Transkrip penuh untuk Selecting Disciples

are wanting to pour into 02:17.661 --> 02:21.075 to disciple as we continue this series on disciple-making. 02:21.652 --> 02:24.890 And so Jesus certainly did choose those who 02:25.035 --> 02:28.529 he called to follow him. We know he chose 12, 02:28.946 --> 02:31.847 and so we're going to be looking at that, and we're going to be looking 02:32.347 --> 02:35.502 at some scripture today dealing with that. And what it meant for 02:35.599 --> 02:39.173 Jesus to choose and what it means for us as well. 02:39.622 --> 02:42.988 So, Allen, I'm going to turn it over to you, just kind of do a 02:43.488 --> 02:46.643 no-look pass for you to take us into the Word 02:46.739 --> 02:49.849 and where we need to go from this. All right, 02:50.042 --> 02:53.937 good deal. So if you're following along with the— our main source 02:54.033 --> 02:57.929 is The Master Plan of Evangelism. And so the first 02:57.977 --> 03:01.295 chapter is called Selection, and we're going to look at— I'm 03:01.795 --> 03:05.110 going to read Luke 6, and this is when Jesus actually set 03:05.610 --> 03:09.055 apart the 12. And we're going to be Luke 03:09.555 --> 03:13.177 6:12 through— we'll go— 03:13.514 --> 03:16.658 well, let's do the rest of the book. Yeah, let's just do the whole book. 03:18.005 --> 03:21.037 We'll do 12 and 13. On one of those days, 03:21.309 --> 03:25.079 Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray and spent the night 03:25.143 --> 03:29.056 praying to God. When morning came, he called his 03:29.089 --> 03:32.665 disciples to him and chose 12 of them whom 03:32.762 --> 03:35.281 he also designated apostles. 03:36.485 --> 03:40.387 And so there was this intentionality, this intentional choice to set apart 03:40.403 --> 03:44.032 12 that Jesus would pour into. Now this, 03:44.642 --> 03:48.367 what we realize when you put the timeline of Jesus together is this 03:48.431 --> 03:52.365 is probably about a year and a half into his ministry and 03:52.865 --> 03:56.588 that he had already invited 03:57.246 --> 04:01.678 at least 6 to follow 04:02.178 --> 04:04.713 him in some way, shape, or form to do life together. 04:05.355 --> 04:09.258 And then there's like half the 04:09.758 --> 04:14.396 disciples, we don't really get that call story of them, but the main point of 04:14.444 --> 04:18.684 this episode is that Jesus intentionally, the Scripture 04:19.184 --> 04:23.052 says he spent all night praying, choosing 12, because we 04:23.552 --> 04:26.071 know there were crowds, we know there are other people around him, other followers, 04:26.151 --> 04:30.097 but he chose 12 to intentionally pour into. And so 04:30.113 --> 04:33.848 it's the idea that selection 04:35.104 --> 04:37.358 is not only Jesus' first step, 04:38.307 --> 04:40.980 but it may be the most important step, 04:41.592 --> 04:45.294 and our first step and our most important step in choosing people 04:45.794 --> 04:48.838 who we are going to come alongside. And so Jesus, 04:50.721 --> 04:53.177 I don't know about you guys, I've never spent all night praying. 04:54.669 --> 04:58.300 Right. Now, I have fallen asleep praying and 04:58.332 --> 05:01.963 dreamt that I prayed all night. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, I've done that. 05:02.610 --> 05:05.937 Yeah, yeah. Hey, a quick little sidebar 05:06.437 --> 05:09.443 discussion here because you said something that might confuse some of our listeners, 05:10.234 --> 05:13.362 which is not the first time that's happened coming from Allen, just to say. 05:14.893 --> 05:18.470 It is, you said that the calling of the 12, 05:18.760 --> 05:22.393 the full 12, probably happened a year and a half into his 05:22.729 --> 05:26.318 ministry. We probably never have thought about that, and it brings up a good 05:26.446 --> 05:29.714 thing that maybe we need to spend a few minutes on, and it's how to 05:30.018 --> 05:33.255 look at time when we read Scripture. 05:33.863 --> 05:37.035 A good example of this is Paul. Paul, 05:37.404 --> 05:40.736 when he has the road to Damascus experience in 05:41.233 --> 05:44.421 Acts chapter 9, by Acts 12, 05:44.853 --> 05:47.545 13, he's on his missionary journeys. 05:48.217 --> 05:51.053 When you read it just like that, it looks like maybe about 2 weeks after 05:51.566 --> 05:54.918 his conversion to his 05:55.030 --> 05:59.409 missionary journeys, but in reality, he talks about a decade 05:59.441 --> 06:03.098 and a half period between coming to 06:03.598 --> 06:07.525 know Jesus as Savior and Lord and 06:07.541 --> 06:11.198 then moving out and doing ministry. So when 06:11.230 --> 06:14.839 we read Scripture, we have to take in mind 06:15.339 --> 06:18.897 that if the Scripture is being written after the fact, after these things 06:18.929 --> 06:22.299 have occurred, and that the time can seem like it's 06:22.799 --> 06:26.458 a lot sooner than it actually is. Yeah, and you got to remember they 06:26.958 --> 06:30.263 had limited resources to write on. They were trying to make 06:30.312 --> 06:34.245 use of every page of documents 06:34.745 --> 06:37.200 that they were working with, and so they didn't have time to deal with any 06:37.232 --> 06:40.556 fluff, so they were just moving on to the next thing. 06:40.604 --> 06:44.489 And so you kind of have to read all 4 06:44.538 --> 06:46.992 Gospels to kind of piece together the ministry of Jesus. 06:47.890 --> 06:51.160 Yeah, and that time brings up a really fascinating point. 06:51.208 --> 06:54.975 There's a couple things here that are so good that could also cause a 06:55.023 --> 06:57.732 little bit of tension. So we're talking about making disciples, 06:58.486 --> 07:01.788 cultivating disciples who will then become disciples, and time 07:02.288 --> 07:06.036 is tough when we just, we really like to 07:06.536 --> 07:08.985 move things now. Yes, right. 07:09.627 --> 07:12.913 And the sense of, hey, I need some quick wins. I want to do the 07:13.413 --> 07:17.417 thing that will give me either the quick effectiveness or

the feeling of 07:17.449 --> 07:21.462 quick effectiveness, or if we're honest as pastors and ministry 07:21.478 --> 07:25.090 leaders, that quick hit of dopamine of having done 07:25.590 --> 07:29.504 a good job. However, discipleship kind of presses against that, 07:29.985 --> 07:34.110 and even in the selection of who 07:34.399 --> 07:38.236 Jesus will bring alongside of him, and we'll talk about why he chose 07:38.509 --> 07:41.622 and how he chose in a minute, but it's time in 07:42.122 --> 07:45.924 life that he has already spent with the large crowd. So he's got 07:46.036 --> 07:49.550 a lot of followers and 07:49.743 --> 07:53.609 disciples, according to the passage, and we 07:54.109 --> 07:58.952 know there are crowds with him, and even then he's spending time 07:59.112 --> 08:02.177 in prayer with the Father and doing it. 08:02.257 --> 08:05.113 It's not a fast process. 08:05.706 --> 08:09.156 It reminds me of this. So y'all like to bake cookies at the 08:09.220 --> 08:12.650 house, or at least eat fresh-baked cookies? Yes. I like them. All of it. 08:12.730 --> 08:14.930 Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you used to have to make 'em by scratch, 08:14.990 --> 08:18.270 right? And then, and then you could get the tubes of cookie dough and 08:18.770 --> 08:20.770 then you could cut 'em. But now you don't even have to get the tubes 08:21.270 --> 08:24.130 of cookie dough. You don't have to cut it. They come in pre-cut layers and 08:24.630 --> 08:28.530 those are good. But I'll tell you, there's nothing like a homemade fresh 08:29.030 --> 08:32.710 cookie. Yes. And it takes time. I love how we incorporated cookies 08:33.210 --> 08:36.710 and discipleship and I just am, and I'm, I'm here for it. 08:37.210 --> 08:39.290 I'm here for it. I am too. I am too. Let's go, let's go for 08:39.790 --> 08:43.051 the homemade cookies. Yeah. So Jesus spent a year and 08:43.551 --> 08:47.459 a half. I mean, so yeah, he spent all night praying to choose these 12, 08:47.523 --> 08:50.488 but you could also say he also spent a year and a half and a 08:50.988 --> 08:52.811 night, a year and a half and a night, a year and a half and 08:53.311 --> 08:56.225 a night, right? Selecting these 12. 08:57.138 --> 09:01.465 And I don't think we really think about it that way. I think we're— 09:02.010 --> 09:05.216 I have been stuck for most of my ministry, not here recently, 09:05.632 --> 09:08.597 but like, hey, let's look for the next thing. Like, let me— what's the next 09:09.097 --> 09:12.763 6-week study I can do? What's the next— thing I can do, 09:13.388 --> 09:17.057 but really intentionally praying and thinking and asking 09:17.089 --> 09:20.325 the Lord to send people to pour 09:20.373 --> 09:23.033 into, I don't know, it's a new thing. Yes, 09:24.042 --> 09:27.391 it's really, in our kind of modern stance, 09:27.439 --> 09:31.156 it's really inefficient to do that, right? Like the crowds, 09:31.252 --> 09:35.241 getting the message to the crowds, the masses is the most efficient way of getting 09:35.273 --> 09:39.086 the gospel out, at least we think. And there is certainly 09:39.118 --> 09:42.422 something to be said about even Scripture talks about the movement from 09:42.486 --> 09:46.122 the 500 to the 70 or 72 to the 12 to the 3. 09:46.894 --> 09:49.292 So we see this in the Scriptures, 09:50.371 --> 09:54.235 but Scripture will point out 09:54.735 --> 09:58.422 that the effectiveness of the Gospel going out and 09:58.922 --> 10:02.424 being propagated, sent out and 10:02.924 --> 10:06.507 spreading, yes, it works in the crowds, but it 10:06.603 --> 10:10.016 also works very efficiently, I mean effectively, 10:11.964 --> 10:15.651 in the training up of the few so that they can go train 10:15.668 --> 10:18.184 up a few so that they can go train up a few, and then you 10:18.684 --> 10:21.821 move into this exponential growth through 10:22.321 --> 10:26.542 that. So you almost have to get out of this modern idea of efficiency when 10:26.574 --> 10:29.849 you're looking at this, I think. Yeah, I think you 10:30.349 --> 10:34.092 do too. As we're looking at it, part of 10:34.108 --> 10:37.192 the conversation, this conversation about discipleship 10:37.692 --> 10:41.432 is happening a lot. Let me read. I sent you guys an article last 10:41.932 --> 10:44.628 night. This is by Alan Hirsch. If y'all don't know Alan Hirsch out there, 10:44.644 --> 10:47.631 you should really take a look at him. He's a missiologist, great church leader. 10:47.696 --> 10:51.085 He's got a Substack now. I'm just going to note one or 10:51.149 --> 10:54.425 two little parts here. I'll link to this article, 10:54.473 --> 10:58.376 too. Yeah, in the show notes. We haven't done 10:58.876 --> 11:01.058 that in a while. I know, I missed it. I missed it. I'm just going 11:01.558 --> 11:05.407 to read this quote. Hirsch says, there is a strange and wonderful 11:05.907 --> 11:09.113 math at the heart of the gospel. One man lived, died, 11:09.129 --> 11:12.884 and rose and ascended, and somehow his plan for reaching 6 11:13.384 --> 11:17.520 continents and every generation since rests on the multiplication 11:17.616 --> 11:20.969 of himself into millions of ordinary lives. 11:21.386 --> 11:25.205 That's the scandal and genius of discipleship. Jesus never 11:25.253 --> 11:28.911 intended to remain a solitary figure fixed in first-century Israel. 11:29.264 --> 11:32.765 His intention was always expansion, to fill the homes, 11:33.278 --> 11:37.614 the streets, factory floors, school hallways, and boardrooms with 11:38.114 --> 11:41.836 living, breathing versions of himself carried in the bodies of 11:41.869 --> 11:43.603 people who bear his name. 11:44.117 --> 11:49.335 And that's just the beginning. And so this idea, 11:49.720 --> 11:53.172 I can mass communicate and get people, 11:53.734 --> 11:57.115 but What if I'm 11:57.615 --> 12:01.217 not transferring information, but I'm helping Jesus be born in people 12:01.281 --> 12:04.821 and

then they're all going out? That's how it happened. That's what 12:05.046 --> 12:07.785 Coleman is talking about in The Master Plan of Evangelism. 12:08.875 --> 12:11.999 And so one of the things that Hirsch talks about to help with 12:12.499 --> 12:15.779 this conversation we're talking about is, hey, look, remember discipleship is not 12:15.844 --> 12:19.512 information transfer, but it's the formation 12:19.560 --> 12:23.053 of Christ in a person. And then discipleship becomes the 12:23.553 --> 12:27.307 main engine of the church not a department of the church. 12:28.111 --> 12:31.344 And so that just kind of helps illuminate what we're talking about and why we're 12:31.844 --> 12:35.073 talking about selection. Yeah, that's such a good line, by the way. 12:35.911 --> 12:38.814 It becomes the main engine versus just a department. 12:39.235 --> 12:41.908 If you'll give me a second to edit it, I can make it look like 12:42.408 --> 12:45.609 I wrote it. So I've been 12:45.674 --> 12:49.385 thinking about this, like, so the idea of selection, at least 12:49.418 --> 12:54.369 with Jesus, was Fewer, 12:54.869 --> 12:57.667 not more. Yes, he ministered to the masses, 12:58.508 --> 13:02.145 but he really spent time with a few people, 13:02.630 --> 13:06.261 which is, I think, contrary to how most of our churches operate. We attend to 13:06.761 --> 13:10.252 the masses on Sunday morning, right? And that's where a lot of our 13:10.752 --> 13:11.598 time and our energy goes into. 13:14.948 --> 13:18.280 And Coleman speaks to this. Jesus didn't ignore the masses. 13:18.345 --> 13:20.470 We got the feeding of the 5,000. We got all these healings and miracles. 13:20.518 --> 13:23.811 I mean, he didn't ignore the masses, but But he spent most of 13:24.311 --> 13:28.000 his time on a few. And when I got to thinking about, this is the 13:28.500 --> 13:32.028 way God has operated from the beginning. I mean, you think about Adam and Eve, 13:32.141 --> 13:34.313 you got 2 people, the whole world's created. 13:35.850 --> 13:39.471 One of the stories I love is Gideon in 13:39.584 --> 13:42.462 Judges, and Gideon's got this big army that he's amassing, 13:42.950 --> 13:45.860 and God dwindles that army. Was it down to 300? 13:46.458 --> 13:50.137 He cut thousands out of the army. Got 300 13:50.637 --> 13:53.423 and they marched around Jericho and they didn't do a thing. Or not Jericho, 13:53.439 --> 13:56.741 but the other place. It was the other 13:57.241 --> 13:59.787 place. Yeah. It was the other place. My bad. Yeah. It was the other place. 13:59.915 --> 14:03.265 Yeah. I mean, yeah, we know what you're talking 14:03.361 --> 14:06.887 about. And then there's the passage in Matthew. So Matthew 14:06.903 --> 14:10.526 18, you ever use this verse where 2 or 3 are gathered 14:10.750 --> 14:14.501 in his name? I am there. I am there with you. 14:14.838 --> 14:18.255 Makes me feel so good. It's an excuse for a rainy Sunday. Exactly. That's what 14:18.512 --> 14:22.110

we— it's like a consolation prize. Oh gosh. Oh well, nobody showed up, 14:22.126 --> 14:25.804 but God's with us. Tell me the truth, Allen. What if it actually 14:25.820 --> 14:29.209 is like, that's the way God wants to operate? Um, 14:29.932 --> 14:31.811 like, um, 14:33.225 --> 14:36.068 fewer is where the power's at. Fewer is where, 14:36.903 --> 14:39.971 um, the money's at. Like that. What if that's the way 14:40.471 --> 14:42.381 God intended? It's not a consolation. It's like, okay. 14:44.643 --> 14:47.091 Yeah, so I think when we think about it, 14:47.541 --> 14:50.504 selection and pouring into just a few people, 14:52.485 --> 14:55.711 this is the way God has operated. This is the way God 14:55.808 --> 14:59.363 wants to operate. So I think one of the things 14:59.880 --> 15:03.221 that comes up then is what was Jesus looking for when he 15:03.270 --> 15:06.498 was selecting his disciples and what should we 15:06.998 --> 15:10.166 be looking for? I've said before, 15:10.297 --> 15:12.487 just quoting our friend Tony Miltenberger, 15:14.410 --> 15:18.020 of the Follow— is it Follow to Lead podcast? Is that what it's, 15:18.520 --> 15:20.840 uh, is that what it's called? The Follow to Lead. You should give that podcast 15:21.340 --> 15:23.600 a listen to. We're giving a shout out to our friend Tony. 15:24.300 --> 15:27.100 Um, and a like, subscribe. Yeah, and a like, subscribe. 15:27.380 --> 15:30.440 Although, when was the last time he gave a shout out to the Podocasis podcast? 15:30.540 --> 15:34.200 Yeah, that's certainly his fault. That is absolutely his fault. Yeah, well, 15:34.700 --> 15:37.920 fair. It wasn't that we weren't here for 2 years. Yeah, well, that's true. 15:38.420 --> 15:40.927 You know what, I retract that statement. We love you, Tony. We love you, 15:41.089 --> 15:44.766 Tony. Anyway, he always talked about looking for FAT 15:44.960 --> 15:49.073 Christians to invite in: faithful, available, and teachable. 15:49.283 --> 15:52.480 Okay. Yeah, we just offended a whole bunch of people, 15:52.496 --> 15:55.789 but it's also my favorite little acronym too. 15:55.886 --> 15:58.647 Well, the Bible says the fat belongs to the Lord, so. It does. Amen. 15:58.696 --> 16:00.619 Exactly. Yes, in Leviticus. 16:02.348 --> 16:06.629 But you can also use the FAITH and add to that intentional 16:06.693 --> 16:10.211 and humble. And so the idea here is we're looking for 16:10.711 --> 16:15.262 followers followers of Jesus, people who are 16:15.375 --> 16:19.564 Christians, but who are ready to go 16:19.708 --> 16:23.496 deeper, to become stronger, and to themselves 16:23.996 --> 16:27.877 become multipliers and go through this intentional 16:28.070 --> 16:32.130 process. There were a lot of people who loved 16:32.146 --> 16:35.998 Jesus in Jesus' day, but there were only a few who 16:36.014 --> 16:38.069 would actually follow him all the way to the end. 16:39.509 --> 16:43.183 And so, well, let me ask it, put it this way. Is it 16:43.313 --> 16:45.902 right for us today to choose people? 16:47.327 --> 16:50.205 How do we keep that from becoming like this, 16:51.045 --> 16:54.005 you got this primary class of Christians over here, 16:54.619 --> 16:58.167 and then you got this secondary class of Christians over there when the pastor or 16:58.667 --> 17:02.666 the disciple leader is choosing who they want 17:03.614 --> 17:07.471 to go through these processes? I think that's gonna be one of the first tensions 17:07.504 --> 17:11.055 that comes up maybe in people's minds, and you might have some people 17:11.555 --> 17:15.037 feel that way. But here's a reminder, no choice is 17:15.537 --> 17:19.287 still a choice. And so you only— 17:19.706 --> 17:23.982 here's a good Lord of the Rings quote, there's only so much butter 17:24.482 --> 17:28.629 to spread over the bread, right? And so if you are not 17:28.758 --> 17:32.277 choosing to invest anywhere, you're only putting a little 17:32.309 --> 17:35.714 bit in everywhere. And the other fact is, 17:36.613 --> 17:40.837 we're not talking about classes of Christians in terms of hierarchy 17:40.869 --> 17:44.129 of Christians. We're actually talking about deeper and multiplying. 17:44.788 --> 17:48.771 And so it does take wisdom. So like for me, for us, 17:48.979 --> 17:53.123 we are pastors of churches and we are seeking to make disciples, 17:53.236 --> 17:57.701 but we also, as soon as the Lord allows people to start becoming 17:57.733 --> 18:01.427 disciple-makers under us and with us, that's a little easier. 18:01.973 --> 18:05.414 But It's ultimately, you've got to think 10 years down the 18:05.914 --> 18:09.497 road. 10 years down the road, did I preach 10 18:09.545 --> 18:12.614 years' worth of good sermons and make a couple people happy and maybe a couple 18:13.114 --> 18:16.732 people accidentally really got deep with Jesus? Or am I willing to put 18:17.232 --> 18:20.830 in the work for the long haul to leave behind or to have a decade 18:21.330 --> 18:25.024 behind of people who are truly committed to making disciples? 18:25.330 --> 18:28.696 Because if everybody's only coming to the church to make disciples or to 18:28.729 --> 18:32.114 be Christian, one, they're only getting half of the meal, 18:33.761 --> 18:37.040 and then two, where are the people on this 18:37.153 --> 18:40.418 street and in that school and in that business and in that home and in 18:40.483 --> 18:43.268 that part of the place that's going to go out into another neck of the 18:43.300 --> 18:46.279 woods? Where are they? How are those people going to become disciples? 18:47.000 --> 18:50.669 So one of the things— I'll stop here. I'm talking a lot. It's early 18:51.169 --> 18:54.886 morning for me, but you might get that objection from church 18:55.143 --> 18:58.106 members. And I understand the objection, 18:58.877 --> 19:02.990 but I also think if they can come alongside and hear the 19:03.490 --> 19:07.086 point, then they're teachable. But you

can't cater 19:07.648 --> 19:12.226 your mission to the 19:12.726 --> 19:15.727 harshest criticism. That's good. Yeah, 19:15.743 --> 19:18.506 that's good. And so you have, you'll have to be able to say, look, 19:18.715 --> 19:21.397 I understand what you're saying. This is what we're going to do. And I'm sorry, 19:22.038 --> 19:23.848 I hate this. I'm sorry you feel that way. 19:26.330 --> 19:28.659 Because otherwise you're gonna do nothing. Right. 19:29.597 --> 19:33.576 I think that's great. That's great. Yeah, no, I think that's 19:33.867 --> 19:34.595 absolutely great. 19:39.251 --> 19:43.646 And I think that struggle we're talking about is really for pastors. I think laity, 19:43.823 --> 19:45.658 if they get on fire, I mean, dadgummit, 19:47.058 --> 19:50.376 whoever the Lord sends into your life, go pour into them, do it. Um, 19:50.456 --> 19:53.757 I like, I like that. I think the real struggle we're talking about is for 19:54.257 --> 19:57.010 pastors who are trying to shepherd a whole congregation, 19:57.747 --> 20:00.839 and we feel like we're sliding some if we choose, um, 20:01.128 --> 20:04.573 to choose others. Um, but I mean, if we're called to be 20:05.073 --> 20:07.954 like Jesus, Jesus, that's exactly what Jesus did. 20:08.643 --> 20:11.768 He, he ministered to the masses, but he poured himself into a few, 20:12.328 --> 20:15.854 and, um, we're just following his model. I like that. Let's, 20:15.870 --> 20:18.307 let's turn the attention then Let's assume, 20:19.061 --> 20:22.512 because we have a lot of friends who listen to the podcast and who will 20:22.672 --> 20:26.347 begin listening again, who serve the Lord in 20:26.379 --> 20:29.557 their own life that are lay members of churches. Let's turn our attention 20:29.589 --> 20:32.847 there. So let's assume that you're talking to somebody 20:33.425 --> 20:37.565 who wants to begin making disciples and they're in this part. Talk to them about 20:37.678 --> 20:41.305 that. Yeah, no, so I would absolutely— I think the first step 20:41.805 --> 20:43.423 is to pray. I mean, we're talking about selection. 20:44.781 --> 20:48.537 The first step is to begin praying and asking the Lord to 20:49.037 --> 20:51.907 send people into your life to pour into one-on-one, 20:53.500 --> 20:56.274 triad, 4 to 6 people, something like that. 20:56.652 --> 21:00.087 Keep it small. And to use faithful, 21:00.103 --> 21:03.976 available, intentional, teachable, humble. Are they 21:04.476 --> 21:07.348 faithful? Are they following Jesus? Are they available? Do they have the time? I think 21:07.848 --> 21:11.123 availability is the number one issue in our world today. We got a lot 21:11.623 --> 21:15.036 of people who are faithful and intentional and teachable and humble, but they will tell 21:15.536 --> 21:17.762 you they don't have the time. Now, everybody's got the same amount of time, 21:17.778 --> 21:21.322 but they're just not making the time. So are they available? 21:22.252 --> 21:25.315 Are

they intentional? Will they take the 21:25.815 --> 21:29.516 time? Will they pour into it? Are they teachable? Are they going to get defensive 21:29.805 --> 21:33.734 when you try to correct them? And if so, 21:34.055 --> 21:36.749 then they're not somebody you need to pour into right now. And then are they 21:36.765 --> 21:40.351 humble? Um, so pray. I believe that that is a prayer. 21:40.448 --> 21:43.510 I, I know without a doubt that is a prayer the Lord will answer. 21:43.977 --> 21:46.971 And I'll just give you a real quick story. Um, I, I was, I was 21:47.100 --> 21:50.910 forming a group about a year or so ago, praying over a couple 21:51.410 --> 21:55.123 guys, and I had some time one, one day after lunch, and I texted 21:55.623 --> 21:57.802 this, this friend of mine. I was like, hey man, you got some, you got 21:58.302 --> 22:00.594 some time? He works. And so I was— he said, yeah, come on over. 22:01.660 --> 22:04.172 So I went to his place of business. I walked in. I said, I know 22:04.188 --> 22:08.828 this is weird. I said, but I have been praying Uh, 22:09.455 --> 22:12.946 for you that, uh, in your name. I've been praying for people 22:12.994 --> 22:16.034 to pour into, and your name came to my mind and my heart. 22:16.758 --> 22:19.672 And, um, I would like to, to walk with you, 22:19.835 --> 22:23.435 um, you know, to help you follow Jesus and help both of 22:23.935 --> 22:27.474 us follow Jesus. And he looked at me and he said, 22:27.815 --> 22:31.042 I have been asking the Lord for direction, 22:32.355 --> 22:35.736 and here you walk in. So it's not just, 22:35.816 --> 22:39.730 as we pray over people to pour into, the Lord's 22:40.230 --> 22:43.001 already working, right? We have to remember the Lord's already— we think he's only working 22:43.034 --> 22:45.680 in our lives, but he's working in everybody else's lives. Wait, what? 22:46.305 --> 22:49.481 Right? I know. So pray. 22:49.593 --> 22:52.785 I mean, that's the whole idea of selection. That's the first step. And that is 22:52.881 --> 22:55.864 the most important step. And if you skip this step, 22:56.008 --> 22:59.280 then you may have people in your group, but they 22:59.296 --> 23:02.423 may not end up multiplying. So you want to ask the Lord to put the 23:02.923 --> 23:06.501 right people together. Yeah. And I would also say, and there's a little bit, 23:06.614 --> 23:10.500 I say controversy on this, but I don't think it really has to be. 23:11.897 --> 23:16.057 It is, which is the right way? Put together a group or do one-on-one, 23:16.153 --> 23:19.092 or how do you do this? And I say, yes, 23:19.526 --> 23:23.075 it's all valid. It all depends upon the 23:23.139 --> 23:26.640 context of your church, of your setting, of your 23:26.849 --> 23:28.423 business, whatever it is you're doing. 23:30.699 --> 23:33.390 Alan, I know, does a lot of kind of small group stuff. 23:34.913 --> 23:38.220 I do primarily one-on-one mentoring. 23:38.560 --> 23:41.338 And so Alan can probably get, 23:42.677 --> 23:46.840 if he does 3 groups of, let's say, 3, that's 9 to 12 people that 23:46.873 --> 23:50.666 he can really hit at any one time. Whereas me, I'm hitting around the 6 23:51.166 --> 23:54.541 to 8 mark just for my time. But for my context, 23:54.558 --> 23:58.565 the one-on-one kind of apprenticeship model, of doing this 23:59.655 --> 24:03.406 has been what fits most naturally for my 24:03.906 --> 24:06.115 people. I also do this. 24:07.349 --> 24:10.971 I give permission when I go to something. So I'm praying, I write down names. 24:11.019 --> 24:13.600 I've got a name of about— names. I've got a list of about 20 or 24:14.100 --> 24:18.056 so guys at our church that I want to invite over the next several years 24:18.168 --> 24:21.903 into this relationship, either with me or with 24:22.592 --> 24:24.820 somebody else who's gone through this with me. 24:27.136 --> 24:30.171 So, but whenever I meet with them, like yesterday I had lunch with a guy 24:30.768 --> 24:33.758 who I was inviting into an apprenticeship relationship. 24:34.409 --> 24:37.750 And so I always give them permission to 24:38.250 --> 24:41.296 say no. I'm saying, hey, I want to invite you to 24:41.796 --> 24:44.735 this. Here's kind of the overview of it. Here's the plan. I've been praying. 24:44.848 --> 24:49.338 You've been on my heart. I think this will be good for you with 24:49.435 --> 24:53.140 the goal of you going and doing the same thing in 24:53.238 --> 24:58.067 a little, after some training and going through this. Through this 24:58.180 --> 25:01.538 plan, but here's the deal. You're not going to hurt my feelings 25:01.586 --> 25:04.947 if you say I can't do it right now. In fact, 25:05.270 --> 25:08.644 I would much rather you be honest with yourself and say no now than 25:08.821 --> 25:12.888 be in this for 10 weeks and just tell me I can't 25:13.098 --> 25:16.685 do this for whatever reason. Giving permission to 25:16.717 --> 25:20.110 say no goes a long way, especially if you're 25:20.610 --> 25:24.340 a leader, either a pastoral leader or a community leader. 25:24.668 --> 25:28.755 Giving somebody permission to say no goes a long way, and you'll find that people 25:28.851 --> 25:32.587 will have a— the response 25:32.812 --> 25:36.339 will be good on that. So consider 25:36.839 --> 25:40.632 doing that when you're picking and when you're praying through who you're going to invite 25:41.132 --> 25:43.573 into this relationship. I was thinking about availability. I mean, 25:44.571 --> 25:48.318 you as a disciple maker have to make the time. You have to decide, 25:50.238 --> 25:52.939 I'm going to carve out this time. I'm going to take this off my calendar. 25:53.248 --> 25:56.393 This is the time that that I'm going to block off to meet 25:56.521 --> 25:59.897 with so-and-so or this group, that group. 26:01.247 --> 26:05.275 I do think Brett made a great point that there are different models 26:05.470 --> 26:08.562 and it's okay.

We have 2 groups at 26:09.062 --> 26:12.568 the church that are too big. They're working, I guess, but they're bigger 26:12.584 --> 26:16.071 than what we originally want. We're forming some smaller groups. 26:16.457 --> 26:19.863 I got one who's doing one-on-one right now. It may turn into 26:19.895 --> 26:24.530 a group, it may not, but There's just— 26:25.030 --> 26:27.610 here's what I'm so excited about. We're actually doing it. Yeah, there you go. 26:28.110 --> 26:31.610 Exactly right. I was talking, having a conversation with a layperson last night. I'm like, 26:32.110 --> 26:35.850 yeah, we're kind of making this up as we go because this is like version 26:36.350 --> 26:39.320 1.0. But we're going in the right direction. 26:41.390 --> 26:46.130 We may be, we're learning, but we 26:46.630 --> 26:50.010 are learning while doing. And I'd rather be doing that and having these conversations 26:50.510 --> 26:53.455 about, hey, what's working here? What's not working here? Yeah. Um, 26:54.000 --> 26:57.720 so, because at least, at least something is happening. 26:58.474 --> 27:01.697 So for people out there, and, and I'm, uh, thinking about 27:02.197 --> 27:03.942 a lot of people, I've got some folks in my church right now who are 27:04.442 --> 27:07.919 so passionate about this, and, and simply by talking about it, we're giving them permission 27:08.419 --> 27:10.564 to have courage, which is great. Yes. Um, but, 27:11.526 --> 27:14.541 uh, I have been, uh, let me just confess, I have always been kind of 27:15.041 --> 27:18.614 stuck on how, how, how, and, and trying to make it make 27:19.114 --> 27:22.528 sense. And honestly, not wanting to make mistakes. And I think a lot 27:23.028 --> 27:26.844 of people are like that as well, especially if 27:27.344 --> 27:30.791 you feel like in any way it's 27:31.291 --> 27:35.155 presumptuous for me to ask somebody to pour into their life 27:35.219 --> 27:39.375 or however you're going to frame the ask. So let 27:39.875 --> 27:42.969 me float this by you and see what you think or how you would 27:42.985 --> 27:46.114 nuance this advice. If you feel that call and 27:46.614 --> 27:49.612 you have been working in discipleship and it's time to start, investing, 27:50.592 --> 27:55.008 um, then let's start with praying to 27:55.508 --> 27:58.188 see who, like Alan has said, who the Lord has put in your life. 27:59.344 --> 28:03.102 And then let that begin to form your methodology 28:03.134 --> 28:06.474 and your approach. Don't, don't say I have to get the approach. 28:07.148 --> 28:10.569 I need a group of 5. How am I gonna do it? What, what, 28:10.585 --> 28:14.134 what tools am I gonna use? Well, pray first. Who is the Lord 28:14.634 --> 28:17.779 putting in my life? It might be 1, 2, 3, or 4 people. And then 28:17.811 --> 28:21.216 you lean in, and guess what? Over a couple of 28:21.264 --> 28:24.669 weeks, if you've agreed to meet together and you want to pivot to a 28:25.169 --> 28:28.892 slightly different tool, or if you want to meet at different times, you are 28:29.392 --> 28:33.148 allowed because it's really about the transfer and 28:33.648 --> 28:37.372 the transformation of somebody in their hearts. So I'm just saying that 28:37.484 --> 28:40.568 to give permission to not get stuck in the ways that I've gotten stuck. 28:40.632 --> 28:44.330 How would you all nuance or Or correct that 28:44.830 --> 28:48.190 advice? Yeah, no, I think that's great because, and we're, we're part, you know, 28:48.690 --> 28:51.130 going through this book, we're gonna get into some of the methods and the way 28:51.630 --> 28:54.330 Jesus did it. But, uh, it's, 28:54.830 --> 28:58.110 don't, don't let fear, I think fear is a big, 28:58.610 --> 29:01.910 big, huge obstacle that we all have to deal with. I, I heard, I heard 29:02.410 --> 29:06.350 somewhere that fear is the mind killer. Oh, oh, that's great line. 29:06.850 --> 29:10.610 That's from Dune. Yeah. I love this. Yeah. That's a great line. That's from 29:11.110 --> 29:13.230 Dune. It's not biblical at all, but you know, but maybe it, I don't know. 29:13.730 --> 29:17.193 Go ahead, Alex. But I think we fear like we don't know enough. We fear 29:17.338 --> 29:20.980 that, hey, we're not worthy enough. We fear rejection, 29:21.109 --> 29:23.548 you know, hey, the permission to say no type of thing. 29:24.462 --> 29:27.527 Just start praying. If you have a heart, 29:27.607 --> 29:31.458 if the Lord is leading you to live out the mission that he's called 29:31.958 --> 29:34.860 us all to follow, then just start praying. 29:35.197 --> 29:38.647 And there are people perhaps that the Lord has already put in your life that 29:39.147 --> 29:41.712 you just have to have eyes to see. There's people in our churches that need 29:42.212 --> 29:44.873 discipling. There's people in their workplace, at school, 29:46.107 --> 29:49.714 He will bring those people to your mind and into your presence and into 29:50.214 --> 29:53.946 your sphere if they're not already there, and just start praying. 29:54.924 --> 29:58.306 Yeah, I think that's so good, and I would also say what helps me 29:58.371 --> 30:02.122 is thinking about this not in programmatic terms, 30:02.154 --> 30:06.161 but in terms of like a plan. And so the difference 30:06.225 --> 30:09.415 being plans can be flexible, right? Plans can, 30:09.992 --> 30:13.182 and you've got to be very flexible when you're disciple-making. 30:13.519 --> 30:17.030 Flexible from, I believe, flexible from the type of curriculum 30:17.063 --> 30:20.237 you use, if you use curriculum, 30:20.302 --> 30:22.828 to really cater. 30:24.623 --> 30:28.363 Like for me, I try to cater each experience or each relationship 30:28.863 --> 30:30.032 to the person I'm discipling. 30:32.460 --> 30:36.385 And so that for me is helpful. A program tends 30:36.401 --> 30:39.729 to be more rigid. A program for me tends to be 30:39.778 --> 30:43.620 more built around, let's say, curriculum or built

around 30:44.540 --> 30:46.865 a timeframe or built around this or that. It's not, for me at least, 30:49.106 --> 30:52.534 as flexible. So find that language that is— 30:53.031 --> 30:56.571 that includes flexibility when you're doing this. And I think that takes the 30:57.071 --> 31:00.320 fear away, that helps alleviate some of the fear, because then 31:00.820 --> 31:03.604 you don't have to feel like you have to be perfect in it. 31:04.101 --> 31:06.440 Also, know you're not going to be perfect. You're going to make mistakes. You're going 31:06.940 --> 31:10.509 to say stupid things. You're going to— like, things are going to happen, but they 31:10.589 --> 31:14.514 are too. And the beautiful thing about this relationship is that it's that 31:14.578 --> 31:18.295 it's a relationship. It's give and take. It's learning from each other 31:19.400 --> 31:22.419 or from the group. Process. So for me, 31:23.068 --> 31:27.007 it's just having different language than what we're probably used 31:27.040 --> 31:28.840 to in a local church setting. 31:30.630 --> 31:33.981 I don't know, I just feel led to say this. Um, I think some 31:34.481 --> 31:36.751 of you may be listening and you're thinking, 31:37.670 --> 31:39.216 wait a minute, I've never been discipled. 31:41.264 --> 31:44.109 Um, nobody's ever poured into me like you're talking about, 31:44.174 --> 31:45.768 like Jesus did with the disciples. 31:47.937 --> 31:51.052 Well, I mean, that's one of the realizations that I came to 31:51.084 --> 31:54.504 is that I'd never really truly been discipled. I've been discipled in the 31:55.004 --> 31:58.374 ways of being a good church member and seeing how typical 31:58.874 --> 32:02.741 ministry, at least that I had seen be done. And so 32:03.111 --> 32:05.567 just made a decision. All right, Lord, this is what you called me to do. 32:05.856 --> 32:09.517 I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna try to figure this out. And that's what 32:10.017 --> 32:13.224 I've been doing. Also, in terms of— I'm 32:13.288 --> 32:16.765 thinking about selection, and we've been talking about 32:17.265 --> 32:20.610 selecting people to disciple. Maybe what the Lord maybe 32:21.110 --> 32:24.504 needs you to do is to ask and pray about somebody to disciple you. 32:25.626 --> 32:29.103 And don't be scared to 32:29.311 --> 32:32.468 go to somebody in your church who you think is a little more mature, 32:32.772 --> 32:36.377 been following Jesus for a little bit longer. Don't be 32:36.877 --> 32:40.322 scared to go and ask them to disciple you. And they 32:40.822 --> 32:44.393 may not know, they may not, yeah, they may 32:44.893 --> 32:48.191 be scared too about that, but maybe that's what you need to pray about, 32:49.050 --> 32:51.560 somebody in your church to come alongside you. 32:53.302 --> 32:57.061 And I've seen, I've witnessed that, that's happening 32:57.094 --> 33:00.240 more in my church. People are coming to the realization and they're like, 33:00.643 --> 33:03.996 I really want somebody to pour into me. And that's happened on occasion. 33:04.127 --> 33:08.207 And so don't, Don't be 33:08.707 --> 33:12.502 scared to admit that. And I just want to invite you 33:12.874 --> 33:15.279 to do that if that's what you feel like you need to do. I want 33:15.779 --> 33:19.207 to give 2 examples that back up what Allen is saying there. First of all, 33:21.719 --> 33:25.487 I had a guy in my church who is almost 80 come 33:25.600 --> 33:29.609 to me and asking me, and I'm 46, almost 47. 33:30.028 --> 33:33.833 He came to me asking me if I would disciple 33:34.333 --> 33:38.206 him. Now, this is a guy who, you know, knows he's 33:38.706 --> 33:42.397 been in the church his entire life. Yeah. And he's a faithful follower. 33:42.461 --> 33:45.592 Like, he's a— he's very dedicated to the mission of Christ. 33:46.074 --> 33:50.217 He told me, he said, I want the last thing I do before 33:50.265 --> 33:53.187 I go into glory is to disciple my grandkids, 33:53.300 --> 33:57.105 and I need to know how to do that. So he came to me about 33:57.137 --> 34:00.614 that. And then I've got a pastor, 34:00.679 --> 34:03.738 there's a pastor in our area who pastors a different church, 34:03.851 --> 34:07.267 different, like it's a non-denominational church. He and I were 34:08.302 --> 34:11.522 tag-teaming a funeral, 34:12.311 --> 34:14.951 and before that funeral, he came to me and he said, 34:15.370 --> 34:17.551 hey, I want to ask you, would you disciple me? 34:18.846 --> 34:22.537 Now, this is a guy who disciples people, like he already is 34:22.634 --> 34:27.231 a really just 34:27.731 --> 34:31.085 good disciple maker, but he found that he was not being discipled himself. He was 34:31.181 --> 34:34.808 pouring out, pouring out, and pouring out, but not being filled up. And so he 34:35.308 --> 34:39.654 just came to me. He's about 10 years younger, and he said, will you disciple 34:40.154 --> 34:42.927 me? So it doesn't even have to be someone in your church is what I'm 34:43.427 --> 34:46.907 saying. Pastors, disciple other pastors in 34:47.407 --> 34:50.598 your community. Disciple people. It's the kingdom, man. It's the kingdom. That's what the beautiful 34:50.678 --> 34:54.658 thing about this is, is this kingdom is not It's not denominational, 34:54.706 --> 34:58.381 it's not siloed. Yeah, our 2 main groups 34:58.881 --> 35:01.735 have like 5 or 6 different churches represented. 35:02.714 --> 35:06.229 And so this is, you know, this is that disciple-making 35:06.277 --> 35:09.262 is kingdom business. It's not church business. Yeah, no doubt. So yeah. Yes, 35:09.535 --> 35:12.825 absolutely. So man, that's awesome. I'm gonna 35:13.325 --> 35:16.035 tell you one thing here. You know, 'cause you're talking about people asking to be 35:16.535 --> 35:19.822 discipled, one of the things to encourage you is you might be, 35:19.967 --> 35:23.371 by asking someone to pour into you, you might, very well 35:23.871 --> 35:28.639 be a catalyst to starting a movement around your community just 35:29.139 --> 35:31.418 by asking the question. And then just remember, 35:32.109 --> 35:34.920 my experience of late has been surprising to me. 35:35.562 --> 35:39.273 People are hungry, and the Lord is at work 35:39.773 --> 35:44.156 in people's lives. And so to 35:44.656 --> 35:47.995 have the courage, if you're praying, I would encourage people who feel a sense of 35:48.495 --> 35:52.636 maturity and you wonder what your next step in ministry is, it's probably going to 35:52.652 --> 35:56.538 be involving, well, it's going to be involving making disciples in 35:56.586 --> 35:59.637 some way. Just be praying, who is the Lord putting around you? 35:59.733 --> 36:03.298 Just start with that prayer is my suggestion and then 36:03.346 --> 36:07.023 follow us for the remainder of this season of episodes to figure 36:07.103 --> 36:11.117 out what to do along the way. Yeah, there you go. Absolutely, absolutely. Nice little 36:11.617 --> 36:13.735 plug. Yeah, and remember, this, 36:14.586 --> 36:18.835 Christians, is a commandment. I mean, this is the Great 36:19.076 --> 36:22.056 Commandment, or a Great Commission, I should say, 36:22.585 --> 36:26.095 that flows from the Great Commandment. I really believe the Great Commission 36:26.127 --> 36:28.995 flows out of the Great Commandment. Well, I love what we heard at conference. 36:29.235 --> 36:32.777 Our purpose is to love God and love one another. That's the Great Commandment. 36:33.001 --> 36:36.334 Our assignment is to make disciples. That's true. And our purpose, 36:36.687 --> 36:40.196 our assignment flows out of our purpose. As we love God, as we love others, 36:41.030 --> 36:44.043 we're going to go and make disciples. That's right. That's right. Well, 36:44.860 --> 36:48.595 this has been great, guys. It's been good to really kind of lock into this 36:48.627 --> 36:52.475 and talk about how we choose people and what we're 36:52.975 --> 36:55.729 looking for. And y'all, if we could just sum it up, if I could sum 36:55.777 --> 36:59.111 it up for us, pray. Just pray, pray, pray. Be earnest in your 36:59.143 --> 37:02.590 prayer about this, and you'll see the Lord move in a powerful way, and I 37:03.090 --> 37:07.030 truly believe that. Well, that's it for this episode of the Patachesis Podcast. 37:07.078 --> 37:10.893 As always, you can find us @patachesis on the social medias 37:11.470 --> 37:14.773 and platforms, the social media platforms, I should say. Or is it 37:15.273 --> 37:17.968 the socials media? The socials media, yeah. 37:18.626 --> 37:22.029 But you can find us there. You can look us up, share us 37:22.141 --> 37:25.673 out and about as we get this thing back off 37:26.173 --> 37:29.686 the ground and going strong. And until next time, 37:29.782 --> 37:34.197 we look forward to speaking to you again on the Catechesis Podcast.