Transkrip penuh untuk WKPWP Interview Classic (9-22-2016): Keller interviews Mick Karch about state of wrestling announcing, Bobby Heenan's greatness, more

Bockwinkle in their prime. But he also, at 34 00:02:15.500 --> 00:02:17.840 the time of this interview, was following wrestling as it 35 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:19.719 was happening at that time, the current events in wrestling. 36 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:22.139 So we talked about a wide range of topics, including 37 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.699 the contributions and legacy of of the late Nick Bockwinkle 38 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:29.039 and how he is underappreciated by today's fan base and 39 00:02:29.060 --> 00:02:31.319 how wrestlers today could learn so much by watching his 40 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:34.360 promos and his ring work. Also, Bobby Heenan's continued active 41 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.479 appearance schedule at that time and what made him so great. Also, 42 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:40.000 a discussion on the state of wrestling announcing and how 43 00:02:40.060 --> 00:02:44.300 it could improve and why it has faltered in recent years. Also, 44 00:02:44.580 --> 00:02:48.159 have crowds in the past generations dating back to the 45 00:02:48.219 --> 00:02:51.719 1970s ever rejected babyfaces and cheered heels at the rate 46 00:02:51.780 --> 00:02:54.250 that they have been in the modern era? And is 47 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:57.610 that a problem? And is it solvable? Also, changes in 48 00:02:57.629 --> 00:02:59.930 the attitudes and approaches of indie wrestlers today compared to 49 00:02:59.930 --> 00:03:01.550 30 years ago. Mick was very active on the indie 50 00:03:01.569 --> 00:03:04.969 scene and saw that firsthand. The scope of this discussion 51 00:03:05.050 --> 00:03:09.150 was vast, and Mick brought insights and anecdotes that few 52 00:03:09.349 --> 00:03:12.710 can provide based on his decades of experience active in 53 00:03:12.750 --> 00:03:15.129 pro wrestling behind the microphone, in the ring as a 54 00:03:15.129 --> 00:03:18.409 ring announcer, behind the scenes observing wrestlers and getting to 55 00:03:18.449 --> 00:03:21.650 know them, and his continued busy schedule in Minnesota on 56 00:03:21.669 --> 00:03:24.729 the East Coast, along with his current viewing of the 57 00:03:24.849 --> 00:03:26.990 WWE product at the time of this interview. So this 58 00:03:27.030 --> 00:03:29.250 is really good stuff. Mick is a great interview subject, 59 00:03:29.349 --> 00:03:31.860 and he has a voice that is soothing to listen to. 60 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.500 So here we go with this interview that originally live-streamed 61 00:03:36.139 --> 00:03:39.439 on September 22, 2016. It is today's Wade Keller Pro 62 00:03:39.460 --> 00:03:54.909 Wrestling Podcast Interview Classic for Saturday, September 19, 2026. Welcome 63 00:03:54.990 --> 00:03:59.129 to the PWTorch Livecast. This is Wade Keller, and I'm 64 00:03:59.169 --> 00:04:02.250 host of this, a six or seven day a week 65 00:04:03.009 --> 00:04:10.900 live pro wrestling current events driven talk show here at PWTorchLivecast.com. 66 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:14.919 We've

been going strong close to seven years, and Monday 67 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.920 night's post-RAW program. RAW may not have done a great 68 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:20.540 rating on Monday, but we had our highest listenership for 69 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.379 an individual episode ever on Monday, so thank you Everybody 70 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:27.790 for your continued support and continued incremental growth. We really 71 00:04:27.829 --> 00:04:31.269 appreciate the support you're showing this show. Yesterday, Travis Bryant 72 00:04:31.370 --> 00:04:34.029 from the PW Torch East Coast cast. That is a 73 00:04:34.170 --> 00:04:38.290 separate podcast in the Torch family. Travis was my guest 74 00:04:38.329 --> 00:04:40.829 yesterday for the midweek edition of the live cast where 75 00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:43.779 we talked for well over an hour about a wide 76 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:47.220 range of topics in the news. And we hope you'll 77 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:48.579 check that out if you missed that show. And then 78 00:04:48.620 --> 00:04:52.160 Tuesday night, I was joined by veteran columnist Pat McNeil. 79 00:04:52.750 --> 00:04:55.810 PWTorch columnist Pat McNeil to break down SmackDown as soon 80 00:04:55.850 --> 00:04:57.689 as the show went off the air. And Monday night, 81 00:04:57.769 --> 00:05:00.730 I was joined by PWTorch.com contributor for the first time 82 00:05:01.089 --> 00:05:03.480 here on the live cast. We got good feedback from 83 00:05:03.540 --> 00:05:07.339 his appearance, Joel Dennell. He's a big draw, apparently. Thank you, Joel. 84 00:05:07.779 --> 00:05:10.220 And we analyzed Raw for about an hour and a 85 00:05:10.259 --> 00:05:14.180 half and snuck in some comments on our attending NXT 86 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:17.709 Live on Saturday or Sunday afternoon before the big Viking game. 87 00:05:18.350 --> 00:05:21.170 On Sunday night, it was a busy day for sports 88 00:05:21.230 --> 00:05:23.910 and wrestling fans in Minnesota on Sunday. And I also 89 00:05:23.930 --> 00:05:25.790 talked a little bit about Looch Underground, which is his 90 00:05:25.850 --> 00:05:29.889 beat on PWTorch.com. So a busy week so far, and 91 00:05:29.930 --> 00:05:33.610 it's going to get better with Mick Karsh, my guest 92 00:05:33.629 --> 00:05:36.500 here on Interview Thursday. I'm going to bring him on momentarily, 93 00:05:36.540 --> 00:05:38.420 but I do want to remind you that a sponsor 94 00:05:38.459 --> 00:05:41.420 of our program is Loot Crate. In addition to their 95 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:46.860 main one, that's LootCrate.com, coupon code PWTorch. Let's now welcome 96 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:52.310 into the program my guest on today's show, a long-time friend, 97 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:53.170 Mick Karsh. How are you doing, Mick? 98 00:05:54.170 --> 00:05:56.250 Doing well, Wade. Thanks for having me on, and I 99 00:05:56.290 --> 00:05:58.490 know I've been putting you off for a while. You know, 100 00:05:58.529 --> 00:06:00.750 it's amazing that a guy who sits on Facebook all 101 00:06:00.790 --> 00:06:03.649 day and doesn't go anywhere just doesn't have time in 102 00:06:03.689 --> 00:06:07.110 his schedule to be on the torch. But thanks for 103 00:06:07.149 --> 00:06:07.509 having me. 104 00:06:07.870 --> 00:06:10.449 It's great to have you on. You stole my thoughts exactly. 105 00:06:10.620 --> 00:06:13.579 What the heck? What's going on? No, it's great to 106 00:06:13.620 --> 00:06:15.439 have you. I pursue you as a guest because I 107 00:06:15.459 --> 00:06:17.740 know it is tough to book you because the times 108 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:19.279 that this show is on don't always match up with 109 00:06:19.300 --> 00:06:21.459 the free time you have. And I always love having 110 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:25.459 you on the show. There are a few people in 111 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:29.560 the wrestling industry, Mick, who have the tenure that you have, 112 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:35.740 if anybody, as a wrestling announcer. And I mean, when 113 00:06:35.779 --> 00:06:40.129 did you announce your first wrestling show and Indy, AWA, 114 00:06:40.470 --> 00:06:44.750 whatever it was. Talk briefly about that, and then what 115 00:06:44.810 --> 00:06:49.410 percentage of years since then have you been active in 116 00:06:49.449 --> 00:06:51.670 wrestling in some form or fashion as an announcer? It's 117 00:06:51.689 --> 00:06:53.029 been pretty consistent for decades. 118 00:06:54.629 --> 00:06:57.610 Yeah, it really has. As far as I can remember, 119 00:06:57.769 --> 00:07:00.829 and I never get this exactly right, I believe the 120 00:07:00.889 --> 00:07:03.899 first match that I called was actually for Eddie Sharkey's 121 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:09.500 PWA promotion in 1985. I want to say that's what 122 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:14.139 it was. I know my first TV appearance was actually 123 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:18.750 promoting an event that George Shire did, Supervention 1984. I 124 00:07:19.050 --> 00:07:20.949 just saw that on YouTube. 125 00:07:21.069 --> 00:07:22.230 I saw that on YouTube. 126 00:07:22.329 --> 00:07:22.889 Yeah, yeah. 127 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:23.519 That was awesome. 128 00:07:25.129 --> 00:07:25.310 Yeah. 129 00:07:25.350 --> 00:07:28.470 And that was an 84. And of course, you know, Jesse, 130 00:07:28.769 --> 00:07:31.649 I've mentioned many times, this was Jesse Ventura's last day 131 00:07:32.170 --> 00:07:34.870 in the AWA. Jesse actually did a walk on while 132 00:07:34.930 --> 00:07:39.170 George Shire and I were promoting our fan convention. And 133 00:07:39.209 --> 00:07:41.170 I believe it was the same day that Jesse gave 134 00:07:41.230 --> 00:07:44.829 notice to burn. So essentially we probably, you know, booted him. 135 00:07:45.149 --> 00:07:47.610 We probably chased him out of the territory. He did 136 00:07:47.649 --> 00:07:49.850 his last promo and it was with us or, you know, 137 00:07:49.870 --> 00:07:51.269 with me and

then he left. 138 00:07:51.329 --> 00:07:54.509 But He should be setting you commission checks because he's 139 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:56.600 made a lot of money since then, Mick. So I 140 00:07:56.620 --> 00:07:59.420 think he owes you a little monthly commission. 141 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.139 Well, either that or he'll sue me for something one 142 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:07.019 way or another. Maybe there's something in the past. But 143 00:08:07.139 --> 00:08:09.959 in 1985 is when I think I started doing Eddie 144 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.699 Sharkey stuff locally. He was running some gyms and bars 145 00:08:14.779 --> 00:08:18.079 and nightclubs and what have you. He hadn't started at 146 00:08:18.139 --> 00:08:20.439 Ropers and Fridley yet, you know, the glory days of 147 00:08:20.779 --> 00:08:24.220 the PWA. But I believe that was the first foray. 148 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:27.939 And then in 1986 is when things really started to 149 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:32.000 take off. George Shire and I went up to Winnipeg, Canada, 150 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:37.000 for Tony Condello's NWA West 4 promotion with Bruiser Brody 151 00:08:37.019 --> 00:08:39.419 and Bob Brown. And a lot of Eddie Sharkey's guys 152 00:08:39.450 --> 00:08:42.809 were on that as well. So I'm guessing as near 153 00:08:42.850 --> 00:08:44.909 as I can tell, I've probably been doing this for 154 00:08:44.950 --> 00:08:49.120 like 30, 31 years. And I don't know, I mean, 155 00:08:49.139 --> 00:08:51.700 there's some lulls here and there where I'm not doing 156 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:54.799 a lot of shows, but I have really, one way 157 00:08:54.850 --> 00:08:58.450 or another, been consistently announcing wrestling since then. 158 00:09:01.009 --> 00:09:04.169 Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our 159 00:09:04.210 --> 00:09:10.110 shows commercial-free. A nice, streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com slash govip 160 00:09:10.409 --> 00:09:13.429 for full details on a commercial-free listening experience. And with 161 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.210 a full VIP membership... You can create custom feeds for 162 00:09:16.309 --> 00:09:19.309 individual shows or groups of shows by theme and also 163 00:09:19.429 --> 00:09:23.129 unlock nearly four decades of archives and access our ad-free 164 00:09:23.190 --> 00:09:28.200 website with VIP exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. Your time 165 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:30.000 is valuable, and that's one of the reasons we offer 166 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:38.740 VIP membership. pwtorch.com slash govip. That's amazing. And I actually 167 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:41.860 meant to ask you ahead of time for a couple questions. 168 00:09:42.539 --> 00:09:45.639 YouTube links for people who aren't familiar with your announcing 169 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:49.429 that we could put up to convey maybe match calls 170 00:09:49.470 --> 00:09:51.309 that you know are available on YouTube that you're proud of. 171 00:09:52.250 --> 00:09:55.230 I think that, and I say this regularly when you're 172 00:09:55.330 --> 00:10:00.460 on the show, your call of matches and the approach 173 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:03.919 you take has been consistent over the years during a 174 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:06.100 time when I think that there has been a decline 175 00:10:06.820 --> 00:10:11.519 in most instances of how wrestling announcers approach calling the game. 176 00:10:12.169 --> 00:10:14.850 And some of that is just the hiring practices of WWE, 177 00:10:14.889 --> 00:10:18.360 the production team, Vince McMahon. I'm not just blaming the 178 00:10:18.419 --> 00:10:21.100 people who have done the announcing. Sometimes they get picked 179 00:10:21.179 --> 00:10:22.799 for certain traits that they have and then they get 180 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:25.000 produced a certain way and that's what the end product is. 181 00:10:25.899 --> 00:10:27.970 What I love about the approach that you've taken, and 182 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:30.429 I think it speaks to your longevity and why you're 183 00:10:30.490 --> 00:10:32.370 in demand when you are available and there's a show 184 00:10:32.409 --> 00:10:35.909 that you're interested in doing, is you call it through 185 00:10:35.950 --> 00:10:41.769 the eye, you call it professionally through the lens of 186 00:10:42.570 --> 00:10:44.789 the fan that you once were and actually still are. 187 00:10:45.590 --> 00:10:46.409 And Right. 188 00:10:46.529 --> 00:10:46.750 Right. 189 00:11:16.049 --> 00:11:18.259 That is not to be admired because we're here to 190 00:11:18.299 --> 00:11:19.740 find out who the best wrestler is, not who the 191 00:11:19.779 --> 00:11:23.620 best cheater is. And that works well. Now, some fans 192 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:26.240 might listen to that and be like, eh, you know what? 193 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:28.120 I admire the guy who cheats a little bit to win. 194 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:31.120 Your style of announcing even works for that fan because 195 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:34.820 at least you're setting the narrative foundation and tone for 196 00:11:34.860 --> 00:11:38.440 the match. And it feels like a lost art, Mick, 197 00:11:38.460 --> 00:11:41.919 when I listen to announcing. Announcers are so focused on 198 00:11:42.059 --> 00:11:44.100 other things now. Am I being too harsh on today's 199 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:46.389 announcing and I, I think there's exceptions, and I think 200 00:11:46.590 --> 00:11:50.379 every high-profile announcer has good traits that everybody can learn from. 201 00:11:50.669 --> 00:11:53.860 But overall, do you agree with that sentiment? And I 202 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:57.299 know it's tough to talk too specifically about, you know, 203 00:11:57.500 --> 00:11:59.720 without seeming like I'm great and everybody else who does 204 00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:02.039 my job isn't. I don't want that tone, but am 205 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:04.539 I right in terms of, am I tapping into something 206

00:12:04.580 --> 00:12:06.299 about your approach and your belief in how to approach 207 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:06.840 wrestling announcing? 208 00:12:07.750 --> 00:12:11.029 Oh, absolutely. You know, it's the old school style and 209 00:12:11.149 --> 00:12:12.730 it's what I grew up on. I mean, in so 210 00:12:12.750 --> 00:12:18.120 many ways, I'm still caught up, you know, in the 1960s, 1970s, whatever. And, 211 00:12:18.149 --> 00:12:20.120 you know, you made a point, Wade, about whether or 212 00:12:20.139 --> 00:12:22.639 not you're being too harsh on the modern day announcer. 213 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:25.159 I don't think it's the announcers themselves. Like you said, 214 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:28.830 it's not their fault. They've got Vince McMahon or whoever 215 00:12:28.889 --> 00:12:32.620 it is in their earpiece all the time, and they've 216 00:12:32.629 --> 00:12:36.320 got pay-per-views to promote, and they've got products to promote, 217 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:41.440 and whatever else they have, WWE Network, on and on. 218 00:12:42.019 --> 00:12:46.029 I don't have that. On the local level, my job 219 00:12:46.230 --> 00:12:50.169 is to get over what we are doing with the promotion. 220 00:12:51.019 --> 00:12:54.379 My job has always been to get over, as you said, 221 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:57.899 the heels and baby faces. I don't have the distractions. 222 00:12:58.019 --> 00:13:02.259 I have the luxury of being able to focus on 223 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:07.029 the match itself. And again, this is the link to 224 00:13:07.590 --> 00:13:12.950 my old school philosophy. I know what's out there about wrestling. 225 00:13:13.090 --> 00:13:15.889 I know that the train left the station a long 226 00:13:15.929 --> 00:13:20.100 time ago as far as kayfabe is concerned. That's obvious. 227 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:23.379 And For me to come on and say anything else 228 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:27.470 is ludicrous, but it's still my job for that two 229 00:13:27.509 --> 00:13:30.750 hours or whatever I am doing at one of these 230 00:13:30.830 --> 00:13:34.409 local events or a national event, whatever it might be, 231 00:13:34.909 --> 00:13:37.830 my loyalty is still to the business. My loyalty is 232 00:13:37.929 --> 00:13:41.620 still to the performers in the ring. Here's an example. 233 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.519 With Steel Domain, I'm in the booking capacity right now, 234 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:48.830 so When I get out there, not only am I 235 00:13:48.870 --> 00:13:51.789 getting over my storyline, I'm getting over the guys that 236 00:13:51.809 --> 00:13:56.870 are in the ring. I've always considered myself the narrator 237 00:13:56.990 --> 00:14:01.379 for the story or maybe the background music to the 238 00:14:01.409 --> 00:14:04.899 story that's going on in the ring. But at the 239 00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:08.200 end of the day, the art is still professional wrestling. 240 00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:11.000 You're still getting over or trying to get over your 241 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:14.990 upcoming event. And on the local level, that's really important. 242 00:14:15.029 --> 00:14:18.210 You don't have the luxury of all the production values 243 00:14:18.250 --> 00:14:20.690 and everything else that a Vince McMahon does. So my 244 00:14:20.809 --> 00:14:24.889 job is really vital to sell the guys in the ring, 245 00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:28.509 to put over the, especially the younger guys, get that 246 00:14:28.570 --> 00:14:31.889 story over and get the couple hundred people into the 247 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:35.139 building the next month. And I take pride in it. 248 00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:36.059 And that's what I do. 249 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.659 And a big part of that formula is not feeling like, 250 00:14:41.330 --> 00:14:44.590 like you're insulting the intelligence of your viewers by actually 251 00:14:44.629 --> 00:14:48.370 pretending that what's happening in the ring is real. And 252 00:14:48.389 --> 00:14:54.450 I feel like that is not consistently applied. Because I 253 00:14:54.470 --> 00:14:59.120 wouldn't want to watch a police drama and have any 254 00:14:59.289 --> 00:15:03.740 actor in that TV drama or movie acting like it 255 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:05.779 would be insulting to the intelligence of the audience to 256 00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:09.019 pretend that they're really cops. It's like, no, no, they're 257 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.460 really going after criminals. That's from the opening to the 258 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.500 closing of the show. I want everyone on board with that, 259 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:20.279 unabashedly so. And sometimes I think the announcing, it's not 260 00:15:20.539 --> 00:15:25.070 like a Mystery Science 3000, using another Minnesota-based reference, because 261 00:15:25.110 --> 00:15:28.370 that show was based out of here, where it's let's 262 00:15:28.450 --> 00:15:32.929 snicker at things. I mean, there's an aspect to the 263 00:15:32.950 --> 00:15:34.970 announcing where people are just trying to get themselves over, 264 00:15:34.990 --> 00:15:37.740 especially with color commentators, but sometimes lead announcing is, as 265 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.220 cool and speaking to the fan with a wink and 266 00:15:40.259 --> 00:15:42.220 a nod. It's like, no, I, you know, it's one 267 00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:44.549 of the things I respect about Mauro Ranallo's approach is 268 00:15:44.909 --> 00:15:48.450 he's just all in. I mean, he's just, I'm, he's 269 00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:51.750 super excited. He's, he's got the, he's got that, that 270 00:15:52.269 --> 00:15:54.149 I think there's a generation of fans who haven't even 271 00:15:54.190 --> 00:15:57.450 experienced an announcer like Mauro, who seems like a bigger 272 00:15:57.509 --> 00:16:00.580 fan than the average fan watching. And, and I like 273 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:02.460 that aspect of it too. You don't want an announcer 274 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.230 who

comes across like they're, they're kind of phoning it in, 275 00:16:05.259 --> 00:16:10.769 they're on autopilot. And Todd Grisham, he's smooth and professional, 276 00:16:11.529 --> 00:16:13.870 but he always felt like he was on autopilot, and 277 00:16:13.909 --> 00:16:16.710 the last thing he wanted to think about when the 278 00:16:16.750 --> 00:16:19.409 show was over is anything having to do with pro wrestling. 279 00:16:19.909 --> 00:16:23.950 And he might be the greatest dad and friend and 280 00:16:24.230 --> 00:16:27.129 charitable individual who's never done anything wrong outside of wrestling, 281 00:16:27.509 --> 00:16:30.639 but As a wrestling announcer, I don't think he ever 282 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:32.500 got me more excited about the product. Now, there's been 283 00:16:32.539 --> 00:16:36.240 people less professional and less smooth. But Todd was– I 284 00:16:36.259 --> 00:16:38.799 kind of point to him as just a Sears catalog. 285 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.700 He looks good on the headshot. The Sears catalog model-looking guy, 286 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:45.139 he's smooth. He's not going to trip over his lines. 287 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:47.419 The type of guy that Kevin Dunn and Vince McMahon 288 00:16:47.860 --> 00:16:51.740 want to project to the corporate world are our announcers. 289 00:16:52.100 --> 00:16:55.529 And they don't sell tickets. It's your unbridled enthusiasm and 290 00:16:55.570 --> 00:16:58.730 passion on the microphone– that gets people's adrenaline racing. And 291 00:16:58.750 --> 00:17:00.549 that's one of the things that, that I, I just, 292 00:17:01.409 --> 00:17:03.320 it didn't even used to stand out to me as much, Mick. 293 00:17:03.500 --> 00:17:06.140 I mean, cause it used to be more normal. And 294 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:08.079 now when I hear your announcing, I'm just like, this 295 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:09.019 is so novel. 296 00:17:09.059 --> 00:17:09.299 It is. 297 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:11.880 And you talk about old school. I think it's timeless. 298 00:17:12.019 --> 00:17:14.619 I just think there's, it's not about something was old 299 00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:17.750 and now it's outdated. And I don't think that's what 300 00:17:17.789 --> 00:17:19.349 you mean by it, but I think some people hear that. 301 00:17:20.109 --> 00:17:23.160 It's this timeless, correct approach to wrestling announcing. And, and, 302 00:17:23.430 --> 00:17:27.279 You are one of the last full unabashed applicants of it. 303 00:17:29.299 --> 00:17:34.140 I really appreciate that. You mentioned Mauro Ranallo. I love 304 00:17:34.180 --> 00:17:37.740 his approach to announcing. It's funny. I've gone on social 305 00:17:37.779 --> 00:17:40.059 media and some people knock him because they think he's 306 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:45.980 over the top. That's what he's supposed to be. That's 307 00:17:46.059 --> 00:17:50.740 the thing. He is supposed to be that excited. A 308 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:55.759 suplex or a dropkick or a sleeper hold, or a 309 00:17:56.109 --> 00:17:59.890 pile driver, whatever it is, suplex, that is supposed to 310 00:17:59.950 --> 00:18:03.210 mean as much as it did 20 years ago. It 311 00:18:03.289 --> 00:18:06.509 is supposed to be as effective a maneuver as it 312 00:18:06.589 --> 00:18:10.819 was back in the day. But sadly, the announcers just 313 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:13.680 gloss over it right now. More or less, we'll sell 314 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.289 the hell out of it. And that's what he's supposed 315 00:18:16.329 --> 00:18:20.170 to do. If the wrestlers... Here's another analogy that I 316 00:18:20.190 --> 00:18:22.349 would say. If the wrestlers are in the ring and 317 00:18:22.410 --> 00:18:26.160 they're busting their ass to sell a move, then it's 318 00:18:26.339 --> 00:18:29.960 my job to help them sell it. It's my job 319 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.440 not to gloss over it. If a guy is rolling 320 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.500 on the mat as a result of a clothesline... then 321 00:18:36.619 --> 00:18:39.029 I've got to sell that clothesline as being the most 322 00:18:39.490 --> 00:18:43.829 devastating shot since JBL. I'm not supposed to gloss over it. 323 00:18:44.130 --> 00:18:48.359 I'm a bit player in this whole production. So I 324 00:18:48.390 --> 00:18:51.859 think Mauro Ranallo is just an excellent example. I'm really 325 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:55.319 excited to hear this guy announced because, again, He's the 326 00:18:55.579 --> 00:19:00.140 one announcer that I still relate to in wrestling, and 327 00:19:01.069 --> 00:19:03.769 I appreciate you bringing him up. And again, the other announcers, 328 00:19:03.869 --> 00:19:06.529 I don't know if they're capable, if they're even capable 329 00:19:06.950 --> 00:19:11.049 of calling a match the old school style or whatever 330 00:19:11.089 --> 00:19:13.569 you want to call it. I think they've been so 331 00:19:14.069 --> 00:19:19.589 indoctrinated and inundated. into the whole production and everything else 332 00:19:19.650 --> 00:19:22.589 that they have to get over, that if you told them, 333 00:19:22.630 --> 00:19:25.950 all right, tonight we're not going to promote anything else, 334 00:19:26.529 --> 00:19:29.049 you're going to call this match for 20, 25 minutes. 335 00:19:29.130 --> 00:19:31.670 Vince is not going to be in your headset. You're 336 00:19:31.789 --> 00:19:35.710 on your own. I think they'd stumble, some of them, anyway. 337 00:19:36.450 --> 00:19:37.950 Yeah, I think you're right. All right, we're going to 338 00:19:37.970 --> 00:19:39.779 go to our first commercial break of the show and 339 00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:42.359 take a breath here. If you all want to participate 340 00:19:42.380 --> 00:19:44.779 in the show, you're welcome to call us. The number 341 00:19:44.819 --> 00:19:44.940 is 515-605-9345. 342 00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:45.000 515-605-9345. 343 00:19:46.769 --> 00:19:54.220 More with Mick Harsh after this break. We're

going to 344 00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:56.119 talk about some other things Mick has coming up that 345 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:01.539 are interesting projects and jobs ideas coming up. We also 346 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:03.339 want to talk about the current wrestling scene. Mick follows 347 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.460 it closely. And I want to talk about the development 348 00:20:07.579 --> 00:20:11.450 of talent and how that process has changed because of 349 00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:17.210 WWE's system, and the way that wrestlers travel through the 350 00:20:17.250 --> 00:20:20.990 indie circuit, and how they can still perhaps get recognized 351 00:20:21.470 --> 00:20:24.210 if their goal is to make it onto the national scene, 352 00:20:24.630 --> 00:20:27.329 or international scene for that matter, and the mentality of 353 00:20:27.349 --> 00:20:29.029 the indie wrestler, Mick. I'm interested to talk to you 354 00:20:29.049 --> 00:20:31.869 about how not every indie wrestler on every show aspires 355 00:20:31.910 --> 00:20:35.589 to work full-time in the business. There are weekend warriors 356 00:20:35.789 --> 00:20:40.029 and hobbyists who go... whose efforts and tenure I think 357 00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:43.450 goes largely unacclaimed outside of the following that they have 358 00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:44.990 from the people who attend the shows and the people 359 00:20:45.009 --> 00:20:46.190 who work with them. And I want to talk about 360 00:20:46.210 --> 00:20:47.940 that a little bit too. So all that and more 361 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:52.859 coming up after this break. If you're like me, you've 362 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:53.500 got a list. 363 00:20:55.539 --> 00:20:58.380 Hey everyone, Greg Parks here. You've probably heard me hosting 364 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.130 Wrestling Night in America after pay-per-views and also co-hosting the 365 00:21:01.170 --> 00:21:04.069 Tuesday flagship with Wade Keller. I also host a VIP 366 00:21:04.109 --> 00:21:07.309 exclusive podcast every week called Greg Parks Out Loud. In 367 00:21:07.329 --> 00:21:09.569 this podcast, I delve into a single topic for around 368 00:21:09.569 --> 00:21:11.750 20 minutes, perfect length for one of your daily commutes 369 00:21:11.930 --> 00:21:14.420 or while walking the dog. A couple of my recent 370 00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:16.519 episodes included a look at TNA as they move to 371 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:21.119 AMC and WWE and AEW injuries for the year 2025. 372 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:23.519 You can listen to VIP podcasts with a VIP membership 373 00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:26.990 on many platforms, including on Patreon, Spotify, the Apple Podcasts 374 00:21:27.029 --> 00:21:29.829 native app on iPhone and CarPlay, just about every popular 375 00:21:29.930 --> 00:21:32.589 iOS and Android podcast app out there, and even stream 376 00:21:32.630 --> 00:21:35.940 right from the ad-free PWTorch VIP website. Full details on 377 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:40.380 VIP membership at

pwtorch.com slash govip. As an added bonus, 378 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.059 VIP membership means you won't hear this commercial again, or 379 00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:45.799 any commercials, as commercial breaks are skipped right over on 380 00:21:45.819 --> 00:21:48.980 the VIP podcast feed, in addition to all the commercial-free 381 00:21:49.029 --> 00:21:49.930 VIP podcasts. 382 00:21:50.309 --> 00:21:50.730 Check it out. 383 00:21:50.890 --> 00:21:52.789 We'd love for you to join our community and unlock 384 00:21:52.869 --> 00:21:55.130 access to all our VIP-exclusive content. 385 00:21:56.950 --> 00:22:01.130 For you, so show support for us, pwtorch.com slash amazon. 386 00:22:01.500 --> 00:22:05.220 Mick Harsch is my guest, a long-tenured pro wrestling announcer. 387 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:08.099 He's had a lot of experience. He started off running 388 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.160 the Nick Bockwinkle Fan Club. Nick, one of the all-time 389 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:16.970 great wrestlers. Mick, it feels strange talking about Nick Bockwinkle 390 00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:19.589 in past tense, and I'm sure it does to you too. 391 00:22:20.250 --> 00:22:25.630 Has it sunk in yet that Nick Bockwinkle is no 392 00:22:25.670 --> 00:22:26.990 longer with us on this planet? 393 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.279 When it sunk in with me, Wade, was at Cauliflower 394 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:35.460 Alley Club when Nick was not there for the first 395 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:40.440 time and his widow Darlene was there. That's when it 396 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.690 really hit. I mean, every day I think about him. 397 00:22:42.970 --> 00:22:46.049 You know, I go to any wrestling site. I go 398 00:22:46.150 --> 00:22:49.730 to the YouTube videos. I go through my old Bockwinkle 399 00:22:49.750 --> 00:22:53.170 Brigade newsletters, whatever it is. I'm always thinking about Nick, 400 00:22:53.210 --> 00:22:55.470 and yet it's very, very hard. You know, and I 401 00:22:55.509 --> 00:23:00.180 mentioned to him a couple of years ago, cauliflower alley club. 402 00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:03.200 I said, you know, Nick, it's still in my mind, 403 00:23:03.259 --> 00:23:07.829 it's still 1972. And, you know, I'm still a snot 404 00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:11.009 nose kid and you're still just coming into the AWA. 405 00:23:11.750 --> 00:23:14.029 And that's the way I still think of it. I mean, 406 00:23:14.069 --> 00:23:17.049 it's impossible for me to believe that he's gone as 407 00:23:17.190 --> 00:23:20.319 frail as he was. Uh, the last time I saw him, 408 00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:26.849 excuse me, he, um, It's still hard to take. For me, 409 00:23:27.250 --> 00:23:30.740 it's a slap in the face of reality, not only 410 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:33.579 with Nick, but with Vern Gagne, of course, and with 411 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:36.819 Mad Dog Rashad and Billy Robinson. The list is endless 412 00:23:36.859 --> 00:23:38.819 of the guys that I grew up with that are 413 00:23:38.859 --> 00:23:41.829 no longer here. But Nick in particular, my relationship with 414 00:23:41.869 --> 00:23:48.730 him extended beyond the business to a 45-year friendship. So absolutely, 415 00:23:48.789 --> 00:23:50.609 I miss the guy. 416 00:23:50.630 --> 00:23:53.589 I want to underline that Nick Bockwinkle is one of 417 00:23:53.609 --> 00:23:57.279 the all-time great wrestlers. And I think he's, for the 418 00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:01.319 level of talent that he had as a worker in 419 00:24:01.339 --> 00:24:04.960 the ring and as an interview promoting his matches and 420 00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:07.220 building himself up and playing off of Bobby Heenan during 421 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:11.599 their glory years together, I think there's no greater gap 422 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.630 between the knowledge and recognition of somebody who was so 423 00:24:15.670 --> 00:24:19.190 good at and would fit in today in the skill 424 00:24:19.210 --> 00:24:20.849 set that he had with the bumps that he took 425 00:24:20.869 --> 00:24:22.650 in the style that he worked in the promos that 426 00:24:22.670 --> 00:24:26.250 he cut, there's no greater gap between the average mainstream, uh, 427 00:24:26.349 --> 00:24:30.990 current generation wrestling fans, knowledge of history and the appreciation that, that, 428 00:24:31.329 --> 00:24:34.170 that Nick Blackwinkle deserves. And I think people have, I 429 00:24:34.210 --> 00:24:36.180 think he's, it's not like he's unheard of. There's a, 430 00:24:36.339 --> 00:24:38.680 there's wrestlers of his generation that are less known, but 431 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.799 I don't know because he was the AWA champion that 432 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.180 his history gets honored and recognized and featured as much 433 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:48.539 as champions of his generation in who worked for the 434 00:24:48.619 --> 00:24:51.740 NWA and the WWF, whose brands, which at the time 435 00:24:51.769 --> 00:24:54.890 were no bigger than the AWA, but have survived and 436 00:24:54.930 --> 00:24:58.589 gone on through corporate changes and public name change of 437 00:24:58.809 --> 00:25:03.390 WWF to WWE. But the lineage isn't referenced. It isn't 438 00:25:03.470 --> 00:25:06.069 shown in those slideshows and video packages. And it's a 439 00:25:06.109 --> 00:25:09.759 shame because of the greats of his generation, he's the 440 00:25:09.819 --> 00:25:14.099 one who deserves more recognition and I think more recognition 441 00:25:15.210 --> 00:25:17.910 more recognition from today's generation as one of the all-time greats. 442 00:25:17.930 --> 00:25:20.750 Do you agree with me on that, or do you 443 00:25:20.809 --> 00:25:21.829 hope that's not true? 444 00:25:24.029 --> 00:25:27.299 Well, I agree with you 100%, and of course you're 445 00:25:27.339 --> 00:25:30.200 asking the wrong guy or the right guy when you 446 00:25:30.220 --> 00:25:34.539 reference the recognition that Nick deserved and maybe didn't

get. 447 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:36.440 I think part of it, Wade, you hit right on 448 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.730 the head, is because a lot of the guys... from 449 00:25:39.769 --> 00:25:43.039 back then are still around, whether it's Ric Flair or 450 00:25:43.150 --> 00:25:45.500 Hulk Hogan kind of on the peripheral or whatever it 451 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:46.119 might be. 452 00:25:46.579 --> 00:25:47.539 Bob Backlund, Bruno Sammartino. 453 00:25:47.559 --> 00:25:51.960 Yeah, Bob Backlund. Yeah, and you're right, and they're still here. 454 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:58.369 And Nick, yeah, Nick retired in 1987. And so we're 455 00:25:58.390 --> 00:26:01.890 talking incredibly 30 years ago. But I felt that even 456 00:26:01.990 --> 00:26:05.109 back then, because a lot of the magazines, you know, 457 00:26:05.130 --> 00:26:08.650 back then it wasn't the Internet, it wasn't the PW Torch. 458 00:26:09.529 --> 00:26:11.970 or Wrestling Observer, what have you, that were kind of 459 00:26:11.990 --> 00:26:15.619 the mainstream media outlets for wrestling fans, it was the magazines. 460 00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:19.359 And a lot of the magazines were based out of 461 00:26:19.420 --> 00:26:23.539 the East Coast. So Bruno Sammartino, as an example, or 462 00:26:23.619 --> 00:26:27.660 Hulk Hogan, they always got that. They had the first-class treatment. 463 00:26:28.009 --> 00:26:30.329 And then, of course, you had Ric Flair and Ric Steamboat, 464 00:26:30.450 --> 00:26:33.309 and then you had the AWA. That's always the way 465 00:26:33.369 --> 00:26:37.309 I felt about it. And nobody really takes a look at... 466 00:26:37.910 --> 00:26:42.799 how impactful not only the AWA, but Nick Brockwinkel was 467 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:47.440 back in the 1970s into the 1980s. You can talk 468 00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:51.329 about all you want about the East Coast or flare 469 00:26:51.349 --> 00:26:53.970 down an NWA, but my God, when Vern was hitting 470 00:26:54.009 --> 00:26:59.130 his stride and you had St. Paul and Winnipeg and 471 00:26:59.210 --> 00:27:04.240 Denver and Chicago and Green Bay all selling out every month, 472 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:10.880 one after another, The legacy of the AWA is far better, 473 00:27:10.940 --> 00:27:13.440 I think, than it's recognized. And as far as Nick 474 00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:16.359 is concerned, we've talked about this before. I don't think 475 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:21.700 anybody put people over the way Nick did. An example, 476 00:27:21.819 --> 00:27:24.779 Rufus Jones. I don't know how many longtime wrestling fans 477 00:27:24.819 --> 00:27:27.740 will remember Rufus. He was a great talent in terms 478 00:27:27.779 --> 00:27:32.049 of gimmick and in terms of character. His entering performance 479 00:27:32.089 --> 00:27:35.470 was kind of all show and no go, but Nick 480 00:27:35.509 --> 00:27:38.579 made him look like a million dollars. And that's the 481 00:27:38.619 --> 00:27:41.579 kind of thing that Nick did

no matter who he wrestled, 482 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.420 no matter where he wrestled, no matter what territory. He 483 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:49.450 was so good, and he took those hellacious back bumps 484 00:27:49.509 --> 00:27:52.880 for so many years. Probably the greatest back bumper of 485 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:57.000 all time. And sadly, it caught up with him later 486 00:27:57.059 --> 00:28:00.779 in life in so many ways. But yeah, again, Nick 487 00:28:00.819 --> 00:28:05.630 is just colossal. And I was honored to have known 488 00:28:05.650 --> 00:28:06.509 him all those years. 489 00:28:06.890 --> 00:28:10.390 And the lineage of the bumps that he took, Kurt 490 00:28:10.430 --> 00:28:17.259 Henning emulated Nick Bockwinkle's style. Shawn Michaels emulated Kurt Henning's style. 491 00:28:17.990 --> 00:28:22.079 a whole generation of wrestlers today emulated Shawn Michaels style 492 00:28:22.630 --> 00:28:25.940 in there. Steve Austin, a great admirer of Nick Bockwinkle 493 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.640 took great flat back, great flat back bumps in his day. 494 00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.880 And that has a lineage to, to respecting in a 495 00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:36.359 connection to Nick Bockwinkle. 496 00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:37.380 Yeah. 497 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:39.440 I mean, you look at him and you cringe a 498 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:40.960 little bit cause you know, they paid a price for 499 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.259 him and, and, you know, we just didn't know back then. 500 00:28:43.460 --> 00:28:47.869 I mean, I have, Little tolerance for inefficiencies of bump 501 00:28:47.890 --> 00:28:52.670 taking today, share shots to the head, stunt matches that 502 00:28:52.769 --> 00:28:56.670 don't result in anything but a fleeting this is awesome chant, 503 00:28:57.009 --> 00:29:01.099 but doesn't actually impact anything else. And I have little 504 00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:05.720 tolerance for that because now we know. We know the 505 00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:08.740 price that can be paid for taking an unnecessary chance 506 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.900 that doesn't contribute to the story being told in the ring. 507 00:29:13.670 --> 00:29:18.349 and character development and feud progression and selling tickets, and 508 00:29:18.410 --> 00:29:21.200 that these are real people and these bumps add up. 509 00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:26.180 And encouraging a bunch of, in the context of being 510 00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:29.819 an announcer, a booker, or a fan in the crowd, 511 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:35.089 I am critical of and hope that we move away 512 00:29:35.190 --> 00:29:41.480 from rewarding just stunt fests and excessive... abuse on the 513 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.799 body through wrestling style. And everybody in the industry figures 514 00:29:45.940 --> 00:29:48.599 out how to move away from that and tell better stories. 515 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:51.339 And that's some of the things I loved about some 516 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:52.960 of the things that NXT has done. And they haven't 517 00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:55.460 always been perfect in this regard, but there seems to 518 00:29:55.500 --> 00:29:57.880 be this dedication on the part of some of the 519 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:00.960 people involved in NXT, the wrestlers and the producers and 520 00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:04.240 agents to figure this formula out, how to keep the 521 00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:07.319 crowds invested in the match without wrestlers taking bumps that 522 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.980 are going to catch up to them someday. And I 523 00:30:10.049 --> 00:30:11.869 hope that we continue on that path in wrestling. 524 00:30:13.750 --> 00:30:16.410 Wait, it's stupid, first of all, to go in there 525 00:30:16.609 --> 00:30:19.630 and take these chair shots or go through tables or 526 00:30:19.650 --> 00:30:21.509 whatever you're going to do from 40 feet up in 527 00:30:21.549 --> 00:30:24.539 the air, you know, from a balcony when you're wrestling 528 00:30:24.579 --> 00:30:27.400 in front of 30 people, when you're a weekend warrior, 529 00:30:27.460 --> 00:30:29.319 as you mentioned just before you went to the break. 530 00:30:30.220 --> 00:30:33.880 For what? And the longevity of these guys that are 531 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:37.200 working today, some of them is probably a couple, three years, 532 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:40.819 and they don't do it often or whatever. But when 533 00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:42.980 they go in and they take these chair shots or 534 00:30:43.019 --> 00:30:46.220 these spills through tables or onto the floor or what 535 00:30:46.289 --> 00:30:50.450 have you, I don't get it. It means nothing. Back 536 00:30:50.509 --> 00:30:53.470 in the day, if you took a chair shot, maybe 537 00:30:53.490 --> 00:30:55.769 it was a disqualification. Maybe it was at the end 538 00:30:55.809 --> 00:31:00.230 of the match. And you took one. You didn't take 40. 539 00:31:00.230 --> 00:31:04.650 It's just it's a lost art. And again, I reference 540 00:31:04.670 --> 00:31:07.759 Cauliflower Alley Club. I go out there and I see 541 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.000 so many of the guys who wrestled back in the day, 542 00:31:11.619 --> 00:31:15.059 whether it was a Bachwinkle or a Harley Race or 543 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:19.849 Terry Funk or whoever from back then. And you see 544 00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:23.269 the residual effects of all that they did over the 545 00:31:23.309 --> 00:31:25.490 years when they were trying to get the story across 546 00:31:25.829 --> 00:31:29.369 and they had an appreciation for the business. Nowadays, it's 547 00:31:29.430 --> 00:31:32.630 the shock factor. You're doing it in front of 25 548 00:31:32.630 --> 00:31:36.910 friends and family at your local VFW or what have you. 549 00:31:37.089 --> 00:31:40.089 For what? I don't get it. For your $ 25 payoff? 550 00:31:41.819 --> 00:31:43.859 it's a badge of honor to get your video up 551 00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:46.779 on

YouTube because somebody hit you over the head with a, 552 00:31:46.819 --> 00:31:49.279 with a light bulb and electrocuted you or whatever it 553 00:31:49.339 --> 00:31:52.380 might be. Total nonsense as far as I'm concerned. 554 00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:56.069 And sometimes it's not the big stunt bumps. It's, it's a, 555 00:31:56.059 --> 00:31:59.210 a running power bomb into the turnbuckle or against the 556 00:31:59.250 --> 00:32:02.829 ring barrier that has knocked Finn Balor out of action 557 00:32:02.950 --> 00:32:04.849 even before he won the universal title in the match 558 00:32:04.869 --> 00:32:08.009 where he won the universal title, a running power bomb, uh, 559 00:32:08.289 --> 00:32:11.750 by Seth Rollins, uh, injured him. And, And I was 560 00:32:12.859 --> 00:32:15.960 talking to a wrestler about this. The dynamic of that 561 00:32:16.019 --> 00:32:20.920 move is you either don't know when you're going to 562 00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.440 make impact because you're facing the wrong way and you're 563 00:32:24.460 --> 00:32:28.329 being tossed in a direction where you don't see how 564 00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:30.670 far you are away from the turnbuckle or the ring barrier. 565 00:32:31.089 --> 00:32:33.109 And so what Finn Balor did is he turned his 566 00:32:33.130 --> 00:32:36.230 head to look because he's at ringside. He doesn't have 567 00:32:36.250 --> 00:32:38.089 a sense of how far that ring barrier is. And 568 00:32:38.130 --> 00:32:41.819 that's what threw off what is supposed to be spreading 569 00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:44.500 out the point of impact across. That's why wrestlers slap 570 00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:46.160 the mat when they land. It's the same thing you 571 00:32:46.180 --> 00:32:48.579 learn in judo. Slapping the mat takes the impact away 572 00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:51.500 from your body when you use your muscles to distribute 573 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:55.339 that in waves throughout a larger surface area. When Finn 574 00:32:55.380 --> 00:32:57.279 Balor had to turn to look where he was landing, 575 00:32:57.680 --> 00:32:59.880 it threw off the center of gravity, and all the impact, 576 00:32:59.900 --> 00:33:02.200 or the vast majority of the impact, was on that arm. 577 00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:04.299 And now he's out for a long stretch of time. 578 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.940 It's a dumb move. It's not worth it, and there's 579 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.460 too much of that going on. Mick, I don't want 580 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.720 to get too off on current wrestling style. I want 581 00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:17.269 to tackle some of the other topics that we spoke of. 582 00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:19.670 Before we do that, though, I know that there was, 583 00:33:20.329 --> 00:33:21.650 we haven't talked a lot about it, but you used 584 00:33:21.670 --> 00:33:25.730 to host a wrestling block of shows where there was 585 00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:29.210 a collection of syndicated wrestling shows from across the country. 586 00:33:29.990 --> 00:33:33.519 And you had a couple stints doing that. And I 587 00:33:33.559 --> 00:33:35.539 think people, I mean, I know people still in Minnesota 588 00:33:35.579 --> 00:33:37.700 talk about that today. that it was there, you know, 589 00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:40.180 people grew up with the AWA, maybe saw a world-class 590 00:33:40.220 --> 00:33:43.539 championship wrestling on Channel 29 in syndication out of Dallas, 591 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:48.799 and then WWF got in syndication. But in the tail 592 00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:53.500 end of the territory era, syndication took off, and promoters 593 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:56.039 found a way to make some money through syndication, and 594 00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:01.160 independent network channels regionally across the country saw value in 595 00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:03.789 stringing them together. And, you know, it was actually... It 596 00:34:03.809 --> 00:34:06.430 was kind of binge-watching before there was binge-watching, Mick. People 597 00:34:06.470 --> 00:34:08.469 would sit down for four or five hours and watch wrestling. 598 00:34:08.510 --> 00:34:11.590 And Saturday night at ringside was one of them. And 599 00:34:11.909 --> 00:34:18.860 someone who was instrumental in your wrestling block recently died. 600 00:34:18.980 --> 00:34:21.320 And I know that you mentioned you wanted to bring 601 00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.179 her up. And I'd like to take that opportunity for 602 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.820 you to talk about her and that era for you 603 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:26.480 and of wrestling. 604 00:34:27.219 --> 00:34:30.690 Well, I appreciate it. And you referenced Mary O'Neill. And she, 605 00:34:30.909 --> 00:34:35.329 at the time, was a producer at Channel 23 KTMA 606 00:34:35.369 --> 00:34:38.389 in Minneapolis. And she was the one who first contacted 607 00:34:38.429 --> 00:34:42.789 me via Joe Pedicino and Bonnie Blackstone and Paul Heyman 608 00:34:43.269 --> 00:34:45.349 when they were looking for somebody to host a Saturday 609 00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:48.619 night at Ringside Wrestling Block. Mary is the one that 610 00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:52.599 hired me. Just the greatest, greatest person in the world. 611 00:34:52.980 --> 00:34:59.579 Tremendous personality. And I've referenced that probably a couple, three 612 00:34:59.619 --> 00:35:01.940 months ago, out of the blue, I had not heard 613 00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:05.420 Heidner hair of Mary for, you know, since SNR went 614 00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:07.780 off the air, really. And all of a sudden, she 615 00:35:07.820 --> 00:35:10.739 contacted me and said, hey, this is Mary O'Neill. It's 616 00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:14.090 your old producer. And we kind of reconnected. I wanted 617 00:35:14.130 --> 00:35:17.670 to get together with her. Sadly, I won't have the chance. 618 00:35:18.369 --> 00:35:20.909 She passed away from a brain tumor just a couple 619 00:35:20.929 --> 00:35:25.409 of weeks ago. And

I remember the days at SNR. 620 00:35:25.429 --> 00:35:27.070 I would go in there on a Thursday to do 621 00:35:27.110 --> 00:35:30.280 the TV taping. I'd go into her office for all 622 00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:33.179 of about a five-minute meeting, and that was the relationship 623 00:35:33.260 --> 00:35:35.099 I had with her. She would just say, what are 624 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:37.059 you going to do today? And I would say, we're 625 00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:39.059 going to do this and this and this. We might 626 00:35:39.099 --> 00:35:41.809 have a studio angle. We might have an in-studio guest, 627 00:35:42.289 --> 00:35:45.409 whatever it might be. And she would say, yeah, go ahead. 628 00:35:46.289 --> 00:35:50.530 and never questioned the creativity that I would put into 629 00:35:50.550 --> 00:35:53.750 the show. She gave me creative license to do whatever 630 00:35:53.789 --> 00:35:55.230 I wanted to do. If it was going to be 631 00:35:55.269 --> 00:35:58.989 something outrageous, of course, you know, she might raise an eyebrow. 632 00:35:59.250 --> 00:36:01.429 But for the most part, Wade, for all of, you know, 633 00:36:01.449 --> 00:36:03.889 the four years that I did the show, I just 634 00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:05.630 went in there, told Mary what I was doing, and 635 00:36:05.670 --> 00:36:08.429 she said, go ahead, go do it. So I owe 636 00:36:08.590 --> 00:36:11.679 a lot to her for hiring me. They said that 637 00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:15.309 they had a lot of applicants that came down to 638 00:36:15.409 --> 00:36:18.789 audition for the role of the host of Saturday Night 639 00:36:18.849 --> 00:36:20.880 at Ringside. I don't know if that's true or not. 640 00:36:21.260 --> 00:36:25.260 Maybe a lot was three. I'm not sure. At any rate, 641 00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:27.380 I did get the gig, and Mary is just one 642 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:30.900 of those people. And SNR, I've said so many times, 643 00:36:30.940 --> 00:36:33.639 it was the greatest time of my wrestling career. No 644 00:36:33.699 --> 00:36:37.639 doubt about it. It was four years, Channel 23. You 645 00:36:37.699 --> 00:36:43.630 mentioned the back-to-back-to-back television shows. And we did have that block. 646 00:36:43.670 --> 00:36:46.230 At one time, I think it was almost a five-hour 647 00:36:46.289 --> 00:36:49.849 wrestling block on a Saturday night at the very end 648 00:36:49.889 --> 00:36:51.489 of the run, which is in March of 1992. I 649 00:36:51.829 --> 00:36:54.030 think we were down to about two and a half hours. 650 00:36:54.710 --> 00:36:59.889 But we had WCW worldwide. We had the World Class Show. 651 00:36:59.909 --> 00:37:05.300 And then, of course, morphing into Global. We had Powerful 652 00:37:05.590 --> 00:37:09.469 Women of Wrestling, which morphed into GLOW. We carried Windy 653 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:13.880 City Wrestling, Sammy DeCero's program. Eddie Sharkey's PWA. We had 654 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:21.119 pro wrestling this week with Joe Pedicino. So it was amazing. Again, 655 00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:26.590 probably one of the only, if not the only, wrestling 656 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.510 block in the country where the host had 30 minutes 657 00:37:30.550 --> 00:37:34.050 of airtime to go in between and do local tie-ins 658 00:37:34.610 --> 00:37:38.550 and put over the local promotions, do the angles for 659 00:37:38.570 --> 00:37:41.949 the local shows. That was kind of unheard of. And 660 00:37:41.969 --> 00:37:46.090 in many, many ways, it was very innovative. And I 661 00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:49.119 do have Mary O'Neill to thank. Again, I'm very sorry 662 00:37:49.139 --> 00:37:52.079 that I wasn't able to reconnect with her earlier, go 663 00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:54.199 out to dinner with her, reminisce, what have you. But 664 00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:56.860 she was just a great lady. And in the scheme 665 00:37:56.900 --> 00:37:59.719 of things in my career, very important. 666 00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:08.889 Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of 667 00:38:09.090 --> 00:38:11.610 all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch daily 668 00:38:11.650 --> 00:38:16.510 casts on Spotify? Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and 669 00:38:16.550 --> 00:38:19.590 subscribe to a VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day 670 00:38:19.630 --> 00:38:21.590 free trial, by the way, to kick the tires a 671 00:38:21.610 --> 00:38:23.840 bit and see if you like the service. And then 672 00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:26.199 sync it with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial-free 673 00:38:26.219 --> 00:38:28.860 versions of our free shows, like the Wade Keller post shows, 674 00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:31.719 the Wade Keller podcast flagship, our flashbacks, and also the 675 00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:35.409 PWTorch daily cast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined 676 00:38:35.429 --> 00:38:38.590 listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock 677 00:38:38.809 --> 00:38:41.670 all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, 678 00:38:41.690 --> 00:38:43.289 The Fix with Todd Martin that I host with Todd 679 00:38:43.309 --> 00:38:47.690 every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and 680 00:38:47.730 --> 00:38:51.289 an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and 681 00:38:51.329 --> 00:38:55.280 different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and 682 00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:58.900 search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify 683 00:38:59.059 --> 00:39:02.340 or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works, go 684 00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:08.239 to Patreon and start your seven-day free trial. Someone else 685 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.820 who I got a chance to, I think I'd met 686 00:39:11.860 --> 00:39:13.400 him previously, but I had a chance to see him, 687 00:39:13.420 --> 00:39:17.219 was at the Waterloo Iowa Hall of Fame banquet this 688

00:39:17.619 --> 00:39:21.469 past July. Stan Kowalski, given a special award at that 689 00:39:21.530 --> 00:39:26.849 banquet by George Shire. You have a chance to induct. 690 00:39:30.820 --> 00:39:32.860 Stan into the Minnesota Wrestling Hall of Fame coming up 691 00:39:33.449 --> 00:39:34.929 next weekend. Talk about that also. 692 00:39:38.289 --> 00:39:41.949 Talk about highlights in my life and in my wrestling career. 693 00:39:42.690 --> 00:39:45.449 This is one of them. Stan Kowalski and I, I mean, 694 00:39:45.530 --> 00:39:49.059 literally the first live event that I attended as a 695 00:39:49.099 --> 00:39:52.219 fan going back 56 years, I hate to say it. 696 00:39:53.059 --> 00:39:55.559 The heels were Stan Kowalski and Tiny Mills in the 697 00:39:55.639 --> 00:39:58.780 opposite corner, and they were larger than life to this 698 00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:01.639 kid at ringside trying to get Vern Gagne's autograph in 699 00:40:01.659 --> 00:40:04.739 the other corner. And Stan and I have been great, 700 00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:08.900 great friends. I've never felt that he got the just 701 00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:12.300 due that he had coming in professional wrestling as far 702 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:17.309 as being recognized for his contributions. 6,600 matches, he says, 703 00:40:17.389 --> 00:40:21.449 over the years. The very first AWA Tag Team Champion, 704 00:40:21.909 --> 00:40:24.550 as I said, along with Tiny Mills, had a run 705 00:40:24.650 --> 00:40:28.750 out east with Bruno Sammartino when he was wrestling as Crippler. 706 00:40:29.150 --> 00:40:34.880 Karl Kovacs for Vince McMahon Sr., But aside from that, Stan, 707 00:40:35.059 --> 00:40:38.860 outside the ring, Wade, it's well documented. He is just 708 00:40:38.929 --> 00:40:44.050 an absolute workhorse for charity, especially when it comes to 709 00:40:44.429 --> 00:40:48.469 the homeless veterans. Tireless, he worked for the United Way 710 00:40:48.550 --> 00:40:51.639 for many, many years. And Stan, as far as I 711 00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:56.900 can tell now, is the longest or the oldest still 712 00:40:56.980 --> 00:41:02.489 living main event caliber wrestler. If anybody is aware of 713 00:41:02.550 --> 00:41:06.050 somebody other than Stan who fits that bill, please let 714 00:41:06.070 --> 00:41:08.469 me know, because Stan just turned 90 years old. 715 00:41:08.699 --> 00:41:08.929 Wow. 716 00:41:09.500 --> 00:41:14.260 And virtually every one of his contemporaries has passed away. 717 00:41:14.780 --> 00:41:17.179 And again, of main event caliber, I don't think that 718 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:20.320 there's anybody older than Stan. You know, he's confined to 719 00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:22.550 a wheelchair right now. He slowed down a little bit, 720 00:41:22.610 --> 00:41:26.190 but he is still as sharp as a tack. saw 721 00:41:26.230 --> 00:41:29.429 him at the Steel Domain Wrestling Show this past Saturday evening, 722 00:41:29.630 --> 00:41:34.019 and it's such an honor for me to be able 723 00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:36.980 to do this, to call Stan a friend. And this 724 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:41.440 is actually going to be next Saturday, and it's going 725 00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:46.460 to be at the VFW in Fridley on Osborne Road. 726 00:41:46.539 --> 00:41:50.139 Stan is going to be inducted along with John Gregelko, 727 00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:54.309 who is a tremendous wrestling coach at Robbinsdale High School. 728 00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:58.530 and also Alan Rice, a great wrestler, and of course 729 00:41:58.570 --> 00:42:03.750 the 1972 United States Greco-Roman wrestling coach who was instrumental 730 00:42:03.889 --> 00:42:09.389 in getting Cosmo Vaziri into the United States and getting 731 00:42:09.429 --> 00:42:12.929 him involved. So it's a great night, and I believe 732 00:42:12.969 --> 00:42:17.409 it is a 7 o'clock start. And again, that's next 733 00:42:17.449 --> 00:42:19.179 Saturday evening, October 1st. 734 00:42:19.739 --> 00:42:22.659 Now, what's crazy is we talk about all these people that, 735 00:42:23.090 --> 00:42:25.380 you know, you've been able to cross paths with and, 736 00:42:25.570 --> 00:42:29.000 and Stan Kowalski being there for him and, uh, cauliflower rally, 737 00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:33.019 Bobby Heenan, a big part of your history. Also, uh, 738 00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:35.320 talk about what's coming up, uh, the heavy on wrestling 739 00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:37.920 show this weekend, uh, Bobby Heenan and a friend of 740 00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:41.440 this show, uh, Zeb Coulter, Dutch Mantel was on last 741 00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:44.119 month with us. Uh, it was a great guest. Um, 742 00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:48.960 really entertaining. Um, it just has that, um, I don't care. 743 00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:54.860 Bluntness mixed with humor, uh, Mixed with intelligence, mixed with 744 00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:58.800 vast knowledge and experience that it's just the perfect combination 745 00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:00.869 for what I do. I love guests like him, and 746 00:43:01.150 --> 00:43:05.050 I encourage people who miss that show to go to PWTorchLivecast.com, 747 00:43:05.090 --> 00:43:08.110 click on the interview category, and download or stream the 748 00:43:08.150 --> 00:43:11.250 Dutchman Tells Up Coulter interview. But, Mick, yeah, talk about 749 00:43:11.269 --> 00:43:13.650 the Heavy On Wrestling show in Superior, Wisconsin this weekend. 750 00:43:13.670 --> 00:43:15.429 Some people listening might not know about the show, but 751 00:43:15.469 --> 00:43:16.280 might be driving distance. 752 00:43:18.309 --> 00:43:21.710 Heavy on Wrestling, they typically will run one show a year, 753 00:43:21.769 --> 00:43:24.710 maybe every couple of years, and they invariably bring in 754 00:43:25.349 --> 00:43:28.179 some of the legends. They had Roddy Piper, Booker T 755 00:43:28.219 --> 00:43:31.420 a couple of years ago, Jake the Snake Roberts. This 756 00:43:31.480 -->

00:43:35.139 time out, the event is at the Westman Arena, and 757 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:38.099 Dave Sabick and John Wolford for Heavy on Wrestling are 758 00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:43.460 putting on a great show. Bobby Heenan is coming in 759 00:43:43.940 --> 00:43:46.519 and he is also going to be inducted he's the 760 00:43:46.579 --> 00:43:50.599 first member of the Minnesota Wrestling Hall of Fame Wall 761 00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:54.090 of Fame and Bobby will be there you mentioned Zeb 762 00:43:54.170 --> 00:43:57.769 Coulter Christy Hemme is going to be there Simon Dean 763 00:43:58.690 --> 00:44:03.250 from the old WWE Ken Anderson is going to be 764 00:44:03.269 --> 00:44:06.579 there as well Christy Hemme is going to be there 765 00:44:07.219 --> 00:44:11.860 Brooklyn Brawler Steve Lombardi They're bringing in the Brooklyn Brawler 766 00:44:11.900 --> 00:44:14.539 for this event. And it's just going to be a 767 00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:17.760 great night. And I enjoy working with the Heavy on 768 00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:21.849 Wrestling promotion. They always treat me very well. Polish Joe Chupik, 769 00:44:21.889 --> 00:44:27.030 who used to work for Vern Gagne's AWA, longtime television producer, 770 00:44:27.150 --> 00:44:30.389 is now involved with Heavy as well. So very much 771 00:44:30.429 --> 00:44:33.909 looking forward to that this coming Saturday. And Bobby Heenan, 772 00:44:34.510 --> 00:44:39.940 God bless him. You know, his physical problems are... well-known. 773 00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:43.539 He doesn't look to be the Bobby Heenan of old. 774 00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:48.150 There's no question about it. Pretty much can't speak, can't communicate, 775 00:44:49.090 --> 00:44:54.449 but he gets out there. He makes these events. He 776 00:44:54.550 --> 00:44:58.719 signs autographs. He poses for pictures. God love him. When 777 00:44:58.739 --> 00:45:02.659 they introduced him at Cauliflower Alley last April, he gave 778 00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:07.019 the Bobby Heenan one-finger salute to everybody. He hasn't lost 779 00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:11.599 his edge, you see the twinkle in his eye, and 780 00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:14.260 with everything that he's been through to have the guts, 781 00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:17.480 the determination, the courage to get out there and attend 782 00:45:17.500 --> 00:45:21.139 these fan festivals and these events is just great, and 783 00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:23.619 I'm so looking forward to seeing him as well. 784 00:45:24.659 --> 00:45:27.199 The audience of one for his witticisms in his own mind, 785 00:45:27.219 --> 00:45:30.110 and you say he can't communicate them now, you know 786 00:45:30.250 --> 00:45:34.329 that those thoughts and those one-liners are still up there 787 00:45:34.809 --> 00:45:36.889 in his head, and he has to communicate them, and 788 00:45:37.340 --> 00:45:39.179 in different ways, like you say, the twinkle in the 789 00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:41.880 eye and the body language. And it's a different for some, 790 00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:44.940 I mean, it's, it's, it's fascinating. And yeah, I mean, it's, 791 00:45:45.059 --> 00:45:46.920 it's sad in a way, but I don't think he's 792 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:51.389 looking for people's pity. He he's, he's in, it brought 793 00:45:51.489 --> 00:45:55.530 so much enjoyment and entertainment to people's lives. And now he's, 794 00:45:55.670 --> 00:45:58.590 he's living in a different way where he can't use 795 00:45:58.610 --> 00:46:01.989 that acerbic wit to get that, that feedback that he 796 00:46:02.030 --> 00:46:05.340 thrived on. And I'm sure it's, it's been, life-changing for 797 00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:07.219 him in certain ways in terms of how he looks 798 00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:11.099 at the world and interacts with it. And I back 799 00:46:11.139 --> 00:46:14.809 your thoughts. Rather than fading away because he doesn't look 800 00:46:14.829 --> 00:46:17.670 like Bobby used to look and he can't talk and 801 00:46:18.210 --> 00:46:20.289 people might come up and look at him in a 802 00:46:20.369 --> 00:46:23.449 certain way that maybe 25 years ago he would not 803 00:46:23.489 --> 00:46:27.460 have wanted, he's decided none of that is worth trading. 804 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:31.119 None of that should deter me from getting out there 805 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:37.710 and being public and interacting with fans who are still 806 00:46:37.730 --> 00:46:40.469 through WWE Network and YouTube, a whole new generation of 807 00:46:40.489 --> 00:46:44.119 people seeing his greatest work. Mick, do you have a 808 00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:48.199 favorite Bobby Heenan moment or promo, or maybe two or 809 00:46:48.219 --> 00:46:50.679 three that come to mind when I ask that question? 810 00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:53.920 And I want to stress, there are people who are 811 00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:56.059 fans of Bobby Heenan because of what he did in 812 00:46:56.079 --> 00:47:00.969 the WWF with Gorilla Monsoon in primetime wrestling, or some 813 00:47:01.010 --> 00:47:02.929 of the stuff that he did maybe in Monday Nitro, 814 00:47:02.949 --> 00:47:04.590 which I don't think was his best work, but he's 815 00:47:04.650 --> 00:47:09.519 still very talented, and it came through. The AWA era 816 00:47:09.940 --> 00:47:14.199 of Bobby Heenan is so far and away better than 817 00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:16.679 the really good work he did in the WWF and 818 00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:19.400 the moments that he had and the remnants of it 819 00:47:19.420 --> 00:47:22.579 that he had in Nitro. If the AWA era didn't exist, 820 00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:24.239 we'd still talk about Bobby as one of the all-time 821 00:47:24.260 --> 00:47:28.409 great wrestling acts, but it gets elevated to the very, 822 00:47:28.510 --> 00:47:32.530 very top, top tier of among people who spoke in 823 00:47:32.550 --> 00:47:35.630 the business, sold tickets, got over their opponents, got over 824 00:47:35.670 --> 00:47:39.210 who

they managed. Bobby is still referred to by anybody 825 00:47:39.250 --> 00:47:42.309 with any knowledge of wrestling as defining what made a 826 00:47:42.349 --> 00:47:46.639 great wrestling manager. And that best work, the vast majority 827 00:47:46.659 --> 00:47:48.579 of it, was in the AWA. 828 00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:54.619 You know, Jim Brunzel says, and I completely agree with him, 829 00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:59.039 Bobby Heenan may very well have been the best all-around 830 00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:03.090 performer in wrestling in the modern era. And I'm not 831 00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:05.070 just talking about a guy who could, you know, his 832 00:48:05.130 --> 00:48:08.010 managerial skills. I'm talking about a guy who could go 833 00:48:08.170 --> 00:48:12.530 in and wrestle and sell and bump his ass off 834 00:48:12.949 --> 00:48:16.570 for people. He had everything. And the gift of gab, 835 00:48:17.349 --> 00:48:21.099 nobody's ever been better than Bobby Heenan. 836 00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:25.409 Nobody could run away from a babyface and stumble... He 837 00:48:25.469 --> 00:48:29.260 was on ice without ice skates better than Bobby Heenan. 838 00:48:29.570 --> 00:48:31.519 You can just pick out a list of 12 things 839 00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:33.699 he did better than anybody else that isn't just his 840 00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:36.019 mic work, which is what he's known for, because that's 841 00:48:36.179 --> 00:48:39.260 the core of what he did in the WBF and Nitro. 842 00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:41.539 That's almost all he did, because he had neck problems, 843 00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:45.340 and that was his role. I'm so glad you brought 844 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:46.909 that up, because it was the bum-taking. It was the 845 00:48:46.989 --> 00:48:49.750 running away from Greg Gagne. It was wearing a weasel 846 00:48:49.789 --> 00:48:51.690 suit and selling it. It was the way he walked 847 00:48:51.710 --> 00:48:54.949 to the rings. and stood with Nick Bockwinkle during ring introductions, 848 00:48:55.139 --> 00:49:01.949 every step, body language, facial twitch was calculated, but it 849 00:49:02.010 --> 00:49:03.889 came natural to him, but it added to the moment. 850 00:49:04.250 --> 00:49:06.010 And so I think you're really right to point that out. 851 00:49:06.050 --> 00:49:08.090 It wasn't just his promos or color commentary. 852 00:49:10.269 --> 00:49:12.710 It's really sad in a way, and you mentioned it, Wade, 853 00:49:12.750 --> 00:49:15.809 that the people, the modern day wrestling fan, their only 854 00:49:15.889 --> 00:49:19.750 exposure to Bobby Heenan may have been, well, it's 30 855 00:49:19.750 --> 00:49:23.260 years already, or 25 years, where he was doing commentary, 856 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:25.539 and he was great at that. But the AWA, and 857 00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:28.920 of course, you can add the WWA days with Dick 858 00:49:28.940 --> 00:49:32.619 the Bruiser. There was, Ed, you have to go to 859 00:49:32.659 --> 00:49:36.619 YouTube and see just how really spectacular this guy was. 860 00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:39.760 And of course, he juiced like nobody's business over and 861 00:49:39.860 --> 00:49:44.110 over again. What you pointed out about him running away 862 00:49:44.170 --> 00:49:47.170 from the heel or from the baby face is so 863 00:49:47.230 --> 00:49:49.809 spot on, whether it was in the ring where he'd 864 00:49:49.829 --> 00:49:52.309 be backing up and slip and the baby face would 865 00:49:52.349 --> 00:49:55.119 catch him or around the ring on the floor or 866 00:49:55.139 --> 00:49:58.360 what have you. He knew exactly what to do. That 867 00:49:58.449 --> 00:50:00.150 bump that he would take when he was whipped into 868 00:50:00.190 --> 00:50:02.909 the turnbuckle, and he'd kind of do the Ric Flair 869 00:50:02.969 --> 00:50:05.119 but not hold on to anything and go up and 870 00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:09.739 over the turnbuckle onto the floor. the little nuances where 871 00:50:09.780 --> 00:50:12.380 he would just look at the crowd and he would 872 00:50:12.980 --> 00:50:16.960 mouth nothing. I mean, I sat at ringside taking pictures sometime, 873 00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:19.420 and I listened carefully to see what it was that 874 00:50:19.460 --> 00:50:21.900 Bobby Heener was saying to the fans, what he would 875 00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:23.989 look up at the balcony and he would mouth something. 876 00:50:24.210 --> 00:50:27.469 He was saying absolutely nothing. He was just moving his mouth, 877 00:50:27.929 --> 00:50:32.829 and that's all it took to just get everybody completely 878 00:50:32.849 --> 00:50:37.800 and totally irate And another thing about Bobby Heenan, and 879 00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:42.019 I talk to this about the managers that still work today, 880 00:50:43.179 --> 00:50:46.340 Bobby may have interfered at the end of a match, 881 00:50:47.059 --> 00:50:51.539 but during the match itself, you very rarely saw Bobby 882 00:50:51.579 --> 00:50:55.670 Heenan choke somebody on the ropes. You never saw that. 883 00:50:56.150 --> 00:50:58.809 All you saw was Bobby Heenan either standing at ringside 884 00:50:59.170 --> 00:51:01.519 or sitting on a chair and And when the guy 885 00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:03.599 that he had in the ring, whether it's Ray Stevens, 886 00:51:03.619 --> 00:51:07.599 Nick Bockwinkle, Bobby Duncombe, Jack Lanza, he would get up 887 00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:10.820 from his chair and maybe throw a towel if something 888 00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:14.699 happened to one of his wrestlers. It was all such 889 00:51:14.929 --> 00:51:17.889 animation to make sure that the guy up in Section 890 00:51:17.889 --> 00:51:23.010 300 knew exactly the frustration and the angst that Bobby 891 00:51:23.050 --> 00:51:27.030 Heenan was going through. You ask me, is there a 892 00:51:27.150 --> 00:51:32.909 Bobby Heenan moment specifically? I don't think so. I don't 893 00:51:32.949 --> 00:51:37.119 think that I can actually pick out

one moment where 894 00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:42.460 I say, ah, that's the Bobby Heenan. Here's an interesting thing. 895 00:51:42.539 --> 00:51:45.239 With all the ranting and raving promos that he did, 896 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:49.210 to me, one of the best promos Bobby Heenan ever did, 897 00:51:49.230 --> 00:51:51.090 and I don't know if it's on YouTube or not, 898 00:51:51.670 --> 00:51:54.690 was when Nick Bockwinkle lost the title to Otto Vance 899 00:51:55.190 --> 00:51:59.880 in St. Paul in 1982. And Bobby Heenan, after the 900 00:51:59.900 --> 00:52:02.679 match was over, they taped an interview with Gene Okerlund 901 00:52:03.070 --> 00:52:06.369 and Bobby Heenan back in the locker room. And Bobby 902 00:52:06.409 --> 00:52:10.030 gave a serious interview about the disappointment and how just 903 00:52:10.230 --> 00:52:14.789 one simple move, a reversal by Otto Vance, has basically 904 00:52:14.849 --> 00:52:17.849 destroyed everything that they've worked and strived for all their 905 00:52:17.889 --> 00:52:22.010 lives and what have you. And it was magnificent. It 906 00:52:22.050 --> 00:52:26.610 was absolutely magnificent. And it was kind of a complete 907 00:52:26.610 --> 00:52:30.550 180 from either the ranting and raving promos about the Crusher. 908 00:52:30.949 --> 00:52:33.369 Or what I really loved was when he would go 909 00:52:33.429 --> 00:52:36.369 out and make fun of somebody like Lorenz Susi, who 910 00:52:36.389 --> 00:52:39.909 was an AWA rookie back in the 1980s. And Bobby 911 00:52:39.929 --> 00:52:43.130 spent five minutes going after him because his name was silly. 912 00:52:43.610 --> 00:52:46.639 Or he would call Rick Martel the French fly. Or 913 00:52:46.699 --> 00:52:49.400 he would talk about how you beat Mad Dog with Sean. 914 00:52:49.699 --> 00:52:51.260 You put the boots to him and you knock his 915 00:52:51.300 --> 00:52:53.639 teeth out. And then Bobby would add both of them. 916 00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:57.210 So I mean, it just in so many ways, he 917 00:52:57.250 --> 00:53:01.349 was so great. And I remember in 2011 down in Atlanta, 918 00:53:02.070 --> 00:53:04.630 Nick Bockwinkle was there and Bobby was going to appear 919 00:53:04.670 --> 00:53:08.159 as well. And Bobby hadn't shown up yet. Nick asked 920 00:53:08.199 --> 00:53:10.519 me if I had seen him and I said no. 921 00:53:11.699 --> 00:53:14.159 And Nick got very teary-eyed because it was at that 922 00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:18.090 point Bobby was really starting to go downhill after his 923 00:53:18.130 --> 00:53:20.590 cancer surgery, and they removed part of his jaw and 924 00:53:20.630 --> 00:53:23.750 what have you. And Nick said, how ironic is it 925 00:53:23.769 --> 00:53:26.630 that a guy like Bobby Heenan, who made his living 926 00:53:27.389 --> 00:53:30.409 and entertained so many people by his words and by 927 00:53:30.469 --> 00:53:34.230 his mouth, is suffering this kind of a malady, the 928 00:53:34.269 --> 00:53:36.150 throat cancer. I'll never forget that. 929 00:53:36.929 --> 00:53:37.469 Absolutely. 930 00:53:40.820 --> 00:53:43.820 Searching for more great pro wrestling talk? Then join me, 931 00:53:43.900 --> 00:53:47.469 Jason Powell, host of the three-weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. 932 00:53:47.949 --> 00:53:50.130 Each week, you'll hear the latest news and analysis from 933 00:53:50.170 --> 00:53:52.849 me and my team at ProWrestling.net, along with other pro 934 00:53:52.869 --> 00:53:56.329 wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast features 935 00:53:56.389 --> 00:53:59.750 long-form interviews with notable names in the pro wrestling industry. 936 00:54:00.010 --> 00:54:03.849 Subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and all your favorite secondary apps, 937 00:54:04.349 --> 00:54:09.869 or visit us directly at PWBoom.com. Once again, that's PWBoom.com. 938 00:54:15.110 --> 00:54:18.909 Mick, there's so many of you. I love, like, Kevin 939 00:54:18.929 --> 00:54:23.190 Nash was on the show last Thursday. And he just 940 00:54:23.210 --> 00:54:25.530 talked about, yeah, he's almost every weekend. He's doing autograph shows. 941 00:54:25.570 --> 00:54:29.239 He's getting out there. He's still doing stuff. There's all this, 942 00:54:29.500 --> 00:54:33.400 you know, people get very focused on NXT TakeOver, WrestleMania, 943 00:54:34.260 --> 00:54:37.360 ROH pay-per-views, these higher profile events, obviously Raw, SmackDown, and 944 00:54:37.380 --> 00:54:41.190 all that. There's this whole other world going on where 945 00:54:41.739 --> 00:54:44.340 This industry, and I think people who don't follow the 946 00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:47.880 pro wrestling industry at all would be surprised at how 947 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:52.679 much is just going on every weekend in almost everywhere 948 00:54:52.699 --> 00:54:55.599 around the country. And these people who become famous and 949 00:54:55.659 --> 00:54:58.800 touch people or people feel a connection and a bond 950 00:54:58.820 --> 00:55:02.309 by watching them on television want to go see them 951 00:55:02.389 --> 00:55:06.829 make appearances. And there's your schedule, Kevin Nash's schedule, Bobby 952 00:55:06.869 --> 00:55:09.090 Heenan's schedule, Dutch Mantell and what he's doing now that 953 00:55:09.110 --> 00:55:12.000 he's out of WWE. The new trend of one-man shows. 954 00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:14.719 All of this stuff is going on. You're going to 955 00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:17.679 be Thanksgiving weekend, I believe it is. You're going to 956 00:55:17.699 --> 00:55:20.880 be involved in a relaunch of the IWA in the Pennsylvania, 957 00:55:20.900 --> 00:55:23.219 New Jersey area. Talk about that a little bit more also. 958 00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:26.820 Another thing that came out of the blue, and that's 959 00:55:26.929 --> 00:55:28.429 kind of the way it goes for me, Wade, is 960 00:55:28.469 --> 00:55:30.389 all of a sudden there'll be, you know, 15, 20 961 00:55:30.389 -->

00:55:32.269 years I don't hear from anybody, and then all of 962 00:55:32.329 --> 00:55:36.210 a sudden the phone rings. But years ago, I worked 963 00:55:36.230 --> 00:55:38.349 with Rob Russin, who, of course, at one time worked 964 00:55:38.369 --> 00:55:41.860 for the AWA and the Vern Gagne office. But Rob 965 00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:46.719 had run the IWA, the International Wrestling Association, promotion. He's 966 00:55:46.739 --> 00:55:50.039 the one that brought me to that infamous Australia trip 967 00:55:50.099 --> 00:55:50.440 back in 1991. 968 00:55:50.420 --> 00:55:50.659 Oh, yeah. 969 00:55:50.699 --> 00:55:55.750 Rob ran it. You know, he ran consistently kind of 970 00:55:55.769 --> 00:55:58.829 on the eastern seaboard, and I believe I worked with 971 00:55:58.929 --> 00:56:02.210 Rob maybe one time in the last 10, 12 years. 972 00:56:02.269 --> 00:56:06.179 We did something in Louisiana. It's funny, one of the 973 00:56:06.219 --> 00:56:09.000 first shows that he brought me in was for Treasure 974 00:56:09.219 --> 00:56:12.280 Island in Florida. I want to say back in 1990, 975 00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:16.139 I did some TV with Diamond Dallas Page. And what 976 00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:18.469 is interesting about that, we got in the ring to 977 00:56:18.510 --> 00:56:20.750 do the show open. And again, this is 1990 television. 978 00:56:21.630 --> 00:56:27.349 People are chanting pro wrestling torch, pro wrestling torch at 979 00:56:27.449 --> 00:56:31.250 Treasure Island down at, yes. And I think, my God, 980 00:56:31.289 --> 00:56:33.989 you know, I don't even know. I think I was 981 00:56:34.030 --> 00:56:37.230 doing columns for you back then, but I'm thinking Wade 982 00:56:37.269 --> 00:56:39.309 is haunting me, you know, even on the other side 983 00:56:39.329 --> 00:56:44.130 of the country. But Rob, and actually there's a couple 984 00:56:44.170 --> 00:56:46.869 other people. The man that contacted me, a gentleman by 985 00:56:46.909 --> 00:56:51.000 the name of Dewey Welch, was a Facebook friend. I 986 00:56:51.019 --> 00:56:53.840 got a contact message from him about three weeks ago, 987 00:56:53.860 --> 00:56:56.739 and he said, we're relaunching the IWA. We're going to 988 00:56:56.780 --> 00:57:02.139 start taping Thanksgiving weekend. Rob says he wants you to 989 00:57:02.179 --> 00:57:05.130 be the play-by-play guy. Last time I did this, again, 990 00:57:05.170 --> 00:57:08.190 probably 10, 12 years ago, I did commentary with Stan Lane, 991 00:57:08.949 --> 00:57:13.030 sweet Stan Lane of the Midnight Express. And boom, there 992 00:57:13.050 --> 00:57:15.630 it is again. They're relaunching. I believe they have Ethan 993 00:57:15.650 --> 00:57:18.869 Carter III on this show. They're bringing him in. A 994 00:57:19.289 --> 00:57:24.530 lot of new independent wrestling talent. Pat Tanaka. I see 995 00:57:24.570 --> 00:57:27.349 Pat has advertised for this show. I don't know if 996 00:57:27.389 --> 00:57:28.989 he's going to wrestle or if he's going to come 997 00:57:29.070 --> 00:57:30.989 out there and sell popcorn or what he's going to 998 00:57:31.030 --> 00:57:34.389 do at this point. But I'm just very excited about it. 999 00:57:34.530 --> 00:57:37.260 I don't know all the details yet. As far as 1000 00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:39.260 where they're going to go from there, I know they 1001 00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:42.760 have tapings scheduled until the first part of the year 1002 00:57:42.940 --> 00:57:45.719 or into the first quarter of the year. So I'm 1003 00:57:45.739 --> 00:57:49.179 very excited about it and always enjoyed working with Rob Russum. 1004 00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:51.659 And I'm very honored when somebody sends you a message 1005 00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:54.159 and says, you're the guy that we want. It's still 1006 00:57:54.219 --> 00:57:56.010 very gratifying after all this time. 1007 00:57:57.090 --> 00:57:58.849 Mick, I know you've got to run in just a 1008 00:57:58.869 --> 00:58:01.289 couple minutes, so I'm going to forego taking calls because 1009 00:58:01.309 --> 00:58:02.869 I've got a couple more questions I want to ask you. 1010 00:58:03.530 --> 00:58:06.739 You follow the current wrestling scene. Are you still watching 1011 00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:09.019 Raw and SmackDown pretty regularly? 1012 00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:12.760 For the most part, I am, yeah. I mean, there 1013 00:58:12.800 --> 00:58:15.050 will be the times when I will DVR it and 1014 00:58:15.769 --> 00:58:18.769 kind of fast-forward through the garbage the next day, but 1015 00:58:18.809 --> 00:58:21.190 I stay pretty closely to it, yes. 1016 00:58:21.570 --> 00:58:27.860 Sure, and with the roster split, well, first, what have 1017 00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:29.980 you thought, what did you think of the concept of 1018 00:58:30.059 --> 00:58:34.269 splitting the roster again? and how do you think it's 1019 00:58:34.309 --> 00:58:37.070 both helped and hurt the product? For you, as a viewer, 1020 00:58:37.090 --> 00:58:39.099 you're still immersed in wrestling, you still do a lot 1021 00:58:39.139 --> 00:58:40.400 with it, you've seen a lot of it, but you're 1022 00:58:40.420 --> 00:58:42.619 also a fan, and the product needs to appeal to 1023 00:58:42.659 --> 00:58:44.860 you to make it worth your effort to watch that 1024 00:58:44.900 --> 00:58:47.340 instead of the many, many other choices out there. How 1025 00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:49.090 are they doing in that regard for just you as 1026 00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:49.510 a fan? 1027 00:58:51.550 --> 00:58:53.469 For me as a fan, here's what I would say, Wade. 1028 00:58:53.590 --> 00:58:57.369 I've always been a fan of one world champion, one 1029 00:58:57.469 --> 00:59:01.119 tag team champion. And I think, first of all, I... 1030 00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:04.639 I've never been a big fan of the brand split 1031 00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:09.070 only because wrestling fans know this is all one company. 1032 00:59:10.079 -->

00:59:13.460 They know what it's all about. I just don't get 1033 00:59:13.500 --> 00:59:20.809 excited about a Raw SmackDown split. I don't like all 1034 00:59:20.849 --> 00:59:24.570 the championships that were created because of a split. I 1035 00:59:24.630 --> 00:59:28.199 just think it gets oversaturated. And I'm just not all 1036 00:59:28.219 --> 00:59:31.949 that excited about it. I understand in theory what they're 1037 00:59:31.989 --> 00:59:36.010 trying to do, but for me personally, it doesn't work. 1038 00:59:36.150 --> 00:59:40.269 I would just assume, you know, you have one champion, 1039 00:59:40.289 --> 00:59:43.489 you have one tag team champion, maybe international champion or whatever, 1040 00:59:43.989 --> 00:59:46.429 and just all one company and not a brand split. 1041 00:59:46.750 --> 00:59:47.289 That's just me. 1042 00:59:48.730 --> 00:59:51.730 Part of the roster split, the effect of the roster split, 1043 00:59:51.949 --> 00:59:54.909 one of the positives is they don't overuse Kevin Owens 1044 00:59:54.969 --> 00:59:56.869 twice a week, Monday and Tuesday or Monday and Thursday. 1045 00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:02.940 and it's forcing them to dig deeper on the roster 1046 01:00:03.079 --> 01:00:05.679 and take advantage of some of the talent that might 1047 01:00:05.699 --> 01:00:10.670 have been being overlooked. I think there's a mixed result 1048 01:00:10.690 --> 01:00:13.030 so far. I like that there's less exposure of the 1049 01:00:13.050 --> 01:00:16.030 top guys, because I think it makes seeing Seth Rollins 1050 01:00:16.050 --> 01:00:17.710 more novel when you don't see him twice a week. 1051 01:00:18.349 --> 01:00:20.530 It slows down the book a little bit, which was needed. 1052 01:00:20.570 --> 01:00:22.130 So there's a lot of positives. I'm with you on 1053 01:00:22.659 --> 01:00:24.920 There being too many championships, I think it's almost a 1054 01:00:24.980 --> 01:00:27.440 necessary evil to go along with the positives that come 1055 01:00:27.460 --> 01:00:30.860 with a roster split. That's why it's a fascinating conversation 1056 01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:36.030 because it's not entirely dissimilar to Major League Baseball, the 1057 01:00:36.050 --> 01:00:39.929 American League and the National League. People want to see 1058 01:00:40.329 --> 01:00:43.170 all the great players in their stadium, but how much 1059 01:00:43.269 --> 01:00:46.730 mixing can there be? Part of the problem is watering 1060 01:00:46.769 --> 01:00:50.860 down the product with wrestlers people don't care about or 1061 01:00:50.900 --> 01:00:53.510 who aren't ready. We've seen some of that, too. with 1062 01:00:53.550 --> 01:00:55.969 Darren Young, Bob Backlund, Titus O'Neill. There's been some down 1063 01:00:56.010 --> 01:01:01.050 moments on that. We see them try to rehabilitate Jack Swagger. 1064 01:01:01.130 --> 01:01:02.949 But we've seen some bright sides. I don't think this 1065 01:01:02.969 --> 01:01:05.250 Heath Slater storyline, that's been a blast. It's been a 1066 01:01:05.289 --> 01:01:11.159 riot with Rhino, who's had this rebirth. I mean, Rhino's 1067 01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:14.519 hilarious playing off of Heath Rider with his dry approach 1068 01:01:14.539 --> 01:01:19.760 to things. There was going to be good and bad 1069 01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:23.949 with this either way, but having Alberto Dario leave and 1070 01:01:23.989 --> 01:01:27.289 having Finn Balor get injured, it's some unexpected twists have 1071 01:01:27.309 --> 01:01:30.650 come up. Is there something positive that you think has 1072 01:01:30.730 --> 01:01:33.019 come out of this, either on the mid-card or the 1073 01:01:33.059 --> 01:01:35.760 main event so far, where you go, all right, here's 1074 01:01:35.780 --> 01:01:37.880 something that maybe would not have happened, or here's somebody 1075 01:01:37.940 --> 01:01:40.599 getting more attention than they would have otherwise? 1076 01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:45.340 I think it's exactly what you said. I think you 1077 01:01:45.380 --> 01:01:48.880 don't get so top-heavy into pushing the same guys over 1078 01:01:48.920 --> 01:01:50.949 and over again, and you get a look at some 1079 01:01:51.010 --> 01:01:53.659 of the other guys. And some of the guys are 1080 01:01:53.780 --> 01:01:56.880 elevated to the top that normally wouldn't be, you know, 1081 01:01:57.780 --> 01:02:01.980 if you just have one brand. Flip side of that is, 1082 01:02:02.039 --> 01:02:05.219 like you said, too, now if you're looking for filler 1083 01:02:05.260 --> 01:02:07.409 all of a sudden, if you're kind of scrambling, and 1084 01:02:07.789 --> 01:02:12.829 Jack Swagger being reinvented for the 800th time just doesn't 1085 01:02:12.849 --> 01:02:14.570 work for me. Either you're going to do something with 1086 01:02:14.610 --> 01:02:16.670 him or you're not. I agree with you completely about 1087 01:02:16.730 --> 01:02:19.829 Heath Slater. It gave him a chance to shine. The 1088 01:02:19.869 --> 01:02:22.909 flip side of that, again, is you go to the 1089 01:02:22.969 --> 01:02:27.059 other side, and that Darren Young, Bob Backlund thing just farted. 1090 01:02:27.579 --> 01:02:31.880 So they're good and bad to the brand split. I'll 1091 01:02:31.900 --> 01:02:34.559 tell you what I don't like, and I think even 1092 01:02:34.619 --> 01:02:39.760 an average wrestling fan, when Stephanie McMahon and Mick Foley 1093 01:02:39.960 --> 01:02:44.489 and then you get Daniel Bryan out there, when they're 1094 01:02:44.510 --> 01:02:47.500 talking about We're going to beat SmackDown. We're going to 1095 01:02:47.539 --> 01:02:50.110 beat raw. Our ratings are going to go up. Their 1096 01:02:50.139 --> 01:02:53.309 ratings are going to go down. I don't know. I'm 1097 01:02:53.329 --> 01:02:55.269 sitting there and I'm listening to that way. And I think, 1098 01:02:55.309 --> 01:02:58.010 you know what? I know you're all the same company, 1099 01:02:58.650 --> 01:03:03.239

you know, even, even the most, whatever wrestling fan knows 1100 01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:06.780 you're not, you're, you're all the same company and yeah, 1101 01:03:06.820 --> 01:03:10.179 there's a rivalry, but do you really want SmackDown ratings 1102 01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:14.590 to suffer? Do you really want Raw's ratings to suffer? 1103 01:03:14.690 --> 01:03:17.719 If you do well on SmackDown and Raw's not doing 1104 01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:20.940 very well, is that good for the company? So I 1105 01:03:20.980 --> 01:03:23.780 think that's kind of insulting to the intelligence a little bit, 1106 01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:25.179 if you understand what I'm saying. 1107 01:03:25.539 --> 01:03:28.340 I totally do. And I'm with you. I think trying 1108 01:03:28.380 --> 01:03:31.199 to create this perception that within WWE people are rooting 1109 01:03:31.239 --> 01:03:36.769 against a division under WWE's banner, it's not worth doing. 1110 01:03:36.789 --> 01:03:40.179 And there's enough value to the roster split If you 1111 01:03:40.219 --> 01:03:42.260 don't do that, to still make it worth doing. But 1112 01:03:42.300 --> 01:03:43.760 you have to do a lot of things well, and 1113 01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:45.699 there's going to inherently be some negatives that come with it. 1114 01:03:45.800 --> 01:03:48.599 I mean, if you don't do the roster split, there's negatives. 1115 01:03:48.780 --> 01:03:51.099 If you do the roster split, there's negatives. The question is, 1116 01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:52.920 how do they all weigh out, and do they take 1117 01:03:53.079 --> 01:04:01.639 full advantage of the potential benefits? You can unlock our 1118 01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:06.699 commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch in 1119 01:04:06.900 --> 01:04:09.139 Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that says 1120 01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:11.610 PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some free 1121 01:04:11.630 --> 01:04:15.130 samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the entire 1122 01:04:15.190 --> 01:04:18.750 VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions of 1123 01:04:18.769 --> 01:04:22.380 the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts and 1124 01:04:22.420 --> 01:04:25.059 clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate your 1125 01:04:25.099 --> 01:04:27.360 three-day free trial. And after that, you can become a 1126 01:04:27.500 --> 01:04:30.619 VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. Enjoy 1127 01:04:30.659 --> 01:04:34.179 a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and unlock 1128 01:04:34.340 --> 01:04:37.530 all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the Wade 1129 01:04:37.550 --> 01:04:40.690 Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the fix 1130 01:04:40.869 --> 01:04:43.090 that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety of 1131 01:04:43.170 --> 01:04:47.110 other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple Podcast

app. 1132 01:04:49.090 --> 01:04:51.429 Last topic for you, if you have two more minutes, Mick, 1133 01:04:51.449 --> 01:04:52.449 or do you have to run right now? 1134 01:04:52.469 --> 01:04:53.079 Sure. Okay. 1135 01:04:53.320 --> 01:04:53.500 Okay. 1136 01:04:54.659 --> 01:04:55.400 No, absolutely. 1137 01:04:55.420 --> 01:05:23.579 No, absolutely. who are like, I just want to express 1138 01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:26.030 that I like this guy and he deserves a push. 1139 01:05:26.489 --> 01:05:28.630 I didn't think he'd ever stand in the ring with 1140 01:05:28.789 --> 01:05:32.289 any kind of major championship in WWE, and I want 1141 01:05:32.309 --> 01:05:34.349 to send a message to management that no matter how 1142 01:05:34.409 --> 01:05:36.530 he got this, even though he's a heel, and even 1143 01:05:36.550 --> 01:05:39.300 though basically Triple H did everything and handed it to him, 1144 01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:42.119 I still want to show my appreciation and respect for 1145 01:05:42.159 --> 01:05:44.820 the journey he's on and the promos and matches he gives. 1146 01:05:46.139 --> 01:05:48.880 I get all that, and I think it's symptomatic of 1147 01:05:48.940 --> 01:05:52.670 a larger problem that should be dealt with. And some 1148 01:05:52.710 --> 01:05:54.389 of it is on Kevin Owens. And I say this 1149 01:05:55.130 --> 01:05:57.389 because it's kind of funny, I think, but it's also true. 1150 01:05:57.880 --> 01:06:01.099 He should not have picked on Michael Cole when he arrived, 1151 01:06:01.260 --> 01:06:02.900 when he was trying to be a heel. He should 1152 01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:04.500 have been smart enough, because he's one of the smartest 1153 01:06:04.539 --> 01:06:07.000 wrestlers active in wrestling today, to know that Michael Cole 1154 01:06:07.019 --> 01:06:08.820 is not popular. He gets booed every time he walks 1155 01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:11.619 out for a taping. People enjoy booing Michael Cole because 1156 01:06:11.659 --> 01:06:14.190 he's a big dork who tries to be cool. And 1157 01:06:14.210 --> 01:06:19.170 that's from the frosted tips to the heel run to... To, 1158 01:06:19.250 --> 01:06:22.590 you know, whatever. It's just to the weightlifting phase he 1159 01:06:22.630 --> 01:06:24.710 just went through where it looked like his neck and 1160 01:06:24.730 --> 01:06:26.909 shoulders were going to swallow his head. He just, I mean, 1161 01:06:27.090 --> 01:06:29.329 he's ripe to pick on. I get why Kevin Owens 1162 01:06:29.369 --> 01:06:31.260 went after him, but it turned him babyface at a 1163 01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:33.179 time when he should have been going heel. Some of 1164 01:06:33.199 --> 01:06:36.920 the moves he does are babyface moves. So he's responsible 1165 01:06:36.940 --> 01:06:39.940 for it somewhat. But it's a larger problem, too, that 1166 01:06:40.860 --> 01:06:44.659 WWE is casting incorrectly. What has– I don't want to– 1167 01:06:44.719 --> 01:06:46.530 I could talk for 10 minutes about this

before realizing 1168 01:06:46.550 --> 01:06:48.289 you're still here, Mick, other than being an audience member 1169 01:06:48.329 --> 01:06:49.949 for me. I want to get to my question for you, 1170 01:06:49.969 --> 01:06:53.070 but I set the stage for that. Because I'm trying 1171 01:06:53.090 --> 01:06:54.730 to figure this out, and we're all on this journey 1172 01:06:54.750 --> 01:06:56.670 together on this show and on the VIP Audio shows 1173 01:06:56.710 --> 01:06:58.309 trying to figure out what's going wrong and how can 1174 01:06:58.349 --> 01:07:02.619 it be corrected. Was this something that was a thing 1175 01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:06.780 in the 70s or the 80s? It doesn't come down 1176 01:07:06.820 --> 01:07:12.179 to promoters and bookers. Casting wrestlers incorrectly– Has that been 1177 01:07:12.199 --> 01:07:14.719 an issue in the past where a promoter would cast 1178 01:07:14.760 --> 01:07:16.440 a wrestler as a heel, but the fans liked him? 1179 01:07:16.460 --> 01:07:18.639 Because I think some people think this is a totally 1180 01:07:18.679 --> 01:07:20.579 new thing because of the internet. And I'm not so 1181 01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:22.099 sure that it is. I think it's a bigger problem 1182 01:07:22.119 --> 01:07:23.579 now than it used to be. But I think that 1183 01:07:23.659 --> 01:07:26.389 probably happened in the past. And how did, can you 1184 01:07:26.429 --> 01:07:29.030 think of instances where it did happen and how promoters 1185 01:07:29.050 --> 01:07:31.590 and bookers and fans reacted at that time? 1186 01:07:33.400 --> 01:07:37.119 I don't think it happened in the 70s. My feeling is, 1187 01:07:37.409 --> 01:07:40.230 I mean, even in the 70s, even into the late 70s, 1188 01:07:40.510 --> 01:07:44.289 I'm just thinking about this, there were still clearly defined 1189 01:07:44.349 --> 01:07:48.969 heels and faces. And it wasn't a matter of merchandising. 1190 01:07:49.050 --> 01:07:51.110 It wasn't a matter of anything else. I mean, this 1191 01:07:51.170 --> 01:07:52.960 is who you were. This is who you were cast as. 1192 01:07:53.230 --> 01:07:56.289 I think it changed with the Road Warriors. And maybe 1193 01:07:56.530 --> 01:08:00.070 even a little bit before that, back in 1981, they 1194 01:08:00.090 --> 01:08:04.909 brought Hulk Hogan in as a hero. A heel, ostensibly, 1195 01:08:04.989 --> 01:08:07.150 is a heel with Johnny Valiant, and it didn't work. 1196 01:08:07.269 --> 01:08:10.690 So all of a sudden they make Hulk Hogan a 1197 01:08:10.750 --> 01:08:13.860 huge babyface, and the rest is history. But I think 1198 01:08:14.039 --> 01:08:18.119 in 1984, Wade, is when the lines started to blur 1199 01:08:18.770 --> 01:08:22.140 because you had the Road Warriors. who were supposed to 1200 01:08:22.180 --> 01:08:25.739 be killer heels that didn't care about anybody, where Christmas 1201 01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:28.340 was just another day to beat somebody up, according to 1202 01:08:28.399 --> 01:08:32.239 Road Warrior Hawk, but they were getting cheered. And since 1203 01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:34.859 that time, you know, it's kind of evolved that way. 1204 01:08:35.279 --> 01:08:37.630 I don't think it's just a Kevin Owens problem. It's 1205 01:08:37.670 --> 01:08:40.789 just a problem all over the place. There are no, 1206 01:08:41.050 --> 01:08:47.810 absolutely no, clearly defined baby faces and heels. A heel 1207 01:08:47.869 --> 01:08:51.039 can get in the ring and insult the crowd. And 1208 01:08:51.079 --> 01:08:54.369 it doesn't make any difference. Rusev is an example. Here's 1209 01:08:54.390 --> 01:08:59.260 the Bulgarian brute, anti-USA in every way, shape, or form. 1210 01:09:00.060 --> 01:09:02.520 But when he was attacking Roman Reigns the other week, 1211 01:09:02.899 --> 01:09:07.930 the fans were chanting Rusev. You talk about people who chant, 1212 01:09:08.010 --> 01:09:11.239 you deserve it. You got your catchphrases now. You deserve 1213 01:09:11.260 --> 01:09:14.380 it as one. This is awesome is two. And some 1214 01:09:14.399 --> 01:09:17.439 of these, this is awesome chants for what? I'm looking 1215 01:09:17.470 --> 01:09:20.069 at some of these matches and this is your standard 1216 01:09:20.109 --> 01:09:22.970 wrestling match. They did a series of chain wrestling moves 1217 01:09:23.430 --> 01:09:26.289 and now you're chanting this is awesome. And of course, 1218 01:09:26.369 --> 01:09:30.750 you can't wrestle. I just think it's a problem that 1219 01:09:31.390 --> 01:09:35.359 wrestling purists and traditionalists are just going to have to 1220 01:09:35.399 --> 01:09:37.989 get over. I hate to say it, I don't think 1221 01:09:38.010 --> 01:09:43.569 that there's anything that a heel can do today that 1222 01:09:43.630 --> 01:09:48.539 would be diabolical enough, vile enough, to get the fans 1223 01:09:48.579 --> 01:09:56.579 to absolutely hate his guts and not change. Go ahead. 1224 01:09:56.979 --> 01:09:59.239 We talk about Kevin Owens and Roman Reigns. You've got 1225 01:09:59.300 --> 01:10:01.539 Rusev and Roman Reigns, and that's an example. My God. 1226 01:10:01.739 --> 01:10:03.840 I mean, what could you possibly do to get a 1227 01:10:03.880 --> 01:10:08.239 heel to be booed if Rusev doesn't get booed? But 1228 01:10:08.380 --> 01:10:10.850 I think you have to look at what's the largest 1229 01:10:10.899 --> 01:10:14.729 problem in any one-on-one or two-on-two matchup. And the largest 1230 01:10:14.789 --> 01:10:16.989 problem in that isn't that Rusev isn't a good heel. 1231 01:10:17.149 --> 01:10:20.489 It's that Roman Reigns comes across to a huge part 1232 01:10:20.510 --> 01:10:24.350 of the fan base as a D-bag. And he also 1233 01:10:24.710 --> 01:10:27.250 is unfairly, because he's had some really good matches, and 1234 01:10:27.310 --> 01:10:30.529 he shows up for work, he's professional. There's not a 1235 01:10:30.550 --> 01:10:34.630 lot of rational reasons on a checklist to not like him, 1236

01:10:35.270 --> 01:10:39.489 other than he doesn't come across as a guy that 1237 01:10:39.689 --> 01:10:41.850 today's wrestling audience who buy wrestling tickets want to cheer. 1238 01:10:41.930 --> 01:10:45.229 And it's just, that's a fact. But he also is 1239 01:10:45.289 --> 01:10:47.760 symbolically tied to the end of the CM Punk era. 1240 01:10:47.770 --> 01:10:50.239 And CM Punk, in front of millions of people, heard 1241 01:10:50.260 --> 01:10:53.300 that podcast, where he said, yep, I quit, and in 1242 01:10:53.340 --> 01:10:55.079 my last months in the company, all I heard was, 1243 01:10:55.119 --> 01:10:57.699 make Roman look good. And people go, oh, so we 1244 01:10:57.760 --> 01:11:00.380 traded Roman for Punk. And that got the ball rolling. 1245 01:11:00.539 --> 01:11:03.939 And then Roman is shoved down people's throats when Vince 1246 01:11:03.979 --> 01:11:05.739 McMahon thinks he's being subtle, but people see it as 1247 01:11:05.770 --> 01:11:07.710 being shoved too hard because it was at the expense 1248 01:11:07.750 --> 01:11:11.130 of Daniel Bryan. So there's all this symbolic baggage on Roman. 1249 01:11:11.609 --> 01:11:15.710 But I do believe that in two weeks or two months, 1250 01:11:16.489 --> 01:11:20.229 WWE can have Kevin Owens as a babyface champion taking 1251 01:11:20.329 --> 01:11:22.670 on Roman Reigns as a heel challenger and it will 1252 01:11:22.710 --> 01:11:26.869 be like the Minneapolis Auditorium in 1978. I think fans 1253 01:11:26.909 --> 01:11:30.329 will be booing Roman Reigns with a passion and cheering 1254 01:11:30.489 --> 01:11:34.649 wildly for Kevin Owens because I think it's about casting. 1255 01:11:34.789 --> 01:11:37.800 It's about recognizing your audience, which, by the way, Vern 1256 01:11:37.810 --> 01:11:41.069 Gagne did. He thought Hogan is a heel. He's a big, 1257 01:11:41.109 --> 01:11:44.399 muscular guy. It's what he's been before. The fans took 1258 01:11:44.439 --> 01:11:46.859 to him. Let's flip the script. I'm going to listen 1259 01:11:46.880 --> 01:11:47.960 to my fans. I'm going to do it, and I'm 1260 01:11:47.979 --> 01:11:49.760 going to have a choice. So when you say we 1261 01:11:49.779 --> 01:11:52.050 have to get used to it, I mean, I think 1262 01:11:52.069 --> 01:11:53.630 there's an element of that that's true, but I do 1263 01:11:53.670 --> 01:11:56.329 think there's an aspect that it's just bad casting. Just 1264 01:11:56.550 --> 01:12:00.029 listen to the fans and book as babyfaces those who 1265 01:12:00.050 --> 01:12:03.310 they like. And if somebody just for hard to, you know, 1266 01:12:03.399 --> 01:12:06.649 intangible reasons like Roman, they don't like him, don't fight it. 1267 01:12:07.460 --> 01:12:10.020 Have him embrace it. I mean, Roman, I think, could 1268 01:12:10.039 --> 01:12:11.600 be one of the great heels of this generation who 1269 01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:15.319 actually gets booed by just embracing the D-bag vibe that 1270 01:12:15.359 --> 01:12:18.909 he gives off to the male, predominantly male fans who 1271 01:12:18.949 --> 01:12:19.880 are buying tickets and booing him. 1272 01:12:21.800 --> 01:12:25.409 Couple of things. First of all, I've always said that 1273 01:12:26.310 --> 01:12:29.920 if you want to get Roman Reigns cheered, turn him heel. 1274 01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:36.859 Just looking at the fan base. basically the fans thumbing 1275 01:12:36.890 --> 01:12:38.949 their nose at you and saying, okay, now you want 1276 01:12:39.350 --> 01:12:41.149 us to boo them, well, now we're going to cheer them. 1277 01:12:41.250 --> 01:12:43.050 I mean, that's one thought about it. 1278 01:12:43.109 --> 01:12:46.630 But I don't... Yeah, maybe not. I don't think they would. 1279 01:12:46.869 --> 01:12:48.970 I mean, you might be right, and if you are, 1280 01:12:49.010 --> 01:12:51.300 your first comment is right. It's over, we have to 1281 01:12:51.319 --> 01:12:53.779 get used to it, or we've got to tear up 1282 01:12:53.800 --> 01:12:55.840 the game plan and start over and make a five-year 1283 01:12:55.880 --> 01:12:58.140 plan to try to figure this thing out. I do 1284 01:12:58.319 --> 01:13:00.800 think a lot of this is casting. I just think 1285 01:13:00.859 --> 01:13:02.659 Vince McMahon looks at a guy who he wants to 1286 01:13:02.699 --> 01:13:05.770 go on Regis and Kelly. Not Regis and Kelly. I'm 1287 01:13:06.029 --> 01:13:07.989 dating myself. You know, it's just a morning chit-chat show. 1288 01:13:08.949 --> 01:13:11.569 And they just go on some morning chit-chat show and 1289 01:13:11.829 --> 01:13:15.090 look like that they can be proud to put him. 1290 01:13:15.430 --> 01:13:18.060 Because they do WrestleMania billboards. They want a guy who 1291 01:13:18.140 --> 01:13:22.960 looks like a star on those billboards. And they're hung 1292 01:13:23.060 --> 01:13:25.420 up on that. But that's not their audience. Their audience 1293 01:13:25.460 --> 01:13:28.899 isn't corporate America. Their audience isn't Wall Street. Their audience 1294 01:13:28.979 --> 01:13:31.960 isn't advertised agents who wouldn't be caught dead watching Raw. 1295 01:13:33.180 --> 01:13:36.039 on a Monday night. Their audience are their fans. Just 1296 01:13:36.460 --> 01:13:39.989 cater to them. Let go of your hang-ups and book 1297 01:13:40.050 --> 01:13:42.710 Roman as a heel. And I think fans will boo 1298 01:13:42.770 --> 01:13:46.189 him because there's something about his vibe that comes off 1299 01:13:47.010 --> 01:13:51.680 as today's audience doesn't want to hear him. So I 1300 01:13:51.699 --> 01:13:54.340 think it's false that it's going to happen no matter what. 1301 01:13:54.460 --> 01:13:57.439 I really don't think fans are just being contrarian. I 1302 01:13:57.479 --> 01:13:59.949 think they're sending a message to management, You're asking us 1303 01:13:59.970 --> 01:14:01.590 to cheer people we don't like, and you're asking us 1304 01:14:01.630 --> 01:14:03.090 to boo people

we respect and like. 1305 01:14:11.800 --> 01:14:14.800 Are you a fan of AEW looking to sit back, relax, 1306 01:14:14.920 --> 01:14:17.859 and listen to some like-minded podcasters who share your passion? 1307 01:14:18.460 --> 01:14:20.279 Do you want to be talked off the ledge after 1308 01:14:20.340 --> 01:14:22.520 a segment that has you wondering what the heck are 1309 01:14:22.539 --> 01:14:23.039 they thinking? 1310 01:14:23.680 --> 01:14:26.119 Do you want to join a discussion on what AEW 1311 01:14:26.199 --> 01:14:28.600 is doing right and what they could do to improve? 1312 01:14:29.020 --> 01:14:30.060 Then join me, Joel. 1313 01:14:30.420 --> 01:14:33.149 And me, Greg, for the All Elite Conversation Club every 1314 01:14:33.199 --> 01:14:37.609 Friday on the PWTorch Livecast feed. Search PWTorch in your 1315 01:14:37.630 --> 01:14:41.470 podcast app and subscribe to PWTorch Dailycast or stream our 1316 01:14:41.510 --> 01:14:45.840 shows directly from PWTorch.com. Find full details on the PWTorch 1317 01:14:45.859 --> 01:14:59.439 Dailycast lineup at PWTorchDailycast.com. Interesting. 1318 01:14:59.800 --> 01:15:05.220 Interesting. And having said that, just a question for you 1319 01:15:05.439 --> 01:15:11.659 along the same vein. Would you, at this point, make 1320 01:15:11.720 --> 01:15:12.899 John Cena a heel? 1321 01:15:14.659 --> 01:15:15.270 No, I wouldn't. 1322 01:15:15.329 --> 01:15:17.329 Would you try to make John Cena a heel? What 1323 01:15:17.369 --> 01:15:21.869 happens if John Cena goes full-fledged heel? Are the fans 1324 01:15:21.909 --> 01:15:25.029 going to start cheering him? Or do they say, well, 1325 01:15:25.050 --> 01:15:27.960 you know what, now the door is open. Now you've 1326 01:15:28.020 --> 01:15:30.270 given us carte blanche. Now we're really going to let 1327 01:15:30.310 --> 01:15:31.029 this guy have it. 1328 01:15:31.199 --> 01:15:35.250 See, it's a little more nuanced than, yes, I would 1329 01:15:35.270 --> 01:15:39.470 turn him heel because there would be things tied to it. Right. 1330 01:15:39.630 --> 01:15:40.829 Merchandising, for example? 1331 01:15:41.090 --> 01:15:43.029 Well, that's one, but I was going to go a 1332 01:15:43.029 --> 01:15:45.489 different direction, although that's a valid point. But that's a 1333 01:15:45.510 --> 01:15:47.189 reason not to turn him heel because John Cena goes, 1334 01:15:47.210 --> 01:15:48.479 I don't want to give up my merchandise. Maybe a 1335 01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:51.310 whole new audience would buy his merchandise. But the reason– 1336 01:15:51.640 --> 01:15:53.960 and by the way, I don't think that a wrestling 1337 01:15:54.000 --> 01:15:57.310 promotion– should not turn somebody heel if it's best for 1338 01:15:57.350 --> 01:16:00.310 business because they want that wrestler to keep getting merchandise checks. 1339 01:16:00.930 --> 01:16:02.989 I think fans have a certain allotment of money that 1340 01:16:03.010 --> 01:16:05.390 they're willing

to spend on merchandise, and they'll spend it. 1341 01:16:05.470 --> 01:16:07.729 The people who buy the merchandise will spend it on 1342 01:16:07.789 --> 01:16:11.029 whoever is the most prominent T-shirt available at house shows 1343 01:16:11.220 --> 01:16:13.680 and the person who's in the main event. You should 1344 01:16:13.720 --> 01:16:15.560 do what will draw the most fans to your building, 1345 01:16:15.800 --> 01:16:18.340 the most eyeballs who are going to be invested enough 1346 01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:20.720 in your product to watch live when you present your show, 1347 01:16:21.039 --> 01:16:23.300 not just watch a three-minute YouTube clip two days later 1348 01:16:23.649 --> 01:16:25.380 or that night in bed after they watch some other 1349 01:16:25.399 --> 01:16:27.899 show for two or three hours. You want an engaged, 1350 01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:31.720 passionate audience who are watching your product live because they 1351 01:16:31.739 --> 01:16:33.119 don't want to miss anything and they want to be 1352 01:16:33.159 --> 01:16:35.199 there to see it when it happens. And if that 1353 01:16:35.239 --> 01:16:38.500 means turning John Cena heel, do it because the merchandise 1354 01:16:38.539 --> 01:16:41.510 revenue will follow in some form or fashion because someone 1355 01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:44.350 else will take his top babyface spot. But that's the catch. 1356 01:16:45.310 --> 01:16:48.970 Do they have a babyface to take John Cena's place 1357 01:16:49.529 --> 01:16:52.890 as the top guy? So I don't turn John Cena 1358 01:16:52.970 --> 01:16:55.229 until that piece is in place, where you have one 1359 01:16:55.270 --> 01:16:58.590 or two guys that you know are workhorses who can 1360 01:16:58.689 --> 01:17:01.949 lead the house show circuit and sell merchandise in place 1361 01:17:01.970 --> 01:17:05.319 of John Cena. Whether that's Seth Rollins, Kevin Owens, Finn Balor, 1362 01:17:05.819 --> 01:17:09.819 if Daniel Bryan magically gets cleared, if Sami Zayn catches 1363 01:17:09.859 --> 01:17:11.800 fire in six months because they do everything right with him, 1364 01:17:11.819 --> 01:17:14.760 whatever it is, pick your guy. Then I say, still 1365 01:17:14.779 --> 01:17:17.430 consider it. But here's the catch. That was a question 1366 01:17:17.470 --> 01:17:19.699 I could more easily answer five years ago. I think 1367 01:17:19.739 --> 01:17:22.159 John Cena's put in his time, he's paid his dues, 1368 01:17:22.560 --> 01:17:26.159 and he's looking at other opportunities now, clearly. He's doing 1369 01:17:26.199 --> 01:17:29.979 reality TV, he's guest hosting the Today Show. He wants 1370 01:17:30.079 --> 01:17:32.159 to do other things, and I think at this point, 1371 01:17:32.470 --> 01:17:35.489 he has the clout and he's earned the right to say, 1372 01:17:36.310 --> 01:17:40.109 I could probably be 20% more valuable to you in 1373 01:17:40.130 --> 01:17:41.949 the next two years as a heel than as a babyface, 1374 01:17:42.250 --> 01:17:44.869 but it would really wreak havoc with what I'm trying 1375 01:17:44.890 --> 01:17:46.760 to do with the next stage of my career. And 1376 01:17:46.779 --> 01:17:49.060 I think that WWE should honor that at this point. 1377 01:17:49.159 --> 01:17:51.560 It might actually be too late to turn him heel 1378 01:17:51.600 --> 01:17:53.920 because I don't think fans would even believe it anymore. 1379 01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:56.659 Would they cheer him if he turned heel? It would 1380 01:17:56.699 --> 01:17:59.149 depend on what he did once he turned heel. If 1381 01:17:59.189 --> 01:18:02.250 he finally dropped the corporate speak and did seem like 1382 01:18:02.289 --> 01:18:05.970 just a lapdog and yes man for the corporation, then 1383 01:18:06.010 --> 01:18:07.670 I think they would cheer him. They'd go, finally, you've 1384 01:18:07.689 --> 01:18:10.029 seen the light. But if he played heel but still 1385 01:18:10.149 --> 01:18:14.829 used WWE language in his promos and spoke very articulately, 1386 01:18:14.869 --> 01:18:18.000 almost too much so in a way that that sounded 1387 01:18:18.020 --> 01:18:21.239 like he was still just playing the heel role for 1388 01:18:21.279 --> 01:18:26.779 the superstars in the WWE universe here on SmackDown Live. Well, 1389 01:18:26.979 --> 01:18:27.939 people are going to boo that, too. 1390 01:18:30.659 --> 01:18:33.899 Absolutely astute, as usual. I told you. I told you 1391 01:18:33.960 --> 01:18:37.420 in Waterloo. I love listening to you talk. You're brilliant. 1392 01:18:37.840 --> 01:18:41.140 And I got to tell you, that Kevin Owens-Roman Reigns scenario, 1393 01:18:41.420 --> 01:18:44.439 I love that. I mean, you're absolutely right about that. 1394 01:18:44.479 --> 01:18:46.789 I could just... You bring Kevin Owens in as the 1395 01:18:46.829 --> 01:18:50.000 baby face and Roman Reigns as the heel, that has... 1396 01:18:50.689 --> 01:18:52.949 that has money written all over it. So thanks for 1397 01:18:52.979 --> 01:18:54.720 the idea. I'm going to claim it as my own. 1398 01:18:55.149 --> 01:18:58.539 Go for it. I don't care. Um, I love, I 1399 01:18:58.579 --> 01:19:00.939 love talking current day wrestling. I love compare, you know, 1400 01:19:00.979 --> 01:19:03.140 like asking you about the seventies and eighties and getting 1401 01:19:03.180 --> 01:19:06.180 that perspective. I mean, it's, it's, it's so, you know, 1402 01:19:06.279 --> 01:19:08.399 what is different today? What can be learned for how, 1403 01:19:08.689 --> 01:19:10.520 There's things that were done in the 70s and 80s 1404 01:19:10.560 --> 01:19:15.010 that translate to today. And that have been forgotten. Lost approaches, 1405 01:19:15.069 --> 01:19:18.510 lost arbitrary changes that were not done for good reason, 1406 01:19:18.550 --> 01:19:21.529 that just have the inertia of, well, it's what I 1407 01:19:21.569 --> 01:19:23.149 saw in the Attitude Era, and that was big money, 1408 01:19:23.189 -->

01:19:25.390 so it must be the right thing to do. And 1409 01:19:25.489 --> 01:19:27.270 it's more nuanced than that. And there's so much to 1410 01:19:27.310 --> 01:19:31.149 learn from wrestling history and how fans have changed, but 1411 01:19:31.210 --> 01:19:34.470 also how promoters have changed the fans and how the 1412 01:19:34.489 --> 01:19:38.770 narrative structure has given the fans... a different approach to 1413 01:19:38.949 --> 01:19:41.659 how they react to wrestling matches. And I think that 1414 01:19:41.680 --> 01:19:46.359 the promotions have more control over it than they realize. 1415 01:19:46.600 --> 01:19:51.640 And I think there's this defeatist resignation that just doesn't... 1416 01:19:52.479 --> 01:19:54.630 I don't think is applicable, at least not yet. I 1417 01:19:54.670 --> 01:19:57.409 think there's some things that can be tried and done 1418 01:19:58.550 --> 01:20:02.600 that might result in... Promoters and bookers and wrestlers realizing 1419 01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:07.350 it's not hopeless and it's not those damn millennials and 1420 01:20:07.649 --> 01:20:10.510 that they can control it. And it will lead to– 1421 01:20:10.649 --> 01:20:12.710 and this is the thing. It's not about controlling the fans. 1422 01:20:12.770 --> 01:20:15.449 It's about giving all fans of all types, the ones 1423 01:20:15.470 --> 01:20:16.850 who are buying tickets and watching and the ones who 1424 01:20:16.930 --> 01:20:20.529 aren't because they're frustrated or not interested, a better experience. 1425 01:20:21.109 --> 01:20:23.689 And that's what I– when people say, oh, Wade, you're 1426 01:20:23.710 --> 01:20:25.600 stuck in your ways and it can't be that way. 1427 01:20:25.609 --> 01:20:27.180 The genie's out of the bottle. Some of that is 1428 01:20:27.239 --> 01:20:31.310 true in some respects. But everything I advocate for isn't 1429 01:20:31.390 --> 01:20:33.250 making things the way that I remember them when I 1430 01:20:33.270 --> 01:20:35.029 was a kid. That's not the way I approach it. 1431 01:20:35.069 --> 01:20:39.069 What I advocate for is a better fan experience in 1432 01:20:39.069 --> 01:20:42.590 2016 going into 2017 for everybody in ways, and this 1433 01:20:42.630 --> 01:20:44.800 might sound arrogant, but I think that there are ways 1434 01:20:44.840 --> 01:20:49.359 to promote wrestling differently that will make all types of 1435 01:20:49.420 --> 01:20:53.220 fans enjoy the product more and some fans enjoy it 1436 01:20:53.239 --> 01:20:56.060 in a way they never imagined was possible. And I 1437 01:20:56.100 --> 01:20:59.060 think every promoter and booker should always be churning through 1438 01:20:59.159 --> 01:21:04.149 ideas and questioning all these paradigms, many of which are 1439 01:21:04.210 --> 01:21:06.329 outdated or were false to begin with, in order to 1440 01:21:06.369 --> 01:21:09.810 create a better experience for fans. And I know that 1441 01:21:10.270 --> 01:21:12.550 experience is out

there. I see more than glimpses of 1442 01:21:12.569 --> 01:21:15.310 it with NXT when they're clicking. And I see more 1443 01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:18.579 than glimpses of it in all products. But it's frustrating 1444 01:21:18.899 --> 01:21:21.899 when you have a guy at the top, Vince McMahon, 1445 01:21:22.800 --> 01:21:25.319 with a problem with the way he casts wrestlers. I mean, 1446 01:21:25.340 --> 01:21:27.539 that's the frustrating part. Sorry, Mick, for talking so much, 1447 01:21:27.579 --> 01:21:28.680 and it's your interview. 1448 01:21:29.159 --> 01:21:32.560 No, no, that's all right, but because you did talk 1449 01:21:32.619 --> 01:21:34.699 so much, of course I have to promote Steel Domain 1450 01:21:34.729 --> 01:21:38.489 Wrestling before I go. I have to do that because, 1451 01:21:38.529 --> 01:21:40.329 you know, Ed Hellyer will be all over me if 1452 01:21:40.430 --> 01:21:45.470 I don't. You know, we even had Pat Royce. show 1453 01:21:45.529 --> 01:21:48.289 up at our event in Crystal, Minnesota this last week, 1454 01:21:48.329 --> 01:21:50.850 and Pat really loved what he saw. And of course, 1455 01:21:52.170 --> 01:21:54.189 just indulge me for a second, Wade, I've got to 1456 01:21:54.229 --> 01:21:58.229 put over SDW because that really is my promotion right 1457 01:21:58.270 --> 01:22:01.449 now in terms of the one that I'm most loyal 1458 01:22:01.510 --> 01:22:05.659 to and working for continuously. And you've been to some 1459 01:22:05.699 --> 01:22:09.819 Steel Domain shows. Very, very proud of the roster. We 1460 01:22:09.859 --> 01:22:13.770 have some tremendous talent working for us right now. Cohesive 1461 01:22:13.850 --> 01:22:16.670 locker room, which is almost unheard of a lot of 1462 01:22:16.710 --> 01:22:21.890 times in independent wrestling. Everybody gets along. Everybody follows direction. 1463 01:22:22.010 --> 01:22:23.649 And I just want to talk about us a little bit. 1464 01:22:23.989 --> 01:22:27.449 I mean, we're on YouTube. We're on Fight TV. Our 1465 01:22:27.529 --> 01:22:31.909 next event is October 22nd at the Richfield American Legion 1466 01:22:32.510 --> 01:22:36.579 on 65th and Portland. We're very proud of the product. 1467 01:22:36.619 --> 01:22:40.149 Very professional. You talk about that old school link. You're 1468 01:22:40.170 --> 01:22:41.630 not going to see a lot of comedy. You're not 1469 01:22:41.670 --> 01:22:43.909 going to see a lot of BS with us. We 1470 01:22:43.949 --> 01:22:46.500 go out and we deliver. You talk about the fan experience. 1471 01:22:47.260 --> 01:22:50.760 People will go to SDW shows, really seem to be very, 1472 01:22:50.819 --> 01:22:55.090 very happy with what they're seeing. And just come on out. 1473 01:22:55.189 --> 01:22:59.789 Two championship matches, October 22nd, again, the American Legion in Richfield. 1474 01:23:00.029 --> 01:23:03.329 The Golden Idol, your old buddy, is back in town. 1475 01:23:03.350 --> 01:23:06.189 He has been for about three years, and he's a 1476 01:23:06.250 --> 01:23:09.760 big part of steel domain. So come on out. You're 1477 01:23:10.000 --> 01:23:12.119 going to enjoy it. You're going to have a terrific time. 1478 01:23:12.479 --> 01:23:15.800 Two championship matches, and we'll hope to see you there. 1479 01:23:17.510 --> 01:23:19.470 You know that last segment you're just listening to and 1480 01:23:19.510 --> 01:23:21.529 the next one that you're waiting to listen to? Those 1481 01:23:21.590 --> 01:23:24.069 can be one second apart with a VIP membership. You 1482 01:23:24.090 --> 01:23:28.260 can unlock our commercial-free versions of our shows. PWTorch.com slash 1483 01:23:28.300 --> 01:23:33.000 GoVIP tells you how to do it. That's PWTorch.com slash GoVIP. 1484 01:23:33.359 --> 01:23:37.079 Options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, 1485 01:23:37.220 --> 01:23:39.140 through Patreon, which, by the way, you can sync up 1486 01:23:39.180 --> 01:23:42.350 with Spotify, or just about any iOS or Android app 1487 01:23:42.510 --> 01:23:45.340 with a full VIP membership. You can customize the feed 1488 01:23:45.380 --> 01:23:48.720 for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go 1489 01:23:48.760 --> 01:23:52.399 to pwtorch.com slash govip for full details on all the 1490 01:23:52.539 --> 01:23:56.880 options to listen commercial-free. And with upper-tier options, unlock our 1491 01:23:56.960 --> 01:24:02.229 VIP-exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. Mick, 1492 01:24:02.239 --> 01:24:04.649 can I ask one independent-related question that I teased earlier 1493 01:24:04.670 --> 01:24:05.149 and didn't get to? 1494 01:24:05.390 --> 01:24:05.670 Sure. 1495 01:24:06.909 --> 01:24:09.590 Talk about the indie wrestler today. You talk about a 1496 01:24:09.609 --> 01:24:13.680 locker room getting along. How has WWE's developmental system and 1497 01:24:13.699 --> 01:24:18.739 the domination of WWE as the primary way to earn 1498 01:24:18.779 --> 01:24:21.220 a full-time living in this industry? I mean, ROH is 1499 01:24:21.260 --> 01:24:24.180 number two, TNA barely a third. I mean, there's very 1500 01:24:24.220 --> 01:24:27.890 few spots. You know, maybe the Hardy Boys are earning 1501 01:24:27.930 --> 01:24:30.350 full-time livings because they just do TV tapings and it's 1502 01:24:30.409 --> 01:24:33.510 few and far between. How do indie wrestlers, how are 1503 01:24:33.529 --> 01:24:38.909 they different today in how they approach their career or 1504 01:24:38.949 --> 01:24:42.119 their craft and or their hobby in the whole range 1505 01:24:42.619 --> 01:24:46.520 that any indie show includes as far as that range 1506 01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:49.319 of wrestlers approaching things differently. How has that changed compared 1507 01:24:49.359 --> 01:24:52.279 to the 1980s and 90s when I just had more 1508 01:24:52.319 --> 01:24:54.850 time and went to more indie shows? How have indie 1509

01:24:54.869 --> 01:24:57.130 wrestlers changed their outlook in terms of why they're doing 1510 01:24:57.149 --> 01:24:58.819 it and what their goals are and how they approach it? 1511 01:25:00.689 --> 01:25:03.289 I think back in the 80s, a lot of the 1512 01:25:03.350 --> 01:25:06.430 indie wrestlers thought that they really may have a chance 1513 01:25:06.449 --> 01:25:11.199 to go someplace with all the territories. And so, especially 1514 01:25:11.239 --> 01:25:13.399 if you were like an Eddie Sharkey trainee and you 1515 01:25:13.420 --> 01:25:16.739 were a Sean Waltman or a Jerry Lynn or whoever 1516 01:25:16.779 --> 01:25:19.659 it might be, I think they felt back then that 1517 01:25:19.689 --> 01:25:22.689 there was more of an opportunity. And I don't want 1518 01:25:22.729 --> 01:25:25.369 to say they took it more seriously back then, but 1519 01:25:26.270 --> 01:25:30.649 in a sense that they did, I think that they 1520 01:25:30.770 --> 01:25:33.710 thought that maybe there would be an opening someplace that 1521 01:25:33.770 --> 01:25:38.229 maybe somebody would see them. I think they were... and 1522 01:25:38.270 --> 01:25:40.279 I hate to say this, I think a lot of 1523 01:25:40.340 --> 01:25:44.460 them were a lot more respectful to the wrestling business 1524 01:25:45.539 --> 01:25:51.569 than they are today. I think today, and not necessarily 1525 01:25:51.590 --> 01:25:53.970 in steel domain or whatever, I've been in a lot 1526 01:25:53.989 --> 01:25:56.930 of locker rooms with the indie guys, and a lot 1527 01:25:56.970 --> 01:26:00.609 of them are show to show to show. That's how 1528 01:26:00.649 --> 01:26:03.680 the mentality has changed. You know, they're going to be 1529 01:26:03.720 --> 01:26:09.090 wrestling in front of 30 friends and family. Or they 1530 01:26:09.109 --> 01:26:11.670 don't want to do the job Tuesday night because people 1531 01:26:11.710 --> 01:26:14.640 from the car dealership are going to be there. I 1532 01:26:14.720 --> 01:26:19.739 think the way that they look at wrestling and the 1533 01:26:19.779 --> 01:26:23.020 sport as a whole, their respect for the business, I 1534 01:26:23.079 --> 01:26:26.159 think the focus has changed to more me, me, me. 1535 01:26:28.750 --> 01:26:31.590 That's just the way I see it. I see in 1536 01:26:31.630 --> 01:26:34.060 a lot of ways, maybe if there's a veteran in 1537 01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:36.539 the locker room, and I talked to Honky Tonk about 1538 01:26:36.579 --> 01:26:39.840 this a couple of years ago. You bring in a veteran, 1539 01:26:40.659 --> 01:26:43.760 and here's a guy who basically did it all in 1540 01:26:43.779 --> 01:26:47.270 the business, and he may want to give some of 1541 01:26:47.279 --> 01:26:50.949 the new guys advice and they'll pay him lip service 1542 01:26:51.270 --> 01:26:53.149 or he'll be giving them the advice, and you can 1543 01:26:53.189 --> 01:26:55.869 see they're looking right through him. He walks out of 1544 01:26:55.909 --> 01:26:59.970 the door, and it's kind of laughing and chuckling. I 1545 01:27:00.010 --> 01:27:02.210 think a lot of guys don't take it seriously. They 1546 01:27:02.229 --> 01:27:05.329 don't think this is their real career. They're not looking 1547 01:27:05.369 --> 01:27:08.489 for anything beyond what's going to happen next week or 1548 01:27:08.510 --> 01:27:09.930 if they can get, you know, I'm booked for the 1549 01:27:09.970 --> 01:27:14.090 next two months in six or seven different promotions around 1550 01:27:14.409 --> 01:27:18.239 the Midwest. They're just fine with that. They're satisfied with that. 1551 01:27:18.779 --> 01:27:22.239 In that sense, I think the mentality has really changed. 1552 01:27:22.279 --> 01:27:26.329 There are those who really do have their sights set 1553 01:27:26.369 --> 01:27:30.529 on something bigger, like an Austin Aries or an Aria Daivari, 1554 01:27:30.569 --> 01:27:34.649 for example, who just wrestled in the WWE Cruiserweight Tournament. 1555 01:27:34.710 --> 01:27:40.319 Guys like that, they're getting noticed on YouTube. They're the 1556 01:27:40.399 --> 01:27:43.539 real deal. They see the potential, and they're going to 1557 01:27:43.579 --> 01:27:47.079 go for the brass rings. I don't necessarily think that 1558 01:27:47.119 --> 01:27:50.380 that's the predominant attitude today, sadly. 1559 01:27:51.039 --> 01:27:55.390 Yeah, and is there a higher percentage of wrestlers who 1560 01:27:55.550 --> 01:28:00.930 are just happy being weekend warriors and it's a hobby? 1561 01:28:01.489 --> 01:28:05.250 And is that even a bad thing if that's true? Because, 1562 01:28:05.350 --> 01:28:07.649 I mean, you know, Tommy Ferrara back in the 80s 1563 01:28:07.720 --> 01:28:11.680 in the PWA never expected to beat WWF champions. but 1564 01:28:12.140 --> 01:28:14.479 he had fun doing what he was doing. Larry Cameron 1565 01:28:14.659 --> 01:28:17.460 wanted to be WWF champion someday. That was an aspiration. 1566 01:28:17.479 --> 01:28:21.399 That was a possibility. Indie shows have had that range. 1567 01:28:21.840 --> 01:28:31.010 Is that ratio different? Are you okay with it? Is 1568 01:28:31.090 --> 01:28:33.029 it fine that when you go to an indie show, 1569 01:28:33.069 --> 01:28:37.369 sometimes it is people who don't have real high aspirations. 1570 01:28:38.189 --> 01:28:40.140 It's a fun hobby that they take seriously, but it's 1571 01:28:40.180 --> 01:28:40.920 on a smaller scale. 1572 01:28:42.560 --> 01:28:45.979 It's a double-edged sword because it's great to have the enthusiasm. 1573 01:28:46.260 --> 01:28:49.000 And if they're going to go in there, let's say 1574 01:28:49.060 --> 01:28:51.439 it's just like you said, Wade, they're a weekend warrior. 1575 01:28:51.479 --> 01:28:53.319 This is what they're going to do. This is their hobby. 1576 01:28:53.699 --> 01:28:56.189 Maybe it's their passion. It's not their full-time job, and 1577 01:28:56.229 --> 01:28:59.069 this is what

they do. If they go in there 1578 01:28:59.189 --> 01:29:03.390 with a good attitude, that even though that's what it is, 1579 01:29:04.229 --> 01:29:06.909 they're going to give it 150% and they're going to 1580 01:29:07.050 --> 01:29:10.149 try and they're going to go through training camps and 1581 01:29:10.170 --> 01:29:12.010 they're going to give it their all to be the 1582 01:29:12.069 --> 01:29:14.789 best that they can be even at that level, then 1583 01:29:14.850 --> 01:29:17.989 it's great. What I see a lot of, though, are 1584 01:29:18.010 --> 01:29:22.460 a lot of untrained wrestlers or moderately trained wrestlers who 1585 01:29:22.520 --> 01:29:25.119 really don't care. They're going to go in and they're 1586 01:29:25.140 --> 01:29:27.699 going to have their match and they're going to meet 1587 01:29:27.739 --> 01:29:30.119 with their girlfriend after the show. And this is what 1588 01:29:30.159 --> 01:29:32.760 they do. So it is a double-edged sword because if 1589 01:29:32.779 --> 01:29:35.479 you get a guy with a lousy attitude like that, 1590 01:29:35.539 --> 01:29:39.199 who really isn't again, dedicated to the business, doesn't have 1591 01:29:39.600 --> 01:29:42.920 a respect for his craft and he's just going through there, 1592 01:29:42.960 --> 01:29:46.479 going through the motions, whatever it is, then no, I 1593 01:29:46.500 --> 01:29:49.020 think it's a horrible thing to have a guy like 1594 01:29:49.060 --> 01:29:53.260 that on a show because it shows in the ring, 1595 01:29:53.399 --> 01:29:56.479 not only in terms of attitude, but but in terms 1596 01:29:56.560 --> 01:29:57.439 of execution. 1597 01:29:59.699 --> 01:30:01.939 Mick, thank you. I appreciate it. What a wide range 1598 01:30:01.979 --> 01:30:05.149 of insights and references and stories throughout history. It's great 1599 01:30:05.649 --> 01:30:07.630 that we're able to connect and have you on the 1600 01:30:07.649 --> 01:30:09.680 program again. I enjoy it. 1601 01:30:09.909 --> 01:30:10.829 I love it. Thank you, Wade. 1602 01:30:10.850 --> 01:30:14.350 It's as wide-ranging of a series of topics as it gets, 1603 01:30:14.369 --> 01:30:17.270 from the indie scene to Bobby Heenan and Nick Bockwinkle 1604 01:30:17.310 --> 01:30:21.659 to upcoming events to Roman Reigns, Kevin Owens, and all that. 1605 01:30:21.680 --> 01:30:24.800 I love it. So, again, thank you. Thanks for your 1606 01:30:24.819 --> 01:30:27.399 friendship over the years, and hopefully we can get you 1607 01:30:27.420 --> 01:30:28.180 back on again soon. 1608 01:30:30.020 --> 01:30:32.500 I appreciate that, and be sure to give Bruce Mitchell 1609 01:30:32.539 --> 01:30:34.220 my very, very best, will you? 1610 01:30:36.020 --> 01:30:38.850 I will pass it along in exactly that tone. 1611 01:30:40.369 --> 01:30:41.930 Thank you, Wade. I appreciate it, man. 1612 01:30:41.949 --> 01:30:43.829 You know, after what Ric Flair said about me yesterday 1613 01:30:43.890 --> 01:30:46.710 on his podcast when Bruce Mitchell was on with Conrad 1614 01:30:46.770 --> 01:30:50.800 and Ric, I appreciate you kind of evening things out 1615 01:30:50.819 --> 01:30:53.079 a little bit because Rick just ripped it into me 1616 01:30:53.100 --> 01:30:54.279 at the beginning of the show. He said some nice 1617 01:30:54.300 --> 01:30:56.220 things at the very end about me, but at the beginning, 1618 01:30:56.239 --> 01:30:57.199 he was just tearing it into me. He'd be like, 1619 01:30:57.220 --> 01:30:58.520 why does Rick Flair not like you and all that? 1620 01:30:58.920 --> 01:31:00.500 And so I'm glad that at least we got something 1621 01:31:00.659 --> 01:31:02.840 snide from my guest in return aimed at Bruce. 1622 01:31:04.439 --> 01:31:05.260 I'm glad I could help. 1623 01:31:05.399 --> 01:31:07.680 Thanks, Mick. That's Mick Garsh. 1624 01:31:07.739 --> 01:31:08.300 Take care, man. 1625 01:31:08.380 --> 01:31:11.359 You bet. If you like old school wrestling and you 1626 01:31:11.380 --> 01:31:13.539 want to learn about its history, there's a really cool 1627 01:31:13.579 --> 01:31:16.189 way to experience that. is with our retro radio shows 1628 01:31:16.229 --> 01:31:18.130 that are exclusive to VIP members. We just put up 1629 01:31:18.149 --> 01:31:21.779 a Pro Wrestling Spotlight radio show earlier this week, and 1630 01:31:21.939 --> 01:31:25.460 it features vintage interviews on John Arezzi's New York-based Pro 1631 01:31:25.479 --> 01:31:28.000 Wrestling Spotlight radio show with, I was going to say 1632 01:31:28.020 --> 01:31:31.479 Mick Karsh, Mick Foley, Terry Funk, and Paul Heyman. And 1633 01:31:31.520 --> 01:31:33.689 it was his year-end edition, and he had a variety 1634 01:31:33.710 --> 01:31:36.789 of really cool clips of interviews he had done. And 1635 01:31:36.810 --> 01:31:38.609 then the Power Twins came in, speaking of indie wrestling, 1636 01:31:38.649 --> 01:31:41.109 indie wrestlers out of the Northeast, and they would go 1637 01:31:41.170 --> 01:31:43.810 in studio with John, and they're just super entertaining, just 1638 01:31:44.449 --> 01:31:46.810 tearing into collars and being smart asses and that kind 1639 01:31:46.850 --> 01:31:51.060 of thing. But they're talking about 1991 wrestling on a 1640 01:31:51.199 --> 01:31:54.260 show like this, talking about the problems in the context 1641 01:31:54.359 --> 01:31:57.100 of the day and of the moment with a really 1642 01:31:57.119 --> 01:31:59.399 good wrestling mind and a smooth host and John Arezzi 1643 01:32:00.020 --> 01:32:03.819 running things. Those are now our goal. And I hate 1644 01:32:03.840 --> 01:32:05.840 to advertise ahead of time, but sometimes it helps to 1645 01:32:06.180 --> 01:32:08.399 say it publicly so that we actually feel obligated to 1646 01:32:08.439 --> 01:32:10.520 do it and carve out time to do it. The 1647 01:32:10.560 --> 01:32:12.779 goal right now is to put a new Pro Wrestling 1648 01:32:12.800 --> 01:32:15.239 Spotlight or Total Chaos

radio show from the Attitude Era 1649 01:32:15.739 --> 01:32:17.720 that have never been heard on the internet before, only 1650 01:32:17.819 --> 01:32:21.279 aired originally, when they aired originally, back in the day, 1651 01:32:21.810 --> 01:32:25.050 and get a new one up every week for VIP members. 1652 01:32:25.090 --> 01:32:28.149 And I'm going to play our pre-recorded ad that gives 1653 01:32:28.170 --> 01:32:30.810 you a lot of details on that and how to 1654 01:32:30.869 --> 01:32:34.350 go VIP in order to get access to that. Because 1655 01:32:34.850 --> 01:32:38.420 wrestling history is so fascinating. It's so entertaining. We give 1656 01:32:38.439 --> 01:32:40.279 you a ton of new shows covering current events. We 1657 01:32:40.300 --> 01:32:43.079 give you a ton of new shows covering history. But 1658 01:32:43.699 --> 01:32:48.619 it's really a unique opportunity to hear shows that were 1659 01:32:48.659 --> 01:32:53.470 done in real time in history on some of today's 1660 01:32:53.649 --> 01:32:56.369 with guests who are still active today. Paul Heyman, Mick Foley, 1661 01:32:56.729 --> 01:32:58.590 Terry Funk, for that matter, at an indie show recently. 1662 01:33:00.369 --> 01:33:03.449 Still active, still relevant to what's going on today, but 1663 01:33:03.489 --> 01:33:05.430 hear them at a different stage of their careers or 1664 01:33:05.470 --> 01:33:10.239 hear fans like you 25, 30 years ago, or 15 1665 01:33:10.239 --> 01:33:12.340 or 18 years ago, like the Total Chaos Radio show, 1666 01:33:12.340 --> 01:33:15.239 16 years ago, I guess, talking about the events of 1667 01:33:15.260 --> 01:33:18.260 the day and analyzing it and comparing how fans looked 1668 01:33:18.300 --> 01:33:20.699 at wrestling then to now. Are the problems similar? Are 1669 01:33:20.720 --> 01:33:23.340 they different? Did things work out the way we feared 1670 01:33:23.520 --> 01:33:27.090 or hoped based on the time that the show took place? 1671 01:33:27.119 --> 01:33:31.670 So check this out. Here's some details on it. As 1672 01:33:31.710 --> 01:33:34.270 a PWTorch Livecast listener, you have a problem as a 1673 01:33:34.310 --> 01:33:42.520 PWTorch VIP member. Thanks, everybody, once again for joining me 1674 01:33:42.560 --> 01:33:48.319 here today on the PWTorch Livecast. And join Travis Bryant 1675 01:33:48.359 --> 01:33:52.029 tomorrow without Bruce Mitchell, who will be on assignment for 1676 01:33:52.069 --> 01:33:54.989 good reason. And Travis and a co-host will be joining 1677 01:33:55.010 --> 01:34:00.470 you at 7 Eastern tomorrow here at PWTorchLivecast.com. It's a 1678 01:34:00.489 --> 01:34:02.789 primetime edition for some of you who listen on demand 1679 01:34:03.340 --> 01:34:05.539 and aren't able to listen live to this show. That 1680 01:34:05.600 --> 01:34:07.899 is an opportunity to call in if you have your 1681 01:34:07.960 --> 01:34:11.869 evening open. and participate in the show with questions and comments, uh, 1682 01:34:12.420 --> 01:34:15.500 ongoing topic this week that I got into, uh, with 1683 01:34:15.520 --> 01:34:18.239 Todd Martin on the VIP audio show, the fix yesterday, 1684 01:34:18.979 --> 01:34:22.279 and that, uh, Travis Bryan had some comments on regarding 1685 01:34:22.319 --> 01:34:25.520 what Sean Radican had to say, uh, on Twitter at 1686 01:34:25.560 --> 01:34:31.020 PW torch is TJ Perkins, a good choice, a bad choice, 1687 01:34:31.260 --> 01:34:33.859 a very good choice, or a horrible choice to be 1688 01:34:33.899 --> 01:34:39.869 cruiserweight champion, um, for WWE. So, um, Check out tomorrow's 1689 01:34:39.909 --> 01:34:41.510 show to hear what Travis has to say about that 1690 01:34:41.569 --> 01:34:45.060 and give your two cents on that hot topic right now, 1691 01:34:45.479 --> 01:34:48.399 among others. Check it out tomorrow, 7 Eastern. Thanks, everybody. 1692 01:34:48.420 --> 01:34:51.819 Until next time, Wade Keller thanking you and signing off. 1693 01:34:53.079 --> 01:35:10.569 This is LifeCast. Your time is valuable. Go VIP and 1694 01:35:10.609 --> 01:35:15.729 listen to our shows commercial-free. A nice streamlined listening experience. pwtorch.com 1695 01:35:16.010 --> 01:35:19.760 slash govip for full details on a commercial-free listening experience. 1696 01:35:20.119 --> 01:35:22.640 And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom 1697 01:35:22.699 --> 01:35:25.520 feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme 1698 01:35:25.840 --> 01:35:29.039 and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access 1699 01:35:29.119 --> 01:35:34.369 our ad-free website with VIP exclusive content. pwtorch.com slash govip. 1700 01:35:34.779 --> 01:35:36.399 Your time is valuable, and that's one of the reasons 1701 01:35:36.420 --> 01:35:42.210 we offer VIP membership, pwtorch.com slash govip. You can participate 1702 01:35:42.229 --> 01:35:45.250 in the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast by emailing your 1703 01:35:45.310 --> 01:35:49.989 question or topic to wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com. You can also 1704 01:35:50.029 --> 01:35:53.680 participate in the Wade Keller Post Shows by emailing wadekellerpostshow 1705 01:35:53.939 --> 01:35:58.220 at gmail.com during or right after Raw, Dynamite, or SmackDown. 1706 01:35:58.319 --> 01:36:00.460 Let your voice, let your opinions be heard on our 1707 01:36:00.520 --> 01:36:04.479 shows via email, wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com for the flagship and 1708 01:36:04.520 --> 01:36:09.949 wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com for our post shows. It's next-level coverage 1709 01:36:09.970 --> 01:36:12.550 that you come to expect from the PW Torch brand. 1710 01:36:12.770 --> 01:36:17.409 No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, no clickbait, 1711 01:36:17.470 --> 01:36:22.079 no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, and fascinating 1712 01:36:22.100 --> 01:36:25.939 flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away from the 1713 01:36:26.000 -->

01:36:28.100 vacuous social media experience that I know many of you 1714 01:36:28.140 --> 01:36:30.960 regret once you get lost in it for minutes, if 1715 01:36:31.000 --> 01:36:33.840 not hours at a time, and settle in for high-quality 1716 01:36:33.880 --> 01:36:38.380 PW Torch-branded wrestling coverage. Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti 1717 01:36:38.399 --> 01:36:40.739 when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, 1718 01:36:40.779 --> 01:36:42.670 now you can listen to him every week on the 1719 01:36:42.729 --> 01:36:45.989 Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast. Here's Nick to tell 1720 01:36:46.010 --> 01:36:46.390 you more. 1721 01:36:46.510 --> 01:36:48.949 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with 1722 01:36:48.970 --> 01:36:51.050 the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's 1723 01:36:51.109 --> 01:36:54.029 comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. 1724 01:36:54.109 --> 01:36:57.020 From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. 1725 01:36:57.180 --> 01:36:59.380 The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest 1726 01:36:59.399 --> 01:36:59.979 club in town. 1727 01:37:00.199 --> 01:37:02.000 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling 1728 01:37:02.039 --> 01:37:06.359 life every week, so... Why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com 1729 01:37:06.640 --> 01:37:09.560 slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible 1730 01:37:09.579 --> 01:37:12.880 with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other 1731 01:37:13.020 --> 01:37:15.020 iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream 1732 01:37:15.050 --> 01:37:18.050 directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting 1733 01:37:18.090 --> 01:37:22.789 for you every week at PWTorch VIP. Did you know 1734 01:37:22.810 --> 01:37:26.170 that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your 1735 01:37:26.210 --> 01:37:30.199 favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch Daily Casts? Just go 1736 01:37:30.260 --> 01:37:35.670 to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. 1737 01:37:35.689 --> 01:37:37.689 You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to 1738 01:37:37.710 --> 01:37:39.149 kick the tires a bit and see if you like 1739 01:37:39.170 --> 01:37:41.779 the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you 1740 01:37:41.819 --> 01:37:44.600 can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows like 1741 01:37:44.619 --> 01:37:46.939 the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, 1742 01:37:47.300 --> 01:37:51.369 our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch DataCast lineup. Again, all commercial-free, 1743 01:37:51.409 --> 01:37:54.430 a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, you 1744 01:37:54.449 --> 01:37:57.869 can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with 1745 01:37:57.930 --> 01:37:59.550 Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that I 1746 01:37:59.569 --> 01:38:02.250 host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News Bulletin's 1747 01:38:02.390 --> 01:38:07.149 post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with 1748 01:38:07.180 --> 01:38:10.579 different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go 1749 01:38:10.640 --> 01:38:14.960 to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync it 1750 01:38:14.979 --> 01:38:18.270 up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. 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A PWTorch VIP membership doesn't 1761 01:38:46.670 --> 01:38:48.569 just give you ad-free access to these shows and a 1762 01:38:48.600 --> 01:38:51.300 ton of other VIP-exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you 1763 01:38:51.319 --> 01:38:54.920 also gain access to our unmatched, vast library of wrestling history, 1764 01:38:55.260 --> 01:38:58.359 our contemporaneous week-to-week coverage through our Pro Wrestling Torch weekly 1765 01:38:58.399 --> 01:39:01.500 newsletters dating back to the late 1980s, along with streaming 1766 01:39:01.520 --> 01:39:04.789 and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows from 1767 01:39:04.810 --> 01:39:08.229 the 1990s, including some of my interviews with wrestling's top 1768 01:39:08.329 --> 01:39:12.090 newsmakers in the 90s, and also our podcast library dating 1769 01:39:12.109 --> 01:39:16.109 back to the year 2003. There's no larger... longer-spanning pro 1770 01:39:16.170 --> 01:39:19.670 wrestling podcast library than that that comes with a PWTorch 1771 01:39:19.689 --> 01:39:24.180 VIP membership now approaching 20 years of podcasting. Go VIP 1772 01:39:24.220 --> 01:39:27.079 and dive into our post-pay-per-view roundtables, our coverage of some 1773 01:39:27.119 --> 01:39:31.359 of your favorite eras of wrestling, top-name long-form interviews, and 1774 01:39:31.439 --> 01:39:35.970 special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years. PWTorch.com 1775 01:39:36.069 --> 01:39:39.380 slash go VIP. We have a streamlined sign-up form, and 1776 01:39:39.399 --> 01:39:41.539 you can pay with PayPal or directly with your credit 1777 01:39:41.560 --> 01:39:44.170 card or debit card in one or two minutes. From 1778 01:39:44.210 --> 01:39:46.050 right now, you can be a VIP member and diving 1779 01:39:46.090 --> 01:39:49.289 into our library, pwtorch.com slash govip.