How can understanding emotions create stronger trust?의 전체 녹취록

also it tends to diminish trust, because the person who feels entitled is always looking for the things that they haven't received. 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:43.069 We're not dealing with somebody who is really looking at you know, facts or what is, or agreements, but is really caught up in this idea of you know the world owes me, and so I'm just going to keep checking to see that my glass is filling up, because that's what I expect in life, and I think that those people will not feel trust in a system or a leader or the world, because often they're not getting as much as they think they should be getting. 00:06:43.069 --> 00:06:44.572 So that's an example. 00:06:44.572 --> 00:06:47.619 And on the other side, there's some that I think are great indicators of trust, as much as they think they should be getting. 00:06:47.619 --> 00:06:48.079 So that's an example. 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:58.369 And on the other side, there's some that I think are great indicators of trust and some, like I said, in this shaky zone where we may not even be moving one direction or another, but the trust is just not very solid. 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:13.692 So could you give us an example, or a couple of examples, of emotions in those two categories, those that generate or reveal trust, and then those that generate, or rather reveal kind of trust? 00:07:13.692 --> 00:07:14.880 That's questionable. 00:07:14.880 --> 00:07:16.665 It's shaky Shaky. 00:07:17.185 --> 00:07:18.988 Yeah, shaky, shaky trust. 00:07:18.988 --> 00:07:26.973 It's interesting that in the trust model that I think the three of us use is that one of the components is an emotion. 00:07:26.973 --> 00:07:33.389 Sincerity, for me, is an emotion, and so, of course, when somebody is sincere, what do you know? 00:07:33.389 --> 00:07:47.744 You still may not trust them completely because there's the other components of competence and reliability, but you have a piece of the puzzle and reliability but you have a piece of the puzzle. 00:07:47.744 --> 00:07:56.247 So, when somebody is very sincere, they're already partway there to either revealing trust because they're sharing with you things that they're just they're sharing things with you without a filter. 00:07:56.247 --> 00:08:03.302 You know, what I think is what I'm sharing with you, it's what I'm speaking, it's what I'm telling you, and so there's no hidden agenda. 00:08:03.302 --> 00:08:06.720 And I think that that is a really powerful emotion. 00:08:06.819 --> 00:08:17.855 Because, if you think about it, what if somebody, whether intentionally or not, is insincere and lacks the ability to speak in an unfiltered way about what they're thinking? 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:25.754 Well, we can then move into one of those emotions in the shaky zone, which could be skepticism. 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:33.293 Let's say, well, I just don't know if this person is really telling me what they think and believe or not. 00:08:34.100 --> 00:08:58.865 So insincerity could be in

that shaky zone as well, and insincerity is interesting to me because I've known people, I've coached people who are very sincere about being sincere, but they're not competent to be sincere, meaning they think they're sincere or they want to be sincere and they're sincere about that, but they don't have the ability to simply say what they're thinking. 00:08:58.865 --> 00:09:09.793 It's not the case in my experience that everybody is capable of sincerity, because some people have had experiences where it was dangerous for them to be sincere. 00:09:09.793 --> 00:09:18.464 For instance, they lived in a home where if they said really how they felt, they got punished for it, or in a culture or, you know, in an organization. 00:09:18.464 --> 00:09:37.410 So I think that I can remember in the past having judgments about people who were not sincere or who were insincere, and then one day I realized, oh, you know what, that just may be how they survived for years, but still it has an impact on trust, no matter whether it's intentional or unintentional. 00:09:37.991 --> 00:09:38.854 Oh, this is juicy. 00:09:38.854 --> 00:09:57.186 So this has me thinking about a current team that I'm working with, that there is definitely stuff happening under the table that they are currently unwilling to put on top of the table to talk about, and I can feel it. 00:09:57.186 --> 00:10:06.421 There is this level of not being completely transparent, and so I think you know that ties possibly to some psychological safety. 00:10:06.421 --> 00:10:18.071 It could also be past experience where it wasn't safe for me to reveal there were unintended consequences that were not pleasant, and so I'm not going to do that again. 00:10:18.071 --> 00:10:28.639 But you know yeah, you're pointing to whether it's intentional or unintentional, there is an impact to the collaboration and the ease and flow of the relationship. 00:10:29.562 --> 00:10:31.586 And things like that and trust in general. 00:10:31.586 --> 00:10:34.212 I've moved beyond thinking of these as moral issues. 00:10:34.212 --> 00:10:35.282 It's just okay. 00:10:35.282 --> 00:10:39.432 This is about probably, like you shared before, it's about interaction. 00:10:39.432 --> 00:10:45.572 It's about our ability to interact fluidly, you know, in a way that cares for the interaction in the relationship. 00:10:46.620 --> 00:10:51.852 Yeah, in other words, trust is really a behavioral rather than moral issue. 00:10:52.620 --> 00:10:58.221 Yeah, I always think of it as a risk assessment tool and I think that's what those people on your team are doing. 00:10:58.221 --> 00:11:09.986 They're saying, ooh, it feels a little risky to me to say what I really think, because even though the leader is saying yeah, yeah, yeah, you can say anything you want, it's not going to be used against you. 00:11:09.986 --> 00:11:14.644 If they don't believe that, then that's distrust, right. 00:11:14.644 --> 00:11:16.408 They are unable to share. 00:11:16.408 --> 00:11:22.251 And the curious thing to me is it's not necessarily about that leader or other people on the team. 00:11:22.251 --> 00:11:34.587 Again, it could be something they learned growing up and that was their way of surviving and their way of getting through the world was to not say things they really felt or cared about. 00:11:35.129 --> 00:11:45.071 So I think one of the things that is helpful in understanding trust from my perspective is it doesn't matter how trustworthy I think I am. 00:11:45.071 --> 00:11:46.813 I could be 100%. 00:11:46.813 --> 00:11:50.067 I could be absolutely sincere, confident, reliable. 00:11:50.067 --> 00:11:52.030 That doesn't mean people will trust me. 00:11:52.030 --> 00:11:57.129 Them extending trust will depend on them as much as it'll depend on me. 00:11:57.129 --> 00:12:05.017 So if somebody doesn't trust me or the other side, if I don't trust somebody, it's because we don't align on these things. 00:12:05.717 --> 00:12:12.283 And how do we have a conversation about that, and is that something that's important to us, that we want to do, or do we not want to do it? 00:12:12.764 --> 00:12:17.173 Yeah, or is there even enough trust to have a conversation about trust? 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:18.062 Yes, right. 00:12:18.524 --> 00:12:21.092 Yes, because sometimes there is not yeah. 00:12:21.433 --> 00:12:23.320 You talk about trust itself being an emotion. 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:24.342 I think yeah. 00:12:24.342 --> 00:12:38.620 And then I think there are also other emotions that kind of run with trust, the same with distrust or that other one, the shaky, maybe suspicion or skepticism would be a way of talking about that from an emotional perspective. 00:12:38.620 --> 00:12:44.293 But what other emotions do you find tend to run with trust, if you will? 00:12:44.956 --> 00:12:45.918 Okay, yeah, lovely. 00:12:45.918 --> 00:12:50.669 Well, when people are talking about themselves, you know, do they trust themselves? 00:12:50.669 --> 00:12:52.321 They often use the word confidence. 00:12:53.143 --> 00:12:53.322 Yeah. 00:12:53.744 --> 00:12:56.288 Am I confident in my abilities? 00:12:56.288 --> 00:12:58.552 Am I confident in my knowledge? 00:12:58.552 --> 00:13:07.302 And so, for me, confidence is related to trust, and this is a piece that's interesting to me about the etymology of emotions. 00:13:07.302 --> 00:13:17.452 You know the root, where they come from, because trust comes from a Northern European language, anglo-saxon or Old English, but confidence comes from Latin. 00:13:17.452 --> 00:13:31.927 So what's interesting is they both address the same aspect of us as human beings and they're very similar for that reason, I think, because they come from different linguistic roots. 00:13:32.615 --> 00:13:40.710 So many people do align or sometimes say that confidence and trust are synonyms. 00:13:40.710 --> 00:14:10.605 Confidence and trust are synonyms, but when I'm working with people, one of

the emotions that they don't tend to think about when they talk about trust is the emotion I call faith, and I think faith can be a religious concept, obviously, but I think of faith as an emotion, and as an emotion, what my story is, what my belief is, what I say to myself, is I choose to believe, even without evidence. 00:14:10.605 --> 00:14:17.419 So I don't have any evidence that this is the case or this is true, but I still choose to believe it. 00:14:17.419 --> 00:14:29.927 And so faith for me is different than trust, because trust is based on things like your history of reliability and a measure or assessment of your competence. 00:14:29.927 --> 00:14:46.578 So for me it's quite different, and the value of faith is that I can choose to believe even without any evidence that something is true, and of course that's what makes faith so powerful sometimes. 00:14:46.578 --> 00:14:48.403 I mean, you can think about it. 00:14:48.403 --> 00:14:50.067 Do you believe in God? 00:14:50.067 --> 00:14:57.048 I can give you all the reasons in the world, all the statistics, all the data, that there is no such thing as a God. 00:14:57.048 --> 00:15:00.980 But if you believe there's a God, there's a God, and vice versa. 00:15:00.980 --> 00:15:10.918 If you believe there's not a God, I can give you all the evidence or data that I can dig up and you'll still say yep, well, that's really interesting, but I don't believe there's a God. 00:15:10.918 --> 00:15:18.519 So faith is really powerful in that sense, and I think that it can be an extremely helpful tool. 00:15:18.961 --> 00:15:29.985 I know, for a while I put it as a screensaver and the question I put to myself to read every day was what would I do if I was acting from faith as an emotion? 00:15:29.985 --> 00:15:33.198 Because it was a time in my life when I had a lot of doubt. 00:15:33.198 --> 00:15:36.049 Oh well, doubt goes in that middle column. 00:15:36.049 --> 00:15:38.576 Doubt is, you know, shaky assessment of trust. 00:15:38.576 --> 00:15:50.568 I'm not sure, and so for me it was really helpful because it helped me make some choices that I didn't have evidence were the right choice or would be even a good choice. 00:15:50.568 --> 00:16:09.767 But I needed to make a choice and I needed to move forward in certain parts in this case of my business, of you know, writing books and creating courses because I didn't know, I didn't know that one day that Hila would have this on her sitting in her office on the desk. 00:16:09.767 --> 00:16:13.600 I didn't know that I had no evidence that it was going to be of value. 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:18.839 So faith helped me focus and get it done and put it out in the world. 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:25.455 And of course, now I do have evidence, but then I didn't out in the world and, of course, now I do have evidence, but then I didn't. 00:16:25.455 --> 00:16:35.913 So I wonder what kind of role faith plays in building trust, because we may start from a place where we

don't really have any evidence that this person is trustworthy or will be trustworthy. 00:16:35.913 --> 00:16:38.399 So we're like you said, we're taking a risk. 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:57.184 We're risking something that's valuable to us and taking the risk that making it vulnerable to that person's actions, what they're going to do, so having faith that they will treat what we value well, can get us to the point where we have evidence or not. 00:16:57.184 --> 00:16:59.149 But yeah, okay. 00:16:59.855 --> 00:17:02.722 Yeah, no, I think it's a lovely speculation. 00:17:02.722 --> 00:17:06.817 Let's imagine that Hila and I are in a plane together. 00:17:06.817 --> 00:17:09.583 We're flying somewhere, small plane. 00:17:09.583 --> 00:17:11.666 The pilot passes out. 00:17:11.666 --> 00:17:17.321 Hila says to me don't worry, dan, I can land this plane, I got this thing. 00:17:17.823 --> 00:17:23.008 Well, really, what's going to drive me to support her to land the plane is faith. 00:17:23.008 --> 00:17:28.224 It's not trust, because I might trust her in lots of other domains, but she never landed a plane. 00:17:28.224 --> 00:17:29.147 I was on before. 00:17:29.147 --> 00:17:31.420 But faith is exactly that. 00:17:31.420 --> 00:17:35.919 I would say I don't have any evidence that you can do this, but I choose to believe you can. 00:17:35.919 --> 00:17:51.750 But exactly what you said in the end, it will reveal whether trust was wise or not, because if she lands the plane and we get done and we can go have a coffee together, fantastic. 00:17:51.750 --> 00:18:00.804 If the plane crashes, then I'll realize well, that wasn't the best belief in the world, right, but it did come from faith, right, they didn't have any evidence, but they still chose to believe. 00:18:00.804 --> 00:18:04.665 So I think trust is more, let's say, reliable. 00:18:05.195 --> 00:18:27.662 In trust, we are measuring things, we're assessing things, we're doing things, we're building a case that I'm not risking excessively or beyond my willingness to risk for something, because the trust approach would be, I would say to Hila well, show me your flight certificate, you know. 00:18:27.662 --> 00:18:33.199 Show me your CV that says I got 20 years of landing small planes in emergency situations. 00:18:33.199 --> 00:18:42.518 Give me the stats on how many times you've done this safely and how many times you haven't, and then look me in the eye and tell me that all of this is true and, yes, you really can land this plane. 00:18:42.518 --> 00:18:43.721 I want sincerity. 00:18:43.721 --> 00:18:47.509 That's what I would do if I was trying to build trust in that situation. 00:18:47.509 --> 00:19:04.974 I probably don't have time to do that, we probably wouldn't be able to do that, and so, in that case, I think what you're saying, charles, is exactly right is that sometimes faith, it can be a stepping stone to the opportunity to build trust or to reveal that trust is not prudent. 00:19:05.997 --> 00:19:12.288 And so I also wonder about faith tipping over into blind trust. 00:19:12.288 --> 00:19:25.750 Where trusting and trusting by ignoring evidence that we should be paying attention to, that this person is not trustworthy, yeah. 00:19:26.134 --> 00:19:27.941 Well, it can, and that's a great question. 00:19:27.941 --> 00:19:34.563 Is what I'm acting out of faith, or is it naivete, or is it denial? 00:19:35.434 --> 00:19:35.836 Denial. 00:19:35.836 --> 00:19:38.623 Yeah, Blind trust for me is all about denial. 00:19:38.623 --> 00:19:40.126 I don't want to look and see. 00:19:40.714 --> 00:19:44.938 And naivete is just simply I want it to be that way, whether it's that way or not. 00:19:44.938 --> 00:19:49.778 So if life was perfect, that's the way it would be, and I'm going to believe it's that way. 00:19:49.778 --> 00:19:52.807 I'm going to be Pollyanna in this case. 00:19:52.807 --> 00:20:00.048 So I think that these are all really related in some way to the emotion of trust. 00:20:00.954 --> 00:20:08.839 So one of the things that I tend to talk about with people and ask about is including emotions of trust. 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:19.967 What runs with it seem to be emotions like generosity, what we might tend to think of as positive emotions that run with trust. 00:20:19.967 --> 00:20:23.805 If you will that, if I trust you, those emotions show up. 00:20:23.805 --> 00:20:26.599 I want to be generous towards you. 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:31.008 I want to be Kindness, kindness, yeah, I want to be kind, yes. 00:20:31.469 --> 00:20:35.404 Yeah, I think gratitude can go in that bucket. 00:20:35.404 --> 00:20:40.311 Certainly care can be in that bucket Compassion. 00:20:40.953 --> 00:20:44.021 Yeah, and I think they're self-reinforcing. 00:20:44.021 --> 00:20:52.689 When there's trust and those other emotions show up, it reinforces the trust that's getting built or has been built. 00:20:52.689 --> 00:20:54.498 But I'm curious about that. 00:20:54.498 --> 00:20:55.500 What's your thought on that? 00:20:56.281 --> 00:21:03.083 Yeah, well, I think those incline us to trust because we feel safe with a person. 00:21:03.083 --> 00:21:15.948 You know, if they're being generous, then they're showing they care for me, that I'm important to them in some way, and so they're extending themselves to me and in a sense they're building, I think, a foundation for trust. 00:21:15.948 --> 00:21:31.876 So I think a lot of those emotions that's the way they play the one that I always find curious is the one that seems like it might be in there, but it's a little bit slippery is affection, and so affection is, you know, we like people. 00:21:31.876 --> 00:21:40.178 But what I find sometimes and I have had this experience in my life, for instance as a leader well, I can make choices and decisions about people based on trust. 00:21:40.178 --> 00:21:47.884 Well, I can make choices and decisions about people based on trust, sincerity, competence, reliability or on

affection, because I like this person. 00:21:47.884 --> 00:21:51.686 And I think that we confuse those sometimes. 00:21:51.686 --> 00:21:58.192 I know I certainly did as a leader, where I made choices sometimes about the people I hired. 00:21:58.192 --> 00:22:21.017 Maybe in the trust category there was sincerity, or I assessed sincerity, but partly sometimes I hired people because I liked them, not because they were competent, not because they had shown reliability, and the problem with that is that then you get a group of people who are not particularly competent, they're not particularly reliable, they're not particularly trustworthy, even though you like them. 00:22:21.017 --> 00:22:28.141 So this separating affection from trust for me is a wonderful thing to do. 00:22:28.741 --> 00:22:33.997 But the curious thing is that we can trust somebody and feel affection. 00:22:33.997 --> 00:22:35.961 We trust them and we like them. 00:22:35.961 --> 00:22:38.707 We can not like them and not trust them. 00:22:38.707 --> 00:22:43.144 We can trust them and not like them, or we can like them but not trust them. 00:22:43.144 --> 00:22:49.005 All of those variations are possible and, like you, always share in domains. 00:22:49.005 --> 00:22:55.584 So one of the examples I think about sometimes is well, I love Lucy, could be a TV show, right. 00:22:55.924 --> 00:22:56.666 I love my wife. 00:22:56.666 --> 00:22:57.268 She's great. 00:22:57.268 --> 00:23:02.684 I have great affection for her, super, and in general I do trust her. 00:23:02.684 --> 00:23:05.355 I believe she's sincere, competent and reliable. 00:23:05.355 --> 00:23:09.525 Except when we agree we're going to leave the house at seven. 00:23:09.525 --> 00:23:25.307 She is not trustworthy, meaning she's sincere that she's going to be ready at seven, but she seems incapable of being ready at seven and she has a horrendous history of reliability. 00:23:25.307 --> 00:23:41.582 It's not a secret, I mean, she knows this and we joke about it, so it's an open conversation between us and she always teases me because at seven I'm standing by the door, the door is open, I have my keys in my hand, I'm ready to go, and she's like yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:23:41.582 --> 00:23:49.501 But here's the interesting thing is, it doesn't diminish my affection for her that she's not trustworthy in that domain. 00:23:49.501 --> 00:23:50.404 It doesn't. 00:23:50.404 --> 00:23:55.386 It just means I shouldn't depend on her being ready at seven. 00:23:55.386 --> 00:23:58.055 If I do, then I'm being naive, right. 00:23:58.055 --> 00:24:00.119 Then I'm hoping she will be. 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:05.742 But it's not based on the reality of who she is, and I think that that's really helpful to see. 00:24:05.974 --> 00:24:07.782 And there are people who are our friends. 00:24:07.782 --> 00:24:11.144 We have great affection for them, but we would never loan them money. 00:24:11.144 --> 00:24:12.106 Why? 00:24:12.106 --> 00:24:18.682 Well, because we don't trust them that they will repay the money, even if they're sincere, that, yes, they will. 00:24:18.682 --> 00:24:26.769 We know by knowing them or by our experience with them maybe they're competent but maybe they're not reliable. 00:24:26.769 --> 00:24:29.564 Yeah, or maybe they're reliable but maybe they're not competent. 00:24:29.644 --> 00:24:29.845 Yeah. 00:24:29.994 --> 00:24:43.266 So I think that when I work with people and the question of trust comes up, I often think about this relationship with affection and investigate, because I think people trip over. 00:24:43.266 --> 00:24:46.029 That fairly often is what I see. 00:24:46.615 --> 00:24:47.576 That's a good point. 00:24:47.576 --> 00:25:10.509 Something else you've said brings up a question for me, or I thought as well, and that is you said you recognize that Lucy is not capable of being right next to you at the door, ready to go at seven, and you still have great affection for her because you really don't have an expectation that she will be. 00:25:10.509 --> 00:25:34.895 But I think often, especially in the workplace, we create expectations about someone's behavior, their trustworthiness in some way, and then when our expectation is dashed, maybe two or three times, we trip over into some other emotion, like resentment or annoyance, which, by the way, shows up. 00:25:34.895 --> 00:25:37.701 Those are emotions that tend to show up in distrust. 00:25:37.701 --> 00:25:41.617 We trip over into distrust of that person. 00:25:41.617 --> 00:25:48.565 Now you continue to trust Lucy in many other ways, but you just don't trust her in that particular kind of situation. 00:25:48.965 --> 00:25:49.287 Yes. 00:25:49.715 --> 00:25:54.047 And you don't have expectations that are going to be dashed. 00:25:54.974 --> 00:26:02.280 Well, the difference I would make is sometimes I do have expectations, or hopes, at least. 00:26:02.977 --> 00:26:03.740 Those are different. 00:26:03.740 --> 00:26:05.882 I think I would claim that those are different. 00:26:06.455 --> 00:26:10.507 But I'm aware that I have expectations. 00:26:10.507 --> 00:26:18.826 I'm aware that those are my standards, those aren't her standards, and I think that's generally where our expectations come from. 00:26:18.826 --> 00:26:23.885 You know, we expect people to respond within 24 hours, why? 00:26:23.885 --> 00:26:26.357 Well, because we respond within 24 hours. 00:26:26.357 --> 00:26:37.269 It may be a norm within the organization or the family or the company yes, that's true, but we also probably have this personal expectation based on our standards. 00:26:37.269 --> 00:26:46.463 So I think that that is a big piece too, because if my expectation is 24 hours and you don't respond, then what does that tell me? 00:26:46.463 --> 00:26:57.788 Well, either you weren't sincere, competent or reliable, but if my expectation is 72 hours and you respond in 48 hours, I'd go look sincere, competent or reliable.

00:26:57.788 --> 00:26:59.035 I trust this person. 00:26:59.035 --> 00:27:09.825 So I think that, yeah, that's a great place to look is how much of our assessment trust is based on our standards is hugely important. 00:27:10.606 --> 00:27:59.277 I'd like to go back to this emotion of affection and likability and again I'm kind of thinking about some of the teams that I'm currently working with and they are very social, they really like each other, they have a good time working together and thinking of one leader in particular, there are definitely performance goals that are not being met or accountability issues, and I think that this likability or this affection emotion is getting in the way of being able to address, because now we're kind of like, we're kind of more friends and we've lost sight of the reporting relationship or it's blurred, and so that causes some trickies. 00:27:59.277 --> 00:28:01.681 So some of these issues are not being addressed. 00:28:01.681 --> 00:28:03.743 The leader just doesn't know how to approach them. 00:28:04.505 --> 00:28:27.941 I would say exactly and I can speak from personal experience on this is if somebody reports to you but you regard them principally as a friend, versus somebody who is on your team, well, you're likely to operate out of affection rather than to operate out of accountability, trust, you know doing what we say, all of those things. 00:28:27.941 --> 00:28:46.398 So I think it can be a big breakdown, be a big breaking point, and I think what's helpful is to realize that in some cases, what we're aiming for in a relationship is affection we just want that person to like us but in others, trust is more important. 00:28:46.398 --> 00:28:51.616 I need that person to trust me, and I think it depends on the relationship and the person. 00:28:51.616 --> 00:29:13.284 And where it gets tricky is when we have more than one relationship with a person, where we have a friendship as well as a working or a collaboration or a working engagement of some kind, because then we're really approaching that with two different sets of emotions and trust may not be the highest. 00:29:14.246 --> 00:29:15.608 I just wanted to put it here. 00:29:15.608 --> 00:29:27.048 Most of our listeners are used to us talking about four trust assessment domains reliability, sincerity, competence and care being the fourth one, and I know you also consider that as an emotion. 00:29:27.048 --> 00:29:32.488 You're talking about the reliability, sincerity, competence, those three. 00:29:33.048 --> 00:29:34.671 Yeah, I don't dismiss that. 00:29:34.671 --> 00:29:37.836 What I tend to do is I put care inside of sincerity. 00:29:37.836 --> 00:29:50.130 So if Hila says, yes, I care about this happening and I'm committed to do it, then it really falls for me under well, does she really care or does she not care? 00:29:50.130 --> 00:29:51.836 Is she being sincere about her care or not? 00:29:51.836 --> 00:29:56.369 But my perspective is organize the model so it works for you. 00:29:56.369 --> 00:30:04.601 I mean, if it works for you, the listener or you, anybody to have the for fantastic, it doesn't matter, it's a fantastic model. 00:30:04.601 --> 00:30:09.791 If you nest care inside of sincerity, wonderful. 00:30:09.791 --> 00:30:10.034 I mean. 00:30:10.034 --> 00:30:24.196 As long as you are clear with what trust means to you and how to recognize it and how to build it when you need it, then I think the model is just the model and fantastic. 00:30:24.196 --> 00:30:25.138 So, yeah, lovely. 00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:25.839 Yeah. 00:30:26.605 --> 00:30:30.809 Can we go into some of the emotions around the? 00:30:30.809 --> 00:30:40.259 I'm saying now shady, slippery, sketchy, and also emotions that may show up around the distrust. 00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:41.281 What does that look like? 00:30:41.984 --> 00:30:51.057 Okay, so here's some of the ones I had for the shaky assessment of trust, but I think it's important to say it's not bad to have a shaky assessment of trust, that's okay. 00:30:51.176 --> 00:30:51.617 Not at all. 00:30:51.785 --> 00:30:57.837 It's just telling me that I'm not 100% sure, that there's still some questions here. 00:30:57.837 --> 00:31:00.017 So I think suspicion is one. 00:31:00.017 --> 00:31:09.826 But suspicion also has the flavor that I'm imagining that maybe there is something I shouldn't be trusting about the situation. 00:31:09.826 --> 00:31:22.901 So I'm looking for reasons to not trust, or I want those suspicions resolved so that I can move more into trust. 00:31:22.901 --> 00:31:24.487 I think doubt. 00:31:25.127 --> 00:31:27.152 But doubt for me is an emotion. 00:31:27.152 --> 00:31:41.386 Doubt shows up when we're doing something new that we've never done before, we're driving a new place, we're heading up a project that's bigger than we ever headed up before, we're getting married. 00:31:41.386 --> 00:31:45.958 We never did these things before, so we don't know what it's going to be like. 00:31:45.958 --> 00:31:54.789 So doubt for me has the quality of its impulse is to prepare, and I think that's great because if I prepare, a couple of things can happen. 00:31:54.789 --> 00:32:00.199 If I prepare, a couple of things can happen, I can feel greater trust or confidence in me. 00:32:00.199 --> 00:32:09.429 But also there's less unknowns out there in what I'm doing. 00:32:09.429 --> 00:32:23.109 So it's not that doubt will ever go away in a new situation, but I can move more and more into trust if I take a look at the doubt, if I prepare myself, if I resolve some of the unknowns in the situation, then sometimes it's much easier to trust. 00:32:23.109 --> 00:32:39.395 So this is why having a conversation with somebody who you're not 100% sure what they meant by something is so helpful, because then if you're clear and you believe they're sincere, then okay, then you'll move into trust, right. 00:32:39.395 --> 00:32:41.527 So the doubt can be very

helpful in that. 00:32:42.328 --> 00:33:04.559 Ambivalence is another one, because ambivalence to me means well, there's two things I care about, but I'm not sure which direction to go, and ambivalence can be about two things I care about that both have negative consequences, or two things I care about that might both have positive consequences, in my opinion. 00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:09.277 So, do I want to go skiing or sailing? 00:33:09.277 --> 00:33:11.051 Okay, well, I might feel ambivalent. 00:33:11.265 --> 00:33:13.513 Well, I don't know, but those are both kind of cool things. 00:33:13.513 --> 00:33:16.753 Do I want to pay taxes or medical bills? 00:33:16.753 --> 00:33:23.238 Well, not such a great choice, but still I can feel ambivalent about what to do. 00:33:23.238 --> 00:33:27.375 So I think that ambivalence can be in that shaky area. 00:33:27.375 --> 00:33:30.113 I think seer can be, because what's fear? 00:33:30.113 --> 00:33:37.376 Well, something may harm me, and so I'm not sure, but it's a possibility that something may harm me. 00:33:37.376 --> 00:33:39.672 So I would put that in there. 00:33:39.833 --> 00:33:43.470 Confusion, right, just lack of clarity for many people. 00:33:43.470 --> 00:33:50.813 If I'm constantly confused, well, even about where I'm driving, then I don't trust that I know how to get there. 00:33:50.813 --> 00:33:53.826 And I think you mentioned Charles skepticism. 00:33:53.826 --> 00:34:09.719 Skepticism for me is I believe one thing, but Charles is telling me something different, and skepticism is the emotion that has me trying to either choose between those or integrate them somehow. 00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:12.112 So I'm trying to determine what to believe. 00:34:12.112 --> 00:34:16.992 But how it's related to trust is because I believe something already. 00:34:16.992 --> 00:34:22.449 When Charles tells me the opposite, I'm like do I trust that? 00:34:22.449 --> 00:34:23.512 Do I trust him? 00:34:23.512 --> 00:34:29.869 So it puts me in that middle ground of being unsure about whether trust would be a good choice or not. 00:34:30.811 --> 00:34:34.960 This is all really making me curious about. 00:34:34.960 --> 00:35:04.835 I think many of us and leaders that we work with have grown up or learned about emotions as there's these good ones and then there's bad ones, and in understanding the purpose of each of these emotions, especially the ones that we've been taught to hold as negative or bad emotions, how much richness becomes available to us when we remove that assessment of the goodness or badness of an emotion and rather lean into. 00:35:05.096 --> 00:35:10.074 there's data here for me, I would completely agree and I would say the same is true with trust. 00:35:10.074 --> 00:35:15.496 You know, one of the things when I work with organizations or teams is they always say that we need more trust. 00:35:15.496 --> 00:35:17.128 And I'm like whoa, hang on here. 00:35:17.128 --> 00:35:22.954 You know, more trust

is not necessarily better, just like less skepticism is not necessarily better. 00:35:22.954 --> 00:35:28.275 You know, when you were landing that plane in the emergency, skepticism could have been my friend. 00:35:28.275 --> 00:35:29.137 That's right, right. 00:35:29.137 --> 00:35:30.284 It could have saved my life. 00:35:30.284 --> 00:35:38.128 So skepticism, we throw it in the negative emotion basket, but actually it's a fantastic emotion, it serves us. 00:35:38.128 --> 00:35:43.273 Basket, but actually it's a fantastic emotion, it serves us. 00:35:43.273 --> 00:35:48.570 But if we throw it in that bad emotions bucket or negative emotions, then we don't pay attention to it, and I think that that's something we do habitually. 00:35:48.731 --> 00:35:49.916 It's something that we weren't. 00:35:49.916 --> 00:35:54.175 But, to be honest, I work with people in every part of the world and everybody does that. 00:35:54.175 --> 00:36:02.090 I mean, I don't know, I have not worked with anybody from a culture that says no, we don't assess emotions as positive and negative. 00:36:02.090 --> 00:36:03.570 I've never run into that. 00:36:03.570 --> 00:36:06.472 So I think it's a pretty human thing we do. 00:36:06.472 --> 00:36:17.942 But I think for me it's more based on how it feels to me, like it's pleasant or unpleasant, and we say, oh, that makes it positive or negative, and I would say no, no, no, you can't equate. 00:36:17.942 --> 00:36:19.726 It doesn't work to equate that. 00:36:19.726 --> 00:36:31.637 But the other thing is, sometimes we put emotions in that negative bucket because we see them as dangerous or we've been hurt by them, or we've hurt other people when we're in that emotion. 00:36:31.637 --> 00:36:48.773 So it's not that it doesn't have some value, but I completely agree with you when we look at emotions through that lens, we lose a lot, and if we can just set that aside at least for a moment, we can see emotions, their value, their purpose, their data much more clearly. 00:36:49.577 --> 00:37:17.135 I was teaching online the last couple of mornings with a group of leaders from an organization doing an intro to leader as coach or a coach approach, and it was so fascinating as I did a live coaching demo for them how a number of them was like, well, but you're talking like what you did was just therapy, because you were talking about how people feel and their emotions and like that just doesn't seem like something we should be doing. 00:37:17.135 --> 00:37:19.699 Well, isn't that fascinating? 00:37:19.699 --> 00:37:21.411 Isn't that fascinating? 00:37:22.085 --> 00:37:28.057 Yeah, it is interesting to me because if you listen to people, they use emotions all the time. 00:37:28.057 --> 00:37:30.864 They talk about their emotions, their kids talk about emotions. 00:37:30.864 --> 00:37:44.012 I did a facilitation with a big group who was in the aerospace industry, including NASA and one of their prime contractors 22 people that are working

on a $2 billion project together. 00:37:44.012 --> 00:37:54.425 And to get a sense of the group, the first question was in 30 seconds, say you know, share what you're thinking about the program, about this thing. 00:37:54.425 --> 00:38:08.416 Every single person started their statement with an emotion I'm scared, I'm excited, I'm angry, I'm you know, I'm delighted Every single one. 00:38:08.416 --> 00:38:10.666 And it's like you know what they're in the room. 00:38:10.947 --> 00:38:15.557 It's not like we don't talk about these, but because we label them as well. 00:38:15.557 --> 00:38:16.646 This is psychology. 00:38:16.646 --> 00:38:22.652 Then we don't have them as a daily tool and I tend to think about this like arithmetic. 00:38:22.652 --> 00:38:24.039 I mean, think about arithmetic. 00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:26.327 You use it every day, but you're not a mathematician. 00:38:26.327 --> 00:38:32.967 But you still use arithmetic every day and it changes your life, it enhances your life enormously. 00:38:32.967 --> 00:38:35.514 Think it how could you live without arithmetic? 00:38:35.514 --> 00:38:37.768 But it doesn't mean you have to be a mathematician. 00:38:37.768 --> 00:38:41.311 It just means you need to understand it well enough to employ it. 00:38:41.311 --> 00:39:03.338 You may not know anything about calculus, that's fine, but you got arithmetic and I would say that having the language, the articulation of emotions, the understanding of emotions is one level, using them to do therapy is something else and it's something that I have no business in that territory because I'm completely ignorant about how to do that. 00:39:03.338 --> 00:39:10.637 But in the territory of coaching or in the territory of writing or discussing emotions, they're just emotions. 00:39:10.858 --> 00:39:14.034 Yeah, this has been a fascinating conversation. 00:39:14.034 --> 00:39:17.507 I'm just watching our time as we close. 00:39:17.507 --> 00:39:20.896 How can people find you, if you'd like them to find you? 00:39:21.505 --> 00:39:23.472 Oh, I'd love for people to find me. 00:39:23.472 --> 00:39:26.990 So I'm on LinkedIn, dan Newby, I think I'll pop right up. 00:39:26.990 --> 00:39:30.253 If you're interested in any of the books, you can go on Amazon. 00:39:30.253 --> 00:39:32.077 Type in my name, I'll pop up. 00:39:32.077 --> 00:39:46.599 My website is schoolofemotionsworld schoolofemotionsworld, and if you want to write to me, I'm Dan at schoolofemotionsworld, but I'd be delighted to hear from anybody. 00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:48.025 I love this conversation. 00:39:48.025 --> 00:39:50.231 I'm always available to explore. 00:39:51.414 --> 00:39:57.777 And would you, before we close, also share with our listeners the titles of the books that you have written? 00:40:00.144 --> 00:40:01.849 our listeners the titles of the books that you have written. 00:40:01.849 --> 00:40:04.215 Sure Well, the first one was the Unopened Gift, and it's a primer in emotional literacy.

00:40:04.215 --> 00:40:12.688 That's the title and the idea is that we all have emotions, but most of us haven't opened them, we haven't unwrapped them, we haven't seen them, and they are a gift. 00:40:12.688 --> 00:40:13.449 We all have them. 00:40:13.449 --> 00:40:22.077 The second is the Field Guide to Emotions, which is not exactly a dictionary, but it's a place that you can search through and say, well, I've got this emotion. 00:40:22.077 --> 00:40:28.197 I'm not sure what it is, so I'm going to go through these 150 emotions to see if something resonates with me. 00:40:28.197 --> 00:40:30.231 So that's the second book. 00:40:30.231 --> 00:40:39.219 The third book was a workbook that accompanies the Unopened Gift and it's really the process, step-by-step, about how do we build emotional literacy. 00:40:39.219 --> 00:40:42.795 It's quite a small, self-guided workbook. 00:40:43.175 --> 00:41:02.536 And then I collaborated with one of my Vietnamese students to write a book called Hello Emotions, and it's lovely because it's her stories about how she befriended emotions, and she came from a very technical background, so emotions were not part of her life before she moved into coaching and working with people. 00:41:02.625 --> 00:41:18.673 So she wrote those stories and then I wrote after each of them how those emotions could be seen from a structural perspective and deconstructed and related emotions, and so the more technical part, you might say. 00:41:18.673 --> 00:41:21.067 But her writing is beautifully lyrical. 00:41:21.067 --> 00:41:29.711 It really reflects Vietnamese language, although she wrote in English, and the last one that just came out last month is called Dignity in Policing. 00:41:29.711 --> 00:41:35.570 It's a collaboration of somebody who works in Texas with 100 police departments. 00:41:35.570 --> 00:41:48.684 What it focuses on is the opportunity for police to develop emotional literacy, because it would help them, it would help the agencies, it would help the community. 00:41:48.684 --> 00:42:02.438 And the statistics among police for suicide, for drug abuse, for spousal abuse, for depression are astonishing. 00:42:02.438 --> 00:42:05.686 They're three, four, five times the norm. 00:42:05.686 --> 00:42:15.369 And the statistic that really caught me is that more police in the US die from suicide than are killed in the line of duty. 00:42:15.951 --> 00:42:16.552 That's horrible. 00:42:17.233 --> 00:42:21.380 And I was completely astonished when I learned that. 00:42:21.380 --> 00:42:46.778 So it's really an offer to people in that territory who have never seen emotions as a tool or something they could learn or something that would benefit them, to take a look and it's been really well received and we're thrilled with it and I think it's going to really going to have an impact eventually in that territory of law enforcement first responders. 00:42:48.204 --> 00:42:49.228 Nice Thank you. 00:42:49.228 --> 00:42:51.954 And thank you for today's conversation, Dan. 00:42:51.954 --> 00:42:53.056 It's been great. 00:42:53.804 --> 00:42:55.148 Absolutely my pleasure. 00:42:55.148 --> 00:42:57.554 I'll come back anytime, yay, yay. 00:42:59.085 --> 00:43:01.472 And will you bring a different joke with you when you come back? 00:43:02.014 --> 00:43:04.188 Oh sorry, I will, absolutely. 00:43:04.188 --> 00:43:08.818 I commit I will learn a new joke for the next session. 00:43:09.385 --> 00:43:14.795 And for those of you who are listening, Dan shared a joke with us before we started the conversation today. 00:43:14.795 --> 00:43:16.199 That was pretty good. 00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:17.606 I mean, we got a good laugh out of it. 00:43:17.967 --> 00:43:19.911 Here I'll even go one better, charles. 00:43:19.911 --> 00:43:24.780 Next time I'll bring a joke that has to do with emotion. 00:43:26.469 --> 00:43:26.871 All right. 00:43:27.152 --> 00:43:27.894 How about that? 00:43:28.304 --> 00:43:29.951 I didn't even have to double-dog, dare you? 00:43:29.951 --> 00:43:30.894 You just offered that. 00:43:31.344 --> 00:43:34.132 I know I just offer it and I don't know what that joke will be. 00:43:34.132 --> 00:43:35.605 I have no idea Do? 00:43:35.625 --> 00:43:36.126 you have faith. 00:43:36.146 --> 00:43:37.469 I'm sure it's possible. 00:43:37.469 --> 00:43:38.693 I have faith. 00:43:38.693 --> 00:43:40.898 Yes, I have faith Absolutely. 00:43:40.898 --> 00:43:46.195 I don't trust myself so much as a joke teller, but I have faith that I can find a joke. 00:43:46.536 --> 00:43:47.927 I love it, Dan. 00:43:47.927 --> 00:43:49.130 Thank you very much. 00:43:49.130 --> 00:43:50.815 It's been great talking with you today. 00:43:51.204 --> 00:43:52.628 Thank you, it's been a delight. 00:43:52.628 --> 00:43:54.114 Thank you, your wonderful host. 00:43:54.114 --> 00:43:54.976 Thank you, thank you. 00:43:56.106 --> 00:44:03.030 On behalf of both Charles and myself, we want to say a big thank you to our producer and sound editor, chad Penner. 00:44:03.030 --> 00:44:14.985 Hillary Rideout of Inside Out Branding, who does our promotion, our amazing graphics and marketing for us, and our theme music was composed by Jonas Smith. 00:44:14.985 --> 00:44:28.413 If you have any questions or comments for us about the podcast, if you have a trust-related situation that you'd like us to take up in one of our episodes, we'd love to hear from you at trust, at trustonpurposeorg. 00:44:29.315 --> 00:44:31.458 And we'd also like to thank you, our listeners. 00:44:31.458 --> 00:44:37.836 Take care and keep building trust on purpose Until next time. 00:44:41.548 --> 00:44:49.009 Until next time.