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Matthew 18, starting in verse 18.
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Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
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Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
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For where two or three gather in my name, there I am with them.
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Hello, my name is Connor, and I'm Jason.
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And you were listening to the Amaze and Throplex Podcast.
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So as we consider this passage today, I I wonder about uh your feeling, dear listener, uh when you when you hear this, uh because I'm going to own right from the start, I don't know what to make of verse 18 or 19.
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And then uh 20 is the verse that um I think I probably hear this verse quoted once every six to twelve days uh in one setting or another.
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And I find that fascinating.
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Um, that that's the certainty uh and and this, but yeah, I I think I am not in the same context you are in terms of hearing uh verse 20 repeated a lot, although I do hear it and see it quite often referenced, uh, and many times it is referenced in one way, and then people are really quick to come in and add the context of of this happening uh in the course of like of uh church discipline or you know, however.
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And so I think there's a lot of actual baggage that comes with this verse um and with this passage as a whole.
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Um, and so I think obviously like we never want to strictly take any verse out of the Bible and rip it out of the context.
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I also think um it's important to not uh I think it's important to put on our thinking caps, if you will.
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Um, and sometimes in the context of things, Jesus will also make like a transition to a slightly new topic or he's building on top of something.
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Um and so uh this could be irrelevant context or information for anybody um listening to this right now.
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I just know in my own life, I think this is similar to you know Philippians 4.13, where you know there's lots of like athletes that would use, you know, use that verse to talk about succeeding in sports, and then there became this kind of cottage in industry and people rebutting that and saying that's not what it's about, it's this, this, and this, and this.
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And I think there's almost a similar feel uh to this verse, at least that I've experienced.
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Yeah, I you had mentioned uh that dynamic of church discipline, and I do want to just pull this back.
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If you if you look at the whole of Matthew 18, you have this conversation started with who's the greatest, and he brings out a child, and it's like don't make that child stumble, and it's better to cut, you know, is this the one guide gouge your eyes out, you know, than to be involved in in doing things that would hurt others.
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And then he has the parable of the wandering sheep, and then he has dealing with with this uh discipline, and then he has this.
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And so, and and in some ways there's a shift after this, the a new a new input, but clearly the disciples are here, and by that I mean the twelve, but there may be there may be more in this scenario, but they've been paying close attention, and and I think that's fascinating within itself.
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Like, imagining the apostles just sitting listening to this and there not being anything written, like you can't go back and read it again, there's no recording of it, it's just you get this one time.
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Now he might have shared this 50 times, who's to say, but this is the one time not this concept comes up that we're about that we're looking at, but in general, this specific combination of these different aspects that often show up in other passages, this is the only time this is going to come up.
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So as they're listening, I I just wonder, are they just like, don't I don't know what what what are we talking about?
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Like, because I listen to that sometimes to people, and especially if I really respect them, you know, and I'm not diminishing or any any way criticizing Jesus' talk, but it does seem kind of random uh to get here, and that's interesting to me.
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So what amazes you about these verses?
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It's always really fascinating when like Jesus pauses and and how he gives pauses to give emphasis on something, and then how he gives emphasis.
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Like you would think Messiah, soon to be reigning king of the universe, like every single word he says is important.
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You know, it'd almost go without saying, you know, hey, like what I'm what I'm telling you right now is really important.
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But for him to go, like, hey no guys, truly I tell you, you know, and then again later, it's like again, you know, truly I tell you.
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It's almost this like this re-emphasizing of like um there's something deeper, something bigger, something more.
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It's not that it's more important than what came before, but it's almost like he is attempting to get across to his disciples, like, hey, I know it's really easy to wander, it's really easy to be overwhelmed, like you were talking about, you've received all this, I'm I'm drawing you in, I'm telling you, like you got laser focus on this.
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And for me, the fact that the first thing for him in this passage that we're covering today, you know, truly I tell you, what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven.
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There's this feel that Jesus is wanting to get across of like, hey, this, you know, you might feel like any little sin or any, you know, given interaction, there's such an easy temptation to devalue it, to um treat a person, treat an interaction, treat what we're doing here um as less important, less uh majestic or less uh serious than what it actually is.
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Uh and so this direct connection in my mind for what Jesus is saying of like, hey, what you do here matters, and what you do here and how you treat people and how you go about my business is not just here and now happening in 80, 31 or whatever, but it is it has eternal consequences.
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Um it both for me is so dignifying.
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And the fact that Jesus wants to be like, no, no, no, I need you to pay attention to this, and I need you to really get this idea.
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Um, for me, that's just uh that's amazing.
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I I appreciate that, and I like it.
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I I think the part that has always has always made me stumble and probably still will make me stumble, is the challenge of is he going, especially in light of that first phrase in this chapter that or that first interaction of the chapter, where it's like the this seems like you're saying you're the greatest.
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Who is he saying this for?
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Who's the you?
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Is this just the 12?
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Is it everybody?
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Um, but the way you're talking about that idea of now, this is what I heard.
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This may not have been even been what your main emphasis was, now that I think about it, but it is that idea of when you notice, when you're aligned with God and you notice something that is off, um, whether it needs to be loosed, meaning more freedom, or whether it needs to be bound, meaning more structure.
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Um, and the way I just said that sounds a lot more positive than you know what did what instead of what needs to be punished and what needs to be, you know, just released from slavery kind of feel.
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Um but when you have that, know that that's already been done in heaven.
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Uh now if you look at the footnote, it says uh will be bound in heaven or and will be loosed in heaven, or to have have been done in heaven or have been done.
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And so that's interesting to me.
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Um yeah, about that.
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But I do think I I think that's really astute to notice here he's really focusing your attention that is unusual to me.
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Not not just to do it once, but in one verse to do it and then a second verse to do it.
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And I think he is really tying it to whatever he said before.
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Like, like of all it it has that feel almost of everything I've said, here's what I want you most to get.
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Yeah.
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Well, and you think about like this morning, um, I was doing a little bit of homeschool with my daughter before I came here, and uh, there's several different things we do.
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And sometimes when you talk to your kids, you can tell, like, okay, they're actually engaged, they're thinking about it.
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And then other times you see the glazed over look and you're like, there's you know, they're somewhere else right now.
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Um, and I get it, and like I I don't get I don't get too frustrated with her.
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Um, but when it comes to school, there are moments where you're like, you gotta you gotta call them back and you gotta be like, hey, no, no, like we can't just glaze over this.
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Now, sometimes like there's seasons where it's like there's some things with homeschooling our daughter that's like, man, she misses this five minutes because she's in her own little world.
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You know, we'll come back to it.
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You know, maybe it's a critical piece that's really important.
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Like the things that Jesus said before was really important.
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Um, but hey, right now, and I may maybe now I'm speaking directly to the disciple that Jesus is speaking to.
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Maybe that is more for them than for us, or some combination of uh the timing when we read this versus when they are hearing it.
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But that idea of like, you know, is there like a sense of like confusion in the disciples as they're hearing this?
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Is there a um like are they thinking about because right before this we talked about when you're confronting somebody in their sin, are they now thinking about, oh okay, well, Billy did that?
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Or, you know, oh Peter, I need to talk to Peter about like what's going through their mind as they're thinking about the ramifications of what Jesus is saying, and he's like snapping them back to being like, okay, hey, truly I tell you.
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Um, and that is like that opens up a whole other uh realm in terms of like interpretation, and then also just thinking about like if you can take that piece at that idea.
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And I'm not saying that's exactly what's happening here.
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I do think it's a plausible of scripture.
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Like, if Jesus is working with his disciples in that way, I think there are times where Jesus is working with me as a disciple in a similar way.
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Um, and so uh that for me is just like is incredibly beautiful to think about when I think about how I interact with my daughter, and then Jesus is doing the same exact thing to me, but much, much better.
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So, Jason, what amazes you?
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I think what amazes me is a lot of times when I hear the greatest, and this comes up multiple times, I believe we've discussed at least once before, um, but that who's the greatest, oftentimes I think the human mind goes, well, nobody is, like, and and that equals nobody has any special authority, power, this kind of thing.
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And yet you see the apostles in the book of Acts exercising uh authority in I would I would assess a healthy way.
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And I think this kind of if if it truly is bookends, like I read this, like there's a line of thought that starts in the early parts and it's goes to right here, all red letters.
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Um, I think that I think it's amazing that he's like, Man, when you're aligned with me, uh when we are of the same mind, and when you join, and I think it's it's amazing that he includes community, even if it's just one other person, but it really does protect me from I got a great idea, and uh God gave it to me, and so I'm just gonna go, you know, or I've heard people say, you know, I got a word from God, and this word will now define everything until he gives me another word.
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And I'm like, okay, according to this, it is right to think, man, God wants to work through me, but there's something about doing a community that is he places at a premium, you know, and then he extends it to wherever any anytime there's a pair of you of this same mind, um, I'm with you.
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You need to know.
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And I I I don't think he's saying he's not with the individual.
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I'm simply saying he's emphasizing connectedness.
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Like there's something about me doing this podcast alone can have a certain power, but there's something about us doing it together if we're aligned with God, that there's something else that's produced, you know, and I'm not just saying better words, although that's true, but I think there's something of spiritual impact that's greater.
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Yeah, no, I I I totally see the beauty in that.
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And I think there's like almost an invitation here by Jesus saying that, of like, of almost an invitation into the dance of like how he exists as a part of the Trinity.
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Um and like his his like the very reality of Jesus, of God being a relational being that from the very beginning he has been a person existing inside a relational dance between you know the Father, Son, and the Spirit.
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I think it is just so incredibly, incredibly moving when you think about the life of Jesus.
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And like I've seen people portray the life of Jesus in such a solitary manner.
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Because there are times when you read Jesus with the disciples where it's like, man, I don't even know if he likes these guys.
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Like I'm sure he loves him, but like they don't get him.
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Like, you know, he d it's not till later he really says, Hey, you know, now we're friends, now we're brothers.
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Right.
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Um, like there's just this almost this lone man.
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He starts off his ministry by going off into the wilderness all alone and doing battle with God.
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Um, and like there is like there could so easily be this this pull to be like, man, I want to be like Jesus.
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And you it'd be so easy if you missed out on like what his entire existence has been to miss out on this piece.
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Um, and that Jesus keeps putting that in front of them um a as like a as a reminder.
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I yeah, and I think just like incredibly healthy, like in terms of how we think about how uh what is healthiest and best the best way for humans to to live and operate in the world.
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Um and as Jesus begins to set up you know his body and and partha's teaching and wisdom uh for Jesus to give him the comfort of of saying, Hey, here's the expectation, this is all to be done in community, but also when it's done in community, there is a different way in which I am present.
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Um and like that is like I think that and that is I think a genuine gift that Jesus is giving the disciples and and us as disciples.
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Yeah, I can totally see that.
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And it's a good reminder that he could have easily presented this uh this as one man, Jesus talking to one man, whoever you are, and so much is communal, and I assume it because of race with it, but it didn't have to be that way.
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So what perplexes you about this?
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I think the the clear thing, and I could come up with an answer that would probably work.
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Um But I I mean I'll just own 19 again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it'll be done for them by my father in heaven.
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I'm perplexed by that, because I don't I don't see if a plain reading of this.
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Um I just don't see I
don't see I don't know if there's the evidence for it, but I certainly don't see the the sort of 100% at bat rate that uh that Jesus seems to be saying here.
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And now I I I have thoughts about about w how I might be misinterpreting it by just taking the plain English reading of of the translation, but I think it would be dishonest to not to not just acknowledge like, man, do we like I believe it because Jesus said it, but like that feels like a much bigger leap of faith than some things than than believing some of the things that Jesus says.
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Yeah, th that that is spot on my uh just perplexion is that uh how far do we take this?
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I mean, it it just jumps out at me.
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I've got a I've got a brother in Christ that beat cancer, and we prayed about it, you know, and so now he has it back, and there's a chance he could beat it again, and there's a chance he won't.
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And and that to me is like, okay, does that mean, and it could mean, I need to be much more discerning about what is in alignment with Christ?
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Because here's the truth.
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If if it was left to our devices, there are people that would be a million years old, right?
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Well, not a million, but a thousand years old right now, because people would just keep praying that they would live and live and live and live and live.
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And I'm not suggesting God couldn't work with it, he can do whatever he wants, but it is that part.
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Like, when is it the right time to die?
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Most of the time, people are like, oh, because they were hurting so much.
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Well, then why don't two or more of us pray about him hurting and he won't be hurting?
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You see what I mean?
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And that it all it almost can read like you're requiring heaven now.
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I said it or we said it, and now you gotta do it.
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And you know that God's not submissive to us.
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So it really assumes a lot of um a lot of alignment with God, like the people he's talking to, and I'm not just saying the apostles, I'm just saying when the apostles talk to him, how aligned are they with him, you know, and what are they asking?
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You know, it's interesting in first John, it talks about if you ask of anything in my name, um, but there's another phrase there, like it when in when it's what I want for you, then you'll get anything, you know.
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And it's like, well, that makes sense because okay, so we both pray that I'll get a million dollars.
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Um, you know, if I get a million dollars, then we'll be like, oh, like
how how quickly do we move to look what we did.
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Sure.
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We prayed, and then we write a book about how we prayed and got this million dollars, and now it's not about God at all.
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So you can see how this could so quickly become not really about God, but about you getting the power now.
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And then I'm like, there's then this is where the perplexion comes in.
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I'm like, Jesus, this is really dangerous first.
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Like, what are you trying to do here?
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And and that's the part I'm like, I don't know if I really have the answers to that.
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Yeah, or in the fact that he's like, you know, it's not just like loss, it's like he wants he wants to draw it out.
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This is a very important thing for him.
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Exactly.
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It would almost be easier to dismiss if it was just in the series of teaching and he's like, oh, also what you bind on heaven and what you you know, uh if any of you guys ask for anything, or if you ask for things that I really like, or if you ask for things that are you know, if he he directly said that, it'd be like, okay, man, that's man, that that brings some perplexions here.
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But the fact that he's like, hey, Jason Connor, you know, you know, Peter, John, I I need you, I need you to hear me on this, you know.
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I need you to hear me on this.
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If two of you on earth agree about anything that you ask for, it'll be done for them by the Father in heaven.
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And it's like that is like that's not Jesus uh giving any qual like I mean there are qualifiers, and I think we can read them into the text.
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Um, but it it's a pretty astounding promise and a in a pretty no-holds barred statement.
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Um, and that in of itself can be perplexing, especially for me, as somebody who wants to always probably wants to nuance things to death too often.
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Um, you know, I maybe one of the things I I'm taking from this is like I need to give more grace for people because I can think of some very maybe charismatic circles that use stuff like this in ways that I would probably say are not not good.
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Yeah, you know, and would extrapolate out, okay, well, your friend got cancer, that must mean there's something lacking in faith.
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Right.
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Or, you know, la and and being like, okay, then the reason your friend, your brother in Christ has cancer again is because you know you guys weren't in alignment with God.
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Um, and I don't think that's biblical or right, or that's
what she I don't think that's what she is taught.
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Um, but there are things here where it's like, man, if you're not really careful with them, you know, they are dangerous, they are razor sharp, that uh it could be really easy to take someone like this.
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And if everything had worked out for you, you know, to be like, okay, then I must be in alignment with God.
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I've asked God, right?
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Man, I I I asked God that He would give me the job I wanted, and I got the job I wanted.
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And I asked for like, you know, a loving wife and and healthy kids.
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I got a loving wife and healthy kids, and I must be in alignment with God.
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It's fantastic, right?
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And it'd be so easy, you know, as you live along that path.
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And for the first time, when you encounter somebody that's like, man, they're following Jesus, but you know, the job didn't work out, you know, they got sick, their wife left them.
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It's a very comfortable solution to be like, well, there must be I mean, obviously there's misalignment between all of us and heaven and what God wants for us, and to some degree, but it'd be so easy to use this verse in that way.
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And so for me, one of the areas where like I'm not saying listener, you need to take this because you might have been hurt in a specific way and it needs more time to heal, but like I do think I need to give more grace to people because there's a a finality here and a uh not a finality, but a a directness with which Jesus speaks that our minds long long for the math equation.
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And it's very easy to put this verse and make it a math equation.
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Um and to make it a well A plus B equals C, and so I'm gonna put that in my life and operate in that way.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:29.039
Um and that's what my heart longs for, not in this way, but in other ways, and that's what we all long for.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:37.519
And so I'm just I'm thinking right now, like next time I encounter that sort of thing that I would consider wrong and false, I need to maybe step back and have a little bit more grace.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:39.279
I I really appreciate that.
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:46.799
I I think you know the the the uh phrase in first John 5 is according to his will, you know.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:58.480
So that's like okay, so that's where my justification that's where the justification shows up for me when we prayed about this, we focused on it, we fasted, I mean, we took it as seriously we know how, and it didn't work.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.039
What it didn't happen the way we Wanted it to.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:05.440
I mean, okay, so I say it's not according to his will,
which I think could be true.
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:20.799
I don't want to be misunderstood in that way, but I also think the way he says it, and like you've made the point, and how he draws attention to it twice, it may be assuming that, but it's not articulating that, you know?
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:27.680
And the other thing that popped up in my head is how many times have you been around somebody super passionate that they got an idea?
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:29.759
And they're like, We're gonna pray about this.
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:36.160
Imagine they would go, We're we're gonna pray about this, and we're gonna see if if we agree, and they pray.
00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:37.920
And you're like, I don't know.
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:39.599
I like I haven't thought about this idea.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:46.480
Like, we prayed, and I prayed, and I I don't feel any different, I don't have new insight, you know what I mean?
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:48.400
Uh but then would you be honest?
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:59.359
Would I be honest about I think your idea is terrible, or I think here's a reason why it's not gonna work, or I think it's fueling your own sense of self-importance, or whatever it is.
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:14.960
And so this requires the second person to be either to receive it from God at the same time and they're sharing it, but in most cases, how I experience life is somebody will come to me and think, I think God wants us to do this, or I've or to say this, or whatever.
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.880
And then I'm like, Do I have the integrity to say I don't sense it?
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.079
Like, I'm not saying you're wrong.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:22.400
I'm just and so then you don't have the two.
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:33.279
Is that the part that would make this take life more if we were so honest with each other that we really discerned, oh, I'm not getting an idea from God every half hour.
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:33.759
Sure.
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:38.640
I'm getting an idea from God every 12 years or or whatever it is, which is interesting to me.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:46.799
So it's funny is I think just probably based on our the lives we've lived, I I'm also I hear I I I what you said is just right.
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:58.720
But I also think like I need to hear it in the opposite way of like the encouragement of hey man, two or three brothers came, brothers, sisters came and prayed over this thing, and we all, man, we feel alignment, we feel like this is where God wants us to move.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:20.880
Like, I am such a skeptical person that like one of the things that I think I probably need to move into in life is like, man, when when there's alignment between uh brother and sister and I in Christ in a way that we want to move and ask for God, like I need to move in maybe this is not a phrase I would ever use very often, but move in power, you know, move in uh move in confidence.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:25.759
Um, and so that for me, I think is like uh is uh I I need to see from the opposite side.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:29.759
And like I I that doesn't take away, I think you're 100% correct from your observation.
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:44.799
But as you were saying that, I was like, oh, you know, I'm so prone to like even in times where like, man, we're all in a group, brothers and sisters in Christ, we're all prone, we're in alignment, and then I walk out of the car and I'm like, yeah, maybe, but I don't know, I don't know about that.
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:54.880
And it's like I'm not saying that like I need to walk out to the car and be like, you know, a hundred percent what just happened or where we're gonna move is gonna manifest itself.
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:59.759
God's gonna manifest itself exactly how I imagine in the exact ways I want it to be.
00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:05.759
Um, but I do think there is probably a piece of like, I need to walk in more confidence in the power of the Holy Spirit.
00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:15.200
Um and uh yeah, and and and like and again, this is not a phrase I use often, um, but there's like a sense in which I think I often walk in in defeat almost.
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:19.119
Like I'm already sometimes pre-explaining why it didn't work out, you know, for me.
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:19.519
Yeah.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:25.759
Uh and so that that's I did not expect this to be a convicting episode for me, but there's at least two convictions I I got.
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:27.599
Yeah, I really appreciate that.
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:35.519
And I will never think, I think I will never ever hear that hey, there's two more together, so Christ is here, which we understand.
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:37.839
This has real specific things.
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:38.880
Yes, two are there.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.960
When one of you are there, Christ is there too, you know, because Christ is in each of us.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:54.960
Um, but this specifically ties into this uh can you can you be in alignment with God and with each other in such a way that you're really hearing as a community?
00:25:55.119 --> 00:26:00.799
And that right there, that concept right there, never heard that the first, I don't know, decades of my life.
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:02.400
And so that's interesting to me.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:02.880
That's good.
00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:04.640
Just got the name for the for the episode.
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:10.400
Hearing here, what's yeah, hearing in as community, hearing as yeah, hearing as a community or something along those lines.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:12.160
I think that's what she said.
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:17.279
I mean, I'm gonna listen to this as I edit it and pick the name, but let me just awkwardly talk it out as I right here.
00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:17.920
There we go.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:38.480
Grace, peace, and love, and then we're gonna be a good idea.