Otto Rank Webinar Interview Notes with Robert Kramer and Kirk Schneider
Event: Otto Rank International Conference Online November 4 and November 5, 2023
Title: “Unleashing Otto Rank: The Creation of Modern Depth Therapy”
YouTube: “Arash’s World Webinar on International Otto Rank Conference with Robert Kramer and Kirk Schneider”
Podcast: “The Work, Insights, Influence and Legacy of Otto Rank with Robert Kramer and Kirk Schneider”
Robert Kramer
Professor of Psychoanalysis, Management and Leadership
Talk and Book: “Otto Rank and the Creation of Modern Psychotherapy”
Kirk Schneider
Psychologist and Psychotherapist
Talk: “Recasting Psychoanalysis in Existential Terms: The Lasting Legacy of Otto Rank”
Book: “Life-Enhancing Anxiety: Key to a Sane World”
In this episode (more of a webinar really!), I have the distinguished pleasure of talking with Robert Kramer and Kirk Schneider, two of the organizers as well as upcoming speakers for the long-awaited and fascinating Otto Rank International Conference to be held online via Zoom on November 4th and 5th!
We talk about the amazing work and wonderful and profound insights provided by Otto Rank, whom theologian Mathew Fox considers a “saint” and who has left a long-lasting legacy, influence, and mark upon various fields and disciplines across time and space. Rank's ideas are still valid, pertinent, and relevant today and, in fact, more so than ever, but sadly, Otto Rank was “canceled” by psychoanalytic circles and was not given the credit and merit he would have and should have deserved.
Failing to acknowledge and consider the life-changing and transformative ideas of this great thinker has been to the detriment of psychoanalysis. Therapy could have been tweaked to help clients not only discover themselves but also to strengthen their "creative will" and to become not only less neurotic and more efficient in life but to enjoy it much more fully and wonderfully. Moreover, Rank has influenced social work and various movements that lead towards greater justice and more peace, compassion, and empathy in the world. His psychology of difference could help many to bridge their differences and become more peaceful and encompassing in their views, opinions, and lifestyles.
Rank’s views were holistic and even cosmic in nature as opposed to the narrow-minded, specialized, medicalized, and mechanistic neuroscientific behavioral model that many in the field of psychology are following nowadays. And though Rank was silenced in his heyday and for various decades thereafter, his presence is still felt in various disciplines and his voice can be heard. You can find out more about this amazing and unique person at the upcoming Otto Rank International Conference 2023 on November 4 and November 5 presented by the Existential Humanistic Institute!
00:59: Robert Kramer Personal Intro:
Applying Otto Rank’s ideas as a consultant and for leadership development for senior managers and executives, corporations and governments and civil society around the world. Not trained as a therapist but found himself attracted to Rank’s fantastic ideas and creative will. Transforming the community you are trying to change. the connection between leadership and followers.
03:27:
His next book will be highlighted at the first International Otto Rank Conference to be held online, on November 4th and 5th. Untold Story of Otto Rank as the Creator of Modern Psychotherapy. Rooted in deeply empathic relationship in the therapeutic situation.
05:27:
Kirk Schneider on Robert Kramer's influential book “The Birth of Relationship Therapy” one of the best books on Rank’s theory and therapeutic ideas. Rank was the founding spirit, voice for existential humanistic therapy, influencing Carl Rogers and Rollo May. The foundation for our anxieties as well as possibilities and our capacity for wonder.
07:52:
The birth experience absolutely formative to existential-humanistic perspective and contemporary psychoanalytic perspective. Shift between relative nonbeing and unity with the mother and with the cosmos to sudden abrupt being and pandemonium as a template for all future anxiety and trauma, as well as possibilities for creativity and discovery. It's about the psychology of difference. How we deal with difference. One’s relationship to existence, the case of parents or culture, positively constricting the creative will.
10:47:
Rank’s “living psychology” and his understanding and interpretation of neurosis.
11:34:
Robert Kramer quoting Rank: “Neurosis is a failure in creativity”. Promoting the creative life force. Rank was influential, although very few people know about it. List of many noteworthy individuals deeply influenced by Rank. Prominent figures in the Arts and Humanities like Samuel Beckett, Anais Nin, Salvador Dali, Betty Friedan, author of “The Feminine Mystique”, Henry Miller, Sylvia Platt, Edgar Schein. Theologian Matthew Fox will be speaking at the conference. Naomi Klein’s recent book “Doppelgaenger” using Rank’s theories to understand artificial intelligence, avatars and difference between reality and fantasy. Ernest Becker and his book “the denial of death” based on Rank. Integrated with Kierkegaard. Woody Allen, and President Bill Clinton.
16:40:
Quote from Beckett 's quote from Becker's book: “There is no substitute for reading”, reading Rank a transformative experience. Not just psychotherapist but profound philosopher. Social critic and wanted social change. Rank worked with feminists, created a new curriculum for social workers to promote social justice. The psychology of difference. Rank cannot be categorized. He does not fit as he is truly interdisciplinary and would never get tenure at a university as he would be “disciplined” by today's professors and universities.
20:07:
How Rank was “cancelled” by Freud and his followers. Kirk Schneider on recasting psychoanalysis on existential terms with Rank. Psychoanalysis would have been much more holistic. “We are all wounded at birth” and we all share it. It's cross-cultural. The facing of groundlessness and helplessness of our existence. Overwhelming if we do not have the equipment to deal with it, given tools to work with it as a “life-enhancing anxiety” not restricted by parental and cultural system per se. Supportive context for child allows for a great deal of inner freedom, both individual and collective.
26:04:
We are identified with the need for sameness. Staying constricted within the same routines and same ideologies and the same dogmas we stick to. on a primal level it's a place we are safe and familiar, in the mother’s and the cosmic womb. Then thrown into this wild existence, as Heidegger puts it. With nothing to grasp onto, it is understandable, but destructive to grasp for sameness.
28:36:
How did I find Otto Rank and stick with his ideas? My own rather frivolous own list of names of various thinkers and their different associations.
31:33:
There was no term “leadership development”. Social workers who were mostly women at the time, to lead others to lead themselves. Inside all of his clients Rank saw the energy of life, the creative life force, the primal cosmic life force. Rank was a cosmic thinker. Taught the social workers to discover and not to suppress their creative will and not just how to fit in society. Using empathic relationships. Listen deeply to what your clients are saying. Rank taught how to listen deeply. Carl Rogers was amazed because he had never heard that from the Freudians. Active listening came about through a social worker who had been a student of Rank’s relation therapy that Rank told Carl Rogers about.
36:10:
Freud telling his students to treat their patients like surgeons. No feelings are allowed to be felt. Rogers brought in a radical shift. Roger’s client-centred therapy. Rank was forgotten because he had suffered from the cancel culture of the Freudians. Later Rank was also influential for the work of Rollo May.
41:09:
R. D. Laing has a ring of truth. Many of his colleagues suffering from “psycho phobia”. The fear of the mind. Some are short-changed or cheated by a therapist coming at them as a doctor with a white coat who going to give them the answer. Being present is key to this whole process. Present to the rebirth of the client. Their unique way of seeing the world, their deeper connection with themselves and with others. Not only looking what is going on with themselves, but how we're going to respond to it. Responsibility as the ability to respond.
46:50:
Robert Kramer On Carl Sagan's pale blue dot video. 3 minutes that will change your life. You do not need interminable analysis. You are a speck of dust on a small piece of rock circling around. That is our existence in the cosmos. We live in outer space. We are part of the whole, and the whole infuses each part of us. We are in the cosmos and the cosmos is in us.
50:14:
Allowing the person to experience their struggle, not just talk about it or report about it, Rank’s creative, experiential therapy. The feeling emerging between the I and the Thou. Rank was so advanced he was a century ahead of this time.
52:09:
The tragedy the psychoanalyst movement cancelled him. They refused to read or quote him. He was forbidden. This really harmed the psychoanalytic cause. His work is not even taught in universities. A dark legacy, but there's light in it, thanks to a few brave souls.
54:42:
Psychology as a field has become more medicalized and mechanized opposing all forms of depth psychology as it moves towards the neuroscientific behavioral model. The value of seeing the whole person rather than just parts or the external. The word “will” not acceptable in mainstream psychoanalytic circles. Dismissed as “mystical”, but the will is the fundamental center of the human soul. In fact, it is the soul. Theologian Matthew Fox considered Rank a saint.
Event: Otto Rank International Conference Online November 4 and November 5, 2023
Title: “Unleashing Otto Rank: The Creation of Modern Depth Therapy”
YouTube: “Arash’s World Webinar on International Otto Rank Conference with Robert Kramer and Kirk Schneider”
Podcast: “The Work, Insights, Influence and Legacy of Otto Rank with Robert Kramer and Kirk Schneider”
Robert Kramer
Professor of Psychoanalysis, Management and Leadership
Talk and Book: “Otto Rank and the Creation of Modern Psychotherapy”
Kirk Schneider
Psychologist and Psychotherapist
Talk: “Recasting Psychoanalysis in Existential Terms: The Lasting Legacy of Otto Rank”
Book: “Life-Enhancing Anxiety: Key to a Sane World”
In this episode (more of a webinar really!), I have the distinguished pleasure of talking with Robert Kramer and Kirk Schneider, two of the organizers as well as upcoming speakers for the long-awaited and fascinating Otto Rank International Conference to be held online via Zoom on November 4th and 5th!
We talk about the amazing work and wonderful and profound insights provided by Otto Rank, whom theologian Mathew Fox considers a “saint” and who has left a long-lasting legacy, influence, and mark upon various fields and disciplines across time and space. Rank's ideas are still valid, pertinent, and relevant today and, in fact, more so than ever, but sadly, Otto Rank was “canceled” by psychoanalytic circles and was not given the credit and merit he would have and should have deserved.
Failing to acknowledge and consider the life-changing and transformative ideas of this great thinker has been to the detriment of psychoanalysis. Therapy could have been tweaked to help clients not only discover themselves but also to strengthen their "creative will" and to become not only less neurotic and more efficient in life but to enjoy it much more fully and wonderfully. Moreover, Rank has influenced social work and various movements that lead towards greater justice and more peace, compassion, and empathy in the world. His psychology of difference could help many to bridge their differences and become more peaceful and encompassing in their views, opinions, and lifestyles.
Rank’s views were holistic and even cosmic in nature as opposed to the narrow-minded, specialized, medicalized, and mechanistic neuroscientific behavioral model that many in the field of psychology are following nowadays. And though Rank was silenced in his heyday and for various decades thereafter, his presence is still felt in various disciplines and his voice can be heard. You can find out more about this amazing and unique person at the upcoming Otto Rank International Conference 2023 on November 4 and November 5 presented by the Existential Humanistic Institute!
00:59: Robert Kramer Personal Intro:
Applying Otto Rank’s ideas as a consultant and for leadership development for senior managers and executives, corporations and governments and civil society around the world. Not trained as a therapist but found himself attracted to Rank’s fantastic ideas and creative will. Transforming the community you are trying to change. the connection between leadership and followers.
03:27:
His next book will be highlighted at the first International Otto Rank Conference to be held online, on November 4th and 5th. Untold Story of Otto Rank as the Creator of Modern Psychotherapy. Rooted in deeply empathic relationship in the therapeutic situation.
05:27:
Kirk Schneider on Robert Kramer's influential book “The Birth of Relationship Therapy” one of the best books on Rank’s theory and therapeutic ideas. Rank was the founding spirit, voice for existential humanistic therapy, influencing Carl Rogers and Rollo May. The foundation for our anxieties as well as possibilities and our capacity for wonder.
07:52:
The birth experience absolutely formative to existential-humanistic perspective and contemporary psychoanalytic perspective. Shift between relative nonbeing and unity with the mother and with the cosmos to sudden abrupt being and pandemonium as a template for all future anxiety and trauma, as well as possibilities for creativity and discovery. It's about the psychology of difference. How we deal with difference. One’s relationship to existence, the case of parents or culture, positively constricting the creative will.
10:47:
Rank’s “living psychology” and his understanding and interpretation of neurosis.
11:34:
Robert Kramer quoting Rank: “Neurosis is a failure in creativity”. Promoting the creative life force. Rank was influential, although very few people know about it. List of many noteworthy individuals deeply influenced by Rank. Prominent figures in the Arts and Humanities like Samuel Beckett, Anais Nin, Salvador Dali, Betty Friedan, author of “The Feminine Mystique”, Henry Miller, Sylvia Platt, Edgar Schein. Theologian Matthew Fox will be speaking at the conference. Naomi Klein’s recent book “Doppelgaenger” using Rank’s theories to understand artificial intelligence, avatars and difference between reality and fantasy. Ernest Becker and his book “the denial of death” based on Rank. Integrated with Kierkegaard. Woody Allen, and President Bill Clinton.
16:40:
Quote from Beckett 's quote from Becker's book: “There is no substitute for reading”, reading Rank a transformative experience. Not just psychotherapist but profound philosopher. Social critic and wanted social change. Rank worked with feminists, created a new curriculum for social workers to promote social justice. The psychology of difference. Rank cannot be categorized. He does not fit as he is truly interdisciplinary and would never get tenure at a university as he would be “disciplined” by today's professors and universities.
20:07:
How Rank was “cancelled” by Freud and his followers. Kirk Schneider on recasting psychoanalysis on existential terms with Rank. Psychoanalysis would have been much more holistic. “We are all wounded at birth” and we all share it. It's cross-cultural. The facing of groundlessness and helplessness of our existence. Overwhelming if we do not have the equipment to deal with it, given tools to work with it as a “life-enhancing anxiety” not restricted by parental and cultural system per se. Supportive context for child allows for a great deal of inner freedom, both individual and collective.
26:04:
We are identified with the need for sameness. Staying constricted within the same routines and same ideologies and the same dogmas we stick to. on a primal level it's a place we are safe and familiar, in the mother’s and the cosmic womb. Then thrown into this wild existence, as Heidegger puts it. With nothing to grasp onto, it is understandable, but destructive to grasp for sameness.
28:36:
How did I find Otto Rank and stick with his ideas? My own rather frivolous own list of names of various thinkers and their different associations.
31:33:
There was no term “leadership development”. Social workers who were mostly women at the time, to lead others to lead themselves. Inside all of his clients Rank saw the energy of life, the creative life force, the primal cosmic life force. Rank was a cosmic thinker. Taught the social workers to discover and not to suppress their creative will and not just how to fit in society. Using empathic relationships. Listen deeply to what your clients are saying. Rank taught how to listen deeply. Carl Rogers was amazed because he had never heard that from the Freudians. Active listening came about through a social worker who had been a student of Rank’s relation therapy that Rank told Carl Rogers about.
36:10:
Freud telling his students to treat their patients like surgeons. No feelings are allowed to be felt. Rogers brought in a radical shift. Roger’s client-centred therapy. Rank was forgotten because he had suffered from the cancel culture of the Freudians. Later Rank was also influential for the work of Rollo May.
41:09:
R. D. Laing has a ring of truth. Many of his colleagues suffering from “psycho phobia”. The fear of the mind. Some are short-changed or cheated by a therapist coming at them as a doctor with a white coat who going to give them the answer. Being present is key to this whole process. Present to the rebirth of the client. Their unique way of seeing the world, their deeper connection with themselves and with others. Not only looking what is going on with themselves, but how we're going to respond to it. Responsibility as the ability to respond.
46:50:
Robert Kramer On Carl Sagan's pale blue dot video. 3 minutes that will change your life. You do not need interminable analysis. You are a speck of dust on a small piece of rock circling around. That is our existence in the cosmos. We live in outer space. We are part of the whole, and the whole infuses each part of us. We are in the cosmos and the cosmos is in us.
50:14:
Allowing the person to experience their struggle, not just talk about it or report about it, Rank’s creative, experiential therapy. The feeling emerging between the I and the Thou. Rank was so advanced he was a century ahead of this time.
52:09:
The tragedy the psychoanalyst movement cancelled him. They refused to read or quote him. He was forbidden. This really harmed the psychoanalytic cause. His work is not even taught in universities. A dark legacy, but there's light in it, thanks to a few brave souls.
54:42:
Psychology as a field has become more medicalized and mechanized opposing all forms of depth psychology as it moves towards the neuroscientific behavioral model. The value of seeing the whole person rather than just parts or the external. The word “will” not acceptable in mainstream psychoanalytic circles. Dismissed as “mystical”, but the will is the fundamental center of the human soul. In fact, it is the soul. Theologian Matthew Fox considered Rank a saint.
