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Welcome to the Cabrera Lab podcast.
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Hey.
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What's up?
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Everything's up.
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Well, that's not actually true.
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Not every single thing is up.
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There are some things that are down.
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It's all relevant.
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Physically.
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Yeah.
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Alright, so I have an interesting one.
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I was talking to a group of executives the other day on a bluebelt training.
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Yep.
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And I heard this familiar saying that I think you and I should deconstruct a little bit, which is that's just the way it is.
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And I really gave me pause.
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Like, let's really deconstruct.
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What does it mean?
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So I had two thoughts, and then you can kind of riff on it like you like to.
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So which is good.
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There are two things that came to mind.
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One is that's the way it is.
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First of all, what is it?
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And second of all, it seems to me that kind of phrase or phraseology is indication of an old locked-in mental model that's not being interrogated or pushed or challenged in any way.
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Yeah, you're half right.
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No, I'm entirely.
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No, you're half right.
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And but you're right, you're super right about the it.
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Yeah.
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What is the it?
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And the it in that sentence has two meanings.
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Yeah.
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And and one of them is in the is, right?
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So the it and the is are the the most important part of that sentence.
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Yeah.
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So the it could be that's the way it is, meaning like is is reality, right?
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Yes.
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It could be reality.
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That's how reality is.
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And in that case, that's a really important is.
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Yeah.
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You know?
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But it also could be that's the way this particular slice of reality is predicated on the things that we believe to be true, which may or may not be true, meaning they may or may not be reality.
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Yes.
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Right?
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So the way we operate, it's a little, it's a little complex, which is why this is such an important saying.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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The way we operate is based on our mental models.
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And those mental models and that operation, those operations are part of reality.
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So if you say like that's the way it is, and what you mean is, you know, this is the way our organization works, this is the way society works, there's a ch there's a reality to that.
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It's true.
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Yes.
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But it's not necessarily that's the way it has to work.
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There are different mental models you could have that could make it work differently.
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Yes.
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And the question is whether or not it's bumping up uh up against some constraint of reality, which is usually, you know, in in the organizational realm, your constraints are not typically governed by physics or chemistry or things like that, right?
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So they're pretty they're pretty malleable constraints.
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But if you're, you know, if you're building things and making rockets or building buildings, then yeah, you are bumping up against the constraints of real physics.
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Yeah.
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Within those constraints, you can change your mental model and you can change whether it's your individual mental model or your collective mental model as an organization, and you can change your reality.
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You can change the way it is.
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Yes.
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And what I like about what you just said, other than the fact that you said it, is it kind of so for me when I hear that in an organizational kind of setting, there's often this second part which is, and we can't change it.
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Right?
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It it it comes across as almost a defeated posture.
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But what you just said actually is interesting, which is maybe I should flip the way I think about it, which is what they're saying to me is this is the reality of how it actually works.
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Yes.
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And I'm struggling.
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And we have to love reality.
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Yeah, and I'm struggling to to have it be different.
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I don't have a footing into how I would change it because it seems so ingrained, so whatever the word is.
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Yeah.
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Normative.
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Yeah, and it's weird because that statement could come with a word just in it, right?
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Which is an interesting word
Load full transcript
because that that gets at the disempowerment of it all, right?
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Yes.
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You know, so if you go, that's just the way it is, it's kind of like eh, there's nothing I can do about it, right?
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But if it's that's the way it is, that could be a little different, right?
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So either way, if you notice that your mental models or your collective mental models, so we'll draw that as a bunch of people.
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So an individual mental model or a collective mental model, doesn't matter which one, will lead to action of all kinds.
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Yes.
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Which in an organizational setting is operations, tactics, you know, strategies, all kinds of things.
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And this is going to lead to action as well.
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So you could be saying that's just the way it is, meaning that's just the way we do things.
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And that's changeable because you can change your mental model.
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You can change your collective mental model.
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So this is changeable.
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Now, if you're saying more in a love reality sense, all of this is love reality.
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That's why love reality is so important.
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It's important to be like, hey, you know, there are some somewhat intractable, you know, structures at play here in our organization.
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They're not constraints of nature, but they are real constraints.
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We've been doing it this way for 25 years.
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Yeah.
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Those are real constraints.
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The the emergent properties of the system have built up patterns of structure that that are now guiding behavior in your organization.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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Or in your mentor or in your personal life, right?
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If you've been doing something the same way for 25 years, you've built neuronal pathways for that thing.
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It's hard to get out of those trenches.
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Those trails in your brain are like trenches and you walk in the trench.
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Yeah.
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Those trails are right.
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So you gotta you gotta physically step out of that trench and decide to walk in the in the forest or the jungle in order to get out of that.
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So those those are real the those are I would say constraints.
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They're not they're not constraints that are insurmountable.
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You know, if you're bumping up against the laws of physics, then those are constraints that are, you know, for all intents and purposes, currently at least insurmountable.
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But most of the time, people aren't bumping up against the laws of physics.
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They're bumping up the laws of sociology or the laws of psychology.
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Right.
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And those are much more malleable laws.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.
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We want everyone in the world on the path to pro.
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White belt, yellow belt, blue belt, landing in the PST credential.
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Aaron Powell The Professional Systems Thinker credential.
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And that's not just personal, it's also part of a wider vision of eight billion systems thinkers above the standard, which is the professional systems thinker or PST.
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Count yourself into it and let's change ourselves.
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And when we change ourselves, we change the world.
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Let's talk through a couple of possible examples of how this can manifest.
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Yeah.
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So, for example, I have a couple of things in mind because we I've had this come up a few times in different types of situations.
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The first one, most common, is an organization that for whatever reason has some bureaucratic constraints, external funding, external stakeholders, and has a bit of a legacy of success right for the way things have been done.
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But but those internal processes and constraints for the people on the ground doing the work actually are a barrier.
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Yeah.
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How do you align both levels, like the front line, the people who are actually executing the work, and the sort of bureaucratic layer on top, which is this is just the way we do it.
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You know, it's funny.
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I think people have the impression that it's a lot easier to change your own mind than it is to change a group of people's minds.
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Yes.
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And I don't know if that's always true.
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I think it's just as your own patterns of behavior, especially patterns of behavior that have led to certain amounts of success in certain periods in your life, are indelibly burned as success stories.
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Yes.
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And they're hard to get over.
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This is why the saying, you know, that what got you here won't get you there.
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Yes.
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Right?
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They're hard to get over because especially
because you've been successful.
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Especially, especially because those mental models helped you get through certain periods, you are sort of more endeared, they're more endeared, you're more endeared to them.
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Yes.
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And so and you've burned those neurons and you've burned those trails and you walk those trails.
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Right?
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Well, the same is true in social sociology, not just psychology, right?
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And but I think people think, boy, it's it's impossible to change the way you know a group of people think.
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Yeah.
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But I want you to think about actual examples that that, you know, if we love reality loop, you know, think let's think of some examples.
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World War II.
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We're not interested in going to war in Vietnam.
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I mean, in uh in in Europe.
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Yes.
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Right?
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All of a sudden we decide to.
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The country writ large changes its course.
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Changes its course in a very short period of time, and you have, you know, women working in factories, children collecting gum wrappers, you know, for saving aluminum and things like that.
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I mean, the whole country shifts.
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Yes.
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And we've had similar, very similar shifts just in the last 10 years, right?
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And shifting this way and then shifting back.
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The the notion that it's hard to change culture, which is the shared mental models of people, or that it's somehow harder to change culture than it is to change your own individual mental models, I don't think is is supported by experience or science.
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I think the assumption that those those two things are wildly different is not entirely supported.
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So that means that, or it indicates that, in both cases, you have to change the mental model.
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Now, getting that done without knowing that, if the mental model of the individual is leading to action, which is a whole set of things, right?
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Or the mental model of the individuals is leading to actions or a whole set of things.
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Yes.
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This is the sociological realm, this is the psychological realm.
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If we cover this up and all we see is this, then it looks hard.
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Because you're like, how do I stop people from behaving this way?
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How do I stop people from doing it this way?
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--> 00:11:23.039
It does you there's nothing to work on.
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Does that make sense?
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And that's why it appears hard.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.
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But that also might be why it appears like that's just the way it is.
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It's just the way it is.
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Because you're just seeing that over and over and over, and you're not seeing the behind the Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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When we uncover this, suddenly we go, oh, there's a mechanism that we can operate on.
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I have agency over that mechanism.
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Either I individually literally have agency over that mechanism, I'm empowered to change it, or I know exactly how to change it in people.
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And there are things I can do to change it.
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But if we don't see this relationship, that the mental models, which are often invisible to us and in many cases unconscious to us, if that's covered up, then I totally understand it.
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You just go, yeah, that's just the way it is.
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Yeah, and it seems intractable.
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It seems intractable.
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Repeating and repeating and repeating.
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There's no mechanism, and there's no agency, there's no empowerment vehicle.
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Yeah.
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You can't you go, how am I gonna do that?
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There's all these people doing all these things, you know.
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Am I gonna grab them and stop them from doing the things?
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No.
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Well, no.
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I mean, you know, that that's one, but obviously that's not gonna happen.
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But you remove the veil, and all of a sudden this is a totally basic problem.
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Aaron Powell Right.
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And I guess what that means to me, practically speaking, is let's say I'm a mid to high level leader inside of a bureaucratic organization and I and I'm now aware of this connection, I'm like, oh, I need to go and find these people and sh and talk to them about why this path is not serving our organization.
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Totally.
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Uncover their current mental model that's leading to this, and then show them a possible alternative that may be sort of updated to the reality.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.
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Let me give you a real-world example of exactly what you just said, right?
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Which is so fascinating to me.
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Right?
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So if if you have a bunch of customers and the customers are doing things, they're acting in ways that you don't like.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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They're not buying your product.
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You're getting feedback.
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You're getting feedback, you know, they're they're not understanding your product, whatever, right?
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What's hilarious to me in in a non-hilarious way.
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Like ironic or funny?
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We know exactly what to do in this situation.
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In this situation, so we'll put situation one.
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In this situation, we know exactly what to do.
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What we do is we use marketing to change the way people think about your product, and we test whether that changes their actions.
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Yes.
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But then, in situation number two, where you have instead of customers, the only difference is that this is an E for employees.
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For employees.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And we don't like how they're operating.
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Right.
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And we go, I don't know what to do.
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Right.
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I see what you're saying.
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We go, it's impossible.
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Yeah.
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How are we gonna change it?
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How are we gonna change it?
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And you're like, just do internal marketing.
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Around the mental.
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Around the mental models that are causing the behavior and the conditions and the actions and the str, you know, whatever they are.
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It's the same thing.
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They're they're both humans.
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Yeah.
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They both create mental models that drive action.
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Yeah, except you have better access to this.
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And you literally have better access to these people.
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You know where they live.
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I mean, it's like a marketing person's dream.
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You know their demographics, you know where they live, you know where they work, you know how to contact them, you have permission to contact them, you pay them, you know where their bank account is.
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Like you're rolling.
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You know everything about them that a marketing person could ever want, but we don't have these wildly successful internal
marketing campaigns like we do with customers.
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Right.
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It's it's almost like a necessity thing.
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It's like when it became a costly necessity to ignore the reality of this situation.
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To ignore that if your customer thinks that your product doesn't do X, so it's not the customer is not buying your product because it doesn't believe that your product does X, and your product does do X, then you have to educate your pa your customers.
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You have to change their mental model that your product does X.
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Yes.
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And then they choose your product.
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Yes, you get the behavior you want.
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You get the behavior you want.
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Yeah.
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Well, and they get what they want.
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And they get what they want.
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Yeah.
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:02.799
Because they didn't know.
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:08.559
We would never in this world, we would never say, oh, it's just that our customers are morons.
00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:10.399
It's just that our customers are wrong.
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:14.559
It's just that our customer No, we never anybody successful isn't saying that.
00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:14.960
Yeah.
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:16.559
You're not saying, well, it's them.
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:18.159
Fire our customers.
00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:18.799
No.
00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:20.799
Hire better customers.
00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:21.679
Right, right.
00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:22.080
Right?
00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:22.320
Yeah.
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.519
You're you're like, our customers are our customers.
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:30.960
We if we create a product that helps them, supports them, does what they then they're gonna buy it.
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:31.600
Right.
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:36.960
But over here, we go, uh yeah, it's just, you know, it's and we just put blame here.
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.279
And as a result, it never gets fixed.
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:39.919
Right.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:48.399
And the other thing is I don't think people are paying attention to I mean, you and I know how much you invest in every single hire.
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:48.879
Yeah.
00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:49.919
Like that's a huge cost.
00:16:50.960 --> 00:17:05.119
Losing an employee is a huge cost because you put so much into the employee when you hire them that it these people should be perceived as valuable, if not more valuable, than the like these are this is an important organization.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:11.680
I would even push you to ask the question: what does that investment really look like?
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:12.799
Same way.
00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:18.720
That investment, in other words, if you've
invested a year in an employee, what have you really invested?
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:24.880
I mean, aside from the money of paying them, what do you what makes that employee valuable after a year?
00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:33.039
It's that they're it's the the fact that their mental models have changed as a result of being in the context of your organization.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:33.519
Yes.
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:34.000
Right?
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:41.359
It's that they know more things, they know how things connect, they know how things lead, what things lead to what things, and all, right?
00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.680
So it's you're literally paying for their mental models to change.
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:49.920
But we're doing it in this random evolutionary walk kind of way.
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:50.319
Yeah.
00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:50.799
Right?
00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:51.119
Yeah.
00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:57.519
It's like, well, let's just like hope that they stumble on the right mental model discovery, Eureka moment.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:04.880
Instead of being like, hey, if we outline the right mental model and we point them to it, we can save the random walks.
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:06.000
Yeah, which takes time.
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.240
Which takes evolutionary time, right?
00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:11.599
So evolutionary time, evolution doesn't care how long things take.
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:11.839
Yeah.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:13.920
But we care how long things take.
00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:17.599
And so evolution loves random walks.
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:21.119
Lots of things are discovered in random walks in evolutionary time.
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:29.119
In you know, the fast-paced life of things, it would be nice if we could shortcut the the evolutionary random walk.
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:29.920
For sure.
00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:41.759
And I think also what's interesting about the phrase that's the way it is, or that's just the way it is, is it has individual implications and it has organizational implications.
00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:42.319
Yeah.
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:49.440
And so one of the things I when I hear it, I say to I say to the person, okay, let's slow down.
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:54.720
First of all, I look for is there a just, which is the sort of defeated part of it.
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:56.559
And I'll say, what is it?
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:02.480
And in a lot of times when you're with a group, it is some variation of something.
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:05.279
Sometimes it's the same thing, sometimes it's the not.
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:06.400
It's not the same thing.
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:07.680
And so that's the first hurdle.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:12.640
Is everybody has their version of that's the way it is, but their it could be different, right?
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.200
100%.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:22.160
And I would I would even take that further and say my autistic tendencies, like pronouns are
really hard for me.
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.240
Like because I never know what pronoun what the pronoun is referring to.
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:26.960
Yes.
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.720
So, and I don't mean pronouns like the way it's talked about today.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:32.559
I mean like actual pronouns.
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:34.799
The grammar of pronouns, right?
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:39.519
It, he, she, you know, those things, it, you know, they, whatever.
00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:40.799
What is the pronoun?
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:49.039
Anytime people are using pronouns, double check that you know which referent the pronoun is referring to.
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:49.440
Yeah.
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:55.119
Because people get very lost in the pronouns and they think they understand.
00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:55.519
Right.
00:19:55.759 --> 00:20:02.240
You know, you could have six people at a table and you hear a a pronoun like they, and you think they who?
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.480
They the customer, they engineering, they sales.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.480
You have three different people thinking three different things because of a pronoun.
00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:10.079
My favorite thing is when they say this.
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.599
Yeah, and I my favorite thing is there's there's a sense like, well, this is different than that.
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:16.319
And I'm not sure.
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:17.759
And you're like, which this is.
00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:22.240
Which this, yeah, this, that, it, those are the really dangerous ones.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:30.720
I'm because to some people that that's the difference, the this is the ones the this, and then you're having this conversation that's just an entanglement of the Trevor Burrus.
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.400
Which is why ooting, object-oriented thinking, is so critically important.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:49.200
Because when you get it out on the table with blocks and you and you see it, and you go, yeah, you know, this is this thing here is made up of these parts, and this thing here is made up of these parts.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:57.920
Well, and then when I say to you, this is not doing the right thing, you know exactly what I'm talking about.
00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:00.400
Like the this is very obvious.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:01.920
Because we built the this.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.480
Yeah, but I would sl I would slow you down a little bit.
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:05.759
I'd say name it.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:07.920
Yeah, no, they're named to begin with.
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:09.359
Right.
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:13.279
Because the biggest thing is we use the same word to mean different things.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.400
Yeah, but different words to mean different.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.440
I wasn't clear there.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:38.960
Like, so so when if we name these things, like this is X and this is Y, what I notice when when groups are using ooting, the blocks or cards on tables, things like that, an a strange and somewhat ironic to this conversation ha thing happens, which is the pronouns that used to be dangerous become almost universal.
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:40.000
Right?
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:40.240
Yeah.
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.359
So in regular speech, pronouns are very dangerous.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:43.680
Yeah.
00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:47.599
Because we often are misinterpreting what they are.
00:21:47.839 --> 00:22:09.440
But when you put things on the table and you can see X and you can see Y and you can use gesture, what I notice in executive groups is they'll say, Yeah, the problem is this thing is a And they'll be referring to very specific things, and there's no mistaking what they are because they're physical things that have been named.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:15.279
Well, and everybody in the room is seeing X and Y, and they're making the same distinction that that person is making.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:22.640
And yet that person literally is using almost entirely pronouns at that point because they're saying this.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:39.680
So the j the combination of the physical object that is named plus the gesture, this versus this, this thing is affecting this thing, you know, it becomes almost like you don't you don't get hung up in the words.
00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.640
You get hung, you you're focused on the structures.
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.200
Yes.
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:48.000
And then communication in a group becomes much, much more cohesive.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:48.559
Yes.
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.559
Which is ironic because they're almost entirely using pronouns at that point.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:53.200
Yes.
00:22:53.359 --> 00:23:03.680
And so for me, I I actually said to this group, I said, that phrase, that's the way it is, should be a red flag in your conversation to stop.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:04.400
Yes.
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:06.000
Deconstruct it.
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:06.559
Yep.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.759
First, whoever said it, say what they meant.
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:10.240
Yep.
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:16.319
Then everyone else involved needs to also speak into what it means to them.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:16.880
Right?
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:23.440
Because if you don't, you're down the road on a whole bunch of thinking errors that are gonna have consequences.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:33.920
Yeah, if you if you unpack that phrase like we're doing, like it's a piece of luggage, and you open it up and you start pulling out underwear and you know all the the different things, yeah.
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.559
It's like, is this a disempowering phrase?
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.319
Are we are we saying is this like a throw your hands up phrase?
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:40.559
Yeah.
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:41.119
I don't know.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:47.119
Does it have the just in it, or does it have that
intonation to it, like this is just the way it is?
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:51.599
Like or is it like a a love reality phase?
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:53.279
Hey, we have to face this?
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:55.359
Those are two different statements.
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.680
And then one is it, like you said, and what is it, what are we talking about?
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.839
Is meaning it it has to be that way?
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:08.000
That there are constraints that make it absolutely have to be that way?
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:12.960
Or is it is like that's the way it is today, but it could be different.
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.000
Yes, and one can be empowering and one can be disempowering.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:22.480
So you can imagine you're in a meeting and your customer base has fallen by 5% in a quarter.
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:24.799
And you say, this is the way it is.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:25.519
This has happened.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:26.480
This has happened.
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:27.920
This exists, this is real.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:29.599
Now we have to respond.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:29.920
Yeah.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:35.200
That's a different flavor than I'm in an organization, I'm like, this is just the way it is.
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.200
I'm not gonna be able to change HR and the way they do this.
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:38.160
Isn't that amazing?
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:38.400
Yeah.
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.279
Like when when it's external, we go, yeah, we can fix that.
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.400
When it's internal, it's like, nah, there's what are we gonna do about that?
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.039
Right.
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:55.680
But to your point about this and this, when it's and what I see a lot is it's that disempowering, this is just the way things are done around here, and I can't change it.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:56.240
Yeah.
00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.039
That is when you say, well, hold on.
00:24:59.200 --> 00:24:59.279
Yeah.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:24:59.920
Let's touch.
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.240
Slow down, let's unpack that baggage.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:09.359
What is the mental model collectively that led to this being the common belief about I'm just saying HR.
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:11.599
This is it's whatever it is.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:12.079
It doesn't matter.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:14.319
HR sales, procurement, whatever.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:15.119
The company.
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:15.920
The department.
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:18.319
The organization, the family.
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:19.759
What is the mental model?
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:20.319
Who had it?
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:21.119
The family.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:26.720
I mean, it's important for people to hear, like, it doesn't really matter what we're talking about here.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:27.599
True.
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:36.559
It could be the department, it could be the organization, it could be your whole government, it could be your whole state, it could be your family, it could be you.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:37.359
Yes.
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:40.799
The same psychosocial rules apply.
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:41.519
Yes.
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:52.160
And the same need to deconstruct and interrogate that statement for yourself, for your family, for your department, your division, whatever.
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:54.559
Non-f your stop and think about it.
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:55.279
Club.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:55.839
Yeah.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:56.400
You know?
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:56.799
Yeah.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:09.759
I think in the case where it's one of that sort of defeated stance, it's do the extra work to figure out the originating mental model that led to that, and then work on that, like you were saying, and then work on that mental model.
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:10.799
That is a good one.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:11.920
That's a meaty one.
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:15.839
The little innocuous statement that has a lot of meat on the bone.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:18.079
Well, you know, but you gotta pack it.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:18.960
Exactly.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:20.319
You gotta unpack that bag.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:24.640
I respect them.
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:26.480
I don't understand them, but I respect them.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:27.680
Well, I understand them.
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:28.480
I mean, really?
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:34.720
Yeah, from there are all kinds of different perspectives on why someone would want to be or would want or need to be.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:35.599
I do understand them.
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.160
I was actually a v a vegan many, many years ago.
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:38.559
I know.
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:43.440
And I was a fruititarian for a while when I was like in my early twenties or something.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:43.839
Yeah.
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:49.200
And I I I it was it had its benefits, but uh I just like meat too much.
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:50.640
That's just the way it is.
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:51.839
That's just the way it is.
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:53.440
Derek, that's just the way it is.
00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:56.640
That's a wrap.