From Private to Public Blockchains! R3 Corda & Solana Team Up! | Todd McDonald의 전체 녹취록

00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.159 short version of the story is my sister threw her 72 00:03:40.259 --> 00:03:44.180 fiance out of their apartment over an argument, and my 73 00:03:44.219 --> 00:03:48.039 father suggested I should ask his father for a job 74 00:03:48.490 --> 00:03:50.729 because he wanted to get back at his son. And 75 00:03:50.750 --> 00:03:53.050 it turns out they offered me a job. I was 76 00:03:53.110 --> 00:03:55.150 on a trading floor when I was 21, thanks to 77 00:03:55.650 --> 00:03:58.469 this guy Oliver being a jerk to my sister. So 78 00:03:59.020 --> 00:04:03.379 I have a lot of debt to him. And that 79 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:08.439 was 1996, 97, back in the wild west of trading, 80 00:04:08.780 --> 00:04:11.259 which was quite fun. A lot of responsibility for a 81 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:14.439 young kid. I was running P & L and trading 82 00:04:14.469 --> 00:04:19.290 books back then. And yeah, spent about 15 years and 83 00:04:19.329 --> 00:04:21.170 spent a lot of time in emerging markets. So that was, 84 00:04:21.410 --> 00:04:23.050 I worked at Standard Chartered Bank. So it was very 85 00:04:23.089 --> 00:04:27.300 much in the emerging market world. So high volatility, On 86 00:04:27.329 --> 00:04:30.279 the FX side, things moved around every day. It wasn't 87 00:04:30.939 --> 00:04:34.199 exactly 24-7 markets. It was basically you would open Sunday 88 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:37.259 afternoon and trade until 5 p.m. on Friday. So as 89 00:04:37.310 --> 00:04:42.689 you can imagine, once I stumbled upon Bitcoin around 2013 90 00:04:42.689 --> 00:04:47.899 or so, it was like the FX markets on steroids. 91 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:50.079 And it was love at first sight, I guess, after that. 92 00:04:50.930 --> 00:04:53.149 What's it like seeing the firms you worked at, State 93 00:04:53.189 --> 00:04:58.430 Street and Standard Chartered, now embracing blockchain, tokenizing, launching crypto services? 94 00:04:59.209 --> 00:05:04.040 It's pretty wild. So, you know, as you know, at R3, 95 00:05:04.129 --> 00:05:06.730 I've been working with banks since the beginning. I came 96 00:05:06.750 --> 00:05:10.089 from a bank. I built after, you know, as part 97 00:05:10.110 --> 00:05:13.089 of my trading role, I ended up building products at 98 00:05:13.129 --> 00:05:16.250 the bank. I built trading systems and tried to work 99 00:05:16.269 --> 00:05:18.399 with developers and launch things inside the bank. So I 100 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:22.829 know how hard It is to actually do new things 101 00:05:22.870 --> 00:05:26.550 within a bank, which is understandable. They manage risk, and 102 00:05:26.709 --> 00:05:31.829 it's a totally different business. So to see, especially Standard Chartered, 103 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:39.060 embrace this world so wholeheartedly, it is, quite frankly, it's shocking. 104 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:43.779 But it's great to see. And I think it's because, 105 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.540 at the end of the day, and this is part 106 00:05:46.579 --> 00:05:49.740 of the journey with R3 as well, you know, these 107 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:54.939 banks are starting to realize that there's revenue over the horizon, right? 108 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:57.709 There's new products, there's new markets, there's new ways to distribute, 109 00:05:57.730 --> 00:06:00.689 there's new ways to manage risk. So it's not so 110 00:06:00.709 --> 00:06:04.629 much getting them excited about, hey, we can rip back 111 00:06:04.670 --> 00:06:08.170 off a system or we can optimize something. It's about 112 00:06:09.230 --> 00:06:12.959 making net new revenue. So that's what gets most companies, 113 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:15.980 especially banks, excited. So it's not that surprising that they're 114 00:06:16.019 --> 00:06:19.370 jumping in. But if you had asked me in 2013, 2014, 115 00:06:19.370 --> 00:06:21.860 I definitely would not have guessed it. 116 00:06:22.629 --> 00:06:25.709 It's incredible how things have grown and matured. And it 117 00:06:25.750 --> 00:06:28.589 seems you've crossed the chasm of, is this a fad 118 00:06:28.649 --> 00:06:31.149 or a scam? Now we need to have a digital 119 00:06:31.209 --> 00:06:31.970 asset strategy. 120 00:06:32.189 --> 00:06:37.740 Yeah. So when we first started just having conversations with banks, 121 00:06:37.819 --> 00:06:42.319 I still remember sending an email to a handful of 122 00:06:42.339 --> 00:06:44.980 banks to set up a meeting. And we got a 123 00:06:44.980 --> 00:06:46.949 phone call. right after we sent the email. This is 124 00:06:46.970 --> 00:06:49.610 like 2014. And the guy came back, he goes, what 125 00:06:49.649 --> 00:06:51.689 are you doing? I said, what do you mean? He's like, well, 126 00:06:51.709 --> 00:06:53.040 you sent me an email and you had the word 127 00:06:53.060 --> 00:06:55.980 Bitcoin in it. And now I have to talk to 128 00:06:56.019 --> 00:06:58.420 someone I've never ever, the phone rang from a number 129 00:06:58.459 --> 00:07:02.060 that I've never seen before from my compliance department. So 130 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.370 that was what it was like back then. It was basically, 131 00:07:06.569 --> 00:07:09.389 didn't understand it, didn't want to understand it. All it 132 00:07:09.689 --> 00:07:10.649 was was risk and threat. 133 00:07:11.829 --> 00:07:14.029 And I remember- That's very much in line with what 134 00:07:14.129 --> 00:07:17.000 Jamie Dimon, I remember in 2017, vividly saying, I will 135 00:07:17.139 --> 00:07:19.860 fire anybody who touches this. Don't talk to me about Bitcoin. 136 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:21.879 You'll lose all your money and all these things. 137 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:22.740 JP's come a long way. 138 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:26.959 Yes. Yes, absolutely. So Todd, take us back to the 139 00:07:27.019 --> 00:07:30.060 genesis of R3. How did the idea come about? What 140 00:07:30.100 --> 00:07:32.120 made you guys want to step out and say, we're 141

00:07:32.139 --> 00:07:33.470 going to use blockchain tech. 142 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:37.379 And build So as I mentioned, I stumbled upon Bitcoin. 143 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:40.519 I wanted to buy it. I wanted to trade it. Honestly, 144 00:07:40.540 --> 00:07:42.730 it was the greatest chart I've ever seen. I still remember. 145 00:07:43.269 --> 00:07:46.810 I think Bitcoin was around $ 150 at the time, something 146 00:07:46.829 --> 00:07:50.110 like that. It was trending between $ 110 and $ 180. And 147 00:07:50.189 --> 00:07:52.269 I couldn't because I was a New York State resident. 148 00:07:53.129 --> 00:07:55.129 The only thing I could do was go to localbitcoin.com 149 00:07:55.170 --> 00:07:58.779 and meet someone on the street corner. But with that, 150 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:01.920 I got very curious, started reading basically the internet about 151 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:05.839 what Bitcoin was, what blockchain was. I started bugging my 152 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:07.699 business partner. We were working on a project at the 153 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.259 State Street at the time, as you mentioned, David Rutter. 154 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:15.139 And at first he was, I would say, skeptical of 155 00:08:15.180 --> 00:08:18.250 the topic. But I remember he went to some industry event. 156 00:08:18.290 --> 00:08:21.370 I think it was the FIA event in Boca. And 157 00:08:21.389 --> 00:08:23.370 he called me up and he said, I don't know 158 00:08:23.389 --> 00:08:25.370 what it is, but when I try to talk to 159 00:08:25.410 --> 00:08:27.610 people about market structure, corporate bonds, this and that, all 160 00:08:27.629 --> 00:08:29.449 they want to talk about is Bitcoin. They keep asking me. 161 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:31.939 They're like, hey, Rutter, I think you guys know something 162 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:33.840 about this blockchain thing. Can you explain it to me? 163 00:08:34.500 --> 00:08:36.500 And that's when we knew there was something there. So 164 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:41.500 we just started having conversations. We had a meeting with Goldman, Citi, 165 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:46.000 with Deutsche. This was back in the summer of 2014. 166 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.279 They all said the same thing. We know that we 167 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:50.960 want to learn more about this and we don't really 168 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.840 understand it. And in particular, they all wanted to know 169 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:55.950 what their peers were thinking about what they were doing. 170 00:08:56.750 --> 00:08:59.490 So our angle back then, and it's still the same now, 171 00:08:59.549 --> 00:09:03.929 is that this is a network technology. So it's not 172 00:09:03.970 --> 00:09:08.110 about a bank or a corporation doing a thing on 173 00:09:08.190 --> 00:09:10.789 their own blockchain, right? That kind of defeats the purpose. 174 00:09:11.529 --> 00:09:15.309 It's about a market coming together and trying to do something. 175 00:09:15.929 --> 00:09:19.940 So that was the impetus behind R3. We weren't really 176 00:09:20.779 --> 00:09:22.720 pretending we had the answers because we thought it was 177 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:24.740 early and we were right, it wasn't early. But we 178 00:09:24.779 --> 00:09:27.320 knew that this would impact the way that banks do business. 179 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:31.620 And I think luckily we had enough credibility from our 180 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:34.809 backgrounds and for how we were approaching the problem that 181 00:09:35.029 --> 00:09:37.129 we were able to get, which was a bit of 182 00:09:37.149 --> 00:09:39.669 a surprise to us at the time. I think initially 183 00:09:39.750 --> 00:09:43.240 it was 42 banks around the table back in 2015. 184 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:45.080 And from that, we were able to create the company 185 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:47.779 and fund the company back in 2017. 186 00:09:47.779 --> 00:09:50.919 Pardon the interruption. Hi, I'm Tony. I'm the host of 187 00:09:50.940 --> 00:09:53.350 the Thinking Crypto podcast. I wanted to ask you if 188 00:09:53.370 --> 00:09:56.090 you can please support the podcast by hitting the like button, 189 00:09:56.409 --> 00:09:58.470 subscribing if you haven't as yet. You can leave a 190 00:09:58.509 --> 00:10:00.639 comment below as well. And if you're listening on a 191 00:10:00.669 --> 00:10:03.759 podcast platform such as Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get 192 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:06.740 your podcasts, please be sure to follow and hit the 193 00:10:06.779 --> 00:10:09.320 five-star rating. I'll let you get back to the content. 194 00:10:09.539 --> 00:10:12.960 Thank you so much. That's incredible. And you've gone through 195 00:10:13.019 --> 00:10:16.299 so many market cycles, ups and downs. I mean, the 196 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.039 Genster days at the SEC, the FTX collapses, where it 197 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:24.059 seemed like This industry may not survive. Were there any high, 198 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:27.159 you know, low points, I should say, where you're like, 199 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:28.440 are we doing the right thing? 200 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:32.759 So it's funny because it's a little bit different now, 201 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:36.480 but we were always aligned or maybe adjacent to the 202 00:10:36.500 --> 00:10:40.159 crypto market, but never fully in it. Not nearly to 203 00:10:40.179 --> 00:10:43.259 the point that we are today. So we were impacted 204 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.690 by market cycles, but in a very strange way. I 205 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:49.549 do recall, I actually recall a few different cycles. I 206 00:10:49.809 --> 00:10:53.450 don't think people remember, I think it was 2015 when 207 00:10:53.649 --> 00:10:57.389 Bitcoin was dead. Just nothing was happening. And I think 208 00:10:57.429 --> 00:11:00.610 that was probably the bleakest I'd ever seen it. Really 209 00:11:00.629 --> 00:11:03.110 smart people trying to do

interesting things that was just 210 00:11:03.169 --> 00:11:07.120 not going, just didn't survive. Every other cycle has been 211 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:10.539 a death and a rebirth. And we've had something come 212 00:11:10.580 --> 00:11:12.080 out of it. You know, the ICO boom and bust 213 00:11:12.659 --> 00:11:17.070 was the first, I think, experiment around, oh, actually, capital 214 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:21.750 formation can happen, you know, good and bad on blockchains. 215 00:11:22.649 --> 00:11:25.590 And then, you know, the next boom, the DeFi summer 216 00:11:25.690 --> 00:11:27.610 was really the durable thing that came out of that. 217 00:11:29.350 --> 00:11:32.460 So every time we went through some of these cycles, 218 00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:37.269 it was an interesting thing where we clearly would ride 219 00:11:37.309 --> 00:11:40.070 the wave of the euphoria or how things were, you know, 220 00:11:40.210 --> 00:11:42.870 people were getting excited. So there would be, budgets would 221 00:11:42.909 --> 00:11:45.850 be a little bit easier to come by and meetings 222 00:11:45.870 --> 00:11:49.149 would be easier to book. When the cycle turned, you know, 223 00:11:49.629 --> 00:11:54.500 it just, everyone just got sort of very, very attentive 224 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.860 to risk and things got pretty slow. I'd say probably 225 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.460 the hardest thing for us was entering into and trying 226 00:12:02.500 --> 00:12:06.000 to survive through COVID really was the, the biggest change 227 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:10.039 for us as, as a company. Because, you know, from 228 00:12:10.059 --> 00:12:12.759 day one, we were a global company. You know, we 229 00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:15.470 mentioned we, we got started, it was 42 banks. There 230 00:12:15.509 --> 00:12:18.970 were Japanese banks. We had four Australian banks. We, we 231 00:12:19.009 --> 00:12:24.470 were a 24 seven global company from, from literally day zero. 232 00:12:24.909 --> 00:12:27.769 So it was quite, it's quite difficult to, to manage 233 00:12:28.029 --> 00:12:32.820 that through global pandemic. But we were able to, to 234 00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:35.720 really adjust pretty quickly from that. So that was really exciting. 235 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:41.659 I think that the biggest challenge we probably faced was 236 00:12:41.710 --> 00:12:47.009 the one previous to our current partnership with the Solana 237 00:12:47.029 --> 00:12:49.570 Foundation and the work we're doing on Solana. And I 238 00:12:49.610 --> 00:12:53.690 think a big part of that was we had recognized 239 00:12:53.730 --> 00:12:58.879 that the world had changed. And quite frankly, what we 240 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:00.879 had been spending a lot of time on and we're 241 00:13:00.899 --> 00:13:03.710 still very proud of what we've done by building and 242 00:13:03.750 --> 00:13:07.929 supporting these private blockchain networks, that wasn't where the future was. 243 00:13:09.350 --> 00:13:14.460 Public and open networks had, one, they had survived through 244 00:13:14.620 --> 00:13:23.600 these many different crucibles. And that was really what we 245 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.700 feel today is the way forward. And so shifting the 246 00:13:26.740 --> 00:13:29.620 company from focusing on private blockchains, focusing on things like 247 00:13:29.659 --> 00:13:32.000 central bank digital currency to where we are today, which 248 00:13:32.100 --> 00:13:34.629 is all in on tokenizing the next trillion dollars of 249 00:13:34.690 --> 00:13:38.649 assets on open public blockchain rails. I think that was 250 00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:40.909 probably both the biggest challenge and also the thing I'm 251 00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:41.929 the most proud of. 252 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:46.559 Yeah, to your point, there was the hyperledgers and all 253 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.600 these private chains that were being pushed, but it seems 254 00:13:49.659 --> 00:13:52.200 now they can still exist, but they have to bridge 255 00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:55.080 to the public chains for settlement, liquidity, and all these things. 256 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:57.279 So do you see it being a hybrid world where 257 00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:00.669 the public chains have the lion's share of the market, 258 00:14:01.070 --> 00:14:04.190 but individual banks may partner together, have their own private chain, 259 00:14:04.210 --> 00:14:05.710 but they have to bridge to the public chain. 260 00:14:06.070 --> 00:14:08.409 Yeah, I think it'll be a hybrid. I think that 261 00:14:09.009 --> 00:14:12.990 all projects will have a potentially high failure rate. I 262 00:14:13.029 --> 00:14:16.409 would say that, you know, because when we started R3, 263 00:14:16.509 --> 00:14:18.909 it was really as a way for these banks and 264 00:14:18.980 --> 00:14:22.700 other financial institutions to come together initially to experiment and 265 00:14:22.740 --> 00:14:26.340 to run these projects that had multiple participants in them. 266 00:14:26.379 --> 00:14:27.899 So we kind of understood there would be a high 267 00:14:27.940 --> 00:14:30.860 failure rate. We probably ended up doing about 100 or 268 00:14:32.070 --> 00:14:35.330 plus projects, a handful of them turn into companies, their 269 00:14:35.370 --> 00:14:39.250 own consortium. Some of them exist today, some of them don't, 270 00:14:39.350 --> 00:14:42.990 the majority don't. And that was broadly what our expectation was. 271 00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:47.519 So I think that good ideas and good execution will 272 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:52.419 survive and thrive. So it may be a bit of 273 00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:59.159 a hybrid world. I would say that the degree of 274 00:14:59.210 --> 00:15:05.100 difficulty is obvious. much higher if you're trying to organize 275 00:15:05.299 --> 00:15:09.259 in a private blockchain network with not just really your peers, 276 00:15:09.299 --> 00:15:11.590 but your

competitors. I think that that's a very, very 277 00:15:11.659 --> 00:15:15.289 difficult coordination problem to solve. And it can be solved, 278 00:15:15.850 --> 00:15:19.629 but it's usually solved in a markets context when they're 279 00:15:19.649 --> 00:15:25.070 working through, say, an intermediary or a utility. So you 280 00:15:25.090 --> 00:15:28.309 think of some of our customers like Euroclear and Six Exchange, 281 00:15:28.730 --> 00:15:33.789 amazing examples of, market utilities and intermediaries that are providing 282 00:15:33.830 --> 00:15:38.710 a great service to multiple competitors. Sort of an organic 283 00:15:39.110 --> 00:15:42.850 private blockchain network where a bunch of competitors will play 284 00:15:42.909 --> 00:15:46.830 nice enough for that network to be successful, that's a 285 00:15:46.929 --> 00:15:54.029 harder prospect. So I think it's, generally speaking, it's probably 286 00:15:54.070 --> 00:15:57.279 a better path for banks, financial institutions, and others to 287 00:15:57.320 --> 00:15:59.350 focus on what's a net new product or a net 288 00:15:59.379 --> 00:16:01.850 new customer base I can reach through an open public 289 00:16:01.889 --> 00:16:07.029 network than to try in the private networks. But there 290 00:16:07.070 --> 00:16:08.889 is still a lot to be done and a lot of, 291 00:16:10.289 --> 00:16:14.519 I'd say, services and connectivity to bring not just assets 292 00:16:14.539 --> 00:16:17.139 that are on private blockchains, but all assets into these 293 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:21.620 open rails. And that's gonna be done through a mix 294 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:26.200 of things, through tech, through relationships, through legal agreements. So 295 00:16:26.379 --> 00:16:27.620 that's really the focus of our work now. 296 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.860 So for the audience who have not heard about R3, 297 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.990 so you are essentially like a conductor bringing these different folks, 298 00:16:38.029 --> 00:16:42.929 institutions and platforms together and helping them to get on chain, 299 00:16:42.970 --> 00:16:45.750 so to speak, right? In different ways, tokenizations and things 300 00:16:45.789 --> 00:16:49.850 like that. Using Corda, but also along with Solana, is 301 00:16:49.870 --> 00:16:51.080 that right? Yeah. 302 00:16:51.820 --> 00:16:55.500 So back in, I'd say, 2016, we were looking at 303 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.409 what was out there. And this is pre-mainnet of Ethereum. 304 00:17:00.549 --> 00:17:03.250 And looking at what options are out there. And we 305 00:17:04.349 --> 00:17:07.970 ended up convening a bunch of our customers, which were 306 00:17:08.009 --> 00:17:13.259 the banks, and with their help, designed a private blockchain 307 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:18.019 protocol called Corda and open sourced it and and then, uh, 308 00:17:18.220 --> 00:17:20.740 supported a software. So there were, as I mentioned before, 309 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.339 there are hundreds of projects that were, uh, tried on 310 00:17:23.380 --> 00:17:25.440 Corda and there's, there are some great ones that are 311 00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:29.539 running today. Uh, about a year and a half ago, 312 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:33.069 we established a partnership with Solana and we've been building 313 00:17:33.349 --> 00:17:37.509 a Solana protocol, uh, also called Corda, uh, that we 314 00:17:37.529 --> 00:17:41.529 will be, uh, imminently, uh, going live with. And the 315 00:17:41.549 --> 00:17:45.400 focus of that is, is very simple. R3, uh, On 316 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:49.369 the R3 side, we want to be the on-ramp for 317 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:52.130 the next trillion dollars of assets. So this is fixed 318 00:17:52.150 --> 00:17:57.849 income alternatives. There's an enormous universe of assets, especially yield, 319 00:17:58.369 --> 00:18:02.230 to bring on-chain to existing on-chain customers. And with the 320 00:18:02.289 --> 00:18:07.299 Corda Protocol on Solana, which is stewarded by the Corda Foundation, 321 00:18:07.339 --> 00:18:09.599 which actually I'll be moving over to the Corda Foundation 322 00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:12.900 in a handful of weeks to help to lead that effort. 323 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:16.900 the focus there is once you bring these assets on chain, 324 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.250 when you get this yield into, uh, these open networks, 325 00:18:21.549 --> 00:18:24.450 how do you make it productive and useful? How do you, 326 00:18:24.990 --> 00:18:27.009 how do you allow for it to be used as collateral? 327 00:18:27.109 --> 00:18:29.970 How can you provide better liquidity for what, you know, 328 00:18:29.990 --> 00:18:31.690 quote unquote tokenize RWAs? 329 00:18:31.710 --> 00:18:32.779 Sure. 330 00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:34.920 Um, so that's the main focus now. 331 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:39.019 So why Solana? Why not Ethereum, Avalanche or other blockchains 332 00:18:39.059 --> 00:18:40.099 out there? Yeah. 333 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:43.769 So we've, uh, We have a lot of experience with 334 00:18:43.809 --> 00:18:47.450 a lot of different technology. So in building our own blockchain, 335 00:18:48.349 --> 00:18:51.690 helping to build applications for customers, spent a lot of 336 00:18:51.730 --> 00:18:55.849 time actually evaluating blockchain platforms a few years back when 337 00:18:55.869 --> 00:18:59.079 we were thinking about shifting the focus of the company. 338 00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:05.539 Solana was a very, very easy choice for us. I'd 339 00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:09.359 say roughly around three big reasons. One, if you think 340 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:13.599 about just the technology, a very big supporter of a 341 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:17.160 single main net that you can scale through. So there 342 00:19:17.180 --> 00:19:19.720 are definitely other approaches. You know, you have Ethereum with 343 00:19:19.779 --> 00:19:23.730 layer two approach and some subnets and those

approaches that 344 00:19:23.750 --> 00:19:26.890 I think they can work. I think having both the 345 00:19:26.970 --> 00:19:31.089 technical and that sort of logical architectural approach of saying 346 00:19:31.410 --> 00:19:34.430 we want to concentrate as much activity and liquidity onto 347 00:19:34.630 --> 00:19:38.170 one single main net is very, very attractive. And also 348 00:19:38.190 --> 00:19:41.700 it's a very, very straightforward and simple concept for say 349 00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:46.799 executives at banks to understand and as a former reformed 350 00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:51.000 markets guy, concentrating liquidity was always a very, very big 351 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:55.960 focus of mine. So that's definitely one. I'd say two 352 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:03.690 is Solana, Solana Foundation is incredibly focused on how they 353 00:20:03.750 --> 00:20:07.970 can help institutions be successful. So So not only was 354 00:20:08.009 --> 00:20:10.710 it a technical fit, it was very much a cultural 355 00:20:10.750 --> 00:20:13.730 and a strategic fit. So I think if you think 356 00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:18.470 about how everything is hard, working in institutions potentially is 357 00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:25.069 even harder. You need to have that consistent and persistent 358 00:20:25.210 --> 00:20:28.069 focus and have it really be part of the long-term strategy. 359 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:31.410 So that's something that was very evident to us in 360 00:20:31.710 --> 00:20:39.119 working with the Salana Foundation. So that's been amazing. And, um, 361 00:20:39.589 --> 00:20:41.609 I think, you know, three, it's very interesting. If you 362 00:20:41.630 --> 00:20:45.529 think about, uh, blockchain networks, Solana is very much here 363 00:20:45.549 --> 00:20:48.809 to stay. So they have been through their own near 364 00:20:48.829 --> 00:20:49.750 death experience moment. 365 00:20:49.849 --> 00:20:50.269 Yes. Right. 366 00:20:51.289 --> 00:20:53.869 And I think they are much better for it. And it's, 367 00:20:54.369 --> 00:20:57.150 if you think across not just capital formation, but, but 368 00:20:57.170 --> 00:21:02.710 just Solana and the network as, as, uh, as a capital, as, 369 00:21:02.890 --> 00:21:07.140 as an asset. It's being accepted by institutions. It really 370 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.769 is becoming an approved network for banks and others to 371 00:21:11.809 --> 00:21:15.730 do things on, which is a huge hurdle. And they've 372 00:21:15.750 --> 00:21:18.470 been churning through that over the last handful of years. 373 00:21:18.490 --> 00:21:21.569 And so it really gives them a really big, I think, 374 00:21:21.769 --> 00:21:22.190 head start. 375 00:21:23.089 --> 00:21:28.940 You mentioned Corda will be on Solana. Noob question, rookie question. 376 00:21:29.099 --> 00:21:30.960 Is it like a layer two, so to speak? 377 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.079 So, yeah, it's a great question. Well, one of the 378 00:21:34.119 -->

00:21:37.859 things that drew us to Solana was the focus on 379 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:42.019 bringing things on-chain, not as an abstraction, as a layer two. 380 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.720 So we have, as I mentioned before, we have customers 381 00:21:45.740 --> 00:21:49.240 that are running, effectively running Corda as a private network. 382 00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:54.349 So those are their own sovereign networks. Through Corda Protocol 383 00:21:54.529 --> 00:21:58.509 on Solana, it really has two jobs. One is as 384 00:21:58.890 --> 00:22:02.460 effectively as... RWA yield vaults to be able to package 385 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.440 yield that we're helping to originate and bring on chain. 386 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:09.460 That's one. Two, it's a way for these existing quarter 387 00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:13.660 private networks to bring their assets to Solana. But it's 388 00:22:13.779 --> 00:22:19.069 very much not about separating out these transactions. You're going 389 00:22:19.089 --> 00:22:22.710 back to like, you know, why Solana? They've been very, 390 00:22:22.730 --> 00:22:27.190 very thoughtful around trying to keep permissions and permissioning at 391 00:22:27.230 --> 00:22:32.700 the right level. So having a single blockchain which you 392 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:37.559 can rely on as opposed to having the bifurcated liquidity 393 00:22:37.579 --> 00:22:40.279 in Layer 2 is not something that we're really that 394 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:44.180 interested in. So that was a very, very conscious choice. 395 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:46.039 And when we were thinking about it, how we're going 396 00:22:46.099 --> 00:22:49.119 to implement this, how we want to execute was to 397 00:22:49.180 --> 00:22:54.359 avoid this Layer 2 model and instead bring assets on-chain 398 00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:56.119 to these open networks. 399 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.740 Mm-hmm. Now, the institutions, the banks and so forth that 400 00:22:59.779 --> 00:23:02.740 are working with you, what's their highest priority right now? 401 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.329 Is it tokenization of assets? Is it payments? Is it 402 00:23:06.369 --> 00:23:08.950 putting data on chain or all of the above? 403 00:23:09.549 --> 00:23:16.869 So I'd say right now, every bank has a stablecoin 404 00:23:16.890 --> 00:23:21.930 slash tokenized deposit strategy. Almost every bank and financial institution 405 00:23:21.950 --> 00:23:26.890 has a tokenized RWA or tokenization strategy. Above and beyond that, 406 00:23:27.019 --> 00:23:30.380 I think it's, if you think about data, that's probably 407 00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:32.599 a little bit down the road, a little bit less so. 408 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:37.339 But as we were looking at where the opportunities are, 409 00:23:38.140 --> 00:23:40.539 you look at stablecoins specifically, it really was the very 410 00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:45.920 first successful token as RWA. And I think banks are 411 00:23:45.940 --> 00:23:50.900 still trying to come to grips with how they either 412 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.480 take advantage or compete with stablecoins, still to be determined. 413 00:23:56.690 --> 00:24:01.849 As you've seen, there's still, I guess, industry consortium that 414 00:24:01.930 --> 00:24:04.549 are trying to be stood up, whether it's around tokenized 415 00:24:04.569 --> 00:24:08.069 deposits or things that are close to central bank digital 416 00:24:08.109 --> 00:24:12.009 currency or even bank stablecoins. And I think that'll continue. 417 00:24:14.569 --> 00:24:17.869 I think that it's probably a better path to be 418 00:24:17.910 --> 00:24:22.910 looking at existing open stablecoins and trying to understand how 419 00:24:22.930 --> 00:24:25.089 they can interact with them as opposed to trying to 420 00:24:25.569 --> 00:24:28.109 control that, but to be determined. I think on the 421 00:24:28.170 --> 00:24:32.700 tokenized RWA side, it's a lot, it's a lot of a, 422 00:24:32.690 --> 00:24:34.079 I don't know if it's a cleaner, but it's just a, 423 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:37.359 it fits together a lot better than, it's not as adversarial, 424 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:39.720 in my view, as say where stable coins could be, 425 00:24:39.779 --> 00:24:43.720 because obviously with stable coins, you're thinking about, as we've seen, 426 00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:45.599 we saw with the fight with Genius and some of 427 00:24:45.619 --> 00:24:48.880 these other things, that's getting into really the core of 428 00:24:49.180 --> 00:24:50.960 a bank, around the interest margin, et cetera, et cetera, 429 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:51.559 all that stuff. 430 00:24:51.579 --> 00:24:53.039 Right. 431 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:59.539 On, tokenized RWA, banks are generally an originate-to-distribute machine. So 432 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:05.039 having a tool and potentially even a net new pool 433 00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:08.539 of capital to distribute to, so the tool being tokenization 434 00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:14.210 and these pools of capital being crypto wealth, increasingly stablecoin reserves, 435 00:25:14.730 --> 00:25:21.259 it's an amazing opportunity. It's something that in our conversations 436 00:25:21.299 --> 00:25:23.039 with them, they see as something that adds to their 437 00:25:23.059 --> 00:25:26.640 current business, adds to their current revenue, and isn't really 438 00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:27.140 a threat. 439 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.220 That makes sense. And I know you said some of 440 00:25:31.259 --> 00:25:34.569 it is TBD because there's still some battles happening and 441 00:25:35.029 --> 00:25:36.049 things to be sorted out. 442 00:25:36.069 --> 00:25:37.710 Well, isn't life always TBD? 443 00:25:37.990 --> 00:25:42.569 Yeah. Really quick, going back to the Solana item, with 444 00:25:42.589 --> 00:25:45.650 bridging between a private chain and a public chain, how 445 00:25:45.710 --> 00:25:49.880 are you maintaining privacy and security in that

process? 446 00:25:50.309 --> 00:25:54.410 So there's a few different ways you can try to 447 00:25:54.430 --> 00:25:59.000 bridge assets and move assets. The model that we've supported 448 00:25:59.019 --> 00:26:01.039 for a while, and we've done open source work in this, 449 00:26:01.099 --> 00:26:03.960 and this is how we've implemented it with the quarter protocol, 450 00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:08.720 is you can have effectively an escrow and mint pattern. 451 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:13.960 So you're effectively escrowing an off-chain asset somewhere if it's, say, 452 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.220 on a private blockchain network, and you're then minting it 453 00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:19.329 onto the destination network. In this case, it would be 454 00:26:19.849 --> 00:26:25.170 Solana our view on, or you can have a pattern 455 00:26:25.190 --> 00:26:29.950 where you keep your asset completely off Solana, for example, 456 00:26:30.099 --> 00:26:33.180 and use Solana as the settlement network. So you can 457 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.299 have delivery versus payment, a DVP, where the delivery happens 458 00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:38.160 on the private network and the payment happens on the 459 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:42.920 public network. And you can effectively have all the data 460 00:26:42.980 --> 00:26:47.690 of the transaction on the private side. That's one approach. 461 00:26:48.210 --> 00:26:51.519 I'd say overall, if you think about one of the 462 00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:54.660 ways that Solana has evolved is that they're trying to 463 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:58.589 put privacy controls at the right level of the stack. 464 00:26:59.809 --> 00:27:02.289 It's somewhat of a brute force thing to, to create 465 00:27:02.309 --> 00:27:04.809 a layer two to, to high transactions effective from the 466 00:27:04.849 --> 00:27:09.289 layer one. Um, the Solana approach is really, it's, you 467 00:27:09.329 --> 00:27:13.319 can have some level of obfuscation or, uh, or privacy 468 00:27:13.410 --> 00:27:14.460 at that transaction level. 469 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:14.880 Sure. 470 00:27:14.980 --> 00:27:19.079 While the confirmation of the transaction within the Solana network is, 471 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:19.619 is open. 472 00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:24.279 Hmm. Because I know for institutions, especially banks, privacy is 473 00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:26.480 so important. So it sounds like you guys have gotten 474 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:29.779 that figured out and it's up and running and working well. Yeah. 475 00:27:29.900 --> 00:27:32.599 I mean, it's been a big driver from day one 476 00:27:32.859 --> 00:27:33.180 at R3. 477 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:38.650 Right. Right. Absolutely. So Todd, with these institutions looking to 478 00:27:39.009 --> 00:27:41.329 put a lot of assets on chain and which will 479 00:27:41.509 --> 00:27:45.150 create 24-7, 365 markets, make them more global. You mentioned 480 00:27:45.190 --> 00:27:46.430 earlier distribution, right?

481 00:27:46.509 --> 00:27:47.269 Yeah. 482 00:27:47.450 --> 00:27:50.819 What does that look like by 2030? Are we seeing... 10%, 15%, 483 00:27:50.819 --> 00:27:52.960 20% of assets on chain? 484 00:27:53.940 --> 00:27:59.180 So from your lips to God's ears, I hope so. 485 00:27:59.259 --> 00:28:02.809 I think it's going to be certain segments of the 486 00:28:02.829 --> 00:28:08.509 market may have higher adoption and others are lower. I 487 00:28:08.829 --> 00:28:12.210 definitely do see that as the direction of travel. And 488 00:28:12.250 --> 00:28:15.400 it's not surprising how it started to evolve where it's 489 00:28:16.259 --> 00:28:18.630 potentially kind of the bottom up from like the most 490 00:28:18.730 --> 00:28:23.069 fungible assets. So dollars initially, and now say money market funds, 491 00:28:23.269 --> 00:28:27.490 you know, very fungible types of, uh, of assets. Um, 492 00:28:28.109 --> 00:28:29.430 but I think you're going to start to see this 493 00:28:30.109 --> 00:28:32.759 moving up in complexity after the money markets. Now we've 494 00:28:32.779 --> 00:28:36.079 had tokenized equities still, I mean, not necessarily simple, but 495 00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:39.619 somewhat straightforward. Uh, but over time, I think you're going 496 00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:42.880 to see more and more complex, uh, assets in particular, 497 00:28:43.990 --> 00:28:46.779 those yielding assets that I think that are potentially lacking 498 00:28:46.930 --> 00:28:49.880 on-chain today will be the next area. And that's the 499 00:28:49.900 --> 00:28:54.500 main area that we're focused on. I'd say, you know, 500 00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:57.059 within the next four or five years, you're going to 501 00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:01.809 start to see some of these financial institutions, not just banks, 502 00:29:01.829 --> 00:29:04.430 but asset managers and others move very aggressively into the space. 503 00:29:05.910 --> 00:29:09.099 The SEC just last week provided an exemption for tokenized 504 00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:13.069 securities stocks and things like that. the AMC CEO came 505 00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:15.549 out against Robinhood. So it seems there's still a lot 506 00:29:15.589 --> 00:29:18.670 to be ironed out and figured out here. Do you 507 00:29:18.730 --> 00:29:21.630 see any risks? Are the banks presenting any risks to you? Like, hey, 508 00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:22.450 what about this? 509 00:29:23.589 --> 00:29:29.029 Yeah, there's risk. But I mean, the AMC Robinhood fight 510 00:29:29.089 --> 00:29:30.809 was like, it's probably the best thing that happened to 511 00:29:30.849 --> 00:29:37.549 tokenize equities all year. It was amazing. So I think 512 00:29:37.569 --> 00:29:39.210 there's clearly going to be. 513 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.579 Some risk on the regulatory side, although I think it 514 00:29:46.299 --> 00:29:50.279 was actually probably the best case scenario of what actually 515 00:29:50.299 --> 00:29:55.200 ended up occurring. It was probably a little too optimistic 516 00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:57.829 and too difficult to get everything sort of wrapped up into, say, 517 00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:02.400 one bill with clarity and So having the agencies instead 518 00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:05.440 getting involved and trying to provide guidance is probably even 519 00:30:05.480 --> 00:30:10.740 better for the industry. Since the beginning of R3, we've 520 00:30:10.809 --> 00:30:16.230 always had regulatory clarity as an excuse to not do things. 521 00:30:17.470 --> 00:30:20.410 If you were a bank executive or someone that's just 522 00:30:20.430 --> 00:30:22.509 trying to survive to the next bonus cycle kind of thing. 523 00:30:24.579 --> 00:30:28.700 I haven't really seen that be a real excuse, and 524 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:31.609 I don't really see it. being a blocker over the 525 00:30:31.670 --> 00:30:37.150 next handful of years. I think if, as in when, 526 00:30:38.109 --> 00:30:42.569 institutions and, I would say, service providers and protocols, and 527 00:30:42.589 --> 00:30:45.690 this is very much what we're doing, adhere to existing 528 00:30:45.970 --> 00:30:49.910 securities laws while they're still trying to reach new customers 529 00:30:50.009 --> 00:30:56.009 and create novel products that give customers more choices for yield, 530 00:30:56.470 --> 00:30:59.130 as long as that happens, I think everything will be a-okay. 531 00:30:59.609 --> 00:31:05.490 The challenges will come if certain projects pretend these securities 532 00:31:05.529 --> 00:31:06.190 laws don't exist. 533 00:31:07.539 --> 00:31:09.759 Yeah, that makes sense. 534 00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:14.539 Which surprisingly is something that we have heard from some 535 00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:17.940 of our partners and customers where some of the projects 536 00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:20.619 do come and pitch some of these financial institutions with 537 00:31:20.660 --> 00:31:21.500 some magical thinking. 538 00:31:22.059 --> 00:31:26.049 So Todd, what's interesting, the SEC provided right crypto. It's 539 00:31:26.069 --> 00:31:28.250 still in the comment period. But could that be a 540 00:31:28.269 --> 00:31:32.400 game changer? Because You mentioned ICOs back in 2017 earlier. 541 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.299 That makes ICOs regulated. Are there certain guardrails? 542 00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:37.740 Certain guardrails, yes. 543 00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:40.740 And could that open up institutions and say, hey, the 544 00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:43.220 token we wanted to launch to do X or Y, 545 00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:45.259 we can do it now as long as we stay 546 00:31:45.299 --> 00:31:48.140 within those guidelines? 547 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:55.019 I think the reg crypto rules will... lead to some 548 00:31:55.170 --> 00:31:57.579 interesting experiments. I think the hard part is always if 549 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.200 you look at the fine print, the size is fairly 550 00:32:00.240 -->

00:32:04.500 small of what you can do. But anything that effectively 551 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:06.680 runs back the ICO but does it in a way 552 00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:08.859 that's more credible, I think would be very, very helpful 553 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:16.700 because I'm a huge believer in on-chain capital formation. There's 554 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:20.309 going to be twists and turns and some projects maybe 555 00:32:20.349 --> 00:32:21.730 get it slightly wrong, but I think it's a really, 556 00:32:21.750 --> 00:32:24.359 really important thing to start to keep experimenting with. I'm 557 00:32:24.380 --> 00:32:28.059 a huge believer in not just tokenizing RWA, but how 558 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:33.460 actual project tokens and utility tokens can help with some 559 00:32:33.500 --> 00:32:37.339 of these ecosystems. So the more experiments, I think, the better. 560 00:32:38.299 --> 00:32:42.900 And the more examples that we start to see where 561 00:32:43.089 --> 00:32:45.730 these innovative projects can be doing things that maybe look 562 00:32:45.750 --> 00:32:48.970 a little bit strange and weird, but are compliance and 563 00:32:49.690 --> 00:32:51.700 don't rug people, the better off we'll all be. 564 00:32:51.730 --> 00:32:54.940 Yes. Yeah, for sure. And I can't wait to get 565 00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:58.180 to that position or a place where rug pulls are 566 00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:00.099 a thing of the past. Yes. 567 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.539 One of our goals is hopefully everything we do will 568 00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:04.430 be as unruggable as possible. 569 00:33:04.769 --> 00:33:07.529 Yeah. And obviously institutions are not looking to do that. 570 00:33:07.650 --> 00:33:12.789 I think that's more so in the meme coin crowd, right? Yeah. Look, 571 00:33:12.809 --> 00:33:15.970 there's always bad actors, right? You never know. Barney Madoff 572 00:33:16.009 --> 00:33:18.380 was a bad actor in a regulated market. I agree. 573 00:33:20.009 --> 00:33:21.630 I worked with a lot of characters back in, uh, 574 00:33:22.210 --> 00:33:24.650 in the old FX days. Let's just say that, um, 575 00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:27.799 you know, brown paper bags filled with money were, uh, 576 00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:29.400 did happen from time to time. Wow. 577 00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:30.700 Under the table, huh? 578 00:33:31.220 --> 00:33:33.180 Statue of limitations was run off. I was not involved. 579 00:33:33.220 --> 00:33:35.140 This was stories I heard third hand. 580 00:33:36.740 --> 00:33:39.500 Yeah. We've seen it in the movies, right? Wolf of 581 00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:41.279 Wall Street, Boiler Room. Yeah. 582 00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:42.539 They were part documentary. 583 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:48.809 Yeah. So with the institutions that you're working with, um, 584 00:33:49.450 --> 00:33:51.640 What are they looking at down the line as far 585 00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.119 as other assets they want to tokenize? Is it real estate? 586 00:33:54.539 --> 00:33:57.140 Is it precious metals? Anything along those lines? 587 00:33:57.660 --> 00:34:03.390 So what we're seeing currently is really across sort of 588 00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:05.490 fixed income and alternatives. That's where a lot of the 589 00:34:05.529 --> 00:34:08.570 focus is. We actually spent a fair bit of time 590 00:34:08.690 --> 00:34:11.329 on private credit. I still think it's going to be 591 00:34:11.530 --> 00:34:17.489 an interesting area. But I'd say there's still some challenges 592 00:34:17.510 --> 00:34:20.500 to be worked out. where there's a fit between what, say, 593 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:25.219 an asset manager that's running, say, a private credit strategy 594 00:34:26.340 --> 00:34:30.500 and what a DeFi investor is looking for, which is 595 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:35.289 one wants, obviously, AUM. They want money in, and they 596 00:34:35.309 --> 00:34:37.789 would like to keep it for 7 to 10 years. 597 00:34:38.869 --> 00:34:41.610 And a DeFi investor wants to own a yielding asset 598 00:34:41.630 --> 00:34:45.110 that can be used as collateral on-chain and have the 599 00:34:45.190 --> 00:34:51.179 option to exit Immediately. So bridging that duration gap is 600 00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:55.429 going to be pretty challenging. So we've spent a little 601 00:34:55.449 --> 00:34:58.889 bit less time on private credit than, than, uh, recently 602 00:34:59.469 --> 00:35:04.929 and looking at things along structured products. Uh, the, I 603 00:35:04.969 --> 00:35:09.110 think the longer tail of, of still bankable assets, but 604 00:35:09.130 --> 00:35:13.070 then maybe are a little bit less, um, uh, prevalent 605 00:35:13.309 --> 00:35:15.869 in today's financial world that can still have an attractive 606 00:35:15.889 --> 00:35:19.380 yield profile to existing on-chain investors. So that's where our 607 00:35:19.460 --> 00:35:25.380 area focuses. And importantly, it's around products that have liquidity 608 00:35:25.420 --> 00:35:29.360 that is not maybe all the way approaching to instance 609 00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:31.179 without a little bit of elbow grease and a little 610 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.730 bit of product design, but that out of the box 611 00:35:33.750 --> 00:35:37.449 are daily liquidity products. I think that's quite important. Because 612 00:35:38.610 --> 00:35:47.690 it's not so much that on-chain investors need bottomless liquidity. 613 00:35:48.579 --> 00:35:51.159 sell these assets. They need to know it's there. And 614 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:56.000 also those that accept these tokenized things as collateral need 615 00:35:56.039 --> 00:35:58.280 to know that they can exit as well. So if 616 00:35:58.300 --> 00:36:03.750 you don't have that, it's really, honestly, it's not that exciting. 617 00:36:03.949 --> 00:36:05.730 And I don't think the RWA market on-chain is going 618 00:36:05.750 --> 00:36:06.050 to grow. 619 00:36:07.489 --> 00:36:09.809 That makes sense. And I know as we

get into 620 00:36:10.050 --> 00:36:13.579 other types of assets and commodities, there's going to have 621 00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:16.329 to be the market makers that come to provide the 622 00:36:16.369 --> 00:36:18.820 liquidity and get it all up and running because it's 623 00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:22.159 not there on-chain right now. And that could be institutions 624 00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:24.619 or it could be smaller crypto companies. 625 00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:28.500 I'd say, so you mentioned like 2030. I do think 626 00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:30.440 that over the next three, four years, you're going to 627 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:33.579 start to see off-chain and on-chain balance sheets sort of 628 00:36:34.260 --> 00:36:36.980 meld together. So right now there's a bit of a, 629 00:36:37.690 --> 00:36:39.570 there's more than a bit of a disconnect between these 630 00:36:39.610 --> 00:36:43.730 two worlds. And if you think about market making on-chain, 631 00:36:44.550 --> 00:36:47.090 It's a great business, right? It's fairly capital intensive and 632 00:36:47.110 --> 00:36:49.349 the bar, the cost capital is quite high for market makers. 633 00:36:50.070 --> 00:36:54.909 Then you introduce, say, a tokenized real world asset that 634 00:36:54.969 --> 00:37:01.099 has some conditions around maybe KYC or geofencing or some 635 00:37:01.139 --> 00:37:03.019 conditions on if I hold it, how can I sell it? 636 00:37:04.780 --> 00:37:08.019 It's not the most fun thing for a crypto market 637 00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:11.510 maker to get involved with. And they're still looking for 638 00:37:11.550 --> 00:37:14.449 this effective rate of return to overcome their cost of capital. 639 00:37:15.369 --> 00:37:19.519 Whereas there is off-chain capital that if it were presented 640 00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:21.559 with the rates that you can get for potentially, say, 641 00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:24.340 making markets or providing liquidity to on-chain RWA, it'd be 642 00:37:24.380 --> 00:37:26.539 quite happy. So how do you bring these two together? 643 00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:30.940 And if you kind of think about what R3 has been, 644 00:37:30.980 --> 00:37:34.780 that's been the role we've played is linking these two 645 00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:38.510 disparate worlds together. So it's something that we're quite focused 646 00:37:38.570 --> 00:37:41.349 on is how can we How can we bring not 647 00:37:41.389 --> 00:37:45.570 only net new products and yield to on-chain investors through tokenization, 648 00:37:46.030 --> 00:37:48.289 but then how do we introduce some of the opportunities 649 00:37:49.269 --> 00:37:51.610 on-chain to off-chain capital? 650 00:37:54.389 --> 00:37:58.880 Now, with the tokenization that's happening that you're helping to facilitate, 651 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:04.840 are the institutions primarily targeting high net worth individuals, accredited investors, 652 00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:07.900 or are they planning to open a segment of those

653 00:38:08.059 --> 00:38:10.329 tokenized assets to the average Joe and Jane? 654 00:38:10.789 --> 00:38:13.449 So a lot of this depends on the product. Uh, 655 00:38:13.570 --> 00:38:17.570 so first and foremost, what we're focused on right now is, 656 00:38:18.230 --> 00:38:22.559 is we feel that there is a, uh, segment of, 657 00:38:22.780 --> 00:38:26.820 of effective on-chain wealth and investors that are looking for 658 00:38:26.860 --> 00:38:28.880 net new products. So there's customers on chain today. We 659 00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:32.639 don't have to go off chain to find those customers, right? The, uh, 660 00:38:34.300 --> 00:38:36.920 some products, you think of some structured products and others 661 00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:42.800 need to have, uh, very careful consideration on distribution around 662 00:38:42.940 --> 00:38:46.579 credit and investor status and which jurisdictions you are distributing 663 00:38:46.619 --> 00:38:51.840 these products. But I still think that there is a very, 664 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:57.969 very big demand for effectively, say, non-US on-chain investors, as 665 00:38:57.989 --> 00:39:01.389 you've seen with tokenized equities and other products. Within the 666 00:39:01.429 --> 00:39:02.989 yield space, I think that there's a lot to be 667 00:39:03.030 --> 00:39:08.570 done there. What is, I'd say, exciting is we. 668 00:39:10.139 --> 00:39:12.679 We're focused on bringing on products that are for accredited 669 00:39:12.699 --> 00:39:18.869 investors and products that are for certain market segments. The 670 00:39:19.090 --> 00:39:22.769 benefit of having an on-chain protocol of Corda and the 671 00:39:23.130 --> 00:39:26.789 packaging and the work that we're doing and our understanding 672 00:39:26.829 --> 00:39:31.030 of how these assets work, and how to work with 673 00:39:31.070 --> 00:39:36.449 different origination partners, there's definitely, I think, a great opportunity 674 00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:41.840 to bring yield on-chain that's very compliant, adhering to the 675 00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:45.710 securities law, and making sure we get the user experience 676 00:39:45.730 --> 00:39:49.510 of the UX right, that it is offered to more 677 00:39:49.550 --> 00:39:53.739 and more on-chain customers. So lowering that bar, so minimums 678 00:39:53.969 --> 00:39:59.179 come down, potentially accredited investor limits can come down or 679 00:39:59.219 --> 00:40:01.179 maybe be eliminated depending on how you package it and 680 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:06.179 how you originate these products. I think what we want 681 00:40:06.219 --> 00:40:09.150 to get to, and you see some examples of this today, 682 00:40:09.230 --> 00:40:13.679 is you want effectively like a stablecoin like UX where 683 00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:19.219 you're still getting exposure to yields that is trustworthy, unruggable, 684 00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:21.440 something you can touch and feel, something that is backed 685 00:40:21.480 -->

00:40:26.000 by a real-world asset. I think that's the dream, and 686 00:40:26.019 --> 00:40:27.699 that's what we're focused on long-term. 687 00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:31.809 I'm sure many institutions, they want as much distribution as possible. 688 00:40:32.050 --> 00:40:33.510 Yes. The fees, right? 689 00:40:33.530 --> 00:40:36.369 Because someone in South America or a country in Africa 690 00:40:37.090 --> 00:40:40.369 has a smartphone, and they can get a tokenized version 691 00:40:40.409 --> 00:40:43.409 of Tesla or Apple, which they couldn't access before. And 692 00:40:43.429 --> 00:40:46.510 even if it's a fraction of it, still, right, it's 693 00:40:46.530 --> 00:40:49.550 just distribution. It's getting it to the hands of millions, 694 00:40:49.590 --> 00:40:50.730 billions of people around the world. 695 00:40:50.750 --> 00:40:55.780 Yeah, so I've spent time with very longstanding, very conservative 696 00:40:55.860 --> 00:41:00.239 asset managers. And it's amazing to hear what they believe. 697 00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:03.840 They believe, and it's not a belief, they can see 698 00:41:03.860 --> 00:41:07.179 the data. There's an intergenerational wealth transfer. That's number one. 699 00:41:07.820 --> 00:41:12.269 Number two is as that wealth is transferred, how this 700 00:41:12.329 --> 00:41:15.630 generation is interacting with their wealth and managing it. It's 701 00:41:15.739 --> 00:41:20.400 not going into a mahogany boardroom and trying to understand 702 00:41:20.420 --> 00:41:22.519 what they're going to do for the next year or two. 703 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:27.340 It's through their wallet on their phone. So these asset 704 00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.300 managers know they have to not only be there for 705 00:41:30.340 --> 00:41:34.159 these new customers, they have to actually be right there 706 00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:37.360 on chain. And one thing I wouldn't be surprised to 707 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:42.000 see in the next couple of years, very conservative yet 708 00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:48.000 very successful asset manager types moving to become true on-chain curators, 709 00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:48.800 as an example. 710 00:41:49.590 --> 00:41:53.110 I feel like BlackRock, they definitely want that. If they 711 00:41:53.150 --> 00:41:55.489 can get their ETFs out there to everybody, they would 712 00:41:55.550 --> 00:41:55.969 love that. 713 00:41:56.070 --> 00:41:57.530 Yes, an ETF in every pot, yes. 714 00:41:57.590 --> 00:41:57.949 Yeah. 715 00:41:58.309 --> 00:42:00.369 Yes. 716 00:42:01.429 --> 00:42:03.289 I'm not sure if this is too early to talk 717 00:42:03.329 --> 00:42:06.320 about this, but are the institutions looking at AI agents 718 00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:09.829 and AI in helping to manage those assets in any 719 00:42:09.869 --> 00:42:11.710 way or incorporating it in any way? 720 00:42:11.849 --> 00:42:17.409 Yeah. So if you play forward vaults, for example, right, there's, 721 00:42:17.590 --> 00:42:22.440 and this is also a conversation I've had where the 722 00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:25.079 vaults can be this new product packaging. So instead of 723 00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:29.880 going from effectively like a product led investment where it say, Hey, 724 00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:32.920 I'm an, I'm an investment manager and I want to 725 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:38.030 have three flavors, you know, vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry, ice cream, whatever. 726 00:42:38.050 --> 00:42:40.829 It's three flavors of investment because it's really, that's all 727 00:42:40.869 --> 00:42:44.309 I can create with the complexity. So I think you're 728 00:42:44.329 --> 00:42:46.909 a conservative investor, you're an aggressive investor, you're a mix. 729 00:42:46.929 --> 00:42:49.710 So these are my three products. Can that be flipped 730 00:42:49.750 --> 00:42:54.559 around to be very customer-centric? So potentially, today you're a 731 00:42:54.579 --> 00:42:57.719 conservative investor, but your needs and your approach changes over time. 732 00:42:58.619 --> 00:43:02.760 And so my one-size-fits-all product doesn't really fit what you 733 00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:07.199 need six months from now, can it be hyper-personalized and 734 00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:10.320 much more dynamic and allowed to evolve over time within 735 00:43:10.420 --> 00:43:16.199 certain guardrails? And that's, I think, something that's incredibly exciting 736 00:43:16.940 --> 00:43:20.679 for asset managers. The problem that they have today is 737 00:43:20.739 --> 00:43:26.469 the cost of that is astronomically high through how they 738 00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:31.630 build products today. The more and more of the underlying, effectively, 739 00:43:31.670 --> 00:43:36.929 investment in raw materials that are tokenized on-chain, the marginal 740 00:43:36.949 --> 00:43:40.210 cost of doing this approach is zero. So if we 741 00:43:40.230 --> 00:43:44.389 tokenize more of these baseline assets, allow for more options 742 00:43:44.429 --> 00:43:48.079 for these on-chain asset managers to assemble a target portfolio, 743 00:43:48.139 --> 00:43:50.940 you can start to see this coming true. And I 744 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:56.079 think in particular, having an AI agent or agents helping 745 00:43:56.239 --> 00:44:01.010 to manage that over time that you're in control of 746 00:44:01.809 --> 00:44:04.809 and your asset manager is helping you to manage and 747 00:44:04.869 --> 00:44:09.199 curate is definitely something that folks are thinking about. 748 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:11.800 So it's kind of like you have an RIA, a 749 00:44:11.820 --> 00:44:15.260 wealth manager in your pocket. And look, we know about 750 00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:18.659 rotation liquidity from different asset classes. If one asset is 751 00:44:18.699 --> 00:44:22.460 topped out, sell, rotate to the other asset. And it's 752 00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:26.420 doing that real time and giving you a summary every hour, 753

00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:29.380 if you want, or every five minutes, right? Yeah, it's exactly. 754 00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:32.260 And so this is where I think that the benefit 755 00:44:32.300 --> 00:44:35.449 of the last 10 or so years of of DeFi 756 00:44:35.489 --> 00:44:38.590 and crypto experimentation, you know, atomic swaps and all these 757 00:44:38.630 --> 00:44:42.909 things that were either toys or speculation or just these 758 00:44:43.010 --> 00:44:48.130 weird esoteric things that people in the trenches were doing. 759 00:44:48.710 --> 00:44:51.829 You can start to use them for traditional asset management. 760 00:44:52.090 --> 00:44:54.369 So Todd, what's on the roadmap that you can share? 761 00:44:54.389 --> 00:44:56.869 What can we expect in the next six months from R3? 762 00:44:57.570 --> 00:45:00.809 So as I mentioned before, I'll be joining the Corda Foundation. Very, 763 00:45:00.849 --> 00:45:05.550 very excited about that. we'll be launching our first Yule Vault. 764 00:45:06.610 --> 00:45:10.409 We have a couple of Yule Vaults closely following behind that. 765 00:45:11.889 --> 00:45:16.690 We are very focused on this not just being an 766 00:45:16.730 --> 00:45:21.510 issuance and forget it type thing. So this is on-chain 767 00:45:22.070 --> 00:45:26.159 RWA-backed Yule Vaults that are integrated into the Solana DeFi ecosystem, 768 00:45:28.099 --> 00:45:32.260 integrated in a way where investors can expect to be 769 00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:36.300 able to loop these positions from day one, post them 770 00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:41.530 as collateral on the different exchanges, and over time to 771 00:45:41.570 --> 00:45:44.349 be able to discover them where they are through fintechs 772 00:45:44.369 --> 00:45:49.849 and neobanks and exchanges and other earned platforms. Because we 773 00:45:49.889 --> 00:45:54.610 think that if we're just allowing institutions to do a 774 00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:57.760 POC to say that they've tokenized something, and we did 775 00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:01.079 that 10 years ago, that's not that exciting. The exciting 776 00:46:01.099 --> 00:46:06.039 part is working with financial institution partners to help design 777 00:46:06.059 --> 00:46:08.139 these products, which we have a couple of really cool 778 00:46:08.199 --> 00:46:14.230 ones that we've co-created effectively with these institutions that have 779 00:46:14.250 --> 00:46:17.429 a profile that's fit for the on-chain investor today. So 780 00:46:18.110 --> 00:46:23.530 attractive yield, attractive liquidity, and something that is as freely 781 00:46:23.570 --> 00:46:29.900 transferable on-chain as possible, integrated to borrow-lend capabilities, having Borland 782 00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.019 liquidity from day one. That's what we're focused on. 783 00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:35.460 That's exciting. Well, I will definitely have to have you 784 00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:37.880 back on, and especially that you're in New York, you're 785 00:46:37.900 --> 00:46:40.860 close to the studio, in a sense, to talk about 786 00:46:40.889 --> 00:46:44.010 these developments as they progress. Real quick, before we hit 787 00:46:44.130 --> 00:46:47.369 wrap-up questions, you're an OG. You've been in this space 788 00:46:47.389 --> 00:46:51.449 for a long time. Are you more optimistic, bullish on 789 00:46:51.590 --> 00:46:53.929 where things are going than you were in the past? 790 00:46:54.860 --> 00:46:59.619 Yes, definitely. I think... Uh, so obviously things, things are, 791 00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:03.519 we're happy now over the last three, four weeks, but 792 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.840 I'd say it's the leaders in this rally that have 793 00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:10.090 gotten me excited. So, you know, leave Bitcoin to the side, 794 00:47:10.110 --> 00:47:12.989 but projects that get people excited are the ones that 795 00:47:13.030 --> 00:47:17.909 have customers and revenue. So I think that's fantastic. Uh, yeah, 796 00:47:18.090 --> 00:47:21.170 I'm very, very positive on where the market is right now. 797 00:47:21.630 --> 00:47:23.750 And in particular, I think that this, like all rallies, 798 00:47:23.829 --> 00:47:27.469 this rally happened in the biggest wall of worry possible 799 00:47:27.489 --> 00:47:28.030 for crypto. 800 00:47:28.570 --> 00:47:31.449 Yeah, as the saying goes, climbing the wall of worry. 801 00:47:31.469 --> 00:47:32.289 Yeah, big time. 802 00:47:32.329 --> 00:47:35.289 Yeah, no clarity act, and then the Fed raised rates, 803 00:47:35.329 --> 00:47:38.030 and the market held up really good. That's a really 804 00:47:38.050 --> 00:47:40.449 good sign. All right, got some wrap-up questions here for you. 805 00:47:40.849 --> 00:47:42.230 Are you an early bird or night owl? 806 00:47:43.469 --> 00:47:46.650 Oh, I'm more of an early bird. Back in my 807 00:47:46.690 --> 00:47:48.030 trading days, I used to have to be on the 808 00:47:48.070 --> 00:47:51.619 desk at like 6 a.m., so not that I've... I've 809 00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:53.980 fallen out of that habit, but definitely more of an 810 00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:55.400 early bird, I'd say. 811 00:47:55.659 --> 00:47:57.059 Do you prefer a window seat or aisle? 812 00:47:57.300 --> 00:47:59.880 I mean, it's got to be window seat. How can 813 00:47:59.900 --> 00:48:02.679 you sleep if you're in the aisle? It's crazy. It's crazy. 814 00:48:02.699 --> 00:48:06.079 People are waking up. Text, email, or call? 815 00:48:06.820 --> 00:48:09.210 If you need me, text. If you want me to remember, 816 00:48:09.269 --> 00:48:10.190 send me an email. 817 00:48:10.829 --> 00:48:13.690 Nice. What's one company outside of crypto you admire? 818 00:48:17.289 --> 00:48:21.030 Oh, Interactive Brokers. Have you ever read the story about them? 819 00:48:21.309 --> 00:48:21.650 Yeah. 820 00:48:22.150 --> 00:48:27.349 So this dude, Thomas Pederphy, he is, I love, I 821 00:48:27.869 --> 00:48:29.469 love traders that build companies.

822 00:48:30.230 --> 00:48:30.429 Yeah. 823 00:48:30.449 --> 00:48:32.530 So he, he was the first one to bring, like, 824 00:48:32.789 --> 00:48:36.010 he had handheld computers on the floor of the, of 825 00:48:36.030 --> 00:48:38.829 the options outcry markets. And then he was the first 826 00:48:39.489 --> 00:48:42.110 guy to figure out how to do automated orders in NASDAQ. 827 00:48:42.130 --> 00:48:44.070 And they got mad at him. They said, you have 828 00:48:44.090 --> 00:48:48.030 to use a keyboard. And so he created a mechanical 829 00:48:48.469 --> 00:48:52.110 finger to enter in orders. to get around the rules, 830 00:48:52.389 --> 00:48:54.110 and he was still cleaning up. And then he turned 831 00:48:54.130 --> 00:48:56.050 that into a platform, an interactive brokerage. 832 00:48:56.070 --> 00:48:56.389 It's great. 833 00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:59.559 It's amazing. I think the dude's like 120 years old, 834 00:48:59.619 --> 00:49:00.579 and he's still running the company. 835 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:03.699 That's incredible. Definitely a forward thinker and a disruptor. Yes. 836 00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:07.519 If you could have dinner with any person, living or dead, 837 00:49:07.579 --> 00:49:08.079 who would it be? 838 00:49:09.559 --> 00:49:11.789 Oh, I'm going to leave family out of it because 839 00:49:11.809 --> 00:49:15.369 they'll start crying. I'd say that. Probably be someone... Oh, 840 00:49:16.690 --> 00:49:19.630 I just read this book on Shackleton. You know, the 841 00:49:19.650 --> 00:49:22.190 guy that... tried to traverse the Antarctica. 842 00:49:23.030 --> 00:49:25.050 Oh, the name sounds familiar, but I don't know. 843 00:49:25.070 --> 00:49:28.800 It's called Endurance. It's crazy. You can sort of speed 844 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:30.820 read the middle because it's a lot about like eating 845 00:49:30.980 --> 00:49:34.900 seal blubber and kind of stuff. But I would love 846 00:49:34.940 --> 00:49:37.539 to have dinner with him. Someone like, someone that has 847 00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.929 seen a lot, but also someone that would be fun 848 00:49:41.610 --> 00:49:43.289 you know i don't need to have a dinner and 849 00:49:43.409 --> 00:49:45.489 like ask people about their business strategies more someone that 850 00:49:45.510 --> 00:49:46.889 has some good stories oh. 851 00:49:46.820 --> 00:49:49.280 Yeah for sure i helped to check out that yeah 852 00:49:49.340 --> 00:49:52.239 it's really cool story yeah uh best advice you've ever gotten. 853 00:49:55.059 --> 00:50:00.380 Uh well so my daughter just graduated college so i've 854 00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:02.000 been giving her this advice that i got when i 855 00:50:02.019 --> 00:50:04.400 was her age and i didn't listen to it which 856 00:50:04.539 --> 00:50:06.619 is i ran into some guy somewhere and he goes 857 00:50:07.010 --> 00:50:09.699 take every business card Or ask for a business card. 858 00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:11.260 This was back in the day when people had business cards. 859 00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:14.590 So relationships drive the world. That was the biggest thing. 860 00:50:15.010 --> 00:50:18.690 I think the only other advice is from a fictional character. 861 00:50:18.730 --> 00:50:23.190 I say this a lot. Breaking Bad. Mike Ehrmantraut, not 862 00:50:23.250 --> 00:50:27.880 Walter White. His mantra is no half measures. So if 863 00:50:27.900 --> 00:50:30.099 you're doing something, you got to go all in. 864 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:33.559 I love Breaking Bad. I think it's the best show ever. 865 00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:36.739 Honestly, I watch that scene every once in a while 866 00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:40.619 just reminding myself. It's a little bit dark, but it's 867 00:50:40.780 --> 00:50:41.239 still useful. 868 00:50:41.500 --> 00:50:44.199 Yeah, Mike is one of my favorite characters. Yeah, it's crazy. 869 00:50:44.219 --> 00:50:46.579 It's crazy. And then, you know, I love what you 870 00:50:46.619 --> 00:50:50.019 said about take every business card. I've personally learned that. 871 00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:53.659 It wasn't so much how much I knew, but also 872 00:50:54.110 --> 00:50:55.849 who I knew was so important. 873 00:50:56.210 --> 00:50:59.130 Yes, and I think, you know, if you think about 874 00:50:59.469 --> 00:51:05.349 the crypto market, everything's still relationship-driven. Everything's, you know, it's still... 875 00:51:05.730 --> 00:51:07.650 who you're connected with on Telegram, who you can trust 876 00:51:07.690 --> 00:51:09.670 in a time of need, who you can call, what 877 00:51:09.710 --> 00:51:10.349 rooms are you in. 878 00:51:10.889 --> 00:51:11.110 Yes. 879 00:51:11.650 --> 00:51:14.909 So it's very, very important. So if you do see 880 00:51:14.969 --> 00:51:17.980 my daughter, tell her that too. Awesome. 881 00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:20.760 Todd, absolute pleasure. And I look forward to having you 882 00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:23.340 back in this room. Yeah, I'd look forward to it. 883 00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:25.639 And supporting R3 where I can. But thank you so much. 884 00:51:25.659 --> 00:51:27.090 Yeah, thanks for the support. Thanks for the chat. 885 00:51:42.090 --> 00:51:44.599 Thank you so much for tuning in. Please hit the 886 00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:47.099 like button. Subscribe if you haven't as yet. If you're 887 00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:50.119 listening on a podcast platform such as Spotify or Apple, 888 00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:53.460 please follow and leave a five-star rating. Thank you so much.