Jonathan Leeman on the Church as Embassy | Faith & Politics #16의 전체 녹취록

than a bondservant, as a beloved brother. Huh. Okay, so now is Paul in that statement? What's going on? He's telling Onesimus to go back. He needs to go back because there is a There is a requirement on him morally, legally, to go back and submit himself to his master Philemon. But at the same time, so there's kingdom of this world realities at play that he's addressing and asking Onesimus to go back to Philemon. At the same time, he's saying to Philemon, there's kingdom of heaven realities, think dual citizenship, kingdom of heaven realities that are primary and shape the nature of your relationship with Onesimus. 00:07:20 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:07:20 Speaker 2: He is a beloved brother, first and foremost. And so, oh yes, okay, so you're still dealing with the kingdom of this world realities and we've got to deal with those, fine. Right. But what's determinative for a Christian like, for a Christian like a master like Philemon is to treat his slave Onesimus, or his bond servant Onesimus, according to the gospel. So yeah, it changes everything. All right. 00:07:46 Speaker 1: Do you, Do you see that as an aspect of what you mean by embassy? And maybe that's a concept we should kind of dig into a little bit. As I've studied some of this, I've been using the term resituate. And so what I see Paul doing often is he's allowing these sort of systems and structures that are already in place, something like bond servant master or what have you, And he's saying, we don't need to change the practice. Or in other words, we don't need to abolish the structure, but we do need to resituate it under the reign of God. And so here's what this looks like. When you talk about the embassy, right, it strikes me that you're doing something a little bit similar, but also similar. sort of framing the church as a whole different kind of community. And so maybe we should talk through what is that embassy language that you're using and what implications might you tease out with that? 00:08:44 Speaker 2: Yeah. So the first thing you said, yes, there is a resituation. 1 Corinthians 7 is another great set of examples of that resituation. Jesus and the temple tax. 00:08:57 Speaker 1: Another great one. 00:08:58 Speaker 2: Should the kings of the earth make their sons Are the sons free from the paying the tax? No, the sons are free. He said, okay, but so you're free, Peter, not to pay the tax because you're a son of the king of heaven. 00:09:11 Speaker 1: Because you're a son. 00:09:12 Speaker 2: So as not to offend them, he says, go ahead and pay the tax. 00:09:15 Speaker 1: Right. 00:09:16 Speaker 2: So the tax is still there. You got to pay it. We're still in this world. But you know what? It's rain is over. It doesn't finally determine you, identify you. You're a son. You're free. You don't got to pay the tax, but go ahead and do it. Same sort of thing going on there. The church is an embassy. What is that? Oh, gosh. I mean, OK, that's the whole that's the whole book. 00:09:35

Speaker 1: That's the whole book. 00:09:36 Speaker 2: I understand. So maybe maybe jump in. 00:09:39 Speaker 1: Let's let's say when we think of an embassy today. 00:09:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. 00:09:45 Speaker 1: We often think of a location in another country that is representing like, let's say I can go to the U.S. embassy in Germany. And as an American citizen, that's functionally U.S. land that I can go to and sort of get assistance as an American citizen. Is that the sense, the basic sense you're using, embassy? 00:10:06 Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Age 19, 20, junior year abroad, Jonathan Lehman, in Brussels, Belgium. Passport expires. Go down to the U.S. embassy in Brussels, Belgium. Right? 00:10:18 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:10:19 Speaker 2: And so you walk up to it, American soldier, American flag. You go inside, people speaking American-sounding English. You hand them your passport. They're like, oh, it's expired. And you're like, yeah, can I get a new one? And they turn off the computer. And in short order, they send you a new passport, right? That embassy didn't make me a citizen. I was a citizen by birth. But it possessed an authority to declare me a citizen, right? To give me the passport. And when you step into this embassy, you sort of alluded to it, James. You said land, but it's like soil. You're stepping onto American soil. 00:10:58 Speaker 1: Yes. 00:10:59 Speaker 2: Let's just start right there. How does that make sense? I'm in Brussels, Belgium. How's that American soil? Soil is nothing. Soil is dirt. It's meaningless until we assign significance to it. This is my soil, right? How does soil... gain significance. Well, an authority has to come in and, as it were, consecrate that soil. This, by the authority of the United States government, this is ours. This is American soil, right? Yep. And then that becomes the United States. Now, the embassies that we're talking about right now represent one kingdom inside of another kingdom across geographic space. So you get in the airplane, you fly over, and here we are in Brussels, Belgium, representing the United States. Okay, what is the local church? When you step into the gathered local church, where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them. What does that mean? Does that mean Jesus is like Matthew 18 and 20? Does that mean he's like floating in the room, a mystical fog? Jesus is here. Can you feel him? Is that what's going on? Well, no. What he's saying is they represent me and my authority. Just in the context of giving the keys of the kingdom, binding on earth what's bound in heaven, loosing on earth what's loosed in heaven. And then for where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them. They represent me. They speak for me. They bear my authority. This is my embassy in this gathering. When we step into that gathering, we are stepping into, get this, the geography of Christ's kingdom. The temporary, proleptic, shadowy geography of Christ's kingdom. 00:12:38

Speaker 1: Yep. 00:12:39 Speaker 2: It shows up for once a week for... hour and a half, two hours, however long your church gathers. You know, so, you know, we understand Israel is a land with actual space, and then Jesus gives the great commission where his disciples go into all nations making disciples, and so there is no land in our present kingdom. That's true, but there's a sense in which when we gather together, we become the temporary proleptic geography of Christ's kingdom to declare the king's law, the king's mandates, the king's judgments. We are the people of the king as we as we baptize one another into his name, as we take the supper and affirm one another in his name and so forth. That is where embassies of heaven show up on planet Earth. Amazing, right? So, you know, do you remember that you watched Tom and Jerry as a kid? Oh, yeah. 00:13:35 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:13:35 Speaker 2: Did you ever see those episodes where like Tom dies and he goes up an escalator? 00:13:40 Speaker 1: Yeah. The translucent cat. Yes. 00:13:43 Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, what we get in Matthew's gospel is we get the kingdom of heaven, not going up the escalator, but coming down. All right. So Jesus comes down. The kingdom of God is among you. The kingdom of heaven, the rule of heaven is in Christ. It's embodied, personified in Christ. Anybody else? Well, anybody united to Christ? So that when he says, whatever you bind on earth will be bound on heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed on heaven. What you're getting at that moment is kind of a merger, an access point between heaven and earth. You have this embassy of heaven coming down. And that should change how you think about your gathered local church. This is not something you can do on the internet. This is not something you can do as you're listening to your favorite podcast preacher. Right. This is something we do every week as we gather together. We represent– you know. God did not choose Harvard University Philosophy Department, United Nations, Supreme Court to represent him on planet Earth. He chose Brother Bob, Sister Sue, Deacon Darnell down at Bumble Stew Baptist to represent him on planet Earth through these embassies of heaven. 00:15:02 Speaker 1: So– When you think about it geographically and you're entering into that local church body, that's a constrained presence, right? It's got four walls, maybe some more, but it's a locked place. How does the embassy analogy extend beyond those walls as the people of the church, the members of that body actually go out into the public space? 00:15:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. I do think that something special happens in the gathering. I think it's in the gathering that the authority of the church is exercised. 00:15:40 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:15:42 Speaker 2: I think we bind and loose in the gathering. So I'm going to answer your question, but you've got to let me say a little bit more about the gathering before I get. 00:15:51 Speaker 1: To the scattering. No, that's perfect. Yeah. 00:15:53 Speaker 2: Is that all right? So let's think about authority for a second. And I think evangelical struggle, even Protestants today generally struggle with that idea. What is church authority? We understand biblical authority, right? We On the whole, as Protestants and evangelicals, we get biblical authority. It's supreme. It's legislative. It's what God says. It binds us. We get that. We disagree on what it means, but we understand it binds us. Right. Okay, what have Protestants meant historically when we talk about church authority? What exactly is church authority? Well, I think we've got to look at the keys of the kingdom, as we've talked about. And what I think it is, is it's a— The keys of the kingdom give us authority to declare the who and the what of the gospel. The who and the what of the gospel. What's the true confession? Who do people say that I am? Some say Moses. Some say John the Baptist. Others lie. You're the Christ. That's right. Father in heaven told you that. This is Matthew 16, right? And you're Peter and I'll rock and build my church. Gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Whatever you bind on earth will be in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed on earth. And there it's singular. Whatever you, Peter. Okay, so. It's the what of the gospel. What's a true confession of who Jesus is? And then it's the who of the gospel, Matthew 18, right? In this church discipline scenario. And so the church authority is all about affirming, making formal declarations on the who and the what of the gospel, confessions and confessors. And whether you're Anglican, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, you can agree with what I'm saying. Now, we disagree a little bit on who holds the keys. Is it the bishop? Is it the Presbytery? Is it the Congregationalist? Fine, we can leave that for another day. But we all agree on the basic of what the authority is. It's this formal declaration. That's the gospel. That's right. And that's a believer. That's right. And that's an authority we exercise when we gather together. So, you know, let me put it this way, James. Let's suppose you say to your next-door neighbor on Tuesday afternoon, here's what the gospel is. Jesus died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins, right? Does that phrase that you just said on Tuesday afternoon to your next-door neighbor, Jesus died on the cross, rose again for the forgiveness of sins, does that come bearing biblical authority? Yeah. Yes, right. Yeah, that bears– but now let's suppose you step into your pulpit on Sunday morning and you say the exact same words. Jesus died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins. Does it bear biblical authority? Yes. Okay. But I would say it also bears an additional– layer of authority in that moment. It bears an ecclesial authority, a church authority. 00:18:27 Speaker 1: Okay. 00:18:27 Speaker 2: What, what, what exactly is that? Well, that is the, when you say it in

the congregation, the context of your congregation, and everybody nods their heads, all the members nod their heads and say, yes, that, that's right. We believe that. That's, that's our gospel. You are bound together around that gospel. It is a public binding, affirming, hey, I, city of, you know, Washington, D.C., where I am right now, hear ye, hear ye. We citizens of Capitol Hill Baptist Church agree that this is our gospel to gather. And that's the nature of a... And we are all baptized members of it. So that when we gather in Christ's name, he's here with us, and we're speaking for him. So.... 00:19:20 Speaker 1: Before you go forward, let me just ask a couple of follow-ups there. So when you say our gospel, I want to make sure people aren't hearing you say, which I know you're not saying, it's our gospel and not your gospel, right? Our gospel is the gospel has a claim on us. It's the one that has a claim on us, sort of that idea. And so it's not our Baptist gospel, our Presbyterian gospel. It is the gospel message that we are owned by and that we are proclaiming. that kind of idea. 00:19:51 Speaker 2: Well, and we understand that we have authority to declare. 00:19:53 Speaker 1: And we have, yeah, we have authority to declare. And that authority then, would you say that it needs to be the church's authority to a large extent, maybe not to the full extent, but to a large extent comes from through the alignment of church teaching with biblical authority so that it is a delegated authority that's given to the church and that needs to be, um, aligned in. 00:20:23 Speaker 2: Order to be legitimate. I use a slightly different term than delegate. I use the word deputized, but, but yeah, but exactly what you're saying. Uh, a delegated authority is that I find in the book is, is any, um, Authority, I give a person to fulfill a particular function, right? So the president assigns the secretary of state the ability to govern the department of state, right? Whereas deputized authority, I'm not giving you a function. I'm actually giving you a role to be a substitute for me, the kind of authority that a pastor would give– I'm sorry, a president would give to an ambassador. So Mr. Ambassador, you can go sign to treaties– In my name. I'm not just giving you a function. I'm actually giving you a face. You're wearing my mask as the president to go sign that tree or power of attorney. You can go sign checks on my name. That's the authority the church possesses to actually speak in Christ's name. That's astonishing. So every authority on earth, parent, government, has a delegated authority. But what's amazing about the nation of Israel, the authority they have who wear God's name, and the authority of our local congregations, where two or three are gathered in my name and baptized in my name and they gather in my name and go out for the sake of the name. They possess what I'm calling this deputized, ambassador-like authority to make declarations on behalf of God. That's the authority we're given with the keys of the kingdom. Binding and loosing on earth was bound and loosed in heaven. Gotcha. Okay, so we affirm that. Now, back to your question a minute ago, a few minutes ago. Okay, that's what happens when we gather. What happens when we scatter? Will we go out? You might say kind of like ambassadors. Sort of like Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, right? It's about ambassadors for Christ declaring a message of reconciliation. So we come to the gathering, we're affirmed in one another, we're affirmed in the gospel, and then we're trained and equipped and built up, and then we're sent out. And that is, I don't do this in political church, but another book I wrote called How the Nations Rage, I talk about the way that that is a political threat. For the church to send out its gospel message is a kind of political threat to the nations. Not the threat of an invader. It's the threat of a virus or termites, something that goes in and chews away at the idol holding up the foundation of a regime or a marketplace as people's minds and hearts are changed until that regime collapses, right? So the Chinese Communist Party is wrong to be threatened by local churches and their pastors thinking that we're going to somehow overtake China. But in a way, they're right to recognize that the gospel of a crucified and resurrected Christ will ultimately undermine their regime, not by direct action, but by indirect action in changing the hearts of the people. 00:23:29 Speaker 1: Do you see that? So part of what I've thought through when I think about Governing entities like the United States government or the People's Republic of China or what have you. Part of the challenge there is that the church has to recognize where the authority that these governments have been given starts and stops. And so, but what ends up happening most of the time with these government, I would say all the time with these governments, no need to square code it. They go beyond the authority that they've been given and they refuse to acknowledge that. where they've been given the authority from. And so the church is in part a threat because what it's saying is you're not what you think you are. 00:24:11 Speaker 2: Well said. 00:24:12 Speaker 1: And you're not as authoritative as you are. Your authority derives from something you're not acknowledging. And so in that is part of the threat, at least. 00:24:23 Speaker 2: Yeah. Carl F.H. Henry said the church's job with respect to the state is to declare the standards by which the nations and their kings will be judged. Yeah. Declare the standards by which the nation and its kings will be judged. Think of Herod saying, it's not right. I'm sorry. John the Baptist saying to Herod, it's not right for you to have your brother's wife, right? 00:24:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:24:47 Speaker 2: Or Jonah and Nineveh and the king of Nineveh. Or Daniel to Nebuchadnezzar. Jonah. I mean, Joseph, right? So we

declare the standards by which the nations will be judged. And part of that is telling the nations its limits. You have no jurisdiction here. No, you may not do that. And insofar as there's something post-fall natively idolatrous to the human heart, so there is something natively idolatrous to the ambitions of kings and princes and governors. There is a latent trajectory towards beastliness in government. Yeah. Because I think there's a latent trajectory towards idolatry in the heart of man. So God will sometimes constrain that idolatrous trajectory in individuals and that beastly trajectory in governments. He constrains it by common grace, and sometimes he constrains it by special grace. But there is that trajectory. 00:25:59 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:26:00 Speaker 2: There is an empire of like trajectory that you see throughout the old Testament. 00:26:05 Speaker 1: Yes. 00:26:07 Speaker 2: Um, and Samuel warns that you're sure you want a King. He's going to take all your wives. He's going to take all your horses and field. I'm not sure you want this. Right. So it's, and then we can talk about revelation, James and the beast and what that really means. 00:26:25 Speaker 1: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I think, As you're describing this, what comes to mind is that the nations are, we have an odd relationship with the nations. Because on the one hand, we accept their authority as an authority given them by God. 00:26:43 Speaker 2: Romans 13. Right. 00:26:46 Speaker 1: But on the whole other side of it, we sit back and say, but we also know that these aren't lasting. They're not as stable as we'd like them to be. And as ordered as they might appear. they're always bending away from God's will. It's inevitable. I think back on Genesis 15, 16, not Genesis 15, 6, but Genesis 15, 16, where God tells Abraham that he's going to bring his people or he's going to give the Israelites the land after 400 years because the sin of the Amorites is not yet complete. 00:27:20 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:27:21 Speaker 1: And you sort of think about what that implies. It's that the sin just keeps building up, building up. 00:27:26 Speaker 2: There's a trajectory. 00:27:27 Speaker 1: And God is going to forbear it for a while, but not forever. And so you see these things sort of bending away. And so there's an interesting way in which we are confronting the nations in almost a battlefield sort of metaphor there. 00:27:48 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. 00:27:52 Speaker 1: Well, let's dive into Revelation a little bit. That'd be kind of fun. 00:27:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if I'm ready. I'm not prepared to do that. 00:28:00 Speaker 1: No, I did have a couple more questions on. So you talk, I think, in the book about the Bible as constitution, not as case law. This sort of idea that the Bible has this different function for us. 00:28:17 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:28:18 Speaker 1: So help us understand that a little bit, because I thought that was a really helpful and powerful analogy. 00:28:24 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, what is a constitution? It doesn't give you tax law. It gives you the structures and the institutions that make your tax law, right? Yeah. It's rules for making the rules. And the government does— I' m sorry, the Bible doesn't prescribe a particular form of government for us. I think it has certain trajectories. I think it has certain innuendos. We can talk about that, but it doesn't prescribe formally a certain form of government or a particular set of laws. Yeah. we get no questions about Old Testament and New Testament and old, you know, natural law. But let's just, let me just put that on the shelf for now and just say it doesn't prescribe our, it doesn't even prescribe our murder code. You know, I was recently on a Maryland jury on a murder trial and in the Maryland jury murder trial, you know, it was, it's common, it's common law and degrees of murder and ways of classifying degrees of murder and first-degree murder being premeditated, requires a premeditated form of indictment. Whereas if we were in Germany and I was on a murder jury trial it's not common law. There's not degrees of murder. There's no talk of premeditation. Instead, it's killing with certain extenuating circumstances. So the way– the law against murder in Germany– is different is institutionalized is different than the way the law against mercy in Maryland. My, my, my jurisdiction is, is institutionalized, right? Okay. So back to the Bible, the Bible is not law, uh, civic law. It doesn't provide a civil law, right? Rather what it gives is, is it gives us rules for making the rules. So it says, do not murder. Yeah. Old Testament, new Testament. We can all agree on that. Do not say we can all agree on that. Um, And I'm saying it says that, as it were, at a constitutional level. And then it's up to us in our time and place to figure out how to build our government, institutions of government, and civil law accordingly. Now, obviously, this requires a much longer conversation about Israel and its precedent for us. And I don't know if you want to get into all that right now. But hopefully everything I've said so far is generic enough that we can all agree on that. 00:30:49 Speaker 1: Well, I think what an interesting example might be is Paul's use of the law from the Old Testament regarding the prohibition against muzzling oxen while they're treading grain. And you see him take that, which is a very case law, you know, generically from a genre perspective. I mean, in the Old Testament, it is case law. You weren't supposed to muzzle your oxen when it's treading grain. What he does is he pulls that across in the New Testament and says, you know, God doesn't care about oxen, does he? He cares about us. 00:31:19 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:31:21 Speaker 1: And so now you have this sort of other underlying dynamic that we're supposed to pay attention to that the law instantiates.

00:31:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. 00:31:30 Speaker 1: But that the law isn't it. But the law is not confining. I can't throw that passage out, which I find interesting. So I don't know an oxen. So, you know, I could easily say, well, that law doesn't apply to me. But what Paul does is, no, it's still very informative for you. You just have to understand it correctly. 00:31:49 Speaker 2: No, that's exactly right. God's moral law is eternal. I don't know if any Christian is going to agree on that much. And that eternal moral law will be institutionalized at different times, in different places, in different ways. So in the Garden of Eden, God's eternal moral law was institutionalized through don't eat from that tree. You can eat from any other trees. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But then, you know, hop, skip and a jump. We're no longer in our garden. It's no longer institutionalized in that way anymore. You know, don't eat from that tree. It no longer binds us. Yeah. You know, so then you move into kind of the area of the patriarchs and you move into the time of Moses and the time of exile. Then you move into the new Testament age of the church. God's eternal moral law is always binding on us, but he institutionalizes at different times in different ways and different administrations. And so we need to pay close attention to where we're reading and what covenantal moment we live within to know how exactly we are to apply his law. So, you know, there's that famous quote that young preachers and bloggers love about Kuyper. Jesus rules over every square inch. You know, there's no inch of creation, which he's not saying mine. True. Wonderful. Very beautiful phrase. True. Right. The challenge is Jesus doesn't rule over every square inch in the same way. Right. Sometimes through a parent, sometimes through a pastor, sometimes through a prince, sometimes through, you know, nothing at all. And so we got to pay closer attention to the end of an institutional covenantal and institutional structures. He, he, He assigns to different moments of redemptive history in order to ascertain, okay, exactly how does Jesus rule over this particular square inch? Yes. So. 00:34:01 Speaker 1: It's interesting. So I'll kind of preface this question with, I've been doing some work on biblical manhood and part of what I'm coming to is that we shouldn't start with the notion of biblical manhood. We should allow our understanding of what it means to be a Christian man emerge from discipleship. That at the end of the day, discipleship is what shapes us into male disciples. And that could mean something different in one age than it could in another. I'm wondering if you see sort of a parallel for this with actual political participation. And so what I mean by that, just to make sure we distinguish our terms, the church is this political entity that we talked about earlier. Now you've got individual Christians or groups of Christians going out and they're doing things like voting or serving on a city council or, um, you know, maybe they're senators or what have you. How do you see the role of the church sort of sending these people into those sorts of vocations? Um, As opposed to, you know, us coming up with some sort of set of ethics that is relatively devoid of any theology. 00:35:13 Speaker 2: I don't understand the last part of that question. A set of ethics that's devoid of theology? 00:35:20 Speaker 1: What do you mean? So if we were just to say, like, look, here's your checklist, you know, don't vote for this, vote for this, support these causes, don't support these causes. That to me seems like that's a checklist sort of approach to this. And it seems to me that part of what you're arguing in the book is that the church is the authoritative and really formative entity of a people apart, but that these people are ultimately going to go out into the world and they're going to engage in certain of these activities. And so I guess maybe the heart of the question is, how do you see that dynamic really working? How do you see Christian political participation fitting with a political church. 00:36:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. Okay, so we gather together to hear the king's law, the king's edicts, the king's demands on our life, to hear about our new identity in the king. You're all sons of the king now. And that creates a set of obligations to him and a set of obligations to your neighbor, loving him and loving your neighbor. And so as we gather together, Sunday after Sunday, we're going to teach you everything Jesus commands. Going all nations, making a silent teaching, everything I command. So we're going to teach you everything he commands. And that's going to mean different things for you in different areas of life. So everything he commands is going to mean one set of things for you as a dad, another set of things for you as a husband, another for you as a wife, mother, another set of things for you as a worker, another set of things for you as a citizen. Now, sometimes the things that Jesus commands are going to bear direct, immediate applications. on you as a dad or you as a citizen or you as a voter. Yeah. Sometimes it's going to be much more indirect and it's, it's kind of, it's, it's not binding. It's, it's kind of over to wisdom and you're going to have to make your own judgment calls. Gotcha. You know, so let's, let's suppose you're a plumber. Okay. What Jesus commands means as a plumber, you got to be honest with your, you know, your, your contracts and your, what you charge, you got to be fair and you got to be just and, you got to do a good job and you got to work hard because the thing is Jesus commands would, would, would require you of those things. But now does Jesus command you to wear, to use copper pipes versus, uh, uh, fiberglass or whatever? What's the alternative to copper? 00:37:46 Speaker 1: Well, like let's say when they used to use lead pipes, right? 00:37:50 Speaker 2: You know, like, well, no,

I'm going to leave using copper versus lead pipes or whatever those white plastic ones are that I see it at home Depot. Um, I'm going to leave that to your judgment, but based on the biblical wisdom that we've built up in you, and you might think, actually, I'm going to get more from my employees by using this kind versus that kind. These are safer. So, yeah, but you have to work that out. Okay, same thing in the political space. So does Jesus prescribe a certain tax rate, you know, 20% versus– 30% or progressive versus flat tax. Well, no, he doesn't. The Bible doesn't go there, but it does bring a number of principles to bear that if you're the person responsible for tax rates or voting on people who set tax rates, that you would bring to bear, right? Principles of justice and righteousness and balanced scales and measures and so forth and not showing partiality to the The poor or partiality to the rich, you know, taking from Exodus 21 and 24. So part of what a church's job to do is to equip the saints for that work out there, whatever endeavors they're undertaking. And, yeah. Am I answering your question? You are. 00:39:24 Speaker 1: And I think it's a hard answer, but I think it's probably more right than most of the answers. I hear. So it's like you have this sort of sea of complexity that you're walking into that is the world. And you realize that it's sort of like a baby's mobile. Any corner you touch is going to move that baby's mobile in ways that you didn't anticipate. And so what we're doing as we're wading into the political environment is we're looking at this sort of complex mess of things. And we're saying, I need to be focused on loving God and loving neighbor. And so my actions need to be guided in this mess by those sort of commitments and convictions. And yet, I also realized that all of these decisions are very provisional and that anywhere I touch this, something else is going to move. And so there's a care that you have to take, but a realism you need to approach it with because this probably isn't something we're going to fix. It's sort of a patchwork almost, it feels like to me oftentimes when we look at the political realm. But this notion of the wisdom and the guidance to really make those more sober decisions and a reasoned and appropriate conscience based. Right. Sort of political decision seems to be if I'm summarizing it correctly, seems to be what you're you're suggesting there. 00:40:51 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. That's all right. Let me let me give you three things. OK, I'll try to do this somewhat briefly. Number one. you said something that we're not going to fix this. There is an extent to which, yes, all politics, right. Sisyphean, you know, Sisyphus, he kind of tried to roll up, bark, rock up the hill. You might have the best constitution in the world and you know, it has the best laws, best candidate. You know, it's, it's, it's the rocks going to roll. So yeah, there is a futility. Read Ecclesiastes. There's a futility to do it all. We just need to remember that. Okay. Okay. Number one, number, number two, um, wisdom in the Bible plays a huge role in politics. So Proverbs 8, verses 15 and 16, wisdom, personified wisdom speaks and says, by me, princes reign and rulers govern. All right? Yes. So wisdom is what's needed to— and wisdom is significant because it means it's not prescribed. Right. There is some uncertainty. So— One other text there, 1 Kings 3, 28, after the episode with the two prostitutes, you know, both saying, my baby, no, my baby. And Solomon's like, I know, bring me a sword. We'll cut it in half. And the real mom's like, no, no, no, she can have it. And chapter 3, verse 28 says, in responding to that whole thing, and the people were amazed that God had given wisdom to Solomon to do justice. You want the political philosophy of the Bible in a single verse? There it is. The wisdom from God. to do justice. So when you go out into the political space, friends, that's what you want. You want wisdom from God to do justice. And wisdom is not prescribed. There's no, there's no verse in the Bible that says when you're confronted by two prostitutes, both claiming a baby is hers, then do this. That's not there. 00:42:43 Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. 00:42:43 Speaker 2: That's, that's just like, ah, I need, I need, I need, I need wisdom. I need skill. God, give me skill. Give me wisdom to no do with this, this, these two candidates too. I don't like either of these candidates. What do I do? Well, then this, this proposition, what do I do? Give me wisdom to do justice, right? Okay, so that's number two. Number three, Christians need, churches need two buckets. You need a whole church bucket and a Christian freedom bucket. Let me put it this way. There are two kinds of issues. Straight line issues, jagged line issues. Straight line issues are those issues where there's a straight line between the biblical text and a political requirement on a Christian. You shall not murder, biblical text. Pretty straight line, I think, to saying abortion is wrong and murder. And therefore, I think it's what you would call a whole church issue. So if you are an abortion doctor, our church will remove you as an act of discipline from membership. That's a straight line. Yep. Separate but equal, you know, Ku Klux Klan sort of Jim Crow laws, pretty straight line. All men are created equal. And to institutionalize that sort of discrimination is just clear. That's conscious. It's a whole church issue. It's a straight line. Most political issues, however, are not straight line issues. Most political issues are what I would call or what folks have called jagged line issues. Now, you might have certain biblical principles that you want to bring to bear. But there's not a straight line. It's a jagged line between the Bible and the policy application. So universal health care, immigration law. 00:44:34 Speaker 1: Right. 00:44:34 Speaker 2: Again, tax rates.

Yep. 00:44:36 Speaker 1: Foreign policy. A lot of fluctuation. 00:44:38 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's just like, okay, well, I think all people are created equal. That's true. Does that mean I think we should have universal health care? Well, to get down to universal health care, it means certain technologies. judgments i have to make on quality of care and standards of care and certain tax requirements that come along with it and these are all different issues that christians seem to be able to disagree on it's like i don't know that as i as a pastor can come along and say you must take this position on you know it's just there's a jagged line between the bible and our policy application these are what i would call christian freedom issues jagged line christian freedom issues most of politics is over there there's a few issues And a lot of culture wars over which is which. But there's a few issues that are straight line whole church matters. And the problem is part of the challenges we have as churches is treating a lot of these jagged line Christian freedom issues as straight line whole church issues. And that just causes all kinds of– I don't want to take either bucket out of your hands. I don't want to say, hey, pastor, it's all relative. That's not good. There are certain things that are absolute. There are certain things that are straight line. And a pastor needs to be able to preach those things. 00:45:48 Speaker 1: Just need to make sure that you've got them in the right bucket. Like that's part of the discerning work of what you do as a pastor. 00:45:54 Speaker 2: Back to the wisdom. And that's hard. And you know what? Sometimes your brothers and sisters in Christ are going to disagree with you about what's a straight line and what's a jagged line issue. And just show charity, you know, let's be patient and forbear with one another. 00:46:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's helpful. We're coming up on the end of the interview here, so I want to ask you just one last question and then we'll close it out. But as you think about the political church, just give Christians who are moving toward a political season here again with midterms and those kind of things, what advice would you give to Christians to be the political church in what has become an extremely polarized sort of political environment for the United States? 00:46:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, right. Great. Um, kind of one of the main messages, both of, of, of political church, that book, and then my followup on how the nations rage is that it's more important brother and sister in Christ for you to, uh, be a city on a hill and, uh, a healthy congregation than it is for you to, uh, Let me start over. Politics begins in our life together as a congregation. Don't be somebody out on the parenting lecture circuit if you're neglecting your kids at home. Don't tell me that you care about abortion if you're not helping the unwed mom in your church. Don't tell me you care about welfare and tax rates if you're not caring for the physical needs of other poor members of your church, right? If you care about politics, you're going to start by embodying that in the life of the congregation. The city on the hill, contrary to everybody from JFK to Ronald Reagan to Obama, is not America. The city on the hill is, drumroll, our churches. Or I love this line from Lincoln's second inaugural address. If you come to D.C. and you walk up the steps into the Lincoln Memorial and you look to the right and you see inscribed in marble on the wall the beautiful, wonderful second inaugural address, and some of the final words in that are something about, fervently do we pray to achieve and cherish life. a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. What a beautiful phrase. Achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace with ourselves and with all nations. Good question. Where will we first achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace with ourselves and with all nations? Is it not among those who go into all nations, making disciples and baptized? Is it not there where we will first... Beat our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks. Is it not in the congregation of believers where we first learn to love our enemy? You know, these people who drive me crazy and gossip about me and don't show up to nursery on time when they say they will. and they're so annoying and how could that elder say that dumb thing? Okay, that guy right there. Can you love and forgive him right there? Because if you can't do that, forget America. Forget your nation if you can't even do it with your fellow church members. Okay, so heading into the midterms, I would say the same thing. I would say 365 days a year in the four-year cycle. It starts in your church. And it's only as we learn to live as a transformed city and as a new culture that we can then commend what it means to be a transformed city and new culture out there. Yeah. So that when we go out there into the public square, we don't go primarily to dominate, nor do we go and withdraw. Rather, we go to represent. We go to represent the kingdom of heaven. That's our job. Our job is to be ambassadors. So, you know, any Christians, listen, I want you to engage politically, but I want you to go and engage politically as ambassadors for the king. Yeah. And calculating all of your decisions and votes and actions and participations, letting your heavenly citizenship shape and determine what you do with your earthly citizenship. 00:50:55 Speaker 1: Yeah, really helpful. Great distinctions. Great book. Thanks so much for being on, Jonathan. Really appreciate you. Appreciate your work. And I think that because Political Church is an IVP title, we get a 20% discount from IVP. So you can find the link to the book on the IVP Press website. If you order it off there and use the discount code, you'll get 20% off. I'll put a few other links to Jonathan's work in the show notes. You can find him as well as a link to the Nine Marks page where you can see his whole collection of books, I assume, or many of them there. And so check out more of his work. Jonathan, again, thanks for being here. This was a really great conversation. 00:51:41 Speaker 2: James, thanks for the questions and spurring us all on to think about helpful things. 00:51:48 Speaker 1: Absolutely. All right, everybody. Well, thanks for being here for this episode of Thinking Christian. We'll catch you next time. Take care.