The Sodder Children | They Vanished in a Fire But No Bodies Were Ever Found의 전체 녹취록

on the couch. She 69 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:35.600 told her to get Sylvia from the bedroom and go 70 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:39.079 out the front door and wait. Jeannie pushed past her 71 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:41.360 and shouted up the stairs for the rest of the children. 72 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:44.480 By now George was awake and struggling to get into 73 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.319 his clothes. He ran outside to the water barrel that 74 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:51.160 stood near the house. John and George Junior, the two 75 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:53.800 oldest Solder boys at home, appeared at the top of 76 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:57.000 the stairs and ran down them. The fire was roaring 77 00:04:57.160 --> 00:04:59.720 along the wall, and both of them received minor burns 78 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:02.720 as they fled from the flames. John had shouted for 79 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:05.480 his younger siblings or he had gone into the bedrooms 80 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:07.720 to awaken them, according to one of his statements to 81 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:11.399 the police, and thought he heard them respond. The boys 82 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:15.680 fled outside, where Marian, Sylvia, George, and Jeannie were shivering 83 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:18.800 in the cold. Realizing that the rest of the children 84 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:22.360 were still inside, George tried desperately to get them out 85 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:24.480 of the house, but the front of the house and 86 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.600 the staircase were now engulfed in flames. The water barrel 87 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:31.120 had been frozen solid, so George used it as a 88 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:33.600 step to try and climb up the side of the house. 89 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:37.600 He quickly fell so he smashed a window, badly, slicing 90 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:39.959 his hand and arm, but the fire was too hot, 91 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:44.240 preventing him from getting inside. George called frantically toward the 92 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:47.160 upper floor of the house, pleading with his children to 93 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:50.399 come to the window. He then remembered the ladder that 94 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:52.480 he kept at the side of the house and ran 95 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:56.399 to where it should have been it was gone. Panicked, 96 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.160 he came up with another idea. He would drive one 97 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.199 of his trucks up to the house and then climb 98 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:03.120 on top of the cab so that he could reach 99 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:06.399 the upper windows. He ran to the nearest truck climbed 100 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:10.040 into the cab and cranked the engine. It wouldn't start. 101 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:12.879 He jumped down and ran to his other truck. He 102 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:15.439 tried to start this one too, but the motor wouldn't 103 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.199 turn over. Both trucks had worked perfectly the day before. 104 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:23.040 While George was struggling with the trucks, Maryan had handed 105 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:25.199 Sylvia to her mother and had run to a neighbor's 106 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:28.160 house to call the fire department. She pounded on the 107 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.160 door until a light appeared in the window. She quickly 108 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:34.800 explained what was happening and begged to use the telephone. 109 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.279 Marian clicked the receiver, but no operator answered to put 110 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:41.360 the call through. It was a shared party line and 111 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:43.959 no one was on duty. During the early morning hours 112 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:48.399 of Christmas Day, around one am, another neighbor spotted the 113 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:51.000 fire and ran to a local tavern to call for help, 114 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:54.040 but he was also unable to get an operator on 115 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:57.399 the line, so he drove two miles into Fayetteville, West 116 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:01.399 Virginia to wake up the fire chief FJ. Morris, and 117 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:05.360 then came the next delay. Morris had to find firefighters 118 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:07.480 to help with the blaze because he was unable to 119 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:10.759 drive the fire truck at the Solder home. The fire 120 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:14.480 continued to burn unchecked while the family and a scattering 121 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:18.160 of friends and neighbors crowded around. Later, everyone who was 122 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:21.079 there that morning agreed that they never saw a child's 123 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:23.920 face in an upstairs window and never heard a cry 124 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:28.759 for help. The house burned, The onlookers saw the light 125 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:31.360 in the house go out, and saw the Christmas lights 126 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.519 in the window flicker and then go dark. It took 127 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:37.079 only thirty minutes for the Solder House to be turned 128 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:41.920 into a pile of smoldering brick and wood. One of 129 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:45.040 the most haunting mysteries to ever occur in West Virginia 130 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:49.079 and perhaps even in America, began during the pre dawn 131 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:53.160 hours of December twenty fifth, nineteen forty five. The fire 132 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:55.519 that occurred at the Solder home that night was the 133 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:58.600 key to the mystery, but whether it was a vanishing, 134 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:02.519 a kidnapping, or a mass murder has never been determined. 135 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.839 What is known is that five children of George and 136 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:09.639 Jeanie Sowter were apparently lost in a mysterious fire that 137 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:14.560 destroyed their

home, but how were they lost. Their bodies 138 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:17.000 were never found in the ruins, and the children were 139 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:21.800 later spotted in various places, creating a puzzling complex real 140 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:25.160 life mystery that is more baffling than anything that could 141 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:29.279 be found in fiction. What happened to the Solder children? 142 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:32.799 Did they die in the fire? Or were they kidnapped 143 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:36.559 for unknown reasons? And if they were, why has no 144 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:40.879 trace of them ever been found. It was the holiday 145 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.840 season in the West Virginia countryside near Fayetteville. A light 146 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:47.360 snow was on the ground, and all seemed right with 147 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:50.840 the world. George Sowter, Senior and his wife, Jeanie were 148 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.440 the proud parents of ten children and lived in a 149 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:57.480 new home outside of town. George, a fifty year old 150 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:01.360 Italian immigrant, had recently started the Dempsey Transfer Company, a 151 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:03.600 new coal trucking firm that he ran from an office 152 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.279 in his home. It was already prospering. He owned two 153 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:09.480 trucks and two of his sons were working for him. 154 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:13.240 Another sold son, Joe, was in the army, but because 155 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:15.919 World War II had ended several months earlier, he was 156 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:18.720 out of danger. The rest of the children were at 157 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:22.200 home with their parents, celebrating the season with gifts, food, 158 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:26.080 and family. Life was good for the Sowers, and the 159 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.960 new year promised to be even better. The Solder children 160 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.759 opened their presence on Christmas Eve, including toys that had 161 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:36.039 been purchased by Marian from her job at the dime 162 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:39.559 store in Fayetteville. George went to bed early that night, 163 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.080 and so did the older boys, John twenty three and 164 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:46.120 George Junior sixteen, who worked for their father in the 165 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:51.799 coal hauling business. The other children, Maurice fourteen, Martha twelve, 166 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:56.519 Lewis ten, Jenny eight, and Betty six, all said they 167 00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:59.440 were too excited to sleep, but finally went to bed 168 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:03.039 around ten pm. The upper floor of the Sawder house 169 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:06.200 was divided into two large rooms, with one for the 170 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:09.679 boys and the other for the girls. Jeanie went to 171 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.559 bed soon after the children did, taking two year old 172 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:15.879 Sylvia into the bedroom she shared with her husband. She 173 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:18.519 was looking forward to a good night's sleep before the 174 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:22.440 holiday festivities of the next day. But Jeanie didn't get 175 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.039 a good night's sleep, not that night or for any 176 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:29.759 night for the rest of her life. Jeannie was roused 177 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:33.639 from her sleep three times that night by the ringing telephone, 178 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.519 the unusual sound on the roof, and finally by the fire. 179 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:41.039 In the confusion, half of the family made it out 180 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:44.320 of the house, but five of the children sleeping upstairs 181 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:49.080 never came out. George tried to get into the burning house, 182 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:52.759 but the stairs were engulfed in flames. He searched for 183 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:55.399 the ladder to reach the upper floor, but it had vanished. 184 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.840 The Saunters later found it seventy five feet from the 185 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:02.960 house and thrown down an embankment. The coal trucks, each 186 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:06.799 of which had run perfectly on Christmas Eve, refused to start. 187 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:11.399 Attempts to call the fire department failed, but eventually Fayetteville 188 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:15.039 Fire Chief F. J. Morris was reached, but even after that, 189 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.120 the fire department did not arrive until eight a m. 190 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:23.080 Seven hours after the blaze began. The lapse was explained 191 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.200 by the department's lack of manpower during the war and 192 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:30.559 by the chief's inability to drive Fayetteville's fire truck. Morris 193 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:33.080 had to wait until he could track down a qualified driver, 194 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:36.519 and Fayetteville didn't have a fire alarm in nineteen forty five, 195 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:39.960 so they had to rely on a phone tree. An 196 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:44.240 operator would call one firefighter, then another, and another, but 197 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:48.080 with no operators seemingly on duty, the calls took hours 198 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:51.559 to complete. By the time the firefighters arrived, the Solder 199 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:54.759 home had been reduced to a crumble of ruins over 200 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:59.240 a smoking, ash filled basement. There was little the firefighters 201 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.759 could do other than hose down the few smoldering embers 202 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:05.759 that remained in the debris of the house. A brief 203 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:08.080 search of the ruins ended at ten a m. On

204 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:11.240 Christmas Day, with Chief Morris telling the Sowters that no 205 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:14.919 trace of the children could be found. He suggested that 206 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:18.080 the fire was hot enough to completely cremate their remains, 207 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.440 and he suggested that they keep some of the ashes 208 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.039 to create a memorial for the lost children. The fire 209 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:27.120 department and the police authorities left, saying that they would 210 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:31.440 return for a more thorough investigation of the site. Jeanie, 211 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.080 Marian and Sylvia, who had stayed with Jeanie's sister, returned 212 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:37.799 home and the family set up a makeshift apartment in 213 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:41.000 an outbuilding on the farm. The Red Cross and members 214 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:44.039 of the local Board of Education visited them, offering food 215 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:49.120 and any assistance the Sowters needed. Meanwhile, the official investigation 216 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:52.600 was continuing. A quick coroner's inquest was held, and the 217 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:55.480 six man jury took a little time to decide that 218 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:58.960 the fire was caused by faulty wiring. A report from 219 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:03.200 the state police agreed. How Trooper F. E. Springer, who 220 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:06.440 wrote the report, came to this conclusion is unknown. He 221 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.080 also stated that it was his belief that the fall 222 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.720 of the house's two chimneys would have had enough heat 223 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:15.440 and weight to destroy any corpses inside, the first of 224 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:19.200 many explanations of why no human remains were found after 225 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:23.360 the fire. There would also be rumors spread that George 226 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.879 had stored significant quantities of oil and gasoline in the basement, 227 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:31.159 something that George would always deny. Even if he had, 228 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.559 it would not explain the missing bodies. What we know 229 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:37.919 today that was not known in nineteen forty five is 230 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:40.600 that the fire, which leveled the Solder home in about 231 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.039 half an hour, never reached the temperature required for the 232 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:47.679 total cremation of human remains. That would have taken two 233 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:50.440 to three hours and would have required a temperature of 234 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:54.960 fourteen hundred to eighteen hundred degrees. In fact, various household 235 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.480 appliances found in the burned out basement were still recognizable, 236 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:03.600 but George and Gene didn't have that information. They were heartbroken, 237 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:06.879 believing the jury's verdict that their five children had died 238 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:10.399 in the fire. George could not stand to look out 239 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:12.759 the window of the outbuilding where they were living and 240 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:15.200 see the hole where his house used to be and 241 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.840 where he believed the ashes of his children remained. On 242 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.120 December twenty ninth, he obtained a bulldozer and covered the 243 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.639 basement with five feet of dirt, explaining that he planned 244 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:28.840 to plant flowers and preserve the site as a memorial 245 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:33.039 to the children. On December thirtieth, death certificates were issued 246 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:36.279 for the five children. As far as the authorities were concerned, 247 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:40.759 the case was now officially closed. But was it really? 248 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:45.320 That's the real question here, because there were many strange 249 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:48.759 things happening to the Solder family before and after the 250 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:53.840 fire that make even the most skeptical among us take notice. 251 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:56.919 There was something very unusual at work in their lives. 252 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.320 But what it may have been, no one can or 253 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:12.879 is willing to say. More of our story the Christmas 254 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:36.519 disappearance of the Solder children when we'd Darkness returns. The 255 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.519 weird events began in late nineteen forty five. Jeanie and 256 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:43.080 some of the children had noticed a strange man parked 257 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.720 on the road near the house each day around the 258 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:48.799 time that the children returned home from school. He did 259 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:51.279 not get out of his car or approach the children 260 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:54.360 in any way. He simply sat and watched the younger 261 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:58.759 children walking home. Jeannie grew concerned, but before she could 262 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:03.279 confront him, he was gone and didn't return. Another day, 263 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:06.519 a man approached George in the yard, asking about possible 264 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:10.639 work around the farm or with George's trucking company. George 265 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:12.960 didn't have anything to offer the man, but as the 266 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.720 stranger was turning to leave, he pointed out a new 267 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.759 exterior fuse box that had been recently upgraded for an 268 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.320 electric oven the family had installed. He warned George that 269 00:16:22.360 -->

00:16:26.919 the new fusebox could cause a fire someday. In October 270 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:30.679 nineteen forty five, George turned down an insurance policy that 271 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.480 had been offered to him by a local salesman. The 272 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:36.159 man flew into a rage and warned him that his 273 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:38.960 house would go up in smoke and his children would 274 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.159 be destroyed over dirty remarks that George had made about 275 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:46.519 Benito Mussolini, Italy's fascist dictator, who'd been lynched in April 276 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:51.799 nineteen forty five. Interestingly, the same insurance salesman was a 277 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.559 member of the coroner's jury that decided the fire at 278 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:59.240 the Sodder house was accidental. A newspaper report also stated 279 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.879 that just before or the holiday season, a woman and 280 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.400 three men had shown up at the Solder house and 281 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.400 asked Genie if they could see their babies. The newspaper 282 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.839 didn't make a note of Genie's reaction, but I'm willing 283 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:14.119 to guess that she closed the door in their face. Then, 284 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.279 on the night of the fire, while the house was 285 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.640 still burning, a man was spotted breaking into the Solter's 286 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:23.599 garage and stealing an auto block and tackle. The man, 287 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:27.759 identified in the newspaper as Johnson, was later tracked down 288 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.720 and arrested. Strangely, he was never investigated as to any 289 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:35.640 involvement with the fire itself. When a telephone repair man 290 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:38.319 came to the Solder home site to install service to 291 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:41.079 the outbuilding where the family was living, he told them 292 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.119 that the telephone line that had been running to the 293 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.240 house had not been burned through, but rather had been 294 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.640 cut fourteen feet off the ground and two feet from 295 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.039 the nearest utility pole. This means that it had been 296 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:55.839 cut between the time of the Laughing Ladies call on 297 00:17:55.960 --> 00:18:00.480 Christmas Eve and the fire. Itself. Later, Johnson, the block 298 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.920 and tackle thief, admitted to cutting the telephone wire, allegedly 299 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.880 mistaking it for the power line. He would have needed 300 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:09.200 a ladder to get to where the line was cut, 301 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:12.079 which might explain why the Sauders ladder was not found 302 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:14.839 in its usual spot next to the house. But why 303 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.599 would he cut the electrical line into the house so 304 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:21.559 that he could steal tools from the garage. It's possible 305 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:23.720 that he had other reasons for wanting the house to 306 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:27.119 be without lights. What Johnson was really doing that night 307 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:30.240 was just another of the unanswered questions in the case. 308 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.960 There turned out to be a lot more. The inquest 309 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:37.240 verdict that the fire had started because of a blown 310 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.440 electric box made George and Genie question the things they 311 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.880 had seen on Christmas morning. Based on the jury's findings, 312 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.759 the electricity in the house should have gone out immediately, 313 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:49.839 but the Sauders, as well as their neighbors, remember the 314 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:52.880 lights being on while the house was burning. They had 315 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:56.000 seen the Christmas lights in the window go out long 316 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:00.319 after the blaze started. They were doubting the official version 317 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.720 of events, but before they could go to the authorities, 318 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:06.279 they decided to do some investigating on their own. Genie 319 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:08.839 put chicken and pig bones and a metal container and 320 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.799 set them on fire. After burning for a few minutes, 321 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.839 the fire went out, leaving scorched but intact bones behind. 322 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:19.720 She also read a newspaper article about a nearby house fire. 323 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.799 The house had also burned completely to the ground. Seven 324 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:26.960 people had been trapped inside, and after the fire, all 325 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:31.920 seven bodies were easily identifiable. The Sowters also learned about 326 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:35.559 the late night bus driver who reported seeing unknown persons 327 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.680 throwing balls of fire onto the roof of their house. 328 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:43.200 In March nineteen forty six, Sylvia Solter found a green, 329 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:47.119 hard rubber object near the ruins, which some believed was 330 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.680 some sort of firebomb. The Sowters later claimed that the 331 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:54.759 house had burned from the roof downward, rather than from 332 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:58.160 the ground floor up, but no evidence remained to prove 333 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.559 their story. However, the idea of fire bombs being thrown 334 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:05.079 onto the roof might explain the strange noise that Jeanie 335 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.279 heard

when she was awakened a short time before the 336 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:11.920 fire started. George and Jeanie had now started to believe 337 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.119 that the children had somehow been removed from their house 338 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:19.839 before the fire but how if the children had seen 339 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:23.319 a stranger, surely they would have called out. How could 340 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.680 kidnappers have not disturbed John and George Junior, who shared 341 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.519 a room with two of the missing children, And how 342 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:31.839 could strangers have gotten the children out of the house 343 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:36.839 without anyone noticing. Despite these questions, they took their suspicions 344 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.640 to the authorities, who had no interest in reopening the case. 345 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:43.759 The Sotters were told that they needed to accept the 346 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.000 jury findings of death by accident. It was a tragedy, 347 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.400 they were told, but their children were dead and they 348 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.759 needed to find a way to move on. But George 349 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.359 and Jeanie refused to go along with the official conclusions. 350 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.440 They hired two private detectives, C. C. Tinsley and Georgie Swain, 351 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.480 and began using their own money to pursue an investigation. 352 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:06.920 The two men went to work not only trying to 353 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:10.000 run down information about the children, but also looking to 354 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.039 see who might have had hard feelings against the solders 355 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:16.000 and if any possible enemies might have had something to 356 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:19.519 do with the fire or with kidnapping the children. Things 357 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:24.880 would soon become even more confusing and convoluted, and then 358 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:29.559 the sightings began. First, the manager of a motel that 359 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:34.000 was located halfway between Fayetteville and Charleston, West Virginia, claimed 360 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:37.519 that he saw the five Solder children there on Christmas Day. 361 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:41.160 A resident of Charleston later said that he saw four 362 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:44.359 of the children, Martha, Lewis, Jenny, and Betty, with four 363 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:48.440 unknown adults about one week after the fire. The adults 364 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.400 spoke Italian and were never identified, and there would be 365 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:55.759 more to come. In nineteen forty seven, a church minister 366 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.839 from Fayetteville named James f. Frame told the Solters estranged. 367 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.599 While fire Chief Morris had stated that no remains were 368 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:06.160 found at the fire scene, in nineteen forty five, he 369 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:09.319 privately claimed to have found a heart in the ashes, 370 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:12.400 which he placed in an empty dynamite box and buried 371 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:16.319 the scene without reporting the discovery. The clergyman said that 372 00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:18.720 Morris did it in secret because he didn't want to 373 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.799 make the Solder family more upset. He said he had 374 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:24.039 hoped that they would find the organ in the ruins 375 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:28.039 of the house and call off their private investigation. George 376 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:31.319 and Jeanie eventually persuaded Chief Morris to show them where 377 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.240 he had buried the box. They dug up the box, 378 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:36.960 took it straight to a funeral home and asked the 379 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.079 director to open the box and examine it. When he 380 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:42.640 opened the box, he found what looked like a decayed 381 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:46.400 beef liver. It was untouched by the fire, meaning it 382 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:51.240 had been placed there after the blaze. A few days later, C. C. 383 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:53.880 Tinsley went to the funeral home to retrieve the liver 384 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:56.720 and get an official statement about the mystery organ, but 385 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.480 it had disappeared from the mortuary. The martisie and said 386 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.039 that since they did not have cold storage equipment on 387 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:05.799 the premises, he had left the liver just sitting on 388 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:08.720 his back porch until Tinsley could get there to claim it. 389 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:11.720 Maybe it had been thrown out with the trash, he suggested. 390 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:17.039 What was behind the buried liver. Morris's actions make no 391 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.160 sense if he'd wanted the Sowds to find the liver 392 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:23.720 to put their minds at rest, As he explained, how 393 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:25.880 did he think they would find it locked in a 394 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:30.079 box and buried under several feet of dirt, And wouldn't 395 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:32.839 the fact that it was in a box indicate that 396 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:36.839 someone had purposely placed it there. Even the fire marshal 397 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:41.359 stated there was no clear reason for Morris's peculiar actions. 398 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.920 This led the newspaper that covered the story to say 399 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.720 that it was obvious the case had not been investigated 400 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:50.480 thoroughly enough and that more should be done, but the 401 00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:54.880 authorities were not interested.

They again urged the Sowders to 402 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.640 move on with their lives, but George and Jeanie refused 403 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:01.920 to give up. They sent letters to the FBI trying 404 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:05.720 to get them involved with the investigation. The bureau declined, 405 00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:08.680 saying they considered the matter related appears to be of 406 00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:11.839 local character and does not come within the investigative jurisdiction 407 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:16.279 of the bureau. The FBI did eventually investigate the case 408 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:21.279 as a possible kidnapping, but found no new leads. In 409 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:24.759 August nineteen forty nine, the Sauters managed to convince Washington 410 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:27.920 d c. Pathologist Oscar B. Hunter to do a thorough 411 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:31.119 search through the dirt and ashes left at the site. 412 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:33.920 The local fire marshal rejected the idea of a further 413 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:36.359 search of the spot where the house it stood. He 414 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:38.960 believed that the initial search had been good enough and 415 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:42.000 there were no new clues to find, but the dig 416 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:46.119 went ahead and added more confusion to the case. In 417 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:49.720 the middle of the search, four spinal vertebrae bones were found. 418 00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:54.119 State authorities refused to examine the bones, so Tinsley sent 419 00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:57.920 them to the Smithsonian Institution, and experts there determined that 420 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.359 the bones belonged to a male between the u ages 421 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.359 of nineteen and twenty two, an age range that did 422 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:07.480 not match any of the missing children. Published reports stated 423 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.279 that Tinsley later traced the bones to a cemetery in 424 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:14.400 Mount Hope, West Virginia, but no explanation was available concerning 425 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.799 their theft from an unidentified grave or how they managed 426 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:20.680 to end up at the Solder fire scene. That's just 427 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:25.559 one of the many lingering mysteries in this story. Despite 428 00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:28.279 the evidence that the vertebrae did not belong to any 429 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:32.519 of the missing children, private investigator George Swain formally left 430 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:35.599 the case. He issued a statement that said he considered 431 00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:37.920 the case to be closed and his agency would not 432 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.079 be taking part in pursuing this matter further. The Sawters 433 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:44.880 quickly replaced him with Troy C. Simmons of the West 434 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:49.640 Virginia Merchant Police. He brought a new enthusiasm to the investigation, 435 00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:53.039 saying that he believed the children were killed in a 436 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:58.079 grudge murder, hinting at organized crime. He also believed that 437 00:25:58.119 --> 00:26:01.880 the five children missing never left the county. He and 438 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:04.880 his men planned to search abandoned wells and coal mines 439 00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.759 in the area. He also added that he felt confident 440 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:10.359 that arrests would be made in the next few days, 441 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:15.400 but no arrests were ever made. While Simmons was going 442 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.160 to work searching the coal mines in the region, The 443 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:21.920 Swters used the Smithsonian Report to interest the FBI in 444 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:25.319 their case. In nineteen fifty the Bureau opened a file 445 00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:28.839 on the Solder children as a possible interstate kidnapping, but 446 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:32.039 they only pursued it for two years with no results. 447 00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:36.240 Around that same time, the West Virginia State Police also 448 00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:39.079 looked into the case, but with the same amount of 449 00:26:39.079 --> 00:26:43.960 success or lack of it. Nothing happened, but the family 450 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:48.240 clung to hope. They ran newspaper ads and promised rewards, 451 00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.079 and then in nineteen fifty two, they erected a billboard 452 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.640 near Ansted, West Virginia that displayed photographs of the missing 453 00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:57.960 children with a five thousand dollars reward for information leading 454 00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:02.240 to their whereabouts. The text of the billboard read on 455 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.480 Christmas Eve, nineteen forty five, our home was set a 456 00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:09.680 fire and five of our children, ages five through fourteen, kidnapped. 457 00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:13.680 The officials blamed defective wiring, although lights were still burning 458 00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:16.839 after the fire started. The official report stated that the 459 00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.640 children had died in the fire. However, no bones were 460 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:21.720 found in their residue and there was no smell of 461 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:24.920 burning flesh during or after the fire. What was the 462 00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:27.720 motive of the law officers involved? What did they have 463 00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:30.920 to gain by making us suffer all these years of injustice? 464 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:34.559 Why did they lie and force us to accept those lies? 465 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:40.000 The billboard was a visible manifestation of the lingering hopes 466 00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:43.359 of the Solder family that their missing

children would someday 467 00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:48.480 come home. Sadly, it brought no useful tips. It did, however, 468 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:53.200 generate a lot of speculation. Rumors were constantly spread and 469 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:58.240 included lurid stories of Italian fascists, mafia gunmen, and orphanages 470 00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:03.000 who snatched children and sold them to childless couples. George 471 00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:06.319 and Jeanie continued to be frustrated by the authorities who 472 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:10.559 refused to reopen the investigation, but as the years passed 473 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.400 they still refused to give up. They sent photographs of 474 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:18.039 the five children to every possible resource, which continued to 475 00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.880 generate rumors, vague stories, and alleged sightings from all over 476 00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:25.640 the country. A woman in Charleston reported seeing all the 477 00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:28.960 children once and Lewis a year later, both times and 478 00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.000 the company of unknown adults. An anonymous letter writer claimed 479 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:36.480 the children were living in Florida. The Sawters traveled there 480 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.480 to find out, but school records and birth certificates proved 481 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:42.440 that none of the children in Florida were the missing children. 482 00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:46.240 Another letter claimed that Martha was living in a convent 483 00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.559 in Saint Louis. Someone in Texas claimed to have overheard 484 00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:53.480 men talking about a fire that happened in West Virginia 485 00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:56.599 on Christmas Eve. A letter sent to a local sheriff 486 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.000 in Santa Cruz County in California claimed the missing children 487 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:04.720 were living in the town of Davenport. They weren't. Once 488 00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:07.559 George saw a newspaper photo of young students at a 489 00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.200 New York Children's Aid Society ballet school and insisted that 490 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:13.720 one of the girls in the photo was his daughter, Betty. 491 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:17.200 He drove to Manhattan in search of the child, but 492 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.640 her parents refused to let him see her. Unable to 493 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:22.599 come up with a plan to get another look at her. 494 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:27.279 He drove home disappointed. In nineteen sixty six, a woman 495 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.279 in Texas contacted the Sowters to say that she'd overheard 496 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:33.839 a conversation between two men, one of whom identified himself 497 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.640 as Maurice Sowter. George traveled to Texas, but by the 498 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.480 time he got there, the man was long gone. The 499 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.920 most promising lead in nearly two decades came in nineteen 500 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:49.319 sixty seven, when Jeanie received an anonymous envelope through the mail. 501 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.480 It was postmarked in Central City, Kentucky, and contained a 502 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.200 photograph of a young man about the age her son 503 00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:58.240 Lewis would have been. Written on the back was a 504 00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:03.839 cryptic message, Saunter, I love brother Frankie Illettle boys A 505 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:08.920 nine zero, one, three, two or thirty five. While George 506 00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:11.880 and Genie were convinced that the photo was an older 507 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:14.799 looking likeness of their missing son, they cannot interpret the 508 00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:17.680 cryptic message on the back or trace the center of 509 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:21.160 the photograph. They rushed the photo and envelope to the 510 00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:25.640 West Virginia Attorney General's Office, convinced this would reopen the investigation, 511 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.119 but officials there were not convinced to the photo's authenticity. 512 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:33.920 Frustrated but not defeated, they hired a new private detective 513 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.599 to go to Central City and find out what he could. 514 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.160 He took their money and was never heard from again. 515 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:44.799 Heartbroken once again, George and Jeanie had the photographs enlarged 516 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:47.519 and framed and placed it on their fireplace mantal with 517 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:51.039 photographs of their other children. They were sure that it 518 00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:54.000 was Lewis. They even had the new photograph added to 519 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.839 the billboard with new text. Picture number six received in 520 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:01.480 nineteen sixty seven. Lewis one and the same now in 521 00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:06.599 another state. George Sotter died in nineteen sixty nine. Still 522 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.799 hoping for a break in the case, Jeanie fenced in 523 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:13.920 their property and rarely left it. George's obituary stated that 524 00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:16.599 he was survived by his wife and five remaining children. 525 00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:21.880 No mention was made of Maurice, Martha, Lewis, Jenny or Betty. 526 00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.880 The story remained alive even though no new leeds materialized. 527 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:30.240 In nineteen eighty four, Genie asked her son John to 528 00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:33.039 paint over the text on the billboard, promising a reward, 529 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:35.519 as she no longer had the money to pay if 530 00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:38.759 someone should eventually claim it. When the children returned home. 531

00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:43.279 She died five years later, still convinced that her children 532 00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:48.119 were out there somewhere. The billboard and anstead remained in 533 00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.519 place until her death, when it was finally taken down. Today, 534 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.359 the youngest surviving family member, Sylvia Sotter Paxton, keeps the 535 00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.920 Famili's haunting story alive with help from her daughter, pursuing 536 00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.279 leads on the Internet or wherever information might come from. 537 00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:08.880 Law enforcement officials still continue to refuse to reopen the case, 538 00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:16.240 even though a young man was tried, convicted, and died 539 00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:19.000 in prison for the murder, along with two other murders. 540 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:22.039 There are many who believe Suzanne Dagnant's murder was never 541 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.920 actually solved, and that maybe the reason that Suzanne's spirit 542 00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:30.160 has never rested in peace. That story is up next 543 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:55.440 on Weird Darkness. January in Chicago was always brutal. The 544 00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:59.960 winner of nineteen forty six was no different. Freedommeyer lived 545 00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:02.160 on the first floor of an apartment building on North 546 00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:06.160 Winthrop Avenue in the Edgewater neighborhood. She'd lived there for years, 547 00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:09.480 She'd forgotten how long, moving in not long after her 548 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:12.440 husband had died It wasn't fancy, but it was just 549 00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:15.680 fine for her simple tastes. It was a nice neighborhood, 550 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:19.000 and she had a few friends, mostly widows like she was, 551 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:22.400 who went to the movies, played cards, and went shopping 552 00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:25.920 together on Saturday mornings. If there was anything about her 553 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:29.880 life that she would change, Frieda would wish away her arthritis. 554 00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:33.640 The pain wasn't usually too bad. It wasn't often that 555 00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.559 an asprin or two didn't do the trick, but winter 556 00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:40.839 was especially tough. The temperatures had been frigid and Frida's 557 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.759 knees had been acting up. She'd even had to postpone 558 00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:46.640 her regular shopping trip with a friend that morning. And 559 00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:49.559 now here it was practically the middle of the night 560 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.240 and Frida was still awake. She'd warmed up a heating 561 00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:55.920 pad for her knees, but it wasn't doing much good. 562 00:33:56.440 --> 00:34:00.240 She just wanted to sleep, but her arthritis wasn't cooperating. 563 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:03.039 Perhaps she'd put the kettle on and have a cup 564 00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:05.759 of tea with some milk. That might just do the trick. 565 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:09.679 Frida gingerly got up from her chair where she'd been 566 00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:13.039 listening to the radio and walked toward the kitchen. She 567 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.320 glanced at the clock. Oh my, it was three forty 568 00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:19.880 am my goodness, she thought, I'm going to be tired tomorrow, 569 00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:24.199 or rather today. She shook her head. Frida had just 570 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:27.440 entered the kitchen when she heard a loud bang from downstairs. 571 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.119 That's odd. The only thing below her apartment was the 572 00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:34.679 laundry room. What would someone be doing down there at 573 00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:38.199 this hour. Her curiosity got the better of her, and 574 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:40.119 she went to the window and peered out of a 575 00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:43.800 narrow gap in the curtains. The noise she'd heard had 576 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.679 been the outside door to the laundry room being pushed open. 577 00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:50.239 She saw a man go inside. The light from the 578 00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:53.440 laundry room spilled out into the space between her building 579 00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:57.480 and the one next door. A pale yellow glow splashed 580 00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:00.880 against the brick wall, and then was gone. The door 581 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:05.800 was closed again. Frida shrugged. It seemed an odd time 582 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:09.119 to be doing laundry, but it was none of her business. 583 00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:11.679 She put the tea kettle on the stove and opened 584 00:35:11.719 --> 00:35:13.639 a bottle of aspirin while she waited for the water 585 00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:16.519 to boil. In the time that it took her to 586 00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:20.239 make tea, the man downstairs apparently finished his business. She 587 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:23.599 heard some rustling about, and, still curious, she looked out 588 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:26.679 the window again. She couldn't see him very well, but 589 00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:29.440 he was wearing a gray hat and a tan overcoat. 590 00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:32.920 He was probably in his thirties or forties. She didn't 591 00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:36.280 recognize him. Frida settled down into her chair and a 592 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:40.000 few minutes later heard a sound downstairs. The man, whoever 593 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:43.719 he was, had returned. The basement door creaked open, and 594 00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.880 she could hear some one moving around. She pulled herself 595 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:49.320 up from her chair again and pulled back the curtain. 596 00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:52.559 The sane man in the gray hat and tan coat 597 00:35:52.960 -->

00:35:56.800 was hurrying away down the alley. What in the world, 598 00:35:57.239 --> 00:35:59.960 she thought to herself. She was still at the window 599 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:03.360 when he returned a third time, only a few minutes later. 600 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:06.480 This time he only stayed for a moment. She wasn't 601 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:10.079 even sure he went inside, and then he was gone. 602 00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:14.280 This time he didn't come back. With the evening's excitement 603 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:18.039 Finally over, Frida's eyelids began to droop. The tea and 604 00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:21.199 aspirin had served their purpose. She switched off the radio, 605 00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:24.079 turned off the light, and went down the hallway to bed. 606 00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:28.920 A few minutes later, she was asleep. Frida was still 607 00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:31.119 sleeping the next morning when it was discovered that a 608 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:34.800 little girl named Suzanne Degnan, who lived just a block 609 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:39.360 or so away, had disappeared during the night. Suzanne was 610 00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:43.880 never seen alive again. She had been murdered and butchered, 611 00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.880 her body scattered in pieces throughout the neighborhood. The news 612 00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:51.119 sent a tremor of terror throughout Edgewater, and the residents 613 00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:54.679 closely watched the newspapers as the police investigation announced the 614 00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:59.119 discovery of the girl's missing pieces. Then, just steps from 615 00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:01.880 where her head was found, the police uncovered what the 616 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:06.119 newspapers would dub the killer's murderer room. It was the 617 00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:10.440 basement laundry room of North Winthrop Avenue, right below Breeda 618 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:15.719 Meyer's apartment. Who killed the girl that remains a matter 619 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:19.239 of some debate even after all these years. Even though 620 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.639 a young man was tried, convicted, and died in prison 621 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:25.519 for the murder along with two others, there are many 622 00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:30.000 who believe that Suzanne's murder was never actually solved, and 623 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:33.039 that may be the reason that Suzanne's spirit has never 624 00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:37.519 rested in peace. On the hot summer day of June fifth, 625 00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:40.360 nineteen forty five, the body of forty three year old 626 00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:43.440 Josephine Ross was found in her apartment at forty one 627 00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:47.079 oh eight North Kenmore Avenue, a building that overlooked Chicago's 628 00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:51.199 Graceland Cemetery. Her body lay in bed as though it 629 00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:55.599 had been posed. Investigators found that she had been repeatedly 630 00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:58.639 stabbed and her throat had been cut, but her body 631 00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.079 had been washed. Her killer had then tried to put 632 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:06.119 her flesh back together with adhesive tape. Her head was 633 00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.039 then wrapped in a skirt, perhaps to shield her eyes 634 00:38:09.079 --> 00:38:12.079 from the face of the man who took her life. 635 00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:14.760 The murder had been reported by Josephine's daughter, who had 636 00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.599 to pass a lie detector test to convince detectives that 637 00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:22.079 she had not staged the unusual crime scene. The investigators 638 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.480 had never seen anything like it. It would soon become 639 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:29.840 obvious that they were completely out of their element. Although 640 00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:34.280 Josephine's body had been washed, investigators still found dark hairs 641 00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:38.840 clutched in her hand, presumably from the killer. Several of 642 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:41.960 her former boyfriends and an ex husband were questioned, but 643 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:47.639 leeds quickly fizzled out. The case turned cold. Six months later, 644 00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:50.280 on December tenth, the body of thirty two year old 645 00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:53.360 Frances Brown was found slumped over her bathtub in her 646 00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:56.639 home at thirty nine forty one North Pine Grove, which 647 00:38:56.719 --> 00:38:59.880 was only five blocks from the Ros's apartment. Her apartment 648 00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:03.280 was open, and a cleaning woman heard her radio playing 649 00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:07.599 loudly and went inside. She quickly called the police. Francis 650 00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:09.679 had been shot in the head and a butcher's knife 651 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:12.039 had been driven into her throat with such force that 652 00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:14.599 it came out the other side of her neck. Her 653 00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:18.440 body had been stripped naked, and just like Josephine Ross, 654 00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:21.920 she had been washed clean of blood. Her head was 655 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:26.199 wrapped in towels. Again, just as was the case with 656 00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:30.039 Josephine Ross, police assumed that she had surprised an intruder, 657 00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:34.320 but nothing had been taken from the apartment. Instead, this 658 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:37.760 time a note was left behind. It had been written 659 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:42.079 on the living room wall with Francis's lipstick. For Heaven's sake, 660 00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:46.000 catch me before I kill more. I cannot control myself. 661 00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:52.280 This note earned the murderer the nickname Lipstick Killer. Fortunately, 662 00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:54.960 the killer left behind a

bloody fingerprint smudge on the 663 00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:57.800 door jam into the apartment, along with a witness to 664 00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:02.719 his escape. George Wine reported hearing gunshots around four a m. 665 00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:06.360 In John derreck. The apartment building's night clerk reported seeing 666 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:09.159 a nervous man aged thirty five to forty and approximately 667 00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:11.800 one hundred and forty pounds get off the elevator and 668 00:40:11.960 --> 00:40:14.440 walk to the door to the street before leaving on foot. 669 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:18.519 And yet, four days after the murder, Chicago police announced 670 00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.400 they had reason to believe the killer was actually a woman. 671 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:25.639 Newspaper reporters had flocked to the scene anxious for a 672 00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:29.599 story about a multiple killer. Headlines suggested that a new 673 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.400 Jack the Ripper, was stalking the city and promoted the 674 00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:37.400 name of the Lipstick Killer. The police investigation went in circles. 675 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:42.000 Detectives began rounding up sex offenders, deviants, and mental cases, 676 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:46.440 but made no progress. The bloody fingerprint smudge was examined, 677 00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:50.079 it didn't match anyone on file, and the case quickly died. 678 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:53.400 It looked as though the only chance the authorities might 679 00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:56.239 have to catch the killer was if he committed another 680 00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:00.800 murder and made a mistake. A month later, the Lipstick 681 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:04.079 Killer was replaced in the headlines by a missing childcase. 682 00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:08.679 A little girl named Suzanne Degnan, aged six, had vanished 683 00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:11.719 from her family's home at fifty nine forty three North 684 00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:15.599 Kenmore Avenue. Her first floor bedroom window was open and 685 00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:19.280 a ladder was placed beneath it. Outside the apartment, police 686 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:22.559 also located a scrawled ransom note on the property. It 687 00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:26.920 read get twenty thousand dollars ready and wait for word. 688 00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:32.000 Do not notify FBI or police. Bills in fives and tens. 689 00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:35.639 On the reverse of the note was written burn this 690 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:40.519 for her safety. On the morning after it was discovered 691 00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:44.119 Suzanne was missing, a man telephoned the Degnin apartment several 692 00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:47.960 times demanding the ransom, but he always hung up before 693 00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:52.320 any details could be arranged. Shortly thereafter, the Mayor of Chicago, 694 00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:55.679 Edward Kelly, also received the note. This is to tell 695 00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:58.239 you how sorry I am not to get old Degnan 696 00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:01.639 instead of this girl. Roselt and the OPA made their 697 00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:05.800 own laws, why shouldn't I? And a lot more. This 698 00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.039 note changed the course of the investigation, at least for 699 00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:12.119 a short time, and sent the police in search of 700 00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:15.559 a meat packer. There was a nationwide strike by meat 701 00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:18.360 packers taking place, and workers were angry with the OPA 702 00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:21.880 Office of Price Administration, which at the time was considering 703 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:27.360 extending wartime rationing and price in wage freezes. Suzanne's father, James, 704 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:30.199 was a Midwest official of the OPA and had recently 705 00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:33.880 moved his family to Chicago. Another executive of the OPA 706 00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:37.280 had just been assigned armed guards after receiving threats against 707 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:41.199 his children. Also recently, a man involved in black market 708 00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:47.760 meat sales had been decapitated and killed. The meatpackers meant business, However, 709 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:51.920 that part of the investigation led nowhere. Was the note 710 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.400 sent to Mayor Kelly merely a threat by a disgruntled worker, 711 00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:58.840 or was it sent by a legitimate suspect in the kidnapping? 712 00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:05.360 Never know, The police never got anywhere with the lead. Meanwhile, 713 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:08.280 neighbors of the Degden family were questioned, but most had 714 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:12.000 nothing useful to report, that is until police received an 715 00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:15.400 anonymous telephone call suggesting that the police look in the 716 00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:20.480 sewers near the Degden home. Officers of volunteers scoured the neighborhood, 717 00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:23.400 and just after dark that evening, a policeman made a 718 00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:27.519 gruesome discovery. Behind a building on the west side of Kenmore, 719 00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:30.000 about a block from the Degden home. He saw a 720 00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:32.519 storm drain sewer that appeared to have been tampered with. 721 00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:36.079 When he lifted the lid and peered inside with his flashlight, 722 00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:40.000 he found Suzanne's severed head floating in the water. A 723 00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:44.320 blue ribbon was still tied in her blonde hair. Soon 724 00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:48.679 more body parts began to turn up. Suzanne's right leg 725 00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.039 was found in a catch basin in the same alley, 726 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:53.320 and her left leg in an alley east of Kenmore. 727

00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:56.119 Her torso was discovered in a storm drain at the 728 00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:59.559 northwest corner of Kenmore and Ardmore. Each piece had been 729 00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:03.360 found a little further away from the family home. It 730 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:06.800 took investigators an additional month to find her arms, which 731 00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:08.599 were in a sewer drain on the other side of 732 00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:11.719 the Howard Elevated train line, more than three blocks from 733 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:15.559 the Degnen home. All the drains had been capped with 734 00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:20.360 circular cast iron manhole covers weighing more than one hundred pounds, 735 00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:23.320 yet no one heard them being lifted or even slid 736 00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:28.079 back into place. The newspaper luridly reported each new development 737 00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:31.880 in the Startling case. The public was outraged and called 738 00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:35.519 for vengeance. The Chicago Police Commissioner and State's Attorney both 739 00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:38.559 personally appeared at the Degnant home and vowed to capture 740 00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:41.639 whoever had carried out such a horrific crime and bring 741 00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:45.159 them to justice. The search of in an apartment building 742 00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:48.079 at fifty nine oh one North Winthrop Avenue, near the 743 00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:51.440 spot where Suzanne's head was found, uncovered a basement laundry 744 00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:54.760 room with four tubs containing evidence that she had been 745 00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:58.719 dismembered there. The floor had been mopped, but blood was 746 00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:02.000 found in the drains of all four tubs. The press 747 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:05.519 began referring to this as the murder room. It was 748 00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:10.000 easy to see why. It was dark, dingy, and grim, 749 00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:12.920 and the photographs of the dented laundry tubs was enough 750 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:15.800 to send a chill up the spine of any newspaper reader. 751 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:21.000 The unpleasant moniker was likely inaccurate. However, an autopsy would 752 00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:23.639 show that Suzanne was likely alive when she was taken 753 00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:26.880 from her home, was murdered at a secondary location and 754 00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:30.519 then taken to the laundry room. Doctor Kerns from the 755 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:33.679 coroner's office reported that a very sharp instrument had been 756 00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:36.800 used to dismember the body. He noted that it was 757 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:38.880 carried out by either a man who worked in a 758 00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:42.079 profession that required the study of anatomy or one with 759 00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:45.639 the background in dissection. Not even the average doctor could 760 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:48.920 be as skillful. It had to be a meat cutter. 761 00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:53.199 Another doctor agreed, stating that it was a very clean 762 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:57.960 job with absolutely no signs of hacking. As excitement about 763 00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:01.360 the crime continued to build, more her witnesses came forward. 764 00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:05.000 The police gave over one hundred and seventy polygraph tests 765 00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:07.440 trying to root out the truth from the stories and 766 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:11.599 eyewitness accounts. Ethel Hargrove, the tenant who lived in the 767 00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:15.599 apartment above the Degnan family, reported hearing loud male voices 768 00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:18.960 downstairs and dogs barking when she arrived home at twelve 769 00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:24.519 fifty am. Another tenant corroborated her story. Frieda Meyer also 770 00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:26.719 came forward to tell the police about the man who 771 00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:30.000 entered the laundry room during the early morning hours. She 772 00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:32.800 provided a time for the man's visits, and her story 773 00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:36.639 was corroborated by Marian Klein and Jake de Rosa, who 774 00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:39.280 had looked out their window around the same time and 775 00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:42.039 saw a man in a gray hat and tan overcoat. 776 00:46:42.840 --> 00:46:44.800 They said that they saw him start to go into 777 00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:48.079 the laundry room. This was the third visit reported by Freda, 778 00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:51.480 but he ran away as if something had disturbed him. 779 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.719 Another neighbor, George Subgrunsky, went to the police shortly after 780 00:46:55.719 --> 00:46:58.239 the murder and reported seeing a man walking to the 781 00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:01.880 Degnan home around one am. He described the man as 782 00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:05.280 being about five feet nine inches tall, approximately one hundred 783 00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.760 and seventy pounds, and thirty five years old. He added 784 00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:10.880 that the man was carrying a bag and wearing a 785 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:14.920 light colored hat and a dark coat. The most puzzling 786 00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:18.639 testimony came from Robert Reisner, a cab driver, who saw 787 00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:21.400 a woman behind the Degden home at one thirty am. 788 00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:24.239 She had a bundle under each arm and got into 789 00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:26.360 a car that was driven by a gray haired man. 790 00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:30.440 Missy Crawford, who lived across the street, said she saw 791 00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:32.679 a car with a man and woman driving up and 792 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.920 down the street at two thirty a m. Were they 793 00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:40.599 the same man and woman that Reister

saw? After sifting 794 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:43.679 through the testimony, the police had a description of the killer. 795 00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:46.920 He was likely mail between thirty five and forty years 796 00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:49.400 of age, weighing between one hundred and forty to one 797 00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:52.760 hundred and seventy pounds. He was under six feet tall 798 00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:56.760 and strong, strong enough to lift heavy manhole covers that 799 00:47:56.840 --> 00:47:59.480 weighed more than one hundred pounds. He would have a 800 00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:03.960 background in anatomy or dissection. Since the dismemberment of Suzanne 801 00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:07.199 was done with skill and precision, he was likely an 802 00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:10.639 angry meat packer with reason to be upset with the OPA. 803 00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:15.280 He might even have a female accomplice. The first man 804 00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:18.159 the police arrested was sixty five year old Hector Verba, 805 00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:21.119 a janitor in the building where the Dagnan family lived. 806 00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:24.239 They theorized that his job might get him access to 807 00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:26.480 the laundry room, and the state of the ransom note 808 00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:29.480 suggested it had been written by a dirty hand, just 809 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:32.840 like a janitor would have. The problem was that the 810 00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:36.400 Belgian immigrant didn't remotely fit the profile that the police 811 00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.599 had already put together. Tenants in the building called him 812 00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:43.679 a kindly old man. He had no surgical knowledge nor 813 00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:46.400 skill as a butcher. He was hauled away to the 814 00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:50.519 Summerdale District Police Station Anyway, where investigators spent forty eight 815 00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:53.480 hours trying to beat a confession out of him. They 816 00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:56.840 even pressured Verbav's wife to implicate her husband in the murder, 817 00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:01.320 but she refused. Verbal was badly be during this ordeal. 818 00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:05.199 He later said, Oh, they hanged me up. They blindfolded me. 819 00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:07.880 I can't put up my arms, they're sore. They had 820 00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:10.559 handcuffs on me for hours and hours. They threw me 821 00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:13.599 in a cell and blindfolded me. They handcuffed my hands 822 00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:15.519 behind my back and pulled me up on the bars 823 00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:18.760 until my toes touched the floor. I know, eat, I 824 00:49:18.840 --> 00:49:22.280 go to the hospital. Oh, I am so sick anymore 825 00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:27.239 and I would have confessed to anything. Verbal refused to 826 00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:29.360 admit that he had anything to do with the crime. 827 00:49:30.039 -->

00:49:33.119 On January tenth, lawyers from the Janitor's Union managed to 828 00:49:33.159 --> 00:49:35.599 free Verbal, and it was later determined he could not 829 00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:39.239 write English well enough to have penned the ransom note. 830 00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:41.880 He ended up spending ten days in the hospital. After 831 00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:45.039 he was released, he sued the police for brutality and 832 00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:49.920 was eventually awarded twenty thousand dollars. Following another potential lead, 833 00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:54.239 investigators looked at Sidney Sherman, a recently discharged marine who 834 00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:57.960 had served overseas during the war. Police reported finding blonde 835 00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:00.559 hairs in the back of the Dagden apartment building, near 836 00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:02.880 a wire that they suspected could have been used as 837 00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:06.760 a garret. To strangle Suzanne. Nearby was a handkerchief with 838 00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:12.440 a laundry marked name s Sherman. Detectives searched military records 839 00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:16.159 and found that a Sydney Sherman lived at the Hyde Park, YMCA. 840 00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:18.480 When they went to question him, they found that he 841 00:50:18.519 --> 00:50:20.920 had left his room without checking out and had even 842 00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:24.840 quit his job without collecting his final paycheck. Sherman was 843 00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:29.079 found four days later in Toledo, Ohio. He explained that 844 00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:31.719 he had eloped with his girlfriend and denied that the 845 00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:36.039 handkerchief was his. He was given a polygraph test and passed. 846 00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:40.039 The police did eventually find the owner of the handkerchief. 847 00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:43.320 It belonged to airman Seymour Sherman of New York City, 848 00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:46.119 but he had an air tight alibi. He was out 849 00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:48.719 of the country when Suzanne was murdered. He had no 850 00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:53.000 idea how his handkerchief ended up in Chicago. In February, 851 00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:56.800 another discovery in the case was made. Suzanne's arms were 852 00:50:56.840 --> 00:51:00.360 found by sewer workers. Her body had already been buried. 853 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:03.960 By this time. Weeks passed with more dead ends and 854 00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:08.760 false clues, and the case grew colder. Investigators followed up 855 00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:10.480 on the ransom calls that had been made to the 856 00:51:10.519 --> 00:51:13.800 Degnen house on the morning after Suzanne had vanished. The 857 00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:18.639 investigation led them to a neighborhood hoodlum named Theodore Campbell, who, 858 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:22.480 under questioning, claimed to know who had killed Suzanne. He 859 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:26.199

told officers that the killer was Vincent Costello, another neighborhood 860 00:51:26.239 --> 00:51:29.599 punk who lived only four blocks away from the Degnans. 861 00:51:29.639 --> 00:51:32.760 According to Campbell, Costello told him on January seventh that 862 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:36.159 he had kidnapped Suzanne, killed her, and disposed of her body. 863 00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:39.360 He pressured Campbell into calling the Degnens to try and 864 00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:43.039 get ransom money from them. The police knew about the 865 00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:45.639 strange calls that had been made to the family that morning, 866 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:48.400 so they had no reason not to believe the story. 867 00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:52.760 Detectives were also aware of Vincent Costello. He'd attended a 868 00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.679 local high school until he was convicted of armed robbery 869 00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:58.760 at the age of sixteen and sent away to reform school. 870 00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:03.679 Now he was out and in trouble again. News spread, 871 00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:06.880 and the Chicago Tribune announced that the case had been solved. 872 00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:12.599 It hadn't. Costello was arrested and interrogated overnight. By morning, 873 00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:16.320 the story had fallen apart. Both boys were given polygraph tests, 874 00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:19.079 and it soon became clear that they knew nothing about 875 00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:22.800 the murder. Eventually, they admitted they had overheard police officers 876 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:25.119 talking about the case on the morning after the abduction 877 00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:27.960 and thought that maybe they could make some easy money 878 00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:31.800 off of the Degnance by pretending to be kidnappers. Neither 879 00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:35.639 of them would ever be accused of being smart. The 880 00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:39.440 mystery of the telephone calls had been solved, but investigators 881 00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:43.239 were no closer to finding the killer. By April, more 882 00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:46.800 than three hundred seventy suspects had been questioned and cleared. 883 00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:51.639 The press was becoming increasingly impatient, criticizing the police's inability 884 00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:55.320 to catch the monster that killed Suzanne. In June, another 885 00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:59.119 suspect emerged. His name was Richard Russell Thomas, and he 886 00:52:59.199 --> 00:53:02.400 was a nurse living in Phoenix, Arizona. He had been 887 00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:05.000 in Chicago at the time of Suzanne's murder, and a 888 00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:09.159 handwriting expert for the Phoenix Police Department informed Chicago officials 889 00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:12.920 of great similarities between Thomas's handwriting and the writing of 890 00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:16.199 the Degnan ransom note. He had been accused of

writing 891 00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:18.599 an extortion note, and many of the phrases that he 892 00:53:18.679 --> 00:53:22.199 used in it were similar to the ransom note. In addition, 893 00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:25.239 he had medical training as a nurse, which matched the 894 00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:29.920 profile suggested by the police. While in Chicago, Thomas had 895 00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:32.440 lived on the South Side, but he had frequented a 896 00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:35.119 car yard across the street from where Suzanne's arms had 897 00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:39.280 been discovered. When questioned by police, he openly admitted to 898 00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:42.760 the murder. They were again sure they had their man, 899 00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:47.079 but all that changed when a new suspect came along, 900 00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:50.280 the college student who was caught fleeing the scene of 901 00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:54.880 a burglary. When Thomas suddenly recanted his confession, the police 902 00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.960 let him go. They were convinced that they finally had 903 00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:01.360 their killer, and they'd do anything to prove it. On 904 00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:06.000 the afternoon of June twenty sixth, nineteen forty six, William Hyrens, seventeen, 905 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:08.000 was on his way to the post office to cash 906 00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:11.760 one thousand dollars in savings bonds purchased with stolen money 907 00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:14.880 from a series of small time burglaries. He had a 908 00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:19.320 date with his girlfriend later and needed cash. Hirns stuck 909 00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:22.039 a revolver in his pocket before he left home, nervous 910 00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:24.280 because he would be carrying such a large amount of 911 00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:27.519 cash when he arrived at the post office. It was closed, 912 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:30.960 but he still needed money, so he decided to steal some. 913 00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:34.039 He went to a building in Edgewater where he had 914 00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:37.519 stolen things before and slipped into an unlocked apartment on 915 00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:41.239 the third floor. Hirens was unlucky on this day. A 916 00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:44.039 tenant spotted him in the hall and confronted him. He 917 00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:46.719 fled out and then up the backstairs of another building, 918 00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.719 but a resident spotted him and called the police. He 919 00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:52.440 tried to escape down a staircase and was cornered by 920 00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:56.079 two police officers. He pulled out his gun. According to 921 00:54:56.159 --> 00:54:59.000 Hyn's he turned and attempted to run, which resulted in 922 00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:02.039 a struggle and an offer. Duty police officer Albert Cunningham 923 00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:05.039 dropping three clay flower pots on Hiran's head from the 924 00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:09.599 top of the stairs, knocking him unconscious. The police officers 925 00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:13.159 told a different story in their version of events. Hyrons 926 00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:16.079 charged both of them with his gun, firing twice, but 927 00:55:16.119 --> 00:55:19.639 the gun misfired both times. After that, he tossed the 928 00:55:19.639 --> 00:55:21.920 gun away and fought with them until the flower pots 929 00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:25.519 were smashed on his head. William Hirrons was taken to 930 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:28.079 the police hospital at Cook County Jail, where he was 931 00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:31.960 stitched up, bandaged, and strapped to a bed. He drifted 932 00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.639 out of consciousness but heard someone say that he was 933 00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:37.840 a suspect in the Degnin case and felt his fingerprints 934 00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:41.360 being taken. How did a small time burglar end up 935 00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:45.119 being linked to not only the sensational murder of Susanne Degnan, 936 00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:49.039 but also to the two murders committed by the lipstick killer. 937 00:55:50.119 --> 00:55:56.480 That is a confusing, complicated, and very ugly story. William 938 00:55:56.519 --> 00:55:59.320 Hirrons was born in nineteen twenty eight and was raised 939 00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:02.719 and attendant s school all over Chicago's North Side. His 940 00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:05.920 parents grew flowers in a greenhouse on Chase Avenue, just 941 00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:08.920 east of Western until the Depression put them out of business. 942 00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:12.320 His father, George, tried his luck at a small flower 943 00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:15.239 shop downtown, and when it failed, went to work as 944 00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:19.519 a security guard. William attended several Catholic elementary schools as 945 00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:22.679 a child, including Saint Mary of the Lake Catholic School 946 00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:25.559 at forty two hundred North Kenmore, a half block away 947 00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:29.760 from where the lipstag victim Josephine Ross was murdered. When 948 00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:33.079 William was a teenager, the Hiran's neighbors began noticing that 949 00:56:33.079 --> 00:56:37.039 women's undergarments had started disappearing from clothes lines and later 950 00:56:37.239 --> 00:56:41.960 from dresser drawers. Apparently William was hiding them away to enjoy. Later, 951 00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:46.119 he outgrew his fascination with women's undergarments, but did not 952 00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:50.360 outgrow his need to commit burglaries. He began breaking into houses, 953 00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:54.440 stealing cash, jewelry, guns, and any kind of valuables he 954 00:56:54.440 --> 00:56:56.920 could get his hands on. By the time of his 955 00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:59.639 first arrest, he had a collection of about three thousand, 956

00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:03.239 five one hundred dollars in stolen items. He was examined 957 00:57:03.280 --> 00:57:06.559 by a psychiatrist for the Juvenile Court, and he determined 958 00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:09.360 that William had a compulsion for theft. He called it 959 00:57:09.559 --> 00:57:14.639 neurotic stealing. Many of the burglaries that William committed forced 960 00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:17.920 him into death defying acts, jumping from one building to 961 00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:21.920 another several stories above the street. He climbed into apartment 962 00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:24.719 windows on high floors without fear, and had a talent 963 00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:29.679 for scaling walls seemed impassable at first glance. During some robberies, 964 00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:32.800 he started fires or defecated on the floor. Unable to 965 00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:37.039 control the strange urges that seized him. William was arrested 966 00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:40.199 for the first time. In June nineteen forty two, the 967 00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:42.800 police had been staking out a building on Sheridan Road 968 00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:45.760 that had been burglarized several times and caught him in 969 00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:49.280 the act. William was only thirteen years old and in 970 00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:53.159 eighth grade. He confessed to ten other burglaries, only a 971 00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:55.840 fraction of the real number that he'd committed, and the 972 00:57:55.880 --> 00:58:00.360 newspapers called him a one boy crime wave. Instead of 973 00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:03.960 being sent to a reformatory, William was allowed to attend Gibbult, 974 00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:08.079 a privately run Catholic school in Indiana. He stayed there 975 00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:10.840 for the next year. He was a model student and 976 00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:14.199 was sent home in June nineteen forty three. His family 977 00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:17.639 moved to ten twenty West Loyola Avenue, six blocks from 978 00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:22.199 where Suzanne Degan was later kidnapped and murdered. The Catholic 979 00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:25.800 reform school had little effect on William. On August eighth, 980 00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:28.360 nineteen forty three, he was caught inside of a nearby 981 00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:32.159 apartment building. According to the police, eight or nine apartments 982 00:58:32.199 --> 00:58:35.519 had been robbed before William was discovered. The young boy 983 00:58:35.599 --> 00:58:40.159 was arrested again. William's mother, Margaret, pleaded with the judge 984 00:58:40.159 --> 00:58:42.199 in the case and convinced him to send William to 985 00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:45.320 the Saint Betta School, about eighty miles south west of Chicago. 986 00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:48.400 Even though the school did not normally admit students with 987 00:58:48.440 --> 00:58:51.920 a criminal record, they made an exception, believing that they

988 00:58:51.960 --> 00:58:55.280 could help him. William was there until nineteen forty five 989 00:58:55.360 --> 00:58:58.960 and was again a model student. After his court supervision 990 00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:03.960 was ended, turned to Chicago after his second arrest, William's 991 00:59:03.960 --> 00:59:07.519 parents decided that a more rural neighborhood with fewer houses 992 00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:10.440 to rob would benefit the young man. They were inted 993 00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:14.119 a farmhouse at Towi and Keeler Avenues, and George Hirrons 994 00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:16.239 helped his son get a summer job as a laborer 995 00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:20.360 for the Illinois Central Railroad in downtown Chicago. He traveled 996 00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:22.679 to work each day by catching a bus at Keeler 997 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:25.239 and taking it to the train station in Rogers Park. 998 00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:29.760 From there, he took the train downtown. On June fifth, 999 00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:33.440 nineteen forty five, William left home but never made it 1000 00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:37.039 to work. The next morning, the newspaper reported the mysterious 1001 00:59:37.119 --> 00:59:40.280 murder of Josephine Ross, whose apartment was very close to 1002 00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:43.639 the train line that William took to work. In the fall. 1003 00:59:43.800 --> 00:59:46.679 It was time for William to return to school, although 1004 00:59:46.760 --> 00:59:50.400 the court didn't require it. Margaret Hirns wanted William to 1005 00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:53.559 return to Saint Bettett to finish high school. William was 1006 00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:56.760 adamant about staying home. However, he heard about a special 1007 00:59:56.800 --> 01:00:00.239 program at the University of Chicago that allowed select DID 1008 01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:03.519 students to enter college early by taking a special exam. 1009 01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:07.840 He scored well, and in September nineteen forty five, entered 1010 01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:11.360 college as a sixteen year old freshman. His grades were 1011 01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:14.280 above average during the first semester, when he was also 1012 01:00:14.360 --> 01:00:18.199 committing burglaries for spending money, but burglary may not have 1013 01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:21.679 been all William had on his mind. On October fifth, 1014 01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:26.360 nineteen forty five, an Army WAC named Evelyn Peterson was 1015 01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:29.400 assaulted in an off campus apartment on Drexel Avenue by 1016 01:00:29.440 --> 01:00:32.679 an attacker who broke in through a skylight. The attack 1017 01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:35.239 was interrupted when her sister knocked at the apartment door 1018 01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:38.880 and the burglar fled. The sister later told police that 1019 01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:41.400 she had seen a suspicious stranger in the building earlier 1020 01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:45.239 that day. In July nineteen forty six, she picked William 1021 01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:49.039 Hyrens out of a police lineup. A little Over two 1022 01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:52.480 months later, on December tenth, Francis Brown was found murdered 1023 01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:55.840 in her apartment at thirty nine forty one North Pine Grove. 1024 01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:59.440 The killer unable to control himself, or so he said, 1025 01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:03.719 a message asking for help on the wall with Francis's lipstick. 1026 01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:08.079 After William was arrested on June twenty sixth for attempted 1027 01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:12.079 burglary and assault on the policemen, officers searched his University 1028 01:01:12.119 --> 01:01:15.519 of Chicago dorm room. They found loot from an estimated 1029 01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:20.280 twenty five to fifty burglaries, including cameras, jewelry, thousands of 1030 01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:23.119 dollars in bonds, and a scrap book that was filled 1031 01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:27.320 with photographs of prominent Nazi officials. The scrap book turned 1032 01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:29.599 out to be a war memento that was brought home 1033 01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:32.800 from Germany by a former soldier named Harry Gold. It 1034 01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:35.119 had been stolen from his apartment at fifty nine to 1035 01:01:35.159 --> 01:01:38.519 fifty nine North Kenmore Avenue during a burglary that had 1036 01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:42.719 occurred on January fifth, nineteen forty six. This placed William 1037 01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:45.599 Hirren's on the same block where Suzanne Degnan had been 1038 01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:50.119 kidnapped just twenty four hours before. She was taken. It 1039 01:01:50.199 --> 01:01:53.719 was the first s tale in William Hyron's coffin. Of course, 1040 01:01:53.760 --> 01:01:56.440 none of the officers who searched William's dorm room had 1041 01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:59.719 any idea about that they were simply carrying out a 1042 01:01:59.719 --> 01:02:04.119 war on a burglary charge. They inventoried everything they found 1043 01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:07.800 and estimated its value. The scrap book they believed was 1044 01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:11.440 worth about a dollar. Soon after those items were taken 1045 01:02:11.480 --> 01:02:13.960 to the precinct, a whole series of events was set 1046 01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:17.119 into motion when the Deggden ransom note had been found 1047 01:02:17.159 --> 01:02:20.000 in January. The Chicago crime Lab had been unable to 1048 01:02:20.039 --> 01:02:23.239 lift any fingerprints from it, but the FBI, using more 1049 01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:26.679 advanced techniques, managed to lift one print that was clear. 1050 01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:31.639 Before William's arrest, fingerprint expert Sergeant Thomas Laffey had compared 1051 01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:34.760 it to seven hundred other prints with no luck, But 1052 01:02:34.840 -->

01:02:37.880 that changed. On June twenty eighth, it was announced that 1053 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:40.960 they had a match. The fingerprint on the ransom note 1054 01:02:41.239 --> 01:02:45.400 belonged to William Hyron's. His prints also matched those found 1055 01:02:45.480 --> 01:02:49.360 in the off campus apartment of Evelyn Peterson, and there 1056 01:02:49.400 --> 01:02:53.119 was more. Sergeant Laffey was initially unable to match William 1057 01:02:53.119 --> 01:02:55.840 to the bloody fingerprint found in the apartment of lipstick 1058 01:02:55.920 --> 01:02:58.800 victim Francis Brown, but when a more complete set of 1059 01:02:58.840 --> 01:03:01.079 prints was taken, which in included the joints of his 1060 01:03:01.239 --> 01:03:05.599 right forefinger, a match was made. The FBI confirmed the 1061 01:03:05.599 --> 01:03:09.880 match on July thirteenth. The police also revealed some circumstantial 1062 01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:13.840 links between William and his victims. After detectives began investigating 1063 01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:16.679 his background, they learned that William had lived near the 1064 01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:19.559 Degnen home as well as the Rows and Brown apartments. 1065 01:03:20.199 --> 01:03:23.239 Although Frances Brown and the Degnen family lived nearly three 1066 01:03:23.239 --> 01:03:27.519 miles apart, William had burglarized homes on both of their blocks. 1067 01:03:27.639 --> 01:03:31.119 To the detectives, it seemed impossible that this was a coincidence. 1068 01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:35.039 State's attorney William Towey believed that they finally had the 1069 01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:38.320 infamous lipstick killer as well as the killer of little 1070 01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:42.119 Suzanne Degnan. Now they just had to get William to 1071 01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:52.199 admit it. More of the story The Bloody Murder and 1072 01:03:52.280 --> 01:04:14.199 Ghost of Suzanne Degnan is up next on Weird Darkness. 1073 01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:17.880 As soon as the police informed William that he was 1074 01:04:17.880 --> 01:04:22.400 being investigated for the three murders, he denied everything. He 1075 01:04:22.480 --> 01:04:25.440 was interrogated around the clock for six days, he was 1076 01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:28.599 beaten by the police and refused food and water. He 1077 01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:30.599 was not allowed to see his parents for four of 1078 01:04:30.639 --> 01:04:34.320 those days and was refused a lawyer for six William 1079 01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:37.440 was subjected to interrogation for three hours under the influence 1080 01:04:37.440 --> 01:04:42.079 of sodium pentathal, popularly known as truth serum. The drug 1081 01:04:42.119 --> 01:04:45.320 was administered without his parents' consent and without a warrant 1082 01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:49.559 by two psychiatrists, Haines and Roy Grinker. While under the 1083 01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:52.719 influence of the drug, William spoke of an alternate personality 1084 01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:57.039 named George who had actually committed the murders. After the 1085 01:04:57.159 --> 01:05:00.719 truth Serum wore off, William spoke with Captain Michael Ayern 1086 01:05:00.840 --> 01:05:03.480 and State's attorney Twoey, with a stenographer in the room. 1087 01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:07.519 He again told them that his alter ego, George, might 1088 01:05:07.559 --> 01:05:10.920 have committed the crimes. He also said that George, his 1089 01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:14.000 father's first name and William's middle name, had given him 1090 01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:17.199 the lute to hide in his dorm room. Ahem and 1091 01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:20.719 Toohey pressed for George's last name, but William said he 1092 01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:24.480 couldn't remember. He said it was a murmuring name. The 1093 01:05:24.519 --> 01:05:28.880 police translated this to murman. The newspapers took it twisted 1094 01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:33.199 it around and said that it was murder man. Investigators 1095 01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:37.760 questioned William's family and friends about this George, but learned nothing. 1096 01:05:38.519 --> 01:05:41.000 None of them had ever heard of his alter ego. 1097 01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:45.199 What William actually said during this interrogation is in dispute 1098 01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:49.280 and can't be confirmed because the original transcript has disappeared. 1099 01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:53.559 The problem with the interrogation is that most scientists believed 1100 01:05:53.559 --> 01:05:57.480 subjects under the influence of sodium pentathal can be easily influenced, 1101 01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:00.440 causing statements that are not entirely the true truth to 1102 01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:04.599 come out. By the nineteen fifties, most scientists had declared 1103 01:06:04.599 --> 01:06:07.960 truth serums to be invalid, and most courts ruled that 1104 01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:12.440 any testimony gained through their use was inadmissible. Unfortunately, for 1105 01:06:12.559 --> 01:06:16.519 William Hirrans, these scientific and legal opinions about truth serums 1106 01:06:16.519 --> 01:06:19.480 were still a few years away, as were the revelations 1107 01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:23.519 about the interrogation that eventually surfaced in nineteen fifty two, 1108 01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:27.760 after William had been convicted, William Towey admitted under oath 1109 01:06:27.960 --> 01:06:30.920 that he not only knew about the sodium pentathal procedure, 1110 01:06:31.199 --> 01:06:33.920 he had authorized it and paid the Grinkers one thousand 1111 01:06:33.920 --> 01:06:37.039 dollars to do it. That same year, the Grinkers admitted 1112 01:06:37.079 --> 01:06:40.679 that William never implicated himself in any of the killings. 1113 01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:43.920 On his fifth day in custody, William was given a 1114 01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:47.920 lumbar puncture without anesthesia and then

driven to police headquarters 1115 01:06:47.960 --> 01:06:51.239 for a polygraph test. They tried to administer the test 1116 01:06:51.320 --> 01:06:54.079 right away, but ultimately had to reschedule it for several 1117 01:06:54.199 --> 01:06:57.400 days later because William was in too much pain to cooperate. 1118 01:06:58.199 --> 01:07:00.760 There has never been an explanation for why he was 1119 01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:05.280 given a lumbar puncture. Typically, the procedure a spinal tap, 1120 01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:09.719 is conducted to diagnose diseases and is performed under local anesthesia. 1121 01:07:10.199 --> 01:07:15.000 When the polygraph was finally administered, the results were inconclusive. Oddly, though, 1122 01:07:15.119 --> 01:07:18.599 John E. Reid and Fred E Inbach published the findings 1123 01:07:18.599 --> 01:07:21.280 of the polygraph test in their nineteen fifty three textbook 1124 01:07:21.599 --> 01:07:26.559 Lie Detection and Criminal Interrogation and stated murderer William Hyrens 1125 01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:29.039 was questioned about the killing and dismemverment of six year 1126 01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:32.639 old Suzanne Degnan on the basis of the conventional testing theory. 1127 01:07:32.679 --> 01:07:35.719 His response on the card test clearly establishes as an 1128 01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:39.599 innocent person. There was no such statement made about the 1129 01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:43.480 lipstick murders. George and Margaret Hyrons didn't have much money, 1130 01:07:43.679 --> 01:07:46.519 but they managed to hire a team of well connected attorneys, 1131 01:07:46.599 --> 01:07:50.119 the Coglan Brothers, to defend their son. They began taking 1132 01:07:50.159 --> 01:07:52.440 a look at the evidence that had been collected against 1133 01:07:52.440 --> 01:07:57.000 their young client. Handwriting analysis could not link William's handwriting 1134 01:07:57.039 --> 01:08:00.599 to the lipstick message or the ransom note. However, the 1135 01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:04.159 police claimed his fingerprints matched the bloody smudge on the 1136 01:08:04.159 --> 01:08:07.800 door jam of France Brown's apartment. More troublesome, though, was 1137 01:08:07.800 --> 01:08:10.840 the claim that his left little finger matched the print 1138 01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:14.159 on the ransom note, but with only nine points of comparison. 1139 01:08:14.840 --> 01:08:18.439 According to the FBI handbook regarding fingerprint identification, there must 1140 01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:22.319 be twelve points of comparison to indicate a positive identification. 1141 01:08:23.159 --> 01:08:26.079 In this case, all of William's points of comparison were 1142 01:08:26.119 --> 01:08:29.439 all loops, which could be easily matched to sixty five 1143 01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:33.199 percent of the population. The Degnan murder might have been 1144 01:08:33.239 --> 01:08:36.319 in question, but William's attorneys were convinced that he was 1145 01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:39.159 guilty of the lipstick murders. They decided to make it 1146 01:08:39.159 --> 01:08:41.279 their goal to keep the young man from dying in 1147 01:08:41.319 --> 01:08:45.079 the electric chair. State's attorney too, He unsure he could 1148 01:08:45.079 --> 01:08:49.239 get a conviction, sought out cooperation from the Defense Council. Two. 1149 01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:52.359 He offered William a plea bargain. The agreement stated that 1150 01:08:52.439 --> 01:08:55.319 in exchange for confessing to the murders of Josephine Ross, 1151 01:08:55.560 --> 01:08:59.319 Francis Brown, and Suzanne Degnan, William would serve a single 1152 01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:03.479 life Senseentonce. The Coglands urged him to accept the agreement 1153 01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:06.279 with good behavior. They told him he would likely only 1154 01:09:06.319 --> 01:09:08.640 spend about twenty five years in prison and be out 1155 01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:12.560 by the nineteen seventies. With help from his attorneys, William 1156 01:09:12.600 --> 01:09:16.279 began to write his confession. He used the Chicago Tribune 1157 01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:19.039 as a guide, saying, as it turned out, the Tribune's 1158 01:09:19.079 --> 01:09:21.079 article was very helpful as it provided me with a 1159 01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:24.560 lot of details I didn't know. My attorneys rarely changed 1160 01:09:24.600 --> 01:09:27.239 anything outright, but I could tell by their faces when 1161 01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:30.359 I had made a mistake, or they would say, now, Bill, 1162 01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:33.000 is that really the way it happened. Then I would 1163 01:09:33.079 --> 01:09:35.960 change my story because obviously it went against what was 1164 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:40.560 known in the Tribune. William and his parents signed the confession, 1165 01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:42.680 and a date was set for William to make an 1166 01:09:42.680 --> 01:09:46.520 official statement. On July thirtieth, William and his attorneys went 1167 01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:50.319 to Toohey's office, where several reporters were assembled to ask questions. 1168 01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:53.079 This turned out to be a lot different than using 1169 01:09:53.079 --> 01:09:56.199 a newspaper as a guideline to tell the story. William 1170 01:09:56.279 --> 01:09:58.720 tried to cooperate, but he got confused and gave the 1171 01:09:58.760 --> 01:10:03.239 reporter's non commit answers. He suddenly claimed that he couldn't 1172 01:10:03.279 --> 01:10:07.119 remember anything and then got angry. As William later said, 1173 01:10:07.239 --> 01:10:09.760 I asked him if he really wanted the truth. He 1174 01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:12.119 assured me that he did. Two, he had made a 1175 01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:15.560 big deal about hearing the truth. Now, when I was 1176 01:10:15.640 --> 01:10:18.520 forced to lie to save myself, it made me angry. 1177 01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:22.560 So I told them the truth

and everyone got very upset. 1178 01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:26.439 Two he withdrew the previous agreed sentence of one life 1179 01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:29.479 term and made a few minor changes. It stated that 1180 01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:33.000 it would now be three life terms to run consecutively. 1181 01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:36.600 William could escape execution, but he would never get out 1182 01:10:36.600 --> 01:10:39.520 of prison. He told William that if the case went 1183 01:10:39.560 --> 01:10:43.039 to trial, Tooey would seek the death penalty. On the 1184 01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:46.359 advice of his lawyers. William accepted the new plea agreement. 1185 01:10:46.960 --> 01:10:49.680 A public forum was once again held into his office, 1186 01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:53.119 and this time William spoke and answered questions. He even 1187 01:10:53.159 --> 01:10:55.359 went so far as to re enact parts of the 1188 01:10:55.439 --> 01:10:58.640 murders that he had confessed to. He later stated, I 1189 01:10:58.720 --> 01:11:02.960 confessed to save my life, but was he innocent of 1190 01:11:03.039 --> 01:11:06.439 all the murders. Captain William Ahearn, a man who had 1191 01:11:06.439 --> 01:11:09.159 known William for many years and had even gotten him 1192 01:11:09.159 --> 01:11:12.039 out of deeper trouble after his early arrests, later said 1193 01:11:12.079 --> 01:11:14.960 that he never believed that William was the Lipstick killer 1194 01:11:15.560 --> 01:11:19.359 until he saw how familiar he was with Francis Brown's apartment. 1195 01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:24.319 Ahearn could never get past that. On September fourth, with 1196 01:11:24.439 --> 01:11:28.039 Chief Justice Herald G Ward presiding, William admitted his guilt 1197 01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:31.399 on the burglary and murder charges. That night, he tried 1198 01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:34.439 to hang himself in his cell, timed to coincide with 1199 01:11:34.479 --> 01:11:37.159 a shift change by the guards, but he was discovered 1200 01:11:37.159 --> 01:11:40.800 before he died. The following day, Judge Ward formally sentenced 1201 01:11:40.840 --> 01:11:43.880 him to three life terms in prison. As he waited 1202 01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:47.199 to be transferred to Stateville Prison and Joliet, Cook County 1203 01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:50.920 Sheriff Michael Mulkahey asked William if Suzanne Degnen had suffered 1204 01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:54.359 when she was killed. I can't tell you if she suffered, 1205 01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:58.359 Sheriff Mukahey, William answered, I didn't kill her. Tell mister 1206 01:11:58.399 --> 01:12:00.800 Degnan to look after his other daughter, because whoever killed 1207 01:12:00.840 --> 01:12:06.119 Suzanne is still out there. William Hirrens continued to proclaim 1208 01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:09.640 his innocence for the next sixty five years. There's no 1209 01:12:09.760 --> 01:12:13.319 denying that there were many problems with William's arrest, treatment, 1210 01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:17.239 and confession. He was beaten, prevented from seeing a lawyer, 1211 01:12:17.520 --> 01:12:20.680 and subjected to what amounts to torture by the police. 1212 01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:23.720 He also managed to pass a lie detector test, but 1213 01:12:23.760 --> 01:12:25.399 that was not enough to get him off the hook. 1214 01:12:26.239 --> 01:12:30.439 All the evidence against him was circumstantial, including the fingerprint evidence, 1215 01:12:30.560 --> 01:12:33.319 which didn't hold up to the standards set by the FBI. 1216 01:12:34.159 --> 01:12:37.199 It's believed by many historians that William was nothing more 1217 01:12:37.239 --> 01:12:41.000 than a convenient scapegoat, easily framed by the police, who 1218 01:12:41.079 --> 01:12:43.560 were harassed by the public and the press to find 1219 01:12:43.640 --> 01:12:47.359 a killer. Many legal experts don't believe that William would 1220 01:12:47.359 --> 01:12:50.319 have been convicted today. I find it hard to believe 1221 01:12:50.359 --> 01:12:52.560 that he would have been convicted in nineteen forty six, 1222 01:12:52.640 --> 01:12:56.319 but we'll never know. He was pressured into confessing by 1223 01:12:56.319 --> 01:13:00.600 his attorneys, But just because the investigation was orally carried 1224 01:13:00.640 --> 01:13:04.079 out does not mean that William Hyron's wasn't guilty of something. 1225 01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:08.600 It's very likely that William was the so called lipstick killer. 1226 01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:11.760 Those two murders were obviously the work of one man, 1227 01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:14.720 an experienced burglar, who committed murder when he found the 1228 01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:18.159 apartment that he was robbing was occupied. Neither of the 1229 01:13:18.199 --> 01:13:21.920 women were raped, but both were found naked. It might 1230 01:13:21.960 --> 01:13:25.119 be recalled that William's first burglaries involved the stealing of 1231 01:13:25.119 --> 01:13:29.000 women's underwear. If he had masturbated at the lipstick scenes, 1232 01:13:29.199 --> 01:13:32.239 this might explain why the bodies had been washed. He 1233 01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:35.039 had previously left behind evidence of his compulsions when he 1234 01:13:35.079 --> 01:13:38.680 defecated at burglary scenes, did he wash away evidence of 1235 01:13:38.720 --> 01:13:43.479 another compulsion. It's very possible that William killed twice and 1236 01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:46.159 may have been overwhelmed with guilt after the murder of 1237 01:13:46.199 --> 01:13:49.399 Francis Brown, which caused him to leave the lipstick message 1238 01:13:49.439 --> 01:13:52.600 on the wall. He probably would have killed again in 1239 01:13:52.600 --> 01:13:55.039 the case of Evelyn Peterson if his attack had not 1240 01:13:55.079 --> 01:13:58.720 been interrupted by her sister's arrival. His guilt may have 1241 01:13:58.760 --> 01:14:01.000 been the reason that he actually

canest to the murders 1242 01:14:01.199 --> 01:14:05.000 that sent him to prison, But did William Hirans kill 1243 01:14:05.239 --> 01:14:09.600 Suzanne Degnan. The abduction, murder and dismemberment of a little 1244 01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:12.640 girl is a completely different method of murder than that 1245 01:14:12.880 --> 01:14:16.199 used by the Lipstick Killer. If all three crimes had 1246 01:14:16.199 --> 01:14:19.279 not been blamed on William, no one would have ever 1247 01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:22.760 believed they were related. I think it's very possible that 1248 01:14:22.840 --> 01:14:26.439 William was initially framed for Suzanne's murder, which the police 1249 01:14:26.439 --> 01:14:30.439 were under great pressure to solve, and detectives accidentally realized 1250 01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:33.840 they had captured the lipstick killer instead. But with no 1251 01:14:33.880 --> 01:14:36.720 suspects at hand, why not send him to prison for 1252 01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:42.199 all three Suzanne's murder by that time seemed unsolvable. It 1253 01:14:42.279 --> 01:14:44.760 wasn't hard to pin it on William. He'd been in 1254 01:14:44.800 --> 01:14:47.439 the neighborhood around the time the little girl was kidnapped, 1255 01:14:47.520 --> 01:14:51.039 as evidenced by the burglary at the nearby apartment. However, 1256 01:14:51.119 --> 01:14:54.479 this was probably a coincidence. William didn't live far away, 1257 01:14:54.800 --> 01:14:58.039 and Edgewater was essentially his favorite neighborhood for break ins. 1258 01:14:58.920 --> 01:15:01.880 There was little to him to the crime other than 1259 01:15:01.920 --> 01:15:04.720 the smudged fingerprint that should have never been accepted by 1260 01:15:04.760 --> 01:15:09.039 the FBI laboratory and a very questionable eyewitness. The man 1261 01:15:09.079 --> 01:15:11.560 who later claimed to see William near the Degnen Hm 1262 01:15:11.920 --> 01:15:14.279 was a twenty five year old soldier on furlough named 1263 01:15:14.319 --> 01:15:17.880 George E. Subgrunsky. On the day after the kidnapping, he 1264 01:15:17.880 --> 01:15:19.800 had been the one who told the police that he 1265 01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:22.239 had seen a man described as one hundred and seventy 1266 01:15:22.279 --> 01:15:25.760 pounds about thirty five years old, carrying a shopping bag 1267 01:15:25.880 --> 01:15:28.319 and wearing a light colored hat and a dark overcoat 1268 01:15:28.600 --> 01:15:31.640 walking away from the house. It was dark, so he 1269 01:15:31.640 --> 01:15:34.399 could not make out the man's facial features. When he 1270 01:15:34.439 --> 01:15:37.319 was shown a photograph of William Hirns on July eleven, 1271 01:15:37.520 --> 01:15:40.399 the Chicago Daily News said he was unable to identify 1272 01:15:40.399 --> 01:15:43.800 the man as Hirans. Five days later, though, at a 1273 01:15:43.840 --> 01:15:47.399 criminal hearing, Subgrunsky pointed a finger at William and said, 1274 01:15:47.560 -->

01:15:51.680 that's the man I saw. The police, anxious to find 1275 01:15:51.760 --> 01:15:54.000 someone who could put William at the scene of the crime, 1276 01:15:54.399 --> 01:15:57.720 decided to ignore the fact that Subgrunsky was initially unable 1277 01:15:57.720 --> 01:16:01.560 to identify William. They went with the new identification instead. 1278 01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:06.159 William was never the main suspect in Suzanne's murder. That 1279 01:16:06.399 --> 01:16:09.680 was forty two year old drifter Richard Russell Thomas, who 1280 01:16:09.720 --> 01:16:11.880 was passing through town at the time to the murder. 1281 01:16:12.680 --> 01:16:16.800 Just before William's arrest, Chicago police were interrogating Thomas in Arizona. 1282 01:16:17.560 --> 01:16:21.039 Police handwriting expert Charles b Arnold had of the forgery 1283 01:16:21.079 --> 01:16:24.680 detail of the Phoenix Police noted similarities between the handwritten 1284 01:16:24.760 --> 01:16:28.199 Degnant ransom note and Thomas's handwriting. He had been the 1285 01:16:28.199 --> 01:16:32.920 one who suggested that Chicago detectives investigate Thomas. I believe 1286 01:16:33.000 --> 01:16:36.760 that it's very likely Thomas was Suzanne's killer. Not only 1287 01:16:36.760 --> 01:16:39.159 did he confess to the crime, but he had previously 1288 01:16:39.199 --> 01:16:42.720 been convicted of attempted extortion using a ransom note that 1289 01:16:42.800 --> 01:16:46.239 threatened the kidnapping of a young girl. Many of the 1290 01:16:46.279 --> 01:16:48.920 phrases in the extortion note were similar to those in 1291 01:16:48.960 --> 01:16:52.640 the ransom letter. When he confessed to Suzanne's murder, he 1292 01:16:52.720 --> 01:16:55.640 was in jail awaiting sentencing for molesting his thirteen year 1293 01:16:55.680 --> 01:16:58.560 old daughter. He also had a history of violence, and 1294 01:16:58.640 --> 01:17:00.800 had been arrested for beating his wife life and molesting 1295 01:17:00.840 --> 01:17:03.800 two of his three children. He was a nurse who 1296 01:17:03.880 --> 01:17:06.279 was known to pose as a surgeon and often bragged 1297 01:17:06.279 --> 01:17:09.520 about how he stole surgical supplies from a hospital, all 1298 01:17:09.560 --> 01:17:13.039 of which matched the profile the police had created. This 1299 01:17:13.199 --> 01:17:15.840 was a man who certainly had the knowledge to dismember 1300 01:17:15.880 --> 01:17:18.319 a body. He also spent a lot of time at 1301 01:17:18.319 --> 01:17:20.880 the car agency in Edgewater that was right across the 1302 01:17:20.920 --> 01:17:23.600 street from where parts of Suzanne's body were found in 1303 01:17:23.640 --> 01:17:28.439 a sewer. But when William was arrested, investigating officers were 1304 01:17:28.439 --> 01:17:31.520 called off to Thomas case, treating his confession as the 1305 01:17:31.600 --> 01:17:35.520 ravings of a madman. Thomas served time in Arizona, then 1306 01:17:35.680 -->

01:17:40.119 faded into obscurity, eventually dying in Tennessee in nineteen seventy four. 1307 01:17:40.760 --> 01:17:43.239 His prison record, along with most of the evidence of 1308 01:17:43.279 --> 01:17:46.920 his interrogation regarding the Degnen murder, has been either lost 1309 01:17:47.159 --> 01:17:51.520 or destroyed over time. But even if William did not 1310 01:17:51.640 --> 01:17:53.960 kill Suzanne, he still deserved to go to prison for 1311 01:17:54.000 --> 01:17:56.960 the other crimes he committed and to which he confessed. 1312 01:17:57.680 --> 01:18:01.079 There were no additional lipstick murders after William went to prison, 1313 01:18:01.159 --> 01:18:04.520 which makes him the likely suspect in those cases, no 1314 01:18:04.640 --> 01:18:07.760 matter what he might have claimed. Later on. In nineteen 1315 01:18:07.800 --> 01:18:10.720 fifty four, the Illinois Supreme Court stated that the authorities 1316 01:18:10.800 --> 01:18:14.800 violated William's rights while conducting the investigation, but the court 1317 01:18:14.880 --> 01:18:17.640 also said that he chose to plead guilty to avoid 1318 01:18:17.680 --> 01:18:21.119 a possible death sentence, where he could have challenged the violations. 1319 01:18:21.680 --> 01:18:24.800 It was decided that his conviction and sentence would stand. 1320 01:18:25.920 --> 01:18:29.920 William Hyrons never saw freedom, even though his sentence allowed 1321 01:18:29.920 --> 01:18:32.760 for the possibility of parole. But in spite of being 1322 01:18:32.800 --> 01:18:35.439 a model prisoner and the first in Illinois to earn 1323 01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:38.680 a college degree behind bars, his parole was turned down 1324 01:18:38.840 --> 01:18:42.279 more than two dozen times. In nineteen ninety eight, he 1325 01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:45.840 was transferred to a minimum security prison in Dixon, Illinois, 1326 01:18:45.920 --> 01:18:49.520 and moved onto the hospital ward. He was suffering from diabetes, 1327 01:18:49.600 --> 01:18:52.520 which had limited his eyesight and forced him into a wheelchair. 1328 01:18:53.119 --> 01:18:55.079 In two thousand and two, a petition was filed on 1329 01:18:55.159 --> 01:18:59.159 Hyan's behalf seeking clemency. It not only cited doubts about 1330 01:18:59.159 --> 01:19:02.119 his guilt and also his model behavior while in prison. 1331 01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:06.720 The appeal was eventually denied. In two thousand and seven, 1332 01:19:06.840 --> 01:19:09.880 his parole was denied again. A member of the Illinois 1333 01:19:09.880 --> 01:19:13.279 Prisoner Review Board, Thomas Johnson, made sure that William knew 1334 01:19:13.319 --> 01:19:16.159 he would never be released from prison. God will forgive you, 1335 01:19:16.279 --> 01:19:20.720 he said, but the state won't. William Hirrons died in 1336 01:19:20.720 --> 01:19:24.520 prison on March fifth, twenty thirteen. He was the longest 1337 01:19:24.560 --> 01:19:27.840 serving prisoner in the history of the state of Illinois. 1338 01:19:28.520 --> 01:19:31.600 As far as Suzanne Degnan's remaining family members were concerned, 1339 01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:34.279 the death of William Hirns brought an end to a 1340 01:19:34.319 --> 01:19:37.159 tragedy that had been haunting them for decades. They had 1341 01:19:37.199 --> 01:19:40.000 always believed the police had no reason to doubt the 1342 01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:43.439 fact that William had killed the little girl. Jim Degnan, 1343 01:19:43.560 --> 01:19:46.359 born ten months after his sister had been killed, attended 1344 01:19:46.359 --> 01:19:49.920 William's parole hearings for twenty nine years, determined that he 1345 01:19:49.960 --> 01:19:53.079 would never get out of prison. Jim said that his 1346 01:19:53.159 --> 01:19:55.520 parents never spoke about Suzanne when he was a boy. 1347 01:19:55.920 --> 01:19:58.239 He didn't learn about how she had died until a 1348 01:19:58.279 --> 01:20:00.479 classmate told him about the murder when he was in 1349 01:20:00.520 --> 01:20:03.479 fifth or sixth grade, prompting him to ask his parents 1350 01:20:03.479 --> 01:20:07.159 about it. Once he knew what had happened, things that 1351 01:20:07.199 --> 01:20:11.000 he had seen throughout his life suddenly made sense. His 1352 01:20:11.079 --> 01:20:14.000 mother had installed bars on his bedroom window when they 1353 01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:16.680 moved into a new apartment several years after the killing. 1354 01:20:17.279 --> 01:20:20.119 She had also never allowed him to buy black pants. 1355 01:20:20.479 --> 01:20:23.399 She had always associated them with William Hirns because he 1356 01:20:23.439 --> 01:20:26.399 had worn them every day in court. Jim said that 1357 01:20:26.439 --> 01:20:28.920 he began researching the case when he was in his twenties, 1358 01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:32.880 after William began claiming that he was innocent. After examining 1359 01:20:32.920 --> 01:20:35.319 some of the evidence and speaking with the authorities and 1360 01:20:35.359 --> 01:20:39.399 a retired judge, he was satisfied that Hirens was guilty. 1361 01:20:39.479 --> 01:20:42.319 He said that William's supporters had decades to prove his innocence, 1362 01:20:42.520 --> 01:20:46.960 but never could. Suzanne's older sister, Betty recalled writing to 1363 01:20:46.960 --> 01:20:49.239 school in a police car for a time after the 1364 01:20:49.319 --> 01:20:52.079 murder because of the attention that surrounded the case and 1365 01:20:52.199 --> 01:20:55.159 fear of a killer at large. She never forgot her 1366 01:20:55.199 --> 01:20:59.159 sister or her murder, but always believed that William was 1367 01:20:59.199 --> 01:21:02.159 guilty no matter matter what he claimed. She wanted him 1368 01:21:02.159 --> 01:21:05.640 in prison, although not for retribution. She helped to keep 1369 01:21:05.680 --> 01:21:07.880 him locked up by attending his parole hearings out of 1370 01:21:07.920 -->

01:21:09.880 fear that he might get out and hurt someone else. 1371 01:21:10.439 --> 01:21:14.479 That was something that she just couldn't live with. Were 1372 01:21:14.520 --> 01:21:18.560 those who believed William Hyron's killed Suzanne correct or Was 1373 01:21:18.600 --> 01:21:21.720 there more to the story than anyone knew? There was 1374 01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:24.680 no question that many problems exist when it comes to 1375 01:21:24.760 --> 01:21:28.239 linking William to Suzanne's murder, not the least of which 1376 01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:32.560 a much more believable suspect in Richard Russell Thomas. Did 1377 01:21:32.600 --> 01:21:35.800 Thomas get away with murder? As the killing of Suzanne 1378 01:21:35.840 --> 01:21:41.920 Degnan remained unofficially unsolved after all these years, perhaps because 1379 01:21:41.920 --> 01:21:44.199 if the stories from those who claim to have encountered 1380 01:21:44.239 --> 01:21:47.720 her ghosts are true, the tragic little girl may not 1381 01:21:47.960 --> 01:21:52.720 rest in peace. I first wrote about Suzanne Degnan in 1382 01:21:52.720 --> 01:21:54.520 two thousand and nine, when I was working on a 1383 01:21:54.520 --> 01:21:58.079 series of books about Chicago crime and murder. The publisher 1384 01:21:58.079 --> 01:22:00.960 of the series arranged several books signings for me around 1385 01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:03.119 the city, and I met a lot of interesting people, 1386 01:22:03.520 --> 01:22:06.239 many of whom had stories to tell about incidents or 1387 01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:09.359 people that were featured in the books. These books weren't 1388 01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:13.520 about ghosts, but yet sometimes the stories people came to 1389 01:22:13.560 --> 01:22:17.560 tell me were about ghosts anyway, and that's how I 1390 01:22:17.600 --> 01:22:21.399 first heard about Suzanne's ghost I was doing a signing 1391 01:22:21.520 --> 01:22:24.239 at a bookstore in the Uptown neighborhood when a lady 1392 01:22:24.279 --> 01:22:26.960 came in and purchased a book. She knew that most 1393 01:22:26.960 --> 01:22:29.800 of my writings were about ghosts and hauntings, and she 1394 01:22:29.840 --> 01:22:31.760 told me that she had a ghost story about one 1395 01:22:31.800 --> 01:22:34.119 of the cases that was in one of the crime titles. 1396 01:22:34.800 --> 01:22:37.279 She explained that she had once lived in an apartment 1397 01:22:37.359 --> 01:22:40.479 at fifty nine oh one North Winthrop Avenue where the 1398 01:22:40.520 --> 01:22:44.119 infamous murderer Room had been located. It was the place 1399 01:22:44.119 --> 01:22:47.439 where the police believed Suzanne had been dismembered after her death. 1400 01:22:48.720 --> 01:22:50.640 When she had lived there, it was no longer a 1401 01:22:50.720 --> 01:22:54.880 laundry room, before bloodstained basins had vanished long ago, but 1402 01:22:54.960 --> 01:22:57.119 she did live on the basement floor just down a 1403 01:22:57.159 --> 01:23:00.000 hallway from the room, and months before she found out 1404 01:23:00.159 --> 01:23:02.640 what had occurred there, she came to believe that the 1405 01:23:02.720 --> 01:23:06.720 room was haunted. It had started with the sounds. She 1406 01:23:06.800 --> 01:23:09.199 said that on many nights when she came home from 1407 01:23:09.199 --> 01:23:12.119 work she was then a bartender in Uptown, she would 1408 01:23:12.119 --> 01:23:14.960 hear banging noises coming from down the dark corridor that 1409 01:23:15.039 --> 01:23:18.680 led from her apartment to the former laundry room. Sometimes, 1410 01:23:18.720 --> 01:23:22.399 she said, they sounded like footsteps. She didn't see anyone, though, 1411 01:23:22.520 --> 01:23:24.199 and when she turned on the light in the hall, 1412 01:23:24.520 --> 01:23:28.159 they usually stopped. She was willing to dismiss the whole 1413 01:23:28.199 --> 01:23:32.800 thing to an overactive late night imagination until she saw 1414 01:23:32.840 --> 01:23:36.199 the little girl. One night, she came home and was 1415 01:23:36.199 --> 01:23:38.399 getting ready to open her door when she saw a 1416 01:23:38.439 --> 01:23:41.600 movement down the corridor. The light was dim, but she 1417 01:23:41.640 --> 01:23:44.399 could see a young girl standing there looking at her. 1418 01:23:45.039 --> 01:23:48.159 The girl had blonde hair, a pale face with slightly 1419 01:23:48.279 --> 01:23:52.199 chubby cheeks, and was wearing a pale knee length dress. 1420 01:23:52.279 --> 01:23:56.680 She didn't move, she didn't say anything. She just stood 1421 01:23:56.680 --> 01:24:01.319 there staring. The witness called out. She told me that 1422 01:24:01.399 --> 01:24:04.319 she certainly didn't think she was seeing a ghost. She 1423 01:24:04.359 --> 01:24:06.600 assumed it was a neighbor's child, but one that was 1424 01:24:06.640 --> 01:24:09.760 wandering the apartment building halls long after she should have 1425 01:24:09.800 --> 01:24:12.560 been in bed, with her keys dangling in the lock. 1426 01:24:12.840 --> 01:24:15.159 The young woman started to walk toward the little girl, 1427 01:24:15.880 --> 01:24:20.920 and then the little girl vanished. Startled, the witness said 1428 01:24:20.920 --> 01:24:23.439 that she let out a small scream and pushed through 1429 01:24:23.439 --> 01:24:26.479 the door into her apartment, too terrified to look out 1430 01:24:26.520 --> 01:24:29.039 into the hallway again. I don't know why I was 1431 01:24:29.079 --> 01:24:32.319 so scared, she told me. It just upset me very much. 1432 01:24:33.760 --> 01:24:35.920 The witness told me that she never saw the little 1433 01:24:35.920 --> 01:24:40.159 girl again, but her terror over the sighting turned to curiosity. 1434 01:24:40.760 --> 01:24:43.239 That's how she found out what made her building and 1435 01:24:43.279 --> 01:24:46.439 the laundry room down the hall so notorious. In nineteen 1436 01:24:46.479 --> 01:24:50.399 forty six, she

was convinced by photographs that she found 1437 01:24:50.520 --> 01:24:53.800 that the little girl in the hallway was Suzanne Degnan. 1438 01:24:54.560 --> 01:24:56.880 She only lived in the apartment building for another few 1439 01:24:56.920 --> 01:24:59.439 months after that her lease was up. She assured me, 1440 01:24:59.520 --> 01:25:02.199 not because she was afraid, and she did sometimes hear 1441 01:25:02.239 --> 01:25:05.159 the noises and the footsteps, but she learned to tune 1442 01:25:05.159 --> 01:25:08.800 them out. She never saw the ghost that she believed 1443 01:25:08.920 --> 01:25:12.079 was Suzanne again, but she had heard that others had. 1444 01:25:12.760 --> 01:25:16.159 Her curiosity and fascination with the story of Suzanne's murder 1445 01:25:16.439 --> 01:25:19.239 never really went away, and she spoke with others who 1446 01:25:19.239 --> 01:25:22.000 had lived in the basement of the apartment building. They 1447 01:25:22.000 --> 01:25:25.119 were sure it was haunted because they had also seen 1448 01:25:25.199 --> 01:25:28.800 the ghost of a little blondehaired girl in the basement hallway. 1449 01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:33.760 I wonder who she is, they sometimes asked the witness, 1450 01:25:33.800 --> 01:25:36.600 and she always replied with a tragic story of a 1451 01:25:36.640 --> 01:25:56.319 little girl who died long, long before her time. Thanks 1452 01:25:56.319 --> 01:25:59.000 for listening. If you like to show, please share it 1453 01:25:59.039 --> 01:26:02.039 with someone you know who the paranormal or strained stories, 1454 01:26:02.399 --> 01:26:07.039 true crime, monsters, or unsolved mysteries like you do. All 1455 01:26:07.079 --> 01:26:09.880 stories in Weird Darkness are purported to be true unless 1456 01:26:09.880 --> 01:26:12.880 stated otherwise, and you can find source links or links 1457 01:26:12.920 --> 01:26:16.640 to the authors in the show notes. Both stories, the 1458 01:26:16.680 --> 01:26:19.560 Disappearance of the Solder Children and the Bloody Murder and 1459 01:26:19.720 --> 01:26:23.039 Ghost of Suzanne Degnan, were written by Troy Taylor from 1460 01:26:23.039 --> 01:26:27.319 his book Suffer the Children American Horrors, Homicides and Hauntings. 1461 01:26:27.880 --> 01:26:29.880 A link to the book is in the show notes, 1462 01:26:29.880 --> 01:26:34.600 including an audiobook version narrated by yours Truly. Weird Darkness 1463 01:26:34.680 --> 01:26:38.399 is a production and trademark of Marler House Productions. And 1464 01:26:38.439 --> 01:26:40.680 now that we're coming out of the dark, I'll leave 1465 01:26:40.760 --> 01:26:45.359 you with a little light. Galicians six verse two carry 1466 01:26:45.399 --> 01:26:48.680 each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill 1467 01:26:48.800 --> 01:26:52.760 the law of Christ. And a final thought, the most 1468 01:26:52.800 --> 01:26:56.760 beautiful things in life are not just things. They're people 1469 01:26:57.119 --> 01:27:02.319 in places, memories and pictures, their feelings and moments and 1470 01:27:02.439 --> 01:27:08.239 smiles and laughter. I'm Darren Marler. Thanks for joining me 1471 01:27:09.039 --> 01:27:10.199 in the Weird Darkness.