Between Structure and Collapse | TLC & Developmental Theory의 전체 녹취록

the word cosmic 00:03:33.519 --> 00:03:37.190 naval a lot in my life, but I've never 00:03:37.200 --> 00:03:39.750 come out in public 00:03:39.760 --> 00:03:41.830 >> and used it. And you kind of gave me 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:43.430 permission with your hyper 00:03:43.440 --> 00:03:47.030 encouragement, which I appreciate about 00:03:47.040 --> 00:03:47.670 you. 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:49.190 >> Oh, wow. 00:03:49.200 --> 00:03:51.430 Um, 00:03:51.440 --> 00:03:53.589 that's interesting 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:57.270 how these things work, how like um 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.550 influence, meme, 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:02.229 you know, all that kind of stuff and 00:04:02.239 --> 00:04:04.390 creativity 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.270 uh how that all kind of 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:09.429 I don't know and things hit and things 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.869 stick or they don't. And uh it's funny 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:15.509 because people just started calling me 00:04:15.519 --> 00:04:17.749 Sebacks, you know, because it's easier 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:19.749 to say than Christian Baxter. I've got 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:21.270 an X in my name. Like 00:04:21.280 --> 00:04:22.069 >> Yeah. 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:23.830 >> And my name's It's a It's like it's 00:04:23.840 --> 00:04:25.670 really crunchy name. Like every time 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:27.270 Paul says my full name, he's like 00:04:27.280 --> 00:04:29.749 Christian Baxter. 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:31.909 >> And so most people just say like Cbacks. 00:04:31.919 --> 00:04:33.830 >> Yeah. It uses the full range of your 00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:36.629 mouth and like every sound you can make. 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:37.350 It's 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:40.629 >> Yeah. And uh I dude this was crazy. So 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:42.870 you know I work with the if you're not 00:04:42.880 --> 00:04:44.710 working with chat GBT or you pretend 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:46.390 like you're not but you are you know 00:04:46.400 --> 00:04:50.230 like so we've been using chat GBT and it 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:52.150 um I noticed on the thing on the upper 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:55.189 bar today it said hey Cbacks how are you 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:56.150 doing today? 00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:58.673 >> Oh god. 00:04:58.683 --> 00:05:00.150 [laughter] 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:02.629 >> It picked up on it somehow. you know, 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:04.150 dumping transcripts in there and all 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:07.830 this kind of stuff, but it's like uh 00:05:07.840 --> 00:05:10.629 yeah, it's it's strange what's in a 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:13.990 name. And that was that was uh what PJO 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:16.390 at the conference at the Midwest 00:05:16.400 --> 00:05:18.950 Esquaryy Conference when someone I can't 00:05:18.960 --> 00:05:20.469 remember 00:05:20.479 --> 00:05:21.749 what is this little corner of the 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:23.670 internet and he said, "Well, let's you 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.749 know, look at

the name." 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:27.189 >> And so that you know, we're already kind 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.670 of circling that in our two estuary 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.629 right now. What's the Oh, the name 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:37.189 Cosmic Naval and Influence and and so, 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:41.350 you know, uh there it's funny because I 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:42.790 guess when I first started playing in 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:44.230 the corner, people were saying, "Oh, 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:46.310 look, it's the naval gazing. Uh we're 00:05:46.320 --> 00:05:48.469 talking about it." 00:05:48.479 --> 00:05:51.510 And I think I I said this in the intro, 00:05:51.520 --> 00:05:55.350 but it's um well, you know, appropriate 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:58.710 because your as you've your the name of 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.350 your Friday live stream is like I what 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:03.189 is it the cosmic it's something cosmic? 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:04.390 >> It's the cosmic. Well, it's been 00:06:04.400 --> 00:06:06.070 evolving. Like here's the thing. It 00:06:06.080 --> 00:06:06.950 started out 00:06:06.960 --> 00:06:09.189 >> they're looking like more more dummy. 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:11.590 It's really fun to watch. 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:15.270 >> Yeah. [laughter] Um it's it started out 00:06:15.280 --> 00:06:18.710 as you know live from the Earth Dome 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:21.749 with in the Cosmic Naval and then um 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:24.309 live at the Cosmic Naval and then now 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:26.390 it's [snorts] I've been kind of pitching 00:06:26.400 --> 00:06:30.950 it as cosmic naval gazing with Riel 00:06:30.960 --> 00:06:33.670 because so there's something and this is 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:38.390 how I this is part of my art process is 00:06:38.400 --> 00:06:40.629 I 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:43.670 so I do metal art. Um, I'm a metal 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:44.870 artist. 00:06:44.880 --> 00:06:47.670 >> So, I have a scrap pile in the back of 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:50.550 my yard with just a bunch of stuff that 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:53.749 I've collected from back alleyways. 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:56.950 Anywhere I see junk, I will pull over 00:06:56.960 --> 00:06:58.870 and see if it's metal and throw in the 00:06:58.880 --> 00:07:00.950 back of my truck. And so, I have this 00:07:00.960 --> 00:07:06.870 like little incubator of possible items 00:07:06.880 --> 00:07:10.390 that I could turn into metal art. and 00:07:10.400 --> 00:07:13.990 it's all junk, but something will stand 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:17.029 out as like usable. And then I just pull 00:07:17.039 --> 00:07:19.670 that thread and often times, you know, 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:21.589 something will be bent in such a way and 00:07:21.599 --> 00:07:23.189 then I'll unbend it and I'll be like, 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:26.309 "Oh, this totally works." And I think 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:31.110 like the the term naval gazing, it's 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.350 it has it's a cliche. It has all of this 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:35.350 baggage with it, but there's something 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:37.909 actually, I think, beautiful about it. 00:07:37.919 --> 00:07:39.589 Um, 00:07:39.599 --> 00:07:42.150 and if you just put the word cosmic 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.909 before naval gazing, suddenly it's it's 00:07:45.919 --> 00:07:48.629 takes on new meaning. 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:52.790 >> Well, that's you. I was like totally we 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:53.830 you know you already mentioned like 00:07:53.840 --> 00:07:56.869 doing the rando with you and then you 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:58.309 went on Substack and you wrote this 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:00.765 piece and you said TLCing 00:08:00.775 --> 00:08:01.430 [clears throat] 00:08:01.440 --> 00:08:03.270 >> like and then so there's this like the 00:08:03.280 --> 00:08:06.550 gays and and uh seeing what that's like 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:09.189 and I was like oh man look what I did 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.510 like I that like this like I part I was 00:08:11.520 --> 00:08:14.390 participating in this kind of thing you 00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:16.550 know that was you know that sounds real 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:18.790 bad in my Christian evangel oh look what 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:20.469 I did like 00:08:20.479 --> 00:08:22.070 Oh yeah, you're not supposed to draw 00:08:22.080 --> 00:08:23.990 attention to any possible good thing 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.310 that you've done. 00:08:26.320 --> 00:08:27.110 [clears throat] 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:30.070 >> Uh so I was just with Cadell last and he 00:08:30.080 --> 00:08:32.469 was like I heard Boyce and Lick Land and 00:08:32.479 --> 00:08:33.909 they were talking about total depravity 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:36.230 and I was like oh yeah we could talk 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:40.870 about that. Um but beside the point the 00:08:40.880 --> 00:08:43.909 uh the 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.430 yeah this what so you've come in you 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:49.509 were like Christian baptized me into the 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:51.750 TLC you using this religious language 00:08:51.760 --> 00:08:53.750 and then and you were doing 00:08:53.760 --> 00:08:55.350 participating in live streams and you've 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:57.190 got your own kind of like developmental 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:59.350 philosophy culture building work but 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:00.870 then you were like I also want to play 00:09:00.880 --> 00:09:03.430 in this sandbox and so you started doing 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:05.910 weekly live streams funny enough at the 00:09:05.920 --> 00:09:07.350 same time as Paul Vanderlay, which is 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:08.790 like probably the worst time anyone 00:09:08.800 --> 00:09:10.550 could like try to do a TLC live show. 00:09:10.560 --> 00:09:11.430 >> Oh, yeah. 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:13.269 >> But it's kind of working and and you've 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:14.710 got kind of the orthodox thing,

you 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:16.470 know, the orthodox corner thing, too. 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.870 So, you know, um Yeah. So, how's it 00:09:20.880 --> 00:09:22.550 going? What What are you What are you 00:09:22.560 --> 00:09:26.630 thinking, learning, feeling? 00:09:26.640 --> 00:09:28.870 >> It's going well. I think it's it's 00:09:28.880 --> 00:09:30.870 started to 00:09:30.880 --> 00:09:32.550 feels like it's started to pop a little 00:09:32.560 --> 00:09:35.741 bit more just in the last few. The first 00:09:35.751 --> 00:09:37.190 [clears throat] I think I started my 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.350 first one end of January, early 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:42.389 February, something like that. And I 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:46.710 think Sherry came on with me and I don't 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:48.389 know if I would have kept going if it 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:50.550 wasn't for her coming on cuz she's been 00:09:50.560 --> 00:09:52.949 on there almost every single week with 00:09:52.959 --> 00:09:58.870 me. And it's been really lovely because 00:09:58.880 --> 00:10:02.630 I I I don't I can't monologue like a lot 00:10:02.640 --> 00:10:04.550 of y'all. 00:10:04.560 --> 00:10:07.430 Um, I need someone to chat with and kind 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:09.910 of bounce ideas off of and finish my 00:10:09.920 --> 00:10:13.110 sentences when I've lost my way. 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:15.697 And Sherry's great at that. Uh, 00:10:15.707 --> 00:10:16.470 [clears throat] 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:21.910 and um, and I I mean, part of it is 00:10:21.920 --> 00:10:25.829 I I think maybe Well, you'd have to ask 00:10:25.839 --> 00:10:28.310 her what why she was drawn to my 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:30.069 channel. I I wanted to create a space 00:10:30.079 --> 00:10:33.990 that was 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.509 someone like me who is a non-expert 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:42.710 could play and who is also interested in 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:44.790 creativity and things that aren't quite 00:10:44.800 --> 00:10:47.110 as thinkyalkie. I mean, we get into 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:48.870 thinkyalkie plenty, but I wanted to 00:10:48.880 --> 00:10:50.790 create a space where people could share 00:10:50.800 --> 00:10:54.630 something they made and talk about it 00:10:54.640 --> 00:10:57.910 and and and maybe that's and then that 00:10:57.920 --> 00:11:01.110 leads to the theological philosophical 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:05.430 discussion, but when it's grounded in 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:08.069 something you've made, it it gets 00:11:08.079 --> 00:11:11.829 personal and it's less like abstract. 00:11:11.839 --> 00:11:13.990 >> That was a long time ago. There was a 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.269 conversation in these here parts that uh 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:19.990 was about show and tell. Um you know I 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.630 would hear Chad talk about it [snorts] 00:11:22.640 --> 00:11:25.670 >> that was with ideas. 00:11:25.680 --> 00:11:28.550 So, and then people might steal your

00:11:28.560 --> 00:11:30.389 idea that you did show and tell with. 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:32.550 And it wasn't like an it wasn't an 00:11:32.560 --> 00:11:34.069 explicit show and tell, but that's kind 00:11:34.079 --> 00:11:35.910 of like what takes place. Like, oh, I've 00:11:35.920 --> 00:11:38.630 got this cool idea mimemetic thing that 00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:40.870 I saw and then it's and that's the 00:11:40.880 --> 00:11:43.670 thinkytalkie version of that. But like 00:11:43.680 --> 00:11:45.269 what you did, and I remember watching 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.389 some of your very first ones. Uh you're 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:49.990 like, "Hey, I'm gonna do like just I'm 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:51.670 gonna put my hands on the piano and just 00:11:51.680 --> 00:11:53.670 kind of see where they go." And you know 00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:56.069 that took some kind of technical 00:11:56.079 --> 00:11:58.790 getting the inputs and the outputs to 00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:00.230 work just right to get you know 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:01.190 >> oh god 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:02.710 >> and all that kind of stuff. 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.750 >> Uh and you know that and you're in kind 00:12:05.760 --> 00:12:07.350 of a studio space and you've done a lot 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.269 of you know audio recording through the 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:12.629 years as a musician and so that helped 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:15.350 create you know build make that work in 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.310 a way. Um but people sharing stories and 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.030 poems or uh a book something they were 00:12:21.040 --> 00:12:24.629 you know uh embodying that is a is a 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:26.230 good thing a powerful thing like you 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:27.910 said taking it out of the abstract and 00:12:27.920 --> 00:12:29.990 in the process building something you 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:30.949 know cultivating [clears throat] 00:12:30.959 --> 00:12:31.829 something. 00:12:31.839 --> 00:12:33.509 >> Um 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:35.910 >> yeah the 00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:37.990 putting the head down my head down and 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.750 just playing whatever comes to me. It's 00:12:41.760 --> 00:12:43.829 kind of absurd to do that as a 00:12:43.839 --> 00:12:45.670 performance, but I've always wanted to 00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:47.829 do it because it's it's kind of a 00:12:47.839 --> 00:12:49.829 meditative practice for me that 00:12:49.839 --> 00:12:52.069 >> I can get lost. I mean, I can I set a 00:12:52.079 --> 00:12:55.030 fivem minute timer for people because 00:12:55.040 --> 00:12:57.990 it's to spare them from me just getting 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.509 lost in melancholy interpretive 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:02.550 >> cosmic naval. 00:13:02.560 --> 00:13:04.230 >> In the cosmic Yeah. Get lost in the 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:06.230 cosmic naval. Time kind of keeps things 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.069 going. 00:13:08.079 --> 00:13:13.910 But it also I mean I am orthodox and 00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:18.710 part of what 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:20.629 you can hear sirens even in the cosmic 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:26.310 manifold. Uh part of part of what I 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:28.949 like to do is create kind of liturgy 00:13:28.959 --> 00:13:31.509 wherever I am [clears throat] in life. 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.030 and 00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:35.750 um starting it off with some sort of 00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:37.910 musical 00:13:37.920 --> 00:13:40.069 thing. Starting it off with something a 00:13:40.079 --> 00:13:43.350 little bit sometimes it's it's very 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.110 palatable. Sometimes I'll actually cover 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:46.230 a song, 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.910 >> but I also I have kind of a preamble 00:13:49.920 --> 00:13:52.389 that talks about what the the cosmic 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:57.269 navl is and it's very poetic. And I 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:00.389 think what I'm trying to do on another 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.030 level is create a little bit of friction 00:14:03.040 --> 00:14:07.030 for people so that I don't get weird 00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:09.110 people on who want to just dominate my 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.069 channel. And it's a way to do it that so 00:14:12.079 --> 00:14:14.949 far, I mean, I haven't had my my channel 00:14:14.959 --> 00:14:16.629 swarmed by anyone. [laughter] 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.389 So maybe maybe I need a little less 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:21.750 friction, but but creating a little bit 00:14:21.760 --> 00:14:23.829 of that 00:14:23.839 --> 00:14:27.350 upfront just gets people to know what 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.590 I'm about and like do they want to be 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:31.910 playful and fun and kind of ridiculous 00:14:31.920 --> 00:14:33.990 together. You're welcome here. If you 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.310 want to dominate the channel with your 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.230 ideas, um you're going to have a hard 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:40.389 time cuz I'm going to be like singing. 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:41.990 I'm going to be like, "Oh, can you chant 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.629 that please?" 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:46.550 That was you. It was funny because you 00:14:46.560 --> 00:14:48.310 were on a live one of my live streams 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.230 when somebody came in and did that. 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:50.710 >> Yeah, 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:52.310 >> we talked about that very thing, which 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.230 that hadn't happened to me. I was I 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.590 don't think at all. And then uh someone 00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:59.269 was like, "Hey, I heard about your 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.350 channel from so- and so." And it's like 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:02.550 heard this was a really good place to 00:15:02.560 --> 00:15:04.389 debate and I've got all these ideas and 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.069 you know, I debate everything. I debate 00:15:06.079 --> 00:15:07.910

basketball. You know, it's like people 00:15:07.920 --> 00:15:09.910 are like, "Is this a bot? What is this?" 00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:11.509 You know, it's kind of a weird a weird 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:12.230 thing. Uh, 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.550 >> you handled that beautifully, though. I 00:15:14.560 --> 00:15:17.350 I was really impressed, honestly, with 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.310 the the humanity you brought to it. 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.030 >> Well, who knows? Maybe it was a real 00:15:23.040 --> 00:15:24.790 person. I 00:15:24.800 --> 00:15:26.550 Yeah, maybe I didn't know what to do and 00:15:26.560 --> 00:15:28.230 I was just, you know, 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:29.350 >> hopefully I wasn't too dear in the 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:30.629 headlights. But 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:34.389 >> the um the thing about creating the 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:36.389 friction, there's also there's all these 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:38.550 things about the digital space that's so 00:15:38.560 --> 00:15:42.550 slippery and so fast. um that you do in 00:15:42.560 --> 00:15:45.509 a sense have to create friction 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:49.110 even at the expense of 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:53.189 like oh I like seeing number go up you 00:15:53.199 --> 00:15:54.069 know 00:15:54.079 --> 00:15:55.670 >> um 00:15:55.680 --> 00:15:58.790 >> and I was making like a little vlog the 00:15:58.800 --> 00:16:01.829 other day here in the studio and it 00:16:01.839 --> 00:16:03.590 wasn't it didn't hit on the algorithm 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:09.509 very well and I was like uh you know uh 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:10.949 oh do I take this off should have put it 00:16:10.959 --> 00:16:15.829 back on. Blah blah blah. And 00:16:15.839 --> 00:16:18.069 what was I 00:16:18.079 --> 00:16:21.829 the well 00:16:21.839 --> 00:16:25.189 ALS? Oh, so in it I said something about 00:16:25.199 --> 00:16:27.269 these co these podcasts and I do like 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:29.910 this preamble, right? Um that a lot of 00:16:29.920 --> 00:16:31.749 people probably just skip through or 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.590 like can't you know if you watch podcast 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.069 people just like get into it. But I 00:16:36.079 --> 00:16:38.069 think it's more for me honestly. I think 00:16:38.079 --> 00:16:40.949 it's like for me to help navigate where 00:16:40.959 --> 00:16:43.350 I'm at and then 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:46.870 future me or self like and talk about 00:16:46.880 --> 00:16:49.030 liturgies. 00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:51.430 Um that's what that kind of feels like 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.069 for me related to to what you're talking 00:16:54.079 --> 00:16:55.430 about like developing liturgy and you 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:56.870 come from these two guys that like have 00:16:56.880 --> 00:16:58.629 these music backgrounds there. I think 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:01.030 there's something like if you've been a 00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:04.710 performer or you like like I can imagine 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:06.549 you know at whatever venue you were a 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.470 house musician for a while. 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.270 >> Yeah, I still actually play a little bit 00:17:11.280 --> 00:17:14.246 um at this lounge that I quit 00:17:14.256 --> 00:17:15.909 [clears throat] for a couple years. have 00:17:15.919 --> 00:17:21.110 like a a way in which you prepare and 00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:23.429 then start the show and get you know 00:17:23.439 --> 00:17:25.990 like it's it's l it's lurggical you know 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.310 >> it it is I I the I mean the 00:17:30.320 --> 00:17:31.990 we don't have to go too far down this 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:36.390 rabbit hole but um [snorts and laughter] 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:41.190 my main liturgy for my gig at True Lux 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:43.350 which is this kind of fancy seafood 00:17:43.360 --> 00:17:49.510 steakhouse in Austin is to 00:17:49.520 --> 00:17:54.390 get comfortable playing in the space. 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:59.350 >> Um, and and you know, I I'm in a a room 00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:02.710 that has a volume of its own that is 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:04.390 different every time. 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.830 >> And so getting all of getting my tracks 00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:11.190 I played a tracks. Oh my god. 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.150 Um, I I literally when I first started 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.830 playing with tracks, I I was watching 00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:20.470 Battlestar Galactica at the time. Have 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:22.070 you watched Battlestar Galactica, the 00:18:22.080 --> 00:18:23.029 newer 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:24.230 >> one? Oh. 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:27.669 >> Oh god, it's so good. I mean, it's 00:18:27.679 --> 00:18:31.270 basically um about 00:18:31.280 --> 00:18:35.669 humanity and machines merging. And here 00:18:35.679 --> 00:18:37.510 we are. It's scare. Yeah. Like it's it's 00:18:37.520 --> 00:18:39.029 scary. And I'm like, is this where it 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.830 starts? Is it does it start with a human 00:18:41.840 --> 00:18:44.789 kind of like making love to a machine by 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.590 playing music with it? And so I I'm like 00:18:47.600 --> 00:18:49.750 I'm turning into a Sylon. [laughter] 00:18:49.760 --> 00:18:52.230 >> I mean well listen dude there's so much 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:53.909 there because I did I started doing 00:18:53.919 --> 00:18:57.510 tracks in 2013 14 with you know the big 00:18:57.520 --> 00:19:00.390 evangelical multitracks. They're like 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.430 the they have all the the highest level 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:05.830 connections to CCLI and and there's like 00:19:05.840 --> 00:19:07.990 all this marriage between here's the 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:09.510 professionally produced tracks and you 00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:10.789 can pick you know your drums, your 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.710 guitar and and it's an app and it's all 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:14.630

this thing and what you can do with it 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.630 now is nuts. I I haven't looked at it in 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.950 several years but like 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:20.390 you know I was on the kind of the front 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.710 end of that and I took our whole log and 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:24.870 I bought like all the songs that we had 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:26.310 been doing. Mhm. 00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:28.470 >> So, we were completely tied into the 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.029 machine Paul Keen 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.909 >> and but I like looking back now and 00:19:33.919 --> 00:19:34.950 here's what I'll say there. I think 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.510 there's a difference between doing that 00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:40.710 in a lounge than doing that in something 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.870 that's technically supposed to be sacred 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:45.990 space. Um, 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.630 and you know, that's my opinion. 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.510 >> Yeah. Uh 00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:53.413 and and 00:19:53.423 --> 00:19:54.630 [clears throat] 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:57.590 so um 00:19:57.600 --> 00:20:01.190 you know I feel that though like I you 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:02.549 know you're plugged in you have some 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:04.310 guide telling you verse chorus verse 00:20:04.320 --> 00:20:07.029 chorus and then you're 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.909 >> um everyone's locked into that and it 00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:12.390 creates in a sense depending on your 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.190 like if you're all in your monitor and 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.270 you're all 00:20:17.280 --> 00:20:19.190 I don't know it and is supposed to be 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.350 this like engagement at least in 00:20:21.360 --> 00:20:22.549 >> Yeah. 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:24.070 >> corporate worship. 00:20:24.080 --> 00:20:27.750 >> Yeah. It's that's that's I I once I got 00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:29.830 used to playing with inner monitors, I 00:20:29.840 --> 00:20:33.270 was like I never want to not have inear 00:20:33.280 --> 00:20:37.110 monitors, but then what do you do with 00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:39.750 engagement? You know, if like at in in 00:20:39.760 --> 00:20:42.549 my gig, I'm not I'm not really engaging 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:45.510 with people on like verbally, but you 00:20:45.520 --> 00:20:48.149 know, we're connecting background. Yeah, 00:20:48.159 --> 00:20:50.230 it's very much background and then it'll 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:52.630 become foreground usually when the night 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:54.549 kind of 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.390 fizzles a little bit and the room's 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:57.590 about half full and then people are 00:20:57.600 --> 00:20:59.430 like, "Oh, there's a piano player 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.870 singing over there and then it turns a 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.470 little bit more performance. Um, but 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.549 there's not banter coming from the 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.070 stage." Um, 00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:12.789 >> and that that is a different mode, you 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:13.270 know. 00:21:13.280 --> 00:21:13.669 >> Yeah. 00:21:13.679 --> 00:21:14.149 >> And 00:21:14.159 --> 00:21:15.270 >> Yeah. 00:21:15.280 --> 00:21:16.789 Um, 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:20.950 and I remember going inear in 2008. 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:22.950 I was at, you know, I'd done these two 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.430 summers of church camps and I got my 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.310 first in-ear monitor, Sanheiser, nice 00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:30.470 blah blah, you know, like 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.270 >> and uh and I called one of these other 00:21:33.280 --> 00:21:35.270 guys who worked who was a worship leader 00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:37.029 for this camp organization and I was 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:39.190 like, "Oh man, dude, this is weird. I'm 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:40.310 I was I was having these like 00:21:40.320 --> 00:21:43.270 existential like questions about am I 00:21:43.280 --> 00:21:45.110 disconnected from the people, you know, 00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:47.830 like you're saying uh 00:21:47.840 --> 00:21:49.430 you know, but we had to make sure our 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:50.870 BPMs were right. 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:51.510 >> Right. 00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:53.270 >> Because we're using all the Hill Song 00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:55.270 United digital delay and it has to all 00:21:55.280 --> 00:21:57.590 be perfect, right? So, we're going to 00:21:57.600 --> 00:21:59.350 have the click track in our ears, right? 00:21:59.360 --> 00:22:01.270 in 00:22:01.280 --> 00:22:01.990 >> um 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:05.830 >> for me I sing differently with in ears 00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:09.029 because I can I think 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.710 >> I think when I when I don't have in ears 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.750 the I can't quite hear myself as well. 00:22:15.760 --> 00:22:19.270 >> Mhm. And so I'm just pushing my voice a 00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:21.430 little too much and it I kind of blow it 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:23.270 out pretty quick. 00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:26.685 >> And so I'm I'm singing like more like 00:22:26.695 --> 00:22:28.950 [laughter] it there's just this kind of 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.430 raspy tired sound. 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:34.070 >> Whereas when I have in ears I can just 00:22:34.080 --> 00:22:35.510 relax. 00:22:35.520 --> 00:22:37.669 >> And when my vocal cords are relaxed like 00:22:37.679 --> 00:22:40.390 it's like spoton. 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:40.950 >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.909 >> and I can sing in tune and crisp and 00:22:43.919 --> 00:22:47.029 >> I can imagine in a noisy lounge where 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:48.070 you're like 00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:51.669 >> it's not really designed or concert 00:22:51.679 --> 00:22:53.270 right in a sense 00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:54.390 >> like 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.990 >> and and so you have to

fight the medium 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:01.669 to do well what you want to do is I've 00:23:01.679 --> 00:23:02.390 had this 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:04.230 >> man brother you're saying something on 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:06.710 like multiple levels right now. Well, 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.190 I've had this crazy, you know, we here 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.110 we are geeking out about in ears. That's 00:23:11.120 --> 00:23:12.870 a conversation that nobody in the corner 00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.190 has ever talked about on the on the 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:16.549 internet, but the thing about it, 00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:19.190 there's so much there. the multitrack it 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.830 has defined so many of my thoughts 00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:23.830 related to 00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:25.909 the sacred related to John Vervey 00:23:25.919 --> 00:23:28.310 related to these things that Paul Kings 00:23:28.320 --> 00:23:30.470 North the machine like when I'm 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.870 referencing that I'm referencing my con 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:34.549 just like you made that battle battle 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.669 star connect Galactica connection to any 00:23:37.679 --> 00:23:39.350 to multittracks 00:23:39.360 --> 00:23:40.549 >> like 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.870 >> um there's something to that and the 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:47.029 uh the part about monitoring which is 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:48.630 what we're talking about monitoring 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:49.669 voice and that that 00:23:49.679 --> 00:23:50.710 >> Yeah. 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:55.190 So I was in a you know uh this my old 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.029 church was we renovated this old theater 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:01.669 right the oldest theater marquee in the 00:24:01.679 --> 00:24:04.070 state in our state actually we put all 00:24:04.080 --> 00:24:06.470 this money into it sound panels it's 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:07.830 like you know it's a theater so it's 00:24:07.840 --> 00:24:09.590 like got a little bit of that kind of 00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:11.990 sanctuaryesque thing but the whole thing 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.350 if you're going to be drums in here and 00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:15.029 electric guitar you it needs the the 00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.070 room needs to be tuned right it needs to 00:24:18.080 --> 00:24:20.070 uh so you can control and then control 00:24:20.080 --> 00:24:21.909 it all digitally. Well, like it's not 00:24:21.919 --> 00:24:23.830 conducive to congregational singing 00:24:23.840 --> 00:24:27.110 because it's conducive to 00:24:27.120 --> 00:24:30.230 uh rock ensemble and you're trying to do 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.029 say hill song which is made for the 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:34.149 arena. 00:24:34.159 --> 00:24:34.789 >> Mhm. [clears throat] 00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:38.070 >> Two is arena rock. Cold play is arena 00:24:38.080 --> 00:24:40.870 rock. That's what that is. 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:42.390 And you're trying to compress that into 00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:45.590 a, you know, a 300 person seat space 00:24:45.600 --> 00:24:48.470 that doesn't actually work to be 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.029 conducive. So then like now I'm in this 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:54.230 old colonial styled sanctuary with this 00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:57.190 all these hard surfaces. It's dome it's 00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:01.190 got a art like a complete arch. 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:02.870 People that work at these mega churches 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.149 that I know they're from here like one 00:25:04.159 --> 00:25:05.590 guy was like that's the best room I've 00:25:05.600 --> 00:25:06.789 ever performed in. 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:07.830 >> Wow. 00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:11.350 >> And and me and my wife like we we sing. 00:25:11.360 --> 00:25:12.950 We we don't have any monitors. We're 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:15.110 just using the PA. Mhm. 00:25:15.120 --> 00:25:17.669 >> If you can hear the people 00:25:17.679 --> 00:25:20.390 >> and I don't really want to go back. I 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.590 don't want to go back to 00:25:23.600 --> 00:25:27.269 >> needing all that stuff to feel like uh 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:29.430 and 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:32.549 >> feels like the right relationship with 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.230 the sing leading people in 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:36.230 congregational singing and it has to do 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:38.870 with the architecture. It has to do with 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.029 the re reverberation of what that room's 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:43.909 actually designed for. And so anyways, 00:25:43.919 --> 00:25:45.029 those are the levels. 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:51.190 >> Yeah. Reverberation, monitoring. Um, 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.510 so I want to talk about a little bit 00:25:53.520 --> 00:25:55.669 more of my ritual of getting into the 00:25:55.679 --> 00:26:01.590 space. But before I do that, I I too am 00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:03.269 really 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:06.310 drawn to just if you're going to have 00:26:06.320 --> 00:26:09.669 amplification, just have be in a space 00:26:09.679 --> 00:26:12.549 where you can have the speakers behind 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:17.110 you. Sorry, the speakers behind you um 00:26:17.120 --> 00:26:19.269 and the volume at a point where you're 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:20.789 not feeding back, but you can hear 00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:22.630 yourself well enough and you have a 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.110 quiet room. I during the pan right 00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:27.990 before the pandemic I was starting I was 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.669 like dabbling with house concerts 00:26:31.679 --> 00:26:33.510 >> um you know someone will open up their 00:26:33.520 --> 00:26:35.430 home invite their friends I'll invite 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.310 some friends and they just do a donation 00:26:38.320 --> 00:26:41.430 at the end and it was so fun and kind of 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.909 scary because I'm not used to people

00:26:43.919 --> 00:26:45.669 paying attention to me I'm used to just 00:26:45.679 --> 00:26:48.149 being wallpaper 00:26:48.159 --> 00:26:51.963 on the ears in the ears and um 00:26:51.973 --> 00:26:53.909 [clears throat] so I I think there's a 00:26:53.919 --> 00:26:56.789 there's a part of me that would like to 00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.710 get back to that at some point. I don't 00:26:58.720 --> 00:26:59.990 know. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.430 >> Well, yeah, the speakers behind you, 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.470 that's exactly how we're doing it. And 00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:05.909 um 00:27:05.919 --> 00:27:07.510 >> it's it's just crazy to be because 00:27:07.520 --> 00:27:08.630 you're hearing what everyone else is 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:09.990 hearing. You're like a part of that 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:10.950 whole thing. So, 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:11.909 >> right. 00:27:11.919 --> 00:27:14.470 >> Um so, the the thing you were saying 00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:15.990 about your ritual and 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:20.630 >> Yeah. So, the way I get into 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.750 playing is I start with a track that's 00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:27.029 just it's like a jazz kind of a little 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:28.950 jazz intro song that I play at the 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:31.350 beginning of every single 00:27:31.360 --> 00:27:34.789 um night that I'm there. [snorts] 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:38.149 And it's just tracks and piano. And I 00:27:38.159 --> 00:27:42.630 have both monitors out so I can I can 00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:44.390 play the song without actually really 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:46.950 hearing it. like I can I know it well 00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:48.710 enough that I can just as long as I can 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:50.259 hear a snare drum every once in a while 00:27:50.269 --> 00:27:51.029 [laughter] 00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:53.190 >> and maybe a bass note, you know, I can I 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.830 can hear it through the the noise in the 00:27:55.840 --> 00:27:59.029 room. And then halfway through I put in 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.350 one ear monitor to get the level 00:28:03.360 --> 00:28:04.710 uh [clears throat] kind of synced up. 00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:08.630 And then um the next song I'll play one 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:12.070 that has tracks, piano, and voice, one 00:28:12.080 --> 00:28:14.070 that I don't really have to think about. 00:28:14.080 --> 00:28:16.230 and I'll I'll start playing with one ear 00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:17.830 in and it's really uncomfortable for me 00:28:17.840 --> 00:28:20.549 to play with one monitor in. It's like 00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:23.110 uh I'm like like falling over or 00:28:23.120 --> 00:28:25.269 something and then I put the other 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:27.590 monitor in and I am like [snorts] 00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:31.029 I'm sailing at that point. But it's this 00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:32.870 weird [snorts] 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.549 um kind of like I'm like meeting the 00:28:36.559 -->

00:28:40.710 room on this slow kind of gradient which 00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:43.669 I think is somehow connected to what 00:28:43.679 --> 00:28:46.389 we're doing with the TLC 00:28:46.399 --> 00:28:49.350 and the internet. Like there's some 00:28:49.360 --> 00:28:52.789 feedback there. There's something really 00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:55.990 beautiful and attractive about being 00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.310 part of a space that you're being heard 00:28:58.320 --> 00:29:00.470 inside of. You're not just it's not just 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.630 a onedirectional consumption experience. 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:06.549 It's like you're invited into this slow 00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:10.149 gradient of lurking kind of coming out 00:29:10.159 --> 00:29:12.789 of the lurk in the comments, being seen 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:15.669 in the comments, then being invited on 00:29:15.679 --> 00:29:17.510 screen and coming out of the lurk. And 00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:20.549 with every step there's this little step 00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:23.510 of faith that you're 00:29:23.520 --> 00:29:25.590 you're risking something and you're 00:29:25.600 --> 00:29:26.870 gaining something. 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:28.549 >> Yep. 00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:31.110 Yeah, it's a uh the thing that went 00:29:31.120 --> 00:29:32.470 through my mind and I don't know if this 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:36.230 is true, but uh was 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.310 you know you how how old were you when 00:29:38.320 --> 00:29:39.909 you got Facebook? 00:29:39.919 --> 00:29:42.789 >> Oh god. I think I was like 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:46.310 I was probably 23 00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:47.190 or something. 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.430 >> Yeah. So you were part of like the kind 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:51.269 of that the very first wave, right? You 00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:51.510 know? 00:29:51.520 --> 00:29:54.710 >> Yeah. And uh 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.149 and we Luke has said this before, but 00:29:58.159 --> 00:30:02.310 like really using 00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:05.190 YouTube as social media, you know, and 00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.430 and that is happening more and more with 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.909 communities and stuff, but I it's the 00:30:09.919 --> 00:30:12.950 the feeling is that I get from it. 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:14.549 >> It has it's not necessarily nostalgic, 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:16.470 but it's like this is what we were doing 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:18.789 on Facebook. Like this is how Facebook 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.389 actually now it's like you know family 00:30:22.399 --> 00:30:25.269 pictures and that's nice and but like 00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:27.510 the original part like was oh I made a 00:30:27.520 --> 00:30:29.430 group and let's talk about this and oh 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.870 and here you know what's your status you 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.110 know it's like status oh ambiguous what 00:30:35.120 --> 00:30:37.909 are you talking about you know like oh I 00:30:37.919 -->

00:30:39.750 went to this concert oh cool how it was 00:30:39.760 --> 00:30:41.990 very it was very social 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:43.669 >> yeah now it's just an address book I'm 00:30:43.679 --> 00:30:45.110 like oh god I recognize that person 00:30:45.120 --> 00:30:47.350 what's her name what's her name like 00:30:47.360 --> 00:30:50.630 friend of friend of and then like you 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:51.110 know 00:30:51.120 --> 00:30:54.870 >> it's a profile [laughter] and um and I 00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:56.789 wonder if there's a little bit of like 00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:59.110 millennialish 00:30:59.120 --> 00:31:03.430 wisdom or like that that is at play 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:06.389 related to that. I don't know maybe I'm 00:31:06.399 --> 00:31:07.990 wrong. you know, people have been doing 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.630 online discourse and Discord and stuff 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:13.190 now for a long time, but uh it kind of 00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:15.830 to me it hearkens back to that. And then 00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:17.990 the young people who have like gone 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.789 through the 00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:24.070 massive endpoint of social media of like 00:31:24.080 --> 00:31:26.149 4chan and stuff like that get spun out 00:31:26.159 --> 00:31:27.669 of that. They're like, "Oh, what is this 00:31:27.679 --> 00:31:29.430 kind of 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:30.789 a little bit more?" It's like, "Well, 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:32.389 this is what Facebook was like when we 00:31:32.399 --> 00:31:34.149 were 20." That's what it I don't know 00:31:34.159 --> 00:31:36.710 like um that's what came when you were 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:40.149 when you were describing that uh 00:31:40.159 --> 00:31:42.789 related to I don't know 00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:44.389 >> uh but the other thing you said about 00:31:44.399 --> 00:31:47.110 the room which I you know again felt 00:31:47.120 --> 00:31:49.509 like I was wondering if you were kind of 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:52.070 meeting at first it's kind of quiet and 00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:53.430 then it kind of you know people start 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:55.430 the drinks and the meals get on and it's 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.029 like the volume goes up I'm gonna put a 00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:58.230 year in and then it's like kind of 00:31:58.240 --> 00:31:59.990 rockus or something and like hey it's 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.710 concert now and I need to really I don't 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:04.789 But the that 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.549 uh that journey, the TLC kind of liturgy 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:10.297 that you're talking about, you know, 00:32:10.307 --> 00:32:11.269 [clears throat] um 00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:13.110 >> what I think I noticed, and I could be 00:32:13.120 --> 00:32:14.470 wrong because maybe these things weren't 00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.110 on my radar, but there 00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:18.789 >> um 00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:21.909 as people begin to engage like that 00:32:21.919 -->

00:32:24.789 more, you take a certain kind of 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:27.110 ownership over it, you know, and and I 00:32:27.120 --> 00:32:31.029 like a person I was just watching um 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:33.509 Neil Datalus and Nick Freeillian did a 00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.590 conversation with a guy named Zep um 00:32:35.600 --> 00:32:39.750 that just came out. And Nick had only 00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:41.029 been on Twitter, but he'd been paying 00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:42.870 attention to the corner since like 17. 00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:45.990 And he was a young guy, his early 30s. 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:47.750 >> And 00:32:47.760 --> 00:32:50.070 now he was on in a sense he was 00:32:50.080 --> 00:32:54.789 co-hosting Zep's rando 00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:57.509 >> and he did a rando on my channel. Nick 00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:59.190 did, you know, like I don't know, three, 00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.110 four months ago before Midw Midwest 00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:06.070 Estuary and uh and you watch I I oh you 00:33:06.080 --> 00:33:09.350 come out lurk 00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:13.350 you come out of the lurk and then uh you 00:33:13.360 --> 00:33:16.549 begin to take some agency you know 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:18.149 >> um and I mean even your pattern in a 00:33:18.159 --> 00:33:19.350 sense but you already kind of doing this 00:33:19.360 --> 00:33:21.909 with developmental philosophy stuff so 00:33:21.919 --> 00:33:24.149 >> it was like oh I could take I could 00:33:24.159 --> 00:33:27.110 shift some of that and do that over here 00:33:27.120 --> 00:33:28.070 seems like 00:33:28.080 --> 00:33:30.950 >> yeah I I think that's I don't know I'm I 00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.110 what's popping up for me is like what's 00:33:33.120 --> 00:33:35.830 my next step you know I mean I I I 00:33:35.840 --> 00:33:38.789 appreciate you 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:42.070 taking respon like taking I think taking 00:33:42.080 --> 00:33:45.430 ownership in the TLC 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.549 taking responsibility for the TLC is 00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:51.190 doing rando conversations I think that's 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.230 Luke is freaking spoton about the rando 00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:57.430 as kind of the heartbeat of this space 00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:01.029 without the randos. It's just like 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:02.710 >> it's YouTube content churn, right? 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:04.710 >> Yeah, it's just YouTube content churn. 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.389 But it it's like once you have the 00:34:06.399 --> 00:34:10.230 randos in there, it sparkles, you know? 00:34:10.240 --> 00:34:13.109 Um, and so [clears throat] I'm thinking 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:14.869 about 00:34:14.879 --> 00:34:16.950 as you're speaking like what would be my 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.310 next step in this this gradient of 00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.918 coming out of the lurk and coming into 00:34:23.928 --> 00:34:23.990 >> [clears throat] 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:27.750 >> um both kind of a 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.230 a more responsible 00:34:30.240 --> 00:34:33.270 uh self-sacrificial. 00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:38.550 Okay. cuz it it it means that I'm I'm 00:34:38.560 --> 00:34:41.349 bringing the spotlight to somebody else 00:34:41.359 --> 00:34:44.149 >> and um [clears throat] you know that's 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:46.310 sometimes hard for a performer. 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.790 >> That's right. The [laughter] thing the 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.589 thing about that it also builds trust 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:53.669 you know these things like I watch like 00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:58.390 so it's funny uh talk about this. So 00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:00.390 last year my conversation with Benjamin 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:02.390 Boyce was my biggest conversation and 00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.550 the next episode I did was rando with 00:35:04.560 --> 00:35:07.990 Afrael and I I don't no one's told me 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.710 this but I think it like my hypothesis 00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:13.109 is that it built it was a trust building 00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:15.030 thing that happened because no one he 00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:17.750 was complete rando but Paul knew who he 00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:19.349 was because Paul had been estuary stuff 00:35:19.359 --> 00:35:20.950 on the northwest coast with him but he 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:23.430 you know but he was he had like come out 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:25.190 he he came on my channel like a live 00:35:25.200 --> 00:35:27.190 stream 00:35:27.200 --> 00:35:28.790 I believe it was either the day that 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.030 Trump was shot or on the Trump's 00:35:31.040 --> 00:35:34.630 election. I can't remember. Um, but he 00:35:34.640 --> 00:35:37.349 comes out and then I do this rando after 00:35:37.359 --> 00:35:39.829 having like my most, you know, big 00:35:39.839 --> 00:35:42.870 thing. And Paul did like three videos 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:44.710 with Afriel after that, like three 00:35:44.720 --> 00:35:46.069 different like 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:49.910 >> like breakdowns something. And uh yeah, 00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:51.510 so the sparkle like you're saying and 00:35:51.520 --> 00:35:54.150 like what is that and what does it mean 00:35:54.160 --> 00:35:57.510 to model that um and to to put time and 00:35:57.520 --> 00:36:01.190 care and attention to that and I wasn't 00:36:01.200 --> 00:36:03.270 because Neil said that he when in our 00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:05.750 last conversation he was like yeah you 00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:07.430 took responsibility and I was like I 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:08.710 didn't feel like I was taking here's 00:36:08.720 --> 00:36:09.990 what I felt like I felt like I was 00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:11.990 trying to play the play the game that 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.109 everyone was I was trying to join in and 00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:16.790 like oh he's doing that and this was 00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:17.990 kind of the show and thing. Oh, he's 00:36:18.000

--> 00:36:19.589 doing that. I'll do that. 00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:20.470 >> Oh, [clears throat] dad can do a 00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.030 podcast. Cool. I won't do a podcast. Uh 00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:25.030 uh PVK does commentary. I'll try some 00:36:25.040 --> 00:36:27.670 commentary. Oh, this rando. Okay, now 00:36:27.680 --> 00:36:31.349 let's Yeah. So, that was 00:36:31.359 --> 00:36:33.430 uh but at the same time, it's not like 00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:35.270 it's totally altruistic. It's like, oh, 00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:37.030 this is cool. Oh, look, number go up. 00:36:37.040 --> 00:36:39.190 Oh, look, you know, engagement like it's 00:36:39.200 --> 00:36:40.790 all all 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.870 >> at play in a sense. Um but yeah that the 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.790 the I I don't know if I felt like 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:49.589 responsibility at that point 00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.790 uh early on but probably since some now 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:54.470 but um 00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:55.030 >> Mhm. 00:36:55.040 --> 00:36:56.630 >> I don't know. 00:36:56.640 --> 00:37:00.630 >> Yeah, modeling is so important. It's 00:37:00.640 --> 00:37:05.349 like this mimetic fuel. And um it's 00:37:05.359 --> 00:37:06.360 interesting that 00:37:06.370 --> 00:37:08.950 [clears throat and snorts] 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.430 you bring up the term show and tell 00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.390 because there's there's a mirror of 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.589 something that's happening in the TLC 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:22.790 that I think is happening in my church. 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.510 >> Um and 00:37:25.520 --> 00:37:27.670 revolving around this this word showand 00:37:27.680 --> 00:37:33.270 tell. So I for the last 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:36.069 I mean I I think I we're coming up on 20 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:40.150 years baptis baptized in the Orthodox 00:37:40.160 --> 00:37:43.109 church and all I know is my home parish 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.430 like that's basically it. And when they 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.990 found out that I was a musician and 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:50.230 they're like oh do you want to run our 00:37:50.240 --> 00:37:53.829 talent show and I from the very 00:37:53.839 --> 00:37:55.030 beginning have always been really 00:37:55.040 --> 00:37:57.670 uncomfortable with the term talent show. 00:37:57.680 --> 00:38:01.349 It just it puts people into the talented 00:38:01.359 --> 00:38:04.069 or the not and [snorts] 00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.150 it gives people an immediate excuse to 00:38:06.160 --> 00:38:09.109 say like, "Oh, I'm not talented. That's 00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:11.750 not for me. That's like something cute." 00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.470 But what I wanted to create was a space 00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:17.190 where people can get to know each other 00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:19.990 in a way that they don't get to know 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.230 each other um [snorts and clears throat] 00:38:22.240 --> 00:38:25.430 like after church on a Sunday and just 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:27.510 share a part of themselves whether it's 00:38:27.520 --> 00:38:31.990 a story, music, a poem, interpretive 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.349 scarf dancing. Okay, that's safe here. 00:38:35.359 --> 00:38:40.390 And so I a friend we it would typically 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:44.390 land on Thomas Sunday which is the like 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:48.150 a Sunday or two after Pusca 00:38:48.160 --> 00:38:50.230 and that's when we would have our talent 00:38:50.240 --> 00:38:52.230 show and so we a friend was like well 00:38:52.240 --> 00:38:54.069 why don't you call it show and tell 00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:57.430 Thomas like Thomas Sunday show and tell 00:38:57.440 --> 00:38:58.470 and so uh 00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:01.109 >> here here are these wounds. Yes, 00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:02.870 exactly. [laughter] 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:03.349 So, 00:39:03.359 --> 00:39:05.430 >> I don't believe are you real? 00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:08.470 >> Yeah, but I I love I love the term show 00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:11.349 and tell and but that comes with other 00:39:11.359 --> 00:39:12.390 problems because people don't really 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.230 know what it is. You know, people know 00:39:14.240 --> 00:39:18.630 what a talent show is. But um it's over 00:39:18.640 --> 00:39:22.230 the years it's developed and this last 00:39:22.240 --> 00:39:24.230 Saturday 00:39:24.240 --> 00:39:26.630 um we it kind of moved to the fall last 00:39:26.640 --> 00:39:29.030 year and for several reasons and we we 00:39:29.040 --> 00:39:32.790 put it on a Saturday. This last year, we 00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:36.470 turned it into a fall festival with an 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:40.150 art marketplace, like arts and crafts. 00:39:40.160 --> 00:39:43.589 And we just started small with like 11 00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:46.550 11 art booths. And you had, you know, a 00:39:46.560 --> 00:39:49.990 girl selling bracelets for $5. She 00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:52.390 crushed [snorts] it. She like made over 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:53.670 $100. 00:39:53.680 --> 00:39:55.030 >> 10-year-old, you know, that's good 00:39:55.040 --> 00:39:55.510 money. 00:39:55.520 --> 00:39:56.150 >> Wow. 00:39:56.160 --> 00:39:59.990 >> I sold one of my metal art pieces. Um my 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.589 wife had her table set up. And so 00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:09.030 this small little um fractal of just 00:40:09.040 --> 00:40:11.829 kind of modeling self-expression 00:40:11.839 --> 00:40:15.430 I think just grew and birthed something 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:17.990 that I don't know I would have thought 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.470 was possible at our parish. 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:23.510 >> Um and 00:40:23.520 --> 00:40:25.109 I think that's just the power of 00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:28.470 modeling. model 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.589 >> modeling self-expression and 00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:34.470 uh and it's just it's this interesting 00:40:34.480

--> 00:40:36.630 thing like 00:40:36.640 --> 00:40:38.310 I don't even know if schools do it 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.750 anymore, you know. Um but I I think I I 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:44.470 remember showand tell on Fridays and you 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.790 bring your cool I don't know GI Joe or 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:47.349 whatever. 00:40:47.359 --> 00:40:49.510 >> Yeah. It stays in your backpack all day 00:40:49.520 --> 00:40:50.950 because you can't play with it. But it's 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.910 like, yeah, this is my, you know, 00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:56.069 there's something really beautiful about 00:40:56.079 --> 00:40:59.430 that in in a way. I But then, oh well, 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:00.710 you know, what about Johnny that doesn't 00:41:00.720 --> 00:41:02.550 have a G.I. Joe, so maybe we should do 00:41:02.560 --> 00:41:05.990 show and tell anymore. And so it's like, 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:08.870 >> what do you do with that? And then um, 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:11.270 >> you know, like, and this is, but that 00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:12.710 was even the temptation or not the 00:41:12.720 --> 00:41:13.910 temptation, but that was even the motive 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:15.190 to change it from talent show to show 00:41:15.200 --> 00:41:16.630 and tell. M 00:41:16.640 --> 00:41:21.430 >> well now uh there it seems to always 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.550 there's this level of that um because on 00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:26.550 the the flip side of of that 00:41:26.560 --> 00:41:28.309 conversation because I consider you know 00:41:28.319 --> 00:41:30.710 I'm a I'm more of a structuralist 00:41:30.720 --> 00:41:33.349 hierarchical than I am the postmodern 00:41:33.359 --> 00:41:34.950 and I think I would consider you maybe 00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.589 more of like kind of the postmodern like 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.349 I don't I could be wrong but 00:41:39.359 --> 00:41:42.550 >> I am both I am 100% structuralist and 00:41:42.560 --> 00:41:44.069 100% 00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:46.069 uh non- hierarchical 00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:48.950 the hierarchy. Build the hierarchy. 00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:50.710 >> Yeah. [laughter] 00:41:50.720 --> 00:41:53.190 Uh and 00:41:53.200 --> 00:41:56.790 because there's this um 00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.670 because there is there is also the 00:41:59.680 --> 00:42:02.550 talent show that like I think about 00:42:02.560 --> 00:42:04.950 those there's like a recent one but you 00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:07.589 that used to be big on YouTube like the 00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:09.829 kid that did the dance that could do 00:42:09.839 --> 00:42:11.109 like I don't know if you remember there 00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:13.270 was like this uh talent show dance thing 00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:16.150 where this guy went viral I don't know 00:42:16.160 --> 00:42:17.829 20 you know almost 20 years ago 00:42:17.839 --> 00:42:18.470 probably. 00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.870 >> Wow. But I w, you know, I've seen one 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:22.550 recently where a kid gets up and does 00:42:22.560 --> 00:42:25.270 Michael Jackson and he might not be like 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:27.349 and maybe nobody knew that he could do 00:42:27.359 --> 00:42:29.430 Michael Jackson and then he gets up 00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:32.390 there and like you know all 400 500 kids 00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:34.870 at this school rally are just like look 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.750 at this kid do this thing. Mhm. 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.670 >> So there is there is this thing where 00:42:39.680 --> 00:42:42.710 the talent show kind of 00:42:42.720 --> 00:42:48.230 high can highlight in a way um 00:42:48.240 --> 00:42:50.309 secret talent, you know. Um 00:42:50.319 --> 00:42:51.109 >> yeah. 00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:53.349 >> And so uh not to say that I I think your 00:42:53.359 --> 00:42:55.190 idea is brilliant, but but that there's 00:42:55.200 --> 00:42:57.510 also the where there is a there seems to 00:42:57.520 --> 00:42:59.829 be a place for that somewhere, too. I 00:42:59.839 --> 00:43:02.470 think I think you're describing like how 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:04.230 I've 00:43:04.240 --> 00:43:06.390 >> oscillated back and forth between show 00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:08.550 and tell and talent show over the years. 00:43:08.560 --> 00:43:08.790 >> Yeah. 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.990 >> And now I I'll literally have showand 00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:15.784 tell/talent show because I can't decide. 00:43:15.794 --> 00:43:16.630 [laughter] 00:43:16.640 --> 00:43:18.870 >> And so then I just I just tell people 00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:20.550 what this is about. 00:43:20.560 --> 00:43:22.710 >> And if they say I don't have any talent, 00:43:22.720 --> 00:43:24.630 I'll be like, "This isn't a talent show. 00:43:24.640 --> 00:43:26.790 This is about our community getting to 00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:28.870 know each other." And so 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:31.589 >> there's a uh to take it the you know 00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:32.390 theological 00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:33.109 >> bring it 00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:37.030 >> the um and to take it Protestant 00:43:37.040 --> 00:43:39.589 >> and we need you too. Okay. [laughter] 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:43.109 Well, I heard this is I fig I feel I 00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:45.430 feel like it's fairly common, but so 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.270 obviously the tension between what to do 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:54.390 with the eukarist postreformation 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:56.069 when 00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:59.109 Calvin was trying to push against some 00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:00.630 kind of version he would call like a 00:44:00.640 --> 00:44:03.030 hyper superstition, but then when he was 00:44:03.040 --> 00:44:05.190 talking to Zwingley, he was pushing 00:44:05.200 --> 00:44:07.829 against a hyper, 00:44:07.839 --> 00:44:09.270 you know, 00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.670 the zero metaphysics. 00:44:11.680 --> 00:44:13.190 And so when he would talk to Zwingley, 00:44:13.200 --> 00:44:15.829 he

would lean into this the higher 00:44:15.839 --> 00:44:17.510 version of sacramenttology. But when he 00:44:17.520 --> 00:44:19.430 was talking to Catholics, he would pull 00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.190 back and be a little bit more 00:44:21.200 --> 00:44:23.270 memorialistic in a way. 00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:28.870 >> Um and to try to find like what is that? 00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:30.950 What are we really aiming at? Like I 00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:33.990 don't know. and and it's not in a sense, 00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:36.870 you know, I just it reminded me of kind 00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:40.230 of a dialectic in a way that um the way 00:44:40.240 --> 00:44:42.230 you that and the way that that I've 00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:43.670 heard that story about Calvin, whether 00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:45.829 it's true or not, I don't know. But 00:44:45.839 --> 00:44:48.470 >> yeah, well, I I think I don't know if I 00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:50.870 still have this tagline on Twitter, but 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.829 um at one point I had a tagline like 00:44:53.839 --> 00:44:57.589 Riel Windong Thirstston [snorts] like 00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:01.270 dancing between Eden and Escaton. 00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.550 such a hippie. Oh my god. 00:45:04.560 --> 00:45:08.150 But I think of Eden 00:45:08.160 --> 00:45:11.829 uh as as the the kind of ultimate 00:45:11.839 --> 00:45:15.589 bifurcation of opposites and Escaton as 00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:19.829 like the omega, the the unification. 00:45:19.839 --> 00:45:21.430 And somewhere [snorts] 00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:25.829 in between those is where I am. M 00:45:25.839 --> 00:45:27.270 >> and 00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:29.670 >> I 00:45:29.680 --> 00:45:32.069 if if it's one or the other, I think 00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:35.030 there are major pitfalls that will or 00:45:35.040 --> 00:45:36.950 pathologies that will crop up. 00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:38.550 >> Are you familiar with the term 00:45:38.560 --> 00:45:43.270 amillennial, the theological term? I I 00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:46.390 that was that term 00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:50.390 was just coming into my like awareness 00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.150 around the time I was leaving the 00:45:52.160 --> 00:45:53.750 Baptist church because they were like 00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.990 really into like the millennium and I'm 00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:56.309 like 00:45:56.319 --> 00:45:56.870 >> yes 00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:57.990 >> whoa this is 00:45:58.000 --> 00:45:59.670 >> symbolically Yeah. And then we could 00:45:59.680 --> 00:46:01.670 have a conversation about Doug Wilson on 00:46:01.680 --> 00:46:03.109 Sam Harris talking about his 00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:06.309 postmillennial or yeah post I always get 00:46:06.319 --> 00:46:07.670 post Malone when I'm saying 00:46:07.680 --> 00:46:09.430 postmillennial I always think post 00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:11.109 Malone 00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:14.069 and but the the thing about 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:16.630 amillennialism is that it the kind of

00:46:16.640 --> 00:46:19.270 mimemetic term that encapsulated is 00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:22.390 already but not yet. That's kind of the 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.670 idea about the millennium is also not a 00:46:25.680 --> 00:46:27.990 strict thousand years, but we're in that 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.829 already but not yet space between and 00:46:31.839 --> 00:46:33.910 >> you're speaking cosmic naval love 00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:36.150 language right there. That I feel like 00:46:36.160 --> 00:46:38.710 that is I learned already but not yet 00:46:38.720 --> 00:46:41.030 from Rob Bell. That is for sure where 00:46:41.040 --> 00:46:41.990 that came from. 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:43.750 >> Yeah. Well, I mean and he was getting 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:44.710 that. That's 00:46:44.720 --> 00:46:49.430 >> Bell. Pray to God for us. [laughter] 00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:53.902 Take that, Orthobros. 00:46:53.912 --> 00:46:54.630 >> [laughter] 00:46:54.640 --> 00:46:56.470 >> You and you and Luke need to start a 00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:59.142 church together. 00:46:59.152 --> 00:47:02.150 [laughter] 00:47:02.160 --> 00:47:04.382 >> Oh god. 00:47:04.392 --> 00:47:04.470 [laughter] 00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:06.870 >> That was Do you know Did you see Luke? 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:08.790 He He put up that thing about Rob Bell. 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:10.630 It went viral on Twitter. Did you see 00:47:10.640 --> 00:47:11.670 that happen? 00:47:11.680 --> 00:47:13.190 >> Uhuh. 00:47:13.200 --> 00:47:15.829 Luke, I I was on Facebook and I got an 00:47:15.839 --> 00:47:18.950 ad from Rod Bell and Rob Bell's on a 00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:20.550 bike and he's got a camera and he's 00:47:20.560 --> 00:47:22.150 walking. He's going down. He's like, I I 00:47:22.160 --> 00:47:23.910 don't know what's going on in politics 00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:26.870 and the world, but join me on my Patreon 00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:28.470 and we can create our own little corner 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:32.150 of the internet. And uh and I clipped it 00:47:32.160 --> 00:47:34.470 like I did a screen. I sent it to Luke 00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:36.390 because you know his he's the Rob Bell 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:36.870 guy, right? 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:37.430 >> Yeah. 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:38.950 >> And I was like, Luke, he's like, "Are 00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:40.630 you going to post that?" I was like, 00:47:40.640 --> 00:47:42.390 "Dude, I think it's yours. I think 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:46.470 you're this is this is for you to post. 00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:46.790 >> Yeah. 00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:50.069 >> And uh he did and it got like 15,000 00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:51.270 views. I don't know where it is. 00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:52.150 >> Oh my gosh. 00:47:52.160 --> 00:47:53.750 >> There were people like young wrestlers 00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:58.150 reform people uh like oh Rob Bell you 00:47:58.160 --> 00:47:59.990 believe this guy but there was something 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:02.630 about the angle and his classes and like 00:48:02.640 --> 00:48:04.309 the whole but he was just saying hey Rob 00:48:04.319 --> 00:48:05.510 Bell said this little corner of the 00:48:05.520 --> 00:48:06.790 internet. That was kind of his thing and 00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:08.550 it went 00:48:08.560 --> 00:48:10.870 >> boom. I I remember him talking about 00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:11.670 that. 00:48:11.680 --> 00:48:15.990 >> Yeah. And but it it's 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:17.990 >> he's an interesting he's an interesting 00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.870 character. I was the thing I was most 00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:23.910 impacted by was his use of media. You 00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:25.829 know, I watched a few of the Numa videos 00:48:25.839 --> 00:48:27.589 and me and a buddy 00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:29.589 >> and my brother were kind of into video 00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:30.950 editing 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:33.910 >> and I told my friend, his name is Marcus 00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:37.430 and uh he he was our pastor's son and he 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.349 had been real homeschooled in, you know, 00:48:39.359 --> 00:48:41.670 this is like early 2000s, but he got for 00:48:41.680 --> 00:48:45.589 his graduation, he got a um Canon XL1, 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:46.870 which I don't know if you were familiar 00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:49.349 with these cool cameras back in the day, 00:48:49.359 --> 00:48:51.829 but it was like it looked like a big 00:48:51.839 --> 00:48:53.750 Hollywood camera. It sat on your 00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:56.309 shoulder and it was like digital but it 00:48:56.319 --> 00:48:57.750 wasn't like high def but it was the 00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:00.630 first and he knew how to use ProTools 00:49:00.640 --> 00:49:03.109 and I was like hey I want to make a 00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:06.950 video like Rob Bells I want to do um for 00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:08.870 our campus ministry I want to make like 00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.549 a a thing. So yeah I mean I was but it 00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:16.870 wasn't so much his like his uh edgy 00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:18.870 theology for me. It was like the fact 00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:21.670 that he was pushing the envelope, you 00:49:21.680 --> 00:49:23.270 know, technologically or something that 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:25.030 I thought was cool 00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:27.589 >> that I I we're just going on so many 00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:30.150 tangents right now, but I'm I just had 00:49:30.160 --> 00:49:32.710 this idea like what if 00:49:32.720 --> 00:49:34.950 what if we had someone in the corner 00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:36.950 with some kind of video editing, 00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:39.430 producing skills, and maybe even some 00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:43.990 creative direction skills. like 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.390 do some silly movie together where we 00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:50.790 all contribute something. I don't know. 00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:53.510 I feel like it could be really fun. 00:49:53.520 --> 00:49:56.230 >> So Chad, which

he kind of shut his 00:49:56.240 --> 00:49:58.390 channel down, but uh Neil did another 00:49:58.400 --> 00:49:59.829 one with David, a guy named David 00:49:59.839 --> 00:50:03.190 Busatil, and they did worldly worldly 00:50:03.200 --> 00:50:04.630 news tonight. 00:50:04.640 --> 00:50:05.030 >> Mhm. 00:50:05.040 --> 00:50:07.190 >> And it but it was all distance, you 00:50:07.200 --> 00:50:10.870 know. Um and it was like satire on 00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:12.710 people Paul talks about basically and 00:50:12.720 --> 00:50:14.790 people in the corner. 00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:16.470 um the thing that I've thought about 00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:18.710 less is less silly related to such 00:50:18.720 --> 00:50:20.549 things but 00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:24.309 was like um kickstarting something 00:50:24.319 --> 00:50:25.510 because you would need if you're going 00:50:25.520 --> 00:50:27.910 to do in person it gets expensive 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:29.270 because everybody in the corner is 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.870 spread out across 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:32.390 >> you know a couple of continents in in 00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:34.150 the United States but it's like 00:50:34.160 --> 00:50:37.670 >> oh well what if um you part of what is 00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:39.270 like you would pay to do this to go 00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:41.109 listen to kale but then there's also 00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:44.790 there's a a a level give a don lecture 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:46.230 live, but someone's recording it. But 00:50:46.240 --> 00:50:47.990 then there's also estuary and then 00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:51.270 there's also like vloggy stuff. 00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:52.950 Um, 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:55.600 you know, that kind of thing. Or 00:50:55.610 --> 00:50:56.470 [snorts] 00:50:56.480 --> 00:50:59.910 someone did a docu a mini doc about Grim 00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:02.390 Grizz or or it all got mashed in 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.069 together. Like it's like you go to his 00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:05.829 house and you're like here's Grim doing 00:51:05.839 --> 00:51:09.670 his doing his uh show, you know, like 00:51:09.680 --> 00:51:10.390 >> Oh yeah. 00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:14.549 >> third person. Um, 00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:16.230 you see these things like David one time 00:51:16.240 --> 00:51:18.710 he he he wrote a script, a screenplay 00:51:18.720 --> 00:51:21.829 and PVK had like nine people and they 00:51:21.839 --> 00:51:23.109 all read through it, you know. 00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:24.950 >> I saw that 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.630 >> and it but there are the limits of 00:51:28.640 --> 00:51:29.910 this format, right? 00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:31.270 >> Yeah. Yeah. 00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:32.549 >> And it and 00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:34.710 >> it it was hard. I did not stick around 00:51:34.720 --> 00:51:35.910 for that one. I [clears throat] I 00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:37.270 watched for a little while and I was 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:39.030 like [snorts] 00:51:39.040 --> 00:51:39.990 >> didn't hit it 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.109 >> didn't hit. 00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:43.109 >> Yeah. And 00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:45.670 there's I think that the corner in the 00:51:45.680 --> 00:51:47.910 sense is talking about the what's 00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:50.470 nextish stuff, but like I I have a sense 00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:52.150 that it's 00:51:52.160 --> 00:51:53.910 it either has to do that kind of stuff. 00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:55.910 You have to 00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:58.069 tell the the story has to be told now in 00:51:58.079 --> 00:51:59.670 a different way. 00:51:59.680 --> 00:52:04.230 >> Um you know the medium of documentary or 00:52:04.240 --> 00:52:05.750 like you're saying something could be 00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:09.430 playful too. But um that's my that's my 00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:11.510 sense of it. I I think you're right like 00:52:11.520 --> 00:52:12.630 well what if you know he had people 00:52:12.640 --> 00:52:15.030 there are people that have that stuff 00:52:15.040 --> 00:52:16.470 but like the coordination and the 00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:18.950 finance is actually a pretty big 00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:20.790 challenge but that's kind of what I 00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:23.750 think would 00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:25.270 have everybody's attention and would 00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:28.710 take the story for further um 00:52:28.720 --> 00:52:31.109 >> is is something like that 00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:34.390 >> the next step of evolution in the DLC. 00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:36.230 >> Well developmental philosophy. 00:52:36.240 --> 00:52:37.109 >> Yeah. 00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:39.270 >> So what is Yeah. Why is you know when 00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:41.190 you said to me I on my vlog I was I did 00:52:41.200 --> 00:52:42.390 a little mini vlog and I was 00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:44.549 interviewing a few people at Midwest Est 00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:47.109 and you said this is the bleeding edge 00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:48.630 like why 00:52:48.640 --> 00:52:51.430 >> let's keep you know tapping on that a 00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:53.109 little bit. [gasps] 00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:55.670 >> Yeah I was actually thinking about that 00:52:55.680 --> 00:52:57.430 this morning a little bit like what is 00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.349 it 00:52:59.359 --> 00:53:01.670 why is the TLC 00:53:01.680 --> 00:53:03.670 the bleeding edge of culture? I mean, I 00:53:03.680 --> 00:53:09.190 I think I I kind of found this space. 00:53:09.200 --> 00:53:11.670 I I can't tell if it was purely my own 00:53:11.680 --> 00:53:13.349 personal 00:53:13.359 --> 00:53:16.069 algo or if I was like seeking something 00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:20.390 out and then I ran across this. Um, but 00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:22.870 you know, I work for the Institute for 00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:24.710 Cultural Evolution, which is a really 00:53:24.720 --> 00:53:25.910 unfortunate name that we're actually 00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:27.510 going to be changing, I think, pretty 00:53:27.520 -->

00:53:30.150 soon, to something more developmental 00:53:30.160 --> 00:53:32.630 philosophyoriented. 00:53:32.640 --> 00:53:35.422 Um because the acronym ICE not 00:53:35.432 --> 00:53:36.150 [laughter] 00:53:36.160 --> 00:53:39.829 not uh we've been like real dodgy with 00:53:39.839 --> 00:53:42.710 that for many years and it's like okay 00:53:42.720 --> 00:53:43.510 time to 00:53:43.520 --> 00:53:45.270 >> and you're in Austin so like southern 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:47.030 Texas is like god 00:53:47.040 --> 00:53:49.910 >> pretty you know close to the action. 00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:53.349 >> Yeah. Well technically the institute is 00:53:53.359 --> 00:53:54.950 in Boulder but 00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.750 >> Oh yeah I I telecommute. 00:53:57.760 --> 00:53:59.750 >> Telecomute. 00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:01.990 So I 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:05.990 part part of my I mean part of my job is 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:08.870 just like 00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:11.750 pushing stuff out onto the internet like 00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:14.870 any kind of communication type person 00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:18.069 whether it's on YouTube cutting videos 00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:20.069 putting stuff on all the social media 00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:23.190 channels emailing our group um you know 00:54:23.200 --> 00:54:24.549 facilitating a monthly [clears throat] 00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:27.589 Zoom group that we have but I'm also 00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:30.470 just keeping an eye out for where where 00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:35.027 is evolution happening in our culture? 00:54:35.037 --> 00:54:37.270 [snorts] And 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:42.309 um what I noticed is in this little TLC 00:54:42.319 --> 00:54:45.270 space is there's a lot of 00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:48.950 people who seem like they're both 00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:51.109 conservative and high in openness. I 00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:52.390 think Luke was probably the first one 00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:54.549 who put those words together, like 00:54:54.559 --> 00:54:56.069 conservatives, high and openness, 00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:58.549 conservatives. And I was like, "Wow, 00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:02.230 that's really sparkly to me." [snorts] 00:55:02.240 --> 00:55:04.309 Um, 00:55:04.319 --> 00:55:07.030 and you know, I don't know. I feel like 00:55:07.040 --> 00:55:10.309 our our whole meaning making system in 00:55:10.319 --> 00:55:12.470 our culture is kind of unraveling right 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:15.510 now. And 00:55:15.520 --> 00:55:17.430 the 00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:19.910 the TLC it it made me think of Are Are 00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:21.990 you familiar with Kinugi art? Do you 00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.190 know what Kinugi art is? Yeah, 00:55:23.200 --> 00:55:24.870 >> we have one in our house. 00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:26.150 >> Okay. So, 00:55:26.160 --> 00:55:27.910 >> I'm I'm a good millennial, dude. 00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:29.990 >> Dude, you're so good. So, this is this 00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:33.670 is a cup that I broke earlier this year. 00:55:33.680 --> 00:55:35.349 >> You did your own kugi. 00:55:35.359 --> 00:55:38.390 >> I had my own kugi on this cup and I I 00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:41.750 took a piece of rebar from I35 that I 00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:46.630 found, you know, and I kugied it to this 00:55:46.640 --> 00:55:48.789 mug that was broken. 00:55:48.799 --> 00:55:50.390 >> No, it's [laughter] 00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:53.430 cheap Amazon 00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:55.270 It's like epoxy with some 00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:57.510 >> like a lot quite a bit of gold actually. 00:55:57.520 --> 00:56:00.230 >> Yeah. No, I know. No, it's just I'm glad 00:56:00.240 --> 00:56:01.910 that it tricked you. It looks just kind 00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:04.470 of like snot, honestly. It's it's not 00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:04.789 >> well 00:56:04.799 --> 00:56:05.670 >> high quality. 00:56:05.680 --> 00:56:08.470 >> It's a simulacum of Kugi. 00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:10.150 >> Yeah. 00:56:10.160 --> 00:56:15.190 But the the cons the the cracks are are 00:56:15.200 --> 00:56:18.630 the the main event in Kugi art. And I 00:56:18.640 --> 00:56:20.630 feel like like [snorts] in this 00:56:20.640 --> 00:56:23.990 unraveling both the left and the right, 00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.430 you know, if we want to talk about it in 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:27.030 those terms, I don't actually see it 00:56:27.040 --> 00:56:29.750 through that frame, but there seems to 00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:31.430 be 00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:35.670 space opening up. And it it feels like 00:56:35.680 --> 00:56:39.270 the the TLC this this 00:56:39.280 --> 00:56:41.829 groundless ground [laughter] 00:56:41.839 --> 00:56:45.589 is a space where people can kind of try 00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:47.270 on 00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:49.510 other ideas 00:56:49.520 --> 00:56:51.190 without the consequences of being 00:56:51.200 --> 00:56:52.870 cancelled. M 00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:55.510 >> and I think that that work used to 00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:59.270 happen in universities 00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:02.230 and now it's just so there's so much I 00:57:02.240 --> 00:57:05.589 don't know the stakes are so high that 00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:08.069 um it's it's hard to do that without 00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:11.670 getting a lot of politics and money 00:57:11.680 --> 00:57:14.710 concern involved. 00:57:14.720 --> 00:57:15.990 >> Yeah. Yeah. And especially I mean if 00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:18.390 you're doing a three-hour and 00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:20.230 >> you in there and you you say you talk 00:57:20.240 --> 00:57:21.990 for five minutes or you talk for 15 00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:24.309 minutes and but you have this 00:57:24.319 --> 00:57:26.870 opportunity to like 00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:29.910 I think the way I've described it was 00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:31.670 for seven years the conversation only 00:57:31.680 --> 00:57:33.829 went like one way and it wasn't like a 00:57:33.839 --> 00:57:35.589 like I said it didn't who do I talk to

00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:39.270 about this? I don't know. and uh and he 00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:40.950 comes, oh these people are talking about 00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:42.870 that and there you know and there's 00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:45.990 people in here talking and uh I was able 00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:48.309 to enter into a conversation that had 00:57:48.319 --> 00:57:50.069 been going on like in my mind like you 00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:51.670 said I don't know if I was trying on 00:57:51.680 --> 00:57:53.270 something but I was like having the 00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:55.430 opportunity to 00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:58.630 process and I think that you know some 00:57:58.640 --> 00:58:00.470 of the meaning stuff is that 00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:02.069 >> everyone 00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:03.910 and then it can come out really intense 00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:05.670 like you're taking in all this political 00:58:05.680 --> 00:58:06.950 stuff or you're taking all this phil 00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:08.150 philosophical ical stuff. You're taking 00:58:08.160 --> 00:58:09.670 all this scientific or religious stuff 00:58:09.680 --> 00:58:12.710 and it's like more than we generally 00:58:12.720 --> 00:58:15.589 have had the ability to process, you 00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:17.829 know, like it's probably too fast. But 00:58:17.839 --> 00:58:21.190 here we are. And so [clears throat] 00:58:21.200 --> 00:58:24.710 >> um and some of the stuff like if it was 00:58:24.720 --> 00:58:26.309 you know generally in a sense downstream 00:58:26.319 --> 00:58:28.150 from Jordan Peterson like well he was 00:58:28.160 --> 00:58:30.069 talking about things online that were 00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:34.390 dicey and so but and it happened here 00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:36.950 and so kind of like okay well here's 00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:38.950 where a conversation is going to keep 00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:39.829 happening. It's not 00:58:39.839 --> 00:58:40.390 >> Yeah. 00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:42.470 >> about those hot button issues from a 00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:44.309 decade ago, but 00:58:44.319 --> 00:58:48.549 >> um it's still I think part of this uh 00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:49.670 >> you know culture. 00:58:49.680 --> 00:58:51.670 >> Yeah. Jordan Peterson was kind of like 00:58:51.680 --> 00:58:54.549 the sharp end of the spear that that I I 00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:58.549 I feel like broke it wide open. 00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:04.309 >> And um I was a Jordan Peterson addict 00:59:04.319 --> 00:59:07.510 um early on and then kind of just got 00:59:07.520 --> 00:59:10.950 real uncomfortable with him after he got 00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:13.910 hyper anti-woke. But you know, we need 00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:15.829 that too 00:59:15.839 --> 00:59:18.230 >> uh to evolve. There is evolution is 00:59:18.240 --> 00:59:19.270 messy, 00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:19.990 >> man. 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:21.190 >> And 00:59:21.200 --> 00:59:21.910 >> keep going. Keep going. 00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:23.750 >> Well, and so just

to give like a little 00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:26.950 bit of context to what what else drew me 00:59:26.960 --> 00:59:29.510 to the space is without going into like 00:59:29.520 --> 00:59:31.510 a full-blown 4-hour conversation about 00:59:31.520 --> 00:59:34.390 like what is cultural evolution. 00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:36.950 Maybe we do that at some point. But um 00:59:36.960 --> 00:59:39.190 there there's this idea that that both 00:59:39.200 --> 00:59:43.190 culture and consciousness evolve um 00:59:43.200 --> 00:59:44.950 through 00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:47.829 predictableish stages of development. Um 00:59:47.839 --> 00:59:50.549 we see that in childhood development 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:53.349 like uh there's a lot of science and 00:59:53.359 --> 00:59:57.109 data around that cultural development is 00:59:57.119 --> 01:00:00.549 a little dicey because um I think maybe 01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:03.430 last time we tried to talk about stages 01:00:03.440 --> 01:00:06.230 of development in culture really dark 01:00:06.240 --> 01:00:09.349 stuff kind of resulted and you have like 01:00:09.359 --> 01:00:11.430 certain people are higher than other 01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:15.190 people and don't deserve the same rights 01:00:15.200 --> 01:00:19.589 and um you So that there's some real 01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:23.750 danger in categorizing 01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:26.710 cultures in like this hierarchical 01:00:26.720 --> 01:00:28.230 stage. 01:00:28.240 --> 01:00:31.910 Um but there within this philosophy 01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:33.990 there's this idea that these these kind 01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:37.829 of mimetic value systems 01:00:37.839 --> 01:00:41.190 they solve some problem that's happening 01:00:41.200 --> 01:00:43.910 like traditionalism solved the problems 01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:46.230 of what came before that which was kind 01:00:46.240 --> 01:00:50.390 of a tribal warrior feudal system. It 01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:53.109 allowed like civilization to flourish. 01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:55.670 Um and but then you know that birthed 01:00:55.680 --> 01:00:58.390 its own pathologies and problems that 01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:01.910 modernity came and solved. And then you 01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:05.109 know modernity created its own problems 01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:07.990 of uh 01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:10.870 the industrial kind of revolution and 01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:14.470 and how it tends to just pave over 01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:16.309 everything that [clears throat] is 01:01:16.319 --> 01:01:18.870 living. And that kind of gave birth to 01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:22.230 the progressive postmodern worldview. 01:01:22.240 --> 01:01:25.030 And so this but it doesn't stop with 01:01:25.040 --> 01:01:27.190 progressive postmodernism. And that's 01:01:27.200 --> 01:01:29.109 it. You know, the tendency is to think 01:01:29.119 --> 01:01:31.349 that like my value system is the end of 01:01:31.359 --> 01:01:33.430 evolution. Um [clears throat] 01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:34.549 >> the end of history. 01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:37.670 >> The end of history is me. Um and that's 01:01:37.680 --> 01:01:40.549 just kind of like human. 01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:42.069 >> But so what's coming? What's coming 01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:44.630 next? What's after 01:01:44.640 --> 01:01:48.870 um progressive postmodernism? And you 01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:49.670 know, 01:01:49.680 --> 01:01:51.917 >> is it regressive postmodernism? Is 01:01:51.927 --> 01:01:53.670 [laughter] that word? 01:01:53.680 --> 01:01:55.829 >> Well, maybe we have to go through some 01:01:55.839 --> 01:01:57.670 regressive postmodernism. But 01:01:57.680 --> 01:01:58.870 >> we are actually. 01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:05.030 >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but uh 01:02:05.040 --> 01:02:07.109 what comes after it? Everyone's trying 01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:09.910 to def it seem not everyone actually 01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:11.910 understands this evolutionary progress 01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:13.510 progression. 01:02:13.520 --> 01:02:16.230 Um, but you hear people trying to define 01:02:16.240 --> 01:02:18.069 what's coming next. You know, you hear 01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:21.349 like metamodern, you hear metangelical, 01:02:21.359 --> 01:02:23.190 which is kind of a cool, you know, 01:02:23.200 --> 01:02:27.030 synthesis that Paul came up with. Um, 01:02:27.040 --> 01:02:29.829 you have integral, which is this other 01:02:29.839 --> 01:02:32.630 like new age spiritual 01:02:32.640 --> 01:02:36.950 philosophy that um is what this 01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:38.870 organization kind of came out of. But 01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:40.950 they they they they're actually pushing 01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:43.109 off of that or we we are kind of pushing 01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:47.910 off of this like hyper new age um 01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:50.470 spirituality uh because it's totally 01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:52.230 like not it's just it's become so 01:02:52.240 --> 01:02:57.270 non-dual that like God isn't welcome 01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:01.190 >> and that's uh I just don't I don't 01:03:01.200 --> 01:03:02.630 believe that 01:03:02.640 --> 01:03:04.870 >> you kind of have practicing [snorts] 01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:06.470 Christian is difficult to 01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:08.230 >> Yeah. [laughter] 01:03:08.240 --> 01:03:10.549 But this new this new space and what I 01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:12.630 what I see in the TLC, let me know if we 01:03:12.640 --> 01:03:14.630 need to go. What I see in the TLC is 01:03:14.640 --> 01:03:17.109 like like you hear people using the word 01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:19.510 steel manning all the time. And that's 01:03:19.520 --> 01:03:21.829 like one of these words that's like, oh, 01:03:21.839 --> 01:03:23.750 you're trying to you're actually trying 01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:25.910 to make a case for your opponent, not 01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:28.950 just the weakest possible case so you 01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:31.510 can come out on top, but the best case 01:03:31.520 -->

01:03:32.950 you can actually have like an exchange 01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:35.190 of ideas. 01:03:35.200 --> 01:03:36.470 Do you know the do you know where that 01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:37.990 comes from? 01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:41.029 >> That was birthed. Okay. So, 01:03:41.039 --> 01:03:44.230 uh the intellectual dark web of uh 01:03:44.240 --> 01:03:46.309 Jordan Peterson and the Weinstein 01:03:46.319 --> 01:03:49.029 brothers and Joe Rogan and Ben Shapiro 01:03:49.039 --> 01:03:55.029 and Dave Rubin, you know, like uh people 01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:56.950 in my first conversation with Benjamin 01:03:56.960 --> 01:03:59.029 Boyce, he was like, and I just am sick 01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:01.190 of that word and I still use it even 01:04:01.200 --> 01:04:03.430 though it's cringe. steel man, strong 01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:05.270 man, the argument versus straw man, 01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:06.549 right? You know, 01:04:06.559 --> 01:04:10.230 >> it was in um so Brett Weinstein was 01:04:10.240 --> 01:04:12.630 tasked with mediating the conversation 01:04:12.640 --> 01:04:17.984 between Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris, 01:04:17.994 --> 01:04:18.000 [clears throat] 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:22.870 >> he put that term out into the cultural 01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:24.710 consciousness, 01:04:24.720 --> 01:04:26.870 >> which he put out, I want you to steal 01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:29.109 man Jordan and I want Jordan to steal 01:04:29.119 --> 01:04:31.190 man Sam. Mhm. [clears throat] 01:04:31.200 --> 01:04:33.510 >> And that had not been done in debate bro 01:04:33.520 --> 01:04:36.470 culture with Dawkins and Hitchens. There 01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:39.349 was no steel Manning. It was eviscerate. 01:04:39.359 --> 01:04:39.910 Mhm. 01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:42.470 >> TLC is still carrying this on as there 01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:44.789 comes back into a regression that we you 01:04:44.799 --> 01:04:46.789 know you see online with the 01:04:46.799 --> 01:04:48.710 conversation around Fuentes and 01:04:48.720 --> 01:04:50.630 everything like that coming 01:04:50.640 --> 01:04:54.549 >> and you know there's a new spirit that 01:04:54.559 --> 01:04:57.109 looks a lot like the new atheist spirit 01:04:57.119 --> 01:05:01.190 which is um I remember 01:05:01.200 --> 01:05:02.710 watching all these debates and you know 01:05:02.720 --> 01:05:04.950 having my own questions and doubts and 01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:07.510 all these things but I was like so you 01:05:07.520 --> 01:05:09.589 have basically 01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:11.829 you're offering me to be right. I get to 01:05:11.839 --> 01:05:13.910 be ad hominin. 01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:17.029 That's what I get is. 01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:19.510 And I never liked that. I never felt 01:05:19.520 --> 01:05:21.750 like that was like 01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:25.349 uh worth, you know, losing this 01:05:25.359 --> 01:05:27.029 substrate or whatever. And that's why 01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:28.549 for me Peterson and that whole thing, 01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:30.789 but the steel manning came out of that. 01:05:30.799 --> 01:05:33.109 That was and and Weinstein is still kind 01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:33.990 of 01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:35.990 >> in a sense if you follow him on Twitter 01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:38.150 he's actually still figure trying to 01:05:38.160 --> 01:05:41.510 keep that posture open. 01:05:41.520 --> 01:05:45.270 >> Yeah. I I think so I think steel manning 01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:47.510 is a great 01:05:47.520 --> 01:05:51.670 step in the right direction but it it's 01:05:51.680 --> 01:05:55.349 still kind of stuck in 01:05:55.359 --> 01:05:58.309 um a non-personalist ontology. 01:05:58.319 --> 01:06:00.069 >> Yes. And I think this is this is another 01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:02.549 thing like whenever Luke says something 01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:04.150 like, "Oh, I've read that article 01:06:04.160 --> 01:06:06.549 because we're just like vibrating on the 01:06:06.559 --> 01:06:09.270 same wavelength." But he Luke talks 01:06:09.280 --> 01:06:11.430 about this this term called Star 01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:13.109 Manning, which was 01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:13.670 >> Yeah. 01:06:13.680 --> 01:06:17.430 >> Uh a guy named Angel Eduardo um wrote 01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:20.630 about it on Center for Inquiry. And it's 01:06:20.640 --> 01:06:22.789 basically about 01:06:22.799 --> 01:06:26.710 not just trying to make the best like 01:06:26.720 --> 01:06:28.309 argument, the strongest argument for 01:06:28.319 --> 01:06:30.789 your opponent, but to see your opponent 01:06:30.799 --> 01:06:33.510 as a person with like a context and a 01:06:33.520 --> 01:06:35.430 story and dare I say made in the image 01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:39.510 of God if you want to go there and as 01:06:39.520 --> 01:06:41.270 like 01:06:41.280 --> 01:06:45.670 the child of a mother, you know. And I 01:06:45.680 --> 01:06:48.710 think that's where like the TLC the TLC 01:06:48.720 --> 01:06:51.670 kind of thrives is we've become friends. 01:06:51.680 --> 01:06:53.589 There's there's an element of friendship 01:06:53.599 --> 01:06:57.029 that that transcends 01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:01.670 just pure um propositional 01:07:01.680 --> 01:07:04.309 exchange. 01:07:04.319 --> 01:07:06.630 >> This is this was where my conversation 01:07:06.640 --> 01:07:08.710 with you said you were working way with 01:07:08.720 --> 01:07:11.270 through it with voice but 01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:13.829 >> he's talking about fraternity. 01:07:13.839 --> 01:07:15.829 Um, Neil talks a lot about fraternity 01:07:15.839 --> 01:07:17.589 and of course that has a little bit more 01:07:17.599 --> 01:07:19.430 of a masculine, 01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:22.549 you know, side of that conversation. 01:07:22.559 --> 01:07:26.390 Uh, but the point we kind of got to like 01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:31.211 who gets to star man Nick Fuentes 01:07:31.221 --> 01:07:32.309 [sighs] 01:07:32.319 --> 01:07:37.510 and my so so the question who who sees 01:07:37.520 -->

01:07:40.390 him as a person not Nazi? 01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:41.990 >> Is that appropriate? is that, you know, 01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:44.309 there's a lot, you know, is that okay? 01:07:44.319 --> 01:07:45.430 >> Um, 01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:47.270 >> and then, 01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:49.270 uh, even if he's not starmanning other 01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:51.349 people or whatever, you know, the Jews 01:07:51.359 --> 01:07:53.430 and and whatnot. 01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:56.150 Um, and 01:07:56.160 --> 01:07:58.789 to me 01:07:58.799 --> 01:08:02.549 that that is a is is there enough can 01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:05.029 that posture stretch? How far is it have 01:08:05.039 --> 01:08:06.870 the ability to stretch that, you know, 01:08:06.880 --> 01:08:09.829 or is there a limit to that? 01:08:09.839 --> 01:08:11.829 um 01:08:11.839 --> 01:08:16.309 you know in the kind of 01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:19.030 isish Christian orthodoxy millu that 01:08:19.040 --> 01:08:22.950 this space you know exists in in a way 01:08:22.960 --> 01:08:24.789 and 01:08:24.799 --> 01:08:27.749 yeah so that that is a question and just 01:08:27.759 --> 01:08:30.070 think like 01:08:30.080 --> 01:08:32.070 people like uh this the hot 01:08:32.080 --> 01:08:33.829 conversations with you know Tucker 01:08:33.839 --> 01:08:37.590 Carlson and this is all very had you 01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:39.829 know it just was massively intense on, 01:08:39.839 --> 01:08:42.550 you know, conservative dissident right 01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:46.229 Twitter. But, um, I did see I was 01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:47.749 talking to Cadell last about this and 01:08:47.759 --> 01:08:49.269 there's two things. One is about the 01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:50.950 cultural evolution and the other one is 01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:52.432 about the star manning thing 01:08:52.442 --> 01:08:53.510 [clears throat] 01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:55.910 >> is 01:08:55.920 --> 01:08:58.229 uh I saw two 50-year-olds talk to this 01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:00.229 20 year old and when he start and they 01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:03.189 were calling him out you know on in 01:09:03.199 --> 01:09:05.829 their in their place in their home hey 01:09:05.839 --> 01:09:07.430 if you keep talking like this people 01:09:07.440 --> 01:09:08.630 aren't going to there's going to be a 01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:10.870 limit to what people take you seriously 01:09:10.880 --> 01:09:12.630 or [clears throat] that's not really a 01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:15.189 great view about women and these these 01:09:15.199 --> 01:09:16.870 were men that were saying this to him 01:09:16.880 --> 01:09:18.870 publicly And you know, but 01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:20.550 acknowledging, hey, maybe we agree on 01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:22.630 these things, but you just can't that's 01:09:22.640 --> 01:09:25.110 not going to get you anywhere. And then 01:09:25.120 --> 01:09:26.870 uh 01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:30.390 the other piece of it was I like his 01:09:30.400 --> 01:09:33.749 origin story is a lot like

Harry Potter 01:09:33.759 --> 01:09:35.990 or Voldemort. And it's who do you want 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:37.749 who do you want to create? Or maybe has 01:09:37.759 --> 01:09:39.590 he already is he too far from 01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:42.709 redemption? Is he already Voldemort? 01:09:42.719 --> 01:09:45.510 Um or is there a chance for redemption? 01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:47.030 I don't know. 01:09:47.040 --> 01:09:50.950 Um, but it's like, you know, the sorting 01:09:50.960 --> 01:09:54.070 hat. Is he's gonna is he just Slytherin? 01:09:54.080 --> 01:09:56.070 You know, is it like or does he have a 01:09:56.080 --> 01:09:57.669 chance to become brave? I don't know. 01:09:57.679 --> 01:10:00.149 Maybe he's too old. Maybe it's too far. 01:10:00.159 --> 01:10:00.550 But 01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:03.350 >> well, I'm a Universalist, so I don't 01:10:03.360 --> 01:10:05.189 think anyone's too far from redemption 01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:08.550 >> from ultimate redemption. Uh, but yeah. 01:10:08.560 --> 01:10:10.790 Well, okay. in, you know, in the in the 01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:13.510 in the already, but not [laughter] yet. 01:10:13.520 --> 01:10:17.270 >> But so then the other piece is this uh 01:10:17.280 --> 01:10:20.390 this cultural evolution. 01:10:20.400 --> 01:10:22.390 >> So I came across this guy on Elliot 01:10:22.400 --> 01:10:24.950 Betwick's podcast. He's a young zoomer 01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:28.550 in the UK that's kind of doing this um 01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:31.189 uh he's trying to do Chris Williamson 01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:34.149 like that's his that he's trying to do 01:10:34.159 --> 01:10:37.030 high production like sharp questioning 01:10:37.040 --> 01:10:38.550 and 01:10:38.560 --> 01:10:40.229 workout bro and all this stuff he's 01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:41.910 British 01:10:41.920 --> 01:10:43.430 >> and he was talking to kind of this 01:10:43.440 --> 01:10:45.669 nationalist guy and he said because this 01:10:45.679 --> 01:10:47.189 whole question about identity that we're 01:10:47.199 --> 01:10:51.990 circling around and um and he gave a you 01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:53.430 know a covenantal 01:10:53.440 --> 01:10:55.669 view of identity 01:10:55.679 --> 01:10:58.870 which uh talking about that ev cultural 01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:01.910 evolution and we get so much of this 01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:06.229 outlined from the Hebrew scripture which 01:11:06.239 --> 01:11:10.390 is there's the person Adam always in 01:11:10.400 --> 01:11:11.990 initially in relationship to the vine so 01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:13.669 he's never an individual he's always a 01:11:13.679 --> 01:11:16.149 person and then you have the marriage 01:11:16.159 --> 01:11:18.470 covenant between Adam and Eve and then 01:11:18.480 --> 01:11:21.189 you have the covenant uh the noatic 01:11:21.199 --> 01:11:23.669 covenant which is about the household 01:11:23.679 --> 01:11:25.990 and then you have the tribal covenant 01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:28.709 with Abraham and then you have the

the 01:11:28.719 --> 01:11:30.630 covenant of nation with Moses and then 01:11:30.640 --> 01:11:32.149 you have the covenant of kingdom with 01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:34.709 David and then ultimately the covenant 01:11:34.719 --> 01:11:37.030 of the church in Christ. 01:11:37.040 --> 01:11:38.870 >> And that we actually don't lose any of 01:11:38.880 --> 01:11:40.870 those identities. [clears throat] 01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:42.630 >> But it sounds like a little bit of the 01:11:42.640 --> 01:11:44.149 conversation about like the evolution is 01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:45.990 like well we don't we're beyond 01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:47.590 kingdoms. we're, you know, now you have 01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:49.110 all these people talking about return to 01:11:49.120 --> 01:11:51.830 monarchy or we're beyond or now we, you 01:11:51.840 --> 01:11:53.030 know, then there's the Christian 01:11:53.040 --> 01:11:55.669 nationalists and um and then you have 01:11:55.679 --> 01:11:58.870 like tribal stuff like and it's and 01:11:58.880 --> 01:12:01.990 everyone's pointing at these things like 01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:03.350 um you know, we're beyond that, we're 01:12:03.360 --> 01:12:04.870 beyond that. I feel like we're all of 01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:07.750 it. I feel like we're still all of it 01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:10.070 and that we do like it and it's actually 01:12:10.080 --> 01:12:11.830 that we're doing something. There's like 01:12:11.840 --> 01:12:14.630 a a spell like the Charles Taylor spell 01:12:14.640 --> 01:12:17.270 of secularity that says there's no more 01:12:17.280 --> 01:12:19.030 kingdoms, 01:12:19.040 --> 01:12:21.189 there's no more tribes, we're all in 01:12:21.199 --> 01:12:23.345 this seculum. And then we 01:12:23.355 --> 01:12:24.550 [clears throat] kind of go around 01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:25.910 pretending like these things don't 01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:29.350 exist, you know. Um, 01:12:29.360 --> 01:12:31.030 and then there's a nation, you know, 01:12:31.040 --> 01:12:32.470 every nation, tribe, and tug. Talk about 01:12:32.480 --> 01:12:34.550 that. What is that escaton? 01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:37.430 Like the nations still exist in the 01:12:37.440 --> 01:12:39.430 escaton. Um, 01:12:39.440 --> 01:12:41.910 >> at least in that thing. So 01:12:41.920 --> 01:12:45.990 >> yeah. Yeah. The I mean you're you're 01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:49.669 kind of describing the a developmental 01:12:49.679 --> 01:12:51.830 understanding. Maybe you're not thinking 01:12:51.840 --> 01:12:53.590 of it in terms of development exactly, 01:12:53.600 --> 01:12:56.870 but it's like these different 01:12:56.880 --> 01:12:57.510 >> identity 01:12:57.520 --> 01:13:00.709 >> domains of identity are stacked on top 01:13:00.719 --> 01:13:01.830 of each other, 01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:02.229 >> right? 01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:05.350 >> And rely on each other. So like 01:13:05.360 --> 01:13:07.830 modernity relies on traditionalism which 01:13:07.840 --> 01:13:13.350 relies on this tribal system and 01:13:13.360 --> 01:13:15.430 progressive postmodernity relies on 01:13:15.440 --> 01:13:18.070 modernity even though it's it's pushing 01:13:18.080 --> 01:13:21.750 off against modernity. Um 01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:25.910 and if as things unravel it will unravel 01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:29.270 to the next like most stable point. And 01:13:29.280 --> 01:13:31.270 you know, I I feel like the 01:13:31.280 --> 01:13:32.790 traditionalists 01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:35.030 want everything to just unravel back to 01:13:35.040 --> 01:13:37.990 like 1950 or you know, [laughter] 01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:40.149 the when when uh there's a little bit 01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:45.910 more of uh acceptance and uh there was 01:13:45.920 --> 01:13:48.630 the the tendrils of of traditionalism 01:13:48.640 --> 01:13:52.426 had a little more power in the culture. 01:13:52.436 --> 01:13:55.350 [snorts] Um 01:13:55.360 --> 01:13:56.229 I don't know where I was going with 01:13:56.239 --> 01:13:58.470 that. Well, is this I wonder if there's 01:13:58.480 --> 01:14:01.430 a I 01:14:01.440 --> 01:14:03.430 just that these 01:14:03.440 --> 01:14:06.950 I don't know if I'm like in that there's 01:14:06.960 --> 01:14:09.350 like I think that you could look at as a 01:14:09.360 --> 01:14:11.110 person you could look at those different 01:14:11.120 --> 01:14:12.790 covenantal identities and you could 01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:15.430 actually find that they all exist right 01:14:15.440 --> 01:14:16.470 now 01:14:16.480 --> 01:14:18.070 >> in you like [clears throat] as a person 01:14:18.080 --> 01:14:20.229 okay a Christian as a husband to my wife 01:14:20.239 --> 01:14:23.830 as a father to my family as uh in what's 01:14:23.840 --> 01:14:26.229 my tribe like is this my friends is this 01:14:26.239 --> 01:14:27.830 my kind of local church. Is this the 01:14:27.840 --> 01:14:29.350 corner of the internet? Is that my 01:14:29.360 --> 01:14:30.550 tribe? 01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:32.149 >> And uh you know, someone actually put me 01:14:32.159 --> 01:14:34.310 in their tribe on Twitter one time, you 01:14:34.320 --> 01:14:35.590 know. Uh 01:14:35.600 --> 01:14:38.310 >> and then and then Okay. And then well, 01:14:38.320 --> 01:14:42.149 what's my nation? Okay. Am I Aran inside 01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:44.310 of the nation of the United States? And 01:14:44.320 --> 01:14:46.070 >> and is there a kingdom? Is that the 01:14:46.080 --> 01:14:47.110 West? 01:14:47.120 --> 01:14:48.709 >> And what's the church? Is the church 01:14:48.719 --> 01:14:50.229 like all of a sudden it's like you have 01:14:50.239 --> 01:14:51.669 this thing, this meta thing that then 01:14:51.679 --> 01:14:52.870 goes all the way down through all of 01:14:52.880 --> 01:14:56.390 them and all the way back up. um at the 01:14:56.400 --> 01:14:59.750 very top it infiltrates all of them. 01:14:59.760 --> 01:15:00.390 >> Yeah. 01:15:00.400 --> 01:15:02.310 >> And but that they all exist like right 01:15:02.320 -->

01:15:05.110 now is 01:15:05.120 --> 01:15:06.310 I've been thinking about 01:15:06.320 --> 01:15:08.390 >> Well, okay. So, that's an interesting 01:15:08.400 --> 01:15:12.950 thought. Did um like I I would say that 01:15:12.960 --> 01:15:15.189 that they 01:15:15.199 --> 01:15:18.070 within time 01:15:18.080 --> 01:15:21.030 they all exist to the point that they've 01:15:21.040 --> 01:15:24.950 evolved within that time frame. So like 01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:27.990 300 years ago, I wouldn't say that they 01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:29.750 all existed. 01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:33.990 Um maybe in some sort of potential, but 01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:36.310 progressive postmodernism, which I 01:15:36.320 --> 01:15:39.189 believe is an actual kind of value 01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:40.709 system that has its own form of 01:15:40.719 --> 01:15:43.350 goodness, truth, and beauty, 01:15:43.360 --> 01:15:47.510 >> wasn't it? It it hadn't like 01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:49.430 there weren't even really like echoes of 01:15:49.440 --> 01:15:50.390 it. 01:15:50.400 --> 01:15:52.229 >> Yeah. then and because we didn't have 01:15:52.239 --> 01:15:53.750 the technology to connect the entire 01:15:53.760 --> 01:15:55.030 world. I mean, part of progressive 01:15:55.040 --> 01:15:56.630 postmodernism is this like 01:15:56.640 --> 01:15:57.110 >> global 01:15:57.120 --> 01:15:59.030 >> this the global understanding that we're 01:15:59.040 --> 01:16:01.430 all like a human race that deserves 01:16:01.440 --> 01:16:03.350 rights and including the trees and the 01:16:03.360 --> 01:16:04.550 birds 01:16:04.560 --> 01:16:09.669 >> and [clears throat] um 01:16:09.679 --> 01:16:11.350 >> well yeah and that's an interesting 01:16:11.360 --> 01:16:15.669 thing about the even so every person has 01:16:15.679 --> 01:16:17.350 dignity 01:16:17.360 --> 01:16:20.070 what identifies that under you know the 01:16:20.080 --> 01:16:23.510 abago day or God's creation right and 01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:26.550 And but that can 01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:29.750 how does that propagate globally like 01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:32.709 what is the and and there is this like 01:16:32.719 --> 01:16:36.229 the church like Catholic you know 01:16:36.239 --> 01:16:39.430 something universal something global in 01:16:39.440 --> 01:16:44.390 that way um but that's not globalism 01:16:44.400 --> 01:16:47.030 you know like uh 01:16:47.040 --> 01:16:50.470 so yeah I don't know but that I I just 01:16:50.480 --> 01:16:53.270 have kind of wondered like I still think 01:16:53.280 --> 01:16:55.270 that we operate 01:16:55.280 --> 01:16:59.030 in these fractals of identity kind of 01:16:59.040 --> 01:17:02.790 outlined in that uh 01:17:02.800 --> 01:17:06.070 kind of biblical meta narrative 01:17:06.080 --> 01:17:08.229 and that even though we don't call 01:17:08.239 --> 01:17:10.310 something a kingdom or even though we 01:17:10.320 --> 01:17:11.750 were like oh we can't just be 01:17:11.760 --> 01:17:14.550 nationalistic or like

we can't be we 01:17:14.560 --> 01:17:17.189 can't do nationalism again but it's like 01:17:17.199 --> 01:17:19.350 I think we have we are always doing 01:17:19.360 --> 01:17:21.830 nationalism but it's at it's at a 01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:23.270 certain 01:17:23.280 --> 01:17:25.830 thing. It's It's happening. We're always 01:17:25.840 --> 01:17:26.229 doing 01:17:26.239 --> 01:17:27.189 >> Yes. 01:17:27.199 --> 01:17:29.990 >> empire or kingdom at a certain point and 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.390 we're always doing tribal stuff and 01:17:32.400 --> 01:17:36.149 we're always ourselves too um in 01:17:36.159 --> 01:17:37.910 relationship to all those things. 01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:40.390 >> Yeah. 01:17:40.400 --> 01:17:43.510 But I don't think we can do nationalism 01:17:43.520 --> 01:17:45.990 in the same way because 01:17:46.000 --> 01:17:48.390 >> it's it's it's a new it's a new 01:17:48.400 --> 01:17:52.709 synthesis that somehow um includes now 01:17:52.719 --> 01:17:56.310 just even the awareness of like a person 01:17:56.320 --> 01:17:57.750 on the other side of the globe that I 01:17:57.760 --> 01:17:59.110 can talk to instantly. 01:17:59.120 --> 01:17:59.669 >> Yeah. 01:17:59.679 --> 01:18:02.790 >> Um is created something a new type of 01:18:02.800 --> 01:18:06.070 nationalism. Um, and when you ask like 01:18:06.080 --> 01:18:09.270 how does this propagate, 01:18:09.280 --> 01:18:11.350 I think it's like it's going to 01:18:11.360 --> 01:18:13.990 propagate in a different a different 01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:16.390 way. I think before it was through kind 01:18:16.400 --> 01:18:18.470 of force and bloodshed 01:18:18.480 --> 01:18:23.270 >> and now I think it's through more of a 01:18:23.280 --> 01:18:25.590 process and I think this is like the 01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:29.430 estuary model is like so interesting to 01:18:29.440 --> 01:18:31.510 me and I talked a little bit about this 01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:37.110 in my um what was it my fixed toflow 01:18:37.120 --> 01:18:38.950 estuary fence. 01:18:38.960 --> 01:18:41.110 >> Oh yeah yeah yeah. you know, I I I think 01:18:41.120 --> 01:18:43.030 in diagrams. So, I like had a bunch of 01:18:43.040 --> 01:18:45.030 little drawings that I made for this. 01:18:45.040 --> 01:18:48.950 But but this estuary 01:18:48.960 --> 01:18:53.510 protocol, the pitch point play creates, 01:18:53.520 --> 01:18:56.390 it's kind of like this little package of 01:18:56.400 --> 01:18:59.189 integrated worldviews. Like it has this 01:18:59.199 --> 01:19:02.550 structure which is which I kind of um 01:19:02.560 --> 01:19:05.750 connect to the traditional it like it 01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:07.990 fences in this area that keeps the 01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:11.510 wolves out. So there's some safety in 01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:15.030 there. And then um the [clears throat] 01:19:15.040 --> 01:19:17.910 the that's kind of like the rules and 01:19:17.920 --> 01:19:20.630 the facilitated part and um just the 01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:22.790 structure itself like starting and 01:19:22.800 --> 01:19:25.510 ending on time. And then there's the 01:19:25.520 --> 01:19:28.470 modern the the pointing part which I I 01:19:28.480 --> 01:19:31.590 associate with um kind of like survival 01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:33.430 of the fittest. 01:19:33.440 --> 01:19:35.510 uh you know there's a survival of the 01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:37.750 fittest within estuary conversations 01:19:37.760 --> 01:19:39.669 where the person with the most juicy 01:19:39.679 --> 01:19:43.270 salient idea kind of wins and then um 01:19:43.280 --> 01:19:45.669 but everyone also gets their voices 01:19:45.679 --> 01:19:48.310 heard so that's very much like 01:19:48.320 --> 01:19:50.709 everyone's story matters progressive 01:19:50.719 --> 01:19:52.390 postmodern for sure 01:19:52.400 --> 01:19:54.070 >> and then the whole thing this kind of 01:19:54.080 --> 01:19:55.910 playful integration of all of them I 01:19:55.920 --> 01:19:57.910 associate with 01:19:57.920 --> 01:20:01.189 >> kind of this developmental integral meta 01:20:01.199 --> 01:20:03.270 whatever we're calling it It's it's 01:20:03.280 --> 01:20:05.510 synthesizing it all into this little 01:20:05.520 --> 01:20:09.055 process that I think could spread. 01:20:09.065 --> 01:20:09.270 [sighs] 01:20:09.280 --> 01:20:12.149 >> Do you think I mean how do you see it 01:20:12.159 --> 01:20:13.990 right now? like from your vantage point 01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:16.630 like coming in and noticing [snorts] 01:20:16.640 --> 01:20:18.709 that you know the people that have been 01:20:18.719 --> 01:20:20.390 in for a long time have gone to a few 01:20:20.400 --> 01:20:23.750 quoteunquote estuary uh conferences and 01:20:23.760 --> 01:20:25.430 then coming in like at the big you know 01:20:25.440 --> 01:20:27.510 at the biggest point it's been I guess 01:20:27.520 --> 01:20:29.189 that was your first participate my first 01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:31.430 participation into the you know Midwest 01:20:31.440 --> 01:20:32.950 estuary 01:20:32.960 --> 01:20:37.110 >> um like do you do you see that it still 01:20:37.120 --> 01:20:39.270 has some 01:20:39.280 --> 01:20:42.390 juice or some ump for the going forward 01:20:42.400 --> 01:20:43.830 or do you think it's I mean what are 01:20:43.840 --> 01:20:46.630 your what's your perspective on that? 01:20:46.640 --> 01:20:50.790 >> Yeah, the Midwestary was 01:20:50.800 --> 01:20:52.470 really 01:20:52.480 --> 01:20:55.910 powerful for me to 01:20:55.920 --> 01:20:58.310 kind of funnel all of this. Sorry, I'm 01:20:58.320 --> 01:21:00.709 used to like seeing myself in the full 01:21:00.719 --> 01:21:02.709 screen. So, I have my hands up. I'm 01:21:02.719 --> 01:21:04.149 constantly using my hands, but you can't 01:21:04.159 --> 01:21:04.790 see them. 01:21:04.800 --> 01:21:06.709 >> You have to you have to get them in. So 01:21:06.719 --> 01:21:12.070 this funnel, this funnel of of um all 01:21:12.080 --> 01:21:17.910 these kind

of disembodied relationships 01:21:17.920 --> 01:21:21.030 like suddenly 01:21:21.040 --> 01:21:23.030 um [clears throat] 01:21:23.040 --> 01:21:25.750 like like the inside of a chrysalis, 01:21:25.760 --> 01:21:27.990 whatever happens between the 01:21:28.000 --> 01:21:32.070 >> caterpillar turning into a butterfly. Um 01:21:32.080 --> 01:21:39.430 this gestalt moment. um was profound 01:21:39.440 --> 01:21:42.790 for me because it it was just confirming 01:21:42.800 --> 01:21:44.630 like this is real. There's something 01:21:44.640 --> 01:21:46.550 actually real happening here and the 01:21:46.560 --> 01:21:49.430 internet is real. It's 01:21:49.440 --> 01:21:52.310 um it's part of this like 01:21:52.320 --> 01:21:53.510 >> economy. 01:21:53.520 --> 01:21:54.470 >> Yeah. 01:21:54.480 --> 01:21:58.310 >> And there's dignity in it because 01:21:58.320 --> 01:22:01.030 >> real friendships are happening. there's 01:22:01.040 --> 01:22:03.350 this process of moving from out of the 01:22:03.360 --> 01:22:08.229 lurk into seeing and being seen and 01:22:08.239 --> 01:22:11.430 waking up, you know. Um like all of 01:22:11.440 --> 01:22:13.830 these things people are growing through 01:22:13.840 --> 01:22:18.149 it and um 01:22:18.159 --> 01:22:19.350 >> did you say you were starting an 01:22:19.360 --> 01:22:20.629 estuary? 01:22:20.639 --> 01:22:22.390 >> Yes. Okay. Yeah. So, this is another 01:22:22.400 --> 01:22:27.750 part of this evolution [gasps] is uh I 01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:30.390 my buddy Jared, who you may have run 01:22:30.400 --> 01:22:32.229 across out on the internet, he's kind of 01:22:32.239 --> 01:22:35.430 like in the last few years has become a 01:22:35.440 --> 01:22:37.910 little bit of an internet god. 01:22:37.920 --> 01:22:39.270 >> Philosophy bro. 01:22:39.280 --> 01:22:41.910 >> Philosophy bro. Yeah. Jared Henderson. 01:22:41.920 --> 01:22:44.470 Um he 01:22:44.480 --> 01:22:47.189 he was like, "Tell me about this Paul 01:22:47.199 --> 01:22:48.709 Vanderlay." 01:22:48.719 --> 01:22:50.550 I think I had actually been pitching him 01:22:50.560 --> 01:22:53.270 on it and then finally he 01:22:53.280 --> 01:22:55.189 watched some of his stuff or maybe the 01:22:55.199 --> 01:22:56.950 algo 01:22:56.960 --> 01:23:00.790 found him [laughter] 01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:03.110 doing bless God bless the algo. 01:23:03.120 --> 01:23:07.750 >> God bless the algo. Uh and so he was 01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:09.510 like what if what if we started one of 01:23:09.520 --> 01:23:12.070 these estuary groups? We kind of had 01:23:12.080 --> 01:23:13.990 this the idea I think at the same time 01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:17.110 and I was like yes um but let's not do 01:23:17.120 --> 01:23:19.189 it at our church because it'll just turn 01:23:19.199 --> 01:23:22.709 into like an orthob bro like 01:23:22.719 --> 01:23:25.030 place and I I think the the secret is 01:23:25.040 --> 01:23:29.189 actually finding a diversity of opinions 01:23:29.199 --> 01:23:33.430 which I think is an art in itself. Um, 01:23:33.440 --> 01:23:36.470 so, uh, we happen to both have a friend 01:23:36.480 --> 01:23:39.510 who is an Episcopal priest and a little 01:23:39.520 --> 01:23:43.110 bit closer into town into Austin and he 01:23:43.120 --> 01:23:47.990 agreed to, um, host it. And so, [gasps] 01:23:48.000 --> 01:23:50.070 you know, we had our first one last 01:23:50.080 --> 01:23:52.629 month in October and it was just the 01:23:52.639 --> 01:23:55.688 three of us plus my neighbor. Um, and 01:23:55.698 --> 01:23:56.310 [clears throat] 01:23:56.320 --> 01:23:59.110 now we have another one tomorrow. 01:23:59.120 --> 01:24:01.350 >> Okay. which it will have already passed, 01:24:01.360 --> 01:24:03.750 I'm sure, by the time this comes out. 01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:09.110 But, um, we have 14 people RSVPd on the 01:24:09.120 --> 01:24:10.229 Eventbrite. 01:24:10.239 --> 01:24:14.149 >> We'll see if if like if we get three new 01:24:14.159 --> 01:24:18.709 people out of it, I'll be very excited. 01:24:18.719 --> 01:24:21.189 Well, how I mean so it's like you know 01:24:21.199 --> 01:24:23.510 local Facebook kind of stuff the ad like 01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:26.550 how how you know word of mouth with just 01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:28.790 >> Yeah, I I tried post there's there's 01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:31.270 like a Discord for Texas. I tried 01:24:31.280 --> 01:24:32.950 posting on there but there's not really 01:24:32.960 --> 01:24:36.470 much activity in the Austin 01:24:36.480 --> 01:24:40.390 channel. So I haven't actually uh none 01:24:40.400 --> 01:24:43.750 of the TLC folk from Austin have shown 01:24:43.760 --> 01:24:45.189 showed up to the first one. I don't know 01:24:45.199 --> 01:24:48.629 if they will um to the next one, but I 01:24:48.639 --> 01:24:52.070 just put it out on Facebook. I put it 01:24:52.080 --> 01:24:55.910 out on Eventbrite. I'm like I'm I'm 01:24:55.920 --> 01:24:58.470 trying not to seed it too much with my 01:24:58.480 --> 01:25:01.430 own friends. 01:25:01.440 --> 01:25:04.310 >> But it may come to that, you know. 01:25:04.320 --> 01:25:05.669 >> It may come to that. 01:25:05.679 --> 01:25:07.750 >> May come to that. I [snorts] mean I, you 01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:09.430 know, I want like people coming in off 01:25:09.440 --> 01:25:11.590 the street like give me some 01:25:11.600 --> 01:25:15.750 conversation. Well, I think so the kind 01:25:15.760 --> 01:25:19.510 of the the original 01:25:19.520 --> 01:25:21.110 thing that happened were quote unquote 01:25:21.120 --> 01:25:23.430 Jordan Peterson meetup groups 01:25:23.440 --> 01:25:25.270 >> because 01:25:25.280 --> 01:25:27.030 people were looking for a place to talk 01:25:27.040 --> 01:25:28.629 about this guy without getting cancelled 01:25:28.639 --> 01:25:32.310 or being thought weird. And so to me 01:25:32.320 --> 01:25:35.110 there's kind of a there's the version of 01:25:35.120 --> 01:25:38.709 it that is like divorced from

01:25:38.719 --> 01:25:41.030 where attention is at or something where 01:25:41.040 --> 01:25:43.750 it's like can we find something that can 01:25:43.760 --> 01:25:48.550 we foster something that where it exists 01:25:48.560 --> 01:25:50.629 on its own 01:25:50.639 --> 01:25:53.910 or is there a meta conversation that I'm 01:25:53.920 --> 01:25:57.750 trying to have that I can't have 01:25:57.760 --> 01:25:59.990 >> um or I don't feel like I know where to 01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:02.149 have that conversation and I feel like 01:26:02.159 --> 01:26:04.149 that's a little bit I I've kind of have 01:26:04.159 --> 01:26:06.229 this thesis I mean it's not a thesis but 01:26:06.239 --> 01:26:07.910 like is there a difference between this 01:26:07.920 --> 01:26:09.430 little corner and estuary and I think 01:26:09.440 --> 01:26:13.030 this little corner is is 01:26:13.040 --> 01:26:16.229 internet and estuary is meat space the 01:26:16.239 --> 01:26:18.229 question is 01:26:18.239 --> 01:26:21.590 can do they have their own 01:26:21.600 --> 01:26:26.709 telos that is different and um I don't 01:26:26.719 --> 01:26:33.189 know like um can it be divorced from its 01:26:33.199 --> 01:26:35.669 ontology or its development and 01:26:35.679 --> 01:26:37.270 creation, I guess, is my is the question 01:26:37.280 --> 01:26:40.390 I feel like I'm I'm wondering about. Um, 01:26:40.400 --> 01:26:42.470 and 01:26:42.480 --> 01:26:44.390 uh 01:26:44.400 --> 01:26:46.149 how much of those things are are at 01:26:46.159 --> 01:26:47.910 play? I just don't know because I know 01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:49.270 that at some point like I mean there 01:26:49.280 --> 01:26:51.350 were like big nonfor-profit people 01:26:51.360 --> 01:26:52.709 wanting to use Paul like they were 01:26:52.719 --> 01:26:54.390 asking for it to like license it or 01:26:54.400 --> 01:26:55.990 something from Paul or you know so it 01:26:56.000 --> 01:26:58.229 has some utility. 01:26:58.239 --> 01:27:01.430 Yeah. No, I mean I I I've had this idea 01:27:01.440 --> 01:27:05.270 of um actually 01:27:05.280 --> 01:27:07.510 >> sprinkling estuary conversations into 01:27:07.520 --> 01:27:10.470 our monthly meetup group through the 01:27:10.480 --> 01:27:12.709 institute because u we usually have 01:27:12.719 --> 01:27:14.629 guest speakers come in and it just turns 01:27:14.639 --> 01:27:17.430 into guest speaker QA and then we're 01:27:17.440 --> 01:27:20.390 out. But everyone, you know, we have 01:27:20.400 --> 01:27:23.189 anywhere from 50 to 70 people showing up 01:27:23.199 --> 01:27:24.709 and it would be like a perfect 01:27:24.719 --> 01:27:27.990 environment for a few breakout rooms and 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:29.830 just doing kind of an estuary style 01:27:29.840 --> 01:27:30.950 conversation. 01:27:30.960 --> 01:27:33.510 >> Yeah. My wife was at a workshop for her 01:27:33.520 --> 01:27:35.990 school. Uh she's in school to be a 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:38.870 therapist and it was digital, but they

01:27:38.880 --> 01:27:40.390 then were like, "Okay, here's the topic 01:27:40.400 --> 01:27:42.709 that they're the the what thing that 01:27:42.719 --> 01:27:44.550 there actually it was EMDR they were 01:27:44.560 --> 01:27:45.030 looking at." 01:27:45.040 --> 01:27:48.310 >> Okay. And then uh they had breakout 01:27:48.320 --> 01:27:50.229 groups and then the host would like jump 01:27:50.239 --> 01:27:52.310 into those every now and then, but then 01:27:52.320 --> 01:27:53.750 he was checking on all the little 01:27:53.760 --> 01:27:56.470 classrooms, you know? So like it seems 01:27:56.480 --> 01:27:58.310 like that is possible. You can create 01:27:58.320 --> 01:28:00.310 those, you know, we're going to do this 01:28:00.320 --> 01:28:03.270 and I don't know. I wonder I mean I 01:28:03.280 --> 01:28:07.110 wonder if estruary and TLC are just I'm 01:28:07.120 --> 01:28:08.629 thinking of like a [clears throat] 01:28:08.639 --> 01:28:12.870 toroidal like this shape where you have 01:28:12.880 --> 01:28:16.070 like these these forces kind of coming 01:28:16.080 --> 01:28:19.189 together in this mystical middle and 01:28:19.199 --> 01:28:22.550 it's like the the estuary and the TLC 01:28:22.560 --> 01:28:24.390 are 01:28:24.400 --> 01:28:26.709 they kind of support each other. 01:28:26.719 --> 01:28:29.189 >> Yeah. Um, [clears throat] 01:28:29.199 --> 01:28:33.510 and and it's it's non like it's it's not 01:28:33.520 --> 01:28:35.830 doesn't have a a creed or a doctrine. 01:28:35.840 --> 01:28:38.310 So, it's not a church. It's like it's 01:28:38.320 --> 01:28:41.750 like a process that just helps us exist 01:28:41.760 --> 01:28:45.270 in this 01:28:45.280 --> 01:28:48.229 fragmented world where that's we're 01:28:48.239 --> 01:28:50.229 living in a post-truth 01:28:50.239 --> 01:28:52.550 kind of space. And and what what's 01:28:52.560 --> 01:28:54.470 interesting is 01:28:54.480 --> 01:28:56.229 >> I've 01:28:56.239 --> 01:28:57.669 kind of [snorts] 01:28:57.679 --> 01:29:03.910 um I've snuck in estuary protocol into 01:29:03.920 --> 01:29:07.189 some conversations I have with some 01:29:07.199 --> 01:29:09.350 people at my church who I would put on 01:29:09.360 --> 01:29:11.189 like the very conservative side of the 01:29:11.199 --> 01:29:14.070 spectrum. And 01:29:14.080 --> 01:29:16.550 I feel like 01:29:16.560 --> 01:29:18.470 they really like it. 01:29:18.480 --> 01:29:19.430 >> Mhm. 01:29:19.440 --> 01:29:23.510 um because they're just they're not 01:29:23.520 --> 01:29:25.510 backed into their corner. Like it turns 01:29:25.520 --> 01:29:28.550 out we have actually a lot more in 01:29:28.560 --> 01:29:30.790 common. Even though we can't agree on a 01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:32.870 single news source, we even tried it. I 01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:35.030 tried to create a shared Google doc with 01:29:35.040 --> 01:29:37.910 like let's let's pitch each other like 01:29:37.920 --> 01:29:41.910 five news sources and see if any of them 01:29:41.920

--> 01:29:44.229 are like like let's rank them on, you 01:29:44.239 --> 01:29:45.669 know, a scale of like one to five 01:29:45.679 --> 01:29:48.229 credibility. And like all of mine were 01:29:48.239 --> 01:29:50.470 he ranked all mine as one and I ranked 01:29:50.480 --> 01:29:53.189 all of his as one. But the only one that 01:29:53.199 --> 01:29:55.189 was like this was a couple years that we 01:29:55.199 --> 01:29:57.430 tried this. The the only one that was 01:29:57.440 --> 01:29:58.950 like 01:29:58.960 --> 01:30:01.590 kind of murky middle was Bill Mayer 01:30:01.600 --> 01:30:03.990 because he makes fun of everyone or Bill 01:30:04.000 --> 01:30:04.709 Maher. Yeah, 01:30:04.719 --> 01:30:07.750 >> Bill Maher. Sorry, my brain. Yeah, he's 01:30:07.760 --> 01:30:09.669 he's done something kind of interesting, 01:30:09.679 --> 01:30:11.990 you know, the the the 01:30:12.000 --> 01:30:15.030 plays that he's made and kind of being 01:30:15.040 --> 01:30:17.510 sec in a certain in a in a certain way 01:30:17.520 --> 01:30:19.669 like second or third tier intellectual 01:30:19.679 --> 01:30:22.709 dark webish kind of like he you know he 01:30:22.719 --> 01:30:24.149 kind of came around to certain things 01:30:24.159 --> 01:30:25.910 that he was critical of, but he keeps 01:30:25.920 --> 01:30:28.229 the door open and people keep coming on 01:30:28.239 --> 01:30:30.229 his show like there's a culture that he 01:30:30.239 --> 01:30:33.189 has left and right that he that's 01:30:33.199 --> 01:30:35.830 really, you know, unique I think um and 01:30:35.840 --> 01:30:39.172 what he's been able kind of hold on to 01:30:39.182 --> 01:30:40.950 [clears throat] all this stuff. 01:30:40.960 --> 01:30:42.390 >> Um 01:30:42.400 --> 01:30:44.310 >> that's that makes sense. But the 01:30:44.320 --> 01:30:46.070 sprinkling estuary into those kind of 01:30:46.080 --> 01:30:47.830 conversations get I wonder when you're 01:30:47.840 --> 01:30:49.350 saying that like the part of whatever 01:30:49.360 --> 01:30:52.709 may be the makeup of the conservativeish 01:30:52.719 --> 01:30:53.990 person 01:30:54.000 --> 01:30:55.030 >> is [clears throat] fact that there's 01:30:55.040 --> 01:30:57.189 some structure 01:30:57.199 --> 01:30:59.669 related to it the process that feels 01:30:59.679 --> 01:31:00.790 like yeah there's a little bit of 01:31:00.800 --> 01:31:02.950 control here there's a little bit of 01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:05.110 >> you know form that I can you know but 01:31:05.120 --> 01:31:06.470 yet 01:31:06.480 --> 01:31:07.669 >> the [snorts] person that likes lots of 01:31:07.679 --> 01:31:09.270 ideas is like oh there's lots of ideas 01:31:09.280 --> 01:31:10.870 here you know 01:31:10.880 --> 01:31:15.750 >> that it does kind of capture a uh 01:31:15.760 --> 01:31:18.870 you know something agreeable for people 01:31:18.880 --> 01:31:23.430 from different kind of uh dispositions 01:31:23.440 --> 01:31:24.950 related. 01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:28.149 >> Yeah. Well, I I have yet to be in a 01:31:28.159 --> 01:31:30.229 situation where I I really have people 01:31:30.239 --> 01:31:34.070 coming at it from total opposite 01:31:34.080 --> 01:31:36.709 points of view. Like I've usually played 01:31:36.719 --> 01:31:39.030 the role of the opposite for whatever 01:31:39.040 --> 01:31:41.430 kind of context I'm in. So, like if I'm 01:31:41.440 --> 01:31:43.910 in a very, 01:31:43.920 --> 01:31:45.910 you know, more liberal place, I'm going 01:31:45.920 --> 01:31:48.603 to be playing the um kind of 01:31:48.613 --> 01:31:50.390 [clears throat] the conservative. And 01:31:50.400 --> 01:31:53.189 then if I'm going to if I'm in a very 01:31:53.199 --> 01:31:54.790 conservative place, I'm going to be 01:31:54.800 --> 01:31:56.950 playing the liberal. Which, by the way, 01:31:56.960 --> 01:31:59.669 I have to say, I just had this this kind 01:31:59.679 --> 01:32:01.510 of 01:32:01.520 --> 01:32:04.229 revelation after this fall festival 01:32:04.239 --> 01:32:07.510 where we had, you know, people kind of 01:32:07.520 --> 01:32:10.390 seeing what's possible in themselves and 01:32:10.400 --> 01:32:11.830 each other and like, wow, we could 01:32:11.840 --> 01:32:14.550 actually do this. Like, 01:32:14.560 --> 01:32:18.070 it's more fun being the liberal in a 01:32:18.080 --> 01:32:20.470 kind of hierarchical conservative place 01:32:20.480 --> 01:32:22.790 than being the conservative in a liberal 01:32:22.800 --> 01:32:25.350 place. Like it's just hands down I get 01:32:25.360 --> 01:32:28.629 to be like the kind of like 01:32:28.639 --> 01:32:31.189 hippie that just comes in with flowers 01:32:31.199 --> 01:32:35.430 in his hair and um like ruffling 01:32:35.440 --> 01:32:36.709 feathers a little bit. 01:32:36.719 --> 01:32:37.669 >> All vibes. 01:32:37.679 --> 01:32:41.590 >> All vibes. Um but I'm I'm actually like 01:32:41.600 --> 01:32:42.790 there's a big part of me that's pretty 01:32:42.800 --> 01:32:44.790 conservative and like I don't want to 01:32:44.800 --> 01:32:47.430 like travel and I just like things that 01:32:47.440 --> 01:32:50.149 are predictable and reliable. 01:32:50.159 --> 01:32:53.110 So there's I'm a I'm a mixture of both. 01:32:53.120 --> 01:32:54.550 >> Why do you Yeah. Why do you feel like 01:32:54.560 --> 01:32:56.310 it's more fun to be that than the 01:32:56.320 --> 01:32:57.750 opposite? 01:32:57.760 --> 01:33:01.350 >> Because um Well, okay. I mean, I will 01:33:01.360 --> 01:33:05.030 say that it's not always more fun 01:33:05.040 --> 01:33:09.750 because it is I I also do feel a little 01:33:09.760 --> 01:33:11.430 bit like I've gone through phases of 01:33:11.440 --> 01:33:15.110 being a black sheep because 01:33:15.120 --> 01:33:16.470 people don't know what to do with me. 01:33:16.480 --> 01:33:19.189 And I'm and this is kind of a story I'm 01:33:19.199 --> 01:33:21.669 telling myself. I've heard people, you 01:33:21.679 --> 01:33:24.070 know, I've heard people kind of refer to

01:33:24.080 --> 01:33:27.430 me as like the flaming liberal, which is 01:33:27.440 --> 01:33:30.470 so funny because I'm like to my liberal 01:33:30.480 --> 01:33:34.070 friends, I'm sleeping with the enemy. So 01:33:34.080 --> 01:33:35.669 >> um 01:33:35.679 --> 01:33:37.350 and and [clears throat] so just in kind 01:33:37.360 --> 01:33:43.430 of a internal church dynamic [gasps] 01:33:43.440 --> 01:33:47.590 >> um the mess of internal church dynamics. 01:33:47.600 --> 01:33:49.750 It just it feels like really 01:33:49.760 --> 01:33:52.229 constricting sometimes and like all it 01:33:52.239 --> 01:33:54.629 takes is a few bad interactions with 01:33:54.639 --> 01:33:56.550 like leadership 01:33:56.560 --> 01:34:00.229 >> and it can really 01:34:00.239 --> 01:34:02.550 >> be draining. Yeah. 01:34:02.560 --> 01:34:06.709 >> So, I I say that it's fun to be the 01:34:06.719 --> 01:34:08.470 liberal in a conservative church. There 01:34:08.480 --> 01:34:11.830 there are moments um I I feel like when 01:34:11.840 --> 01:34:15.110 when trust is established, when people 01:34:15.120 --> 01:34:18.870 like I feel like people are kind of 01:34:18.880 --> 01:34:22.950 seeing me as like both a safe person and 01:34:22.960 --> 01:34:26.149 kind of a little kooky. That's like a 01:34:26.159 --> 01:34:29.430 sweet spot that feels real great. 01:34:29.440 --> 01:34:31.750 >> That makes a lot of sense. 01:34:31.760 --> 01:34:33.910 sweet see you as a sweet person but is 01:34:33.920 --> 01:34:36.790 also a little creepy. You know the 01:34:36.800 --> 01:34:38.390 ability 01:34:38.400 --> 01:34:41.270 to be known and to [clears throat] be ex 01:34:41.280 --> 01:34:43.990 accepted or loved or cared about 01:34:44.000 --> 01:34:46.390 regardless of 01:34:46.400 --> 01:34:50.310 your most woke or based opinions or 01:34:50.320 --> 01:34:50.950 beliefs. 01:34:50.960 --> 01:34:54.070 >> Oh, I like that. Polarity woke based. 01:34:54.080 --> 01:34:55.350 Interesting how they're kind of the 01:34:55.360 --> 01:34:56.310 same, aren't they? 01:34:56.320 --> 01:34:57.430 >> Now, 01:34:57.440 --> 01:35:03.669 >> yeah. Uh yeah, that's that is this uh 01:35:03.679 --> 01:35:07.110 >> well and I here's the thing though, like 01:35:07.120 --> 01:35:10.950 I'm not I'm growing too. This is this is 01:35:10.960 --> 01:35:13.350 not like I'm 01:35:13.360 --> 01:35:16.950 getting everyone to I mean I I to be a 01:35:16.960 --> 01:35:19.350 safe person I have to like to to be 01:35:19.360 --> 01:35:21.990 perceived as a safe person in I think 01:35:22.000 --> 01:35:24.470 this context I have to become a safe 01:35:24.480 --> 01:35:27.430 person. I have to I have to play by the 01:35:27.440 --> 01:35:30.790 rules enough to like show people that 01:35:30.800 --> 01:35:34.390 I'm I'm not actually here to destroy 01:35:34.400 --> 01:35:36.950 because I I think I think that's the the 01:35:36.960 --> 01:35:39.270 pathology of progressive post the the 01:35:39.280 --> 01:35:42.470 fear is

that they're going to infiltrate 01:35:42.480 --> 01:35:44.870 seep in and then just explode the whole 01:35:44.880 --> 01:35:45.669 system 01:35:45.679 --> 01:35:47.910 >> or not even explode but dissolve 01:35:47.920 --> 01:35:49.270 >> dissolve. Yeah. Dissolve. 01:35:49.280 --> 01:35:50.310 >> It's like a solvent. Like the 01:35:50.320 --> 01:35:52.709 postmodernism is like a solvent to 01:35:52.719 --> 01:35:53.189 >> Yeah. 01:35:53.199 --> 01:35:55.270 >> all these things. Yeah. Yeah, but what 01:35:55.280 --> 01:36:00.550 if we can use like solvent and viscosity 01:36:00.560 --> 01:36:02.149 or what? I don't know the right words, 01:36:02.159 --> 01:36:05.189 but use these two forces to actually 01:36:05.199 --> 01:36:07.590 make something more beautiful. 01:36:07.600 --> 01:36:09.830 >> I mean, to go back to your talent show 01:36:09.840 --> 01:36:11.750 thing, like you kind of created a 01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:13.990 solvent for this what could have been a 01:36:14.000 --> 01:36:16.709 barrier for people, right? Like and then 01:36:16.719 --> 01:36:18.310 it kind of gets rebuilt into a little 01:36:18.320 --> 01:36:19.270 bit of both. 01:36:19.280 --> 01:36:19.830 >> Mhm. 01:36:19.840 --> 01:36:23.510 >> That like you know um where maybe you 01:36:23.520 --> 01:36:25.110 know now you're having to like 01:36:25.120 --> 01:36:27.350 administrate and craft and you know 01:36:27.360 --> 01:36:29.189 structure this thing it sounds like you 01:36:29.199 --> 01:36:30.709 know as it got a little bigger and 01:36:30.719 --> 01:36:31.510 that's 01:36:31.520 --> 01:36:33.830 >> where that kind of building thing which 01:36:33.840 --> 01:36:36.070 is like kind of the fun thing but the 01:36:36.080 --> 01:36:37.830 that you're like oh 01:36:37.840 --> 01:36:40.709 >> um look I something got built something 01:36:40.719 --> 01:36:42.709 got made something got cultivated 01:36:42.719 --> 01:36:46.550 something got created and 01:36:46.560 --> 01:36:49.750 And it's this weird relationship with 01:36:49.760 --> 01:36:51.990 the quote unquote creative but also the 01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:56.470 administrative thing. And um and they 01:36:56.480 --> 01:36:59.270 get pitted against each other. I mean I 01:36:59.280 --> 01:37:01.590 you know in our church like I'm probably 01:37:01.600 --> 01:37:04.709 like one of the most deeply conservative 01:37:04.719 --> 01:37:08.550 people but I purposely didn't and and 01:37:08.560 --> 01:37:09.990 people that maybe don't even see 01:37:10.000 --> 01:37:12.070 themselves as 01:37:12.080 --> 01:37:13.990 that liberal. they would see themselves 01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:15.430 as like moderate or whatever and then 01:37:15.440 --> 01:37:16.790 there's people that would see themselves 01:37:16.800 --> 01:37:19.990 as something like liberal and 01:37:20.000 --> 01:37:21.510 uh I say that at least in like our 01:37:21.520 --> 01:37:26.310 leadership and stuff and uh but that you 01:37:26.320 --> 01:37:28.149 know 01:37:28.159 --> 01:37:30.709 we have to like we're 01:37:30.719 --> 01:37:32.550 as much as like I want to come to a 01:37:32.560 --> 01:37:34.470 place like so coming into the corner is 01:37:34.480 --> 01:37:36.550 like a place for me to try to find the 01:37:36.560 --> 01:37:38.310 conversations that I want to have so 01:37:38.320 --> 01:37:39.669 that when I'm having to have the 01:37:39.679 --> 01:37:42.709 conversations I don't want to have to 01:37:42.719 --> 01:37:46.709 have I am having them, you know, um so 01:37:46.719 --> 01:37:50.070 that I can, like you said, play by the 01:37:50.080 --> 01:37:51.510 rules that way, I guess, in a way. 01:37:51.520 --> 01:37:52.310 >> Yeah. 01:37:52.320 --> 01:37:52.790 >> Um 01:37:52.800 --> 01:37:53.189 >> yeah, 01:37:53.199 --> 01:37:54.149 >> that's important. 01:37:54.159 --> 01:37:56.629 >> Well, and so yeah, I mean I think that's 01:37:56.639 --> 01:38:00.149 the that's the um it's like the word 01:38:00.159 --> 01:38:01.750 antifragile. 01:38:01.760 --> 01:38:03.590 >> I'm not sure if there's another word. 01:38:03.600 --> 01:38:04.229 >> Yeah. 01:38:04.239 --> 01:38:07.109 >> Yeah. But there's there's this um 01:38:07.119 --> 01:38:08.550 resilience. 01:38:08.560 --> 01:38:09.350 >> Mhm. 01:38:09.360 --> 01:38:11.669 >> I think a new level of resilience that 01:38:11.679 --> 01:38:15.830 will be required in this new space, this 01:38:15.840 --> 01:38:17.750 new cultural 01:38:17.760 --> 01:38:19.189 evolutionary space. 01:38:19.199 --> 01:38:19.750 >> Yeah. 01:38:19.760 --> 01:38:23.350 >> That can both kind of 01:38:23.360 --> 01:38:26.709 >> work with solvents and work with 01:38:26.719 --> 01:38:28.470 emulsifier. Is that something that kind 01:38:28.480 --> 01:38:30.790 of bonds binds? I don't know. I'm 01:38:30.800 --> 01:38:31.910 thinking of something that adds 01:38:31.920 --> 01:38:34.053 structure versus something that you know 01:38:34.063 --> 01:38:35.590 [laughter] 01:38:35.600 --> 01:38:37.109 >> this this is what happens when you don't 01:38:37.119 --> 01:38:38.950 have like an official education in 01:38:38.960 --> 01:38:40.870 anything. This is this is the limits of 01:38:40.880 --> 01:38:42.229 my internet education. I'm just 01:38:42.239 --> 01:38:44.149 >> I should be I should be doing better. I 01:38:44.159 --> 01:38:45.910 did get an A in my college chemistry 01:38:45.920 --> 01:38:47.750 class not that long ago. 01:38:47.760 --> 01:38:49.590 >> Oh, dang. 01:38:49.600 --> 01:38:51.830 >> I when I went back to nursing school, I 01:38:51.840 --> 01:38:54.870 took chemistry and physiology and 01:38:54.880 --> 01:38:58.790 everything. That was uh Yeah, the um 01:38:58.800 --> 01:39:00.229 >> coagulator. 01:39:00.239 --> 01:39:01.430 >> Yeah, [snorts] that means that that 01:39:01.440 --> 01:39:05.430 would be for the blood. Yeah. 01:39:05.440 --> 01:39:07.030 And we put like we have this this is 01:39:07.040 --> 01:39:09.030 kind of gross, but like so someone had 01:39:09.040 -->

01:39:11.669 these suction canisters and they 01:39:11.679 --> 01:39:14.870 >> sucking urine, you know, [laughter] 01:39:14.880 --> 01:39:17.189 uh or 01:39:17.199 --> 01:39:20.070 spew them and this stuff and you can put 01:39:20.080 --> 01:39:22.229 this powder in them that congeals like 01:39:22.239 --> 01:39:24.070 you said earlier. Yeah. solidifies and 01:39:24.080 --> 01:39:25.910 then you throw it in the canister. 01:39:25.920 --> 01:39:27.030 >> Congal. 01:39:27.040 --> 01:39:29.109 >> Yeah. A congealer. 01:39:29.119 --> 01:39:30.629 And a solvent. 01:39:30.639 --> 01:39:32.149 >> Solvent. Yeah. 01:39:32.159 --> 01:39:35.030 >> And that I think I think those are the 01:39:35.040 --> 01:39:36.310 tools like we have to be able to use 01:39:36.320 --> 01:39:38.709 both. 01:39:38.719 --> 01:39:40.229 >> Um [clears throat] 01:39:40.239 --> 01:39:42.390 and so I don't know where I was going 01:39:42.400 --> 01:39:43.750 with that. 01:39:43.760 --> 01:39:46.149 Well, I think that's, you know, we this 01:39:46.159 --> 01:39:48.870 conversation has been like an uh, you 01:39:48.880 --> 01:39:50.870 know, because I I definitely know, like 01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:52.870 I said, I'm pretty probably deeply 01:39:52.880 --> 01:39:54.149 conservative and you're like, I know I 01:39:54.159 --> 01:39:56.950 think I'm probably deeply liberal or 01:39:56.960 --> 01:39:58.550 progressive on certain things and vice 01:39:58.560 --> 01:40:01.669 versa. Like that is the beauty and 01:40:01.679 --> 01:40:05.350 that's that's why like um being able to 01:40:05.360 --> 01:40:07.430 see oh well this person has some 01:40:07.440 --> 01:40:09.430 quoteunquote based interest but he's 01:40:09.440 --> 01:40:11.510 also not like just like a 01:40:11.520 --> 01:40:14.229 hopefully you know like that and 01:40:14.239 --> 01:40:16.550 I do that this person and vice versa 01:40:16.560 --> 01:40:17.590 like 01:40:17.600 --> 01:40:19.669 >> um not being 01:40:19.679 --> 01:40:21.109 >> there there I think there's something 01:40:21.119 --> 01:40:22.950 about 01:40:22.960 --> 01:40:26.149 >> becoming ideal like an ideologue or 01:40:26.159 --> 01:40:28.790 letting that be your only north star or 01:40:28.800 --> 01:40:31.910 your nor what I don't even know 01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:34.870 >> that has continued to be a part of this 01:40:34.880 --> 01:40:39.270 culture um and you know 01:40:39.280 --> 01:40:41.109 trying to participate in it trying to 01:40:41.119 --> 01:40:45.830 open these spaces trying to um you know 01:40:45.840 --> 01:40:48.149 find the truth I like what you said I 01:40:48.159 --> 01:40:50.470 guess in the break in my conversation I 01:40:50.480 --> 01:40:53.910 had with Cadell be coming out like uh 01:40:53.920 --> 01:40:55.750 he's the one he calls him he's a 01:40:55.760 --> 01:40:58.070 Christian atheist he's he runs an online 01:40:58.080 --> 01:40:59.669 community called Philosophy Portal and 01:40:59.679 --> 01:41:03.510 he's doing community work related to and 01:41:03.520 --> 01:41:07.350 he he sees something similar that like 01:41:07.360 --> 01:41:08.790 when we're talking about the Protestant 01:41:08.800 --> 01:41:12.229 Reformation and we're talking about uh 01:41:12.239 --> 01:41:14.149 like the civil rights movement or we're 01:41:14.159 --> 01:41:16.229 talking about these these breaks, you 01:41:16.239 --> 01:41:19.109 know, uh this the great schism like that 01:41:19.119 --> 01:41:21.109 he says he thinks the truth is in the 01:41:21.119 --> 01:41:23.270 breaks. 01:41:23.280 --> 01:41:25.830 That's where you find the truth is in 01:41:25.840 --> 01:41:29.669 these these Yeah. Kugi, man, 01:41:29.679 --> 01:41:31.030 >> it's in the brakes. 01:41:31.040 --> 01:41:33.109 >> Yeah. And and I and I was thinking about 01:41:33.119 --> 01:41:35.350 that. Uh what was the truth of 01:41:35.360 --> 01:41:37.510 Protestantism? Is it just complete 01:41:37.520 --> 01:41:39.669 ultimate heresy? you know, Orthobo 01:41:39.679 --> 01:41:41.990 heresy or was there something true that 01:41:42.000 --> 01:41:45.990 needed to be addressed 01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:48.550 and you know whether it you know messed 01:41:48.560 --> 01:41:52.229 everything up like [laughter] 01:41:52.239 --> 01:41:55.430 >> like and and we finally and so we're in 01:41:55.440 --> 01:41:58.310 a time probably the POian I don't know 01:41:58.320 --> 01:42:00.470 who else you know the the postw World 01:42:00.480 --> 01:42:02.390 War II consensus thing that's 01:42:02.400 --> 01:42:03.910 conversation that's happening and it's 01:42:03.920 --> 01:42:06.310 like well there's a break from something 01:42:06.320 --> 01:42:08.229 there's something cracking and there's 01:42:08.239 --> 01:42:09.830 probably some truth here and it's going 01:42:09.840 --> 01:42:11.750 to take some time to to figure that out 01:42:11.760 --> 01:42:14.149 but feels like we're like in that those 01:42:14.159 --> 01:42:15.430 spaces. 01:42:15.440 --> 01:42:17.270 >> Yeah. 01:42:17.280 --> 01:42:19.590 Um 01:42:19.600 --> 01:42:21.350 I want to come back to that but I 01:42:21.360 --> 01:42:23.109 something I was thinking about while we 01:42:23.119 --> 01:42:25.669 were talking about solvents and 01:42:25.679 --> 01:42:28.310 congealers. We're just making up stuff 01:42:28.320 --> 01:42:30.390 that we don't know. That's I I feel like 01:42:30.400 --> 01:42:31.590 Oh, that's one thing I want to add to 01:42:31.600 --> 01:42:34.629 our estuary protocol is like no googling 01:42:34.639 --> 01:42:36.950 anything unless you have total 100% 01:42:36.960 --> 01:42:39.430 consensus from the group so that we just 01:42:39.440 --> 01:42:40.870 like make up 01:42:40.880 --> 01:42:42.310 >> Yeah. in the conversation like 01:42:42.320 --> 01:42:43.830 >> it's okay to be wrong. It's okay. 01:42:43.840 --> 01:42:45.030 >> It's okay to be wrong. Like you just 01:42:45.040 --> 01:42:46.950 need to make it up and see if you can 01:42:46.960 --> 01:42:48.229 convince

people 01:42:48.239 --> 01:42:49.270 >> by your certainty. 01:42:49.280 --> 01:42:50.470 >> Propaganda. 01:42:50.480 --> 01:42:52.229 >> Yeah. [laughter] 01:42:52.239 --> 01:42:56.709 Um but I I kind of map this solvent 01:42:56.719 --> 01:42:58.310 congealing 01:42:58.320 --> 01:43:03.430 energy energy to like 01:43:03.440 --> 01:43:05.669 the right and left brain or there's 01:43:05.679 --> 01:43:07.990 there's a brain hemisphere. And so when 01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:10.629 I, you know, tell when I talk about 01:43:10.639 --> 01:43:14.709 being right or left, um, I feel like 01:43:14.719 --> 01:43:16.470 there's 01:43:16.480 --> 01:43:18.390 I'm just I just want to be a whole brain 01:43:18.400 --> 01:43:23.270 person, not a like one-sided person. And 01:43:23.280 --> 01:43:26.390 um you know Ian McGillst 01:43:26.400 --> 01:43:29.430 has done a lot of like work on this 01:43:29.440 --> 01:43:31.669 right blin hemisphere stuff. And he 01:43:31.679 --> 01:43:33.189 talks about the corpus colosum being 01:43:33.199 --> 01:43:37.030 like the that that crack between that 01:43:37.040 --> 01:43:41.270 both uh bridges and separates the these 01:43:41.280 --> 01:43:44.550 these two hemispheres that are both like 01:43:44.560 --> 01:43:46.229 kind of at odds with each other but also 01:43:46.239 --> 01:43:48.070 kind of need each other. 01:43:48.080 --> 01:43:51.030 >> Yeah. There's a lot that so much about 01:43:51.040 --> 01:43:55.109 the liinal web liinal space li these 01:43:55.119 --> 01:43:57.430 cracks like we're that's like what 01:43:57.440 --> 01:43:59.510 liinal like 01:43:59.520 --> 01:44:01.590 in like you think about like the light 01:44:01.600 --> 01:44:03.109 breaking through or something like in 01:44:03.119 --> 01:44:05.830 these things that happen and even like 01:44:05.840 --> 01:44:07.510 in the development of the the Christian 01:44:07.520 --> 01:44:09.109 church like uh I had this great 01:44:09.119 --> 01:44:11.669 conversation with um guy named Boss 01:44:11.679 --> 01:44:13.910 Vanos who's a a theologian in the 01:44:13.920 --> 01:44:15.510 Netherlands and his sons kind of 01:44:15.520 --> 01:44:17.189 participate in the corner they had the 01:44:17.199 --> 01:44:19.109 European estuary conference last year 01:44:19.119 --> 01:44:22.950 was like at their house and um 01:44:22.960 --> 01:44:25.830 he's done this project where he's doing 01:44:25.840 --> 01:44:28.149 certain he's taken certain sections of 01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:30.310 New Testament he's like doing a first 01:44:30.320 --> 01:44:34.149 person account like perspectival 01:44:34.159 --> 01:44:35.910 >> through it 01:44:35.920 --> 01:44:40.950 and there's so much related to 01:44:40.960 --> 01:44:43.750 you know perspective of well here's Paul 01:44:43.760 --> 01:44:48.229 Henistic Jew Titus is you know Greek and 01:44:48.239 --> 01:44:50.629 Timothy's both and then he's coming in 01:44:50.639 --> 01:44:52.790 there's Peter and James are trying to 01:44:52.800 --> 01:44:54.070 figure out the Jewish church and they 01:44:54.080 --> 01:44:55.109 come in there and there's like this kind 01:44:55.119 --> 01:44:58.550 of like tension and it's like because 01:44:58.560 --> 01:44:59.910 something's like breaking through 01:44:59.920 --> 01:45:02.149 something's happening something's 01:45:02.159 --> 01:45:05.350 changing and these figures 01:45:05.360 --> 01:45:07.990 by their very nature are liinal like 01:45:08.000 --> 01:45:11.430 Paul was like a liinal in his 01:45:11.440 --> 01:45:13.270 development like 01:45:13.280 --> 01:45:15.990 >> as a Greek to the Greek and like a 01:45:16.000 --> 01:45:17.910 Hebrew of Hebrews 01:45:17.920 --> 01:45:23.189 I was able to to to do that as uniquely 01:45:23.199 --> 01:45:25.910 made for that time. So, 01:45:25.920 --> 01:45:28.550 uh, the how these things all play 01:45:28.560 --> 01:45:31.830 together, uh, is fascinating and I feel 01:45:31.840 --> 01:45:34.390 like that's part of this space is that 01:45:34.400 --> 01:45:37.189 time and who knows how long it will be 01:45:37.199 --> 01:45:39.910 and will it congeal into something more 01:45:39.920 --> 01:45:41.510 or will it 01:45:41.520 --> 01:45:44.310 >> remain have a role of solveny or will it 01:45:44.320 --> 01:45:46.550 ping pong back and forth? But 01:45:46.560 --> 01:45:48.709 >> Riel, this has been a fun conversation 01:45:48.719 --> 01:45:50.870 today. Um, 01:45:50.880 --> 01:45:52.629 and I'm I appreciate you accepting the 01:45:52.639 --> 01:45:54.629 invitation to come back on and and 01:45:54.639 --> 01:45:58.149 meander and talk about things, corner 01:45:58.159 --> 01:46:00.950 things, cosmic naval. 01:46:00.960 --> 01:46:01.990 >> Yeah. 01:46:02.000 --> 01:46:05.189 uh music like even some of the technical 01:46:05.199 --> 01:46:06.870 I felt like 01:46:06.880 --> 01:46:08.390 >> I was having this thought when I was go 01:46:08.400 --> 01:46:10.310 we were going through that which was you 01:46:10.320 --> 01:46:12.950 know sometimes Rogan is talking to 01:46:12.960 --> 01:46:14.709 someone about something that 01:46:14.719 --> 01:46:15.990 >> that they're they're talking about 01:46:16.000 --> 01:46:17.910 something really highly technical 01:46:17.920 --> 01:46:19.590 >> and you think nobody's going to care 01:46:19.600 --> 01:46:20.550 about this. 01:46:20.560 --> 01:46:20.950 >> Yeah. 01:46:20.960 --> 01:46:22.950 >> I'm like oh that's kind of like when you 01:46:22.960 --> 01:46:24.229 get to kind of peak behind the curtain 01:46:24.239 --> 01:46:25.910 of something that you never maybe have 01:46:25.920 --> 01:46:27.510 experience with or you see these people 01:46:27.520 --> 01:46:28.709 with those things in their ear like 01:46:28.719 --> 01:46:30.070 what's that about? What you know how 01:46:30.080 --> 01:46:31.109 does that work? Yeah. 01:46:31.119 --> 01:46:32.950 >> So maybe I don't know that was actually 01:46:32.960 --> 01:46:37.270 like running in the back of my mind like 01:46:37.280

--> 01:46:39.030 >> okay so there's this there's this 01:46:39.040 --> 01:46:40.790 principle in songwriting. Sorry this 01:46:40.800 --> 01:46:42.149 could just turn we could go for another 01:46:42.159 --> 01:46:44.950 hour probably starting now. Um there's 01:46:44.960 --> 01:46:48.310 this principle in songwriting 01:46:48.320 --> 01:46:52.229 about um like the the more general you 01:46:52.239 --> 01:46:54.709 write the less relatable it is and the 01:46:54.719 --> 01:46:57.669 more specific you write the more kind of 01:46:57.679 --> 01:47:00.149 universal uh universally kind of 01:47:00.159 --> 01:47:03.669 relatable it is. So like that John Mayer 01:47:03.679 --> 01:47:06.390 like uses a lot of sensory language and 01:47:06.400 --> 01:47:09.990 like very specific like places and this 01:47:10.000 --> 01:47:12.550 is like a Berkeley kind of school of 01:47:12.560 --> 01:47:16.629 music concept I think. Um and it's it's 01:47:16.639 --> 01:47:20.950 those like sensory specific details that 01:47:20.960 --> 01:47:23.910 maybe seem like that's just so specific 01:47:23.920 --> 01:47:26.629 to your life actually paints the picture 01:47:26.639 --> 01:47:28.790 that allows us to kind of like put that 01:47:28.800 --> 01:47:32.310 image on. whereas like general 01:47:32.320 --> 01:47:36.550 platitudes just mean nothing and there's 01:47:36.560 --> 01:47:38.870 like no you're just kind of floating out 01:47:38.880 --> 01:47:40.149 in the wind. 01:47:40.159 --> 01:47:42.310 >> So I I I think it's it's actually these 01:47:42.320 --> 01:47:45.270 like nerdy little details that actually 01:47:45.280 --> 01:47:46.709 I don't know if the algorithm is going 01:47:46.719 --> 01:47:48.844 to pick up on how awesome they are, but 01:47:48.854 --> 01:47:49.590 [laughter] 01:47:49.600 --> 01:47:52.709 um I think they kind of make things 01:47:52.719 --> 01:47:56.070 sparkle a little bit. Well, thank you 01:47:56.080 --> 01:47:59.669 for hopefully helping me make this 01:47:59.679 --> 01:48:01.189 corner of the internet sparkle a little 01:48:01.199 --> 01:48:03.990 bit by being corner centric. You know, 01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:05.350 some of the things like 01:48:05.360 --> 01:48:07.189 >> here's another model that Paul, it's 01:48:07.199 --> 01:48:09.109 like there's times Paul is making stuff 01:48:09.119 --> 01:48:11.990 specifically that's way more 01:48:12.000 --> 01:48:13.750 out like, hey, and then he'll say 01:48:13.760 --> 01:48:15.109 sometimes you may hear me talking about 01:48:15.119 --> 01:48:16.870 this little corner when something's like 01:48:16.880 --> 01:48:20.790 very hyper. I think that's another model 01:48:20.800 --> 01:48:23.430 um to consider as far as in this digital 01:48:23.440 --> 01:48:26.550 space is at least that I am I guess but 01:48:26.560 --> 01:48:29.030 this is like 01:48:29.040 --> 01:48:30.950 you know 01:48:30.960 --> 01:48:33.590 looping back around to 01:48:33.600 --> 01:48:37.510 something very corner centric and I

01:48:37.520 --> 01:48:39.830 you were you know a part of that that's 01:48:39.840 --> 01:48:41.189 so interesting of being able to have 01:48:41.199 --> 01:48:43.109 like an influence on someone related to 01:48:43.119 --> 01:48:44.790 this thing and then you write about it. 01:48:44.800 --> 01:48:46.790 I sent I sent your Substack to like my 01:48:46.800 --> 01:48:48.470 family. I was like, "Hey, check this 01:48:48.480 --> 01:48:49.189 out." Like, 01:48:49.199 --> 01:48:49.910 >> really? 01:48:49.920 --> 01:48:52.470 >> Yeah. Like my parents and my my my 01:48:52.480 --> 01:48:53.910 siblings and stuff because they know I'm 01:48:53.920 --> 01:48:55.030 doing this stuff 01:48:55.040 --> 01:48:57.590 >> to keep up in different ways. But it's 01:48:57.600 --> 01:48:58.310 like 01:48:58.320 --> 01:49:00.229 >> I was like this was really cool because, 01:49:00.239 --> 01:49:01.990 you know, you had like the thumbnail and 01:49:02.000 --> 01:49:03.830 then you talk, you know, Christian 01:49:03.840 --> 01:49:05.189 baptized me into this thing. It was 01:49:05.199 --> 01:49:07.430 just, you know, obviously that's a 01:49:07.440 --> 01:49:10.310 tongue and cheek, but it's like 01:49:10.320 --> 01:49:11.750 uh just felt like, yeah, I'm doing 01:49:11.760 --> 01:49:13.910 something. Um, and you were a part of 01:49:13.920 --> 01:49:16.310 that. And so it's fun to continue to 01:49:16.320 --> 01:49:20.310 like carry on this 01:49:20.320 --> 01:49:22.950 relationality and and we actually met in 01:49:22.960 --> 01:49:25.109 person. And you found out that I was 6'5 01:49:25.119 --> 01:49:27.095 and I found out that you were 5'2. 01:49:27.105 --> 01:49:27.910 [laughter] 01:49:27.920 --> 01:49:31.430 >> I know. Yet we look exactly the same on 01:49:31.440 --> 01:49:34.310 camera. You know, look at that. Same 01:49:34.320 --> 01:49:35.830 size right there. 01:49:35.840 --> 01:49:38.629 >> If you find my blog my vlogs for Midwest 01:49:38.639 --> 01:49:40.790 Estster, go track down like the second 01:49:40.800 --> 01:49:42.790 one or something. and me and Riel and 01:49:42.800 --> 01:49:45.270 I'm like, "Hey, 01:49:45.280 --> 01:49:45.830 >> yeah, 01:49:45.840 --> 01:49:47.510 >> Roel, what do you think about this 01:49:47.520 --> 01:49:48.629 little corner?" 01:49:48.639 --> 01:49:50.149 >> That was great. I did watch that. I 01:49:50.159 --> 01:49:52.310 actually appreciate I appreciate your 01:49:52.320 --> 01:49:55.270 role in this corner as like [gasps] 01:49:55.280 --> 01:50:00.070 the unofficial um kind of reporter and 01:50:00.080 --> 01:50:02.870 connector and I don't know, you just you 01:50:02.880 --> 01:50:03.590 have like 01:50:03.600 --> 01:50:05.910 >> a story. I guess I think this thing is a 01:50:05.920 --> 01:50:09.270 story. It's not only a culture. 01:50:09.280 --> 01:50:12.390 It's that's why okay I think that's 01:50:12.400 --> 01:50:15.750 partly why I use the word TLCing. It's 01:50:15.760 --> 01:50:18.310 like this it's not a noun. It's like 01:50:18.320 --> 01:50:20.629 this 01:50:20.639 --> 01:50:24.149 ongoing living tradition. 01:50:24.159 --> 01:50:27.030 >> This story I just put living tradition 01:50:27.040 --> 01:50:29.990 in there because it feels more kind of 01:50:30.000 --> 01:50:32.070 significant. But it's like a a living, 01:50:32.080 --> 01:50:34.629 breathing thing that I think is worth 01:50:34.639 --> 01:50:37.109 documenting cuz we are I feel like we're 01:50:37.119 --> 01:50:38.950 making 01:50:38.960 --> 01:50:41.270 who knows. We could I could be totally 01:50:41.280 --> 01:50:42.790 wrong. It could just totally fizzle, but 01:50:42.800 --> 01:50:45.910 I feel like this scene is going to be 01:50:45.920 --> 01:50:49.109 part of whatever comes next. 01:50:49.119 --> 01:50:52.709 >> Yeah, we'll see. Uh we'll see. 01:50:52.719 --> 01:50:57.430 >> Can I Can I um plug something? 01:50:57.440 --> 01:50:58.390 >> Plug away. 01:50:58.400 --> 01:50:59.270 >> Okay. So, I just wanted 01:50:59.280 --> 01:51:00.390 >> What's going on? What do you got going 01:51:00.400 --> 01:51:00.950 on, Ryan? 01:51:00.960 --> 01:51:04.950 >> Well, I just want to drop a little note 01:51:04.960 --> 01:51:08.790 on your channel on CBACK channel about 01:51:08.800 --> 01:51:12.149 an upcoming conference that my 01:51:12.159 --> 01:51:13.830 organization 01:51:13.840 --> 01:51:17.830 is helping put on. Um, are you familiar 01:51:17.840 --> 01:51:21.030 with Rston College in Savannah? 01:51:21.040 --> 01:51:22.149 >> Very. 01:51:22.159 --> 01:51:25.189 >> Really? Yeah, that's Joe spoke at 01:51:25.199 --> 01:51:27.510 recently or and uh 01:51:27.520 --> 01:51:29.270 >> yeah, I loved his talk that he did there 01:51:29.280 --> 01:51:33.030 about that being like a seedbed for, 01:51:33.040 --> 01:51:35.750 >> you know, rebuilding culture actually. 01:51:35.760 --> 01:51:39.030 >> Okay. So, apparently Ian McGillchrist 01:51:39.040 --> 01:51:42.870 >> is now the chancellor taking over Jordan 01:51:42.880 --> 01:51:45.589 Peterson's role, I think. I I don't know 01:51:45.599 --> 01:51:48.310 the whole history of it but 01:51:48.320 --> 01:51:49.990 we 01:51:50.000 --> 01:51:53.350 our organization and um the center for 01:51:53.360 --> 01:51:56.070 process studies and cristogenesis I 01:51:56.080 --> 01:51:59.750 can't remember it's Elia Dillio's um 01:51:59.760 --> 01:52:02.870 kind of organization are putting on a 01:52:02.880 --> 01:52:05.750 conference called the future of meaning 01:52:05.760 --> 01:52:08.470 the philosophical renewal of truth 01:52:08.480 --> 01:52:11.189 beauty and goodness and Ian McGillchrist 01:52:11.199 --> 01:52:14.550 is going to be kind of our headliner and 01:52:14.560 --> 01:52:16.870 We're in the process of finding other 01:52:16.880 --> 01:52:19.430 people to come speak. I think, you know, 01:52:19.440 --> 01:52:23.109 David Bentley Hart is one person who may 01:52:23.119 --> 01:52:25.589 be coming. Um, and we have kind of a 01:52:25.599 -->

01:52:27.109 list of other people. I think Pasio 01:52:27.119 --> 01:52:29.589 might even be on the the list of people 01:52:29.599 --> 01:52:34.070 to to invite. Um, but I think it's going 01:52:34.080 --> 01:52:36.070 to I I would love it if there was just 01:52:36.080 --> 01:52:39.350 like just a sprinkling of estuary folk 01:52:39.360 --> 01:52:44.310 there to kind of bring this this medium 01:52:44.320 --> 01:52:48.837 of interaction into 01:52:48.847 --> 01:52:50.870 [snorts] I mean Rosson College maybe I 01:52:50.880 --> 01:52:53.589 don't it sounds kind of like you're a 01:52:53.599 --> 01:52:56.950 pretty cool like classicsbased very high 01:52:56.960 --> 01:53:00.149 in debate and conversation and so they 01:53:00.159 --> 01:53:01.910 may already just be masters at this 01:53:01.920 --> 01:53:02.629 stuff. But 01:53:02.639 --> 01:53:04.709 >> everybody takes everybody takes like 01:53:04.719 --> 01:53:06.550 four years of Greek and Latin at that 01:53:06.560 --> 01:53:08.229 school or something like 01:53:08.239 --> 01:53:10.950 >> I know. No, they like go to Greece to 01:53:10.960 --> 01:53:12.310 take like Greek 01:53:12.320 --> 01:53:14.149 >> and and they read the classics in the 01:53:14.159 --> 01:53:15.910 original. I think that's like the old 01:53:15.920 --> 01:53:18.390 schoolness of what they're doing. And 01:53:18.400 --> 01:53:20.950 yeah, I'm I'm really fascinated by them. 01:53:20.960 --> 01:53:23.669 Uh and because I think that the guy 01:53:23.679 --> 01:53:25.830 who's been like the big face of of their 01:53:25.840 --> 01:53:27.510 school, he was like on the biblical 01:53:27.520 --> 01:53:29.189 lectures with Peterson and 01:53:29.199 --> 01:53:32.390 >> Yeah. um he's he has really interesting 01:53:32.400 --> 01:53:34.070 conversations about culture and you know 01:53:34.080 --> 01:53:36.629 it's very kind of eliteish like the you 01:53:36.639 --> 01:53:38.629 know classical style suits and 01:53:38.639 --> 01:53:41.669 everything and um in a way similar to 01:53:41.679 --> 01:53:44.870 arc in a kind of in a way but more more 01:53:44.880 --> 01:53:47.669 low-key like aesthetic more grounded 01:53:47.679 --> 01:53:49.990 aesthetic but it's like 01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:53.189 >> the funny I saw Ian McGill at Ark and I 01:53:53.199 --> 01:53:55.350 I w he was on like you know there was 01:53:55.360 --> 01:53:56.709 like the tables down front and then 01:53:56.719 --> 01:53:59.589 there's like a pathway and then there's 01:53:59.599 --> 01:54:01.189 some uh just a little bit of stadium 01:54:01.199 --> 01:54:02.709 seating and he was on the front row of 01:54:02.719 --> 01:54:04.470 those stadiums and I was walking by and 01:54:04.480 --> 01:54:07.438 here's what he was doing. 01:54:07.448 --> 01:54:09.350 [laughter] 01:54:09.360 --> 01:54:11.369 He was just fast asleep. 01:54:11.379 --> 01:54:11.990 [gasps and snorts] 01:54:12.000 --> 01:54:15.030 I was like he's just you know he's here 01:54:15.040 --> 01:54:16.709 because he someone told him he had to 01:54:16.719 --> 01:54:17.430 be. 01:54:17.440 --> 01:54:18.950 >> Yeah. Yep. 01:54:18.960 --> 01:54:22.149 >> Be up in Scotland you know in his uh you 01:54:22.159 --> 01:54:24.149 know this McBthian 01:54:24.159 --> 01:54:26.229 retreat that he's got up there. Oh my 01:54:26.239 --> 01:54:28.470 god. That sounds like an awesome 01:54:28.480 --> 01:54:28.870 >> Yeah, 01:54:28.880 --> 01:54:31.750 >> I would love actually when what when so 01:54:31.760 --> 01:54:34.149 it's going to be May 01:54:34.159 --> 01:54:38.224 I miday 2027 so it's a little ways off 01:54:38.234 --> 01:54:38.870 [gasps] 01:54:38.880 --> 01:54:42.070 but um it will be in Savannah at like at 01:54:42.080 --> 01:54:43.430 Rston College. 01:54:43.440 --> 01:54:44.070 >> Y 01:54:44.080 --> 01:54:46.390 >> um and so 01:54:46.400 --> 01:54:47.750 >> I'll probably be there 01:54:47.760 --> 01:54:50.470 >> I that would be amazing. 01:54:50.480 --> 01:54:52.229 >> Bring my little microphones and get try 01:54:52.239 --> 01:54:53.669 to get up in some people's faces. 01:54:53.679 --> 01:54:55.750 >> Yes, that's what I'm talking about. 01:54:55.760 --> 01:54:58.390 little TLC infiltration. 01:54:58.400 --> 01:55:02.390 >> This is the story, man. Like I feel like 01:55:02.400 --> 01:55:04.709 things like Ralston, McGill, like where 01:55:04.719 --> 01:55:07.030 is this thread? You know, even you even 01:55:07.040 --> 01:55:09.830 put the lore in there. McIll is 01:55:09.840 --> 01:55:12.149 replacing Peterson. That's like 01:55:12.159 --> 01:55:14.709 >> that's like lore on this thread, you 01:55:14.719 --> 01:55:17.589 know? I'll I'll give us the 01:55:17.599 --> 01:55:20.149 >> this poster. It's not going nowhere. 01:55:20.159 --> 01:55:22.709 >> Finally, I can use my hands. Oh, yes. 01:55:22.719 --> 01:55:24.229 That's right. That poster is not going 01:55:24.239 --> 01:55:26.870 anywhere. Even with all the hate and 01:55:26.880 --> 01:55:28.709 with all, you know, and that he's Can 01:55:28.719 --> 01:55:30.229 you believe he's not a perfect person? 01:55:30.239 --> 01:55:31.830 Can you believe he 01:55:31.840 --> 01:55:33.990 >> sold out to Daily W? Can you believe 01:55:34.000 --> 01:55:35.669 that? Can you believe that? 01:55:35.679 --> 01:55:36.790 >> I know. 01:55:36.800 --> 01:55:38.310 >> Yeah, he is part of He's part of the 01:55:38.320 --> 01:55:38.870 lore. 01:55:38.880 --> 01:55:41.510 >> There's a story, man. And uh 01:55:41.520 --> 01:55:45.109 >> this this is part of it. Uh that little 01:55:45.119 --> 01:55:48.310 bit of lore and that I would love to go 01:55:48.320 --> 01:55:50.229 to a conference at Ralston College. I 01:55:50.239 --> 01:55:51.990 would love to know somebody there 01:55:52.000 --> 01:55:56.550 personally and like I did meet 01:55:56.560 --> 01:55:58.070 but like it's not the same. 01:55:58.080 --> 01:55:59.669 >> Yeah. No, you and me, we'll go to 01:55:59.679 --> 01:56:01.410 McDonald's together like we did

01:56:01.420 --> 01:56:03.270 [laughter] that one morning. 01:56:03.280 --> 01:56:05.830 >> Man, that was a good time. 01:56:05.840 --> 01:56:07.030 >> I just love that 01:56:07.040 --> 01:56:09.270 >> talking about liturgy in the car and 01:56:09.280 --> 01:56:12.390 yeah, that was that. No, that sounds 01:56:12.400 --> 01:56:14.470 that sounds like an awesome conference. 01:56:14.480 --> 01:56:17.350 Say the name again. Yeah. So, it's it's 01:56:17.360 --> 01:56:19.030 going to be um 01:56:19.040 --> 01:56:21.910 >> the future of meaning, the philosophical 01:56:21.920 --> 01:56:24.470 renewal of truth, beauty, and goodness 01:56:24.480 --> 01:56:28.950 on May of 2027, somewhere between the 01:56:28.960 --> 01:56:32.149 16th and the 27th. Um I'll just read 01:56:32.159 --> 01:56:35.510 like a little paragraph uh that I I got 01:56:35.520 --> 01:56:37.510 for this. Inspiring new forms of 01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:40.070 philosophy are appearing in our time. 01:56:40.080 --> 01:56:42.950 philosophies that offer renewed hope for 01:56:42.960 --> 01:56:44.790 our search for meaning in the modern 01:56:44.800 --> 01:56:47.589 world. A common theme of these emerging 01:56:47.599 --> 01:56:49.589 philosophies is the crucial role of 01:56:49.599 --> 01:56:52.229 values in the ongoing evolution of our 01:56:52.239 --> 01:56:54.870 universe. By showing how truth, beauty, 01:56:54.880 --> 01:56:59.109 and goodness are cosmic realities that 01:56:59.119 --> 01:57:01.350 are essential to a truly scientific 01:57:01.360 --> 01:57:03.589 worldview. These fresh forms of 01:57:03.599 --> 01:57:06.070 philosophy can help us transcend both 01:57:06.080 --> 01:57:09.350 materialistic thinking and the retreat 01:57:09.360 --> 01:57:12.629 into various forms of fundamentalism. 01:57:12.639 --> 01:57:15.990 >> Oh, sounds familiar. 01:57:16.000 --> 01:57:17.990 >> Sounds developmental. 01:57:18.000 --> 01:57:20.011 So developmental 01:57:20.021 --> 01:57:20.149 [snorts] 01:57:20.159 --> 01:57:23.109 >> man that that if it's got McGillchrist 01:57:23.119 --> 01:57:25.910 at Ralston with possible PJO and I don't 01:57:25.920 --> 01:57:27.750 you know some other folks like I guess 01:57:27.760 --> 01:57:30.149 connected to what you're doing uh I I'm 01:57:30.159 --> 01:57:32.950 pretty interested in that and the like 01:57:32.960 --> 01:57:34.790 there's this whole conversation about 01:57:34.800 --> 01:57:37.990 philosophy and theology like shaping the 01:57:38.000 --> 01:57:41.589 role of science in a in a new way. So, 01:57:41.599 --> 01:57:43.589 >> I'm going to I'm going to end us there. 01:57:43.599 --> 01:57:45.430 And I'm just so thankful that you came 01:57:45.440 --> 01:57:47.830 and played here in the yours truly 01:57:47.840 --> 01:57:51.510 virtual studio from sailing in from the 01:57:51.520 --> 01:57:54.550 Cosmic Naval Studio in Austin. 01:57:54.560 --> 01:57:57.109 >> Thank you, Christian. Always a pleasure. 01:57:57.119 --> 01:57:58.950 >> Yes, sir. Thanks for sticking around all 01:57:58.960 --> 01:58:00.790 the way to this point of the video. I 01:58:00.800 --> 01:58:02.070 want to encourage you if you thought 01:58:02.080 --> 01:58:03.350 that video was interesting, you'll 01:58:03.360 --> 01:58:05.189 probably like this one. Uh check out 01:58:05.199 --> 01:58:07.350 these featured corner conversation 01:58:07.360 --> 01:58:09.430 playlists. And if you want to keep up 01:58:09.440 --> 01:58:11.510 the podcast, you can follow along here. 01:58:11.520 --> 01:58:15.560 And don't forget, subscribe.