The Human Algorithm and Danger to Civilization의 전체 녹취록

and it doesn't just come back in a day. 38 00:01:51.299 --> 00:01:53.019 We're going to need to reprove ourselves. 39 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:55.980 Though that being said, there's an elected leader, and then 40 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:58.659 there's democracy holding. The other thing that we have to 41 00:01:58.700 --> 00:02:01.159 remember as Americans is that some other countries have been 42 00:02:01.180 --> 00:02:04.260 doing this a lot longer than we have. So in 43 00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:07.310 that sense, the perspective is very, very different. They've seen 44 00:02:07.349 --> 00:02:08.930 a lot of the highs and lows. We're kind of 45 00:02:08.949 --> 00:02:11.389 the teenager in the mix. whereas some of these other 46 00:02:11.469 --> 00:02:13.770 countries have been doing this a lot longer. So in 47 00:02:13.789 --> 00:02:16.810 that sense, there's this steadier sense of highs and lows. 48 00:02:16.849 --> 00:02:18.210 But yeah, they're watching very carefully. 49 00:02:18.469 --> 00:02:20.169 Whether you like it or not, we are one of 50 00:02:20.189 --> 00:02:22.050 the biggest players in the world, and everyone has to 51 00:02:22.069 --> 00:02:22.710 watch what we're doing. 52 00:02:23.169 --> 00:02:25.590 Well, in all fairness, we are the biggest player. We 53 00:02:25.629 --> 00:02:30.719 have the biggest GDP. Technologically, we are the most advanced. Militarily, 54 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:34.259 we are the strongest. I've always maintained, if you have 55 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:37.939 a strong America... you have a strong world. If you 56 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:41.169 have a weak America, you have a weak world. Now, 57 00:02:41.370 --> 00:02:48.569 while America is still economically, militarily, technologically thriving, yes, our 58 00:02:48.669 --> 00:02:52.900 standing in the world has taken a massive, massive hit. 59 00:02:53.460 --> 00:02:54.960 Where do we go from here? 60 00:02:56.400 --> 00:02:58.759 It's a beautiful segue. And of course, I'm not surprised 61 00:02:58.780 --> 00:03:00.280 to hear you say that. And of course, as a 62 00:03:00.300 --> 00:03:02.419 proud American, I feel a lot of the same way. 63 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:05.169 I'm going to say something a little bit controversial, perhaps 64 00:03:05.210 --> 00:03:06.479 a little bit radical here right now. 65 00:03:06.490 --> 00:03:08.770 Not too controversial for this show, Flynn. 66 00:03:09.069 --> 00:03:10.270 Let me be very clear. 67 00:03:10.550 --> 00:03:14.110 This show, When You Know You Know Unleashed, this is 68 00:03:14.189 --> 00:03:17.460 where you say what's on your mind. 69 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:19.719 Okay, well, I'm going to say what's on my mind. 70 00:03:19.780 --> 00:03:21.439 And it might not be a take you here every day. 71 00:03:21.539 --> 00:03:23.259 But What I'd like to say is that when I 72 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:25.199 say one of the strongest powers in the world, of 73 00:03:25.300 --> 00:03:28.139 course it goes without saying our

military spends more than 74 00:03:28.180 --> 00:03:31.620 the next 20 militaries combined. We are massive. I'm a 75 00:03:31.659 --> 00:03:34.340 proud American. It's given me everything that I have in 76 00:03:34.379 --> 00:03:37.060 this world. I will say, though, that the changing to 77 00:03:37.099 --> 00:03:40.789 a multipolar world might actually be a benefit to us. 78 00:03:40.849 --> 00:03:44.110 If we can take our place within a community of nations, 79 00:03:44.169 --> 00:03:46.810 as opposed to always having to be on top, my 80 00:03:46.870 --> 00:03:49.689 suggestion is that actually might be really, really good for us. 81 00:03:49.969 --> 00:03:51.689 And there's a lot of things that might open up 82 00:03:51.750 --> 00:03:53.770 if we can stop having to prove that we are 83 00:03:53.810 --> 00:03:55.569 the only, we are the best, we are the greatest, 84 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:57.879 and actually take our place and start to really solve 85 00:03:57.900 --> 00:03:59.960 some problems, not only in our own democracy, but around 86 00:03:59.979 --> 00:04:00.319 the world. 87 00:04:01.030 --> 00:04:05.990 That's a very interesting comment is right. You know, obviously, 88 00:04:06.009 --> 00:04:08.840 when you're number one, you'd never want to be pushed 89 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.180 out to number two. You know, when they were talking 90 00:04:11.219 --> 00:04:16.060 about potentially China was trying to become, you know, become 91 00:04:16.100 --> 00:04:18.939 the currency as opposed to the greenback to the U.S. 92 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:19.459 Dollar. 93 00:04:19.819 --> 00:04:24.860 That obviously creates a very significant problem for Americans as well. 94 00:04:25.829 --> 00:04:29.550 We enjoy being number one. That's why we spend so 95 00:04:29.589 --> 00:04:32.730 much money on what we do. I'm not so sure 96 00:04:33.029 --> 00:04:36.370 that America being number two, who would take over then 97 00:04:36.750 --> 00:04:37.649 as number two? 98 00:04:38.290 --> 00:04:41.250 China? Would it be certainly not Russia? 99 00:04:41.569 --> 00:04:45.870 It certainly wouldn't be the UK or France or Italy. 100 00:04:46.230 --> 00:04:49.050 Who would be, who's in the running to be number two? 101 00:04:49.290 --> 00:04:50.410 That's the real question. 102 00:04:51.149 --> 00:04:53.029 Well, I think that there are some different ways to 103 00:04:53.069 --> 00:04:53.449 frame it. 104 00:04:53.500 --> 00:04:55.879 So having spent time in many of the places you 105 00:04:55.899 --> 00:04:58.839 just mentioned, having studied their work there, live all over 106 00:04:58.860 --> 00:05:01.019 the world and talk to people, whether it's in government 107 00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:03.399 or just people, you know, friends, colleagues that do a 108 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.560 lot of this work, fighting the human rights battles, working 109 00:05:06.620 --> 00:05:07.720 on diplomacy every day. 110 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:09.829 I think there's another way to think about it. 111 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:12.029 I think, of course, that becomes the question when you're 112 00:05:12.110 --> 00:05:14.110 only thinking in terms of number one and number two. 113 00:05:14.620 --> 00:05:17.199 But I do think geopolitically, we're moving into a different 114 00:05:17.220 --> 00:05:20.180 type of chessboard. We're looking at a multipolar world. And 115 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.959 after World War II, of course, there was the superpower race, 116 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.279 and the US won the Cold War. But we're in 117 00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:27.339 a different type of world now. And in terms of 118 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:31.019 national security, we have to make sure, like you said, China, Russia, 119 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:34.199 we have to be pushing back against authoritarian threats all 120 00:05:34.259 --> 00:05:34.790 over the world. 121 00:05:35.170 --> 00:05:36.069 That being said, a. 122 00:05:36.269 --> 00:05:38.350 Lot of the crises that we face, dare I say 123 00:05:38.410 --> 00:05:41.910 the most important crises that we face, from artificial intelligence, 124 00:05:42.230 --> 00:05:45.449 to climate, to nuclear, to war, to terrorism. I mean, 125 00:05:45.490 --> 00:05:47.970 that's a good example of how they're crossing borders now. 126 00:05:48.009 --> 00:05:51.829 We need to learn to work in community as collaborators. 127 00:05:52.100 --> 00:05:55.120 I have been an athlete my whole life, and team sports, 128 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:56.920 I always say, has taught me everything I need to 129 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:58.160 know about being a human being. 130 00:05:58.259 --> 00:05:59.519 All right, first of all, you've got to tell us, 131 00:05:59.579 --> 00:06:00.300 what was the sport? 132 00:06:01.420 --> 00:06:03.660 Soccer, so soccer is one of the things that took 133 00:06:03.699 --> 00:06:05.649 me all around the world since I was a little 134 00:06:05.689 --> 00:06:08.009 girl and it's actually a really good metaphor because the 135 00:06:08.050 --> 00:06:10.149 reason I was able to play soccer since I was 136 00:06:10.189 --> 00:06:12.350 five years old is because in the US for women 137 00:06:12.389 --> 00:06:14.269 to do that has always been completely normal. 138 00:06:14.310 --> 00:06:17.060 It's given me everything I ever wanted. On the other hand, 139 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:18.920 soccer has taken me all around the world. 140 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:20.759 It's a perfect metaphor for this and I've been able 141 00:06:20.779 --> 00:06:23.399 to have these conversations and being able to work as 142 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:26.000 a team with other nations is incredibly important for all 143 00:06:26.019 --> 00:06:28.329 the threats we're facing. So if we don't think in 144 00:06:28.370 --> 00:06:30.829 terms of number one and number two, and not everything 145 00:06:30.889 --> 00:06:33.050 is a race to number one or number two, it's 146 00:06:33.089 --> 00:06:36.029 kind of like

what we do in futurism and forecasting 147 00:06:36.069 --> 00:06:38.990 and scenario planning. If you're already set on something like 148 00:06:39.110 --> 00:06:41.569 one or two, you actually miss a lot of opportunities 149 00:06:41.850 --> 00:06:44.410 for building different futures that don't exist, which is why, 150 00:06:44.449 --> 00:06:47.500 for example, a lot of corporations and tech companies actually 151 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:50.170 hire people like science fiction writers to help imagine a 152 00:06:50.189 --> 00:06:54.040 better world, because we need that moral and societal imagination 153 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:54.459 to build. 154 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:54.819 A better world. 155 00:06:55.290 --> 00:06:59.540 Well, obviously, you never saw the movie Ricky Bobby, right? 156 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:02.879 What was the name of that movie with Will Ferrell? 157 00:07:03.139 --> 00:07:05.639 If you ain't first, you last, right? 158 00:07:05.819 --> 00:07:07.540 I do love Will Ferrell, so shout out to Will Ferrell. 159 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:09.180 Well, there you go. 160 00:07:09.579 --> 00:07:11.399 So I do want to say to you, because everybody 161 00:07:11.459 --> 00:07:14.379 seems to think that obviously the Democrats are going to 162 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:18.019 take the House and that Hakeem Jeffries is going to 163 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:22.620 be the next speaker and turned loose with the gavel. 164 00:07:23.060 --> 00:07:25.709 Now- I'm not sure it's going to be that simple, 165 00:07:25.850 --> 00:07:32.170 because there's a pretty wide ideological canyon between, let's say, 166 00:07:32.410 --> 00:07:37.389 the Democratic establishment and its progressive wing. I, myself, happen 167 00:07:37.430 --> 00:07:42.120 to be a lifelong Democrat. Now, in my party, you've 168 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.740 got moderates, you've got these Democratic socialists, and you have 169 00:07:46.060 --> 00:07:50.680 everyone in between, all, of course, supposedly rowing in the 170 00:07:50.740 --> 00:07:54.579 same direction. Now, that, of course, is bullshit. Everybody's rowing 171 00:07:54.819 --> 00:07:59.129 in different directions. How long before the boat starts to 172 00:07:59.189 --> 00:08:02.329 take on water, right? Is Jeffries really going to have 173 00:08:02.389 --> 00:08:06.449 the votes and the political muscle to control his own caucus? 174 00:08:06.949 --> 00:08:12.370 Or could Democrats find themselves dealing with the same internal 175 00:08:12.430 --> 00:08:16.689 dysfunction that they have spent the last God knows how 176 00:08:16.730 --> 00:08:19.610 many years criticizing Republicans for? 177 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:23.100 I think this is cracking open one of the key 178 00:08:23.180 --> 00:08:26.019 issues in this election and in this cycle, which is 179 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:31.769 a shift in these bipartisan policies and these very, very 180 00:08:31.889 --> 00:08:35.370 rigid political parties that haven't necessarily served us so well 181 00:08:35.409 --> 00:08:38.389 because we've had so many deadlocks. And the thing about 182 00:08:38.429 --> 00:08:40.710 the Democrats, of course, is that the idea, you had 183 00:08:40.730 --> 00:08:42.090 just said it, is the big tent. 184 00:08:42.529 --> 00:08:44.750 And that's supposed to be one of the big strengths, right? 185 00:08:44.950 --> 00:08:46.710 Everyone is welcome. Everyone is involved. 186 00:08:46.990 --> 00:08:49.129 But kind of like the US itself, and you see 187 00:08:49.169 --> 00:08:51.419 a lot of parallels, for example, which has happened in Brazil. 188 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:53.830 I always try to remind people we are a big, 189 00:08:54.409 --> 00:08:58.700 unruly place that's kind of founded on this very anti-authority streak, 190 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.559 and we're really hard to govern. And you can't, a 191 00:09:01.620 --> 00:09:04.019 lot of these examples, for example, building out a digital 192 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:08.679 democracy in Taiwan, or Estonia, or Scandinavia, there's some beautiful examples, 193 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.899 but you can't exactly make an analogy, because we're this 194 00:09:11.980 --> 00:09:13.970 big unruly place. I mean, New York City, where I'm 195 00:09:13.990 --> 00:09:16.450 right now, in and of itself, we are unruly. But 196 00:09:16.470 --> 00:09:18.970 I really get examples from the New York City Marathon yesterday, 197 00:09:19.029 --> 00:09:20.710 one of my favorite days in New York City, and 198 00:09:20.730 --> 00:09:24.409 the crowds are enormous. millions of people watching, 60,000 people running. 199 00:09:24.769 --> 00:09:26.610 And when the ambulances need to come through, when a 200 00:09:26.649 --> 00:09:29.350 runner's coming through, we move very peacefully as a crowd. 201 00:09:29.669 --> 00:09:31.429 So my point is to say that the Big Ten 202 00:09:31.470 --> 00:09:33.350 is important, but we have to move like a school 203 00:09:33.389 --> 00:09:35.269 of fish. And what you just said, you know, the 204 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.919 influx of new forms of democracy and, you know, DSA, 205 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.320 Justice Democrats, it's always this process of pushing the envelope. 206 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.059 And what was establishment then just simply wasn't working. And 207 00:09:46.100 --> 00:09:48.139 so we have to make room for the new. And 208 00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:51.419 that can be very hard because just cognitively speaking, The 209 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:54.620 hardest thing for the human mind to do is change course. 210 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:57.429 There's a reason we don't like to change course. You 211 00:09:57.490 --> 00:10:01.659 literally need to build new neurons in your brain to 212 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:04.080 change your mind. So that plus the ego and it's 213 00:10:04.100 --> 00:10:06.179 very hard. That being said, it could be the greatest 214 00:10:06.259 --> 00:10:08.720 strength to

say this is who we are and we 215 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.059 need to take ideas from all different sides of the party. 216 00:10:11.100 --> 00:10:13.870 But You know, old guard doesn't like new guard because 217 00:10:13.909 --> 00:10:16.269 it means changing your mind. That being said, it's happening 218 00:10:16.289 --> 00:10:18.350 in the Republican Party as well. And we need to 219 00:10:18.389 --> 00:10:20.149 be prepared for that. I mean, there was a time 220 00:10:20.509 --> 00:10:22.570 when the Democrats stood for something very different. 221 00:10:22.629 --> 00:10:24.830 Abraham Lincoln himself was a Republican, right? 222 00:10:25.210 --> 00:10:27.470 Things shift and all we have to do as humans 223 00:10:27.549 --> 00:10:29.409 is learn to ride that wave and try to open 224 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:30.769 up our minds and shift with it. 225 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:34.740 Unless, of course, we could find some way to influx 226 00:10:34.820 --> 00:10:37.889 into people's head acetylcholine and we'll try to get those 227 00:10:37.990 --> 00:10:42.330 neurons synapsing a little bit better. Because I believe that Americans, 228 00:10:43.070 --> 00:10:47.620 so many Americans, have become absolutely brain dead with this 229 00:10:48.019 --> 00:10:53.059 whole concept of noxious optimism. It's almost like, I mean, 230 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:57.440 imagine when you were a kid. And your parents come 231 00:10:57.500 --> 00:10:58.919 to your soccer. 232 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.720 Game, right? You're like, you're a little Dr. Flynn Coleman 233 00:11:02.139 --> 00:11:03.240 at that time, right? 234 00:11:03.419 --> 00:11:06.120 Where your shorts are too big, they're falling off you 235 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.899 as you're running, right? You know, your folks buy you 236 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:10.919 the shoes that's like one size too big because they 237 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:13.700 know your feet are growing faster than a weed. And 238 00:11:13.740 --> 00:11:17.980 the next thing you know, you're losing. You're down to nothing. 239 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:21.039 And there's like five minutes left in the game. And 240 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:23.750 they're cheering you on saying, no, no, don't worry about it. 241 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:24.679 You're winning. 242 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:29.870 And you're like, wait, the scoreboard says 2-0. But that's 243 00:11:29.929 --> 00:11:33.629 the problem with this noxious optimism where you refuse to 244 00:11:33.820 --> 00:11:35.820 acknowledge the other side. 245 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.940 You refuse to acknowledge reality. And all that you're. 246 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:45.590 Really doing is ascribing to whatever your party's politics are. 247 00:11:46.259 --> 00:11:52.620 And that is and has become extremely dangerous in America because, again, 248 00:11:53.100 --> 00:11:56.870 when you're number one, our GDP, and I'm going to 249 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:58.870 go right back to it, is two and

a half 250 00:11:58.950 --> 00:12:03.190 times the size of China, the country that wants to 251 00:12:03.250 --> 00:12:06.490 take us down. We are two and a half times 252 00:12:06.529 --> 00:12:09.009 their size. We are the biggest consumers in the world. 253 00:12:09.070 --> 00:12:14.009 And again, militarily, technologically, we are the most advanced nation 254 00:12:14.350 --> 00:12:18.009 in the history of the earth. I cannot see why 255 00:12:18.220 --> 00:12:21.279 anybody would be fighting. Yes, there are things that we 256 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:24.559 can fight about. I acknowledge that. There are always things 257 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:26.940 to argue and fight about. But we have taken it 258 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:33.129 to a different level where Let's say you have, instead 259 00:12:33.149 --> 00:12:37.580 of repainting your house, instead, I'm just going to burn 260 00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:40.620 the house down. That's become the new ideology. 261 00:12:42.350 --> 00:12:43.429 Very interesting in there. 262 00:12:43.490 --> 00:12:45.389 One thing I was laughing about is that my soccer 263 00:12:45.409 --> 00:12:48.549 coach always famously used to say that 2-0 is the 264 00:12:48.610 --> 00:12:52.070 most dangerous lead in soccer. So you're exactly right. You 265 00:12:52.090 --> 00:12:53.889 think it's in the bag. You start to get complacent. 266 00:12:53.909 --> 00:12:55.190 You see it all the time. 267 00:12:54.929 --> 00:12:55.470 In the games. 268 00:12:56.169 --> 00:12:58.850 I played rugby and our coaches used to say. 269 00:12:58.450 --> 00:12:59.970 The same thing. There you go, right? And it's a 270 00:12:59.990 --> 00:13:00.529 perfect analogy. 271 00:13:00.549 --> 00:13:03.149 You get a little complacent and then suddenly anyone with 272 00:13:03.190 --> 00:13:05.309 a little heart, soul, and a little teamwork can come 273 00:13:05.350 --> 00:13:07.789 back and score two goals and suddenly you're there. So 274 00:13:07.830 --> 00:13:10.269 I do think, again, thinking about this framework of number 275 00:13:10.429 --> 00:13:12.509 one and number two is a little bit you know, 276 00:13:12.750 --> 00:13:15.940 problematic for the world. That being said, when we're going 277 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:18.960 up against authoritarian China, we absolutely have to win some 278 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:20.759 of those races. You know, the future of the world 279 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:22.519 is at stake, but I think we need to do 280 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:25.080 it our way. One of the most powerful things about 281 00:13:25.100 --> 00:13:27.629 the United States is our innovation. 282 00:13:27.769 --> 00:13:28.429 Our creativity. 283 00:13:28.549 --> 00:13:31.809 People come here to feel that freedom that you can 284 00:13:31.889 --> 00:13:33.769 start a business, that you can start over. 285 00:13:33.830 --> 00:13:35.269 That you can do innovative things. 286 00:13:35.330 --> 00:13:36.789 And people take for granted that in a lot

of 287 00:13:36.830 --> 00:13:39.809 other places that you don't necessarily have that freedom. So 288 00:13:39.850 --> 00:13:41.970 we have to protect that with our bare hands, but 289 00:13:42.029 --> 00:13:43.129 that means. 290 00:13:43.110 --> 00:13:44.490 People need a livable future. 291 00:13:44.889 --> 00:13:47.769 They need to spend less than 50% on their rent, right? 292 00:13:47.809 --> 00:13:49.509 They need to be able to buy things, go to 293 00:13:49.549 --> 00:13:52.450 the grocery store. We need to encourage people to be 294 00:13:52.470 --> 00:13:54.529 able to feel like they can afford to have families. 295 00:13:54.909 --> 00:13:57.289 So the thing is, it's great to talk about geopolitics 296 00:13:57.350 --> 00:13:59.330 and the abstract and this and that and the elections. 297 00:13:59.350 --> 00:14:01.370 But what we really need to talk about is all 298 00:14:01.409 --> 00:14:05.000 politics is local. The studies all show the same thing. 299 00:14:05.059 --> 00:14:07.820 When people feel secure and when they feel like they 300 00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:09.899 can put food on the table, they are creative. They 301 00:14:09.940 --> 00:14:13.440 are entrepreneurial. They light themselves on fire. All of these things, 302 00:14:13.539 --> 00:14:16.620 even something, for example, like cash handouts. The myth is that, oh, 303 00:14:16.659 --> 00:14:17.460 it makes people lazy. 304 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:18.159 It doesn't. 305 00:14:18.460 --> 00:14:21.600 When you know you can feed your family and get gas, 306 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:23.649 when you know you can vote and have a say 307 00:14:23.690 --> 00:14:26.809 in your future, you become entrepreneurial, you become creative because 308 00:14:26.830 --> 00:14:28.509 you're not so in survival mode. 309 00:14:28.529 --> 00:14:31.899 What the ego is, is survival mode. That's what war is. 310 00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:35.799 Okay, but Flynn, Flynn, when was the last time in 311 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:39.899 America that people had that feeling that everything was affordable? 312 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:43.570 Because this bullshit with the gas, all right, if it 313 00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:46.690 wasn't gas before the bullshit of gas, it was eggs. 314 00:14:46.789 --> 00:14:50.289 And before eggs, it was soft lumber. And before soft lumber, 315 00:14:50.549 --> 00:14:54.250 it was steel. And before steel, it was toilet paper. 316 00:14:54.590 --> 00:14:59.870 I mean, seriously, right? We have never felt because everybody wants, wants, wants. 317 00:14:59.950 --> 00:15:04.029 We are tremendous consumers. I get that. But, you know, 318 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:09.139 there's also an obligation. And as humans, we should want 319 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.159 to achieve on our own instead of having, you know, 320 00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:19.919 everything handed, you know, handed to us simply because we 321 00:15:20.019 --> 00:15:20.779 are Americans. 322 00:15:21.789 --> 00:15:23.129 Ah, well, I

love this. 323 00:15:23.610 --> 00:15:26.889 I love that you segued again beautifully into this because 324 00:15:27.350 --> 00:15:30.840 I do think another radical take coming at you fast. 325 00:15:31.230 --> 00:15:33.990 Which is that it is another myth that anyone does 326 00:15:34.110 --> 00:15:37.830 anything alone. New York City Marathon yesterday is a perfect example. 327 00:15:37.870 --> 00:15:41.389 You are literally running 26.2 miles, right? And you have 328 00:15:41.429 --> 00:15:43.409 to train for that. And you should get all the 329 00:15:43.450 --> 00:15:46.129 glory that comes from hearing people cheer your name. But 330 00:15:46.509 --> 00:15:49.139 no one gets there without the support of their families, 331 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:51.759 without the energy of people cheering them on. And yes, 332 00:15:51.860 --> 00:15:54.299 of course, if you make money, you want to start 333 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:55.259 a business, that's great. 334 00:15:55.299 --> 00:15:57.570 You should keep a huge share of that. What about 335 00:15:57.610 --> 00:15:59.169 the roads that you drive on? 336 00:15:59.470 --> 00:16:02.659 What about all the infrastructure that's, yes, being built now, 337 00:16:02.700 --> 00:16:05.600 but that was built before that makes everything you do possible? 338 00:16:06.100 --> 00:16:09.139 Like it or not, we live in a collective global 339 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:10.539 society now more than ever. 340 00:16:10.580 --> 00:16:13.419 Without a livable planet, none of these conversations matters. 341 00:16:13.740 --> 00:16:17.240 So yes, it's all about having that individual fire and creativity, 342 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:19.960 but no one in this world does anything alone. You 343 00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:23.330 can't do it without stoplights, without potholes being fixed, right? 344 00:16:23.370 --> 00:16:25.269 You can't drive your car. It's very, very simple. 345 00:16:25.309 --> 00:16:27.789 And so I think that kind of seeing ourselves as 346 00:16:27.850 --> 00:16:30.019 part of that web of humanity and part of that 347 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:30.879 community of nations. 348 00:16:31.220 --> 00:16:34.620 It actually makes us stronger. Any, any sports fan will 349 00:16:34.659 --> 00:16:36.320 agree with me here. I'm sorry. If you look at 350 00:16:36.340 --> 00:16:38.179 the right, no one does anything alone. 351 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:40.840 We're picked up by our coaches, our friends, our family, 352 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:43.940 even the fire of the opposing team picks us up. 353 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:46.370 Even if you're, I used to run track, for example, 354 00:16:46.669 --> 00:16:49.350 none of that happens without training as a community, as 355 00:16:49.409 --> 00:16:51.429 a team. That's how we get pushed farther. So it's 356 00:16:51.490 --> 00:16:55.149 a myth that rugged individualism that is very, very ingrained. 357 00:16:55.450 --> 00:16:57.409 And it's a myth that has some power is also 358 00:16:57.450 --> 00:16:58.789 very dangerous to our thinking. 359 00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:00.289 We live in a collective society. 360 00:17:00.750 --> 00:17:03.110 Like it or not, and the government should be there 361 00:17:03.450 --> 00:17:05.549 to help us survive so that we can then build 362 00:17:05.589 --> 00:17:07.309 our own dreams on our own terms, but we simply 363 00:17:07.349 --> 00:17:08.109 can't do that alone. 364 00:17:08.549 --> 00:17:10.859 Well, then I'm going to allow this to be the 365 00:17:10.890 --> 00:17:14.740 segue into my next question to you, which is, again, 366 00:17:14.859 --> 00:17:17.480 assuming that the Democrats take the House, and I think 367 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:22.339 it's a fair assumption historically, we both know that Washington, 368 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:27.180 they're not going to spend the first morning congratulating itself and, 369 00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:30.640 you know, getting down to the business of governing. That's 370 00:17:30.700 --> 00:17:36.160 just nonsense. Subpoenas will start flying. Investigations are now going 371 00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:40.589 to begin. Impeachment will undoubtedly find its way back into 372 00:17:40.609 --> 00:17:45.029 the conversation. But, Flynn, here's what I want to know. 373 00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:49.730 What's the actual endgame? You keep talking about the marathon. 374 00:17:50.329 --> 00:17:53.210 I was there yesterday, too, cheering on people. I was 375 00:17:53.309 --> 00:17:57.650 actually helping Caroline Schinkel. I was walking around with her 376 00:17:57.730 --> 00:18:01.319 and handing out placards and meeting people on the street, 377 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:03.240 trying to get them to vote for her. 378 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:07.380 So you're right. It is a team sport. 379 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:09.980 And everyone that I saw walk by me with the 380 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:12.980 medal around their neck, I congratulate them. And you would 381 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.250 see how they would smile, because many of them knew 382 00:18:16.309 --> 00:18:16.869 who I was. 383 00:18:17.190 --> 00:18:19.730 Some of them hate me. But the ones that like me, 384 00:18:19.769 --> 00:18:21.609 they're like, oh, my God, thank you so much. You're right. 385 00:18:21.750 --> 00:18:24.730 It is not. Nothing is individual anymore. 386 00:18:25.369 --> 00:18:25.569 But. 387 00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:29.089 Question that I really want to ask you, since, again, 388 00:18:29.109 --> 00:18:33.559 this is now becoming a team sport, Republican versus Democrat. 389 00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:39.299 Do the Democrats go after individual members of the administration, starting, 390 00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:43.150 as they have all said, with figures like Pete Hegseth, 391 00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:46.819 our Secretary of War? Or do they go after Trump's 392 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:51.700 kids or other administration officials and their families? Or, again, 393 00:18:52.000 -->

00:18:57.089 is this ultimately about going after President Trump himself? And 394 00:18:57.130 --> 00:19:05.029 at what point does legitimate congressional oversight become political retaliation 395 00:19:05.329 --> 00:19:08.759 dressed up as constitutional responsibility? 396 00:19:09.410 --> 00:19:11.839 A very interesting question and obviously something that I can 397 00:19:11.859 --> 00:19:14.269 imagine is very personal to you. Yes. 398 00:19:14.730 --> 00:19:14.970 Right. 399 00:19:15.009 --> 00:19:16.690 And so we haven't been caught in the middle of that, 400 00:19:16.730 --> 00:19:18.849 of course, always very important to have that on the 401 00:19:18.890 --> 00:19:20.450 ground experience. 402 00:19:20.019 --> 00:19:21.180 As to what actually happens. 403 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.039 Because again, to talk about this in the abstract, something 404 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:25.920 we all do in law school, for example, I went 405 00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:26.640 to law school twice. 406 00:19:26.859 --> 00:19:28.680 You're also a lawyer. It's great to talk about it, 407 00:19:28.700 --> 00:19:30.170 but what is happening to people on the ground? 408 00:19:30.190 --> 00:19:32.789 So I think Going back to our theme of team sports, that, 409 00:19:33.130 --> 00:19:35.490 you know, the going after individuals. 410 00:19:35.509 --> 00:19:37.799 Wait, wait. Did you say you went to law school twice? 411 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:41.900 I have two law degrees and a political science doctorate. 412 00:19:42.180 --> 00:19:44.380 I understood because I thought maybe after you finished one, 413 00:19:44.420 --> 00:19:44.940 you were bored. 414 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.309 You decided to do it a second time because it's 415 00:19:47.349 --> 00:19:48.890 that much fun. Right. 416 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:51.509 It is not fun yet. Full disclaimer. It is not fun. 417 00:19:51.890 --> 00:19:54.089 I love some types of school programs. I would say 418 00:19:54.130 --> 00:19:56.730 law school wasn't all that fun, but incredibly useful. No, 419 00:19:56.779 --> 00:19:58.430 I did once in the U.S. and one outside of 420 00:19:58.450 --> 00:20:01.480 the U.S. So having that global perspective is actually pretty fascinating. 421 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:01.740 Right. 422 00:20:02.180 --> 00:20:03.819 And so I think in terms of what you said, 423 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:05.599 you know, we tend to focus a lot. And again, 424 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:08.220 it's how the human brain takes in stories on individuals. 425 00:20:08.569 --> 00:20:10.009 It's what we see on the news, like you said, 426 00:20:10.029 --> 00:20:12.049 Secretary of Defense, of course, our Commander-in-Chief. 427 00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:14.119 This is what we're seeing. But really, we need to 428 00:20:14.150 --> 00:20:16.920 think about systems. Because what can happen is we can 429 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:20.119 have corruption in an individual, a very powerful individual, but 430 00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:23.339 at the same time, systems can still hold, right? 431 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.640 We can have fraud. We can have corruption while the 432 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:26.359 systems hold. 433 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.019 So what I'm watching for, what every American should be 434 00:20:29.059 --> 00:20:31.259 watching for, what people outside the US are watching for, 435 00:20:31.539 --> 00:20:33.839 are do the systems hold? For example, it's one thing 436 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.829 to have the vote happen. It's another thing to watch 437 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:37.480 the next day. 438 00:20:37.900 --> 00:20:38.579 Well, what happens? 439 00:20:38.660 --> 00:20:41.329 Who certifies it? You know, do people, do people try 440 00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:43.410 to say it didn't, it didn't really go that way. 441 00:20:43.490 --> 00:20:45.650 That's actually what we need to watch because of course, 442 00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:49.329 going after corrupt individuals is incredibly important, especially when those 443 00:20:49.349 --> 00:20:51.450 people hold enormous amounts of power. 444 00:20:51.829 --> 00:20:54.630 That being said, there's an entire system that holds all 445 00:20:54.650 --> 00:20:55.059 of us up. 446 00:20:55.579 --> 00:20:59.400 So I would personally love to see accountability and justice 447 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.059 and human rights come back to the forefront. And I 448 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.440 would love to see people that are misusing the system 449 00:21:04.539 --> 00:21:07.069 and corruption to be held to account. That's what our 450 00:21:07.109 --> 00:21:10.880 justice system requires. But it also requires that we look 451 00:21:10.910 --> 00:21:13.079 at holding up entire systems, which is why, as you 452 00:21:13.099 --> 00:21:16.539 keep saying, the checks and balances are so important. Because 453 00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:20.460 things like an executive order actually, to me, another radical take, 454 00:21:21.109 --> 00:21:23.130 Say that the system is failing a little bit because 455 00:21:23.190 --> 00:21:25.009 checks and balances are there for a reason. 456 00:21:25.130 --> 00:21:26.869 No one branch has all the power. 457 00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:29.789 So when you're not going to get approval for a war, 458 00:21:30.049 --> 00:21:32.390 when you're using an executive order, it's telling me that 459 00:21:32.410 --> 00:21:35.329 there's a problem and that there's been a failure, right? 460 00:21:35.369 --> 00:21:37.930 And so when we're misusing that power instead of going 461 00:21:37.970 --> 00:21:40.490 to the other branches or the other people all around us, 462 00:21:40.829 --> 00:21:43.849 it's a problem because another thing about America's greatness is 463 00:21:43.890 --> 00:21:48.920 we are filled with brilliant people. innovative, passionate people. And 464 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:51.619 so we need to require, and it's harder because the 465 00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:55.269 brain likes to talk

about individuals, this systematic approach to 466 00:21:55.329 --> 00:21:56.170 working as a team. 467 00:21:56.190 --> 00:21:59.490 So yes, corrupt individuals, absolutely. We have to call people 468 00:21:59.529 --> 00:21:59.910 to account. 469 00:21:59.990 --> 00:22:01.869 I could add a lot of people to that list. 470 00:22:01.990 --> 00:22:02.509 Well, Dr. 471 00:22:02.529 --> 00:22:05.710 Coleman, sadly, we have a lot of stupid freaking people 472 00:22:05.789 --> 00:22:08.789 in this country too. So I'm standing there with Caroline 473 00:22:08.890 --> 00:22:12.369 Schinkel yesterday, and this guy turns around and you know, 474 00:22:12.490 --> 00:22:15.640 sees me after one of the aides turns around and says, Oh, 475 00:22:15.630 --> 00:22:17.259 would you like to say hello to Michael Cohen? 476 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.880 So he turns around and goes, you're a traitor. So 477 00:22:19.940 --> 00:22:21.200 I said to him, do. 478 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.680 You mind if I engage you in a conversation? I 479 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:26.079 would have liked to engage him in the ass kicking, 480 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.380 but instead I decided I was going to, I was 481 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:32.960 going to appeal to his intellect. So I said, what 482 00:22:33.049 --> 00:22:36.329 makes me a traitor? And he goes, well, you flipped 483 00:22:36.430 --> 00:22:39.920 and you're back in Trump's camp. and I said, how 484 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:43.490 am I back in Trump's camp? I'm still a lifelong 485 00:22:43.549 --> 00:22:50.990 registered Democrat. I still believe everything that I have consistently said. 486 00:22:51.069 --> 00:22:56.279 I have not changed my position. Where I agree with Trump, 487 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.400 I will give him praise. Where I disagree, I will criticize. 488 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:04.930 Isn't that, as I said to him intellectual thinking? Isn't 489 00:23:04.970 --> 00:23:09.789 that intellectual honesty? Or am I a traitor because I'm 490 00:23:09.829 --> 00:23:14.170 not giving you that dopamine hit of hatred and rage 491 00:23:14.490 --> 00:23:18.769 and Trump derangement syndrome that you clearly need every single day? 492 00:23:19.170 --> 00:23:22.960 So I challenged him, name one position that I have 493 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:27.380 changed since you've been listening to me going back six, 494 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:28.460 seven years now. 495 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:31.549 And you know what? This guy could not. 496 00:23:31.890 --> 00:23:34.730 And he looked at me and he said, well, I'm 497 00:23:34.869 --> 00:23:37.289 sure I could, but I can't do it now because 498 00:23:37.349 --> 00:23:39.990 I'm heading home. So I said, well, try not to 499 00:23:40.089 --> 00:23:43.190 trip and, you know, smash your teeth, you know, into 500 00:23:43.210 --> 00:23:46.539 the concrete as you walk in home. Because, you know, 501 00:23:46.700 --> 00:23:50.420 chewing gum, obviously, and walking may not be your strong

suit. 502 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:52.079 And then the guy just left. 503 00:23:52.339 --> 00:23:56.180 But this is the intellectual dishonesty that we're dealing with 504 00:23:56.220 --> 00:23:56.680 these days. 505 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:03.150 I will say that I think what happens in our 506 00:24:03.230 --> 00:24:06.589 discourse is that people's minds immediately shut off when they 507 00:24:06.630 --> 00:24:12.450 feel they're not being respected. And people require respect in 508 00:24:12.589 --> 00:24:16.309 order to open up and have civil discourse. So regardless 509 00:24:16.569 --> 00:24:19.950 of thoughts about individual intellect, I think we need to 510 00:24:19.990 --> 00:24:21.839 be thinking a little broader. Who has access to go 511 00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:25.650 to school? How is education available in this country? If 512 00:24:25.750 --> 00:24:28.190 someone is afraid to lose a job that we think 513 00:24:28.250 --> 00:24:31.150 is outdated, how are we training them for a new job? 514 00:24:31.529 --> 00:24:33.750 People need to feel like people, and they need to 515 00:24:33.809 --> 00:24:37.750 feel dignified. And as Anthony Bourdain once said, most people 516 00:24:37.809 --> 00:24:40.190 just want to put on a clean shirt, go to work, 517 00:24:40.269 --> 00:24:41.130 and feed their family. 518 00:24:41.170 --> 00:24:42.599 And when they don't, they get afraid. 519 00:24:42.990 --> 00:24:45.799 So when you have this very brutal mix of survivors, 520 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.539 so ego, instinct, and then, of course, media, So speaking 521 00:24:49.579 --> 00:24:51.819 of algorithms, which is a bit of a specialty of mine, 522 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:55.720 algorithms and media also reward sensationalism. 523 00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:57.599 They reward the grotesque and the extreme. 524 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.789 So when we're talking about extremism, we need to take 525 00:25:01.089 --> 00:25:04.130 these tech companies to account. That is what they're pushing 526 00:25:04.299 --> 00:25:06.180 on all of us. And so we feel like to 527 00:25:06.220 --> 00:25:07.400 be heard, we need to shout. 528 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:08.700 We need to be extreme. 529 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:10.519 That's how we get a podcast. That's how we get 530 00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:14.680 on social media. But that's not what most Americans actually 531 00:25:14.740 --> 00:25:18.420 agree on a lot of these hotbed issues. But media 532 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:21.809 and all of that exacerbates it because people make money 533 00:25:21.940 --> 00:25:23.509 when our eyeballs are on the screen. 534 00:25:23.869 --> 00:25:25.529 Yes, I say that all the time. 535 00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:25.950 Right? 536 00:25:26.029 --> 00:25:26.890 And so we normalize that. 537 00:25:26.910 --> 00:25:28.529 And that's how people make money. And like you said, 538 00:25:28.549 --> 00:25:32.700 we're the biggest consumers. But the trick... is that the 539 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:35.779 most people making money are a very, very small group 540 00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:38.619 of people at the top. While the rest of us, right, 541 00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:40.500 most people are just trying to get through the day, 542 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:43.220 just trying to feed their families, maybe get an education. 543 00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.180 So we actually, and the reason that we have this 544 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:50.180 kind of, you know, very, very frustrated electorate is because 545 00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:52.990 of that. You know, people want to feed their families. 546 00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:54.329 They want to go to school. They want to have 547 00:25:54.369 --> 00:25:56.930 a good job. That's what they want. And so this 548 00:25:56.970 --> 00:26:01.170 sensationalism that's driving this extremism it's not only dangerous for us. 549 00:26:01.250 --> 00:26:02.970 That's one thing, you know, for you and I to 550 00:26:03.009 --> 00:26:06.210 go on the internet and see this. However, it's another 551 00:26:06.230 --> 00:26:09.109 thing for a 12 year old whose brain isn't fully framed, right? 552 00:26:09.170 --> 00:26:11.769 Then that's an entire generation. And we become completely, as 553 00:26:11.789 --> 00:26:14.509 you said, brainwashed. So I don't know if stupid is 554 00:26:14.549 --> 00:26:15.009 the word. 555 00:26:15.069 --> 00:26:15.289 You know? 556 00:26:15.329 --> 00:26:18.630 No, no, it's no, it's no, trust me. It's the word. Yeah. 557 00:26:18.650 --> 00:26:21.779 You know, as, as my grandma, as my grandma used 558 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.259 to always say, you can't teach stupid, right? Because they'll 559 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:27.319 never that, you know, they were stupid when they were 12, 560 00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:29.460 they're stupid when they're 21. 561 00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:32.000 It doesn't make a difference. But people are afraid. 562 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:32.579 They're afraid. 563 00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:33.319 Well, good. 564 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:37.210 And they should be because sometimes fear pushes you into 565 00:26:37.490 --> 00:26:40.490 being better, right? But I do want to, because you 566 00:26:40.529 --> 00:26:43.369 bring me yet again into another great segue, and this 567 00:26:43.450 --> 00:26:45.569 is about you and your work. 568 00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:49.089 I believe it's your book, A Human Algorithm. 569 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:52.779 So a human algorithm, and I suggest everybody take a 570 00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:55.640 quick look at it. I started skimming through it. It 571 00:26:55.700 --> 00:27:01.859 gets into something that I think Washington consistently misunderstands. I mean, 572 00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:05.140 Washington misunderstands a lot, but this is one thing here. 573 00:27:05.549 --> 00:27:11.029 It's the growing disconnect between ordinary Americans and the institutions 574 00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:17.650 supposedly representing them. And, you know, I

see that disconnect everywhere. 575 00:27:17.750 --> 00:27:21.829 Like my example on this idiot on the street. People, 576 00:27:22.210 --> 00:27:26.089 as you say, are exhausted by the political theater, the 577 00:27:26.130 --> 00:27:31.130 manufactured outrage, and the politicians who seem more interested in 578 00:27:31.190 --> 00:27:35.190 defeating the other side than actually accomplishing anything. 579 00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:40.940 But here, here, Dr. Flynn, Coleman, is the contradiction. I'm 580 00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:43.079 just going to call you Flynn. I like that name, Flynn. 581 00:27:43.099 --> 00:27:46.289 It's Thank you. Here's the contradiction. 582 00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:52.839 Americans say that they want stability, and yet they repeatedly 583 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:59.819 gravitate towards candidates who promise disruption. So what exactly are 584 00:27:59.930 --> 00:28:04.259 voters rebelling against? Is it the political establishment itself? Or 585 00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:09.500 have Americans just simply lost faith that either party has 586 00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:13.599 the ability or even the desire to solve the problems 587 00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:17.000 that are literally affecting our daily lives? 588 00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:21.140 That's a really important, interesting question. And the data does 589 00:28:21.259 --> 00:28:25.490 show that voters, as you said, are completely exhausted. However, 590 00:28:25.509 --> 00:28:28.720 that doesn't mean that they're apathetic. In fact, a lot 591 00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:31.119 of voters are very, very fired up. And what you 592 00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:33.470 said about stability and. 593 00:28:33.390 --> 00:28:34.769 Disruption is very interesting. 594 00:28:34.809 --> 00:28:37.009 And it goes back to me and my radical takes 595 00:28:37.069 --> 00:28:42.029 on switching the entire paradigm. Because I think the chaos, order, dichotomy, 596 00:28:42.130 --> 00:28:45.579 and frankly, many binaries in black and white thinking are 597 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.079 actually incredibly problematic because we lose. 598 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.400 The complexity and the nuance. 599 00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:52.319 And again, going back to algorithms that love a lack 600 00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:55.349 of nuance and they love a sensation as black and white, again, 601 00:28:55.849 --> 00:28:57.829 Another important thing that you'll probably agree with me on 602 00:28:57.869 --> 00:28:59.470 this is that we are beasts. 603 00:28:59.549 --> 00:29:02.650 We are animals. And it's very, very important to remember 604 00:29:02.690 --> 00:29:03.579 that we are animals. 605 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.059 Meaning, and a lot of people in behavioral science talk 606 00:29:06.099 --> 00:29:10.799 about this, we are based on instinct and very primal impulses, urges, 607 00:29:10.900 --> 00:29:11.319 and fears. 608 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:14.720 So that black and white, very tribalist thinking appeals to us.

609 00:29:14.819 --> 00:29:15.480 It's why we. 610 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:18.140 Love the gladiator arena and why we love sports. Our 611 00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:20.880 team wins, the other team loses. However, it can be very, 612 00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.079 very problematic for what it means to be a human 613 00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:25.160 being in society. And as I say in my book, 614 00:29:25.509 --> 00:29:27.390 we actually, most of our life is really in that 615 00:29:27.450 --> 00:29:30.400 gray area. You said it yourself. You said, hey, my 616 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:32.980 opinions are the same. It's the party switching all around me. 617 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:36.650 So this black and white thinking, this binary thinking, Republican, Democrat, 618 00:29:36.970 --> 00:29:39.970 deadlocked two-party system is very, very harsh on us. There 619 00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:42.259 are plenty of other countries that have problems of their own, 620 00:29:42.579 --> 00:29:44.819 but they have a third party, for example, in the mix, 621 00:29:44.859 --> 00:29:47.619 and they have an ability to say, hey, I didn't 622 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:49.980 really like what this politician was doing, so I'm going 623 00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.599 to switch it up and change things. 624 00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:54.650 Also, to get to stability... We. 625 00:29:54.589 --> 00:29:57.890 Need to have disruption of the current norms first. So 626 00:29:57.930 --> 00:30:00.099 it's not this black and white, oh, it's disruptive or 627 00:30:00.140 --> 00:30:03.240 revolution for all or stability. We actually sometimes need to 628 00:30:03.299 --> 00:30:05.180 reform or shake things up so we can get to 629 00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:07.559 a new normal and a new status quo. And you've 630 00:30:07.579 --> 00:30:10.160 seen this with all the civil rights fights, for example, 631 00:30:10.180 --> 00:30:12.130 in the US, the fight for the women to get 632 00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:15.269 the vote. There's so many examples. And sometimes we need 633 00:30:15.309 --> 00:30:17.670 to shake things up. And sometimes we need to protect 634 00:30:18.210 --> 00:30:20.589 traditions we hold dear. And I think it goes back 635 00:30:20.609 --> 00:30:23.029 to something you said really important at the beginning of this, 636 00:30:23.089 --> 00:30:25.109 which is that we tend to think how our parents 637 00:30:25.150 --> 00:30:27.650 thought or how our party thinks. And that type of 638 00:30:27.710 --> 00:30:30.650 thinking can really block us because it takes a lot. 639 00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:32.789 And the reason it's hard to change our mind about this, 640 00:30:32.890 --> 00:30:34.710 and people don't think about it this way, but if 641 00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:36.769 you change your politics, you're a perfect example. If you 642 00:30:36.789 --> 00:30:40.349 change your mind, you have to go against the opinion 643 00:30:40.369 --> 00:30:43.750 of your family, your friends, your party, your colleagues. And 644 00:30:43.769 --> 00:30:46.170 it's really, really difficult to do this. But if America 645 00:30:46.210 --> 00:30:49.650 is anything, it's the land of free thinking where we 646 00:30:49.670 --> 00:30:51.410 can be who we want to be. We certainly don't 647 00:30:51.430 --> 00:30:54.039 always live up to that. But as an aspirational goal 648 00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:56.059 to be able to use our human free will to 649 00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.240 build a better world, James Baldwin said it himself, you know, 650 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:01.180 the only thing that builds a better world is a 651 00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:03.000 small group of committed citizens. 652 00:31:03.099 --> 00:31:04.859 And we have that ability. Right. 653 00:31:04.900 --> 00:31:06.200 You know what Alec Baldwin said? 654 00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:11.759 Anyway, I want to finish. 655 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.400 By asking you one last sort of question here. 656 00:31:14.450 --> 00:31:14.789 Sure. 657 00:31:15.089 --> 00:31:18.529 I want to shift gears with it, where there's something 658 00:31:18.589 --> 00:31:25.950 that I see happening that I think Washington is dangerously 659 00:31:26.089 --> 00:31:30.630 unprepared for. And like one of the arguments I had 660 00:31:30.670 --> 00:31:35.660 with this moron yesterday in the street that felt compelled 661 00:31:35.980 --> 00:31:41.319 to come over and start to attack me Artificial intelligence. Now, 662 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:46.200 artificial intelligence, the way I see it, is advancing at 663 00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:52.670 this break. I mean, just this breathtaking pace. Technology companies. 664 00:31:53.410 --> 00:31:58.109 are literally accumulating extraordinary amounts of influence. The data centers 665 00:31:58.190 --> 00:32:03.430 are transforming communities. Corporations are making decisions that will affect 666 00:32:03.809 --> 00:32:07.430 millions of Americans before Congress even gets a chance to 667 00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:11.819 understand what the hell is happening. Now, you yourself have 668 00:32:11.900 --> 00:32:17.299 raised concerns about the collision between technology, corporate power, and 669 00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:19.140 democratic accountability. 670 00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:23.710 So here's my question to you. Who's actually in control here? 671 00:32:24.509 --> 00:32:30.390 Is Congress capable of establishing meaningful guardrails without strangling innovation? 672 00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:32.880 Or do you think that we are approaching a point 673 00:32:33.259 --> 00:32:39.420 where private technology companies are wielding more practical influence over 674 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:44.079 American life than the elected government itself? And if that's 675 00:32:44.140 --> 00:32:48.509 where that we're headed, what happens to democratic accountability? 676 00:32:49.430 --> 00:32:51.559 A great question, and of course, you walked right into 677 00:32:51.579 --> 00:32:54.519 my wheelhouse

here, and you can imagine how strange it is. 678 00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:56.960 Like I said, I read Human Algorithm. 679 00:32:57.279 --> 00:32:59.480 Right, you can imagine how strange it is that I 680 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:01.740 wrote this book almost a decade ago, and that I've 681 00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.089 been talking about the intersection of AI, human rights, democracy, 682 00:33:05.250 --> 00:33:08.609 long before we had generative AI like ChachiBT. I would 683 00:33:08.650 --> 00:33:11.049 literally have people at my own book events say, AI 684 00:33:11.130 --> 00:33:13.049 is an engineering problem. This has nothing to do with 685 00:33:13.089 --> 00:33:14.130 human rights and democracy. 686 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:16.059 Now here we are, right? 687 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.299 And it's a complete flip and I'm going, I was 688 00:33:18.339 --> 00:33:20.920 saying this 10 years ago. So there is a deep 689 00:33:20.980 --> 00:33:24.069 intersection and part of it is exactly as I said 690 00:33:24.089 --> 00:33:25.730 in my book that, you know, it's a reason, I mean, 691 00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:31.210 I'm a political scientist myself talking economics, politics, technology, technocrats, 692 00:33:31.230 --> 00:33:34.250 you know, the oligarchy, it's all connected because for me, 693 00:33:34.309 --> 00:33:36.170 the reason I've been able to predict a lot of 694 00:33:36.210 --> 00:33:38.910 these things around AI and me and other people working 695 00:33:38.930 --> 00:33:41.009 in these realms of human rights and AI is it's 696 00:33:41.150 --> 00:33:45.529 all about power. Technology is a tool. We've had technology 697 00:33:45.609 --> 00:33:49.349 since the beginning of human history. Celestial navigation is technology. 698 00:33:49.490 --> 00:33:53.650 Fire is technology. Irrigation is technology. We have been developing 699 00:33:53.710 --> 00:33:56.990 alongside our tools. The difference is the speed and the 700 00:33:57.099 --> 00:34:00.200 scale and the amount, as you said, of power and influence. 701 00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:03.000 At the beginning, when you had Facebook that was in 702 00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:07.609 charge of 2 billion users, That means that is Zuckerberg 703 00:34:07.650 --> 00:34:09.630 in charge of democracy, whether he knows it or likes 704 00:34:09.690 --> 00:34:12.230 it or not, right? The communication channels are changing, which 705 00:34:12.269 --> 00:34:14.309 is why I talk about things like a universal basic 706 00:34:14.369 --> 00:34:17.829 income in my book, why I talk about politics and economics. 707 00:34:17.929 --> 00:34:22.030 It's all about levers of power because the innovation is great, 708 00:34:22.090 --> 00:34:25.949 but it's another myth that innovation only happens by private companies. 709 00:34:26.090 --> 00:34:29.360 A lot of our best innovations actually come from public 710 00:34:29.619 --> 00:34:33.750 private partnerships, things like GPS, There's all types of examples. 711 00:34:34.030 --> 00:34:36.949 The other thing about the advent of AI is that 712 00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:40.199 the speed and the scale is happening so fast that, 713 00:34:40.300 --> 00:34:43.239 like you said, people in politics, there was that infamous 714 00:34:43.940 --> 00:34:47.960 Senate in 2012 where the people in politics had no 715 00:34:48.139 --> 00:34:50.239 idea even how Facebook ads worked. 716 00:34:50.300 --> 00:34:52.380 And we were only at the beginning stages, right? 717 00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:55.510 It's happening so fast and we have power concentrating in 718 00:34:55.550 --> 00:34:59.050 the hands of of such a small cadre of people 719 00:34:59.409 --> 00:35:01.380 that it is completely running away with us. But we 720 00:35:01.420 --> 00:35:04.480 do not lack for ideas. We lack for the funding, 721 00:35:04.619 --> 00:35:08.980 the ecosystem to support all. It's actually very anti-American and 722 00:35:09.059 --> 00:35:12.699 very anti-capitalist to say only certain people can be in 723 00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:13.699 the technology game. 724 00:35:14.019 --> 00:35:15.280 We need more innovation. 725 00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:17.329 We need more funding because a lot of people have 726 00:35:17.369 --> 00:35:20.269 brilliant ideas. So it is a deep, deep threat to democracy. 727 00:35:20.329 --> 00:35:23.489 We already saw it way back with Cambridge Analytica, for example, 728 00:35:23.769 --> 00:35:26.449 people not understanding. Because the thing about algorithms is they 729 00:35:26.510 --> 00:35:29.300 hide behind these black boxes. So when you're going, oh, 730 00:35:29.340 --> 00:35:32.780 that's so interesting. This ad showed me this pair of shoes. 731 00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:34.500 I think I want to buy that. You have to 732 00:35:34.539 --> 00:35:38.010 remember an algorithm convinced you to buy those. In some ways, 733 00:35:38.050 --> 00:35:40.530 they know us better than we know ourselves, right? What 734 00:35:40.610 --> 00:35:44.190 movies to watch, our financial transactions, who we see online. 735 00:35:44.489 --> 00:35:47.940 It's this incredibly insidious force, and it's actually taking away 736 00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:51.059 our individuality. So this is something that is deeply important, 737 00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.400 and it's not just software. Data centers, you will find 738 00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:57.619 very interesting, are one of kind of these first bipartisan 739 00:35:57.739 --> 00:35:58.360 AI issues. 740 00:35:58.909 --> 00:36:00.769 Everyone wants data centers out of their backyard. 741 00:36:00.849 --> 00:36:03.989 It's not just software, it's actual infrastructure that's going to 742 00:36:04.010 --> 00:36:06.409 consume something like 12% of our energy grid by 2030. 743 00:36:06.389 --> 00:36:12.900 Yeah, it's, again, AI, it's so desperately needed, but it's 744 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:20.579 also so incredibly dangerous. My concern is the military aspect 745 00:36:20.659 --> 00:36:25.199 for

AI, the part where China is continuing. So even 746 00:36:25.260 --> 00:36:29.039 if we throw up the guardrails at this point, China, 747 00:36:29.179 --> 00:36:35.460 of course, will continue. So will places like North Korea, Russia, Iran. 748 00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:38.500 They will continue to do it. And God forbid that 749 00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:42.260 they get that tenth or that millisecond ahead of us, 750 00:36:42.650 --> 00:36:47.409 their AI can shut down our grids, can basically cripple 751 00:36:47.570 --> 00:36:53.820 our entire economy. technological infrastructure without having the ability to 752 00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:57.840 fight back because then they will always be that millisecond 753 00:36:57.980 --> 00:37:01.579 ahead of us. So it's not even though if government 754 00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:06.199 wants to turn around and say to Silicon Valley, okay, 755 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:08.679 that's it, we're slamming on the guardrails. 756 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:10.420 No, you're not. 757 00:37:10.820 --> 00:37:14.019 You may slam on the guardrails for one of the 758 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:17.400 companies here in America, but you have no effect upon 759 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:18.960 what's going to go on worldwide. 760 00:37:19.550 --> 00:37:22.150 Well, I'm coming in hot with another radical take because 761 00:37:22.190 --> 00:37:23.980 there's another way to think about this. So when we 762 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.480 think of everything as an arms race, we get very, 763 00:37:26.659 --> 00:37:29.119 which is why war, which happens to be my specialty 764 00:37:29.179 --> 00:37:31.369 at the intersection of war and AI as well, war 765 00:37:31.409 --> 00:37:33.130 crimes and things like that. So when we think with 766 00:37:33.170 --> 00:37:37.039 that war like mentality. literally for survival mechanism, we get 767 00:37:37.099 --> 00:37:39.429 very myopic in our thinking, right? And we get very 768 00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:41.829 fear and survival based in our thinking. So what I 769 00:37:41.849 --> 00:37:44.610 want to say about that is yes, of course. So ironically, 770 00:37:44.670 --> 00:37:48.789 somewhere like China with an authoritarian system can mobilize everything really, 771 00:37:48.829 --> 00:37:51.449 really fast because you don't need the will of the people. 772 00:37:51.769 --> 00:37:54.070 which is the very, very foundation of our democracy, right? 773 00:37:54.090 --> 00:37:55.769 So they can also do things like, oh, you want 774 00:37:55.789 --> 00:37:56.909 to end pollution in Beijing? 775 00:37:57.050 --> 00:37:59.070 No problem. So it's this very interesting thing. 776 00:37:59.449 --> 00:38:02.460 However, we also have to be thinking about if we 777 00:38:02.539 --> 00:38:05.559 want to be ahead in that arms race for AI, 778 00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.559 here's what we need. We need the best scientists in 779 00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:11.260 the world on our side. We need the best innovators, 780 00:38:11.340

--> 00:38:14.570 which means immigration, which means we need people coming to 781 00:38:14.610 --> 00:38:17.030 our schools and staying to work. And we need the 782 00:38:17.070 --> 00:38:21.469 best scientists, which ironically requires that teamwork that I was 783 00:38:21.550 --> 00:38:24.150 talking about. We need scientists from all over the world 784 00:38:24.210 --> 00:38:25.889 to come to us and say, we want to be here. 785 00:38:26.150 --> 00:38:27.630 We want to innovate here. We want to work at 786 00:38:27.650 --> 00:38:30.610 your companies. So again, it's not so binary as you think. 787 00:38:30.659 --> 00:38:33.139 We actually have to open up our thinking and work 788 00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:35.219 with people that we might not have thought because also 789 00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:37.179 a government is different from its people. 790 00:38:37.539 --> 00:38:39.719 A government is not its scientists. And if we want 791 00:38:39.739 --> 00:38:40.280 to be the. 792 00:38:40.219 --> 00:38:42.849 Best- Well, in all fairness, I'm going to give you 793 00:38:42.869 --> 00:38:45.949 a little pushback on that one because the way I 794 00:38:46.010 --> 00:38:50.719 see it these days, AI is actually teaching AI. It's 795 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:54.719 almost now out of the hands of people like you 796 00:38:54.940 --> 00:38:57.760 or I. It's out of the hands of the scientists. 797 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:02.219 AI is actually doing it on its own. That, to me, 798 00:39:02.570 --> 00:39:06.010 is the scarier part. That, to me, is reminiscent of 799 00:39:06.050 --> 00:39:07.369 the movie iRobot. 800 00:39:08.289 --> 00:39:11.050 Well, it's actually always been that way. So there's a 801 00:39:11.070 --> 00:39:12.059 couple things to distinguish. 802 00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:13.840 So an algorithm in and of itself is just a 803 00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:16.619 recipe that tells a computer what to do. Since Alan 804 00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:19.659 Turing's time, World War, we've been talking about these issues. 805 00:39:19.699 --> 00:39:21.699 We just didn't have the actual tools to do it. 806 00:39:22.139 --> 00:39:25.929 AI by design, in theory, is smarter than even its 807 00:39:25.969 --> 00:39:28.610 developers are or could ever be. So there's always been 808 00:39:28.650 --> 00:39:31.699 this issue of, oh, well, I trained AI, trained it 809 00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:34.179 to do something, and it's going beyond what I thought 810 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:36.219 it would do. That's kind of the idea of training 811 00:39:36.260 --> 00:39:39.449 something that's intelligent. And that's why it's so existential for us. 812 00:39:39.530 --> 00:39:41.769 Because humans, we love to be, speaking of food chains, 813 00:39:41.809 --> 00:39:43.309 we love to be at the top of the food chain. 814 00:39:43.809 --> 00:39:46.519 That being said, it's still an issue of power. If 815 00:39:46.579 --> 00:39:50.219 you have someone, it's just like leadership and politics. Nothing 816 00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:53.199 is perfect, but if you have people you trust building 817 00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:56.780 these tools and a whole big table of lived experiences, 818 00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:00.989 checks and balances, ethical guardrails while we wait for better ideas, 819 00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:03.929 then you're going to trust that this technology is going 820 00:40:03.949 --> 00:40:06.769 to be working for us. It's just like the internet. People, 821 00:40:06.889 --> 00:40:09.889 you know, internet didn't have to be like this. AI 822 00:40:09.949 --> 00:40:12.449 can be something different. It's all about the people and 823 00:40:12.489 --> 00:40:15.480 the tools behind it. That's why it's all about power 824 00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:18.550 and it all goes back to leadership. Because we can 825 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:22.389 build these things better. That being said, back to guardrails, 826 00:40:22.670 --> 00:40:25.429 until we do. So CRISPR is a famous example of 827 00:40:25.469 --> 00:40:28.389 Jennifer Doudna, who invented CRISPR, which is going to be 828 00:40:28.429 --> 00:40:31.690 kind of the biggest world changing biotechnology. She herself said, 829 00:40:32.010 --> 00:40:35.110 until we figure this out, I want ethical guardrails. Laws, 830 00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:37.869 as you know best, laws and ethical guardrails are not perfect. 831 00:40:38.269 --> 00:40:40.949 But there are ways to slow things down enough for 832 00:40:41.070 --> 00:40:43.989 us to get everything together to have a better solution. 833 00:40:44.289 --> 00:40:44.989 The thing about. 834 00:40:44.869 --> 00:40:47.309 Politics and all this stuff is, you know, just because 835 00:40:47.409 --> 00:40:49.230 don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. 836 00:40:49.590 --> 00:40:51.650 We need to make sure that we are protecting people 837 00:40:51.989 --> 00:40:53.449 while we figure this stuff out. 838 00:40:54.170 --> 00:40:55.409 Well, Dr. 839 00:40:55.449 --> 00:40:59.219 Flynn Coleman, thank you so much. Appreciate you. Where can 840 00:40:59.260 --> 00:41:01.480 people get your book? Where can people do a little 841 00:41:01.539 --> 00:41:05.880 more digging on who you are and what you're representing 842 00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:06.360 these days? 843 00:41:06.829 --> 00:41:09.380 Speaking of algorithms and the internet, yes, my book is 844 00:41:09.389 --> 00:41:13.480 The Human Algorithm. You can find me online, socials, my name, 845 00:41:13.539 --> 00:41:16.059 Flynn Coleman, my website. It's all there for you. I 846 00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.159 look forward to hearing from you. And it was great 847 00:41:18.179 --> 00:41:19.539 to be on and have this discussion. 848 00:41:20.019 --> 00:41:22.190 With that, I thank you so much for joining us 849 00:41:22.289 --> 00:41:23.909 on When You Know You Know Unleashed. 850 00:41:24.690 --> 00:41:26.449 Let's see whose predictions come right.