27 - TruCommunication: Effective Communication in Public Service의 전체 녹취록

Bernardino. 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:37.600 If you're familiar with San Bernardino, it's been unfortunately impacted by a lot of major employers leaving, very blighted community. 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:43.439 They've done a pretty good job with what they've had to work with, but I got hired and basically said, here's what you're gonna do. 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:53.439 You're gonna look at these 20 things in the municipal code: overgrown vegetation, trash cans left out too long, inoperable vehicles, peeling paint, just the exterior stuff. 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:58.720 We didn't get into a lot of zoning at the time or in any uh substandard housing or anything like that. 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:10.560 But early on, as I go out there, I'm finding vacant abandoned structures that are partially burned, or they've got gang graffiti, or they've got you know drug paraphernalia, or they've got homeless people living in. 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.639 I assume that was listed in that kind of 20 top things to look at. 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:16.399 I hope actually it was not. 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:18.639 Wow, oh my gosh, yeah. 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:30.160 And so we were we were like, I'm going out in this neighborhood, and you know, you go four houses, or there's some in-ops, there's some trash and debris, there's lack of landscape, and then here's this blasted open and vacant, dangerous building. 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:34.959 And we just kind of skipped that and didn't recognize the importance. 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:43.839 San Mordino had a lot of those, and didn't recognize the importance of how that one property can negatively impact the surrounding communities. 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.000 And so, in the first few years I was there, I started to put more of a focus on that. 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:59.279 And so realizing that all the experience I had, fire inspection, fire fighting, law enforcement, all of that came together in code enforcement. 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:06.079 And it what was nice for me was to have the experience in those services and those in those first first responders. 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:11.279 I call there's the thing we call code enforcement, it's the forgotten first responders because we have our. 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:22.240 But that gave me credibility with the other agencies that up until that point really there was no communication, there was no cooperation or or collaboration. 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:26.079 It was just very much throwing darts at the dartboard. 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:27.360 Everybody was doing their own thing. 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:36.160 There was no focused effort on how to tackle the worst of the worst, and then hope and and see that some of the other peripheral issues would get better on their own. 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:36.639 Right. 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:45.040 So in all of these podcast episodes that we've done, I have not yet met somebody who said, I went to school for this. 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:50.879 And that's kind of a newer concept now that we're seeing AA degrees or working on a bachelor's for this. 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:52.720 But that is that's a newer thing. 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.720 I mean, you know, when I started 20 years ago, I fell into it as well. 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:02.240 And, you know, our listeners have heard me tell this story before, but I remember, you know, my dad's a retired city manager. 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:07.199 And one day when I was about 19, I said, Hey, dad, I'd like to get a little experience in city stuff. 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:16.240 I know you can't hire me here, but what about you have anybody you know in another city calls up a city manager that he knew in another city, said, Hey, my kid has nothing whatsoever to offer. 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:17.439 What do you have for him? 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:19.839 And he goes, Well, I have a code enforcement job. 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:21.680 And I asked my dad, what the heck is code enforcement? 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:23.360 He goes, This is the city manager, by the way. 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:24.959 He goes, You don't want that job. 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:26.160 It's the worst job. 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:27.600 You're just fighting with people all day. 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:28.480 Everybody hates you. 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:33.120 You're writing parking tickets and you're mowing lawns, or you're dealing with people who don't mow their lawns. 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:35.279 I thought, oh God, that sounds awful. 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.040 Now, of course, 20 years later, I won a law firm and all I do is code enforcement. 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.040 It has evolved to be so much more than that. 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:46.879 And and I I love I love that you say, hey, I have this kid that really has nothing to offer. 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:48.639 Oh, we put him in code enforcement, right? 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:50.560 Because that's what we did for so long. 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.439 It was a junk drawer of HR. 00:07:53.920 --> 00:08:01.920 If you have the problem employee or an injured employee or somebody, you know, that's like, okay, yeah, we got to put them somewhere, code enforcement. 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:04.720 And that's not it, right? 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:12.639 And I think that's why early on code enforcement was so ineffective, is because they didn't understand the value that it has. 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:21.680 And because of that value, they didn't give it the time, attention, budget, training, et cetera, that it that it deserves and needs for us to be successful. 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:29.839 Yeah, just in the 20 years I've been doing it, I've seen a humongous change in both the complexity and the and the breadth of what code enforcement is charging. 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:30.800 Absolutely. 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:32.320 It's it's so critical there. 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:37.919 The Swiss Army tool from the jump drawer, I

love that phrase, to the Swiss Army tool of cities. 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:38.320 Right. 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:39.200 What a shift. 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:46.080 Now, we're here to talk ultimately about you know the role of communication in code enforcement, why that matters. 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.360 But before we do that, I do want to talk a little bit about the book. 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:53.919 It's a bit of a cliche to say that someone wrote the book, you're holding it up here on camera. 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:58.559 You literally wrote the book, and this is a book that had not been updated in like 30 years. 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:02.240 It's comprehensive code enforcement, it's the A to Z on code. 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:06.080 How can you talk about how did that opportunity come about and why was there the need? 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:08.799 Oh gosh, another another long story. 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.200 But when I was with San Bernardino, there was very little. 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:16.000 We had SCASIO and some of the training there, but not much outside of that. 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:24.639 And somebody handed me Code Enforcement a Comprehensive Approach, which was the predecessor to strategic code enforcement, written by Jim Hare. 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:28.559 Yeah, and they were both out of the city of San Diego Planning Department. 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:30.000 It was out of print. 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:34.320 I glommed onto a copy of it, read it, and I'm like, oh gosh, this is great. 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:37.840 And you know, it was for its time, it was very comprehensive. 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:43.600 It was it was kind of at the time that I guess maybe it's the old testament, and this one's the new testament. 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:45.759 I don't know, depending on how you look at the Bible. 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:57.200 Anyway, you know, I started implementing some of that, started going to other trainings, and one of the things that I tell folks when I when I train is when you go to lunch, sit at a table with people you don't know. 00:09:58.159 --> 00:09:58.720 Guess what? 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:02.480 You get to sit at a table with the people you came with next week. 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:03.039 Right. 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:08.720 Sit at a table with people you don't know and have a conversation that's that down to that communication you're talking about. 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:23.919 And so, following my old rule, I was at a conference, I sat down at the table, and there sits Mark Strain, who I believe has just retired from the county of San Bernardino, but he was with the city of Riverside at the time, and he was talking about how they've got these days, these buildings, they don't know what to do. 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:25.840 And I said, Have you considered demolitions? 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.360 He goes, Well, kind of, and I go, We're doing a lot in San Bernardino. 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:30.639 We also do

compliance agreements. 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:31.360 He's like, What? 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:46.799 So we have this conversation, we exchange information, and one day I drove over to the city of Riverside from San Bernardino and sat down with him and some of the other legal staff in the city of Riverside and explained to him how to go about doing a demolition, what what because this is at a time when it wasn't really well known. 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:54.000 And so about two months later, Mark calls me and says, Hey, this hasn't been announced yet, but we're gonna have an opening here in the city of Riverside. 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:55.279 I'd love to see you apply. 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:59.519 So I did, and I got it, and it was not a good fit. 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:01.600 I was only there about 16, 18 months. 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:12.879 But Mark's cousin was the code enforcement manager for the city of Chula Vista, and he was going on to back to the city of San Diego planning department. 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:15.519 There was an opening there, and he said, You should consider that. 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.720 I went down and I got hired by the city of Chula Vista. 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:23.840 Joe Schilling, co-author of the first book, grew up in the city of Chula Vista. 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:28.159 I get hired as the code enforcement manager, and guess who the assistant planning director is? 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:30.559 Jim Harry, the other author. 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:32.000 So that's that was it. 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:40.480 It was because I went to lunch with somebody I didn't know, built a relationship through communication, and and that's how I got introduced to Jim and Joe. 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:44.480 Solano Press reached out to them and said, Hey, we need we need an update on this. 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:46.799 And Jim said, Not me, Doug. 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:49.759 And that's that's how that happened. 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:50.879 That's phenomenal. 00:11:51.039 --> 00:12:00.159 I mean, it was it would it have been easier to write a whole new book than updating an existing one, or is that what you essentially did? 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:08.159 Yeah, I was in before I got approached by Solano and Joe Schilling, I was actually starting to kind of sketch one out myself. 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:19.200 And when Joe approached me, we looked at it, we sat down with a publishing company, we sat down with a couple other with Jim Hare and a couple other folks and said, okay, do we update this or do we just rewrite it? 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:20.960 And we decided, you know what? 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:23.360 The original was California specific. 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:26.960 We wanted something that could be more universal throughout the nation. 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:32.639 There are a lot of California related topics in here, but they are also valid throughout the country. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:40.080 And so we decided to go from scratch and we just re-wrote, we we updated, but really wrote a whole new book. 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:43.200 Yeah, well, it's been so long that you need to do that. 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:49.039 It feels a little bit like the multi-thousand year gap between the old testament and new testament in that regard. 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.120 So I can completely understand that. 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:58.639 You know, it's often said that code enforcement is the only person or the first person from government that someone in the community may have encountered. 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:02.000 How important is communication to getting compliance? 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:05.200 How important is it just in our profession of code enforcement? 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:12.639 I I'm gonna say that it communication is 80% of voluntary compliance. 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:20.799 And the other 20% are people that aren't gonna comply regardless of how well you communicate, how well intended you are, right? 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:21.919 There we have those. 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:29.519 And and depending on where you are and the and the type of issues you have, I mean, it may be a little more, it may be a little less. 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:35.840 But but for me, I learned there in the city of San Bordero, we would drive by, we'd staple these notices and keep going. 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:39.279 And and people would call infuriated, right? 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:40.320 They were, what is this? 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:40.799 I don't know. 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:44.879 And it's like, oh they don't know, right? 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:46.240 They've lived like that forever. 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:51.200 And two doors down is a blasted out, burned out you know, ganghouse. 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:55.039 Why are you talking to me about my patchy lawn when when that's there? 00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:00.000 And so all the places I've taught, I've consulted, everywhere. 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:09.279 It's like you you have to you have to be able to talk to people, not talk at them, not talk to them, but talk with them. 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:15.600 Because communication isn't me telling you that your place is a mess and you gotta pick it up, or I'm gonna find you. 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:17.519 That's not communication, right? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:25.120 Communication is finding out why maybe this yard is overgrown or the roof is peeling or whatever. 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:30.159 You find out it's some 86-year-old lady on fixed income whose husband passed away three years ago, right? 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.080 That makes that makes a difference, right? 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:39.440 So the communication is also about finding out the the the why behind the what for me. 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:39.840 Yep. 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:41.840 And I've talked to folks that's not my job. 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:43.200 Well, it absolutely is. 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:49.919 I would dare to say

that that is becoming more and more well known, that that is part of our job than it was in the beginning. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.840 In the beginning, it was like, you know, post it and see you later kind of thing. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:59.120 And if you have a question, then submit a public records request or you know, get me an email. 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:00.240 But I agree with you. 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.039 You know, we've had guests on this from all over the country. 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:13.759 And some of the things that I hear uniformly from I'm thinking of one of our guests from Florida right now, another one Oklahoma, the engagement, the education on well, it's not just the what. 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:17.039 We all know the what, the what out there looks bad, it's blighted. 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:18.080 The why. 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:20.159 Why, why is this a problem? 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.360 And then also why is it happening is so critical. 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:28.720 How do you heal an illness, for example, if you don't know the cause of the illness? 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:29.440 Right? 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:32.720 Otherwise, you may be treating a cold, but it's actually a flu. 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:34.159 So I'm with you on that. 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:35.360 Let's go through a scenario here. 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:38.720 Someone calls, why the hell did I get this thing on my property? 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:43.039 Why are you picking on me when there's uh yeah, a bombed-out house down the road? 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:45.840 What's your advice on how to communicate with them? 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:54.240 Yeah, I think every place I've been, I've tried to establish what I call my red knuckle policy where you actually go up and knock on a door. 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.440 You always want to consider officer safety, you want to stop, listen. 00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:59.919 You know, is there a domestic fight going on in there? 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.399 Well, you're not gonna knock on the door when that happens because you're gonna be the target of both angry people inside. 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:10.000 So, setting all that aside, when it's safe for you to approach and go up and knock on the door, introduce yourself. 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.600 Hi, how you doing, and just see if you can build that rapport. 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:17.679 You're not always, I mean, I'm pretty good about getting along with just about everybody, but guess what? 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.840 There have been people in my career who absolutely don't like me. 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:23.039 Sure, sure. 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:24.159 You know, that's what it is. 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:27.360 There are people you're never going to win over, and that's okay. 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.120 You don't have to win everybody over. 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:38.320 But if you take the approach that you can and you're actually interested in their situation and what's going on with them, and find some common ground, right? 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:47.120 I mean, I joke when I used to do my you know abandoned vehicle abatement class, I'd say, yo, you walk up and knock, wow, 73 Gremlin, those are classic, you know. 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.360 Oh, yeah, I'm saving it for my grandson. 00:16:49.440 --> 00:17:01.679 Oh, that's I can understand that, but you can't save it here, you know, and just just have a sense of these are folks who have lives and who have things going on in their lives, just like I do, just like you do. 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:19.200 And so could be the last thing that they want to see is, you know, you know, if whether you got a polo shirt, Hawaiian shirt, you're in a full-blown uniform, whatever, the last thing they want to see is somebody, any of us want to see is somebody coming up, knocking on a door, handing us some violation that says you have to do these things in 15 days. 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:19.839 Right. 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:31.039 So I tell people, you know, we've all been sorry, DMV, I'm gonna throw you under the bus, but we've all been to the Department of Voter Vehicles and had the rude treatment at some point in our lives. 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:42.559 And my thing is don't be the DMV, be the person you want to talk to on the other side of the calendar and put yourself in their position and also understand that you have no authority outside the code. 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.559 It's not about what you want or what you need or what you're telling them to do. 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:53.599 The code requires, and this code was voted on by elected officials who were who were elected by your friends and neighbors. 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:54.799 This isn't me. 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:59.519 This is this is bigger than me, it's bigger than you, it's the community. 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:11.200 And so that's it doesn't always win them over, but well, I think you know, one of the takeaways for me from what you just said is we can't control how other people behave or respond. 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.400 We can control, however, how we behave or respond. 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.119 So, you know, we all have bad days and those things happen. 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:37.920 But generally speaking, if we are professional, informative, and courteous and they throw a pie in our face, well, there are going to be consequences for that, but we can only control us, and so and we're a reflection of the government, and so we need to, or at least a reflection of the government as we would like it to be, and so we need to be those people. 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:44.720 We're also possibly, if you're particularly involved in your community, mean you may also live there, and so there's a thing there too. 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:54.000 So I love that, I love that concept of trying to understand why, and you know, I think also we're always going to get compliance, it's just going to

happen, it's going to happen. 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:58.960 And so if we can get it being on the same page, then all the easier. 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:03.440 But at the end of the day, we don't have to be confrontational because we're going to get compliance. 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:15.839 The law is well, and and and I've I've I've been you know out in the field, done a lot of ride-alongs all over the country, and some of the best folks don't talk a lot, they just they listen more than they talk. 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:16.640 Okay, yeah. 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:18.000 Oh, well, thanks for sharing that. 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:18.799 I understand that. 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:24.160 How long do you think it will take you to get your yard mode or to get the window repaired or to get the this or the that? 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.359 I'm talking a lot about owner occupants in some of those. 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:34.160 When it comes to when it comes to landlords, sometimes we have to have a little different tactic, depending on the landlord. 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:35.200 They know the rules. 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:36.559 This is a business for them. 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:46.480 And so they're making money or they're, you know, they're they're paying for their investment that eventually will make them money right on the backs of other folks who are paying the rents. 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:56.079 And so, you know, if you're paying rent and you're not receiving what you're paying for, then to me that's not only an unfair business competition, business practice, but it's also fraud. 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:01.279 You're I'm paying$2,000 for$1,000 worth of what you're providing. 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:02.240 That's not right. 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:08.640 And so at some time, sometimes we have to step into the shoes of the of an advocate, you know, for for folks. 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.359 And that's a different style of communication. 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:12.720 It's more business-like. 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:19.839 You still can be friendly, but you still to the bottom line is understand, you know, I have tools available to me, Mr. 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:23.519 Property Owner, that I don't necessarily want to use. 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:30.000 I would much rather see voluntary long-term compliance than right enforced, forced find compliance. 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:34.160 It's going to be better for you, cheaper for you, easier for you if you do it this way. 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:35.359 That's not a threat. 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:41.920 And I make sure anytime I tell somebody they want, here's some of the consequences that may occur if you don't come into compliance. 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:42.799 Are you threatening me? 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:43.680 Not threatening you. 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:44.799 This is just information. 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:46.160 You know, facts. 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:53.920 Yeah, because like you said, I've got the municipal code, I've got the government code, I've got the California Health and Safety Code. 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:59.200 The the laws are on, and when I say my side, the side of the jurisdiction. 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:03.839 One of the things I try to teach is you know, don't take it personal, don't make it personal. 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.079 It's the code and the conditions. 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:08.720 That's that's what that's what we're butting up against. 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.359 Now, there's gonna be personalities in there too. 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:15.680 Okay, do the best you can to navigate that, but don't take it personal. 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:19.519 If they tell you to F off, you know, don't don't get your hackles up. 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:22.000 Because guess what? 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:28.400 You have the code on your side, and you've got a team of lawyers on your side, and and it's okay, thank you very much. 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:29.599 Appreciate your opinion. 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.599 Perhaps maybe we should do this, you know, through email or on the phone, right? 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.440 Or exactly, you know, through the through documented communication. 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:40.240 And and so for for me, that's been it. 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:55.680 And I remember one time I was riding with this jurisdiction, I was doing an evaluation of their processes, and I'm out and we stop, window rolls down, camera goes up, click, click, camera comes down, window goes up, and and we start to drive off, and we're like, Oh, what was that? 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:57.359 Oh, I just did an inspection. 00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.599 Oh I said, Oh. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.160 Okay, well, can I ask what the violation was? 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.000 Yeah, it was trash cans left out in public view and vehicle parts in the driveway. 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:10.559 Sure enough, there was a trash can out there and there were four tires stacked up next to the garage. 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.720 You know what else there, you know what else there was? 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.200 There was an open garage door with a gentleman sitting in a chair in the garage. 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:22.559 You know how long it would have taken him to roll the trash cans and the tires in the garage and be it been in compliance? 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:22.960 Right. 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:25.039 Probably about two minutes. 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:25.519 Yeah. 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:31.119 But instead, he saw the car there, he saw the camera come up and he saw us drive off. 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:34.480 And then three days later, he got a notice about these things. 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:37.440 How happy do you think he was to get that notice? 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:39.039 Because he said the same thing. 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:40.720 You could have just told me. 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:42.079 Right? 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.720 Yeah, not to

mention that added work because that notice doesn't live in a vacuum. 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.200 You got to write the notice, you got to track it in your narrative. 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:51.599 That notice might be appealed if it's appealable. 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:52.880 I mean, all of a sudden it's more work. 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:54.000 So the getting out of the car. 00:22:54.079 --> 00:23:02.960 I mean, you and I are in the industry, and so I empathize code enforcement officers universally are overwhelmed with work and they're understaffed. 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.440 And in some jurisdictions, they're underpaid. 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:23.119 And so this is also a call to cities to invest more in their code enforcement because code enforcement returns dividends with increased property values and reduced needs for police, calls service, and so on, and reduce fires, insurance claims, accidents. 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:27.279 So this is one of the government investments that actually returns taxpayer money. 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:28.240 Yeah. 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:39.440 And and and again, there's a need for us to know the technical side of things, but we can't lose sight of of the the attitude side of things too, right? 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:45.440 We've got to have in in I'm gonna say, you know, in 40 years, yep, I've lost my temper. 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.960 Yep, I've said things I I regretted, yep, I've had to apologize to people. 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:50.400 It happens, right? 00:23:50.799 --> 00:24:01.599 But for the most part, if we could just remember that it's not personal, and if I go up, okay, so let's say we'd gotten out of the car and approached that gentleman and he closed the garage door on us, what have we lost? 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:02.799 Nothing. 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:08.000 But if we'd have said, hey, somebody called in about this, do you mind moving it in the garage? 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:15.440 And literally, now this guy's gonna have a much better understanding than he did have that he just got a notice in the mail. 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:17.920 That's just how it is, right? 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:27.039 And so to me, finding some common ground, being not only approaching properly, but being approachable by the folks that are in there. 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:37.680 And if they start going off about, you know, my property, my this, my that, yep, you're absolutely right, it is, but there are some, you know, rules and regulations that govern us all. 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:40.960 And if it's bad enough and they're just still chipping, say, thank you very much. 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:42.880 I'm really sorry I interrupted your day. 00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:46.640 Just so you know, you're gonna be receiving some information in the mail, and then drive off. 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.119 You hadn't lost anything, you have not lost anything. 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.000 People say, you know, who makes the best code enforcement officer? 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:58.559 And I tell people, I'll hire attitude and aptitude over certifications and sometimes experience. 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:05.839 You know, I can teach the code, I can teach them how to fill out an NOV, I can teach them how to, you know, log the stuff in the in the data management system. 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:13.599 And so I've had good luck hiring folks that were law in law enforcement for you know two to five years, and it just wasn't for them. 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:14.240 That was me, right? 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:17.279 I was a cop for seven years, and it just wasn't a good fit. 00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:29.440 And so, but it taught me how to investigate, it taught me how to document, it taught me how to write a report, get a warrant, and the things that are very important tools for us as code enforcement officers, inspectors. 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:31.680 No, I think I think those are all just great points. 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:34.000 So let me ask you one last scenario here, though. 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:43.279 You do get the person who is your sovereign citizen or your not just get off my lawn, this is my property, but your, you know, conspiracy theorist. 00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:46.079 What are some communication tips to deal with those kind of folks? 00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:50.960 I generally fly drones and drop aluminum hats over there. 00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:51.599 No, I don't. 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:52.240 I'm kidding. 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:57.599 You know, I I've had those and I've always just said, Oh, that's an interesting uh opinion. 00:25:57.680 --> 00:25:59.359 And stand it's not an opinion, it's fact. 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:01.920 Okay, that's an interesting fact that I was not aware of. 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:03.599 Thank you very much, appreciate it. 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:05.279 You're still gonna get a notice from us. 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.279 If you want to fight that, you know, you there'll be an opportunity to appeal before a board. 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:15.759 I'm not the one that gets to say it is, you know, oh that that this violation doesn't exist because you believe you're sovereign. 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:17.680 And so more power to you. 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.640 Thank you very much. 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.960 Note in file, sovereign citizen, take a friend, take law enforcement, you know. 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:23.200 Right. 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:28.799 You want to make sure you keep that that up in that communication going, but there's no use arguing with them. 00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:29.359 Yeah. 00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:31.200 And we're not there to argue the politics. 00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:33.359 Code enforcement is apolitical. 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:40.160 We enforce codes that are adopted by others who themselves are elected by the community. 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:43.519 I mean, it's that perfect example of three branches of government right there.

00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:46.240 Those are the hard cases, and those are the ones we hear about. 00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:54.160 But gosh, sovereign citizens, in my experience, probably one in 50 cases, maybe one in a hundred cases. 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:58.480 The really tough, legitimate, you know, sovereign citizens. 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:04.240 I remember when I with San Bernardino, we had a sovereign citizen who threatened to kill us all, who went to jail. 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:09.039 And while he was in jail, he he was the representative of the nation of Guatemala. 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:14.640 Guatemala sovereign country and the city limits of San Bernardino next to the river. 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:21.920 And while he was in jail because of his threats against local government, we abated the entire nation of Guatemala. 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:22.400 Wow. 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:23.440 Uh yeah, gone. 00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:24.240 You don't believe me? 00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:25.680 See if you can find it on a map. 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:29.119 Okay, not there, right? 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:29.680 Yeah. 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:30.960 Holy cow. 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:31.680 Geez. 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:39.839 200 in-op vehicles, oh two or three single-wide trailers that he was living in and all kinds of stuff, and it all just went away under warrant, right? 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:43.279 We we got his due process, and yeah, and yeah, we did what we had to do. 00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:47.680 Well, and people do, people who disagree with the code, they get their opportunity for due process. 00:27:47.920 --> 00:28:00.880 Many things that code enforcement does, and certainly when you get to the level of imposing fines or taking anything or abating anything or court, there's not just an opportunity for due process, there are multiple opportunities for due process. 00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:02.240 So people get their choice. 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.240 That's a fundamental American concept. 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:05.359 You get your chance to be heard. 00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:10.480 Doesn't mean you win, you don't get guaranteed outcome that everybody agrees with you, but you get to be heard. 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:15.200 I've been to some places, it's like, ooh, where's your appeal process on this? 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:17.119 Oh, we don't we don't give them an appeal. 00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:18.640 Have you heard of the constitution? 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:20.480 You might want to add that in. 00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:22.319 Um, it appeals can be good things. 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:36.079 I mean, appeals where they are not required by law can be both a benefit and a difficulty, but at the same time, giving people a chance to be heard and having a third-party neutral tell them whether they're right or wrong can help compliance. 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:48.000 I I had a a sovereign-ish citizen case in the county of Ventura who they it had started before I got there and it had been trailing for three years, criminal violation, you know. 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:52.799 And I'm like, he had had two or three different public defenders, and it just kept getting reset. 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:59.519 And I'm like, we're never going to get where we need to be on this property through a criminal prosecution, right? 00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:14.559 Even if we find him guilty, it doesn't give me the authority to do anything with this burned-out house, three or four RVs, six different, you know, six by eight by ten foot sheds that homeless people are living in. 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:16.559 And so basically, I said, We're gonna. 00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:18.799 I went to the DA and I said, you're tired of this. 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:20.400 It's not gonna get me where I need to go. 00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:25.039 So we're I'm gonna ask that you just pull it, and then we'll go administratively. 00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:32.480 And so it had been, I think they had been on his property for eight years in criminal court for three. 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:41.680 I took it out of there, we put it in into the admin, got it into receivership, and two years later he didn't own the property anymore, and there was nothing on there. 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:50.799 Yeah, and so and and he he said, I want to, I want, you know, we served him with the receivership petition, and he called me demanding that he get his day in court. 00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:53.200 I said, Let me explain what a receivership is. 00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.720 It is on court, you absolutely will, right? 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:01.519 So, anyway, kind of to that point, you talked about communication with other departments. 00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:08.000 I originally coming into this episode thought it was just communication with members of the public, and that's of course extremely important. 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:17.039 But how important is communicating as a code enforcement officer or a code of forcing manager with your city council or your elected supervisors? 00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:24.720 Yeah, for me, for me, every time I mean I've San Bernardino, Riverside, Chula Vista, Ventura, right? 00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:37.599 I I was employed there, and I always coming in wanted to have dialogue with the elected officials because I don't want them to make a promise I can't keep. 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:45.119 I want them to be their their responses to complaints from their constituents to be based in reality. 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.839 I want to know what's important to them, and I also want them to know what our limitations are. 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:56.000 Because, as you said, most people don't know what code enforcement is, they've kind of fallen into or whatever. 00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:02.079 It is becoming more well known through podcasts like this, through various other media. 00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:11.599 But I, you know, I I would say if you're gonna go have a

public meeting, call me and I'll go, I'll go with you and I'll answer the code enforcement questions for you. 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:12.319 Right, right. 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:20.480 And I haven't had an elect official yet that hasn't, you know, just about done a backflip that I would hey, anytime you want me to go, I'll go. 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:26.880 When I started with Chula Vista, I would get complaints from some of the elected officials, their senior staff and management. 00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:32.559 And and I had a couple of officers like, oh, just because they're elected, think they get to put their stuff to the front. 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:33.920 I go, Well, they do. 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:34.720 Right. 00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:37.039 Sorry, that's a fact of life. 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:44.480 You can't say, I'm not gonna talk to the elected official or look at their case and see if it's a priority and how we can go about doing it. 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:57.039 Because here's the thing they're gonna vote on my budget, which is the help you need staff, and they're also gonna vote on changes, amendments, enhancements, and new ordinances that I need to get my job done. 00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:01.599 So, yeah, I am gonna listen to them and I may tell them, you know what? 00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:06.640 Here's the thing we have an open case on that, it's pending, we're going through some stuff. 00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:12.000 It's it's gonna be another six months before we get to where we need to get and be honest with them. 00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:15.359 Don't don't you know make it all sunshine and roses. 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:18.000 Oh, yeah, we'll have to think about it in two weeks because you won't. 00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:18.880 Something will happen. 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:19.680 You won't. 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.640 Give them give them the truth, and then guess what? 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:28.720 They'll when I needed votes in the city of Chula Vista when we passed the uh vacant property registration ordinance. 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:29.440 Guess what? 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:38.240 I had relationships with all those elected officials in the city manager and the city attorney's office, and I got what I needed to get to do what we needed to do. 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:52.400 And I think it was based on the fact that they trusted me because for years before I had built that level of relationship and trust that they knew if I said this is a problem and this is what we need to do, they said, then let's give it to you. 00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:53.759 That is so critical. 00:32:53.839 --> 00:33:03.440 I mean, the the electeds are the governing body for the city, and even beyond that, they are a reflection of presumably of a community's desires. 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:18.319 And so it's so important that they know what code enforcement does because whether they do or don't, they are invariably getting complaints and pressures from their community to solve these quality of life problems that guess who code enforcement solves. 00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:18.880 Yeah. 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:24.720 And I had very few instances in in, you know, gosh, how long have I been in code enforcement? 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:29.839 25, 30 years, 40 years in in local government total, 41 now. 00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:37.279 But it was very rare that a elected official would contact me with something that we hadn't already heard about. 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.680 It and it it maybe it wasn't a priority. 00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:45.200 I have always tried to create a priority system because, like you say, we're overworked, overwhelmed, can't get to everything. 00:33:45.440 --> 00:34:00.000 And so it's like, okay, and so the priorities were priority ones were life, health, safety, dangerous buildings, something's gonna blow up or fall down if it's involving you know the elderly and anything from an elected official. 00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:01.440 That was a priority one. 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:09.360 And I would always tell the elected official refer them back to us before you send it to us. 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:12.880 If they've said they already talked to us, then by all means let us know. 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:18.719 But you will train your constituents to go directly to you rather than using us. 00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:25.440 And here's the truth of the matter: we have a priority system, and we need to be able to have that priority system. 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:25.920 Guess what? 00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:45.760 An overhyped fifth in the backyard through a council member, yep, it'll be a number one, but it really is a number three on the level of priorities, and and it should be because we shouldn't be spending our time on an overhyped backyard fence when I've got a substandard housing unit with no heat, and you know, and it's in the middle of winter or the living in there. 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.119 We have to be able to get the most bang for our buck. 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:51.440 Yeah, I totally agree with you. 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:52.800 And then what about this scenario? 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:55.280 What about a pissed-off reporting party? 00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:57.199 Any tips for communicating with them? 00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:00.239 Because they're calling and saying, I am you're taking forever. 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.719 You're not listening to me, you're not addressing my needs. 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:03.280 You know what? 00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:05.119 I'm gonna sue the city, right? 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:11.519 So, what what are some tips for dealing with the the reporting party who's not pissed off yet, and then the one who is pissed off? 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:14.159 Well, I've never had that happen. 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:15.920 Okay, that's a lie. 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:20.000 One of the things that that helped me back clear back to the city of San Bernardino. 00:35:20.320 -->

00:35:21.119 I mean, we were overwhelmed. 00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:25.519 And my little when I was in the field as a code enforcement officer, and I'm I mean, that's where I started, right? 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:29.599 As as the author, co-author of this book, it's I'm not an academic that's not done this. 00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:35.119 I've been in the trenches, you know, I've I've I've stood ankle deep in raw sewage in somebody's driveway, right? 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:36.639 I I know what that's like. 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:42.480 But for me, there was no set process, there was no procedural thing to follow. 00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:45.840 Some things went a little faster, a similar thing would go a lot slower. 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:47.440 I never understood why. 00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:50.800 And so I started drafting policies and procedures. 00:35:50.960 --> 00:36:05.360 I actually sat down, and before Visio or any of the process mapping, before I knew even knew what Lean Six Sigma was, I process mapped what we did in San Bernardino and all the variables about oh, they can appeal here and they can appeal here. 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:15.920 And I literally took huge graph paper, taped it together because it was about nine feet long, and then color-coded with colored pencils, different steps. 00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:23.199 And for me, when I would go to the neighborhood meeting or when somebody would complain and say, Well, let me come out to your house, or why don't you come in here? 00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:33.760 And I would roll that out and show them these are the processes by law and and local policy that we have to go through to get down to here. 00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:39.760 Each one of these is you know, this is 30 days, this is 60 days, this is 90 days, this is another 30 days. 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:41.519 We're right here on this process. 00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:50.159 So before I can get before I can get a warrant and go out and abate that, or before I can get them into receivership, I have these more that this many more steps. 00:36:51.039 --> 00:37:01.840 People think that they can call, and and I'll say that 311 has not been our our our friend, where it's like you call in and say, Oh, there's a pothole, and I say, Okay, great, we'll have that fixed in 72 hours. 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:03.360 That's great because you drive that bus. 00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.840 You can determine when that pothole is going to be filled, right? 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:13.199 Yeah, I can't determine when they're gonna remove the in-op vehicle off their driveway or when they're gonna fix that roof or when they're gonna board up that that vacant property. 00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:19.599 They're afforded due process to that, and I have to, unless there's exigent circumstances, right? 00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:31.199 This is the first time we've been out, and I've watched folks claim exigent circumstance when they've been out there for every week for three months and nothing's changed, and now they're gonna board it up summarily. 00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:33.119 No, you're not, right? 00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:48.239 You you're into a process now that you've got to finish, and and so to me, information and having a policy and a procedure written out where you can give estimated time frames in there and show people where you are in that process. 00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:52.079 There's a again, you're not gonna win everybody over, but there's an appreciation. 00:37:52.239 --> 00:38:00.000 Everybody's had a process that they've had to go through at a work situation where they've been the employee that they've had to do these steps before they get done. 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:11.280 And so they understand that they may not be happy about it, they're not gonna, you know, pat you on the back on the way out, but they'll have a better understanding of of the hurdles, the legal hurdles that guess what? 00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:18.000 If you were the recipient of that action, you wouldn't want the same courtesy and legality afforded to you. 00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:20.480 And so just explaining that helps. 00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:23.360 It doesn't always solve it, but it helps. 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:24.880 Yeah, I agree with you. 00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:29.440 I think just being straight up with them, this is where we're at, and we're in the process, and this is what comes next. 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:32.480 I think gone are the days where it's like, I'm sorry, I can't comment. 00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:34.079 And it's like you can't comment. 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:35.599 I'm the reporting party, right? 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.400 So we should, you know, we should let them know. 00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:41.920 I think the honesty where we can is always appropriate. 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:44.880 I think the transparency where it's possible can be helpful. 00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:46.239 And then what about humor? 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:55.039 I think humor is not often associated with code enforcement, although, frankly, some of the things we see are mind-boggling, if not humorous. 00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:58.719 But what is the role of humor? 00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:03.440 And is it important even to have a sense of humor in code enforcement? 00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:06.400 I think there's no space for humor in what we do. 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.159 Uh no, uh well, I don't know if you know this or not. 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:14.960 I used to do stand-up comedy, I was an improv performer for about a decade. 00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:19.760 And to me, life is a punchline waiting for the joke to be written. 00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:23.519 So you kind of have to find that, right? 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:31.519 And that's not to say we make fun of people or or we, you know, we we're flippant about their circumstance or their situation. 00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:38.880 I'd be very I'd I love humor, it's been it's worked well for me in a lot of

situations, again, not all, right? 00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:42.719 And we want to be careful how we apply that. 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:50.559 I always say that it you're pretty safe with self-deprecating humor if you're making fun of yourself or you're the punchline, right? 00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:58.400 I don't take myself very seriously, I take what I do pretty seriously, and there's a big difference there. 00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:05.599 I I recall we had a huge substandard housing case, 80 units, and they were getting an injunction to close it down. 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:13.920 And if I recall correctly, the property owner owned a bunch of other apartments that were all substandard, and they were trying to fold all of those in. 00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:16.320 Anyway, we had been out there, we had closed the place. 00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:19.039 I want to say this was the second time we closed it. 00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:27.440 There was just horrendous conditions, and I'm on the stand testifying, and the defense attorney explained some of the conditions. 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:30.719 Oh, there was this and there was that, and there was mold, and he just went like this. 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:31.840 Oh, mold? 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:32.559 There was mold. 00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:38.400 This is before, long before the state legislator voted that code enforcement could call out mold. 00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:40.079 And so he said, Oh, there was mold. 00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:40.480 Well, Mr. 00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:42.800 Leaper, tell us about your expertise in mold. 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:44.639 And I said, I have no expertise in mold. 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:48.079 Well, when did when was did you take college-level biology classes? 00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:49.119 No, I no, I didn't. 00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:50.639 When was the last time you had a biology class? 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:52.320 Oh gosh, probably high school. 00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:56.800 Oh, oh, so you're you're you feel you're qualified to say that that was mold. 00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:58.480 I said, Yes, I do. 00:40:58.719 --> 00:40:59.840 Well, isn't it true, Mr. 00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:01.840 Leaper, that cheese is mold? 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:10.159 And I said, It is absolutely true that cheese is mold, but not one tenant was wiping bread on the wall to make a sandwich. 00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:11.199 Wow. 00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:13.519 Humor, yeah, right on the stand. 00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:14.480 Also pointing. 00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:15.280 Yeah. 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:16.880 We won, we got what we needed. 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:20.559 But after that, the city attorney said, That was one of the funniest things I've ever heard. 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:21.920 Don't ever do that again. 00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:22.559 Oh, right. 00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:26.800 So you get you gotta know your crown on humor, but you were making a point too. 00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:27.840 And frankly, it was humor. 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:30.320 You gotta know your audience. 00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:35.920 And if you start trying to to interact and have a laugh or two, and it's not happening, stop. 00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:37.119 Sure, right? 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:38.000 Recognize that. 00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:51.039 That's that whole recognizing the tone, and so you you gotta you gotta kind of what what I call listen in the ears of the hearer, and and the only way to do that is to watch their reaction to what you're saying and how you're communicating. 00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:58.400 You also raise an interesting point that an improv background, among many backgrounds, may be helpful in code enforcement. 00:41:58.480 --> 00:41:59.440 Is that fair to say? 00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:00.320 I think so. 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:06.000 In fact, I teach a class called improv leadership, and another one calls whose fault is it anyway. 00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:06.400 Yep. 00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.159 And the improv leadership is about the power of yes, right? 00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:14.880 Improv is all about accepting an offer, saying yes, and adding to it. 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:26.320 And so that doesn't mean that you know we just cave in, but but I've seen too many officers go out and they have no already on their lips before anybody speaks. 00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:28.079 Listen, guess what? 00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:33.679 There may be a nugget in there of something that somebody's telling you that you can that you can grab onto. 00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:36.000 Like I talked about, you know, the 73 gremlin. 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:37.039 Oh, what a great car, right? 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:51.440 You you may find a little bit of common ground, and I'm not saying you be overly familiar or you know, give them your social security number and your mother's maiden name, but but to to to to build that rapport and that relationship with them. 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.320 I would tell you I had a a case, I was new. 00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.159 This guy calls, how you doing, Mr. 00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:56.639 Leaper? 00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:57.519 Hey, I'm doing pretty good. 00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:59.039 Hey, I I understand you like camping. 00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:00.239 I'm like, yeah, okay. 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:00.960 Who is this? 00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:02.559 Oh, yeah, I'm I'm so and so. 00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:07.199 And and you and your daughters go up to the eastern Sierras, and I'm like, okay, who are you? 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:12.960 And so I pull this up, and it's and it's yeah, I'm like, okay, I'm just saying, oh yeah, thank you. 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:13.760 Glad you called. 00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:15.440 Let me get your number, I'll call you back. 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:17.679 And so I started asking staff, who's this guy? 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:21.679 Well, this guy was a retired marine EOD, right? 00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:22.880 Explosives expert. 00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:24.960

He did several tours in num. 00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:26.719 He was a hoarder. 00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:31.920 They have been on his property before, and now we're back, and it's worse. 00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:36.880 And so I'm like, How in the world did this guy find this stuff out? 00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:38.800 Simple Google search. 00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:43.920 My wife had been interviewed by the paper about camping recipes. 00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:44.800 Guess what? 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:50.800 Boom, leaper, camping, so he was able to gain some of that information. 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:54.079 So I googled him back, found out he was an Eagle Scout. 00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:56.239 And so I called him back and I said, Hey, how you doing? 00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:57.920 Hey, so Eagle Scout, that's pretty good. 00:43:58.000 --> 00:43:59.760 And I did the same thing back to him, and he just laughed. 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:02.079 He just laughed, right? 00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:05.280 And so we started building a little bit of a rapport. 00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:05.920 Right. 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:08.480 Unfortunately, he wouldn't comply. 00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:10.079 We had to get him into hearing. 00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:15.679 In the hearing, you know, he's he was on a rental property, had five acres of crap on a one-acre parcel. 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:18.079 He had hoarded himself out of his own house. 00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:19.679 That's why he was renting. 00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:21.440 And so we got to. 00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:30.400 I asked the hearing officer, I said, Yeah, I'm going to need daily fines because we've got to motivate him somehow, knowing full well that the daily fines probably were never going to be paid. 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:37.599 Yes, the property owner is responsible, but he also doesn't want to put this disabled American vet out on the street. 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:39.760 He's in a between a rock and a hard place, too. 00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:41.440 I could have just hammered the property owner. 00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:44.400 He would have evicted this guy, wouldn't have solved nothing, right? 00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:47.039 He would have just found another place to live and hoarded that out. 00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:47.519 Sure. 00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:49.599 So we got fines issued. 00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:56.880 I got in the order that I could reduce them based on significant progress, and that I would be the one who would determine that. 00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:01.519 After we got about$10,000 in fines in place, I told him, I'll tell you what, you're a vet. 00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:03.840 Do you have do you have VA benefits? 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:04.719 I do. 00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:06.000 I said, I talked to him. 00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:08.239 I said, Do you think maybe you might have a touch of PTSD? 00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:10.159 I know people that were in numb, right? 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:12.000 He goes, Yeah, probably. 00:45:12.159

--> 00:45:13.440 So I made a deal with him. 00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:20.079 You get some help through through the vets, and you clean a 10 by 10 foot section every week, and I'll reduce your fines. 00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:22.159 And after about eight months, guess what? 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:23.920 Property was in compliance. 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:27.360 His daughter called me and said, Thank you for giving my dad back. 00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:30.559 And so is that traditional code enforcement? 00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:34.480 It should be, but it's not because it took a lot of time. 00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:37.119 But it actually had a result. 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:42.239 We could have gone out, abated it, but we'd already done that once, and in within a year or two, it's right back. 00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:42.800 Yeah. 00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:50.880 And so if he had said, No, I'm not going, I ain't gonna do it, well, we'd have gone the traditional route, we'd have got his fines up, I'd have told the property owner, you got to do what you got to do. 00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:55.599 But we were fortunate that that he really did want some help. 00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:00.800 He just didn't know how to go about it, and he hit and he hadn't the right motivation hadn't hit him. 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:05.920 And so so yeah, so we we've got to be creative in how in how we do this. 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:10.719 And the only way we knew any of that was we had to have a conversation and we built started building a relationship. 00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:16.079 You know, I code enforced is so interesting that normally I'd say you could write a book about it, but you did. 00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:18.159 And so I think that's that's really great. 00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:32.000 So, Doug, as we as it's been a great conversation and so interesting, and I do feel like there could just be voluminous books just with stories as exemplars from code enforcement on how to deal with different situations and what works and what doesn't. 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:39.760 I know for me, I have learned so many things from my mistakes in in this kind of wild west area of code enforcement over the years. 00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:44.320 What are three, and I think we want to leave our listeners with this one here. 00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:48.719 We have some new listeners, new code enforcement people coming on into the profession. 00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:55.119 What are three communication tips that you would give someone just starting out in code enforcement? 00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:59.920 Listen more than you speak, listen past the word, right? 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:03.679 You get into active listening, you can take courses online, right? 00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:06.800 LinkedIn learning, they're they're everywhere. 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:13.679 Learn how to listen and not be formulating your response. 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.119 Yeah, right. 00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:24.800 That's true listening, and I'm still working on that because I always have some witty comeback that comes to me in the middle of your sentence that I want to and I and I stop listening. 00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:35.280 So listen more than you talk, learn to listen attentively and actively, and then I would say, like it with the DMV thing. 00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:42.400 How would you want to be approached if it was your property and you may not know that it was a violation? 00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:43.840 A lot of these folks don't, right? 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:45.920 They have no idea that they can't do this or that. 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:48.960 And so that that would be the three I think I would start with. 00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:50.159 Yeah, that's a great point. 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:51.840 Can you repeat number two, though, please? 00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:52.559 I wasn't listening. 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:53.039 Just kidding. 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:54.320 All right, so it's great. 00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:55.280 No, that's great. 00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:57.920 No, those are excellent points, excellent tips. 00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:12.320 You know, we get so deep in the world of code enforcement, it's easy to forget that a lot of people don't know these codes, it doesn't come naturally to them, although they live in a world that either is or isn't complying with codes. 00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:12.960 Yeah. 00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:16.559 So I I completely I knew very little about it before I got into it, right? 00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:17.840 It's like, what, what? 00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:21.679 You know, sometimes it actually takes a reminder, here's a book idea. 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:27.679 The why, you know, one of our first guests on this podcast was Eugene Alper, who wrote a book on the history of code enforcement. 00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:28.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:29.679 I know Eugene, great book. 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:31.360 Great guy, great book. 00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:35.840 And we talked about how so much code enforcement comes from tragedy. 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:36.719 We forget that. 00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:43.199 So another communication tip I would just proffer is read about it, read about the why, understand the why behind it. 00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:48.000 Because then you can communicate to people, hey, here's why it matters, for example, an overgrown lawn. 00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:56.639 It's not just about wanting to see a you know golf course look lawn, it's also about rodent infestations and transmission, you know, disease. 00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:57.199 Yep. 00:48:57.360 --> 00:48:58.000 So that's great. 00:48:58.079 --> 00:48:58.400 Wonderful. 00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:04.800 Well, it's you know, you go you you go to the triangle shirt waste fire, the Chicago fire, and various things that we've all been through. 00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:07.360 Where does the new Simpson ties come from? 00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:08.719 The last hurricane, right? 00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:11.360 They go in and they see what performed well and what didn't. 00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:14.800 And so, you know, insurance companies wrote the first codes. 00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:15.920 I believe it. 00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:17.760 Because they wanted to know what they were insuring. 00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.239 Yeah, so I would say, hey, can I do a plug? 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:21.280 Yeah, of course. 00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:22.320 Go for it. 00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:25.280 Hi, I'm Doug Leaper, and this is my book. 00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:28.559 And you should get a copy at Solano.com. 00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:32.400 That's S-O-L-A-N-O.com. 00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:35.519 Strategic Code Enforcement, Solano.com. 00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:36.559 Thank you so much, Doug. 00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:39.119 Doug, it's been a great, great conversation. 00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:51.599 So much of code enforcement, hinges on effective communication, figuring out who is going to comply, who won't comply, why we can't get compliance, what the problem is in solving that. 00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:53.280 That will return dividends. 00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:57.519 And who we need in our jurisdiction to help us because we can't do everything. 00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:58.400 Great point. 00:49:58.480 --> 00:49:59.119 Thank you, Doug. 00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:00.159 It's been wonderful to have you. 00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:01.280 Thanks, my friend. 00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:02.480 Alrighty. 00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:06.480 Thank you for joining us on this journey. 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:12.480 If you enjoyed what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate, and review us wherever you're listening right now. 00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:13.920 Until next time.