Is Dylan Marando the next Dalton McGuinty? ft. Dylan Marando ၏ စာသားမှတ်တမ်းအပြည့်အစုံ

definitely reinforced kind of the sleepy nature of the race, but uh one person made uh an impression, and that was Dylan Mirando. 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:56.160 His performance stood out from the rest as perhaps the only candidate uh worth talking about coming out of that debate. 00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:02.560 He was prepared, he had charisma, his answers were polished, he sounded definitely like the real deal. 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:12.399 Some have even said that he sounded like Dalton McGuinty, which is why we wanted to talk to him today and put that to the test. 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:16.000 But uh as always, let's talk data. 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:18.240 Here are three data points that you need to know. 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:27.680 So the first is nine, which is where Doug Ford ranks relative to other premiers in terms of approval, according to Angus Reed Institute. 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:30.160 The second number is 70. 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:36.480 That's the percentage of Ontarians who think it's time for a change, according to Abacus data. 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:55.120 And third, 68%, which is the percentage of liberal voters who thought Dylan Miranda uh was a very interesting or somewhat interesting candidate, second only behind Lee Faircough in some polling that I did back in March, where also famously, you know, gave poll tested fairly well. 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:56.319 That's right. 00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:58.639 Definitely very, very interesting candidate. 00:05:58.959 --> 00:05:59.680 Never forget. 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:04.720 Unfortunately, the deadline has passed to uh and it costs$100,000. 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:05.439 I don't have that. 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:06.800 There's always next time, Gabe. 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:07.279 That's right. 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:11.040 We'll wait for the podcast to like truly blow up and then you'll Oh yeah. 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:11.519 Yeah. 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:12.399 No, very good. 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:12.800 Okay. 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:18.959 Well, does uh does Dylan Mirando have what it takes to revive an Ontario Liberal Party? 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:24.480 Is Canada ready for what I think would be its first millennial premier? 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:30.000 We'll uh dig into all of that and more with Dylan coming up next. 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:37.600 This week, to help answer our loaded question: is Dylan Mirando the next Dalton McGuinty? 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:40.000 We're joined by Dylan Mirando. 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:46.560 Dylan is a former policy advisor to Ontario Premier Kathleen Nguyen and to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:55.600 He is now a sessional lecturer at the Monk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy and is on the Canadian leadership team of a global medical technology company. 00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:04.879 Dylan was the first candidate to sign up for the leadership race, you know, way back in June, and has been busily crisscrossing the

province asking for liberal support. 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:06.399 Dylan, welcome to the lab. 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:07.519 Thanks for having me. 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:08.480 Great to be here. 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:09.439 All right, Dylan. 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.480 So we're recording the podcast on a Saturday. 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:14.639 Uh you're in you're in campaign mode. 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:20.639 I assume you're kind of fitting us in between sort of afternoon, evening barbecue stops. 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:25.439 Uh, but let's let's start with what uh what you're telling people when you when you meet them. 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:27.199 What's what's the elevator pitch? 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:32.000 Why should Dylan Mirando be the next leader of the Ontario Liberal Party? 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:36.560 Well, I think what I'm telling most folks is that I'm determined to grow this party. 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:38.319 I'm determined to beat Doug Ford. 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:42.240 As you may have heard me say before, I think the milk has soured on Doug Ford. 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:44.160 Pretty soon it's gonna be chunky. 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:47.680 And for the health and safety of Ontarians, I'm gonna throw it out. 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:50.480 So that's mission one: beat Doug Ford. 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:53.759 And I want to do it, and I believe I have the tools and the toolbox to do it. 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:58.879 But just as importantly, after we beat Doug Ford, we have to restore competency to Queen's Park. 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:02.480 And as folks heard in the introduction, I've served two premiers and a prime minister. 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:05.279 I've done a tour of duty in the private sector. 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:10.800 I spent a lot of time in universities studying public policy and teaching public policy. 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:20.879 So I'm confident that my team and I know what it takes to win, we know what it takes to govern, and we are best positioned to win the next general election and restore competency to Queen's Park. 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:26.879 Copper theft and the damage that results from it is a huge issue in Canada. 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:31.839 I first raised it here on behalf of our presenting sponsor, TELUS, about two years ago. 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:34.480 Since then, the problem has only grown. 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:39.600 But so has awareness, especially the need for much stronger intervention and deterrence. 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:41.600 I'll come back to that part in a minute. 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:43.519 Here's what's happening out there. 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:49.519 Thieves are cutting telecommunications wire at ever increasing rates, attempting to steal copper. 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.360 In doing so, they damage critical infrastructure and services. 00:08:53.840 --> 00:09:00.240 Emergency responders and public safety services go dark, so people can't call 911 to get the help they need.

00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:09.200 There are utility outages, hydro, electricity, and gas, credit card transactions and online orders are disrupted, harming small businesses. 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:11.679 Internet and mobile services go down. 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:20.000 For TELUS, copper theft and infrastructure damage has increased by over 45% in 2026 compared to 2025. 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:36.080 And because it's fresh, only two weeks ago, thousands of people in Northwest BC, communities like Terrace, Kidamat, Prince Rupert, and Fraser Lake were left without service when thieves inadvertently cut through fiber lines while on the hunt for copper lines. 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:37.919 There is some hope though. 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:48.080 TELUS is working with government at all levels and local police to catch the thieves and also ensure that stronger levels of deterrence are put in place before crimes take place. 00:09:48.559 --> 00:10:05.120 They collaborated with the Senate's Standing Committee on Transportation and Communications on their recently released study on copper theft, and they're supportive of a couple of pieces of new federal legislation designed to amp up theft deterrence and safeguard our essential infrastructure. 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:07.440 More on this issue next week. 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:11.200 Okay, so restoring competency to Queen's Park. 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:14.240 I mean, what does that what does that look like in terms of outcomes? 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:20.639 How how would Ontario look different uh under uh Dylan Mirando premiership? 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:26.080 Well, I think this answer probably reveals a bit of my brand of liberalism. 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:35.519 I I often say in in PLA rooms, because I get a version of this question a lot, I'm not a left-wing liberal, I'm not a right-wing liberal, I'm a meat and potatoes liberal. 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:38.159 I try to be a hardworking problem solver. 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:46.320 That is the philosophy that I brought to my first tour of duty in Queen's Park, to my tour of duty on Parliament Hill, and it's what I want to bring back to the party. 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.679 And it's pretty clear what the big stuff is at Queen's Park. 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:57.519 It's publicly funded education, it's publicly funded healthcare, and it's common sense investments in infrastructure in every corner of the province. 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:12.080 And if you want to drill down a bit deeper on that, on publicly funded education, it's smaller class sizes for our kids, it's more supports for students with exceptionalities, and it's an early learning and childcare system that is both affordable and accessible. 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:20.960 On health care, I think it's better pay for PSWs and nurses and custodial staff and clerical staff and kitchen staff. 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:26.639 It's more care in the community and at home, which is both very effective care and very

efficient care. 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.159 And it's recognizing that mental health is health. 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:33.360 We need comprehensive mental health care to be part of OHIP. 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:37.519 And on the community infrastructure side, it depends what community you're talking about. 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:40.720 But in the Northwest and Northeast, it means twinning our highways. 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:42.559 69, 17, 11. 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:46.240 Every highway in the north, every major highway in the north needs to be twinned. 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.120 In other communities, it's going to be investments in clean energy. 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:52.879 I think as liberals, we need to find our spine on clean energy again. 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:58.480 And if you add all those things up, that's a pretty ambitious list of achievements or areas of focus. 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:02.720 But as liberals, we have a very impressive track record in those areas. 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:04.399 And we need to remind folks of that. 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.759 And I think that's going to be a compelling narrative in the next general election. 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.480 So you closed with uh with clean energy there. 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:14.399 I mean, that's uh that's an area that I'm I'm interested in my own work. 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:22.480 But of course, you got your electoral start or your start in electoral politics as a green party candidate in 2008. 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:36.960 Talk to me how someone goes from being a uh a Green Party candidate to uh you know to have holding senior positions in in liberal governments and then um now a candidate for the leadership of the OLP. 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.200 Talk me through that uh that journey. 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:43.440 Yeah, well, it this this could be a long story depending how I tell it. 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:52.879 But, you know, I got I got interested in electoral politics like a lot of folks, not long after I was eligible to vote for the first time. 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:58.000 And I didn't grow up in a political family, I didn't grow up around politics. 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:01.440 So in retrospect, I can say that I was pretty naive. 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:10.480 I went to, I was focused on federal politics at the time because that's uh that's the election that I could vote in and or had just vote voted in. 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.360 Uh and I went to all the websites of all the parties. 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:18.080 Uh, I don't know if this is gonna this answer is gonna help me or hurt me with the audience, but I'll give you the I'll give you the honest answer. 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.720 I I don't deliver this a lot, but yeah, we we prize honesty uh culture a lot. 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:24.480 It's a safe space, Dylan. 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:30.960 I reached out to all the political parties and I said, hey, you know, sign me up, tell me, tell me more. 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:36.960 And not surprisingly, perhaps, the first party I heard back from was the Green Party. 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:41.759 Okay and and they invited me to a local writing association meeting. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:48.480 Uh and of course, in advance of that, that meeting, which was going to be my first political meeting, uh, I studied up a bit. 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:54.080 I made sure that I did know a little bit more about the platform of the party and and where their values were. 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.960 Um, and I I felt very aligned to the values of the party. 00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:00.320 So I show up to my first ever political meeting. 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:13.200 And it's me uh and three other people, the past candidate, the the uh president of the EDA and the volunteer who showed up to every meeting. 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.519 And they said, Well, we need a candidate. 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:21.919 Uh and and I'm saying again, very naive. 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:22.799 This is vetting. 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:24.879 Uh a very romantic view of the world at the time. 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.360 I said, Well, I guess this is what it means to get involved in politics. 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:27.840 Yeah. 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.919 So I walked out, I walked out of that community center. 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:34.720 Yeah, and I was a candidate for the next federal election. 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:42.639 Or at least I had started a process of entering a nomination process, which, you know, a few weeks down the roll road uh made me a candidate. 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:43.840 You got greenlit. 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:44.240 That's good. 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:44.799 Exactly. 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:46.720 I got greenlit in more ways than one. 00:14:47.039 --> 00:15:01.039 I feel like that's a very good um anecdote in like that that capsule of period of time, like 2008, which is when everyone was dunking on liberals and how we expected to like be in positions of power on day one. 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.679 You were the the perfect example. 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:04.559 Yeah, yeah. 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:08.000 I've been I've been blessed throughout my political journey. 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:14.720 I've I've stumbled into a lot of uh very interesting and growth-orienting and rewarding uh experiences. 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:15.440 And that was one. 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:19.360 I I I genuinely loved my time on that campaign. 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:20.879 I learned a ton about my community. 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:22.320 I learned a ton about politics. 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:28.159 Again, I still think that a lot of the values of of the Green Party resonate with me and a lot of Ontarians. 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:38.240 But after that race, I I had to think a bit more about uh how I could make the biggest impact on the political landscape. 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:43.600 And I wasn't sure that that running again for the

Greens federally was the best way to do that. 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.559 Um, it actually felt like the best way to do that was to go to policy school. 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:54.000 So that's when I did my Master's of Public Policy uh at the School of Public Policy and Governance, the University of Toronto, later did, later did a PhD. 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:59.200 And uh while I was there, admittedly, I was surrounded by more and more liberals. 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:07.039 And and they, you know, gradually worked on me and said, listen, Dylan, you know, Dion had just run on the green shift, right? 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:10.720 And Dalton was doing great things on renewable energy provincially. 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:21.039 And so a lot of my new my new liberal buddies were saying, uh, hey Dylan, you you can you can carry those same values, but you can win if you're a liberal. 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:22.879 You can govern if you're a liberal. 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:24.399 So come to our party. 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:28.399 Uh and after a couple years craven, okay. 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:36.960 After a couple years of that kind of persuasion, um, I I ended up as a special assistant to to Premier Dalton McGuinty. 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:44.159 And and I think to the core question of your podcast, uh, it would be an honor uh to be McGuinty 2.0. 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.600 I I hope that 2026 looks a lot like 1996. 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:49.120 I think Dalton is the GOAT. 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:57.120 I think what he did for our party uh and for our province politically and from a policy perspective is is remarkable. 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:03.919 And I was very, very grateful and remain very, very grateful to have been a small part of what he did while he was premier. 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:15.200 So after your time with uh Premier McGuinty, of course you were uh an advisor to uh to Premier Wynne and uh to Prime Minister uh Trudeau. 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.240 You've you've interacted with uh with a lot of leaders. 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:24.000 Do you have uh a political leader that you kind of look to? 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:37.359 Let's let's take it let's take it out of out of uh Ontario politics, maybe, and think about like you know, famous politicians that uh that you think would inform kind of where you'd like to take the party under your leadership? 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:41.119 Is it like is it a Mum Dani or like an LBJ? 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:43.839 Is it Pearson, Pierre Trudeau? 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:49.200 Uh what's the who's a well-known figure that had an approach that could kind of meet this moment? 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:50.720 Yeah, yeah. 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:53.200 It's it's uh it's a good question. 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:56.960 I my my default answer um is is McGinty. 00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:05.119 I I know I I just talked about how great he is, but I do think he's a model for, remains a model for the the party in so many ways.

00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:09.599 He was, you know, in my estimation, a workforce, not a show horse. 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:15.920 Dalton, throughout his leadership, throughout his premiership, was never necessarily the shiniest guy in the room. 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:21.119 And I think he was the smartest guy in a lot of rooms, but he didn't project that either. 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.920 He he rolled up his sleeves and he got to work and he got the big stuff done. 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:30.400 I think that mindset for a leader is is really, really important. 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:36.240 And and some of the dispositional elements of Dalton, I think, are going to come back into political fashion. 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.079 I think folks are tired of spectacle, right? 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:39.279 That's what we get with Doug Ford. 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:41.200 We get a lot of sizzle, no steak. 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:43.680 With Dalton, we got a lot of protein. 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.000 And so I think we have to go back to that a little bit. 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:50.480 But the other thing that Dalton did that I think was really impressive is that he had an amazing team. 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:55.200 Yes, an amazing team of staffers, but he had an incredible cabinet, an incredible caucus. 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:57.039 You think back to his time in government. 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:05.119 People could name Deb Matthews, they could name Kathleen Wynn, they could name George Millerman, they could name Dwight Duncan, they could name Greg Cerbera, Gerard Kennedy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.480 And that doesn't happen all the time, where folks know the front bench. 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:13.680 In fact, they know the first two rows of a government the way they did during Dalton's time as premier. 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.519 So his team orientation, I think, is something that we have to emulate a lot. 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:30.319 And and again, that laser focus on things that are going to make the biggest impact on Ontario families, uh, I think was was really, really important and something we should be proud of as liberals and we shouldn't shy away from. 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:44.559 So Dalton is for me the model outside of Ontario politics, outside of the current political moment, I do have a soft spot for Pearson because I I think his his legacy is so outstanding. 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:50.319 And he was uh a guy who got a lot done in a in a very short period of time. 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:50.640 Right. 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.799 He also had to be very responsive to the parties across the aisle. 00:19:54.960 --> 00:20:06.319 So he brought that kind of collegiality to um to his time in in the prime minister's office that I would hopefully bring to my time as premier, not just within our party, but across our party. 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:18.640 So those if I was not taking this call as a nomadic leadership candidate and just finding the closest uh room to be in, you'd you'd see a Pearson poster behind me, because that's usually what I what I have sitting behind me on these calls. 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:19.359 Okay. 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:25.920 Um now we talked a little bit about your your experience as um as a staffer. 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:36.559 You're you're kind of on stage along with with another candidate as sort of uh the maybe the next generation of um of Ontario politicians. 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:55.119 Uh but your your political experience is is closely tied to governments, maybe the McGuinty government as an exception, but the Wynne government, the the Trudeau government, that aren't really looked back fondly on by um by voters today. 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:04.079 Um the experience that you have is is it is it only an asset, or is there some baggage there too? 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:13.279 I think with Rick to Dalton, and I know I know you said he's probably an exception to this, I think that's that's an asset. 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:16.799 With respect to Kathleen, I think that's an asset too. 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:24.799 Um three years from now, I think folks will have a different assessment of the legacies of of both Premier McGuinty and Premier Wynn than they do today. 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.400 And we have to remember the next general election is probably two to three years from now. 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.920 Justin may need a longer cooling off period. 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:36.240 Uh I I say that with great affection for him. 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:39.599 Uh he I'm I'm indebted to him. 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.559 He he gave me the opportunity of a lifetime. 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:48.160 And again, I've been so lucky in politics, I've been given three opportunities of a lifetime with Dalton, with Kathleen, with Justin. 00:21:48.319 --> 00:22:02.640 So, of course, there are going to be some folks who want to caricature me um as as whatever they caricature Justin as in particular, but I've worked for McGuinty and Win and Trudeau. 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:09.279 So I'm the kind of liberal who feels very comfortable in a big liberal tent, in every corner of a big liberal tent. 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:14.640 So I I think the fact that I have not one but three experiences makes me a little bit different. 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:17.200 And ultimately, I I am my own man, right? 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:18.319 I have my own ideas. 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:23.920 There was advice I gave that those leaders took, and there was advice that I gave that those leaders didn't take. 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:28.160 And the nice thing about what I'm doing now is that I get to make the final call. 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:38.000 And I have a great team around me, and they're going to give me all sorts of advice, some of which aligns with my own thinking, some of which doesn't, but I get to own that advice. 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:44.559 I

get to be accountable for that advice and those decisions in ways that I wasn't with past leaders. 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:51.519 Um I will say, though, that I'm I'm not going to run away from my experience with Justin or Kathleen or Dalton. 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:54.400 A, because I think it demonstrates that I've got the tools in the toolbox. 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:55.200 I know how to win. 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:56.160 I know how to govern. 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:00.480 I think those are those are important things in this leadership race and in the next general election. 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.079 And also it's just not my style. 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.319 I'm loyal to the people that I work with. 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:09.759 I believe that each of the leaders I've worked for are leaders of outstanding character. 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:24.319 I think they have real policy legacies that they can be proud of: full-day kindergarten, closing coal, higher minimum wage, better pensions for seniors, early learning and childcare, keeping the economy afloat for COVID. 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:28.000 So I am loyal to those leaders, not just because of the kind of people they are. 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:36.960 I know that they always tried to make the right decision in the moment, but also for what they did for millions of Ontarians and in the case of federal politics, millions of Canadians. 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:42.000 But I mean it's it's it's gonna come up on an election campaign. 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:46.559 You're gonna have to you're gonna have to go on the defense um a little bit here. 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:59.680 I mean, what what are what are the mistakes that that you think were made and and what would you how how could you assure people that uh you kind of we've we've learned from them and you take a different approach? 00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.960 Yeah, well, I mean the obvious mistake is they didn't take my advice every time. 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:06.799 Uh there you go. 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:12.960 No, in all honesty, um most of the time they did on my files, I will say. 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:18.240 Uh different challenges for different leaders and different governments. 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:27.599 So what I would say is that you know it's important to remember in the context of Kathleen, we were a 15-year-old government at that point in time. 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:30.720 So we were probably going to lose that election. 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:37.599 It's really hard for a political party of any color at any order of government to win five elections in a row. 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:49.759 And and that's a point worth emphasizing because I think sometimes we're we're over-indexing on Kathleen's alleged unpopularity or the unpopularity of our government. 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:51.039 Voters like change. 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:54.079 And after a decade and a half, they're probably going to seek change. 00:24:54.240 --> 00:25:00.000 In the same way, they're probably going to want change from the Doug Ford government in two to three years from now. 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:06.000 Um, so I'm not sure that there was any obvious mistake that led to that government losing other than time. 00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:10.640 Um, and in the case of Justin, I would make a similar point, right? 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:13.599 He had been prime minister for nearly a decade. 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:17.440 And folks had seen a lot of him, especially through COVID. 00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:25.839 And given the nature of his leadership style and given all the things that our government did, um, we were everywhere on everything, in large part because of COVID. 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:34.240 So I think there's a fatigue that happened around Justin, but clearly our policy legacies were sufficient to have the next liberal leader get elected. 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:40.160 So my view is that there are a lot of people in this province who are liberals. 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:48.960 And they may not identify as liberals today, but they certainly identify with a lot of our achievements, a lot of our priorities. 00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:55.279 There are people in the party who are ready to go knock doors and sign up more members and grow our party. 00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:01.920 But I think given the unpopularity of Doug Ford, that number is just going to keep growing and growing and growing. 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:07.839 So I let's talk a little bit about uh about policy then here. 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:12.240 Um described, you've been described as kind of a policy uh wonk. 00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:15.839 So why don't we do a little bit of a uh kind of rapid fire? 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:26.400 Uh understand where you land on some of the uh the big uh hot button issues, all of which are so easy they can just be answered in a rapid fire context. 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:34.799 So um US booze, should that go uh back on the shelves or uh should we should we hold the line? 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:36.960 No, we should keep it off the shelves. 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.000 It's an easier question to answer today than it was yesterday. 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:41.359 It certainly certainly is, yeah. 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:42.960 I would have given you the same answer yesterday. 00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:43.680 Keep it off the shelf. 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:55.680 Okay, it's clearly an irritant to a bully, and I think the best way to deal with a bully is by irritating them uh and by punching back, and that punch landed and it continues to land. 00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:56.240 All right. 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:02.880 The Toronto Island Airport expansion, is that something you'd reject or something you'd advance? 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:04.079 Yeah, bad idea. 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:08.240 I reject it, and I came out early and unequivocally on that one. 00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:10.000 Okay, here's an easy one. 00:27:10.240 -->

00:27:11.359 Data centers. 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:15.200 Uh, should we should we step on the gas and build them? 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.559 Or uh are you someone who would favor like a moratorium? 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:23.680 I don't know that I would go so far as to support a moratorium. 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:26.799 Uh I think AI is is here to stay. 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:32.000 And I think it can be a really good thing in some corners of the economy. 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:38.400 When I was in the private sector, I worked for, by some measure, the largest and oldest medical technology company on the planet. 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:44.079 And of course, we have AI in a lot of the stuff, or we had AI in a lot of the stuff we did. 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:52.640 And so I I've seen what AI can do in healthcare, for example, how it can improve the effectiveness and efficiency of care delivered to patients. 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:54.559 So, in principle, AI is okay. 00:27:54.640 --> 00:28:03.039 And to the extent we need AI data centers to have AI and data sovereignty in our public services and in our economy, that's okay. 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.359 But I think this is a bit of a shiny bobble. 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:11.440 And Doug Ford is very vulnerable to chasing shiny baubles. 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:18.319 Agriculture is always, for example, going to create way more jobs than AI data centers are. 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.799 Forestry is gonna create way more jobs than AI data centers are. 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:28.480 Mining, uh, manufacturing is gonna create way more jobs than AI data centers are. 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:34.799 Yet we're spending all this energy and political capital and policy capital talking about AI data centers. 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:43.200 I'm not in principle opposed to them, but I think it's kind of a silly distraction from, again, the big stuff, independent of education and healthcare. 00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:54.880 If you're just talking about industrial policy and economic policy, I could name a half a dozen sectors that that I think are more integral to the growth and diversity and resilience of Ontario's economy than AI data centers, for example. 00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:03.359 Since you deviated from the rapid fire format to give me uh a long and thoughtful answer about that, I'm gonna deviate too and ask a follow-up about AI. 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:10.640 I mean, everywhere people's and the opinion is shifting on AI pretty dramatically, right? 00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:16.000 Like it's a huge, huge issue kind of everywhere that public opinion research gets done. 00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:16.559 Yeah. 00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:24.880 Um in back in 2023, you had a piece in the Hub saying, you know, AI could save our healthcare systems. 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:27.359 Uh, do you still hold that view? 00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:34.000 Is your are your views evolving at all with the with the sort of anxiety levels that are rising in the background? 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:36.960 What how have how have your your views changed? 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:38.480 Uh how have they changed? 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:50.799 And they they haven't fundamentally, and I'm I'm glad I gave the answer I did before you asked that follow-up question, because uh it proved that I'm I'm consistent uh notwithstanding the fact that I didn't know that you had read that article. 00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:54.319 But yeah, I think AI in principle is here to stay. 00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:55.279 It's a good thing. 00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:02.319 I think it's an especially good thing in in certain sectors, and I would identify healthcare as one of those sectors. 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:15.359 Now, maybe that's just because I've worked in that space, so I have a greater familiarity with the impact that technological advancements can make on patient care and in making life better for also caregivers and healthcare workers. 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:22.400 But no, I'm I'm not a I'm not someone who sees a dystopian future because of AI. 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:29.119 I think technology and progress in technology is a good thing, but we have to be thoughtful about how we how we integrate it. 00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:40.720 And and I also know that the the best players in this space, whether you're talking about AI and healthcare or AI and other sectors, the best players in these spaces want robust regulatory environments. 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:44.960 They want to be competing against other good companies. 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.480 They don't want bad apples spoiling the market. 00:30:48.720 --> 00:31:01.920 So, you know, if the if the question is, do we need to regulate AI more or do we need to lean into an economy with AI as a cornerstone, that's a false dichotomy. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:05.599 I know that's not what you're asking, but it's, I think, the way some people phrase it. 00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:19.680 And I think the best way for Ontario to be a leader in AI, both in the public sector and in the private sector, is to have a very robust, predictable regulatory environment that attracts the best of the best companies in this space. 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:20.160 Okay. 00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:23.440 I'm gonna finish my rapid fire, then I'm gonna turn it over to Kyla. 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:29.680 Uh unions, do we gotta make it easier for unions to form, or are the current rules uh pretty good as they are? 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:30.640 Easier. 00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:36.400 I I think we need more folks in in unions, again, both in the public sector and private sector. 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:41.279 We have seen our working class hollowed out over the last several years. 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:46.000 And and that's a trend that extends beyond um the last decade. 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:54.079 But I would say in the last decade, especially, there's there's been a hollowing out of our working class, and unions are one of

the ways to build up a robust working class. 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:57.839 So I'm pro-union in both, again, the public sector and private sector. 00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:05.119 So still on the topic of the working class, uh, minimum wage is currently$17.60 an hour. 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:14.559 Is uh is would uh would$25 an hour be uh be uh enough for an Ontarian to live on? 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:16.240 It's$50,000 a year. 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:18.000 How little is too little? 00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:20.160 What would you do about the medium the minimum wage? 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:25.759 Yeah, I so I was in Premier Wynn's office when when we made a commitment to increase the minimum wage. 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.160 That was the right thing to do at the time. 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:30.880 And it was way more popular than people realized. 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:39.200 There were a few folks rattling sabers on this, but um, most Ontarians knew it was the right thing to do and it was a smart thing to do for our economy. 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:44.319 I eventually we should be at$25 or$22 or$23. 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:49.039 That that number seems reasonable to me, but it's a question of how fast. 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:55.200 And that was the question that we wrestled with as a provincial government when I was working for premier win. 00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:01.119 So if the goal is 22, just to pick a number out of the air, that's a good goal. 00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:02.480 Do we get there in three years? 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:04.000 Do we get there in two and a half years? 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:05.039 Do we get there in four years? 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.960 That's a that's a discussion that I think we should be having as a party and as a province. 00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:11.359 But yeah, of course we should have a higher minimum wage. 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.960 And just to put an exclamation point on this, I'm bad at rapid answers, clearly. 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:32.640 But just to put an exclamation point on this, I will, I will say one of my earliest commitments in this campaign was a commitment to eliminate provincial personal personal income tax on anything under$50,000 if you're 35 years old or younger. 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:37.359 Um, I I think you know$50,000 isn't a lot of money. 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:38.960 It doesn't go as far as it used to. 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:51.119 And I don't think the provincial government should be collecting income taxes on anything under$50,000, especially if you're a young worker and a young family who need that, who needs that money to pay for your groceries, to pay for your rent and save up for that first-time home. 00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:54.400 So there's clearly an affordability challenge that we're facing. 00:33:54.480 --> 00:34:02.400 And what I take from your question, and the reason I bring up my tax commitment here, is that to tackle affordability, you need to come at it from three directions. 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:11.119 Yeah, you need to control prices to the extent you can, but you also have to boost boost wages and you also have to cut taxes, at least for certain groups. 00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:17.440 And if you can do all three of those things, you're gonna be giving a big boost to young workers and young families. 00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:18.159 All right. 00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:19.199 Thanks so much, Dylan. 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:20.800 Kyla, over to you. 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:29.440 Um So I get the joy of talking to you about like Gabe, Gabe always gets like the meaty like policy stuff. 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:32.960 And then I get to talk politics, which is you know, the way that I love it. 00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.280 But I actually have one that's sort of PhDs. 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:36.000 That's right. 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:37.360 Well, yeah. 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:44.719 Um uh I I I do want to start actually on one question that sort of brings the two together. 00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:48.000 So we had Eric Lombardi on the podcast previously. 00:34:48.159 --> 00:35:00.159 Um, and I can't help but, you know, in this race, and we we, you know, I feel like all the leadership candidates always end up having sort of like a role that they're playing in the race or or a way, uh a positioning kind of. 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:04.960 And I can't help but draw a parallel to a certain extent between you and Eric. 00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:07.440 You are both of a new generation. 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:13.440 Um, you're both, neither of you have been elected, um, elected previously. 00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.840 You're both thought of as kind of policy wonks. 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:20.800 Um, and Eric's approach, I think, around policy has been to put out a lot of it, right? 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:24.079 He put out a hundred and four pages worth of policy. 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:28.079 Um, but that's not really the the path that your campaign has taken. 00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:32.800 I can't, I don't know of like a what is the kind of signature De La Mirando policy. 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.920 So I'm I'm I'm curious about that, I guess just that that decision tactically. 00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:38.639 Yeah. 00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:42.719 Well, the first thing I'll say is let's stick with the McGuinty Mirando comparison. 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:48.079 I like that, I like that one better than the other one. 00:35:48.480 --> 00:36:01.840 But um yeah, our our the decision to come out with a platform later in the process, and we will be coming out with a platform-esque document, um, was was motivated by, I think, two things. 00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:14.480 One, I wanted to give myself as much time as possible to listen to the membership and as much time as possible to listen to the broader stakeholder community, which is helping to inform my policy vision. 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:21.760 But the second reason I didn't emphasize and haven't

emphasized a lot of policy to this point. 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:23.280 As I said, I've committed to certain things. 00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:27.199 I've committed to a tax cut for folks uh who are under 35. 00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:36.400 I've committed to making comprehensive mental health care part of OHIP, I've committed to smaller class sizes, I've committed to major infrastructure investments in the north. 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:46.719 Uh, but I'm of the view, having worked for a couple premiers and a prime minister in policy jobs, that ideas are the easiest part of government. 00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:49.360 There is no shortage of ideas when you're in government. 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:54.480 You get 100,000 of them from the civil service, you get 200,000 of them from the stakeholder community. 00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:58.400 You get even more of that, more than that from your membership at your policy convention. 00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:01.119 So coming up with good ideas isn't a hard thing. 00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:03.199 It can be done pretty quickly when you're in government. 00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:06.639 The hardest thing to do is to prioritize. 00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:12.400 It's to say, here are the three or four or maybe five things that I'm gonna go to the wall for. 00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:14.719 And then you got to execute. 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:17.679 You have to show that you're able to deliver. 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.000 Promise made, promise kept. 00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:21.599 And that's what I'm bringing to the table. 00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:25.199 I'm not bringing 100 ideas because that's cheap, right? 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:26.400 Talk is cheap. 00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:28.239 I'm bringing a capacity to execute. 00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.639 I was at the table for$10 a day childcare. 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:32.320 I was at the table for dental care. 00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.280 I was at the table for tax cuts for small businesses. 00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:36.800 I know how to get stuff done. 00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:37.760 I know how to win. 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:38.719 I know how to govern. 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:40.159 That's my value proposition. 00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:46.800 And I will just say, since we brought up the other candidates, I'm the only person in this race who's done that in provincial government. 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:50.159 No one in this race other than me has spent a day in provincial government. 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:54.559 No one in this race has worked in a leader's office before, except me, and I've worked in three. 00:37:54.639 --> 00:38:01.199 And I also have the unique experience of having worked in the executive offices of both provincial and federal government. 00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:14.960 So if we're getting into a resume measuring contest, and I say this with great affection and respect for all the talent that's being brought by the other leadership candidates, I'm happy to get into that contest every

day of the week and twice on Sunday. 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:22.400 Um, I saw some criticism of the leadership debate, which was um that no one would say anything nice about Doug Ford. 00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.360 And that was not really an opinion that I held. 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:27.840 I felt like if anything, people were too nice. 00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:29.519 There was not enough contrast. 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.280 Um, so I commend you. 00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:42.000 I guess you you brought that spirit today, a little bit, a little bit more uh we'll say scrappiness, a little bit um more uh yeah, yeah, uh attention, points, points of disagreement. 00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:48.480 Um, but I'll I'll be a helpful, I guess, liberal and direct focus to Doug Ford. 00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:56.559 Um and uh I think that you know, one of the challenges that the OLP has had has been in clearly defining him. 00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:04.719 I think sometimes when there are many targets, it's hard to choose one and like what is the the the one thing, the primary thing that people should be focused on. 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:06.880 Um so I'll put that to you. 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:17.519 What do you think is his kind of fatal flaw, not his laundry list of of negative attributes, but what is like the one thing that you think is is his kind of undoing? 00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:28.079 Well, it it this point is not unrelated to the point I just made, because Doug's Shakespearean flaw is that he doesn't get anything done. 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:29.760 He says all the right things. 00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:34.159 He talks about fixing healthcare, he talks about fixing education, but he doesn't deliver. 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:39.199 He's been in power for eight years now, soon to be a decade. 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:40.400 And what's better? 00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:45.360 Our hospitals aren't better, our schools aren't better, our economy isn't more resilient. 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:52.239 And for the first couple years, he was able to skate by blaming uh Premier Wynne and and maybe Premier McGuinty. 00:39:52.320 --> 00:40:06.400 And then he was blaming uh Prime Minister Trudeau, and occasionally he'll blame a mayor that he doesn't like, but he's run out of people to blame, and and he's run out of time, and he just can't get stuff done. 00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:09.280 And I think there's a whole bunch of reasons why that's the case. 00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:13.280 He thinks he's the mayor of Toronto, not the not the premier of Ontario. 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.559 So he's he's focused on the wrong things. 00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:26.559 Uh he does have a tendency to to chase shiny objects, whether that's in municipal jurisdiction, provincial jurisdiction, federal jurisdiction, or or none of the above. 00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.920 I I one one member of my team put it well. 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.159 You know, Doug Ford gives us all these things that we didn't ask for. 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:40.079 Uh yet he gives us nothing that we did ask for, and that he promised us when he came to government. 00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:42.880 So it's an incapacity to to deliver. 00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:55.920 It's an it's I think a a lack of capability to manage the machine of public policy, to manage the ecosystem of public policy and deliver results that make an impact on Ontario families right now. 00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:00.320 So what I'm hearing, it's because we still don't have that buck of beer. 00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:04.239 Well, I mean, again, that's that's kind of an extreme example, right? 00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:10.320 Even something as straightforward as that that is so core to his brand, he can't deliver. 00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:21.840 Um I'm curious, you know, you talked, you started off the the very front of the interview talking about, you know, that that you are someone who can beat Doug Ford. 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:22.239 Yeah. 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:26.079 Um I'm not sure, you know, obviously you're in a leadership race. 00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:38.559 The general is sort of a a theory at at this point, but I'm curious how much you are kind of looking ahead and what ideas you have around how you will ultimately defeat him? 00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:49.440 Is it just that he will, you know, defeat himself, or is there something that the OLP needs to do differently tactically, um, in terms of policy ideas, in terms of team? 00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:52.800 Like what what do you think is the the secret sauce? 00:41:53.199 --> 00:42:02.000 I think in the next general election, and and I will open a parentheses here and say, I genuinely believe that I'm the most selectable in a general election of the leadership candidates. 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:08.719 I know that I'm an underdog in the leadership race, but in a general election, I think I'm the most selectable of the five folks that are on stage. 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:11.039 And I wouldn't be running if I didn't think that was the case. 00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:15.039 Um, in terms of what my strategy is, it's not to attack Doug Ford. 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:18.159 We we have tried that a couple times. 00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:24.239 Um, I don't know that folks want to see a party that defines itself in opposition to something else. 00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:27.840 I think folks want to see a party with a positive plan about their future. 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:33.039 I'll also go back to the point I made before, which is that Doug Ford has has dug his own grave, right? 00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:36.400 And I'm happy to be the guy that gives them the final nudge into it. 00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:48.880 But ultimately, 99% of my effort is going to be about growing our party, making sure that we have, for example, nominated candidates in 124 writings within 100 days of me being leader. 00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:50.480 That's something that I've that I've promised. 00:42:50.559 -->

00:42:52.159 It's something I feel really strongly about. 00:42:52.320 --> 00:43:00.400 I think we have an outstanding roster of candidates that ran in 2022 and 2025, who should who we should be doing everything we can to get to run again. 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:10.639 And then there's an army of school board trustees and local counselors who want to run against the conservatives in the next election, and that probably fills out close to the um the rest of the seats. 00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:16.639 And we'll have small business owners and caregivers and all sorts of folks who raise their hand as well. 00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:23.039 But focusing on the nomination of candidates early so folks are knocking on doors for three years, that's a big part of winning. 00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:27.760 Not focusing on Doug Ford and presenting a positive plan is a big part of winning. 00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:34.239 And in terms of overall tone, and you folks appreciate this given the work that you do, vibe is very important in politics these days. 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:36.159 We want to be the happy warriors. 00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:43.599 We want to be the folks who are making Ontarians believe that tomorrow is going to be better than yesterday. 00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:45.679 Fundamentally, that's the business we're in. 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:48.559 We're in the business of hope, and we have to be good at that. 00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:50.159 And we have to really believe it. 00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:53.920 And I said before in the earlier question, I'm I'm a romantic guy, for good or for ill. 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.280 That that's how I've been wired. 00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:58.239 So I actually believe that tomorrow is going to be better than today. 00:43:58.400 --> 00:43:59.599 And so when we carry that forward. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:10.960 When we carry that message forward, we better make sure that the people who are carrying it forward can act actually believe it and have the capacity to deliver on it because people smell inauthenticity in politicians. 00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:15.119 And we need to be both hopeful and authentic about that hope in the next general. 00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:21.519 Um you made the point that you think that you are the most electable kind of in in in a general. 00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:31.519 So I um I I am actually curious of how you sort of think of yourself in the race in relative to the other leadership hopefuls. 00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:49.519 Um I I'm curious who do you think of as, you know, I know I know you are shy to maybe, or your your the point of your campaign in a general isn't necessarily contrast with with Doug Ford, but I'm right now you are a in a menu of options of of potential leadership races. 00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:57.039 I'm curious who you see yourself as kind of the most different than in the slate of leadership candidates. 00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:14.800 I I'm I'm reluctant to name names uh on this one, but I I will

say that I don't think every leadership candidate on the stage has the same set of values and prioritizes the same set of policies. 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:22.159 My my non-negotiables, as I said before, are publicly funded education and publicly funded healthcare. 00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:27.599 I think we need to be building up the workforces in those spaces, including the unionized workforces. 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:34.000 I think we need to value our workers much more, better pay, better pensions, better benefits, better training. 00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:37.039 I believe in the value of public services. 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:41.840 I believe that the job of a premier is to build up our public services. 00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:44.159 The market doesn't always have the right answer. 00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:49.360 And in fact, the thing that is going to make or break our economy is the talent of our workforce. 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:54.719 But the thing that makes or breaks the talent of our workforce is our publicly funded education system. 00:45:54.960 --> 00:46:01.360 And that includes early learning and childcare, it includes K-12, it includes our post-secondary education system and our apprenticeship. 00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:03.280 So that's the thing that I'm going to go to the wall for. 00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:05.119 That those are my non-negotiables. 00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:18.400 And without naming names, I think there are actually a couple candidates on the stage who don't have that in the center of their mind and who won't have that on the center of their desk as premier the same way I will. 00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:19.039 Okay. 00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:25.920 And to get to the point of electability in a general election, I ultimately think that's how liberals are going to win. 00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:27.760 Publicly funded education. 00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:29.280 We need to own that issue. 00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:33.280 We need to remind folks of all the work we did there and all we achieved there. 00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:35.360 That's where we have a ton of credibility. 00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:42.159 And I think there are a lot of families across this province who realize that's that's a part of our system that is broken. 00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:47.039 And that's particularly problematic because publicly funded education isn't just good for our kids. 00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:48.159 It's good for our kids. 00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:58.880 It's good for the economic mobility of parents, it's good for our future economic workforce, and it's also good for a very large workforce that presently works in our education system. 00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:04.079 So that's the issue that I think should be the issue for us in the next general election. 00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:04.639 Okay. 00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:06.719 Well, that's a great place, I think, to leave it. 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:21.280 Of course, we always have our final question, uh, which is what's a source

of data on our or or source of information on our political culture that you follow or read and that you think our listeners should be paying attention to as well? 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:25.360 So my my answer on this is the rest is history. 00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.079 It's a great podcast that I listen to a lot. 00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:44.159 And it's probably a strange, strange answer because it's not by definition, it's not very topical, but you'd be surprised um how much you can learn about contemporary politics by listening to a story about, you know, 18th century European politics. 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:49.360 So when I when I need to calm down, um that's that's what I listen to. 00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:52.880 Um and I would recommend that that your listeners check it out too. 00:47:53.199 --> 00:48:03.760 Yeah, I mean, I that feels like a very apt um the the the comparison of of the past to the present and and the relevance feels feels pretty compared to it. 00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:05.039 On brand. 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:06.000 Yes. 00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:06.960 Okay, awesome. 00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:08.239 Well, thank you so much, Dylan. 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:09.920 This was a really great conversation. 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:11.440 I I learned a lot about you. 00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:13.440 I learned a lot about Dalton McGinty. 00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:15.039 Um it's fantastic. 00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:16.400 Thanks for having me on. 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:17.199 I really appreciate it. 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:18.320 Thanks, Dylan. 00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:24.239 It's time for random sample. 00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:26.400 Gabe, what's on your radar this week? 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:34.400 Well, uh, we're recording on Saturday the 22nd, and given that it uh last night we had the collapse of the Canada-U.S. 00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:41.039 trade negotiations, I wanted to bring in some uh recent data on Canadians' outlook on this specific question. 00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:45.760 So I'm looking at some numbers from Abacus that they released uh earlier this week. 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:53.760 Uh Canadians were prepared for these talks, whether they concluded a deal or not to impose tariff pain. 00:48:54.079 --> 00:49:01.039 Uh 78% believed that there was at least a 50-50 chance that the higher tariff levels would come into effect. 00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:04.880 And nearly four in 10 thought that there was a likely chance. 00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:06.239 Well, here we are. 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:14.079 As of this recording, 50% tariffs on something like$20 billion of Canadian exports to the U.S. 00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:20.800 with a carve-out for energy, critical minerals, and potash, the uh U.S. 00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:25.679 showing where they think they're uh most vulnerable, maybe with that uh collection of goods. 00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:31.920 But uh Prime Minister Kearney has proposed to match those tariffs dollar for dollar starting on September 8th. 00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:35.360 And uh here's where Canadians are a little more divided, though. 00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:45.119 Uh more than a third of Canadians are on side with retaliatory tariffs, but that number's at only 36% in Abacus's survey. 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:50.000 30%, almost as high, want just more negotiations. 00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:51.840 They don't want counter-tariffs. 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:58.719 And even 18% favor actually giving concessions to the Americans. 00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:01.920 Uh, conservative voters are the most divided on this question. 00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:09.360 There's an even split between retaliation, negotiation without retaliation, and uh concessions. 00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:14.079 Liberals and NDP voters are more likely to have their elbows up. 00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:21.519 Finally, Prime Minister Kearney attributed the decision to walk away from the talks as having to do in no small part with restrictions the U.S. 00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:26.159 wanted to impose on Canada's ability to make trade agreements with other countries. 00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:30.000 Here, Prime Minister Kearney is on more solid ground with Canadians. 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:42.239 55% are ready to just move on from Kuzma and uh look at other countries, including 60% of liberal and bloc voters and 72% of NDP voters. 00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:47.599 Only a third of the Canadians want the government to keep working to preserve it. 00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:56.400 Uh, looking back to those first rounds of tariffs when Trump started a second term, even the extremely unpopular Justin Trudeau got a bump after standing up to Trump. 00:50:56.639 --> 00:51:08.159 The numbers from Abacus show that Prime Minister Carney is on solid footing, at least at the start of this period of increased uncertainty and unfortunately likely pain. 00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:11.519 Kylo, what uh what's your random sample this week? 00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:16.400 Yeah, I'm also paying attention to the the trade situation. 00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:25.440 It always takes a beat for um the pollsters to, for a couple different reasons, for pollsters to really understand what public reaction is. 00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:31.679 Partially, you need people to be actually exposed to what has happened and have time to digest it. 00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:44.960 Um and then obviously we need a little a moment to to collect data, but it's always helpful to take a look at Google Trends and and and what is kind of popping in in search terms and and how much this is registering. 00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:52.320 Um and if you look over the last three months, this moment, so in the last 24 hours, is receiving three times. 00:51:52.400 --> 00:52:02.320 So Mark Carney is receiving three times as many searches over that, that in over that first, what are we even at, like 16 hours period. 00:52:02.719 --> 00:52:07.679 Uh more searches, three times more searches than at any moment in time over the past three months. 00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:15.119 So definitely something that is going to grab or is grabbing some some attention even at this point. 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:21.760 Um, and something that um I yeah, I think will have an impact and we'll see exactly kind of what that impact is. 00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:42.480 Um, one of the rising kind of search queries also was uh Howard Lutnick, which um is is a very interesting sub, well, I don't know if it's a subplot, but um a big part of this story and and something that it's I don't think it's all it's all that uh common that he would be a major character in this story, but here here he is. 00:52:42.639 --> 00:52:50.159 So, anyways, um something that we'll be uh paying attention to over the coming week and we'll see see what happens politically. 00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:51.039 Well, very good. 00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:52.639 That is our show for this week. 00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:55.280 A huge thanks to Dylan for joining us in the lab. 00:52:55.440 --> 00:53:02.800 We also want to send our thanks to our sponsors for helping to keep this show free for you and to you, our lab rats. 00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:07.920 And a reminder that you can find the data that we referenced in the show notes. 00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:10.239 And uh, Gabe, where can the people find you? 00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:13.519 I am at Gabe DeRoche on all the platforms. 00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:19.599 And you can find me at Kay Renolmsic on all of the social mediums and relay with Kylo Renolcich on Slubstack. 00:53:19.679 --> 00:53:21.119 We will see you all again next week. 00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:22.400 Bye bye. 00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:26.559 Welcome to the Culture Lab.