Interview with Charles Haywood: NETTR, Franco, & Camp of the Saints ၏ စာသားမှတ်တမ်းအပြည့်အစုံ

00:05:03.584 --> 00:05:04.449 We want to see you there. 00:05:04.449 --> 00:05:12.373 If ticket pricing is an issue, we do encourage you to send an email to Cassie at newchristendepresscom. 00:05:12.373 --> 00:05:14.065 And we want you there. 00:05:14.065 --> 00:05:15.365 We'd love to have you there. 00:05:15.365 --> 00:05:19.322 So we'll work with you on pricing if that's an issue for you and your family. 00:05:19.322 --> 00:05:28.346 But if you are just looking for some amazing prices discounted prices anyway, follow the link in the show notes and join us in Ogden, utah, june 6th through 8th. 00:05:28.346 --> 00:05:31.087 We're going to jump now into the episode. 00:05:31.087 --> 00:05:36.750 Again, special thanks to Charles Haywood for joining us for this episode of the Hardman Podcast. 00:05:36.750 --> 00:05:49.576 Well, welcome to the Hardman Podcast. 00:05:49.576 --> 00:05:57.144 I'm your host, eric Kahn, and joined today by a very special guest we have Mr Charles Haywood. 00:05:57.164 --> 00:05:57.765 Charles, thanks for joining me. 00:05:57.765 --> 00:05:58.247 I am pleased to be here. 00:05:58.247 --> 00:06:01.096 I'm a little bit ashamed because I do not have as lush a beard. 00:06:01.096 --> 00:06:06.151 You know that's when I grow a beard I look like pervy Santa. 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:09.403 You know, to each his own. 00:06:09.403 --> 00:06:11.510 We've got guys in our building the same deal. 00:06:11.510 --> 00:06:13.543 If you can grow it, grow it. 00:06:13.543 --> 00:06:14.745 If not, you know. 00:06:15.007 --> 00:06:15.788 I can grow it. 00:06:16.110 --> 00:06:17.312 I just look like a creep. 00:06:19.882 --> 00:06:20.842 I just look like a creep. 00:06:20.842 --> 00:06:28.450 You know I'm capable, I'm virile, I really am, but I just look bad and my wife is absolutely opposed to it. 00:06:28.450 --> 00:06:32.093 So I did it once, like 10 years ago, and it was not well received by anybody. 00:06:32.093 --> 00:06:33.175 You know your place. 00:06:33.175 --> 00:06:33.935 Yeah, that's right. 00:06:34.195 --> 00:06:34.817 No, that's awesome. 00:06:34.817 --> 00:06:42.659 Well, charles, I want to start the conversation by something that I think is gaining traction, at least among the right, in this concept of netter. 00:06:42.659 --> 00:06:45.769 We'll talk about a few articles that you've written on this. 00:06:45.769 --> 00:06:48.348 I know a couple over the last few years. 00:06:48.348 --> 00:06:53.812 But, in your thinking, just where did this come from and why was it an issue that you started to address? 00:06:54.979 --> 00:07:21.832 Well, the people on the right, or people who say they're on the right, historically over the past I'd say couple of decades, going way back when, to say when William F Buckley was ascendant, which I'm old enough to remember kind of the latter stages of that they talked a lot about how they wanted to do X, y and Z and accomplish A, b and C, but in practice, what they spent most of their time was pandering to what the left wanted, or rather the limits that the left set upon them. 00:07:21.832 --> 00:07:36.194 That is, the left would say you can do these kind of things, but you need to make sure that you police your rightward boundary and spend 90, 80% of your energy on doing that and not actually do anything that might push back against the left in any meaningful way. 00:07:36.194 --> 00:07:54.363 In other words, the left would allow the right to be performative, but anything that was smacked of actual accomplishment or of being too far right wing was something the left did not permit, and people on the right were happy to buy into this because what they really wanted was social acceptability. 00:07:54.363 --> 00:07:57.170 I mean, william F Buckley was a prime example of that. 00:07:57.170 --> 00:08:07.241 His wife was actually worse, but you know, this was back when there was a plausible case to be made that the right had a path to electoral victory back in the days of Reagan and so on. 00:08:07.603 --> 00:08:21.069 So you could maybe I'm being a little bit unfair, you could be say well, you know, that made more sense because he wants to attract the normie voter and not be too far right wing, leaving aside, of course, that the left wing there was no such thing and never has been as too far left wing. 00:08:21.569 --> 00:08:36.841 But as it's developed and as the left has gained total power over the narrative and so on what Mike Anton calls the narrative and the megaphone the right has increasingly ghettoized itself by allowing the left to dictate what it must do and what it must not do. 00:08:36.841 --> 00:08:52.608 And in particular, you see this with people who are prominent, who want to be considered socially acceptable by the kinds of people who write for the New York Times and there's a wide range of people like that and they spend a lot of their time policing the rightward boundaries and demanding that other people do that. 00:08:52.608 --> 00:09:04.148 The net effect of that, of course, is to prevent the right from accomplishing anything, even in these days when, paradoxically, the right is more able to accomplish things than it has been in the past, for a variety of reasons. 00:09:04.467 --> 00:09:18.546 So, I got irritated with this, and so I wrote this piece, which was an outflow of something I had commented on someone else's Twitter feed, and he had gotten all hurt that I said no enemies to the right, and then I was forced to write a whole long piece on it and a couple of long pieces on it. 00:09:18.546 --> 00:09:53.458 So, while it's not a new concept, I'm kind of associated with its most recent incarnation. 00:09:53.719 --> 00:10:00.711 Yeah, that's helpful, and one of the articles where I first found this was on I Am 1776, no Enemies to the Right. 00:10:00.711 --> 00:10:04.603 Dc Miller vs Charles Haywood, One of the things that's interesting to me. 00:10:04.603 --> 00:10:10.715 You mentioned Buckley, but you actually tie

this to scrutinism as well and to Roger Scruton. 00:10:10.715 --> 00:10:14.187 Buckley, but you actually tie this to scrutinism as well and to Roger Scruton. 00:10:14.187 --> 00:10:18.844 So for people who aren't familiar, this is sort of the beautiful loser type mentality among conservatives, but kind of unpack it for me. 00:10:18.844 --> 00:10:19.745 What is scrutinism? 00:10:19.745 --> 00:10:25.370 What's the tie then to Buckley and kind of the development of, I guess, moderate to conservative thought? 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.982 Sure, I mean Scruton, the late Roger Scruton. 00:10:28.982 --> 00:10:31.984 I'm not really down on Scruton as such. 00:10:31.984 --> 00:10:34.644 It's a little bit unfair, because I have a lot of admiration for Scruton. 00:10:34.644 --> 00:10:39.088 I don't have a lot of admiration in some cases for some of these figures, but for Scruton I have a lot of admiration. 00:10:39.108 --> 00:11:14.221 He was a very deep thinker, a very interesting man of being, as you say, a beautiful loser, and I think he had a book I think it's what is Conservatism or something where he literally ends the book and Patrick Deneen did this in his most recent book, regime Change too where he literally ends the book saying, yeah, everything's terrible, yeah, we're losing, but isn't it wonderful we can sit in the evening in a country churchyard and I'm like what is this in a country churchyard? 00:11:14.221 --> 00:11:14.923 And I'm like what is this? 00:11:14.923 --> 00:11:15.224 This is stupid. 00:11:15.224 --> 00:11:17.831 So beautiful loser is the idea that not only it's two things. 00:11:17.831 --> 00:11:19.336 One is the churchyard. 00:11:19.336 --> 00:11:30.181 Like we're literally a beautiful loser, like we surround ourselves with nature and we ignore the fact that right down the road the Muslim gangs are raping our daughters and the police are locking you up for hate crimes or pointing it out. 00:11:30.181 --> 00:11:33.603 So that's kind of obvious beautiful loser. 00:11:33.603 --> 00:12:04.461 A second part of it related part is the desire not to be boat not so much in a way of becoming unemployable, much short of that just the kind of person who the right kind of people don't turn up their noses at, who's allowed to do those things and scrutiny wasn't really that and that's a little bit unfair. 00:12:04.461 --> 00:12:09.543 But there are many other examples of people like that, certainly on the right, and historically have been. 00:12:09.562 --> 00:12:11.206 I also refer to this. 00:12:11.206 --> 00:12:14.934 One of the tells of this is what I call preemptive apologies. 00:12:14.934 --> 00:12:21.576 So you very commonly see this in any kind of what's the word? 00:12:21.576 --> 00:12:39.543 Not really mainstream, but a right-wing person who's allowed to publish in the right kinds of newspapers or journals or appear on the right kinds of television and PR or what have you, or radio, always begins whatever he says with a lengthy set of

preemptive apologies about whatever I'm going to say. 00:12:39.543 --> 00:12:44.622 Conservatives have certainly done as bad or as worse and will in the future and currently are doing. 00:12:44.622 --> 00:12:51.413 But, if I might make a little point, the left is doing something bad too. 00:12:51.413 --> 00:12:53.768 But we should talk about how conservatives do bad things. 00:12:53.768 --> 00:13:00.293 So preemptive apologies is part of being not so much a beautiful loser but just plain loser. 00:13:00.800 --> 00:13:09.083 Yeah Well, and you see that I mean from Buckley all the way to Dreher, which you mentioned, rod Dreher in the article, but I think it's helpful. 00:13:09.083 --> 00:13:22.546 You start with beginning with the end in mind, and I think this is something among conservatives that you typically don't see, and you have a definition of winning that I think, again, most people are not familiar with and it's not their line of thinking. 00:13:22.546 --> 00:13:36.162 So, as you think about what's going on in progressive left circles in America, who has the wheels of power, institutional power, what is winning in your view first of all, and why is that so important to keep that kind of at the head of what we're talking about? 00:13:36.403 --> 00:13:36.684 Yeah. 00:13:36.684 --> 00:13:44.689 So I'll define first winning by what it's not, which is winning the next election or regaining control of the Senate or something. 00:13:44.689 --> 00:13:45.772 Those things are useless. 00:13:45.772 --> 00:13:49.168 I mean, obviously they're useless because the Republican Party is useless, it's the uniparty and it's useless for all kind of the obvious reasons. 00:13:49.168 --> 00:13:49.470 So what I mean? 00:13:49.470 --> 00:13:52.580 Obviously they're useless because the Republican Party is useless, it's the uniparty and it's useless for all kind of the obvious reasons. 00:13:52.580 --> 00:14:12.655 So what I mean by winning is the total and utter, permanent defeat of the left, and that means kind of in the short term, obviously, the stripping of all power from the left in terms of institutional capture, whether that's the media or universities or cultural apparatus or entertainment media as well as news media. 00:14:13.321 --> 00:14:18.373 But that in itself is a relatively modest goal, though it doesn't really sound modest. 00:14:18.373 --> 00:14:24.213 The actual goal is the destruction of the left or the discrediting of the left as a philosophy. 00:14:24.213 --> 00:14:30.614 That is, before the 18th century the idea of a leftist was non-existent. 00:14:30.614 --> 00:14:32.013 I mean, yeah, maybe, like Satan in the garden is a leftist was non-existent. 00:14:32.013 --> 00:14:39.487 I mean, yeah, maybe, like Satan in the garden is a leftist and you can make that kind of thing, leaving aside whether the snake in the garden is exactly Satan in your biblical exegesis. 00:14:39.487 --> 00:14:55.649 But your average person 16 something, if you describe

what a leftist believe, would have just regarded you as insane, or someone who really needed to go see his priest or or or his pastor or just needed to be shuffled off to a prison somewhere. 00:14:55.649 --> 00:15:07.955 And so this, the left, is a modern set of a modern ideology that the cast itself as the inevitable end point of history. 00:15:07.955 --> 00:15:22.686 I mean, it's enlightenment philosophy at its core, and even the propagandistic name given to it is designed to make people think that in the past we weren't enlightened and now we're enlightened and we're leftist, and that's the way it's always going to be so until leftism is completely discredited. 00:15:22.787 --> 00:15:29.530 In the same way that I like to analogize it to Mithraism, the bull cult of the late Roman Empire, popular among soldiers. 00:15:29.530 --> 00:15:31.133 We know something about Mithraism. 00:15:31.133 --> 00:15:32.545 It happened a long time ago. 00:15:32.545 --> 00:15:36.911 No one claims to be a Mithrist or Mithraist or whatever it is today. 00:15:36.911 --> 00:15:38.446 It's an archaeological thing. 00:15:38.446 --> 00:15:40.929 So people should say, yeah, there used to be these people called leftists. 00:15:40.929 --> 00:15:42.365 Yeah, they destroyed the world. 00:15:42.365 --> 00:15:53.489 Yeah, if you believe in that, you need to be sent for reeducation down picking sugar beads for a couple of years until you learn what real life is all about, and that's that. 00:15:53.489 --> 00:15:56.902 That doesn't mean that there's a specific thing should necessarily replace that. 00:15:56.902 --> 00:15:57.805 What should replace it? 00:15:57.805 --> 00:16:12.884 I have various opinions on, but fundamentally you want to replace it with a non-leftist, that is, reality-based political philosophy, hopefully one that's not all that different from the one that we've lived under so far, but you have to remove its execrations. 00:16:13.365 --> 00:16:20.907 Yeah, that's really helpful and so kind of what comes out of this is a different approach, right With, originally formulated as Netter. 00:16:20.907 --> 00:16:31.138 Recently you're writing about N-E-O-T-R no enemies on the right so I guess, walk me through that approach. 00:16:31.138 --> 00:16:37.133 Why does it matter and what's the fundamental approach you're espousing for the right in this case? 00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:37.639 Yeah. 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:57.942 So no enemies to the right is the pithy original formulation of it, and the reason it's to the right in that kind of off the cuff formulation is because the original phrase was no enemies to the left, used by Alexander Kerensky when he unwisely decided not to kill Lenin while he had the chance because he's like. 00:16:57.942 --> 00:17:05.149 No enemies to the left, we need to focus on the people who are to the right and that didn't do Kerensky or the Russian people any favors. 00:17:05.149 --> 00:17:07.415 So he was wrong in a sense. 00:17:07.415 --> 00:17:09.747 So maybe it's not the analogy. 00:17:09.747 --> 00:17:13.942 The phrase is taken from that, but the political analogy is by no means exact. 00:17:13.942 --> 00:17:26.537 But when you say no enemies to the right, then your threshold inquiry necessarily is well, if I'm at point X on the right, where is that other person relative to me on the right? 00:17:26.537 --> 00:17:40.509 On the right, and not only is that kind of a fruitless inquiry for the most part because it's very as I'll come to when I come to definitions it's very difficult to say you know where the line left to right inside the right any given person is. 00:17:40.509 --> 00:17:49.486 You could spend the rest of your life arguing about that in many cases and of course the left wants you to argue about that once you get caught in this, which leads, of course, to a purity spiral as well. 00:17:49.486 --> 00:17:57.301 That is, if the farther right you are, then the fewer enemies you have to your right, and so people can. 00:17:57.301 --> 00:18:02.152 It's an incentive to move farther to the right when that's really irrelevant. 00:18:02.152 --> 00:18:08.403 The point is not to decide where on the right you are or how you need to be farther to the right because you're too close to the left. 00:18:09.146 --> 00:18:10.169 The inquiry is binary. 00:18:10.169 --> 00:18:21.870 I define the left as very precisely, as the philosophy of the Enlightenment, based upon unlimited emancipation and total egalitarianism in the service of a utopia here on earth, heaven on earth. 00:18:21.870 --> 00:18:27.915 This is very straightforward, and I stole that definition from Roger Scruton, though, to be fair. 00:18:27.915 --> 00:18:32.008 So another reason I don't like to rag on Scruton was my core definition. 00:18:32.008 --> 00:18:52.532 I basically stole from him, which stole is the wrong word, because I try to give him credit, but he doesn't return my calls anymore, and so that was low, anyway, and so so right in this context is then defined as not left, so that encompasses a very broad range of things. 00:18:52.532 --> 00:19:04.120 Of necessity, anything that's not left is right, and that can be a huge range of things, and so, therefore, that's double the reason why comparing yourself to other people on the right is a threshold. 00:19:04.120 --> 00:19:06.862 Inquiry is a waste of time yeah, yeah, really helpful. 00:19:07.142 --> 00:19:37.938 and one of the things you see, I guess, is a lot of the infighting on the right is, in the roger air style, particularly guarding the right flank um, you hear this language all the time, um, and what I usually hear is it's usually phrases like a tactical or wisdom issue, where we say, listen, we need to frame the message for the people to the left of us wherever you are on the spectrum, but we especially, as Dreher did for years, we have to save our fierce attacks for those on the right. 00:19:37.938 --> 00:19:44.967 So, in your estimation, why is this a

mistake and why does it actually defeat that end goal that you mentioned in the beginning? 00:19:45.409 --> 00:19:49.469 Well, you have to decide what another definition is, which is enemies. 00:19:49.469 --> 00:20:03.372 So enemy, in the kind of Carl Schmitt definition, is someone who existentially threatens your way of life, and so the left off necessity threatens everyone's way of life, as we just have to look around us to say. 00:20:03.372 --> 00:20:09.056 So that means you shouldn't have enemies on the right in the sense of wanting to destroy those people. 00:20:09.056 --> 00:20:21.172 Destroy those people not physically necessarily, but in terms of, for example, the most common method of this, and one that Dreyer is past master at, is trying to get someone's livelihood destroyed so he can't feed their family and so on. 00:20:21.172 --> 00:20:29.705 So he can then claim look how pure I am and how good I am because these people were a threat, and of course he never says what that threat is, how good I am because these people were a threat, and of course he never says what that threat is. 00:20:29.705 --> 00:20:36.794 What they were a threat are as to his ability to be not spat upon by the leftist whose good opinion he craves. 00:20:36.794 --> 00:20:47.945 But that doesn't mean that you can't say person X on the right is a total too willing idiot, or I mean, like Rod Dreher's on the right, he's not a total too willing idiot. 00:20:47.945 --> 00:20:50.051 He's actually done a lot of good work and so on. 00:20:50.051 --> 00:20:52.546 I certainly don't want to remove Rod Dreher's livelihood. 00:20:52.546 --> 00:20:54.269 I wish Rod Dreher the best. 00:20:54.269 --> 00:21:00.219 He should go do his thing, but he doesn't take that. 00:21:00.219 --> 00:21:03.689 He wants to destroy people on the right and I don't think we should spend. 00:21:03.689 --> 00:21:14.431 I mean, I feel a little bit bad because when we have these discussions we spend a bunch of time basically slagging Rod Dreher because he's the kind of the origin of a lot of this stuff and I don't really mean to do that. 00:21:14.471 --> 00:21:19.694 I think most of these things should be done as privately as possible to a certain extent, especially in. 00:21:19.694 --> 00:21:25.552 I mean, the fact is that not a lot of our enemies are going to watch our podcasts because they think we're all losers. 00:21:25.552 --> 00:21:27.114 And why would they watch our podcast? 00:21:27.114 --> 00:21:32.061 So we're not giving aid and comfort to the left by discussing some of these internal things. 00:21:32.606 --> 00:21:55.990 But I would be very uncomfortable, for example, if an extremely unlikely event the New York Times called me up and said we want to do a piece about Hayward's views of Neoter or Netter, and I would have to struggle very hard not to say negative things about other people on the right because you don't want to give some ammunition to the enemy in order to say, to exploit divisions and just generally increase their power. 00:21:55.990 --> 00:22:00.176 But that doesn't mean you have to cooperate or spend your resources with everybody on the right. 00:22:00.176 --> 00:22:01.202 It just means you don't have to spend. 00:22:01.202 --> 00:22:03.675 You shouldn't spend your time destroying other people on the right. 00:22:03.675 --> 00:22:29.835 You have to be prudential about your actual political actions and if some guy is just an idiot or he holds views that are completely anathema to you like he's violently anti-Christian, for example I mean I don't want to spend my time in political action organizing with that person, nor should I, but at the same time I'm happy to have him go do his thing, as long as it's helping in the overall goal of defeating the left. 00:22:32.406 --> 00:22:39.253 As the saying goes, gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, but debt is the money of slaves. 00:22:40.105 --> 00:22:46.819 If you're tired of seeing your wealth sapped by the silent theft of inflation, consider adding gold to your financial plan. 00:22:46.819 --> 00:22:52.153 Gold and silver have been recognized as sound money and a store of wealth for centuries. 00:22:52.153 --> 00:23:02.491 Converting your savings into gold and silver will protect and preserve your wealth so that one day you'll be able to pass down a true inheritance to your children's children. 00:23:02.491 --> 00:23:14.740 That's where our friends at Alpine Gold Exchange come in, offering 0% buy-sell spread gold leases with up to 3.5% annual return paid in gold, by the way and secure vaulting right here in Utah. 00:23:14.740 --> 00:23:23.539 Alpine Gold approaches every transaction with fairness, honesty and respect, reflecting a strong Christian business ethic in all that. 00:23:23.539 --> 00:23:29.826 They do that they do. 00:23:29.826 --> 00:23:33.901 Head to Ogdengold today or tap the link in the description to sign up or schedule an appointment to speak with an Alpine Gold advisor today and see what would best serve your family. 00:23:33.901 --> 00:23:42.396 And just so you know, if you schedule a call, you'll be speaking with Jace, ethan or Stu, three members of Refuge Church right here in Ogden. 00:23:42.396 --> 00:23:45.034 Head to Ogdengold and check it out today. 00:23:48.506 --> 00:23:49.771 Here at the Hardman Podcast. 00:23:49.771 --> 00:23:52.391 I've spoken with some very successful and competent men. 00:23:52.391 --> 00:23:59.298 Most of these men share a characteristic of delegating to other competent men to manage various aspects of their lives or businesses. 00:23:59.298 --> 00:24:06.505 I've realized that I don't have the time to properly navigate investment portfolios, financial planning and tax strategies. 00:24:06.505 --> 00:24:09.546 It simply takes away from the most important work that I do. 00:24:09.546 --> 00:24:15.228 That's why I've used Joe Garrisi with Backwards Planning Financial to help me with integrated

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here. 00:27:46.137 --> 00:27:49.050 I think that's in play where, quite honestly, it's easier to pander to the left who you know you're is a core issue here. 00:27:49.050 --> 00:27:51.318 I think that's in play where, quite honestly, it's easier to pander to the left who you know. 00:27:51.318 --> 00:27:57.412 You're not a threat to them and you know I guess they're not a threat to you if you're not a threat to them. 00:27:57.412 --> 00:28:12.569 But I also am curious as you talk about a third reason with unmanliness, which is sort of this uh, moral equivalency with right and left, and I wonder if you wouldn't unpack that for me. 00:28:12.569 --> 00:28:15.717 Uh, just just seeing again, that gets to like what an enemy is. 00:28:15.717 --> 00:28:25.258 The third reason that you give right after unmanliness is a third reason is misguided attempt to be ethical, moral and just by positing moral equivalency between the left and right. 00:28:25.258 --> 00:28:28.234 So really, why is that a mistake to to do so? 00:28:28.916 --> 00:28:30.621 well, the biggest, more the left and right. 00:28:30.621 --> 00:28:31.885 So, really, why is that a mistake to do so? 00:28:31.885 --> 00:28:35.028 Well, the left and right are not morally equivalent. 00:28:35.028 --> 00:28:40.768 And this kind of goes back to I don't want to be overly repetitive, but it goes back to the core point, which is the left is affirmatively evil. 00:28:40.768 --> 00:28:48.111 That is, this is not some kind of well, you think the tariff should be 10%, I think the tariff should be 15%. 00:28:48.111 --> 00:28:50.277 We should have a political argument about that. 00:28:50.565 --> 00:29:01.611 I mean, this is an existential, kind of civilizational, world-bestriding, eternal even, distinction between people who are evil and people who are not evil. 00:29:01.611 --> 00:29:04.159 That doesn't mean everyone on the right is good or even not evil. 00:29:04.159 --> 00:29:10.218 It just means that the left's goals are just

inherently evil and inherently destructive of all human flourishing. 00:29:10.218 --> 00:29:15.693 So therefore, there is no moral equivalency and you shouldn't pause it, as people frequently do, as an excuse. 00:29:15.693 --> 00:29:19.812 Well, the left is bad, but the right is bad too, and we have to be even-handed. 00:29:19.812 --> 00:29:21.279 The left is never even-handed. 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:33.791 The left accepts, in their mind, of course, the right is evil because and I understand that within their frame that actually makes a fair bit of sense History has an arrow. 00:29:33.791 --> 00:29:34.615 History is leading us to heaven on earth. 00:29:34.615 --> 00:29:40.495 The right is preventing heaven on earth and therefore is causing untold happiness to the infinite future generations of human beings who are being precluded from reaching this utopia. 00:29:40.495 --> 00:29:45.194 So, therefore, death is the appropriate punishment for the right, and this is the inevitable left logic. 00:29:45.194 --> 00:29:50.891 And it always ends up in mass extermination of people once they gain total power in order to achieve their utopia. 00:29:50.891 --> 00:29:53.133 And this has happened time and again throughout history. 00:29:53.133 --> 00:29:58.197 It'll end up happening here as well if the left continues to gain power at its current rate. 00:29:58.285 --> 00:29:59.388 I mean, there's a little bit. 00:29:59.388 --> 00:30:05.865 There's arguments against that, in the sense that the regime, the left, is very feminized relative to previous regimes. 00:30:05.865 --> 00:30:15.654 So, you know, maybe they're not as into hard power, maybe they're just going to make us all watch, you know, tiktok videos about bad right people instead of putting us in death camps. 00:30:15.654 --> 00:30:37.926 But you know, there's a fundamental instinct is to kill everyone on the right, and unless you're aware of that, you spend your time saying well, you know, joe Blow, over here, said something that I think is really kind of offensive because it was racist, and you know that's terrible, even though, joe Blow, you know, two people saw his statement, and meanwhile, over there, the left is killing babies and mutilating children. 00:30:37.926 --> 00:30:39.470 Oh, moral equivalency. 00:30:39.470 --> 00:30:43.748 Joe Blow said something racist and now over here there's, you know, millions of dead babies. 00:30:43.748 --> 00:30:48.297 I really got to spend equal time at least on Joe because you know he's racist. 00:30:48.297 --> 00:30:51.224 I really got to spend equal time at least on Joe because you know he's a racist. 00:30:51.244 --> 00:30:57.484 I mean it's just, and the reason of course they're doing that isn't because they really think there's moral equivalency, it's because they want to be patted on the back and not attacked. 00:30:57.484 --> 00:30:59.286 I mean that goes back to the unmanliness. 00:30:59.286 --> 00:31:08.034 I mean I'm going to come back to it and I shouldn't, but no one on the left has ever attacked Rod Dreher, other than for being kind of whiny. 00:31:08.034 --> 00:31:11.618 I mean there's no hit pieces on Rod Dreher, there's no. 00:31:11.618 --> 00:31:13.279 Here's where he lives. 00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:16.102 Antifa people don't show up at his house or at his events. 00:31:16.102 --> 00:31:26.526 You know they think he's a harmless egghead who rants for decades about how, every year, how it's worse and it's got to change, you know. 00:31:26.526 --> 00:31:31.469 And so of course that person like that is fundamentally lacking in manliness. 00:31:31.469 --> 00:31:35.167 I'm not saying that Rod Dreher needs to get out there with a stick and start beating people. 00:31:35.167 --> 00:31:36.693 That's a counterproductive thing. 00:31:36.693 --> 00:31:46.187 It's like any kind of propaganda of the deed is always a waste of time, but if people aren't attacking you in a way that threatens you, that should probably tell you something. 00:31:46.929 --> 00:31:53.569 My other question about that is as you think about effective strategies based on that right. 00:31:53.569 --> 00:31:55.293 All that's true, netter, you know. 00:31:55.293 --> 00:31:57.969 Moving forward, do you see groups, entities? 00:31:57.969 --> 00:32:01.898 Where do you see people being successful employing this tactic, if you see it at all? 00:32:03.346 --> 00:32:08.898 I do, and I think you see that kind of happening around us because it has nothing to do with me writing the piece. 00:32:08.898 --> 00:32:10.791 This is merely diagnostic. 00:32:10.791 --> 00:32:12.356 No one's really listening to Haywood. 00:32:12.356 --> 00:32:16.135 Maybe a few people are, but it's not like my message is getting out. 00:32:16.325 --> 00:32:25.300 That's not my claim, but the things that people say now, or able to say now relative to a year ago, are night and day. 00:32:25.300 --> 00:32:32.111 I mean, a large part of it has to do if you're massively online with discourse on Twitter, but that's only part of it. 00:32:32.111 --> 00:32:49.258 People now are able to say with a straight face the obvious truth, which is true for decades, that the left regimes of the West are attempting to replace the white peoples of the West with new, compliant, non-white peoples. 00:32:49.258 --> 00:32:51.191 You know the great replacement theory. 00:32:51.191 --> 00:32:53.613 I mean, that's just obviously true on its face. 00:32:53.613 --> 00:33:05.077 If you used to say that in the past, even a year ago, you are a terrible racist, you are supporting the Christchurch shooter, and now people just say it as a matter of fact because it's obviously true. 00:33:05.077 --> 00:33:10.729 I mean, it's even true in America and Elon Musk deserves a large part of the credit for that. 00:33:11.230 --> 00:33:24.010 But I think that this is an example of the decaying effectiveness of people trying to police their rightward boundaries, because I mean, I haven't seen any real attempt

lately to. 00:33:24.010 --> 00:33:36.451 I've seen the left try to police the rightward boundaries For example, there was an article on me and some other people last week and it was making the rounds and on the Guardian and some other things and but nobody cares. 00:33:36.451 --> 00:33:38.496 I mean there's no attempt by people like no one. 00:33:38.496 --> 00:33:43.383 No one's saying on the right, we need to not associate with these people. 00:33:43.383 --> 00:33:48.657 The only people who are saying that are people like Jonah Goldberg or James Lindsay, who are, who are part of the left. 00:33:48.657 --> 00:33:50.226 They're officially part of the left. 00:33:50.226 --> 00:34:00.275 I mean, you know, there's no one on the right who I think the amount of people on the right who are policing the rightward boundaries and getting traction for big shift, maybe even going back to 2016. 00:34:09.865 --> 00:34:13.760 But what is it about the last couple of years in particular? 00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:18.679 You know, sometimes when you're living in a strange moment like this, it's hard to analyze what's happening. 00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:20.907 But, for example, I was talking to my dad. 00:34:20.907 --> 00:34:22.329 He's almost 70. 00:34:22.329 --> 00:34:25.016 He said I don't remember anything in my lifetime. 00:34:25.016 --> 00:34:28.494 That was this, you know, cataclysmically shifting. 00:34:28.494 --> 00:34:34.275 So, as you're reading that situation, what is it that has caused? 00:34:34.275 --> 00:34:35.626 You know, people on the right, I see this. 00:34:35.626 --> 00:34:41.446 The window seems to be shifting right, but what do you make of the entirety of the situation? 00:34:41.446 --> 00:34:41.988 What's happening? 00:34:41.988 --> 00:34:46.544 Well, simple, easy question Charles. 00:34:47.547 --> 00:34:51.556 If I knew that right, you know, I would be much more popular and important. 00:34:51.556 --> 00:35:03.978 Certainly, everybody agrees that things feel different, and but what that means in the sense of what that holds for the future is extremely difficult to say. 00:35:03.978 --> 00:35:20.878 I mean, all the things we can say is that the near future is going to look radically different than the present, and everyone feels that that's likely to be associated with some kind of fracture or catastrophe, whether that's an economic collapse or a regime crisis. 00:35:20.878 --> 00:35:37.187 But we're kind of lurching from regime crisis to regime crisis, and one of the things I analogize it to in fact I'm writing a book review now about this is the decade and a half leading up to World War I, and everyone's always saying, well, you know, nothing's happening. 00:35:37.187 --> 00:35:42.204 We have these big brouhahas in the media, but then it all just dies down. 00:35:42.204 --> 00:35:58.161 But people have to remember that in the years leading up to World War, I, like very smart men who are very highly educated, were working very hard to avoid war

and but also maximize their country's position and prominence in return. 00:35:58.161 --> 00:36:06.484 There were several major crises where it looked like there was going to be a big war and then nothing happened. 00:36:06.484 --> 00:36:10.012 So on the run up to any big change. 00:36:10.012 --> 00:36:15.935 There's always a lot of false starts, and that easily makes people say, well, nothing's ever going to happen. 00:36:15.935 --> 00:36:26.514 The regime is strong, everything is great, and then, of course, one day it's like Wile E Coyote and the Roadrunner you look down and there's nothing beneath your feet, and down you go. 00:36:26.514 --> 00:36:29.648 So what that means exactly is hard to say. 00:36:29.648 --> 00:36:38.861 Everybody, I think, correctly, identifies the upcoming regime crisis that's likely to occur as a result of the election as a potential breakpoint. 00:36:38.861 --> 00:36:40.086 But it could be something else. 00:36:40.086 --> 00:36:43.457 I mean there's many other possibilities. 00:36:43.457 --> 00:36:52.158 I think the only kind of certain thing is that the regime is very fragile, f fragile meaning not lacking in power, but unable to withstand any kind of crisis. 00:36:52.524 --> 00:36:54.067 And you see the harbingers of this. 00:36:54.067 --> 00:36:59.818 I mean on some things like foreign policy, you see us being humiliated in our attempts to keep the Red Sea open. 00:36:59.818 --> 00:37:09.736 I mean you know Operation Prosperity Guardian, while you know goat herders rain down ballistic missiles on our warships which we are able to shoot down so far to like $5 million a pop. 00:37:09.736 --> 00:37:18.735 And the country of Niger I don't know if you saw this this week pulled out of their security cooperation agreement with us because we sent two. 00:37:18.735 --> 00:37:26.408 They had a coup and, of course, like some hard man is in July, some hard man who got to his position the hard way is now running Niger. 00:37:26.408 --> 00:37:44.973 And so we sent two like fat middle-aged heritants from the State Department this week to lecture him on democracy and, like they literally kicked him out of the country, said it's illegal for the United States to be in Niger and we do not appreciate people coming in being condescending to us. 00:37:44.973 --> 00:37:56.033 And so I mean, in the past that would have been unthinkable, like no country like that would have dared to just kick the United States out someday. 00:37:56.053 --> 00:37:57.280 And Niger is one of the top producers of uranium in the world. 00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.388 I mean, they'll probably keep selling us uranium, but you know who else. 00:37:59.388 --> 00:38:01.714 They're going to sell uranium to the highest bidder. 00:38:01.714 --> 00:38:13.920 You know, this time when we could go to the government of Niger and say you know, more democracy, you will do what we say is just over, because you know General X, whatever his name is just has had it. 00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:16.553 And so you know, get the fat inheritance out of my face. 00:38:16.553 --> 00:38:19.854 And you know the United States can STFU. 00:38:19.854 --> 00:38:31.251 I mean it's just like if you describe this to somebody, even five years ago, they would have said that's crazy talk and you can, so you can see these little cracks, but what do they mean? 00:38:31.251 --> 00:38:32.334 I mean, I guess we'll find out. 00:38:32.895 --> 00:38:40.209 Yeah, it's interesting because you mentioned this too the value of people on the right pushing the window right and even popular discourse. 00:38:40.209 --> 00:38:44.788 You see the rise of conversation, at least on things like Christian nationalism. 00:38:44.788 --> 00:38:52.692 The number of circles where you'll hear you know Franco mentioned is kind of interesting to see that on the uptick. 00:38:52.692 --> 00:38:58.605 But I'm curious, like if you're, if you're one of those people on the right and you're trying to drive the conversation where it needs to go. 00:38:58.605 --> 00:39:05.024 One of the challenges is, you know you've got, you just had a recent review, camp of the Saints. 00:39:05.024 --> 00:39:06.568 That'll be a good example of this. 00:39:06.568 --> 00:39:15.216 I mean, the left, the institutions, they hate this right, like you, are a straight racist if you even thought about reading that book. 00:39:15.216 --> 00:39:18.153 But again the narrative is shifting that way. 00:39:18.153 --> 00:39:22.756 So I'm curious again, strategically, if you're somewhere on the right, you have some sort of platform. 00:39:22.756 --> 00:39:25.013 Maybe it's outside regular institutions. 00:39:25.013 --> 00:39:31.512 What should people be doing to productively push that window wherever possible? 00:39:32.064 --> 00:39:32.707 It's a good question. 00:39:32.707 --> 00:39:44.077 I think that simply being a, so simply being honest, is probably the best answer, and also being calm, that is. 00:39:44.077 --> 00:39:53.362 This goes back to something you said earlier, which is that one of the reasons that people on the right get into fights is because it gets engagement right. 00:39:53.362 --> 00:39:57.464 Nice, calm, reasoned expositions of your position. 00:39:57.464 --> 00:40:00.426 Don't get the clicks, don't get the likes, don't get the clicks, don't get the likes. 00:40:00.426 --> 00:40:03.207 And so I think the best thing you can do is to be honest. 00:40:03.207 --> 00:40:09.991 But I think that starts with being honest with yourself, and the Camp of the Saints is an excellent example, that is, you read the Camp of the Saints. 00:40:10.511 --> 00:40:12.892 The book's a little bit over the top, as the author says. 00:40:12.892 --> 00:40:23.890 It's coarse humor, but it's extremely powerful humor, and it's basically a 50-year-old depiction of the total loss of moral fiber of the West. 00:40:23.890 --> 00:40:36.755 He focuses France because he's a French author, and so on, but it's very timely in the

sense we see that exact same loss of moral fiber, combined with, of course, the political desire to bring in replacement populations here 50 years later. 00:40:36.755 --> 00:40:45.435 So being honest with yourself includes getting a copy of the book and just evaluating it honestly and then talking about it honestly. 00:40:45.435 --> 00:40:46.458 You don't have to. 00:40:46.458 --> 00:40:49.025 It doesn't really matter what the left thinks. 00:40:49.025 --> 00:40:54.526 And bizarrely, I think that I wrote that Camp of the Saints thing and it got a lot of traction. 00:40:54.526 --> 00:41:03.466 I mean I got tens of thousands of views and, like the Talking Points memo guy mentioned it, but he didn't spend his time like saying Haywood's racist Like in the past. 00:41:03.466 --> 00:41:06.369 He would have spent like three paragraphs saying you know terror. 00:41:06.369 --> 00:41:08.117 He didn't even say anything about Camp of the Saints. 00:41:08.117 --> 00:41:10.123 I mean, I think he said something generic about it. 00:41:10.123 --> 00:41:17.215 But you know, I think that the short answer to your question is we just keep doing what we're doing, because nothing succeeds like success. 00:41:17.215 --> 00:41:22.178 And I think the biggest single part of that is you shouldn't overweight. 00:41:22.178 --> 00:41:29.002 I sound like Elmer Fudd overrate Twitter or X, but that's a huge part of it. 00:41:29.102 --> 00:41:32.324 And you see these things especially in an election year. 00:41:32.324 --> 00:41:33.845 That is the ability of the left. 00:41:33.845 --> 00:41:36.386 The left can still gin up narratives. 00:41:36.386 --> 00:41:44.471 You probably saw that thing this week where they tried to gin up this narrative about Trump saying it'd be a bloodbath if he wasn't elected when he was talking about the auto industry. 00:41:44.471 --> 00:41:52.481 But I think I'm pretty sure that the narratives they can continue to gin up have far less reach than they used to. 00:41:52.481 --> 00:42:01.177 I'm not sure whether they reach kind of like the straight normie I think they probably do to some extent, but they tend to be much more confined to the left. 00:42:01.879 --> 00:42:18.022 Speaking of Neoder, you didn't see like even people like Jonah Goldberg were complaining that this is stupid and a waste of my time and undermines my just attempts to really destroy Trump by bringing up this foolish fake narrative, whereas a year ago he would have been totally on board with the narrative. 00:42:18.022 --> 00:42:20.162 Yeah, trump said bloodbath, yeah, trump's evil. 00:42:20.162 --> 00:42:31.721 Now he doesn't feel like he can do that because it's been exposed so widely as a complete sham, and so people like that have to admit it's a sham and look for other weapons to use. 00:42:31.721 --> 00:42:42.339 And not only is this effective, but it also makes the left waste enormous resources, and that was obviously a coordinated campaign that had much less impact than they expected. 00:42:42.339 --> 00:42:44.937 And when they're doing that, they can't be doing other things. 00:42:44.937 --> 00:42:50.676 That doesn't mean that they are substantially harmed, necessarily, but every little bit counts. 00:42:51.297 --> 00:42:52.039 Yeah, it's interesting. 00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:58.762 One of the things that you mentioned in your review of Camp of the Saints was the role that church leaders played. 00:42:58.762 --> 00:43:07.400 I don't know in France if it was a shift or what, but basically you get to the point where the Christian leaders are just straight leftists. 00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:10.307 We've seen a lot of those shifts in our day. 00:43:10.307 --> 00:43:12.559 I've talked about it on the podcast before, but we've. 00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:15.177 You know, early 2000s you had guys like Russ Moore. 00:43:15.177 --> 00:43:20.559 He was dean of school of theology, southern seminary, very conservative, talking about patriarchy, all sorts of stuff like that. 00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:29.676 Fast forward 20 something years and it's just regime left. 00:43:29.676 --> 00:43:31.543 I'm with David French et cetera, not even pretending anymore to be conservative at all. 00:43:31.543 --> 00:43:41.778 So, as you look at our landscape and kind of making some connections with Camp of the Saints, what are some of the problems you see with church leadership and what's happened with those guys? 00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:47.122 Church leadership is a very broad group, obviously, but I think that's universally true. 00:43:47.122 --> 00:43:51.043 That is, there's exceptions, but the exceptions in a sense prove the rule. 00:43:51.043 --> 00:44:03.508 Most of these people have become, as they say, regime Christians, and by analogy to German Christians, which is the group of Protestants who endorsed the National Socialist regime in 1930s Germany. 00:44:03.508 --> 00:44:06.096 And so I think that it's. 00:44:06.096 --> 00:44:11.548 I'm not an expert in this, obviously, but my suspicion is it's a combination of two things. 00:44:11.548 --> 00:44:14.261 One is the simple desire to be socially accepted. 00:44:14.261 --> 00:44:15.023 I mean the same reason. 00:44:15.023 --> 00:44:21.126 People like John Roberts, who's not a I don't think they have pictures of John Roberts on Epstein's Island, which I think. 00:44:21.126 --> 00:44:26.403 He just lives in Chevy Chase and his wife wants to be admitted to the right parties or invited to the right parties. 00:44:26.744 --> 00:45:07.342 But I think a bigger problem is the hyper-feminization of most of the churches, that is, the confusion of Christ's message with the idea of feminized caring and acceptance for everybody, as well as the uh, the accepting that that means that the left's prescriptions for us, or prescriptions for us are, are the one, the kind of things that a good christian does because they're kind and loving, and so so you get this kind of you know me mealy mouthed vision of the loser,

christ, and who's super feminized and he doesn't. 00:45:07.342 --> 00:45:17.457 He doesn't say anything that might be perceived as negative, and this has become so ubiquitous among, I think, christian leaders, with obviously a few exceptions that it's it. 00:45:17.457 --> 00:45:18.960 It's kind of like the old parable or whatever. 00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:20.484 It is not parable that's the wrong word in this context. 00:45:20.484 --> 00:45:21.847 But the story where the fish doesnable or whatever. 00:45:21.847 --> 00:45:28.226 It is not parable, that's the wrong word in this context but the story where the fish doesn't know what water is, because that's what he swims in. 00:45:28.734 --> 00:45:36.802 And you see this, I think, among a lot of Christians, both because the leadership is feminized and because the rank and file is dominated by women. 00:45:36.802 --> 00:45:52.527 You're not allowed to say things that are not regarded as agreeable and, for example, saying all the immigrants should be deported, because your Christian charity is owed primarily to your co-religionists and the people in your nation. 00:45:52.527 --> 00:46:05.721 And if you have infinite wealth and your country is doing great, maybe you should direct some outward, but you should spend your time not importing immigrants to rape your daughters, but rather policing your borders. 00:46:05.721 --> 00:46:17.411 Somehow, everyone viscerally believes that that's something opposed to the message of Christ, which has been reinterpreted to mean the message of caring caring, hyper feminization, or something. 00:46:19.938 --> 00:46:21.767 It really just makes me want to puke. 00:46:21.767 --> 00:46:26.320 Well, yeah, and I mean even I can think back in seminary, so I left in like 2012,. 00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:29.049 But we were even starting to hear messages tied to immigration. 00:46:29.049 --> 00:46:33.401 You know, uh, jesus was a brown skin immigrant and you know all this nonsense. 00:46:33.401 --> 00:46:36.796 And so I was like, oh wow, I can see where you know, I can see where this is going. 00:46:36.796 --> 00:46:38.438 It seems like Charles, too. 00:46:38.438 --> 00:46:48.730 One of the things is with, like Christian nationalism, and that's been on the rise, I think, and even among Christians, it seems like some of it is a response to all of that. 00:46:48.730 --> 00:46:53.385 You talk to the loss of moral fiber in the West. 00:46:53.385 --> 00:46:56.560 I think people are sort of sick of it, and so you're seeing responses. 00:46:56.560 --> 00:47:04.804 My question is it's a big, you know, umbrella term, but as you look at something like Christian nationalism, what do you make of it? 00:47:04.804 --> 00:47:05.446 What's good? 00:47:05.446 --> 00:47:08.402 Are there areas where you would tweak? 00:47:08.402 --> 00:47:10.421 Just general thoughts on it. 00:47:11.114 --> 00:47:22.687 Yeah, I'm certainly favorably disposed to Christian nationalism, as I understand as I like to joke it combines two great tastes that taste great together, like Reese's peanut butter cups Christianity and nationalism. 00:47:22.687 --> 00:47:25.913 Tastes that taste great together, like Reese's peanut butter cups Christianity and nationalism. 00:47:25.913 --> 00:47:37.666 That said, most of the people who espouse and theorize about Christian nationalism are Reformed or Baptist or belong to Protestant traditions that I don't belong to, though I did go to a Reformed elementary school, so I do know something about Reformed theology. 00:47:37.666 --> 00:47:40.739 So I'm not really qualified to judge a lot of these things. 00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:52.962 You know lesser magistrates and some of these other well-developed but freshly applied in the modern day context theological doctrines, because I'm just not really an expert on them. 00:47:52.962 --> 00:48:11.942 I mean, I think at its root my joke is actually what I think, which is that Christianity is great, nationalism is great, and you know normally, for example, back to our earlier point, this is the point at which I would be expected to insert Well, it's true that nationalism can be bad and that historically, I don't think any of that at all. 00:48:11.942 --> 00:48:25.657 I think nationalism is awesome, and so you know, and so nationalism is awesome, and we could easily use 100 times more nationalism in this country than we have now Maybe 200 times 250 or 500, whatever so and Christianity is awesome. 00:48:25.657 --> 00:48:30.287 So it's kind of just definitionally, christianity is awesome. 00:48:30.287 --> 00:48:34.136 We could easily use a thousand times more Christianity in this country, like real Christianity. 00:48:34.457 --> 00:48:37.485 So as far as I'm concerned, anything that advances those two things is good. 00:48:37.485 --> 00:48:40.468 And if people want to combine those two things, obviously you don't want. 00:48:40.468 --> 00:48:47.225 There is a theological problem and I'm Orthodox and the Orthodox suffer from this more than anyone else the combination of church and state. 00:48:47.225 --> 00:48:54.862 They say that they want to work together, but the reality is that they become excessively entangled and that's a real problem. 00:48:54.862 --> 00:48:56.852 But you know, that's not our current problem. 00:48:56.852 --> 00:49:20.222 Our current problem is that the regime hates Christians more broadly, hates people who are religious, but for the most part 99.9% of that is hating Christians, and so I mean they may or may not hate some other sects or groups, but for the most part Christians are the objects of regime hate, and so you know Christians need to push more Christianity. 00:49:20.763 --> 00:49:27.561 Yeah, one of the things that brings to mind is the conversation about the regime and our elite ruling class. 00:49:27.561 --> 00:49:31.017 I think this is like a year and a half ago, something like that. 00:49:31.017 --> 00:49:48.749 Even Elon Musk had posted something like

perhaps it's time for another Sulla, and I had been reading some Plutarch's lives and I was like whoa, I don't know if people realize what he's saying here, but one of the questions I have is what do you actually do about a ruling class in the condition that we have? 00:49:48.749 --> 00:49:59.334 Because it seems like as long as that's in place and it's as corrosive as it is and it's promoting the death of the West and all sorts of things like that, it's problematic. 00:49:59.334 --> 00:50:04.134 So, in your view, what is it going to take to solve that particular problem? 00:50:04.836 --> 00:50:08.866 One of my favorite memes is the you've probably seen the one that has Sulla and Santa Claus. 00:50:08.866 --> 00:50:18.099 It says he has a list, is checking it twice, is coming to town, so, but I mean it also says that's kind of what it takes. 00:50:18.099 --> 00:50:34.582 I mean you don't want to go all Sulla if you can avoid it, because obviously that was part of an extremely bad period in the late Roman Republic and there were a lot of dead people, et cetera, et cetera, though unfortunately a lot of these switchovers do end up in violence and that's not something people should be seeking or looking for or is desirable. 00:50:34.582 --> 00:50:46.678 But, as a historical matter, frequently tends to to come along with regime changes, which is one of the reasons why Patrick Deneen's book was bad, because he tried to pretend that you could have regime change without having some kind of catastrophic fracture. 00:50:46.678 --> 00:50:53.139 So the short answer is and also goes back to what we talked about earlier a regime change is fairly straightforward. 00:50:53.139 --> 00:50:59.887 You counter elite forms for some set of things, some set of reasons, not before change begins. 00:50:59.887 --> 00:51:02.776 That's, I think, a frequent historical misapplication. 00:51:02.776 --> 00:51:09.780 You can have some set of fracture and then a counter elite arises and then takes over, and that's a fairly straightforward process. 00:51:09.780 --> 00:51:11.204 That happens a lot throughout history. 00:51:11.734 --> 00:51:14.003 The issue here is there's two issues. 00:51:14.003 --> 00:51:32.940 One is that we have an ideological regime, and ideological regimes are a lot different because they they think differently, they act differently, they getting rid of de-ideologizing people is very difficult or can be very difficult, and the United States has this, at least apparent massive wealth and so on. 00:51:32.940 --> 00:51:44.562 So we're not talking about changing the regime of the government of Niger, which can happen, like some July 20th, the average guy in his apartment in whatever Niger's capital city is like well, I guess someone else is at the top now. 00:51:44.562 --> 00:51:48.765 I mean, a switch over in the American regime would be a much more dramatic event. 00:51:48.765 --> 00:52:05.528 The short answer is that, especially with the ideology and my kind of

theory on this is that so Gaetano Mosca, who's one of these political theorists, had this theory of the governing elite, which is more or less the top 20% of the population, governing elite, which is more or less the top 20% of the population. 00:52:05.528 --> 00:52:30.181 And then there's a well, the governing elite is, I think, 5% roughly, and the non-governing elite is 15%, but together they form the elite classes, and that governing elite is probably the people who will hold on the most if the regime starts to fracture, say as a result of some economic catastrophe, or if we lose a war against the Chinese or something like that, you can see the circumstances arising where the regime would start to lose its grip on power. 00:52:30.562 --> 00:52:39.537 And so there's a hard core of people, I think, who are ideologically driven leftists within the regime, and those people will never change their ways. 00:52:39.537 --> 00:52:48.870 So those people will have to be physically removed from their power and literally exiled from the country, with all their assets confiscated and just kicked into Canada or something. 00:52:48.870 --> 00:52:55.762 I mean, that's just the way these things work in practice, but the fact is that otherwise, when there's a regime change, most of the people just change their views. 00:52:55.762 --> 00:53:03.457 So, for example, I was reading last week that not that this is really news, I don't think week that not that this is really news. 00:53:03.457 --> 00:53:11.601 I don't think, though, they were treating it as news that Musk's Starlink is working with people in the Air Force to do a new satellite constellation for military purposes Exactly the sort of thing you'd suspect. 00:53:12.183 --> 00:53:17.063 I suspect that whoever's in the Air Force running that doesn't care who's in charge of the United States. 00:53:17.063 --> 00:53:22.424 I mean, if Elon Musk is the new God Emperor of America, they're like fine, whatever you know. 00:53:22.424 --> 00:53:31.254 So there are a lot of set of competent people the few competent people remaining in the regime who just change their views if there was a new set of people in charge. 00:53:31.254 --> 00:53:47.064 So I think that the whatever leads to that regime change, to a return to reality, and the exiling of left ideology from our country is going to be, in a sense, less catastrophic than people might think, because people just change their opinions, and this happened, for example, under Napoleon. 00:53:47.064 --> 00:53:56.526 You had these things where people were, they were monarchists, then they were revolutionaries, then they were members of the Directory and then they were big supporters of Napoleon Bonaparte. 00:53:56.526 --> 00:54:01.577 Most people would just change their views based upon what benefits them, and that's fine, because that's just the way the world works. 00:54:01.577 --> 00:54:04.014 Change their views based upon what benefits them, and that's fine, because 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privatefamilybankingcom Again, that's chuck at privatefamilybankingcom To set up an appointment and to receive a free copy of Chuck's new book Protect your Money Now how to Build Multigenerational Wealth Outside of Wall Street and Avoid the Coming Banking Meltdown. 00:56:11.087 --> 00:56:13.342 Go to the link in the show notes for more information. 00:56:13.342 --> 00:56:20.621 Yeah, no, that's helpful. 00:56:20.621 --> 00:56:23.736 We were talking earlier about World War One. 00:56:23.736 --> 00:56:41.571 At that time period You've written a lot on Franco, and so that's become sort of like a buzzword attached to your name to espoused uh, what some of the lessons there are. 00:56:41.571 --> 00:56:44.934 But a tumultuous time, uh, in european history. 00:56:44.934 --> 00:56:48.902 And on the scene comes franco um. 00:56:48.902 --> 00:56:49.904 So I'm curious what? 00:56:49.904 --> 00:56:51.888 What sparked your interest in him? 00:56:51.888 --> 00:56:53.420 Was it just biography or

reading? 00:56:53.420 --> 00:56:56.453 And then how did that dovetail into wanting to write about him? 00:56:56.593 --> 00:57:03.141 yeah, it's a good example of the the thing we were talking about, which is that I wrote a long piece on franco, maybe in 2019. 00:57:03.141 --> 00:57:10.039 I think it was, maybe it was 2018. 00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:14.053 And back then that was pretty edgy, like I was very positive about Franco and so on, but of course, I had no readers back then, so no one noticed. 00:57:14.053 --> 00:57:16.921 But, yeah, the piece has really had legs and gets a lot of. 00:57:16.921 --> 00:57:53.840 This is basically just an exposition of, as well as commentary on, franco, and I think that the lessons of Franco obviously, every country in time is different, but the lessons of Franco are that well, there's many lessons from Franco, but in the run-up to the Spanish Civil War, you saw the exact same behavior of the left that you always see, which is the demand for ever more power, coupled with the demand for ever more power, coupled with the demand for ever more elimination of the right, and physical elimination if necessary, and in that case, for example, they were killing thousands of people. 00:57:53.840 --> 00:58:03.182 At the same time, they were trying to delegitimize the electoral process, and so it's weird, because if you look at the run up to the Spanish Civil War, you see the exact same things you see now. 00:58:03.182 --> 00:58:08.554 You see them saying well, there's this right wing party that's won a lot of seats, but they're illegitimate. 00:58:08.554 --> 00:58:16.703 Not because they're procedurally illegitimate because they stuffed the ballot boxes, but they're just inherently illegitimate because their arrow of history only points left in. 00:58:16.703 --> 00:58:24.260 Any rollback entitles us to kill people, because the arrow of history is not allowed to move right, and so therefore, these people must die. 00:58:24.260 --> 00:58:30.747 And so that's why Franco, famously, was famously silent, famously basically self-interested. 00:58:30.747 --> 00:58:33.694 He was not an ideologue at all, he certainly wasn't a fascist or whatever. 00:58:33.694 --> 00:58:40.548 He was just this kind of authoritarian guy who disliked order and disorder. 00:58:40.548 --> 00:59:09.357 And he only got persuaded to get into this rebellion against the supposedly legitimate government, which had gotten to be elected through actual fraud, more or less, when the left literally assassinated the, dragged out of his house and killed roughly the equivalent of the speaker of the house, and so he's like well, this is going no place. 00:59:09.357 --> 00:59:10.060 Good, so something has to be done. 00:59:10.060 --> 00:59:15.618 And that's eventually what you see in all left grabs for power, that is, to the extent that the right is not perceived as defeated. 00:59:15.618 --> 00:59:18.365 Ever more violence has to be used to put it down. 00:59:18.405 -->

00:59:36.943 I mean, I like to point out that we now have in America many more political prisoners than the late stage communism did, with the exception of maybe Romania, like East Germany, had far fewer political prisoners than we do now at the end, in the 1980s, and they were going very rapidly down to zero. 00:59:36.943 --> 00:59:40.957 The amount of propaganda, I mean I traveled and I'm half Hungarian, so I traveled in Hungary in the late in the mid 80s. 00:59:40.957 --> 00:59:50.623 I mean I traveled in I'm half Hungarian, so I traveled in Hungary in the mid 80s the amount of propaganda we're subjected to is 100 times what people were subjected to under late. 00:59:50.623 --> 01:00:07.421 Communism is getting traction and you see that with Trump, you see that with some of the other things we've been talking about, which necessarily means that they're going to up the ante. 01:00:07.421 --> 01:00:11.480 That's just the way it goes, I mean historically, and Franco is instructive for those purposes. 01:00:11.941 --> 01:00:12.964 Yeah, I'm curious too. 01:00:12.964 --> 01:00:20.639 You mentioned Hungary and maybe I don't know, in some ways a modern example of things moving back to the right with Viktor Orban. 01:00:20.639 --> 01:00:25.977 I moving back to the right, uh, with victor orban. 01:00:25.977 --> 01:00:26.137 Um, what? 01:00:26.137 --> 01:00:26.378 I'm curious. 01:00:26.378 --> 01:00:26.719 What about that? 01:00:26.719 --> 01:00:27.501 What made it successful? 01:00:27.501 --> 01:00:32.335 You know, the assumption, I think, in america is like nothing like that could ever happen here. 01:00:32.335 --> 01:00:35.522 Um, I guess could it and and and what? 01:00:35.522 --> 01:00:40.618 I guess what lessons could be pulled from orban's rise there? 01:00:40.978 --> 01:00:41.820 I'm hardly an expert. 01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:50.137 I though I have been there relatively recently and so on, so I do know, and I more or less speak Hungarian, so I am probably slightly better informed than the average person. 01:00:50.137 --> 01:01:02.875 Orban, I was in Hungary in 1991 for almost a year, and Orban's my age basically, though he weighs more than I do and he was like a young politician then. 01:01:02.875 --> 01:01:05.876 Fidesz, which is the ruling party now, was originally the youth party. 01:01:05.876 --> 01:01:11.079 I think he had to be under 30 to belong, and so he was around. 01:01:11.079 --> 01:01:20.743 I remember him being around immediately after the fall of communism and he was prime minister, and then he lost an election. 01:01:20.743 --> 01:01:55.536 The Fidesz party lost power and the communists actually came back with the renamed communists, and so the Fidesz party, which is comprised of a large number by Hungarian standards small country, it's 10 million people spent years working extremely hard with an extremely detailed plan to come back to power, like building grassroots groups, figuring out their political program, and that's much more difficult in the American context. 01:01:55.536 --> 01:02:03.841 For a variety of reasons, it was successful for them because they did all those things and they offered what the people of Hungary wanted, which is they wanted to keep the immigrants out. 01:02:03.841 --> 01:02:08.709 They wanted to maintain some relation with the EU. 01:02:08.709 --> 01:02:14.247 For example, german automakers are a huge employer in Hungary and you can't just kick them out. 01:02:14.854 --> 01:02:18.002 And there's also Hungary-specific things. 01:02:18.002 --> 01:02:27.228 For example, there's a big gypsy problem, and so there's certain elements of Hungarian politics that are opaque to outsiders because they're designed to beat down the gypsies. 01:02:27.228 --> 01:02:37.369 But you know, for example, you frequently hear incorrectly that I think a Hungarian woman who has three or more children is exempt from income tax. 01:02:37.369 --> 01:02:42.983 That's partially and is designed to raise birth births. 01:02:42.983 --> 01:02:47.342 But it's also designed to screw the gypsies because the gypsies don't have jobs, so they don't pay income tax. 01:02:47.723 --> 01:02:50.799 I mean, everything you hear stereotypically about gypsies is 100 true. 01:02:50.799 --> 01:02:52.323 I know from personal experience. 01:02:52.323 --> 01:02:59.878 But you know, in terms of like, their cultural approach to the, the world around them, that said, gypsies are actually hungarian, I've been there for hundreds of years and so on. 01:02:59.878 --> 01:03:03.404 It's an internal Hungarian question, anyway. 01:03:03.404 --> 01:03:05.107 So that's a long way of saying that. 01:03:05.107 --> 01:03:27.107 In my opinion, it'd be much harder in America, both because it's much bigger, the regime is much more entrenched I mean, the communists there had a couple of years of power and they're much more of a free-for-all and the biggest single problem is that the vast majority of people on the right who have political power or are close to political power are clowns. 01:03:27.107 --> 01:03:29.782 I mean just look around you. 01:03:29.874 --> 01:03:38.549 I mean, yeah, there's a few exceptions, but they are not the kind of people who will spend years in the wilderness building up something in order to enhance the greatness of the nation. 01:03:38.549 --> 01:03:43.126 They're like Rudy Giuliani, who's always grifting. 01:03:43.126 --> 01:03:49.354 I mean, it's like the and this is one of the problems with Trump, of course he surrounds he's such a bad judge of character. 01:03:49.354 --> 01:03:55.336 He surrounds himself with these just awful human beings, and I've been in in the conservative movement for 30 years. 01:03:55.336 --> 01:03:57.882 They've always been mostly grifters. 01:03:57.882 --> 01:03:59.546 It's just unbelievable. 01:03:59.546 --> 01:04:07.614 It's probably a slightly lower percentage now because there are people with prominence with platforms because of technology and the

internet that are not grifters. 01:04:07.614 --> 01:04:22.566 But the people who actually are in DC, I mean, there's a tiny handful of people in elective office and a tiny like JD Vance not a grifter, everyone he hires, as far as I can tell, not a grifter, but that's the exception rather than the rule. 01:04:24.520 --> 01:04:25.645 Maybe it'll get better. 01:04:25.645 --> 01:04:36.754 But Lindsey Graham, I mean, like what planet do we think that Lindsey Graham is someone who is fit to lick the boots of Victor Orban? 01:04:36.754 --> 01:04:41.209 I mean, he might enjoy it as kind of a kink thing, but that's not there. 01:04:41.209 --> 01:04:48.551 It's just the Americans on the right can't do it with the people we have now. 01:04:48.551 --> 01:04:54.715 We need a new set of people, and maybe JD Vance is the harbinger of that, or some other people We'll see To do that. 01:04:54.715 --> 01:04:55.637 It's not directly applicable to America. 01:04:55.637 --> 01:04:56.119 Do that, it's just not. 01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:58.184 It's not directly applicable to America, I guess. 01:04:58.425 --> 01:04:59.407 Yeah, no, that's helpful. 01:04:59.407 --> 01:05:22.628 And then I guess the tied to that, the question you've got with Camp of the Saints right with you know whether it's gypsies, whether it's immigrants, whether it's stuff like this, do you see anybody who could pose a legitimate resistance to the flood of immigration coming into the country, obviously structured by the left to destroy Western civilization, right? 01:05:22.628 --> 01:05:29.539 Do you see any really anybody pushing back hard enough against this or just in a position to do something about it? 01:05:29.720 --> 01:05:33.230 Well, there are any number of people who are in a position to do something about it. 01:05:33.230 --> 01:05:38.671 I mean, this is just a classic example of what Napoleon said when they asked him how he became emperor of France. 01:05:38.671 --> 01:05:42.930 Right, I saw the crown of France lying in the street and I picked it up with my sword. 01:05:42.930 --> 01:05:48.325 So just take an example, abbott, you know, if you're Abbott, I'm in the position. 01:05:48.325 --> 01:05:55.066 I think a couple of weeks ago, when Abbott had that brouhaha with the federal government, was a major defeat for the federal government. 01:05:55.066 --> 01:06:05.258 It was an actual happening, and the reason it was a major defeat was because the federal government was humiliated and forced to back down, which they would never have done even a couple of years ago. 01:06:05.258 --> 01:06:06.745 Just on the principle of the thing. 01:06:06.745 --> 01:06:09.728 But that doesn't mean that Abbott is going to extend that. 01:06:10.419 --> 01:06:22.974 What Abbott needs to do is he needs to militarize the entire border and then, when they try to federalize the National border with, and then when they try to federalize the National Guard refused, I mean that is the correct play that he could easily do. 01:06:22.974 --> 01:06:30.443 I mean and at that point the I mean that's a regime crisis that the federal government almost certainly been unable to do anything about. 01:06:30.443 --> 01:06:39.191 It might well have catastrophic consequences for our kind of existing political setup, whether good or bad. 01:06:39.191 --> 01:06:44.749 It's hard you can never tell in advance whether they're good or bad but it's very easy for these things to be done. 01:06:44.749 --> 01:06:46.586 It's just a question of having the will. 01:06:47.260 --> 01:07:02.864 I mean, the federal government could then purport to arrest Abbott or something, and that could have any number of unforeseen and foreseeable consequences, but it's just a question of who's going to do that, and so you have Elon Musk running around basically pushing this. 01:07:02.864 --> 01:07:12.581 I mean, he doesn't say so in so many words, but you've got to know that a guy like that, who they just stole $55 billion from, and his response was I'm going to reincorporate my business in a new state. 01:07:12.581 --> 01:07:13.883 That wasn't what he was thinking. 01:07:13.883 --> 01:07:19.151 What he was really thinking was how can I help Greg Abbott destroy these people? 01:07:19.151 --> 01:07:21.034 I mean not that he shared that with me. 01:07:21.114 --> 01:07:27.030 I'm surmising what he said, and so we're just waiting for someone to do that. 01:07:27.030 --> 01:07:47.543 And it's a very bad position for the regime right now because it's an election year and normally they can because of people's short memory spans and their control of the propaganda narrative and so on they could do all these things to make the immigrants continue to be admitted and then people would forget about it. 01:07:47.543 --> 01:07:54.910 Right now it's kind of front burner and Musk is keeping it front burner and it's only eight months to the election and this is looking real bad for them. 01:07:54.910 --> 01:07:56.102 So we'll see. 01:07:56.102 --> 01:07:57.085 But it's easy. 01:07:57.085 --> 01:07:58.550 It's just a question of who has the will. 01:07:58.779 --> 01:08:00.182 It's always a question of who has the will. 01:08:00.182 --> 01:08:16.252 But the beauty of it here is that many times when I when you say someone has to have the will, that involves something very unpleasant, Like when Franco, like rebelled against the federal government of Spain, he came with soldiers and they started shooting immediately. 01:08:16.252 --> 01:08:25.849 Here you could imagine a situation where you don't want shooting, the federal government just agrees to let Texas defend the border and we go back to having. 01:08:25.849 --> 01:08:35.792 This is a more common kind of historical direction where the center of an empire gradually loses power over the periphery. 01:08:35.792 --> 01:08:38.488 There'll be a lot preferable to people engaging in violence. 01:08:39.079 --> 01:08:40.144 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 01:08:40.144

--> 01:08:43.789 None of us can obviously know the future. 01:08:43.789 --> 01:08:52.727 But as you look at this year politics, obviously election year, as you mentioned what do you kind of see coming down the pipeline? 01:08:52.727 --> 01:08:55.548 Any anticipation of you know? 01:08:55.548 --> 01:08:58.086 We've we've heard all sorts of crazy theories, but like what? 01:08:58.086 --> 01:08:59.410 What do you expect to happen? 01:08:59.820 --> 01:09:05.905 So my I used to not be a prediction guy, but somehow I've been backed into prediction guy. 01:09:05.905 --> 01:09:17.673 So my predictions are that Trump will easily win the election, regardless of the massive fraud, and that the left will immediately engage in violence from top to bottom. 01:09:17.673 --> 01:09:28.770 From top, meaning, like the cabal of military officers who purports to be in charge of the military will try to, will engage in some kind of coup activity. 01:09:28.770 --> 01:09:30.467 The entire deep state will try to undermine him. 01:09:30.467 --> 01:09:33.716 They'll unloose their foot soldiers for violence upon American cities. 01:09:33.716 --> 01:09:34.460 Yada, yada, yada. 01:09:34.460 --> 01:09:37.970 Just basically like 2020, you know 10 or 20 times. 01:09:37.970 --> 01:09:41.069 So that's kind of like a low hanging prediction. 01:09:41.069 --> 01:09:51.972 I mean, the Trump winning prediction is maybe a bit more aggressive, but certainly, if Trump wins, it's low hanging fruit to predict that latter set of events. 01:09:51.972 --> 01:09:54.347 So that's my one prediction. 01:09:54.347 --> 01:09:56.144 I would assume that would unleash some set of events. 01:09:56.144 --> 01:09:56.648 So that's my one prediction. 01:09:56.648 --> 01:09:57.335 I would assume that would unleash some set of chaos. 01:09:57.335 --> 01:10:09.225 And my kind of stretch prediction is that I expect were there to be some kind of regime crisis and chaos, which will hopefully be happening far away from me, here in Indiana, where I lead my peaceful life. 01:10:09.225 --> 01:10:12.582 I don't have to live anywhere near Washington DC Were that to happen. 01:10:13.524 --> 01:10:16.590 My and I get a lot of grief for this on the right. 01:10:16.590 --> 01:10:30.113 My expectation is that Trump may or may not end up taking office or being president, but that sooner or later, elon Musk is going to show up and attempt to assert himself as a regime hegemon. 01:10:30.113 --> 01:10:42.256 Because my reasoning on that though I can go into more detail, but I probably don't have time is simply that Elon Musk is one of these guys who has a very defined goal he wants to get to Mars. 01:10:42.256 --> 01:10:44.528 Leave me aside whether that's a sensible goal or not. 01:10:44.528 --> 01:10:45.844 He has maybe 20 years. 01:10:45.844 --> 01:10:46.988 They're stopping him. 01:10:46.988 --> 01:10:57.993 His only play is to take advantage of a fractured regime in order to ensure that he can do what he wants to do, and the only way to do that for sure every entrepreneur knows is to be the guy in charge. 01:10:58.854 --> 01:10:59.175 That's it. 01:10:59.175 --> 01:11:00.615 That's the way it is. 01:11:00.615 --> 01:11:05.863 He certainly has a lot of resources. 01:11:05.863 --> 01:11:06.585 I mean, we'll give him that. 01:11:06.585 --> 01:11:08.770 Of anybody who could probably accomplish something like that, he might be the guy. 01:11:08.770 --> 01:11:09.833 I want to ask you. 01:11:09.833 --> 01:11:14.347 We'll link to the Camp of the Saints in the show notes for this. 01:11:14.347 --> 01:11:16.893 Is there actually a good way to get a copy of that book? 01:11:17.534 --> 01:11:25.168 No, as I say in my review, I bought it for $12 in 2018, and now they cost several hundred dollars because it's a banned book. 01:11:25.168 --> 01:11:33.753 But the answer is that there are some copies online, but they're not well formatted, for example. 01:11:33.753 --> 01:11:35.846 I'm sure the libraries have all banned them. 01:11:35.846 --> 01:11:36.904 I'm sure you can't get it. 01:11:36.904 --> 01:11:43.185 My guess is that sooner or later, interest increases, someone will torrent the book. 01:11:43.185 --> 01:11:45.448 I don't really understand this. 01:11:45.448 --> 01:11:54.472 The young ones apparently have access to various libraries of pirated books or what have you. 01:11:54.472 --> 01:11:57.168 My guess is they'll get pirated at some point and circulated around. 01:11:57.168 --> 01:11:59.547 I wouldn't know how to do that, but I bet it happens. 01:11:59.547 --> 01:12:00.322 Okay. 01:12:00.985 --> 01:12:01.164 Awesome. 01:12:01.164 --> 01:12:02.985 Well, Charles, I really appreciate you coming on. 01:12:02.985 --> 01:12:04.489 The podcast been very helpful. 01:12:04.489 --> 01:12:07.628 We encourage our listeners check out your podcast. 01:12:07.628 --> 01:12:11.548 They can also check out your writings at the worthy housecom. 01:12:11.548 --> 01:12:13.565 Again, sir, Thank you so much for joining me. 01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:14.903 It was my pleasure. 01:12:14.903 --> 01:12:15.820 Thank you, dot com. 01:12:15.860 --> 01:12:21.735 Again, sir, thank you so much for joining me. 01:12:21.735 --> 01:12:22.297 It was my pleasure. 01:12:22.297 --> 01:12:24.680 Thank you Well. 01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:26.106 Thanks again for listening to this episode of the Hardman podcast. 01:12:26.106 --> 01:12:28.417 For those who are not yet supporting on Patreon, we do encourage you to follow the link in the show notes. 01:12:28.417 --> 01:12:35.970 Support this show, get more content and support more content that you want to see out in the marketplace. 01:12:35.970 --> 01:12:40.496 You can get access to early episodes by signing up today. 01:12:40.496 --> 01:12:49.389 We also want to encourage you to check out the 2024 New Christendom Press Conference, june 6th through 8th in Ogden, utah. 01:12:49.389 --> 01:12:52.390 You can find more by clicking on the link in the show notes. 01:12:52.390 --> 01:12:53.564 Get special pricing today. 01:12:53.564 --> 01:12:54.649 Join us in Ogden. 01:12:54.649 --> 01:13:00.310 We are going to be talking about rebuilding Christian boroughs in the style of King Alfred. 01:13:00.310 --> 01:13:05.391 Until next time, stay frosty, fight the good fight, act like men.