Transkrip penuh untuk Understanding the Trinity: God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit Explained

00:01:46.320 --> 00:01:47.190 could possibly do. 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:47.429 >> Yeah. 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:49.670 >> You brought them back. Uh I think Mrs. 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:52.469 Rivers organized them into Right. And 00:01:52.479 --> 00:01:53.270 then 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:55.590 >> uh they actually watched an episode. 00:01:55.600 --> 00:01:56.789 >> Yeah. That's terrific. 00:01:56.799 --> 00:01:58.789 >> Which is cool. And I would have to say 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:01.670 I've even since that first um episode 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:05.030 that we did um other listeners uh saying 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:06.550 how much they appreciated have 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:08.469 appreciated hearing the answers and 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:08.790 stuff. 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:10.229 >> So it's a bit like the Conquest Boys 00:02:10.239 --> 00:02:12.070 Club thing that we've done and the St. 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:13.510 Jerome's youth group. 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:15.589 >> People seem to like this Q&A kind of 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:16.070 thing. 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:17.670 >> Yeah. Because I mean that's one of the 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:19.110 things that I often will bring up to 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:20.630 people like when you know on our late 00:02:20.640 --> 00:02:23.270 formation weekends or when uh you know 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:25.350 when I'm out in any other format and I 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:27.670 and I know you do this as well, right? 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:29.350 Encouraging people to ask questions 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.070 because generally somebody else has the 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:32.790 same question, 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:33.350 >> right? Right. 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:34.710 >> And they're just they don't feel they 00:02:34.720 --> 00:02:36.390 have a forum to do it or they're, you 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:37.509 know, one of those that isn't going to 00:02:37.519 --> 00:02:39.110 put up their hands and stuff. So, 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:40.710 >> and one of the things I like I'll go out 00:02:40.720 --> 00:02:43.509 and do Q&A where I'm the guy, right? I'm 00:02:43.519 --> 00:02:45.350 the one with the answers and I love 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.470 that. uh and I learn from the angle that 00:02:48.480 --> 00:02:50.390 the question comes from and I you know 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:52.869 I'm I'm forced into new ways of thinking 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:54.229 about it depending on where the question 00:02:54.239 --> 00:02:55.910 comes from. But the cool thing about 00:02:55.920 --> 00:02:58.550 doing it together is I get to do that 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:00.710 and then I get to hear your thing which 00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:01.990 spurs a thing and like 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.070 >> I know which is what why we've loved 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:05.750 doing the podcast in the first place. 00:03:05.760 --> 00:03:08.630 >> So a Q&A with two people coming from 00:03:08.640 --> 00:03:11.110 different angles helps I think we both 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:14.070 learn more from from that. So I I Yeah. 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:15.270 And hopefully maybe that's part of 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.509 what's enjoyable for the audience 00:03:17.519 --> 00:03:19.990 >> for the audience as well. So this week 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.630 the question revolves around like the 00:03:22.640 --> 00:03:25.910 nature of God, Jesus and the trinity, 00:03:25.920 --> 00:03:28.229 >> right? So the big one the central 00:03:28.239 --> 00:03:28.630 question 00:03:28.640 --> 00:03:30.309 >> the central questions, right? 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:33.750 >> Read the the the first question like the 00:03:33.760 --> 00:03:35.030 how did they put that? 00:03:35.040 --> 00:03:38.390 >> So it is what is the difference between 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:41.830 God and Jesus? Are they similar at all? 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:45.830 >> Right? Which on the one hand like 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:47.509 someone might think like well we know 00:03:47.519 --> 00:03:49.750 Jesus is God like right but on the other 00:03:49.760 --> 00:03:52.149 hand like that's actually the whole 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:53.430 question it is 00:03:53.440 --> 00:03:55.190 >> behind the development of the doctrine 00:03:55.200 --> 00:03:56.949 of the trinity. Right. So you have 00:03:56.959 --> 00:03:59.509 >> it was the central question when Jesus 00:03:59.519 --> 00:04:00.869 was walking the earth. 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:01.270 >> Right. 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:04.630 >> Right. Like this is where so much of the 00:04:04.640 --> 00:04:06.789 tension and confusion was coming from. 00:04:06.799 --> 00:04:08.309 >> Who is this guy and what's his 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:10.070 relationship with God? God is the only 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:12.149 one that can forgive sins, but he's just 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:13.990 stood up and told this person their sins 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:14.949 are forgiven. 00:04:14.959 --> 00:04:19.110 >> We were at mass two weeks ago and the 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:22.230 gospel was John the Baptist sent 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:22.629 >> Yes. 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:25.350 >> his messengers to say, "Are you the 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:25.830 one?" 00:04:25.840 --> 00:04:26.469 >> Yeah. 00:04:26.479 --> 00:04:28.150 >> Which is 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:31.110 >> kind It's a form of the same question. 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:34.710 >> And Flannry like it landed on her. You 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:36.550 know, sometimes like something lands in 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.310 a way that it's never landed before. 00:04:38.320 --> 00:04:39.030 Yeah. 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:41.510 >> So, we're sitting in mass and that's the 00:04:41.520 --> 00:04:43.909 reading and as the homaly starting, Flan 00:04:43.919 --> 00:04:46.469 looks over at me and she's like he knows 00:04:46.479 --> 00:04:47.749 he's going to die. 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:48.070 >> Yeah. 00:04:48.080 --> 00:04:50.710 >> John the Baptist is is he's preparing 00:04:50.720 -->

00:04:54.710 for his own death and he has built his 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:58.070 life saying somebody's coming. 00:04:58.080 --> 00:04:58.469 >> Yeah. 00:04:58.479 --> 00:05:01.990 >> And now he's looking at at the immediate 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:05.990 future and he's saying did I waste my 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.990 whole life? Yeah. 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:10.150 >> Was I wrong about you? 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.550 >> Yep. He's focused his whole life on one 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:13.110 thing, 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:13.670 >> right? 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:14.070 >> And 00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:16.070 >> and it's going to be over inside a week 00:05:16.080 --> 00:05:17.909 or whatever it is. 00:05:17.919 --> 00:05:22.469 >> And he's he says, "Before I go, can you 00:05:22.479 --> 00:05:25.270 just give me the assurance? 00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:25.749 >> Yeah. 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:27.590 >> That that I was on the right track 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:29.430 here." Right. And you can imagine a 00:05:29.440 --> 00:05:31.029 person, this doesn't mean John didn't 00:05:31.039 --> 00:05:32.390 have conviction over the course of his 00:05:32.400 --> 00:05:35.189 ministry. You can imagine a person who 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:37.909 who had a ministry their whole life that 00:05:37.919 --> 00:05:39.749 they did with utmost conviction and with 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:42.870 a week left on the clock goes was that 00:05:42.880 --> 00:05:43.430 >> was that 00:05:43.440 --> 00:05:45.430 >> was that the use of my life? Was that 00:05:45.440 --> 00:05:47.350 what I should have done with this 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:49.670 limited time I have here? So she was 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:52.390 like Flan was like 00:05:52.400 --> 00:05:54.550 >> she saw something clearly for the first 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.590 time the paos of the question from John 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:00.150 the Baptist like are you really the one? 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.950 >> Yeah. um which is a form of this kind of 00:06:02.960 --> 00:06:03.909 question. Yeah. 00:06:03.919 --> 00:06:06.390 >> In the gospels, but then in church 00:06:06.400 --> 00:06:09.029 history when you look at so that we've 00:06:09.039 --> 00:06:10.070 said this before on the show, the 00:06:10.080 --> 00:06:12.230 doctrine of the trinity, the word 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:13.990 trinity isn't in the New Testament. 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:14.710 >> No. 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:17.110 >> The um 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:20.309 systematic articulation that you know 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:22.550 shows up in the creeds for example. 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:23.350 >> Yeah. 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:24.150 >> In the early church 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:25.749 >> of the relationship between those 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:26.790 persons. Yeah. 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:29.189 >> Is not in scripture. What we have in 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:32.710 scripture is is a whole range of 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:33.990 statements. Yeah. 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.230 >> Mostly in the gospels, but also in Paul. 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:38.629 >> Yeah. And they're assertive statements 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:42.550 about a particular like reality of God 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:44.550 >> that are hard to kind of 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:45.590 >> reconcile. Yeah. 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.270 >> So there are times, you know, the father 00:06:47.280 --> 00:06:48.629 and I are one. Y 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:51.029 >> So that's one kind of a statement. Yeah. 00:06:51.039 --> 00:06:53.110 >> Uh whoever has seen me has seen the No 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:54.230 one has seen the father, but whoever has 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:55.590 seen me has seen the father. Okay. 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:57.590 That's one kind of a thing. Uh, a little 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.230 obscure, a little confusing, right? And 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:02.469 then also like we talked about this last 00:07:02.479 --> 00:07:04.790 episode, like uh when's the time? I 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:05.909 don't know. Only the father knows. 00:07:05.919 --> 00:07:06.710 >> Only the father knows. 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:07.510 >> Wait a minute. 00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:08.710 >> But you just said 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:10.390 >> but you just 00:07:10.400 --> 00:07:11.350 >> Yeah. 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:14.790 >> Right. So what you have for like 3 400 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:18.870 years in the early church is a kind of 00:07:18.880 --> 00:07:21.110 sifting of the evidence 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:22.870 >> and there's the advocate too, 00:07:22.880 --> 00:07:24.870 >> right? The advocate, the pariclete, 00:07:24.880 --> 00:07:25.830 right? However you want to read. 00:07:25.840 --> 00:07:27.270 >> So the Holy Spirit is not in the 00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:27.589 question. 00:07:27.599 --> 00:07:28.870 >> Not in the question, but it's in the 00:07:28.880 --> 00:07:29.909 followup. Yeah. 00:07:29.919 --> 00:07:33.270 >> It's it's it's implied and it it happens 00:07:33.280 --> 00:07:35.830 exactly in this order in church history. 00:07:35.840 --> 00:07:37.270 The first question is, what's the 00:07:37.280 --> 00:07:39.029 relationship between Jesus and God? Or 00:07:39.039 --> 00:07:41.029 to be more precise, Jesus and the 00:07:41.039 --> 00:07:41.670 father. 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:42.309 >> Yeah. 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:44.550 >> Um and then they're like, oh, and then 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:46.230 there's this other character here, too. 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:48.070 And how does that fit? So the the Holy 00:07:48.080 --> 00:07:49.510 Spirit, if you look at the history of 00:07:49.520 --> 00:07:52.950 the creeds, the Holy Spirit is the 00:07:52.960 --> 00:07:54.629 question that gets tackled after the 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:56.070 father-son question 00:07:56.080 --> 00:07:58.550 >> is tackled and on the same principles. 00:07:58.560 --> 00:07:58.869 >> Yeah. 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:00.950 >> Right. It's like, okay, now we know how 00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:01.670 to

do this. 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:04.629 >> Yeah. like we've you know the first big 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:07.990 question was Jesus and and God or the 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:08.710 father 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.270 >> and then it was okay now we now we have 00:08:11.280 --> 00:08:13.670 a rough understanding of how this 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:14.869 process works 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:17.189 >> and now we can the the holy spirit sort 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:20.710 of follows in the same process um but so 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:22.710 the yeah so what is the relationship 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:24.469 between Jesus and God are they similar 00:08:24.479 --> 00:08:25.350 at all 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:27.749 >> well one straightforward answer is Jesus 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:28.790 is God 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:29.270 >> y 00:08:29.280 --> 00:08:31.350 >> but that obviously is not enough to 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.029 satis satisfy or it wouldn't have taken 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:35.990 the church 350 years to you know or 300 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:37.190 however many 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.829 >> Nika we're celebrating the anniversary 00:08:39.839 --> 00:08:42.469 of Nika right now which is 325. So if 00:08:42.479 --> 00:08:45.590 Jesus dies in 330 or 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:47.509 >> so yeah almost 300 years 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:50.949 >> almost 300 years to get that sorted. So 00:08:50.959 --> 00:08:53.350 Jesus is God. 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:53.750 >> Yeah. 00:08:53.760 --> 00:08:58.870 >> But God is not a mono. 00:08:58.880 --> 00:09:02.150 >> Well, God obviously not the theologian. 00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:03.750 That's what you did, right? 00:09:03.760 --> 00:09:05.509 >> Grade 9, 10 students. You broke our 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:06.310 theologians. 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:08.790 >> Well, well, and you're not the first 00:09:08.800 --> 00:09:11.030 ones, right? Not just me, but the 00:09:11.040 --> 00:09:13.269 theologians in general. This was a 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:14.630 problem. So, 00:09:14.640 --> 00:09:16.150 >> the problem you're running into is that 00:09:16.160 --> 00:09:18.710 the there's no real language. That's 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:20.389 >> We had to make it up. We had to make up 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:22.389 new words or repurpose words. 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:24.070 >> Repurpose some words. Yeah. 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.150 >> Okay. Here's how I want to say it. Jesus 00:09:26.160 --> 00:09:28.790 is God. But that means that God is not 00:09:28.800 --> 00:09:30.630 exactly what you thought God was. Yes. 00:09:30.640 --> 00:09:32.710 >> That's how I want to say it. Right. So 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:34.870 Jesus is God 00:09:34.880 --> 00:09:37.910 >> and the understanding was God as 00:09:37.920 --> 00:09:42.389 creator, right? Um and then uh which not 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.829 just Judaism but lots of peoples 00:09:45.839 --> 00:09:47.509 throughout the world get to something 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:50.150 like monotheism with a creator god 00:09:50.160 --> 00:09:51.030 creator god 00:09:51.040 --> 00:09:54.070 >> right u when when missionaries encounter 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:55.990 indigenous people in North America 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:57.110 >> they have a sense of 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.269 >> it's not strict monotheism and I don't 00:09:59.279 --> 00:09:59.829 want like 00:09:59.839 --> 00:10:00.790 >> but it's close 00:10:00.800 --> 00:10:03.430 >> but there's some there's some clear 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:05.990 sense of one creator god regardless of 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:07.590 what else is happening in the divine 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.590 hierarchy and this or that tribe in this 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.110 or that time or place, there's a pretty 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.470 clear sense of a creator god. Uh which 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:16.389 the Bible says like you can discern that 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:17.829 from looking at nature. Yeah. 00:10:17.839 --> 00:10:19.350 >> Uh paying attention to the world and 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:21.190 being honest. Right. So that's it's not 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:23.030 uncommon that cultures would get to the 00:10:23.040 --> 00:10:24.949 point of a creator god. And that's good 00:10:24.959 --> 00:10:25.670 and true. 00:10:25.680 --> 00:10:26.150 >> Yes. 00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:30.069 >> Right. Um, but then if Jesus is God, 00:10:30.079 --> 00:10:32.310 Jesus is not just straightforwardly the 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:33.430 creator 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:36.069 >> even though he is the creator, but he's 00:10:36.079 --> 00:10:38.230 in some relationship with the great, 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:39.750 right? In the beginning was 00:10:39.760 --> 00:10:42.389 >> the word and the word was with God and 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:44.230 the word was God. 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:45.670 >> Right? So you're putting all those 00:10:45.680 --> 00:10:49.350 layers in. So what we and I was just 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:51.350 going to say and that in spite of Nika 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:53.990 not happening for almost 300 years that 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.069 wording from John's gospel happens 00:10:56.079 --> 00:10:58.870 within the first hundred years years 00:10:58.880 --> 00:11:01.590 >> that John is putting this together right 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:03.750 yeah and probably less than that cuz 00:11:03.760 --> 00:11:05.829 it's within a 100 years of Jesus's 00:11:05.839 --> 00:11:08.150 birth. So it's you're looking at like 70 00:11:08.160 --> 00:11:10.069 years from from his death 00:11:10.079 --> 00:11:11.670 >> that they're already working through 00:11:11.680 --> 00:11:12.630 that reality. 00:11:12.640 --> 00:11:15.030 >> Right. So and then that articulation 00:11:15.040 --> 00:11:18.310 from John is pretty informative for Nika 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:21.190 and whatever comes after right. Um so 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.430 you have right the word was with God and 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:25.670 the word was

God is is labeling exactly 00:11:25.680 --> 00:11:28.710 this dynamic that Jesus is God and also 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.430 is alongside 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.350 >> God in some sense. So one answer one 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:38.310 inadequate answer that emerges in these 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.310 discussions in the early church is Jesus 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:42.870 is the first and highest creature. Yeah, 00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:44.389 >> he's possibility. 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:46.550 >> He's like a demigod. He was like created 00:11:46.560 --> 00:11:48.550 before all the other things, 00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:51.269 >> but he's but but still created. 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:53.030 >> And the creed says, "No, he wasn't 00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:55.829 created. He was begotten, not made, 00:11:55.839 --> 00:11:58.790 conssubstantial with the father of one 00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:01.990 substance, the same kind of being as the 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:03.990 father." So this is this is interesting 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:07.590 because when I teach the trinity um in 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:10.230 lay formation, we actually start from 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.230 that that same standpoint with John's 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.829 gospel then going back to um and then 00:12:15.839 --> 00:12:18.230 talking about Aras and then going back 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:21.269 to the first chapter of Genesis where 00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:23.990 the word is spoken for the first time. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:24.389 >> Right. 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:26.069 >> Right. Giving rise to all creation. 00:12:26.079 --> 00:12:28.389 Right. Which is kind of where Nika goes 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:29.430 back to 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:31.030 >> and stuff with that. Right. And even 00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:32.550 John, right? Through him everything was 00:12:32.560 --> 00:12:34.550 made, not any nothing was made without 00:12:34.560 --> 00:12:36.629 right that kind of sense. And which 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:38.870 forces you to recognize that 00:12:38.880 --> 00:12:40.790 conssubstantial nature, 00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:41.190 >> right, 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:43.910 >> of them, right? When God speaks, the 00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:46.790 word that God speaks is God itself, 00:12:46.800 --> 00:12:47.269 >> right? 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.790 >> Cuz the only thing that God God is this, 00:12:50.800 --> 00:12:53.829 we talk about God as being the simplest, 00:12:53.839 --> 00:12:54.150 right, 00:12:54.160 --> 00:12:56.389 >> of of 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:59.269 essences, right? Right. Of being, right? 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:02.790 which means that the only essence that 00:13:02.800 --> 00:13:05.670 God has to share in any capacity 00:13:05.680 --> 00:13:06.230 >> is Godself 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:07.190 >> is God's own self. 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:08.230 >> Right. Right. Right. 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.389 >> So that's how that all kind of starts to 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:10.949 come together. 00:13:10.959 --> 00:13:13.110 >> And you mentioned Aras. So Aras for 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:14.949 those who who aren't familiar. Aras, 00:13:14.959 --> 00:13:16.710 that's where we get the term Aryanism. 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:18.389 And Aryanism 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:20.629 among other things is this claim f first 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.310 and foremost is the claim that Jesus is 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:23.590 the highest creature. 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.150 >> Yeah. U and and and that's what's pushed 00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:27.990 back against in the Nyine creed which we 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:29.990 celebrate the anniversary of 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.990 >> in 2025 right uh that no Jesus is fully 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.069 God he's not he's not just one step down 00:13:36.079 --> 00:13:37.590 higher than all the rest of us but one 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.069 step down that's angels that's where 00:13:40.079 --> 00:13:43.430 angels fit right uh angels are are that 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:45.990 first creation but Jesus is not a 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.069 creature and so I mean that's a that's a 00:13:48.079 --> 00:13:49.829 key thing if you're saying is Jesus God 00:13:49.839 --> 00:13:51.509 or what's the relationship Jesus is not 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:53.750 a creature Jesus is God but Jesus Jesus 00:13:53.760 --> 00:13:57.189 is the second person of the trinity. So 00:13:57.199 --> 00:13:59.750 Jesus is God incarnate but there are 00:13:59.760 --> 00:14:01.509 three persons of the trinity father son 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.550 and spirit and not each of them becomes 00:14:04.560 --> 00:14:08.389 incarnate only the second person of the 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:12.470 trinity uh the son becomes incarnate 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.470 which in John's gospel is called the 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:16.790 word and so one way of understanding 00:14:16.800 --> 00:14:18.470 which of the three persons of the 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.870 trinity becomes incarnate god's 00:14:20.880 --> 00:14:23.189 selfexpression 00:14:23.199 --> 00:14:26.230 so the father is the in a sense the 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:27.509 originating principle. 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:28.710 >> Mhm. 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.350 >> The father speaks 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.870 God the father expresses Godself so 00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:37.189 perfectly that it is a person. 00:14:37.199 --> 00:14:37.509 >> Yeah. 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.189 >> Now imagine this. We have we have 00:14:39.199 --> 00:14:41.350 stories about this. Right. Think of um 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:42.470 Pinocchio. 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:42.949 >> Yeah. 00:14:42.959 --> 00:14:45.509 >> Right. So Japetto 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:47.509 can create something. He's really good 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:48.389 at what he does. 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:48.710 >> Yes. 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.030 >> Right. Jeppetto makes uh the best 00:14:51.040 --> 00:14:51.829 puppets. 00:14:51.839 --> 00:14:52.470

>> Mhm. 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:53.829 >> But they're only puppets. 00:14:53.839 --> 00:14:54.150 >> Yeah. 00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:56.389 >> Right. So the human creative endeavor 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.269 would want if it could for its 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:02.150 self-expression to be so perfect that it 00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:05.990 was I love this line a real boy. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.710 >> Right. But we we don't do that. We can 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:10.389 make puppets. We can make all kinds of 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:12.389 things in our self-expression that are 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:13.509 really good. 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:15.110 >> Yeah. And we keep trying 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:16.550 >> and we keep trying. That's 00:15:16.560 --> 00:15:18.470 >> but and when we do that we are chasing 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:21.189 the trinitarian life. when we want to 00:15:21.199 --> 00:15:23.590 express ourselves so perfect that it's 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:25.590 unmistakably us. 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:26.150 >> Yeah. 00:15:26.160 --> 00:15:27.670 >> Right. That's what we want. And and and 00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:29.590 we lack it in in the fact that I tried 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:31.829 to say something 5 minutes ago and I 00:15:31.839 --> 00:15:33.590 stumbled and I retracted it and I said 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:35.269 it again differently because my 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:37.590 self-expression did not perfectly 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:39.030 capture what I wanted. 00:15:39.040 --> 00:15:39.910 >> Yeah. 00:15:39.920 --> 00:15:43.110 >> And so there was something lacking in my 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:44.870 self-expression. And the doctrine of the 00:15:44.880 --> 00:15:47.670 trinity says there is nothing lacking in 00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:48.870 God's self-expression. God's 00:15:48.880 --> 00:15:51.110 self-expression is so perfect that it is 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:51.829 God. 00:15:51.839 --> 00:15:52.310 >> Yeah. 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:53.829 >> Right. So that's step one. 00:15:53.839 --> 00:15:59.269 >> Okay. So at the same time what God is 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:03.030 communicating God's self to very limited 00:16:03.040 --> 00:16:05.749 creatures and creation which requires 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:08.389 God in that self-communication to 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.509 intentionally limit God's self 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:12.069 >> right 00:16:12.079 --> 00:16:14.949 >> as part of so God is able to limit 00:16:14.959 --> 00:16:17.749 himself without diminishing 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.710 >> right I think this leads to like why the 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.790 second person why not the father why not 00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:25.110 the spirit why is the second person, the 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:27.509 one who becomes incarnate in Jesus. 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:28.230 >> Yeah. 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:31.509 >> The self, God expresses God's self first 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:34.470 in in eternity, in the trinitarian life 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:36.069 and and that's the second person of the 00:16:36.079 --> 00:16:36.870 Trinity. 00:16:36.880 --> 00:16:38.550 >> And we'll get circle back to the Holy 00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:39.749 Spirit in a bit. 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:40.069 >> Yeah. 00:16:40.079 --> 00:16:44.870 >> Um God expresses Godself in history uh 00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:47.189 well through creation, through the 00:16:47.199 --> 00:16:48.790 relationship with Israel. These are 00:16:48.800 --> 00:16:51.269 expressions. And so it's so it's through 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.030 the word that this happens. Through him 00:16:53.040 --> 00:16:54.470 all things were made. That's what it 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:56.470 says in in the beginning of John's 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.069 gospel as well. Right? So there's a 00:16:58.079 --> 00:17:00.310 relationship even though the father is 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:02.389 primarily creator. It's not independent 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.789 of the other persons of the trinity but 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:06.630 through the logos through the word 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.150 through God's self expression things 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:11.029 were made. So, so Christ or or or the 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:14.390 second person is present in the actions 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:17.270 of of the father, the creator, right? 00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:21.189 >> We we attribute certain actions to 00:17:21.199 --> 00:17:23.110 different members of the trinity not to 00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:25.189 the exclusion of the other members but 00:17:25.199 --> 00:17:29.110 to label the the particular relations, 00:17:29.120 --> 00:17:31.909 right? So, the father is creator, the 00:17:31.919 --> 00:17:33.990 son is redeemer, the the spirit is 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:35.990 sanctifier. That doesn't mean the others 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.590 aren't involved. Mhm. 00:17:37.600 --> 00:17:39.190 >> It it labels something about the 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.190 relationship between each and we won't 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:42.710 go into all the details but let's just 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.230 go into Jesus the sec the son who comes 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.710 to us on your point about 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:50.789 >> God's self-expression is perfect but 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:53.909 then it is accommodated to our situation 00:17:53.919 --> 00:17:55.990 and our needs in the language of the 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.430 incarnation there's language of 00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:59.750 condescension which doesn't mean what we 00:17:59.760 --> 00:18:02.390 often mean by condescension uh right 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:04.230 >> condescension in in in kind of 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.909 theological terms is actually not a like 00:18:07.919 --> 00:18:09.110 >> it's actually quite nice. 00:18:09.120 --> 00:18:09.590 >> It is 00:18:09.600 --> 00:18:11.350 >> right. We think condescension is like 00:18:11.360 --> 00:18:12.789 you're making it pretty clear that 00:18:12.799 -->

00:18:14.789 you're above us and you belittle us. But 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:16.390 in this sense it's you come to our 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.470 level. It's when it's when I'm 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:20.390 disciplining a child 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.029 >> who is 3 feet tall. Yes. 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.669 >> And I don't discipline her from up here. 00:18:25.679 --> 00:18:25.909 Yeah. 00:18:25.919 --> 00:18:28.789 >> I go down on one knee so that I'm eye to 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.110 eye with her and I speak to her in a 00:18:31.120 --> 00:18:33.830 gentle voice. Yeah. at her level so so 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:36.630 that I'm not overpowering her. 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:39.270 >> That's right. And using terms that speak 00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:41.909 to her and would be understandable by 00:18:41.919 --> 00:18:42.470 her. 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:43.190 >> Right. Yeah. 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.510 >> Right. So that's the condescension of 00:18:45.520 --> 00:18:46.710 the incarnation. 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:48.870 >> And we actually understand that first 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.669 act of condescension was was uh 00:18:51.679 --> 00:18:53.750 scriptural and in history itself. 00:18:53.760 --> 00:18:54.150 >> Right. 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.190 >> Right. God first condescends when he 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.990 speaks to Abraham and says, you know, 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.750 I'm gonna or walks with Adam and Eve in 00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:02.070 the garden. 00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:03.510 >> Walks with Adam and Eve in the garden, 00:19:03.520 --> 00:19:05.510 right? Wrestles with Jacob in the 00:19:05.520 --> 00:19:06.070 desert, right? 00:19:06.080 --> 00:19:08.470 >> God engages us at our level because we 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:09.590 can't 00:19:09.600 --> 00:19:10.710 >> engage him at his. 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:11.750 >> Exactly. Right. 00:19:11.760 --> 00:19:14.630 >> Um and so this is appropriate for the 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.390 second person of the Trinity who is 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:18.470 God's self-expression. 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:20.950 >> Right. Because expression can be 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:22.710 modulated to the audience. 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:23.270 >> Yes. 00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:24.870 >> Right. And so there's there's lots of 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.190 beautiful stuff uh in the in the fathers 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.950 that talk about this even about um Jesus 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.710 for example not having certain knowledge 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.549 which is a kind of a mystery in 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.070 scripture right where Jesus claims to 00:19:38.080 --> 00:19:39.830 not know things you end up with these 00:19:39.840 --> 00:19:41.430 weird interpretations right who touched 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:42.870 the hem of my cloak 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:44.789 >> you're like okay is that a stunt 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.950 >> does he is he is he is he just doing 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.430 this for effect or does he actually not 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.909 know now scripture itself does not 00:19:51.919 --> 00:19:53.430 actually indicate that's a matter of 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:55.029 interpretation whether you think Jesus 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.190 is stunting or whether he actually 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:58.150 doesn't know who touches 00:19:58.160 --> 00:19:59.510 >> because there's other places where he 00:19:59.520 --> 00:20:00.870 seems to know everything. He knows 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:02.310 everything about Nathaniel. 00:20:02.320 --> 00:20:04.630 >> Right. Right. Or come MEET THIS MAN WHO 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.830 TOLD ME EVERYTHING ABOUT MYSELF. RIGHT. 00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:12.150 >> Um and so as a Catholic, you are free to 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.150 believe that Jesus didn't know who 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:15.750 touched the hem of his cloak or that he 00:20:15.760 --> 00:20:17.830 was stunting. That's open to you. What 00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:20.070 you're not free to do as a Catholic is 00:20:20.080 --> 00:20:23.029 insist on the stunting interpretation 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.110 because you insist that Jesus was 00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:27.990 omnisient in his in his world human 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:28.549 knowing 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:30.950 >> and yet we talked about this in the last 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:32.789 episode. Jesus is also very clear that 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:34.630 he doesn't know the hour or the day of 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:35.430 the end. Right. 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:37.270 >> And there are there are passages in the 00:20:37.280 --> 00:20:40.230 fathers that talk about his ignorance 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.310 being something he took on for our sake 00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:43.190 in the incarnation. 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.149 >> Yeah. Opening chapters of Luke's gospel, 00:20:46.159 --> 00:20:48.710 right? He grows in understanding. 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:49.990 >> How do you grow in understanding if 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:51.669 you're already omnicient in in the 00:20:51.679 --> 00:20:52.310 manger? 00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:52.710 >> Yeah. 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.750 >> Right. So there's there's so taking on 00:20:55.760 --> 00:20:57.669 the process of human knowing and 00:20:57.679 --> 00:20:59.750 learning in a fully human way 00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:00.149 >> Yeah. 00:21:00.159 --> 00:21:01.510 >> is part of the condescension 00:21:01.520 --> 00:21:04.070 >> and yet being able to remain fully God, 00:21:04.080 --> 00:21:04.470 >> right, 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:05.669 >> in that whole process. 00:21:05.679 --> 00:21:07.190 >> But there was something there was 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:09.510 something cloaked, 00:21:09.520 --> 00:21:11.110 >> for lack of a better term, about his 00:21:11.120 --> 00:21:13.190 divinity that that was sort of willingly 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:14.310 taken on. Yeah. 00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:16.870 >> Right. um that is in a certain sense

00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:18.710 more appropriate to the second person of 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:20.070 the trinity 00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:22.070 >> as self-expression right because 00:21:22.080 --> 00:21:23.750 expression can be modulated to the 00:21:23.760 --> 00:21:24.549 audience 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:26.149 >> so there's something particular about 00:21:26.159 --> 00:21:26.870 that right 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:31.029 >> yeah so then were the two at all alike 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:31.510 >> yes 00:21:31.840 --> 00:21:33.990 >> the father and I are one he who has seen 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.029 me has seen the father 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:35.990 >> has seen the father yeah 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:37.350 >> so there is a unity 00:21:37.360 --> 00:21:39.190 >> the word was with god and the word was 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.029 god like that that's those are all 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:42.390 pretty definitive yes 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.789 >> so Jesus is god now interestingly before 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.190 the incarnation. I mean, if you want to 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.029 be really careful, you don't call him 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.190 Jesus before the incarnation. 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:51.510 >> Yeah. 00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:52.870 >> You would refer to the second person of 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:54.950 the trinity or the word or the logos or 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:55.669 some 00:21:55.679 --> 00:21:56.230 >> Yeah. 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:57.669 >> articulation like that. 00:21:57.679 --> 00:21:58.070 >> Yeah. 00:21:58.080 --> 00:22:01.430 >> He becomes Jesus the man. 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:03.029 >> Yeah. When he enters history, 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.870 >> when he enters history, he become right. 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.990 So, so G properly speaking, Jesus is the 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.029 man God at that begins at the point of 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:15.029 incarnation. Now, of course, the second 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.029 person of the Trinity who is incarnate 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.789 as and in Jesus exists from eternity, 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.110 >> but the incarnation does not exist from 00:22:23.120 --> 00:22:25.190 eternity. So, you can I mean, it's fine 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.630 to be a little 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.830 >> little loose with your language 00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:29.110 depending on your context. 00:22:29.120 --> 00:22:31.190 >> Well, we live in we live in every 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.789 everything we're living in is like after 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:34.789 the fact, right, at all. Right. 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:36.310 >> And so, when I talk to my kids, I'm not 00:22:36.320 --> 00:22:38.549 going to get super picky and there's a 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.149 way in which it's perfectly true to say 00:22:40.159 --> 00:22:42.470 Jesus has existed for all eternity. 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:42.710 Yeah, 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:44.630 >> but if you want to be super precise, you 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:46.789 say the second person of the trinity or 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.830 the logos or the word has existed for 00:22:49.840 --> 00:22:51.909 all eternity and became incarnate. 00:22:51.919 --> 00:22:54.310 >> Yeah. Entered history, became incarnate 00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:56.149 and then died and 00:22:56.159 --> 00:22:56.710 >> rose again. 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:57.510 >> Rose again. 00:22:57.520 --> 00:23:02.149 >> And now humanity is incorporated into 00:23:02.159 --> 00:23:03.830 the trinitarian life in this perfect 00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:04.390 way. 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:04.789 >> Yeah. 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.270 >> First in Jesus 00:23:07.280 --> 00:23:08.549 >> for the sake of the rest of us. 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:10.390 >> That's right. And then through Jesus 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:11.190 with the rest of us. 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:13.669 >> The rest of us. Right? We are called to 00:23:13.679 --> 00:23:16.149 that fullness of trinitarian life. 00:23:16.159 --> 00:23:19.190 >> Um and so this is I mean this is kind of 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.029 part of the scandal of the incarnation 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:24.549 is he takes on human nature but then at 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:26.230 his death he doesn't leave it behind. 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:26.870 >> Yeah. 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.270 >> Right. So so the trinity So then is it 00:23:29.280 --> 00:23:31.990 accurate to say that the trinity itself 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:33.830 after the resurrection or at the 00:23:33.840 --> 00:23:35.350 incarnation 00:23:35.360 --> 00:23:38.070 is now altered 00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:40.470 in some way? Okay. It seems weird. It 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:42.710 doesn't seem right. And yet I don't know 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.110 again limited of language. 00:23:45.120 --> 00:23:47.270 >> The reality of it is different now. 00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:49.430 >> So the tradition 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.110 wrestles with how to say this. 00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:51.669 >> Yes. 00:23:51.679 --> 00:23:53.990 >> Right. So on the one hand, God is 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:54.950 unalterable. 00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:55.430 >> Yeah. 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:58.149 >> Uh and on the So what the what the 00:23:58.159 --> 00:24:01.590 tradition will typically say is God is 00:24:01.600 --> 00:24:04.710 unaltered in God's self, but God is 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.110 changed in God's relationship with 00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:08.149 creation. 00:24:08.159 --> 00:24:09.190 >> Okay? 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.029 >> Right? And so the the the difference 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.350 that was is clear, but we but we're 00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:15.110 nervous about how to articulate the 00:24:15.120 --> 00:24:17.510 difference because we don't want a God 00:24:17.520 --> 00:24:19.110 that is alterable 00:24:19.120 --> 00:24:21.430 >> because after the second person of the 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:24.390 Trinity becomes incarnate, dies and 00:24:24.400 -->

00:24:26.470 rises again, 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:30.549 he returns and like still carries his 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:31.190 humanity. 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.430 >> Humanity is brought into the Trinity. 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:33.750 Yeah. 00:24:33.760 --> 00:24:34.230 >> Yeah. 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:35.190 >> Right. 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:38.630 >> Yeah. So, so the the the typical like 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:40.950 the the simplified version of how the 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:42.789 tradition handles this this question 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:44.950 comes up in other contexts too. I can 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:45.269 imagine 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:47.830 >> right it has to do with um 00:24:47.840 --> 00:24:50.630 >> the problem of evil. It shows up in uh 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.350 it it shows up in in a bunch of things 00:24:53.360 --> 00:24:56.549 and the general form of the answer is 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.470 God is un in unaltered in Godself but 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.909 altered in relation to whatever the 00:25:03.919 --> 00:25:04.710 particular is 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.950 >> the potential for a relationship for 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.029 that intimate relationship with humanity 00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:11.909 is now like a full reality right 00:25:11.919 --> 00:25:14.310 >> cuz that's what God wanted in the garden 00:25:14.320 --> 00:25:16.230 >> was this like Adam and Eve in the garden 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:19.190 are sharing in the life of God Right? 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:21.750 >> That's part of the perfection of Eden. 00:25:21.760 --> 00:25:23.750 >> You you don't want an articulation that 00:25:23.760 --> 00:25:26.310 makes God like you can easily like tweak 00:25:26.320 --> 00:25:28.549 and manipulate and alter God. That's 00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.390 like the danger on the one side. 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:32.470 >> But if you if you double down on that to 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:34.630 the degree that the incarnation makes no 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:35.510 difference. 00:25:35.520 --> 00:25:35.909 >> No. 00:25:35.919 --> 00:25:37.430 >> You're like, "Okay, so what's the gospel 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:37.590 then?" 00:25:37.600 --> 00:25:39.590 >> Well, it is so different like at you 00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:41.830 know even at mass when we're mingling 00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:43.909 water with wine, right? We're praying 00:25:43.919 --> 00:25:47.029 that that um yeah by the mingling of us 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:48.789 water and wine may we come to share the 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.110 divinity of Christ who humbled himself 00:25:51.120 --> 00:25:52.310 to share in our humanity. 00:25:52.320 --> 00:25:52.870 >> Perfect. 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.510 >> Right. This is that's the articulation 00:25:55.520 --> 00:25:56.149 of it. 00:25:56.159 --> 00:25:57.830 >> Yeah. And if you if you come up with an 00:25:57.840 --> 00:26:01.190 articulation that preserves God 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:05.350 but sacrifices that dynamic then

you've 00:26:05.360 --> 00:26:06.230 missed something. 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.310 >> Yeah. Uh I mean this also goes to the 00:26:08.320 --> 00:26:11.269 question of process theology where God 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.310 is kind of evolving alongside creation 00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:16.149 and God is sort of subject to these 00:26:16.159 --> 00:26:18.630 changes in creation in Godself. So the 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:20.070 church rejects 00:26:20.080 --> 00:26:22.630 >> that. That's that's a that's a swerving 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:23.990 in the other direction. That's like 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.190 taking God's involvement with history to 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:28.950 the point where God becomes subject to 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:29.830 history in a certain way. 00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:31.830 >> It is well and one of so one of the 00:26:31.840 --> 00:26:35.510 critiques of religion um and of our 00:26:35.520 --> 00:26:38.710 approach to God is that we are in a 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.110 constantly manufacturing god in our own 00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:44.470 image creating a god to suit ourselves. 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:46.390 This is the balance to that. Right. The 00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:48.870 check or the check to that no actually 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:50.310 god is unalterable. 00:26:50.320 --> 00:26:50.630 >> Right. 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.269 >> Right. This is we we and and the danger 00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.830 in allowing God to be altered in our 00:26:55.840 --> 00:26:57.590 theology and our thinking is that we 00:26:57.600 --> 00:27:01.029 will actually start creating a god of 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:02.710 our own design. 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:06.870 >> And and the the Jewish or the Hebrew 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:09.510 like real breakthrough in terms of 00:27:09.520 --> 00:27:12.390 monotheism cuz there's versions of 00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:14.070 monotheism or what is it called 00:27:14.080 --> 00:27:16.710 henotheism where there's like clearly 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:18.789 one god is like the real god there's 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:20.549 these other gods that are not like 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:22.070 They're not the same thing as the big 00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:26.310 guy, right? Um, but monotheism proper, 00:27:26.320 --> 00:27:28.549 uh, there's a distinction in the Bible, 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:30.630 and this is revolutionary, and it's just 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:32.470 this insistence on the distinction 00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:33.669 between God and creation. 00:27:33.679 --> 00:27:34.070 >> Yeah. 00:27:34.080 --> 00:27:36.710 >> God is not creation. And many many 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.990 religious um imaginings in in human 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.830 history, including, you know, nowadays, 00:27:41.840 --> 00:27:43.750 it's very modern times, we fall into 00:27:43.760 --> 00:27:45.909 that, too. uh to and it's you know it's 00:27:45.919 --> 00:27:48.230 a version of paganism where that 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.149 identifies God to some degree or other 00:27:50.159 --> 00:27:53.110 with creation and once that distinction 00:27:53.120 --> 00:27:56.149 breaks down uh the the biblical insight 00:27:56.159 --> 00:27:58.230 just gets lost like you you you no 00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:00.389 longer have the biblical God once he is 00:28:00.399 --> 00:28:03.750 sort of subject to the created order 00:28:03.760 --> 00:28:06.789 right God is God transcends the created 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:07.510 order 00:28:07.520 --> 00:28:10.710 >> which allows him to enter it without 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.470 being changed in himself 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.029 his relationship with it changes 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.789 >> but in himself God is not 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:21.190 >> and without overwhelming the creation 00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:23.750 >> right it allows it it allows God to be 00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:25.669 God but it also allows creation to be 00:28:25.679 --> 00:28:26.310 creation 00:28:26.320 --> 00:28:30.389 >> yeah right yeah yeah exactly good well I 00:28:30.399 --> 00:28:32.950 think we are yeah I think we tackled 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.190 that to the best of our well we didn't 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:36.710 >> we didn't circle back around to the Holy 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:37.990 Spirit a little 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.310 >> do we want to talk just a minute let's 00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:43.190 do a little fit so in in scriptures 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:45.350 we've What's the rel the first question, 00:28:45.360 --> 00:28:47.510 the most obvious one posed to us by 00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:49.590 Jesus's own language in the gospels. 00:28:49.600 --> 00:28:49.990 >> Yeah. 00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:51.350 >> And the questions of the people around 00:28:51.360 --> 00:28:52.070 him 00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:54.230 >> are what's Jesus's relationship with 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:54.950 God? 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.510 >> Uh and then and then you know this 00:28:57.520 --> 00:28:59.269 process happens where the early church 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:00.789 reads these things and tries to put the 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:02.389 pieces together and make it all fit. But 00:29:02.399 --> 00:29:03.990 then there's there's another piece like 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.789 floating around, right? I will send the 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:10.149 advocate. Um this kind of thing 00:29:10.159 --> 00:29:12.149 >> the advocate. He talks about my spirit 00:29:12.159 --> 00:29:14.789 within you, right? Um and the the early 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:19.029 church recognizes the Holy Spirit as the 00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:21.350 indwelling of the Christ, 00:29:21.360 --> 00:29:21.830 >> right? 00:29:21.840 --> 00:29:22.950 >> Um in some 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.789 >> so the Holy Spirit is clearly divine uh 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:28.789 in the language of scripture and in the 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.110 experience of the early church. 00:29:31.120 --> 00:29:34.070 >> Uh and

then the same question emerges. 00:29:34.080 --> 00:29:37.430 So, okay. So, if if Jesus is God, but 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.310 there's only one God and Jesus is not 00:29:40.320 --> 00:29:41.190 the father. 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:41.750 >> Mhm. 00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:44.950 >> Uh, well, that's so, so we've we've 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.950 cleared the first hurdle in a certain 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:48.870 sense because we've been forced into an 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.269 articulation that allows us to talk 00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:53.110 about distinction within God that 00:29:53.120 --> 00:29:54.710 doesn't make more than one God. 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:56.789 >> Mhm. And then you say, well, there's 00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:58.789 this other character 00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:02.310 >> who also is divine both in Jesus's 00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:04.630 articulation and in our experience of 00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:06.630 the spirit, which by the way, we didn't 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:07.990 mention this, but we have in other 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:10.149 podcasts. It it was the experience of 00:30:10.159 --> 00:30:11.830 Jesus's divine, 00:30:11.840 --> 00:30:13.909 >> not only his articulations, but the 00:30:13.919 --> 00:30:16.070 experience, right? Uh primarily the 00:30:16.080 --> 00:30:17.909 resurrection, which makes sense of all 00:30:17.919 --> 00:30:19.190 the other experiences. 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:20.630 >> And so, it's the same thing. It's the 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:23.190 articulation and the experience of the 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:25.190 Holy Spirit as divine. But we've already 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.350 got the solution in principle 00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:30.710 >> because we already have figured out that 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:36.870 God is one. But God's unity does not um 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:40.710 uh mean you can't speak meaningfully 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:42.710 about distinctions within that unity. 00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.630 And so once you once you granted that 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.510 that there can be relations within the 00:30:47.520 --> 00:30:50.070 unity and we have the relationship of 00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:52.950 the father and the son as described as 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.669 god's self-expression or the word in in 00:30:55.679 --> 00:30:58.070 John's gospel. Well then okay there's 00:30:58.080 --> 00:31:00.310 one more piece here. How does it fit? 00:31:00.320 --> 00:31:03.990 and and it is something like uh okay the 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.110 god the father uh self-expression is so 00:31:07.120 --> 00:31:09.510 perfect that it's a person which is the 00:31:09.520 --> 00:31:11.110 second person the trinity or the son or 00:31:11.120 --> 00:31:12.310 the word 00:31:12.320 --> 00:31:16.149 >> uh and then the relation between those 00:31:16.159 --> 00:31:19.830 two is so perfect that the relation is a 00:31:19.840 --> 00:31:20.149 person 00:31:20.159 --> 00:31:21.269 >> is a person 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:22.310 >> right um 00:31:22.320 --> 00:31:24.789 >> and again uh we mentioned this in our 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.750 last podcast right we we along with 00:31:27.760 --> 00:31:30.070 Augustine only use person Right. 00:31:30.080 --> 00:31:32.070 >> Because it doesn't actually 00:31:32.080 --> 00:31:34.470 >> Yeah. It's the best we can get. 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:36.870 >> And we recognized that it it's not 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.990 actually describing person in the way we 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:41.029 understand. 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:43.509 >> When we studied trinity in in deacon 00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:45.430 formation, I remember there was a very 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:47.029 helpful book that that walked through 00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:48.470 the history of the use of the word 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:49.590 person. And I'm not going to remember 00:31:49.600 --> 00:31:51.909 all the details, but basically person, 00:31:51.919 --> 00:31:55.350 it starts as is a Greek dramatic uh 00:31:55.360 --> 00:31:57.669 context. Persona means to sound through. 00:31:57.679 --> 00:31:59.350 It was the mask you put on. Yes. 00:31:59.360 --> 00:32:01.509 >> When you were doing Greek dramas and you 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.750 the voice came through the mass pair 00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:07.110 through sona anyways. So, 00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:09.029 >> okay. Well, this you can see why that 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:10.230 works and also why it doesn't 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:11.190 >> and also why it doesn't. 00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:11.990 >> Right. 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:12.789 >> Exactly. 00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:15.190 >> And and and you have to recast all the 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.549 terms, but uh this book said the the 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:20.630 best modern term and again it's not 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:21.830 perfect. It will have its own 00:32:21.840 --> 00:32:23.830 limitations, but it's a counterbalance 00:32:23.840 --> 00:32:25.430 to misunderstandings that stem from 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:26.549 person. M 00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:28.149 >> the best modern word might be 00:32:28.159 --> 00:32:29.190 relationship. 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:29.669 >> Mhm. 00:32:29.679 --> 00:32:31.190 >> Right. That in God there are three 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:31.830 relations 00:32:31.840 --> 00:32:32.710 >> relations, 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:36.470 >> right? Uh and so um so you have the Holy 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.190 Spirit is the relationship between the 00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:41.110 father and the son. And the thing about 00:32:41.120 --> 00:32:44.549 relations that's really handy is you can 00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:47.269 see how um the father is not the son and 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.549 the son is not the spirit and the spirit 00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:50.149 is not etc. Right? 00:32:50.159 --> 00:32:52.230 >> The the doctrine of the trinity wants to 00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:53.509 say that these pieces aren't 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:55.590

interchangeable. There's not just any 00:32:55.600 --> 00:32:56.870 three, 00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.430 >> but rather there are three and they're 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.909 and and they're particular in their 00:33:01.919 --> 00:33:03.669 relationships with one another. Yeah. 00:33:03.679 --> 00:33:05.029 And that's one of the reasons why 00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:06.630 relation is such a helpful 00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:07.990 counterbalance to person. I think 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:10.230 there's an imaginative exercise that 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:12.389 Augustine enters into when he's talking 00:33:12.399 --> 00:33:16.310 about um the internal dialogues that we 00:33:16.320 --> 00:33:18.630 have where you can have a conversation 00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:19.830 with yourself 00:33:19.840 --> 00:33:20.310 >> right 00:33:20.320 --> 00:33:23.830 >> mentally and know that you are a person 00:33:23.840 --> 00:33:26.549 who is talking to another person and 00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:28.310 that the relationship you're having with 00:33:28.320 --> 00:33:30.789 that person is also 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:33.750 >> yeah in in Augustine the trinity what's 00:33:33.760 --> 00:33:35.750 the name oh I'm gonna misplace it but 00:33:35.760 --> 00:33:37.909 his famous analogy 00:33:37.919 --> 00:33:39.990 from human knowing. There's a word for 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:41.509 it that I'm not going to find, 00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:43.350 >> is one of our best images of the 00:33:43.360 --> 00:33:44.149 Trinity, 00:33:44.159 --> 00:33:45.750 >> but he acknowledges, of course, that is 00:33:45.760 --> 00:33:49.990 limited as well, right? Um, but uh to to 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.990 put a bow on it with the Holy Spirit. So 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.389 the church has these articulations in 00:33:54.399 --> 00:33:56.070 scripture, has the experience of the 00:33:56.080 --> 00:33:58.630 scripture of the spirit as divine and 00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.269 already has the solution in principle 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.149 because they've already moved from uh 00:34:04.159 --> 00:34:08.550 unity demanding uh um no distinctions. 00:34:08.560 --> 00:34:10.869 Once unity can have distinctions within 00:34:10.879 --> 00:34:14.310 it, then the spirit can and this happens 00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:17.270 quite precisely in the walkthrough of 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:20.869 the creeds. Uh you have Nika which where 00:34:20.879 --> 00:34:23.270 the main question is christoologgical 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:25.430 and the Holy Spirit is a bit of an 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:26.550 addendum. 00:34:26.560 --> 00:34:28.470 >> Yeah. OH, AND WE OH, RIGHT. WE believe 00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.270 in God the Father. We believe in Jesus. 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.349 >> And we're going into detail 00:34:33.359 --> 00:34:34.470 >> and also the Holy Spirit. 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:36.710 >> And also the Holy Spirit, which which is 00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:39.109 a bit of a tack on whereas when you get 00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:41.589 to later creeds that come from councils 00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:43.669 that follow because the church was like, 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:45.909 "Okay, what we said about Na, what we 00:34:45.919 --> 00:34:48.550 said about the spirit in Isaiah is true. 00:34:48.560 --> 00:34:49.990 It's not that fleshed out." 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:53.270 >> Yeah. And so it gets a lot more detail 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.270 later because there are particular 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:57.589 questions that emerge even in the 00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.910 distinction between east and west. Does 00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:01.510 the does the spirit proceed from the 00:35:01.520 --> 00:35:03.270 father or proceed from the father and 00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:05.109 the son and how do we talk about this? 00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:07.349 Um I am not an expert on this but it 00:35:07.359 --> 00:35:08.790 would be I have a friend who is it would 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:10.390 be good to actually 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:11.750 >> this is called the filioquay 00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:13.030 controversy. 00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:14.150 >> It would be good to actually have 00:35:14.160 --> 00:35:15.270 someone who knows what they're talking 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:15.750 about. 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:19.109 >> Yeah. Uh my understanding is that the 00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:21.270 majority of theologians 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.470 think that this is resolvable. 00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:24.950 >> Yeah. 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.829 >> And that um people who think it's not 00:35:27.839 --> 00:35:33.030 resolvable tend to be um on the eastern 00:35:33.040 --> 00:35:34.470 camp most of the west thinks it's 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:36.150 resolvable which is which is why John 00:35:36.160 --> 00:35:38.950 Paul II said to the eastern Catholics 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:40.710 that it is acceptable for them to say 00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:43.510 the creed without the felioke from the 00:35:43.520 --> 00:35:46.069 father and the son. So, so within 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:47.670 Catholicism, we can accept both 00:35:47.680 --> 00:35:49.349 articulations that 00:35:49.359 --> 00:35:50.390 >> um 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:52.069 >> for those in the East who think that's 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.589 not legit. Uh there is often a kind of 00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:59.430 um anti-atholic like there's this like 00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.109 well we're not going to be like you have 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:02.310 to win this one. 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:04.230 >> You can't you can't actually come do 00:36:04.240 --> 00:36:05.430 common understand. Although the 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:09.430 gathering that Pope Leo had with um 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.390 Eastern um patriarchs 00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:14.790 seemed to there was some inklings that 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:15.910 there was an openness. 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:18.870 >> Right. Well, I think the patriarchs uh 00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:21.190 the

the main body of Orthodox 00:36:21.200 --> 00:36:23.430 theologians and I've heard I've heard I 00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:24.950 think it was John Bear who's one of the 00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:26.870 great Orthodox theologians of the last 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:30.470 you know century. Um this is a thing I 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:31.829 wish I remembered clearly. I mean, he 00:36:31.839 --> 00:36:33.190 gave an articulation and explanation 00:36:33.200 --> 00:36:35.510 that would just made such a ton of sense 00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:37.190 and it was quite beautiful. I think it's 00:36:37.200 --> 00:36:40.310 a minority voice that is more 00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:42.790 anti-atholic than it is trying to be 00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:45.589 traditionally orthodox that insists that 00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:47.190 you can't resolve it and the Catholics 00:36:47.200 --> 00:36:49.750 just need to like drop the filio way and 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:52.150 that's the only resolution here. Um, 00:36:52.160 --> 00:36:54.310 >> but I don't know enough to say what John 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:55.030 Bear said that 00:36:55.040 --> 00:36:57.109 >> but there are inklings of openness. 00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:59.750 >> Yeah. Most most people on both sides but 00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:01.109 especially on the Catholic side. Yeah, 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.349 >> but the mainstream of the orthodox side 00:37:03.359 --> 00:37:06.230 think this is resolvable in principle 00:37:06.240 --> 00:37:08.310 >> but there is history and politics and 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.109 national it right it has less to do cuz 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:12.710 it it's pretty 00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:14.630 >> it would seem to me just in our 00:37:14.640 --> 00:37:18.470 conversation here um that it makes a lot 00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:21.030 of sense with a mutual understanding 00:37:21.040 --> 00:37:25.270 that neither expression actually is as 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.829 accurate like Aquinus says it's probably 00:37:27.839 --> 00:37:29.670 more inaccurate regardless of what 00:37:29.680 --> 00:37:32.310 you're saying Right. It is accurate. If 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:34.310 I'm remembering correctly, bear says 00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:36.150 something like, "Look, when the West 00:37:36.160 --> 00:37:38.230 adds the Filioquay, 00:37:38.240 --> 00:37:41.349 here's the thing they were trying to say 00:37:41.359 --> 00:37:43.109 and here's the thing they were fending 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:44.069 off." 00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:44.470 >> Yeah. 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:47.510 >> And we actually agree with that. But 00:37:47.520 --> 00:37:49.750 when they say this in order to fend off 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:51.030 this thing that we think should be 00:37:51.040 --> 00:37:51.589 fended off, 00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:52.310 >> it also says 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:54.870 >> it implies this other thing which is not 00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:55.589 so great. 00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:55.910 >> Yeah. 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:58.470 >> And we want to put up a fence against 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.310 that. Right. It's one of those kinds of 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:00.630 things. 00:38:00.640 --> 00:38:01.510 >> Exactly. Yeah. 00:38:01.520 --> 00:38:02.870 >> But I don't know the particulars. 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.750 >> There we go. Well, and so there you have 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:09.190 God, Jesus, and the trin and the Holy 00:38:09.200 --> 00:38:09.589 Spirit. 00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:10.230 >> Holy Spirit. 00:38:10.240 --> 00:38:10.710 >> Yeah. In 00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:11.910 >> our best attempt at the trinity. 00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:14.390 >> Best attempt at the trinity. Yeah. 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:17.910 You're welcome. Uh all right. Uh so we 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:19.990 are always grateful for you joining us 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.589 on Thinking Faith. those who are 00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.829 listening, those who are watching, and 00:38:23.839 --> 00:38:26.630 as always, we continue to pray that God 00:38:26.640 --> 00:38:29.270 may bless you and those you love with a 00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.109 faith that is always seeking 00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:31.750 understanding. 00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:33.510 >> St. Thomas and St. Ignatius, 00:38:33.520 --> 00:38:34.390 >> pray for us. 00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:34.870 >> Amen. 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.880