held accountable because the only way an organization is truly going to be empathetic is if everyone's accountable to each other, right? 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:19.680 That we have this equity, this fairness within the system, just like within a family unit, so that everyone's accountable to what they're doing. 00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:28.240 And Scott, you say something that I just love so much, which is you know that what we need is accountability with grace, right? 00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:32.400 And when I hear that, I hear accountability with humanity, right? 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:37.680 That this brings people closer together and makes work more meaningful for everyone. 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:42.000 It's one of the elements that I love so much about conflict, right? 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.200 I think accountability often is connected with conflict. 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:52.480 And conflict is one of those really interesting things that our society, I think, has become too averse to conflict. 00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:56.400 And we're averse to conflict until we just can't handle it anymore. 00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.920 And it bubbles up into anger and hostility, right? 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:07.680 And I really operate from a place where conflict can bring us closer together or it can drive us farther apart. 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:16.960 And when we're avoiding conflict, it's gonna drive us apart because we're not letting the other people know in our environment what we're feeling and what we need. 00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:28.880 But when we express that, right, when it's not in an emotional, angry, hostile position, when we express to someone, you know, when you said this, when you did this, it didn't make me feel valued. 00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:30.640 It didn't make me feel worthy. 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:32.799 I'd really like to have a conversation about that. 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.240 I'd like

to engage with this in a safe, meaningful way. 00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:39.279 All of a sudden, I really know that person, right? 00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:40.480 I'm really connected. 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:42.160 I belong with this person. 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:44.640 That's what empathy empowers us to do. 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:45.680 I love that. 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:47.599 And I do have a question on this, Ben. 00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:48.880 I'm so curious. 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:55.920 I'm fascinated also by Scott's accountability with grace and with your empathy is deeply human. 00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:00.640 And so we live in an age where disagreement is dehumanizing us. 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:03.279 And I find it fascinating. 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:13.119 And I'm curious how you think that empathy can help people navigate these differences without collapsing into relativism or without losing their own convictions. 00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:15.920 Yeah, this is such a great question, Jason. 00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:17.039 I really appreciate it. 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:22.480 I'm I'm not so idealistic and naive to believe that empathy is going to solve the world's problems. 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:24.640 Uh, we're still gonna have disagreements. 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:34.960 But what we need to be doing is give people the space where we truly listen and hear them with the goal of connecting and trying to understand them. 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:35.440 Right? 00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:53.680 When we work to get as close as possible to understand what is their mindset in this conversation, it doesn't mean that we have to agree with them, but it's trying to get to those underlying motivations and their feelings that are driving them to the perspective that they have, the opinion that they have. 00:30:53.920 --> 00:31:01.119 And it, I think going into that conversation without the goal of convincing them that they're wrong, because that's not going to align well. 00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:03.119 We're not going to always agree. 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:17.599 But when we come together aligned with the goal of a conversation is that I have my values, I have my humanity, and I care for you, and you have your values, and you have your humanity, and you care about me. 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:25.440 Now we can have conversations that are on the basis of hearing each other rather than winning an argument. 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:40.720 And I think this is really tough because, you know, I'll hear in my conversations with people that, you know, how do I have a conversation with someone who their perspective is invalidating who I am as a person, right? 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:48.720 And I think what's essential there is you've got to think about yourself, about your own safety and security. 00:31:48.960 --> 00:32:07.920 You don't have to engage in a conversation with someone who you know is gonna invalidate or who does invalidate who you are as a person, but you can disengage with that conversation in meaningful ways to demonstrate that you don't agree and that you don't feel valued and heard without demonizing them as well. 00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:08.319 Right. 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:15.839 And I think the more that we have that conversation, the more successful we'll be in building the world that we all want to be a part of. 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:25.200 I think it's interesting that you laid out that conflict is okay and in fact good, and that there's ways to do this and approach this that are positive. 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:35.839 And you also mentioned earlier in our conversation about one of the things that was really important to you was this idea of what can we do to help families thrive or flourish? 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:44.400 And that really brings me to this next topic that I want to bring up, and that's that you've represented Fairley Dickinson University at the United Nations for more than a decade. 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:49.440 That's an extraordinary experience that many people don't know about or know little about about you. 00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:58.240 How did that opportunity emerge and what has it taught you about leadership, diplomacy, human flourishing on a global scale, maybe even empathy? 00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:05.519 Yeah, it my my work at the United Nations has been such a joy and something that I just never expected for myself. 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:18.000 And it was a series of what seemed to be random situations that just kept adding on to themselves and summing to the point that I started doing some work connected with the United Nations. 00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:25.200 And so the first element of that was in my final year in my doctoral program, that I was under the mentorship of Dr. 00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:26.400 Betty Lorch. 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:37.440 She had moved into an administrative position in the dean's office and was facilitating a partnership between South Africa and the University of Kentucky, uh, where I did my doctoral work. 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:55.440 And it gave me this unbelievable opportunity to work as I was working so closely with Betty, where I got to be invited to these conversations with Ahmed Catrada and Eddie Daniels, who had lived uh and been held and confined with Nelson Mandela. 00:33:56.079 --> 00:34:03.759 And being in the room and hearing their perspective on, you know, really what empathy in action is, right? 00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:14.960 When you think about what Mandela and his movement and and everyone around him was able to achieve in returning from decades of confinement, right? 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:30.719 Imprisoned, uh coming out of apartheid in South Africa, and doing something that has rarely been seen in our history of wanting to bring those who oppressed together with those who were oppressed, right? 00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:34.320 And the humanity there is just mind-boggling, right? 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.920 And so to have

that conversation with with Dr. 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:39.599 Catharada and Mr. 00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:42.320 Daniels was just a thrill of my life, right? 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:43.519 And that was enough for me. 00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:49.280 And then I started my faculty position at Fairley Dickinson University, and I just wanted to get involved, right? 00:34:49.360 --> 00:35:00.559 I was straight out of my doctoral program, coming into a faculty position, and FDU was one of the very first universities connected to the United Nations as a university. 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:06.239 Actually, our president at the time when the UN Charter was signed is one of the signatories of that UN Charter. 00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:09.199 Really amazing, something that not many people know about FDU. 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:09.840 Yeah. 00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:13.039 And so there were just trips going to the UN. 00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:15.119 And I said, Well, I want to go to these trips. 00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:17.679 And so I was just there, right? 00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:21.760 And so many times I tell people if you can just be there, right? 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:24.559 The presence is where the opportunities are. 00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:25.840 And so I was just there. 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:30.960 And I was talking to students and I was talking to the faculty and the people who are running the programs. 00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:38.400 And I got this really exciting moment where I got a conversation with the director of our Office of Global Learning, Dr. 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:49.599 Jason Scorza, who really sadly passed away much too early a few years ago, but was just one of those people that the minute I met him, I knew he was one of my people. 00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:50.079 Right. 00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:53.920 It's the same thing I felt like, Scott, when I when you and I met many years ago. 00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:01.119 Um, you know, those of us who do this work, when you meet your people, it's just such a good day, right? 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.840 And so when I met Jason, it was such a good day. 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:11.440 And he approached me about, you know, what would I be interested and what would it look like for me to be connected and represent the university at the United Nations? 00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:13.440 And I leapt at the opportunity, right? 00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:22.079 And so in 2012, I started representing the university, serving on the NGO Committee on the Family in New York. 00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:24.719 So the NGO Committee on the Family. 00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:35.679 And in that work, we're really focused on supporting and promoting the value and dignity of families as an integral unit of uh the society, a building block of society. 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:55.119 And so that is what brought me into the United Nations and got me really connected so that I got to start applying my research knowledge and experience to informing and engaging

with policymakers at the United Nations so that at least decisions were based on empirical evidence, right? 00:36:55.360 --> 00:37:00.000 And so that really brings me to what have I learned about diplomacy and flourishing? 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:04.079 Um, and it just always brings me back to listening and to hearing people. 00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:23.840 The United Nations is an organization that's about bringing people together through their ambassadors, through their representatives, through their people to create a space for meaningful conversations, to build meaningful relationships, to deal with the frustrations, the challenges, the conflict that happened throughout the world. 00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:32.239 And so I think, you know, for people who haven't had the opportunity to see the work in the United Nations, it can often feel like nothing's happening. 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:37.119 But it's because change like this takes decades to be realized. 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:55.679 And so, you know, when you're on the inside, you see these conversations over lunch and dinner and in the halls, countries that, you know, in the outside world may not even be talking to each other, but you see these meaningful relationships and you see that that people are people, right? 00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:09.519 And that they have values and experiences and connections that bring us all together and that it helps us recognize just this inherent value of people to create a better place for all of us. 00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:19.760 And so, you know, I'm I'm just such a strong believer, having gotten the opportunity to be in that space, that UN provides us that opportunity to bring us all together. 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:26.639 And it's gonna be slower than we'd like, but it's gonna move us in the direction we want to go, which is a flourishing world. 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:30.480 Ben, that journey is astonishing. 00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:42.800 And imagining you working with the ambassadors, the policymakers, the international organizations focused on family well-being and social development, it makes my heart smile. 00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:52.719 And I'm curious, from your perspective, from all that you've learned through this experience, what role does empathy play in peace building and international cooperation? 00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:54.639 Yeah, it's it's so difficult. 00:38:54.800 --> 00:39:08.960 I think, you know, the role of empathy in policy conversations is the recognition that you can't make progress on policy until you understand each other, until you listen to each other and hear what the other person wants and needs, right? 00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:28.800 And in international politics, what we see is these internationally skilled diplomats are really astoundingly good at hearing what people say and being able to decipher what they mean, why they mean it, and what they're hoping to get from that, right? 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:31.360 And so it's that underlying motivation, right? 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:34.320 It's that it's that empathy that we all have been talking about. 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:51.119 And so the ambassadors are really thinking about how do we create these kind of symbiotic relationships together to move policy forward in a meaningful way that avoids conflict and competition between each other. 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:53.920 And again, that's not going to happen every time. 00:39:54.079 --> 00:40:14.880 But what's really um astounding and really beautiful is to see behind the scenes the meaningful kind of trust and compassion and connection that these representatives, these ambassadors, these diplomats have with each other, even when the conclusion results in not coming to the same terms, right? 00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:16.079 And not agreeing. 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:20.239 That I think is the power, right, of the UN and of global conversations. 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:23.599 We've got to be connected to each other to learn from each other. 00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:24.559 I love that. 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:25.360 That's beautiful. 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:32.000 You know, Ben, you and I have had some really great conversations, especially on these long car rides that we've done. 00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:35.519 And some of those conversations have prompted my next question. 00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:44.800 Do you see empathy primarily as an emotion, a skill, a virtue, a discipline, or perhaps some combination of all four? 00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:49.599 Yeah, I I think there's an emotional component to empathy, right? 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:57.119 And this is where we often talk about empathy as having this cognitive component and this affective or emotional component, right? 00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:00.559 To to understand the full aspect of empathy. 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:07.679 And then when I think about the application, I really think of it as this combination, right, of skill, virtue, and discipline. 00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:16.159 Um and I and just to go back to the start of your question, there's been few things that I've enjoyed more on long car rides than getting to talk with Scott. 00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:19.199 Uh, if anyone has the opportunity, highly recommend. 00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:29.280 But within the context of empathy is kind of being a composite of skill, virtue, and discipline, skill is is really the how to, right? 00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:31.519 How am I going to be empathetic? 00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:34.639 Virtue is the moral compass, right? 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:37.199 The the why am I going to do this? 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:39.440 And you know, why am I being empathetic? 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:41.440 What's motivating me to do this? 00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:44.960 The moral direction, right, as to how I'm behaving and engaging. 00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:50.480 And really importantly, right, to that reminder to the binocular perspective, that isn't only for others, right?

00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:52.159 It's for ourselves as well. 00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:53.760 It's that balance. 00:41:54.079 --> 00:42:09.920 Um and then discipline is the you know, the discipline of empathy is the practical application of utilizing empathy in our nuanced, complex, dynamic world that we live in. 00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:18.079 And so it it reminds me of some work, Scott, that you and I are getting to do with the Kern National Network for Flourishing and Health. 00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:28.559 Because, you know, when I think about empathy, um, and I think about the work we're doing with KN, you know, they talk about caring, character, and practical wisdom. 00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:29.440 Yes. 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:35.039 And when I think about that and I connect that to empathy as skill, virtue, and discipline, right? 00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:37.920 Empathy as a skill is that care, right? 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:38.719 The how-to. 00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:42.000 Empathy as virtue is that character, right? 00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:44.320 The moral compass to be empathetic. 00:42:44.639 --> 00:43:01.280 And empathy as discipline is the practical wisdom to take this concept of empathy and apply it in a way that is meaningful and beneficial to others simultaneously, myself, in all of these different ways, right? 00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:10.000 Empathy would be a lot easier if we could say the empathetic response is to do X in environment Y, right? 00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:11.679 But that's not life. 00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:18.159 And it would be simpler, but it would be so dreadful if life was that simple, right? 00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:19.039 Yeah. 00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:31.039 And and so just thinking about having the skills to apply empathy, and then having the moral compass and the virtue to to think about the why, right? 00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:40.639 Of of why it matters and why I'm intentional with this behavior, and then applying empathy in our real world in dynamic contexts is just so beautiful and so exciting. 00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:41.840 It is beautiful. 00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:42.719 It is exciting. 00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:45.039 Ben, I want to be mindful of your time. 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:48.719 But before you go, I would love to ask you one last question. 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:57.440 You spend so much of your professional life working in spaces shaped by conflict and division and stress and human suffering. 00:43:57.920 --> 00:43:59.679 Yet you are one of the most energy. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.199 Energized people when it comes to helping create a better world. 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:05.360 What helps you remain hopeful? 00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:09.280 Yeah, what a wonderful way to conclude this conversation. 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:18.239 And it it reminds me of something that I've reflected on throughout my years, especially in my early years, where I did a lot of work in the trauma space. 00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:18.880 Right. 00:44:19.039

--> 00:44:24.159 And it's this recognition that bad things are going to happen in our lives. 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:30.880 We are going to be faced with challenges and adversity that we wouldn't wish on anyone else. 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:50.400 And until we get the power to prevent those things from happening, which isn't going to happen, we need to embrace this recognition that the beauty of life is really in the overcoming and addressing and engaging with adversity that we're stronger when we go through and engage with challenges that we have. 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:56.400 I come from this, right, the growth mindset and this value of post-traumatic growth, right? 00:44:56.559 --> 00:45:01.599 As an opportunity where we can reflect on our lives. 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:14.239 And when we do that, I'm so confident that others like myself, when we really reflect on the things that we're most proud that define who we are, it's not the things that came easy. 00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:17.039 It's not the things that were devoid of adversity. 00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:25.440 It's the times that we had disagreement with people that we cared about and had meaningful conversations and got through to the other side. 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:33.119 And at least gained a better understanding of each other, and hopefully found a middle point of compromise and connection. 00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:33.519 Right. 00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:36.320 And I think that's what's always so exciting and so powerful. 00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:46.719 And what gets me up every day is that I so love what I get to do at Fairley Dickinson University as the dean of the Marion Turpin College of Psychology and Counseling. 00:45:46.960 --> 00:46:00.159 And it really comes down to, you know, my goal is to help anyone that I come in contact with to feel as empowered and fulfilled on their own path to flourishing that I feel every day. 00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:02.480 Not every moment of every day, right? 00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:04.719 Because we all have our ups and downs. 00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:09.119 But that if I can help others flourish, that's what gets me motivated. 00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:10.639 That's what gets me excited. 00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:12.639 And that's what keeps me positive. 00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:21.599 Because just as we've seen in this conversation today, I've had this beautiful opportunity to reflect on some of these key moments in my life. 00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:30.960 And I look so forward to being able to share this conversation with those in my network who many may not have even known how impactful they were on my life. 00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:39.360 Think about the hundreds, the thousands of people in all of our lives that we had an enormous impact on and we don't know it. 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:44.719 And so I'll end with my invitation to all that I've worked with, right? 00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:55.760 And and that I try to do of getting reconnected to those who impacted you and making sure they're aware of the positive impact they had on your life. 00:46:56.079 --> 00:47:01.440 Because there's nothing that makes me happier than having someone come back to me and say, Dr. 00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:13.920 Freer, you may not even remember me, but ten years ago I had you in class and I had this problem and you listened and heard me and you made me feel like it was okay and that I was going to overcome it. 00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:17.199 And sometimes I remember them and sometimes I don't. 00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:19.760 But man, is that beautiful? 00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:24.320 And that's what I aspire for, and that's what I love about the life that we all get to live. 00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:26.960 Thank you all so much for this conversation. 00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:28.159 Absolutely. 00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:28.960 Our pleasure. 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:34.480 And I have to say that you have definitely contributed to my flourishing, and so I'm grateful for that. 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:41.519 And I'm grateful that you were on the podcast with Jason and I today, and we're immensely grateful for your time and your presence. 00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:42.719 Thank you, Ben. 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:44.159 Thank you both. 00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:48.400 What an insightful, deeply human, and hopeful conversation with Dr. 00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:49.280 Ben Freer. 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:56.079 One thing that stayed with me throughout our conversation is Ben's reminder that empathy isn't simply about understanding someone else. 00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:59.119 It requires us to understand ourselves as well. 00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:02.800 That's why I find his idea of binocular empathy so powerful. 00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:04.559 One lens looks outward. 00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:06.320 What is this person experiencing? 00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:07.599 What are they feeling? 00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:08.880 What might they need? 00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:11.199 But the other lens looks inward. 00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:12.800 What am I experiencing? 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:14.079 What are my boundaries? 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:15.840 What are my responsibility? 00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:19.920 What do I need in order to remain healthy enough to continue showing up for others? 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:21.920 True empathy requires both. 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:25.840 I also love Ben's challenge to the assumption that empathy means weakness. 00:48:26.239 --> 00:48:28.000 Empathy doesn't mean becoming a doormat. 00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:30.320 It doesn't mean avoiding accountability. 00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:32.639 And it doesn't mean eliminating conflict. 00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:38.800 In fact, as Ben reminded us, conflict can bring us closer together or drive us further apart. 00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:46.239 The difference often lies in whether we're willing to listen, remain curious, express what we're feeling, and approach one another with humanity. 00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:50.960 That connects beautifully with something Ben said about my own work on accountability with grace. 00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:54.400 He described it as accountability with humanity. 00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:55.440 I love that. 00:48:56.239 --> 00:49:00.400 Because perhaps the question facing leaders isn't whether we should choose empathy or accountability. 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:07.840 Perhaps flourishing leadership requires both care and standards, understanding and responsibility, compassion and courage. 00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:15.280 Ben also offered one of my favorite frameworks of the entire conversation when he described empathy as skill, virtue, and discipline. 00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:24.800 Skill gives us the how, virtue gives us the why, and discipline, or practical wisdom, helps us discern how to apply empathy wisely within the complexity of real life. 00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:27.679 And then Ben ended with something beautifully simple. 00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:33.599 There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who have shaped our lives without ever realizing the difference they made. 00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:40.000 So maybe one of the most empathic things we can do this week is to reach out to one of them and say, You mattered. 00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:41.039 You helped me. 00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:42.239 You made a difference. 00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:48.559 If today's conversation encouraged you, I hope you'll share it with a friend, colleague, or fellow leader who might need this reminder. 00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:56.480 And if you're enjoying the Flourishing Leaders podcast, please consider following the show, leaving us a review, and sharing it with others. 00:49:56.719 --> 00:50:02.559 Every review helps more people discover conversations centered on character, leadership, and human flourishing. 00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.119 Thank you for spending part of your day with us. 00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:09.840 And as always, lead with character, live with purpose, strive to flourish. 00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:10.960 See you next time. 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:25.119 Our narrator is Maggie Lansford. 00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:28.079 Our graphic designer is Mary Ellen Moreno. 00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:32.800 Our theme music was composed by Jeff Bedall and performed by the TV. 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:39.519 And our channel is hosted by TopT. 00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:45.119 If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe at our video and share the dots. 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:54.480 And my resources and updates, please visit www.tast and thirst to stay at stay in the tightest.