Stop Chasing Goals – Do THIS Instead의 전체 녹취록

destination, is just learning something new. 73 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:17.199 As long as you've learned something new, this is success. 74 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:20.080 And that may not look like what you have predicted 75 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:25.120 when we started, right, and this looks like for a scientists, 76 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:29.599 like a cycle of experimentation. They ask a question, They're like, Okay, 77 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:32.719 what is going on here, Let's formulate the research question, 78 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.439 let's test it, and then let's see what happens. Right, Well, 79 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:40.000 those cycles of growth is really how a lot of 80 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:44.599 ancient civilizations and ancient philosophies recommend the way you approach 81 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:48.080 human growth as well. Right, It's all fields and cycles 82 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:51.919 and circles and seasons. It's never that very linear path 83 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:54.360 that is predetermined and that you have to follow with 84 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:58.639 specific milestones and goals that are that mean failure if 85 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:02.479 you don't reach them. Right, It's about transformation and reinventing yourself. 86 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:06.840 So to me, that's the main thing about reinventing our 87 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:10.560 relationship to goals is really letting go of this linear 88 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:13.960 approach to them and having a more psychical. 89 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:15.400 I love that idea too, and it is it is 90 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:18.199 something interesting too that you know, I was always when 91 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:20.959 I was studying anthropology as a you know, in school 92 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:22.480 back in the day, it was like I guess I 93 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:24.040 still study it today too, but like, you know, when 94 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:26.240 I was formally studying it, you know, I would always 95 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:28.439 be intrigued when we would find a group or culture 96 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:31.680 or you know, when folks were talking about the syxical 97 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:34.360 notion of time versus a linear notion, and like, even 98 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:37.160 thinking about that is really interesting when one we kind 99 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:38.879 of talk about, you know, time moves forward, right. 100 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:40.959 We even used like the idea of progress right when 101 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:42.399 you write about in the book too, of this idea of. 102 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:44.680 Like progress is a directional or like a kind of 103 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:48.720 orientation that we're moving in a certain you know, pathway, 104 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:52.560 and like that, like, I think we often don't always 105 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:54.439 connect the idea of like time as being linear and 106 00:04:54.439 --> 00:04:56.360 then also our goals as a thing that like we 107 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:58.120 move forward and do x y z blah blah, even 108 00:04:58.120 --> 00:04:59.680 though like that's one hundred percent how we make it 109 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:01.040 to do right and how we think about the. 110 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.759 Pathway that we're going down. 111 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:05.439 But then the right's idea of like seasons is a 112 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:07.160 great example there of like we all know what a 113 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:09.120 season like, there's four of them, you know, and they 114 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:11.040 move and they move our year in a way. And 115 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.040 like recognizing that idea is super fun. Then that of 116 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:15.600 course I'm going to put my nerd hat and be like, 117 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:17.279 oh yeah, we can talk about chakras and wheels too, 118 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:18.800 and like everything is kind of turning and moving in 119 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:21.759 and on itself in cyclical and spiral time, and so 120 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:23.879 that is I think a very cool way to help 121 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:24.759 us ref rethink that. 122 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.560 And so I'm curious about this too, because the other. 123 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:30.600 Thing that you said here that was was I want 124 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:32.519 to think with is like they did when we were 125 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:34.720 talking about what scientific you know, thinking is doing, and 126 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:35.959 like we talk about what you predict something that will 127 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:37.959 happen and make a hypothesis that I'm going to do X, 128 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:39.360 and then we're going to see why I result, and 129 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:41.319 if we do or don't see it, that's still helpful. 130 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.079 And this is something that that I've seen too in. 131 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:47.399 Terms of you know, publication around kind of pure reviewed 132 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:50.360 journal articles that there's like a positivity bias, like I 133 00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:52.720 want to publish that something happened, meaning there's there's an 134 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:54.639 anti negativity bias not that like we don't want to 135 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:56.240 say negative result, but we don't want to say something 136 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.879 nothing happened. But that's totally useful for science too, to 137 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:00.800 say we did not find and the change when we 138 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.680 did X, you know, and like why didn't happen? And 139 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:05.879 so even this interesting idea that that like I'm curious 140 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:07.079 how we think about this, Like when we say we 141 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:09.600 predict the thing, we want to see a kind of 142 00:06:09.639 -->

00:06:11.959 positive change results, and like we look away from one 143 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:14.600 that that feels negative, and so that kind of pushes 144 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:16.199 I feel like it builds a bit of that linearity 145 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:18.519 right where it's like if I don't see a specific 146 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:20.240 type of change that I that I predict I'm going 147 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:22.240 to see, then it somehow it doesn't doesn't count. 148 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:23.759 Does that Does that work? 149 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:27.000 M I love? I love that you're mentioning this because 150 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:30.680 you know there's a big movement at the moment in 151 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:35.959 science for open science and pre registering studies during your 152 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:40.439 study is basically posting your protocol online for everybody to see, 153 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:42.720 and then you run the study, and then you can't 154 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.480 go back and change the pole or what you were 155 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:47.720 you were you said you were going to do based 156 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:51.000 on the results, which sounds crazy that this is not 157 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:55.959 the norm, right, It's not so, so you're forced to 158 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.920 accept and to publish whatever results you get, whether positive 159 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:02.480 or negative, or whatever results you get, you have to 160 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:05.199 publish them. And I feel like in the way that 161 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:09.279 you manage your goals and the way you design personal experiments, 162 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:12.519 which I took about in the book, this is why 163 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:17.279 it's so important to define what is the experiment you're 164 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:19.279 going to run, and what are the parameters, and to 165 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:22.399 stick to it until the end of the experiment, and 166 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:26.199 to really withhold judgment until you're done. So, for example, 167 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:28.839 if you say that you're going to run an experiment 168 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:33.360 of publishing a new podcast episode every week for a 169 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:36.800 six months, you can't stop in the middle and say, like, ef, 170 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:39.199 I don't know like this and I'm not sure this 171 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:43.040 is working and then decide that nothing happened and not 172 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:44.959 learn anything from it. I mean, you can, but that 173 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.120 wouldn't be a very good way or useful way of 174 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:50.439 running an experiment. The useful way of doing this is 175 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:54.000 you decide what you're going to do, you run the experiment, 176 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.319 you collect all of that data without any judgment yet, 177 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:01.040 and at the end of the experiment, You look and 178 00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:03.920 you reflect and you ask yourself, Okay, did I like this? 179 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.600 Did I enjoy it? Was that good? What benefits did 180 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:09.519 it bring? Or was that horrible? Maybe I hated every 181 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:12.560 secle of it. And that's data too. That's also useful 182 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:14.680 for you to learn and to grow and to decide 183 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:16.920 what your next experiment is going to be. So you 184 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:21.000 can also take some of that new approach to science 185 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:25.720 that we have now that is more open and more honest, 186 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.399 I want to say, and apply that to the way 187 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:29.720 you run experiments and your day. 188 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:30.160 I love that. 189 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:32.679 Actually, yeah, it's because it's we do see like an 190 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:34.919 ongoing conversations too, in terms of like a desire for 191 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.840 more transparency and openness across the board, right, whether it 192 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:40.279 is like how we're doing science, whether it's politics, you know, 193 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:41.960 whether it's how I'm getting my degree, because it's like 194 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.960 people love also these kind of more authentic conversations where 195 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:48.080 it's like two people talking about their challenges working, getting 196 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.000 a job, trying to find something out, versus like here's 197 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:51.159 the five things you got to do to get your 198 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:53.279 resume to have it ready for the you know whatever 199 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:56.679 the interview and it's interesting to kind of kind of 200 00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:59.080 note that like there is this that desire to see 201 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:00.840 and like that can be a place also to the 202 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:03.039 notions of like kind of personal experimentation of of what 203 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:05.159 I can do with my life, which I think, I 204 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.120 think is really nice, especially because we're kind of seeing again, 205 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.559 like we're running up to these these sort of different 206 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:13.960 walls now or different kind of limitations of like this 207 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:16.720 kind of linear path doesn't quite do it for me, right, 208 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:19.200 And like especially you know, we're seeing you know obviously 209 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.039 AI and things are changing in technology, you know, how 210 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.039 we are learning, how we're playing and spending time together 211 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:28.799 on social media this before,

right, and kind of changing 212 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:30.639 how we communicate with one another, so that this interesting 213 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.080 idea of like we can't just keep doing what we've 214 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:35.440 always done, right, we have to kind of rethink these pieces, 215 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.200 and like I mean, I guess to help comcrotize this too. Also, 216 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:41.240 like you know, you have a really interesting story also 217 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:43.039 that you you know, you you did the tech you 218 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:44.840 did the tech pathway right, you kind of found your 219 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:48.360 way into the heart of the Google mecha, you know, 220 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:51.919 and then realize that things weren't quite working out the 221 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:53.759 way you had thought. And so I mean, tell folks, 222 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:55.039 if you're not familiar with your story, like a little 223 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:56.840 bit about how that happened and how that like kind 224 00:09:56.840 --> 00:09:58.159 of cracked open the idea of like, wait, let me 225 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:01.279 rethink literally how I'm going to be doing my career 226 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:02.840 pathway and my life could be. 227 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:08.679 So I used to have I used to follow a 228 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:13.879 very very linear care pathway. Actually I went to a 229 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:16.720 pretty good school. I tried to get good grades, and 230 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:18.960 then I got a job at Google. And once I 231 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:23.200 found myself there, I discovered that they had an also 232 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:30.559 fairly linear way of managing success, really defining it, codifying it, 233 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:35.960 and then in a very kind of almost yeah, I 234 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:39.480 guess Google is a company made of engineers, right, So 235 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:42.799 they had really engineered what success looked like and how 236 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:44.759 it worked inside of the company. So you had this 237 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:47.840 red brick that was telling you exactly what to do, 238 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:50.120 when to do it, what kind of projects to work on, 239 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:52.279 what skills to be able to demonstrate, and if you 240 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.080 did that, and if you followed that re brick, you 241 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:58.720 would end up climbing the ladder again in a very 242 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:02.799 linear way. But you had high visibility and clarity in 243 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:08.639 terms of what success looked like. And I felt like 244 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:12.360 which was a deep realization for me, but it really 245 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.679 felt like to me after a while, as if someone 246 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.320 had spoiled the movie. I knew exactly what

was going 247 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.799 to happen, and I somehow lost interest in the game 248 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:27.480 because I knew exactly what would happen to the main character. 249 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:32.919 When I left Google, I decided to start a startup, 250 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.159 and that was also interesting because I really thought I 251 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:38.840 was leaving that linear path, but I ended up repeating 252 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:40.440 a lot of the same things that I was doing 253 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:44.679 at Google. I tried to follow a playbook, I downloaded 254 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.240 all of the case studies from other startups, and I 255 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:50.960 tried to figure out how to climb that ladder just 256 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:55.000 a different letter. And it's only when my startup failed 257 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:59.159 and I found myself completely lost with no clear next 258 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:01.759 run on the ladder that I could climb, that I 259 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:06.240 had to finally stop and take a moment to reflect 260 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:10.759 and ask myself, what is it that I truly want 261 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.919 to explore? What am I actually curious about? If external 262 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:21.120 validation and money was not part of the equation. What 263 00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:24.080 is something I would want to be doing every day 264 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:28.240 when I wake up, even if nobody was watching. And 265 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:30.879 for me, it's always been the brain. I've always been 266 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:33.559 fascinated with the way we think, the way we feel, 267 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:36.279 and so I went back to school to study neuroscience 268 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:39.120 and ended up on the path that I am on today, 269 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:43.480 which is very wiggly. I generally have no idea where 270 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.639 I'm going. You know, I just wrote a book, i 271 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:49.679 finished my PhD. I'm also running a small business, I'm 272 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:52.440 running online, I'm doing a bit of speaking here and there. 273 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:57.120 And the reason why I love this path today is 274 00:12:57.159 --> 00:12:59.159 that I have no idea what's going to happen in 275 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:01.159 the movie. I don't know what's going to happen next, 276 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:03.679 and I'm a little bit surprised almost every day with 277 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.279 what's on my calendar. And I think that's the. 278 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:07.480 Way that resonates. 279 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:10.559 And I think that that's great too, that like you 280 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:12.879 kind of recognize when things aren't working, like how do 281 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:16.519 you then sort of reconjigure things? But then it's like 282 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.320 it does require this moment. And something important that you're 283 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.519 write about too is that we have to be okay 284 00:13:21.559 --> 00:13:23.639 with that discomfort of not really knowing what what is 285 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:25.000 the next thing, But at the same time as as 286 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:26.759 you know it too, like there's the when you have 287 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.080 a curiosity mindset to it sentence says, Oh, this is exciting. 288 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:30.679 I don't know what's going to happen. And this is 289 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:31.919 one of these things. I mean, there's two things that. 290 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:33.480 Actually stuck out there that I think are really important 291 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.360 for us to think about. And I recognized when I was, like, 292 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:39.279 you know, reading your story, that one can be in 293 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.000 the kind of career treadmill and then both be burnt 294 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.039 out by the work and like doing too much and 295 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.200 then also bored at the same time, and like we 296 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.320 also don't realize like those seem like they're antithetical, like 297 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:49.720 how could I else both be like doing too much 298 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:51.320 and be like I don't want to do any of this, 299 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.080 you know, And like I've I've seen that in myself too, 300 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.159 in terms of like you know, putting work in kind 301 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:58.320 of the wrong pathway and then you realize that like 302 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:00.600 you're doing both these and it's like the board parts, 303 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:02.279 I think your point is really important. It's like I 304 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:03.840 know where the movie goes. I know exactly how to 305 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:05.840 what this ladder climbing would look like. I know where 306 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:08.039 I would go, and I can see it like and 307 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:10.240 like assessed to I want to be in that that 308 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:12.879 spot you know, and at the same time, I'm so busy, 309 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:15.000 I don't really have the energy to do that. And 310 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:17.559 how do I put those two signals together and say, wait, 311 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:20.159 maybe this is not the right piece. And the other 312 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.399 side is is this notion of for some for many 313 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:24.600 of us. I mean, it's scary to be like I 314 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:26.279 don't know what the next thing would be, right, and 315 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.720 so it's like this kind of curiosity versus kind of 316 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.159 reactive mindset, and and so I'm curious, like to kind 317 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:33.960 of help help folks

think about how do we get 318 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:35.320 out of this box? And I feel like I'm kind 319 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.519 of stuck and I'm either burnt out and board or 320 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:39.720 or one or the other. But I'm kind of afraid 321 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:41.519 of like I don't know what to do next, right 322 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:43.399 either if I don't have the resources or I don't 323 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:45.039 know what the pathway, Like, how do I kind of 324 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:47.159 help put that mindset together in terms of being more 325 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:49.080 more curious versus reactive. 326 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:53.759 I guess yeah, I think you'll you'll like that term, 327 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:57.919 considering that you're an anthro apologized. But in the book 328 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:03.200 I use the term self anthropology. And what I encourage 329 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:06.279 people to do is, again, if you think about the 330 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:10.840 scientific method and that cycle of experimentation. Scientists don't just 331 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:14.600 start testing stuff right there's a phase of observation. You 332 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:18.200 just observe how things are right now, and then you 333 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:20.720 ask yourself, how could they be different or why they're 334 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:23.320 working this way. Now, let's test this by designing an 335 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:27.720 experiment and collect data. But it all starts always with observation. 336 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:32.080 And what I call self anthropology in a bit of 337 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:35.759 a cheeky way, is basically the idea that you're going 338 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:40.120 to pretend that you're an anthropologist studying your own life 339 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.840 and the same way an anthropologist goes and studies a 340 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:47.559 different culture and look at it with fresh eyes, asking 341 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.399 why are they doing things this way? Why are they're 342 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:53.399 communicating this way? And why are you doing approaching this 343 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:55.679 in disorder and not that one? Why is this more 344 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:59.919 important to them than that other thing? And taking no 345 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.519 and really again without any judgment, just looking at how 346 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:09.279 things are working in that environment, you can learn a 347 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:13.799 lot about your life and you can discover patterns that 348 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.840 you may not have noticed in the past because of 349 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:20.399 exactly what you just described earlier. You're so easy trying 350 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:23.360 to climb that ladder that you never take the time 351 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.000 to take a little step back and really ask yourself,

wait, 352 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:29.399 why am I even doing this thing? And why am 353 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:34.080 I doing it this way? So I encourage people who 354 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:36.360 are in this situation feeling a little bit stuck, not 355 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:40.559 quite sure what to do next, to just go back 356 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:43.080 to starting with observation. You don't need to have the 357 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.120 solution yet, you don't need to have a plan yet. 358 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:50.200 You just need to observe what is currently working, what 359 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:53.519 is currently not working for you, just taking little notes 360 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:57.080 and in a very practical way. An exercise that I 361 00:16:57.159 --> 00:16:59.679 do with members of my community is I tell them, 362 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:04.640 for twenty four hours, you're becoming the anthrologist untroplgious of 363 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.680 your own life. You can do that in your Apple 364 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:10.400 notes and your Google keep, whatever notes you're taking on 365 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:13.480 your phone, and anytime you notice something interesting as you 366 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:15.680 go about your day, you take a notes. That could 367 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:18.160 be after a conversation with someone where you're like, oh, 368 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.880 I feel weirdly energized after talking for twenty minutes about 369 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.400 this obscure topic with the colleague, or that could be 370 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:29.519 things like, oh, I feel really drained after giving this presentation, 371 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:33.079 or I was feeling anxious all morning before this meeting 372 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:37.279 little observations like this, just do that for twenty four hours. 373 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.279 Those are going to be the seeds for you to 374 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:42.880 then decide what you want to try to tweak and 375 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:44.519 play with and the experiment with. 376 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:45.359 Yeah, that's great. 377 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.160 I think it's it is interesting because oftentimes we want 378 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:52.000 to add that value judgment right away is like am 379 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:53.519 I either seeing a thing or I'm not seeing a 380 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:56.640 thing right or that, Yeah, the presentation was hard, but 381 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:58.200 I don't then say it. Let me observe and actually, 382 00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:00.400 how is I emotionally feeling? How is I physically feeling? 383 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.039 How was I saying other people reacting in the scenario 384 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:06.559 or did I feel energized? And like that is a 385 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.839 really important thing that yes, obviously cool plug for anthropology, 386 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:11.960 you know, but like this bonus too because even this 387 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.200 idea of kind of withholding judgment, I think is really important, 388 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:18.519 right and probeague of mine Jay Hasburg, you know athopologists, 389 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:20.640 He's been at metaphor a long time. You know, it's 390 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.839 also in the tech sector, Like wrote a book called 391 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.200 ethnographic Thinking, and one of the kind of features that 392 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:28.160 like goes with design thinking is this idea of withholding 393 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.160 judgment as we're observing as we're getting a sense of 394 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:31.920 like what it is that we're seeing, because we do 395 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.880 want to be like that's either unimportant data or that 396 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.319 one's the most important data, even that like interrogating why 397 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.079 why is this more or less important? 398 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:41.920 Right is? I think it's a really. 399 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:44.160 Important part to be able to kind of learn to 400 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.160 pay attention to right and have that kind of curiosity 401 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.240 and willingness to do so, because it is tricky and 402 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:50.720 uncomfortable to be like, let me just watch how I 403 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.160 feel and watch how this is happening, and like as 404 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:54.839 if I was an alien coming down to earth and 405 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:56.200 like saying, okay, what what's you know? 406 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:58.400 How is this this this space working? You know? 407 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.079 And to your point, I just want to add because 408 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:07.319 I think you're making a really important point here. We 409 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.279 talked about how we're too busy to take the time 410 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.119 and give ourselves the space to reflect on how we 411 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.039 feel and how things are going. But to your point here, 412 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.599 I feel like sometimes also we keep ourselves busy because 413 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:25.599 we're maybe too scared of deeply looking at how we're 414 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:29.400 actually feeling. Because we know deep down that if we 415 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.640 start doing this, if we start honestly observing the way 416 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:36.839 we feel, inside and the way we behave on a 417 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.599 day to day basis. This might lead to very big changes, 418 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.319 and big changes can be very scary, So sometimes it 419 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:48.039 just feels a little bit more reassuring and comfortable to 420 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:53.119 just keep busy and not look too closely as to 421 00:19:52.960 -->

00:19:53.440 how we feel. 422 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:57.160 That's a great point, and it is one of those 423 00:19:57.480 --> 00:19:59.440 you know, I'm sure you hear the two words someone's 424 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.160 how you doing, I'm just busy, you know, and that's 425 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.960 like the everybody's response, and truthfully, yes we are all busy. 426 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:05.880 But like it's this funny point of like it's either 427 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:07.559 become a badge of honor and or I think you're 428 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:10.759 right that for many of us in oftentimes it's like 429 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:12.480 that's why I don't have to think about the other 430 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:14.640 actual questions, because the questions are hard, right. 431 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:16.839 It's like, you know, it's like it's one of those 432 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:17.279 things that you. 433 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:18.680 Know, if you've done it before, you know what will 434 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:21.680 feel better when you do it, But it's hard to excavate, 435 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:23.400 you know, the old bones that you that you don't 436 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.160 want to do because I think it's something else that's 437 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.240 important that you help me think about too through your book, 438 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:30.480 is that this this idea that like we all have 439 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:32.279 a course of inner curiosity, right, and like we were 440 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:34.480 born with that's that's how kids and babies play. I 441 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:36.640 have I have a you know, almost six month old 442 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.359 son now, and it's like watching him just begin to 443 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.319 discover and he has zero preconceptions of how things are 444 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.559 supposed to go, and you know, to often to hilarity, right, 445 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:47.480 you know, it's it's important to recognize like that's the 446 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:49.119 kind of the you know, the childlike wonder. 447 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:50.440 You know, it's like it's very different when you're. 448 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:51.480 Watching your own kid do it, you know, but it's 449 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:55.400 like this this funny thing of like learning that that's 450 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:56.759 that's going to be there, and like, you know, I 451 00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:58.200 always want to make sure that, you know, I keep 452 00:20:58.240 --> 00:20:59.519 that or like we like how do we keep that 453 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:01.920 in our lives? And so you note that that we 454 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.720 often see that kind of inner curiosity kind of quailed 455 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:06.200 over time, right. I think part of it is is, 456 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.559 you know, too, like through the linear thinking model, it's like, oh, 457 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.440 there's not a ton of space for curiosity. If it's 458 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:12.079 like go down this put this is you know, you 459 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:13.759 can be curious in this little box and that's it, 460 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:14.440 you know. 461 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:16.559 So so some like, let's think about this. 462 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:19.640 You know, oftentimes that kind of inner curiosity gets quelled, 463 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:21.839 like how do we either kind of excavator on earth 464 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:24.000 that you know, like we have observations? Was one bucket, 465 00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:26.400 Like what else can we do in that area to 466 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:27.759 kind of say, let me, let me poke at that 467 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:32.279 that little that little voice, you know, maybe be less busy. 468 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:37.359 And so so there's observation. And then once you're you 469 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:41.200 start absorbing those different patterns, you can get back into 470 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:45.119 a bit more like an active mode and start playing 471 00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:48.319 with ideas, and we be testing some of them. And 472 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:51.920 this is where I really like the container of the 473 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:57.359 experiment for this, because again, as you mentioned, where we're like, okay, 474 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:00.640 how do I even practice curiosity if as been in 475 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.119 a you know, just purely execution climbing the latter mode? 476 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:07.359 How do I reinject this into my life? That's why 477 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.200 my book is called Tiny Experiments and that Big Experiments, 478 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:15.519 because I really feel like keeping them small means that 479 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:20.119 you can integrate them in your life without making big 480 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:23.599 changes yet, and I think they will result in big 481 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.839 changes and transformation. But you don't have to do that 482 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:29.599 from the get go. You can start with something quite small, 483 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.920 and so those seats of inspiration that those observations that 484 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.640 you made, you can look at them and then ask yourself, Okay, 485 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:41.200 what something that could be different? What could I play with? 486 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:44.839 What could I change? What could I test? So, for example, 487 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.799 if you've noticed that a specific topic gives you a 488 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:53.880 lot of energy, what if you blocked an hour or 489 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:58.079 two hours every week to explore that topic, no emails, 490 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:00.519 your phone in another room, you tell the kids that 491 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:02.480 they have to go and

play and do something else, 492 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.519 because for one or two hours, you're just going to 493 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:08.640 be a nerd and explore everything you want to learn 494 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:10.559 about this topic. And do that a little bit every 495 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:13.759 week and maybe take notes, etc. Just for the purpose 496 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:17.720 of exploring an idea that you're curious about. If you've 497 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:21.519 noticed that you're extremely tired in the morning and you 498 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:25.200 can't really get good job done, good work done, maybe 499 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:29.079 try shifting some of your low effort admin tasks to 500 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:32.200 the morning. Test that for a few weeks, and again 501 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.000 take little note, see how that feels. Is that working 502 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:38.680 for you or not? And you can really design those 503 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.640 small personal experiments in any area of your life. It 504 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:45.039 can be in your relationships with your partner, saying, let's 505 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:49.160 experiment with a weekly date night where we both come 506 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:52.160 with prepared questions for the other one and we just 507 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:55.920 ask each other about our lives. You can experiment with 508 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.960 your health, with your creativity, with your work processes, knowledge management, 509 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:04.440 any of those different kind of things, and by doing so, 510 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:09.599 it will also make you even more observant of the 511 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.920 way these things are changing your life. You'll be more preasent. 512 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:17.759 And so even if there's no big milestone or outcome 513 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:21.599 that you can pin and say this is success, you 514 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:24.599 will actually progress, you will actually change, you will actually 515 00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:27.559 evolve as a human being. And to me, that is 516 00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:29.039 a better definition of senes No. 517 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:30.720 I love that too, and I think and it puts 518 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:33.640 us pushes us also to this like the more circular 519 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:36.319 kind of framing versusly like I hit milestone X y Z, 520 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:37.160 and now I've done things. 521 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:39.240 You know, now I'm now I'm. 522 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:42.240 Ten percent better, you know, not to hit on ten 523 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:44.559 percent happier but interesting idea, right inter the meditation, you know, 524 00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:46.759 But like, but I think that I think that's a great, 525 00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:49.920 a great point to kind of recognize that it can 526 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:51.960 both be anything, right, And I love the idea of like, yeah, 527 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:53.839 let's either come with you know, set date night for 528 00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:55.720 you know, for six weeks, we're going to have here's 529 00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:57.279 ten questions that we want to know about each other, 530 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.200 and like they're gonna get progressively harder to answers, but 531 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:02.839 you know, or whatever it is, or even this is 532 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.359 like yeah, like are you're not a morning person? Like 533 00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:06.240 that's actually fine, Like don't let visit tell you that 534 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.759 you're you're crappy. It's like just then change your task 535 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:09.960 that you don't have to eat what was it Mark 536 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.759 Twain to eat the eat the frog first or whatever, 537 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:13.119 eat the biggest frog first. It's like, no, eat the 538 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:14.680 biggest frog later, if you want to eat the smallest 539 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:17.920 one first, if that's easier for you, right, and kind 540 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:20.680 of recognizing that like it you know with that too, 541 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:21.359 like this the kind. 542 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:21.960 Of time boxing it, right. 543 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:23.640 I think it's really really an important piece that you 544 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:26.599 point out too, because it's like, hey, how do I 545 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:28.359 know if it's working and be like, well, part of it, 546 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:29.720 like say, if I'm gonna do it for six weeks 547 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:31.200 or one week or a month or whatever it is, 548 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:33.240 and like commit to doing that and then you can 549 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:35.359 actually see, Okay, what how do I feel after doing 550 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:37.799 that for this amount of time. And it's funny because 551 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.799 you know, as someone that is a uh is a 552 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:44.880 continuously bad planner, that like it's you know, Philly's fist 553 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:46.160 hard to put these things. But when I put a 554 00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.279 small time box of something, like it's much easier to 555 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.440 then both get something done but then feel like it's 556 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:52.480 it's more I can accomplish it, right, It's like it 557 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:54.359 kind of gets sort of the paralysis of. 558 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:56.279 Like how do I how do I do this? You know? 559 00:25:57.440 --> 00:25:59.319 And that that ties into this other piece of that 560 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:01.079 was really interesting that you talk about, is that like 561 00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:04.799 it's like chronos versus chiros, right, it's like the quality 562 00:26:04.839 -->

00:26:07.000 and quantity of time. So like thinking about this idea 563 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:08.799 of like both how much time am I putting into something? 564 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:11.480 But like as I'm working on something, it's not about 565 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:13.440 did I put in again We're. 566 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:15.000 Gonna hit on numbers here, ten thousand hours, like do 567 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:15.279 this thing. 568 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:17.680 It's like that's not necessarily the point that we're talking 569 00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:19.519 about here, right, but that that's like a big experimise 570 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:20.640 is like a hell of a lot of work, right, 571 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:22.680 But I could do something smaller. 572 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:24.160 So, so how do we think about this idea? 573 00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.880 Of like this, the Chronos and chiros in terms of 574 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:28.240 the time we're putting into something. 575 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:34.640 Yes, so yeah, you perfectly defined that Chronos quantity of time, 576 00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:38.000 Cairos quantity of time, and the ancient Greeks has those 577 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:42.039 two different works to describe time. And so Chronos is 578 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:44.880 really the time of clocks, of meetings, of saying let's 579 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.160 be here at ten am and we're going to work 580 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.880 on this for one hour, whereas when you focus on Cairos, 581 00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:55.079 what you're reading trying to optimize for is that of 582 00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:58.559 time rather than as much time as possible. And so 583 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:03.680 if you have twenty minutes of really deep work where 584 00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.680 you're highly connected with and inflow with whatever you're working on, 585 00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:12.559 that's going to have more value than spending ten thousand 586 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:18.240 hours practicing whatever skill. It's also knowing sometimes that some 587 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:24.200 moments have more weight and more quality than others, and 588 00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.480 that also can help you navigate decisions in your life. So, 589 00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:32.880 for example, that's knowing that in this moment, maybe bad 590 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.680 time with your kid is more important than answering this 591 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.480 email that is in your inbox. That's really having this 592 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.000 approach of Cairos and knowing that each minute has a 593 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:49.279 specific and special unique quality to it that you can 594 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:54.599 attune yourself to and really decide what you want to experience, 595 00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:57.240 what do you want your really your your life and 596 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:01.279 your experience to be in this moment, rather

than having 597 00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:06.160 the chronos approach where each minute is equal and the 598 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.920 goal is to you as much as possible using all 599 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:12.079 of those tiny boxes that all add up to your life. 600 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:17.400 And the best way I think to show to really 601 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:20.599 for anyone listening to this to know that they have 602 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:25.400 experienced chiros, they know what it is intrinsically is that 603 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:29.119 you know how sometimes you have a conversation with someone 604 00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:32.480 and then you look at the time and it was 605 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:36.160 four hours talking with them, and you really didn't see 606 00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:40.640 the time going. That's chiros. That shows you that time 607 00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.960 is elastic depending on its quality, and that other times, 608 00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:49.359 you know, things go very slowly if you don't want 609 00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.240 to be here, if you're worried, you don't feel connected 610 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:56.440 with whoever you're with. So that's chiros. We've all experienced it, 611 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:58.480 but we can be a little bit more intentional with it. 612 00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:01.519 No, I love that idea too, and it's it's it's 613 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.440 counter to of course the other like I think frustrating 614 00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:07.519 prevailing wisdom, right that time is money, right, Because then 615 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:09.640 it's like because a dollar is an individual thing, right, 616 00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:11.400 that it's like worth this much. And like if we 617 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.240 say time is that, then it has a different value too. 618 00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:15.720 And it's like, but it doesn't, right, Like we have 619 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:18.960 a subjective experience that matters of what we're doing and 620 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:21.279 what we're doing it, and like getting in like as 621 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:23.000 you said too, like that flow right where that time 622 00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:24.960 just flies by and something it's been a couple hours 623 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:27.359 and you're like, wow, I didn't realize what I was 624 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:29.920 reading books, talking to a friend, you know, watching a movie, 625 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:31.640 playing with your kid, you know, going on a walk, 626 00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:33.519 or I mean, or if you're I don't know, if 627 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:35.240 you're coding, it's fine too, right, It's like doesn't matter 628 00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.000 what it is. But we all know, we all have 629 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:39.440 we've had that, right. I mean, I think it is 630 00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:42.799 really powerful to recognize that that we It's helpful to 631 00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:46.039 like again like look back and reflect on those moments 632 00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.480 and know that when we had them and giving different 633 00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:51.559 weight to time is such an important piece. And I 634 00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:54.319 think that that speaks to this the like the importance 635 00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:56.880 of a mindfulness approach that you also talked about right that. 636 00:29:57.799 --> 00:29:59.279 You know what is mindfulness? 637 00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:01.319 Meaning as you think abo this parayly, oftentimes we're like, oh, 638 00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:03.519 some people say, oh, it's like meditating. It's like maybe 639 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:05.000 like part of it, but like I think it's really this. 640 00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:08.000 It's like, am I aware of the experience that I'm having? 641 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:08.599 Right? 642 00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:12.039 And am I kind of being more attuned to that 643 00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:15.400 itself versus you know, I meditated for ten minutes? 644 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:15.640 Right? 645 00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:19.279 And it's funny because oftentimes, like if people say I 646 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:21.240 don't know either how to be mindful or what the 647 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:22.880 earth has like some foof food stuff, I don't know, 648 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.400 it's like, well, then just sit and meditate for ten 649 00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:26.319 minutes and we'll give you a time to start with. 650 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:29.519 But then, you know, think about how you felt during 651 00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:31.440 that ten minutes and if it was anxious, that's actually fine. 652 00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:33.480 And if it was like bored, that's okay too. If 653 00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:35.680 it's sleepy, that's fine. If it was excited, that's also great. 654 00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:37.720 And it's like recognizing that we don't need to judge 655 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:40.519 the chronos there, right, It's like the chronos gave us 656 00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:43.759 just a bounded moment to try something, but really, then 657 00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:45.400 we're going after the cairos after the. 658 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:46.000 End of it right. 659 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:52.240 Yeah, absolutely, And that non judgmental aspect is so important. 660 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:58.559 There are a lot of experiences that we simply cannot control, 661 00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:03.920 whether you're you to external factors or internal chemistry or 662 00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:08.759 just you know, events relationships that we have. There are 663 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.279 simply a lot of things that we feel and that 664 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:15.240 we think that are out of our control. But then 665 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.799 we have somehow somewhat a little bit more control over 666 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:23.240 how we respond to our own thoughts and

emotions. And 667 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:26.200 this is exactly what you're describing here, being aware of 668 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.359 them but also not judging them, not judging necessary whether 669 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:34.759 they're good or they're bad. They just happened, and you 670 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.559 can learn from any of these experiences, whether good or bad. 671 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:40.400 That kind of like goes back to what we were 672 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:43.599 talking about earlier. Also, is that if you start disconnecting 673 00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:49.480 your actions from this artificial idea of success, you can 674 00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:54.480 just again be aware and observe of, you know, how 675 00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:57.440 you feel, your emotions, your thoughts, et cetera. As you 676 00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:00.640 explore an idea or a path or something that you're 677 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:04.680 curious about, and if you don't get to the place 678 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.839 you expected to get to, that's fine. That can actually 679 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:12.839 be good. Something unexpected, something surprising something that you can 680 00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:15.279 learn from. And I think that connects to my. 681 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:16.640 It's a great point too. 682 00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:21.559 And yeah, if we're able to not judge a prejudge scenario. 683 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:23.799 What's interesting about that too? You know? 684 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:28.160 That has me me thinking that I like. 685 00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:29.440 The idea that. 686 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.720 The quality of our experiences in time as we can 687 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:35.680 it matters. I don't want to prejudge that. But then 688 00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:39.119 also we have things like procrastination that I don't want 689 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:41.599 to do something around, like you know, I just can't 690 00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:43.480 get started, right, And what I love is that you 691 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:45.920 also tackle this idea that it's like, well, actually that's 692 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:48.920 not a bad thing, right, you know, we we have 693 00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:51.359 such a negative idea because like productivity also again in 694 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:53.000 modern business parlance, right, it's. 695 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:54.640 Like go Google do this. You know, here's your here's 696 00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:55.920 your five points of to do list. 697 00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:59.279 Procrastination we're always fighting as somehow, how are we always 698 00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:00.720 fighting against this thing we don't want to know, we 699 00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:02.039 don't want to do or don't want to start. Like 700 00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:03.799 that's curious, But I think I like the way you 701 00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:06.440 flip this for us and say, actually, let's rethink what 702 00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:09.440 procrastination is doing here. It's not just this bad guy 703 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:11.920 that we have to overcome what am I be telling 704 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.400 us something important? So I'll tell me a bit about 705 00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:15.519 what that is. And then also like, how'd you How 706 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:17.599 did you come to that idea that procrastination is not 707 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:18.240 such a bad guy? 708 00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:23.039 If you all, yeah, it's a you know, this is 709 00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:27.039 a kind of a thread that runs through the entire book, right, 710 00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:31.519 is that any challenge can become an opportunity for growth 711 00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:34.200 if you choose to approach it from a place of curiosity. 712 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:40.519 And I choose procrastination as an illustration of this because 713 00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:44.480 I know this is something that most people think is bad. 714 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.799 Most people agree procrastination is bad. I don't want to 715 00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:53.039 be procrastinating. If you look up online articles to try 716 00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:57.559 and help you deal with procrastination or manage procrastination, most 717 00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:01.640 of them are titled how to beat fascination. There's something 718 00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:07.359 really violent going on yet, And so yeah, we really 719 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.079 want to get rid of it. And so I picked 720 00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:14.400 that example as something that really most people just want 721 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:18.239 to get rid of, and showing how you can actually 722 00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:21.199 grow and learn if you choose to approach it from 723 00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:26.400 a place of curacity. Because what is procrastination really it's 724 00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:29.559 a signal from your brain and your body, that something 725 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:32.320 is not quite right and that you're not in the 726 00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:36.039 best conditions possible to do whether a task you feel 727 00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:39.679 like you should be doing, and that problem can come 728 00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:44.199 from different places. It can be a problem coming from 729 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:48.280 the task itself. So maybe actually you should not even 730 00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:51.000 be doing that task in the first place. Maybe someone 731 00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:53.559 else should be doing it, or maybe we should not 732 00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:55.559 even be doing that task in the first place. It 733 00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:58.599 ended up on your task list, it's been there, and 734 00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:01.559 you've been feeling horrible about it for not doing it 735 00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:05.079 for two weeks, but actually, nothing bad's going to happen 736 00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:07.360 if nobody

does that thing, so you can just move 737 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:08.360 it from your task list. 738 00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:09.320 So that. 739 00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.159 Could be the reason why you're procrastinating, is that subconsciously 740 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:18.079 you know there's no point doing this thing. Another reason 741 00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:21.719 why you may be procrastinating is because the task is 742 00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.920 just not fun, not enjoyable, not exciting. That's also a 743 00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:27.239 very valid reason why you don't want to work on it. 744 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:31.360 And in that case, once you've identified this by approaching 745 00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:34.840 it from a place of curiosity, you can say, okay, so, okay, 746 00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:36.719 I do want to do the task. I think it 747 00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:38.639 makes sense to do it, but how can I make 748 00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:41.440 it fun, maybe work with someone, go to your favorite 749 00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:46.679 coffee shop, et cetera. And other times. Another signal that 750 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:50.280 procrastination can be sending you is that, let's say, yes, 751 00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:52.800 you're convinced you want to do it, it looks like fun, 752 00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:56.320 and you're still not doing it. Why Probably because you 753 00:35:56.360 --> 00:35:59.119 feel like you don't have the necessary skills or expertise 754 00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:01.920 or tools not able to do it yourself. So in 755 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:04.280 that case, you can get those tools, you can get support, 756 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:06.960 you can get coaching, mentoring, but you're not stuck anymore. 757 00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:10.280 And you notice when I go through all of those 758 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:14.679 different potential sources of procrastination that again there's no judgment there. 759 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.760 I'm really just looking at the signal and I'm asking, hey, procrastination, 760 00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:23.840 what are you trying to tell me? Here? Almost talk 761 00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:26.199 to it as if it was a friend and say, hey, 762 00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:28.760 I know you're trying to tell me something. What are 763 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:29.760 you saying? I'm listening. 764 00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:32.039 I think that that's super important. It's and it's it's 765 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:34.360 like that power of reframing too, right. It's something that 766 00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:39.800 I it's like I recognized years ago in my life too, 767 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:42.239 that that you know, one when I was feeling anxious 768 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:43.599 for something like you know kind of like this is 769 00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:45.320 this doesn't feel great. You know, it's like you want 770 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:46.400 to kind of get rid of the feeling that you 771 00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:48.440 feel like this isn't good. But then I kind of 772 00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:50.679 learned to reframe and say, well, no, what is this. 773 00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:53.159 What is this friend in my neighborhood here like trying 774 00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:54.639 to tell me like it's trying to protect me for 775 00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:55.039 some reason. 776 00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:56.400 It's like wants to make sure I'm okay. 777 00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:59.199 And it's like this interesting idea of like, oh, like anxiety, 778 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.000 you know, stop up to kind of say hello, let 779 00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:02.920 me let me see what it has to say. In procrastination, 780 00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:05.760 you know that resonates in that similar kind of way 781 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:09.239 that you know, in one box, this is a negative thing, right, 782 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:10.719 and the other side it's like what is this trying 783 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:12.119 to tell me? And like oh wait, maybe I need 784 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:13.519 to get some different kind of skills, or maybe we 785 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:16.960 can actually improve the process entirely. And you know that 786 00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:19.079 the whatever the forty emails is supposed to stay, like 787 00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:21.320 we can actually automate that process or whatever it is, right, 788 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.800 like recognizing we don't have to do it that specific way, 789 00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:25.800 and so it's not procrastination that's the problem. It's like 790 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:28.119 us kind of seeing, you know, how can I move 791 00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:30.400 through what needs to get done right? And like that 792 00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:32.199 might be going around it, it might be you know, getting 793 00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:33.800 skills for it. And I think that that's actually really 794 00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:38.280 really helpful and like to generate something out of it, right, 795 00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:41.400 And I think even this concept of kind of the 796 00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:43.880 generative form of thinking is is something that I took 797 00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:45.159 away from from the work too that I think is 798 00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:48.280 really helpful because it kind of says when we have 799 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:50.519 a roadblock, that's asking ourselves is it a roadblock? And 800 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:52.960 then or what is the block trying to tell us? 801 00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.320 Like and maybe again it is like I need to 802 00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:56.840 get a different kind of pathway to get through it 803 00:37:56.920 --> 00:37:57.360 or around it. 804 00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:57.519 You know. 805 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.320 It's something that really stuck with me too. Like so 806 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.119 one I've I've got my short term procrastination thinking. The 807 00:38:04.159 -->

00:38:06.400 other side is like this like much longer legacy thinking, 808 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:07.679 which I thought was really interesting in a way to 809 00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:10.960 approach this too, because it's like, you know, against linear pathway. 810 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:12.920 It's like I'm thinking about, Okay, what am I going 811 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.760 to accomplish across my boxes and my calendar and then 812 00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:19.039 both either leave behind, But like legacy is an interesting 813 00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:20.639 like challenge point because it's like, either what do I 814 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:23.360 leave behind when I when I die or or just 815 00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:24.519 when I leave a company or something. 816 00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:26.239 Right, it's like how do people know what I did? 817 00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:29.519 And we're with a slight obsession with that also in 818 00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:31.760 kind of today's contemporary culture, you know, and like you 819 00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:34.079 also help us like smack that around a little bit 820 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:36.159 as well too. I guess that's finally metaphor we're asking 821 00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:38.400 for gently massage it to can help but think play 822 00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:41.400 differently about what it could be. So like let's go 823 00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:42.719 to that set end of the spectrum too, Like so 824 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:44.960 we have legacy thinking now of like let's actually rethink 825 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:47.239 what we're trying to do there too, Like how does 826 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:49.800 that how does that reshape our thinking in your pathway? 827 00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:54.920 Yes, I absolutely had. I felt like I had to 828 00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:58.400 have a chapter about this question in the book because 829 00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:01.400 I know that a lot of the kind of people 830 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:05.000 like you, like me, who actually do care about having 831 00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:07.599 an impact a positive impact on the world and the 832 00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:11.360 people around us. As you said, this concept of legacy 833 00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:18.920 making sure that we leave something behind were remembered and 834 00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:24.719 we're really just having this reinsurance that it mattered that 835 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:28.519 we were here at some point it is something that 836 00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:33.440 we all cling onto as if it would give meaning 837 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:37.400 to our lives. And what I want to do in 838 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:40.519 what I do in the book in the last chapter 839 00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:44.599 actually is that I challenged that thinking. And what I 840 00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:47.800 say is that you can create meaning in your life 841 00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:52.960 in the here and now in present by shifting your 842 00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:56.119 mindset from how am I going to be remembered when 843 00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:58.960 I'm gone, which when you think about it makes absolutely 844 00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:02.119 no sense. You're not. You're going to buy yourself to 845 00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:07.519 enjoy all of that, you know, So shifting your mindset 846 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:12.480 to how can I be as generative as possible in 847 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:16.320 the present and the here and now positively contributing to 848 00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:21.320 the lives of my fellow living human beings for sharing 849 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:26.159 this earth with me at the moment. And if everybody 850 00:40:26.199 --> 00:40:30.440 did that, actually we would end up, in a indirect 851 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:34.840 way leaving a better legacy. But I don't think focusing 852 00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:37.679 on leaving a better legacy is the way to go 853 00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:41.119 about achieving that. So that's really what I advocate for, 854 00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:45.239 is really trying to have the most positive impact possible 855 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:49.079 again today, and it doesn't have to be on in 856 00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:52.920 the entire world. It can be on your local community, family, friends, 857 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:56.199 et cetera. The great thing about this approach as well, 858 00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:00.840 which ties back to the idea again of experimentating, is 859 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:03.719 that you can see straight away if what you're doing 860 00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:07.480 is working, and you can adapt your approach and you 861 00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:11.000 can keep on tweaking until you get to the kind 862 00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.840 of impact that you want to have. If you wait 863 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:18.079 until you're dead to for the results to be available, 864 00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:20.480 you're not going to be able to do anything to 865 00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:23.079 change the trajectory if that's not really where you want 866 00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:23.239 it to. 867 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:24.719 And I think that's a great point. 868 00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:28.079 And like, you know, while we're seeing also kind of 869 00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:31.519 this I want to say rebellion, but it's also more 870 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:34.320 just like you know, this push against retirement is like 871 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:36.280 wait till you're like, I can't wait till I'm retired. 872 00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.559 It's like why, you know, you know, do the things 873 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:40.079 like that the kind of push back we see if 874 00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:41.360 people say, well, do what you want to do now, 875 00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:43.800 like what are you waiting until you're potentially sixty five 876 00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:46.079 or seventy or eighty, which you know, will we even 877 00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:46.519 be able to

retire? 878 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.039 I don't know, so, I mean that's probably part of 879 00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:49.119 the question there, you know. 880 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:52.960 But but this idea that like yeah, why why are 881 00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:54.880 we putting off basically what we want to see in 882 00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:56.320 the world? Like that seems it, See when you think 883 00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:57.679 about it, it's kind of crazy, right, You're like you 884 00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:00.199 won't even be there, So it's like you might have 885 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:02.800 done some good, but like you know, the story might change. 886 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:05.519 And again, one of these things is like, you know, 887 00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:07.719 depending who you ask, like say, Rockefeller did great things, 888 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:09.039 you know for the United States, is like, yeah, welly 889 00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:11.480 also like screwed a bunch of people and like you know, 890 00:42:11.719 --> 00:42:14.000 did a ton of like environmental damage and ruined a 891 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:16.440 bunch of you know, culture. So it's like there's all 892 00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:19.079 these like bigger questions of like okay, like where and 893 00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:21.480 when does even a good legacy stick around for and 894 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:23.639 like how long does it change as cultural trans change? 895 00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:26.559 And so it seems like, you know, I think it's 896 00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:28.000 a very important point, I guess, to kind of have 897 00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:32.159 us recognize that like there's more work to do now 898 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:34.039 than there is like in the potential future. 899 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:34.519 You know. 900 00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:40.280 Yeah, And I'm glad you mentioned retirement as well, because 901 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.440 another side of the coin of being too focused and 902 00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:47.199 obsessed with legacy is that you have a lot of 903 00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:52.840 people in their sixties seventies eighties who are perfectly healthy 904 00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:57.119 and capable of having an amazing impact on their local communities, 905 00:42:57.719 --> 00:42:59.920 that don't feel like they can do anything because it's 906 00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:03.199 too late to build a legacy at this stage. They 907 00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:05.559 feel like, oh, like, you know, now, I only have 908 00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:08.199 a few decades left, Like there's no point. Most people 909 00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:11.199 who build a really big legacy they got started earlier, 910 00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:13.639 they did that over the course of their enterier career. 911 00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:18.199 It's too late, right if you stop focusing on legacy 912 00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:22.119 and on generativt right now in the present moment. It's 913 00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:24.920 never too late to get started with any kind of 914 00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:27.800 you know, meaningful, impactful project. 915 00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:27.920 That you want. 916 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:31.599 I love that point, yes, because it is it is like, 917 00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:33.440 oh yeah, it's it's like no, it's it's too late 918 00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.719 when you're dead, you know. But it's like when you're 919 00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:37.719 if you're living then yeah, exactly right. And and that's 920 00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:40.039 the thing, it's like people are living now here, right, 921 00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:42.119 so it's like set of a legacy, we need like 922 00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:43.360 a generacy. 923 00:43:44.599 --> 00:43:47.199 You know. But that that's a really powerful point too. 924 00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:49.199 And I think also with that too, and something I 925 00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:51.639 take from you know again thematically through the book too, 926 00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:53.960 is like it's not like having the biggest impact. 927 00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:55.480 It's not doing the most things, right. 928 00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:58.599 It's not again, it's not the quantity thing necessarily, right, 929 00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:00.000 It's like not do ten more things. 930 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.559 It's more like look for. 931 00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:03.559 That that quality at that that those kind of chirosk 932 00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:05.679 experiences that you can have with folks, whether it's cooking 933 00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:07.760 a meal with somebody or like your neighbors are taking 934 00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:10.400 their trash out. You know, it's like those things are 935 00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:12.199 actually what people remember, you know at the end of 936 00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:14.800 the day, versus Oh, I wrote three thousand you know 937 00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:16.880 pages in this dissertation that no one read. You know, 938 00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:18.920 it's like it's big and important, as we all know, 939 00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:21.800 but like at the same time, you know, it's it's 940 00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.320 it's not necessarily it might be the think it changes 941 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.440 somebody's life, but it probably won't change as many people's lives. 942 00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:28.079 I mean, you know, but again that's the future thing, right, 943 00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:29.639 what what what could my thesis do? 944 00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:31.320 You know? 945 00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:32.840 But I love this idea to have kind of reminding 946 00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:34.360 us to come back to the here now. And also 947 00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:36.320 that speaks to the mindfulness angle too, right that like 948 00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:39.519 if we're being present in kind of noting what am 949 00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:42.599 I experiencing in this moment with self

with others, you know. 950 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:44.679 Then that also says this is this is that moment 951 00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:47.559 of generation, you know. And one piece of that too, 952 00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:50.239 that another kind of bow to tie there, which I 953 00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:53.079 really appreciated that you explored too, is like they did 954 00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:55.400 playing and dancing right, like these have to be important 955 00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:57.480 parts of our work and how we do and like 956 00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:00.440 and like this resonated with me too, because it was 957 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:04.280 like when I I left a corporate job a few 958 00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:06.719 years ago and I was I was in the kind 959 00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:07.760 of path of like I don't know what I'm like, 960 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:09.000 I was doubt, you know, I'm not sure I was 961 00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:09.239 going to do. 962 00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:10.239 I wanted to figure out the next thing. 963 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:12.840 And it's like, you know, I ended up taking a 964 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:15.360 month long road trip and like did some speaking engagements 965 00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:17.559 and like visited family and it was like this very nice, 966 00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:18.960 like first time I've done the thing. 967 00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:20.159 I was like, I was gonna take the great American 968 00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:20.559 road job. 969 00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:21.960 I've never done that, you know, and it was like 970 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:25.400 this very like it was perfect timing and this right moment. 971 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:27.760 But it's this it was like I had zero schedule, 972 00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:29.760 like I should I did be at this place in 973 00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:32.079 this date, but how I got there and like what 974 00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:34.840 I did in between, and that was actually one of 975 00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:36.719 the most important things I could have done at the time, 976 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:38.480 because it was like, let me put that space into 977 00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:40.360 experience this moment now where I don't have to be 978 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:42.119 anywhere else, I don't have to be thinking about what 979 00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:47.159 I should be doing, and it like changes your your perception, 980 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.039 right because you're like, I'm watching trees and I'm sitting 981 00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:52.000 at this rest stop, and I'm looking at these dogs 982 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:53.480 running around in this yard, you know, and it's like 983 00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.559 it's very you know, spacious, I guess in one way, 984 00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:58.159 and you kind of realize there is that space in 985 00:45:58.199 --> 00:46:00.599 the center. Once you finally kind of stop moving for 986 00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.800 a second, you realize how much space is actually around you. 987 00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:06.119 And it was I guess from all that. 988 00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:07.719 Came this idea of playfulness, right, like let me I 989 00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:10.159 can play with what I could do, what this could be. 990 00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:12.400 And so I'm kind of curious to thoughts about this too, like, 991 00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:13.960 you know, how did you come to play as one 992 00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:16.840 of these key key pieces of like finding joy and work, 993 00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:20.000 finding joy and experimentation because it is fun, I think, 994 00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:20.360 you know. 995 00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:24.840 Yeah, I mean you did mention at the being of 996 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:31.199 our conversation, how children are naturally curious, and another another 997 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:34.559 behavior that they have that is very natural to them 998 00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:41.000 is learning through play, exploring through play, being naturally playful 999 00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:43.559 about anything that they do and their approach, and also 1000 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:48.039 connecting and relating to others through play and playfulness. I 1001 00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:50.559 know it may sound a little bit antithetic with the 1002 00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:54.039 scientific mindset, but it's actually really important because a lot 1003 00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:58.239 of scientific discoveries happen through being playful, open minded, looking 1004 00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:02.239 at things in a different way, asking questions are non obvious, 1005 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:06.199 so you can really also approach problems and challenges in 1006 00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:10.639 your life from this angle of playfulness and just asking yourself, 1007 00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:12.400 what if I approached this a little bit more like 1008 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:17.000 a game. What if I stop caring so much about 1009 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:21.159 the outcome? What if this was fun? And very often 1010 00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:24.039 when you ask yourself these questions and you just start 1011 00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:27.480 playing a little bit more with ideas, with projects, with challenges, 1012 00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:32.199 you'll not only discover new ways of approaching these things 1013 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:35.039 you're working on, but it will just be more fun 1014 00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:36.679 and enjoyable to you while you're working there. 1015 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:38.880 I love it, so I think I encourage us all 1016 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:41.000 just get out there and play, right. It's like remembering 1017 00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:43.480 that that it turns out we get all serious, but 1018 00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:45.079 it's like life can be fun, you know, as creepy 1019 00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:46.559 as the Joker was in the dark night, like when 1020 00:47:46.559 -->

00:47:48.679 he's asking why so serious that there's something to it? Right, 1021 00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:51.760 It's like we can we can have fun with this, right, 1022 00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:55.840 I think so Again, thank you so much for chatting 1023 00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:57.760 with me too, Like this has been super fun to 1024 00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:59.719 kind of think through playful right, to kind of think 1025 00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:01.679 through these ideas, And I appreciate the work that you're 1026 00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:04.159 putting out. It is important for us as so many 1027 00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:06.079 folks are rethinking what they can do for their career 1028 00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:09.760 paths and again like retirement, like why wait, these questions 1029 00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:12.239 think are really important for us to kind of learn 1030 00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:15.960 to let go of legacy and negative perceptions of procrastination 1031 00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:18.599 and kind of stop talking about time as this one 1032 00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:21.519 linear pathway, but we can actually experiment, you know, around 1033 00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:25.000 ideas and around ideas, and so if folks both want 1034 00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:26.159 to learn more, I'm excited for them to check out 1035 00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:27.599 you book. You know you've got nest Labs. Also to 1036 00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:29.519 tell me a bit about nest Labs. So folks want 1037 00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:30.920 to get it. Even course, you got community, you get 1038 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:32.679 a whole, you get a whole like great world there too. 1039 00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:34.239 So what's what's happening over in the in the lab 1040 00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:36.239 space that folks can that folks need to know about. 1041 00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:42.360 Yes, So nest Labs. I write a weekly newsletter that 1042 00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:45.000 I send you about one hundred thousand people every week 1043 00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:48.079 on Thursday, so that's completely free. You can sign up 1044 00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:49.639 and I discuss a lot of the topics that we 1045 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:52.920 talked about today. There's also a private community where we 1046 00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:56.960 have online courses and coaching, little workshops, and we also 1047 00:48:57.079 --> 00:49:00.880 conduct experiments all together, so you can your little luck 1048 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:04.599 book there and announce your experiment, and then everybody's kind 1049 00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:09.280 of like joining in supporting you, providing feedback and supporting accountability. 1050 00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:13.519 So yeah, so that's next Labs. And then there's the 1051 00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:17.480 book obviously that's coming out very soon, and that's separate. 1052 00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:20.400 You can go on tiny experiments dot org and you 1053 00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:21.320 can learn more about it. 1054 00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:22.800 We'll definitely a link to it in the show notes. Now, 1055 00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:24.639 all that good stuff, so folks can find out your work. 1056 00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:26.159 But thank you again so much for putting all this 1057 00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:28.119 out there in the world. I think it's it's such 1058 00:49:28.119 --> 00:49:31.159 important topics and conversations and timely for where we're at. 1059 00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:33.599 So thank you for generating so many good things and 1060 00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:36.000 great to talk with you today. 1061 00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:37.880 Thanks so much, Adam, thank you,