The Things We Do... - Interview with Rain Sullivan의 전체 녹취록

because 74 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:58,360 did you feel as a kid that you were like I needed to leave an imprint or a legacy on 75 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,080 things? 76 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,520 I think so. 77 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:09,880 Even when I was younger and in high school, I had all these dreams that were not the dreams 78 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,000 I told people. 79 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:17,080 Especially if I had a math science brain. 80 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:24,560 I did really well in those kinds of classes and not actually in English. 81 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,180 It was funny because I had this pull to go into something creative. 82 00:05:28,180 --> 00:05:31,040 From the get go, I wanted to do theater. 83 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,360 I told some of my closest friends I want to be a director. 84 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:41,720 I had all these ideas about telling stories in some way, shape, or form. 85 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:42,720 And choreography. 86 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:48,560 I was a gymnast for a long time and I would choreograph all my friends' routines. 87 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,840 Just liked creating stuff. 88 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:56,920 But the thing I would tell people is I'm good at math and science so I'm probably going 89 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,160 to study math and science and go that path. 90 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,040 My dad was in the science field so it made sense. 91 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,440 That was the smart choice. 92 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:09,440 I don't know where I was going with that. 93 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:10,440 I kind of just lost it. 94 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,840 No, I like it. 95 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:19,120 Did you feel like it was just the thing you needed to do? 96 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:25,040 Go into that work style and everything? 97 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:26,040 When I started writing? 98 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:27,040 No. 99 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:33,280 With your dad being in the science field, was it just felt like you needed to be in 100 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:37,680 some sort of scientific or medicinal capacity? 101 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:43,480 Yeah, I think there was a combination of things going on. 102 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,840 One, that's what I kind of had a knack for. 103 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:51,200 So when you're not doing great in certain classes and you're doing really well in others, 104 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:57,840 you're like, oh well, screw the classes that I suck at and I'm killing it with math and 105 00:06:57,840 --> 00:06:59,400 chemistry and that kind of stuff. 106 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,000 So clearly that's the direction that makes more sense for me. 107 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,660 There's a little bit of that. 108 00:07:05,660 --> 00:07:12,120 My dad was one of seven, so pick the smart career and if you get a degree in chemistry 109 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,880 or something along those lines, you're going to be able to

make a career out of that. 110 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:22,240 Whereas if you get a degree in creative writing, good luck. 111 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,880 So there's a little bit of definitely push. 112 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:33,680 But then also, sorry, we're going in a real morbid direction, but both my parents got 113 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,760 brain cancer about a year apart from each other. 114 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,760 And so my mom got it when I was in high school. 115 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,600 Hers was operable. 116 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:51,320 On the day of my high school graduation, she got surgery and it was removed. 117 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:57,360 There's been some funky glitches with movement of one of her hands, but otherwise she's great, 118 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:58,360 recovered wonderfully. 119 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:04,160 Ten months later, I was in college and my dad gets brain cancer and it's inoperable. 120 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:09,720 So it's a very different beast, chemo radiation track. 121 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,880 And so I think that also was part of the push to OC, I'm meant to be a doctor, I'm meant 122 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:21,080 to be a doctor, do the doctor thing, do the doctor thing. 123 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,840 It never really made me happy, but you get a lot of praise for landing in that box. 124 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:31,400 So it's a really comfortable box to sit in, especially if you aren't flunking those classes. 125 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:38,280 So you're like, it's coming from all directions, what you should be doing, what people kind 126 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:39,280 of expect. 127 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,600 And then you get praise from your friends' parents, your friends who are going into fashion 128 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,600 design, they're like, oh God. 129 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:52,560 You're the kid who's going to be the doctor, which didn't happen, by the way. 130 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:58,000 I mean, that's also like, it goes from one giant shift, doesn't it? 131 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:03,120 Because I think when people go into medicine or when they go into it, it's normally like 132 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,720 a savior complex. 133 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,040 And I think it didn't sound like that from your perspective, it was just something you 134 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:11,040 were good at. 135 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:17,400 And then you were just like, everyone just wants you to stay in that box rather than 136 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,480 you feeling like that box actually suits you. 137 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:21,480 Yeah. 138 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,080 It was like the savior complex was there. 139 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,760 Like I was expecting it, I wanted to feel that way really badly. 140 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:37,040 I kept waiting to be like, see, if I do these things, I could literally be tackling the 141 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,520 issue that attacked my family, right? 142 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,760 Like there's kind of this almost, it feels like there should be this full circle moment 143 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,080 there and it just wasn't connecting. 144 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:52,200 It's like no matter what I do, this circle is not coming full circle, it just wasn't 145 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,200 happening. 146 00:09:53,200 --> 00:10:02,240 I just was so emotionally and mentally drained when I worked at the hospital. 147 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:03,800 I hated it, absolutely hated it. 148 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:10,160 And then even when I pivoted to working more like environmental science and then working 149 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:18,120 in physical therapy, it was like these pivots are better, but they're still not right. 150 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,200 All I can think about are these stories. 151 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,680 And I think that that's actually what completed the story, or sorry, the circle. 152 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:32,560 There's a lot of metaphors going on right now. 153 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:37,280 I mean, look, it's interesting because this isn't the best stories built out of tragedy 154 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,760 or like some sort of real life grief. 155 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:52,160 I mean, for me, that's how this story came up because I mean, the story that I'm working 156 00:10:52,160 --> 00:11:02,200 on now, even putting final touches on and hope to query very soon, it's based all on 157 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:03,200 that. 158 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,920 You're finding out your dad has cancer and I mean, it has a different twist because it's 159 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:08,920 not real life. 160 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:14,000 And I have dream portals, which means you have access to different worlds and you could 161 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,520 have, in theory, find cures. 162 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,440 And that's the whole basis for that story. 163 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,120 And that's what I mean by coming full circle. 164 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:29,120 I just wrote this different kind of conclusion because I don't think 19 year old me could 165 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,920 handle it. 166 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:43,360 So I don't know, it's almost like I needed to work stuff out for myself in order to be 167 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:44,360 able to help. 168 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:51,040 I feel like, and I hope that this story will help other people who are going through it. 169 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:56,680 And I've had a couple of readers who, you know, different versions, same story of my 170 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:04,000 mom's going through cancer treatment now and this story really resonated with me and stuff 171 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,000 like that. 172 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,320 So I think it did come full circle and it's just in a very, very different way. 173 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:11,320 I love that though. 174

00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,320 It's like you're helping people through other means rather than it being through the mean 175 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,720 that initially everyone expected you to help them. 176 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:28,480 It's come through like a completely different narrative almost because yeah, like I always 177 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:34,080 think that especially with parents and the people that bring you up in this world whenever 178 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:40,160 that like something breaks in them or something goes wrong, you're like automatic, like ideology 179 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:45,040 is like to freak out and you know, be like, well, the person who is meant to be immortal 180 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,200 and live forever is now suddenly not going to be able to do that. 181 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:56,240 They're going to have to go through like treatment and everything or they might pass away. 182 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,800 And you know, like I think it's more common than not to have, you know, like for people 183 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:06,560 lose parents, you know, and I think that's kind of the realization. 184 00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:11,760 It's like how lucky some people are to still have them around and then like versus others. 185 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,400 And I think like particularly people, we don't talk about grief and like especially when 186 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:21,280 it's like parents because we talk about extended like family members, like grandparents and 187 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,240 you know, aunts and uncles and all that. 188 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:31,280 But when it comes to our own immediate family and struggling with like how like, you know, 189 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:37,120 dysfunctional that is or like how like unstable I can be, I think that's the thing that, you 190 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:44,520 know, we translate grief into just windshields blocked, everything's fine, rose colored glasses. 191 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:50,800 Like do you think that now, you know, being the age that you are, do you think you have 192 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:59,040 much more like, you know, I want to say clinical view of grief due to writing or is it very 193 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,520 much like, are still very emotional? 194 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,120 It's definitely become a little more clinical, you know, to use that word. 195 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:17,680 Yeah, because when I started writing, I was, you know, 24 now I'm 29 and I'm on draft 196 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:19,160 12 of this story. 197 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,960 I pray to God it is the end. 198 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:29,880 And it's so different because in that first draft, which to any writers out there, just 199 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:35,820 let your first draft be a messy hodgepodge because you're going to learn so much by getting 200 00:14:35,820 --> 00:14:38,680 all those ideas out on paper. 201 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:39,680 But it is messy. 202 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:46,280 And when I go back and I look at it and I'm like, I was still not not that you're ever 203 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:52,380 done dealing with grief, but I was in the thick of it because I at 19 when I lost my 204 00:14:52,380 --> 00:15:02,760 dad, I shut down, like I just turned off the emotion as much as I could and plowed ahead, 205 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,240 like okay, keep going, keep marching along. 206 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,560 And clearly when I was 24, it's when I lost my grandfather. 207 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,800 And then that was that was kind of the push. 208 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,000 That was that like tipping point. 209 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,480 And I could just see it like all it all poured out. 210 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:22,280 And now that I've been playing with this story on and off, you know, other stories, whatnot, 211 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:30,080 for five years, it's like, I can see the growth and the development and the under like the 212 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:36,480 understanding of grief, because there's definitely you're playing this tug of war so much when 213 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,720 you lose people of like, should I be letting them go? 214 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,040 Should I not like I don't want to let go? 215 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,520 Oh, God, it feels awful to let go. 216 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:46,520 Right. 217 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:51,720 Like when you're six months out and you're having a great time, suddenly feel guilty 218 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,400 for enjoying your own life. 219 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:54,400 Right. 220 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,560 And so you're constantly on this like little tug of war. 221 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,280 And at some point, you realize like it's not there's you're not going to pick one end of 222 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,480 that that spectrum. 223 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,800 You're going to you got to get comfortable being uncomfortable somewhere in the middle. 224 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,040 And you're going to tip a little from the middle, left or right, you know, depending 225 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:14,520 on the day. 226 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,560 And then but you're never going to it's not it's not fixed. 227 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,160 Yeah, it's just you grow, you evolve. 228 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:21,680 And now that's part of you. 229 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,640 And so I do think that's what kind of happened. 230 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,560 And now it's fun because I get to write it. 231 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:34,200 You know, my main character is 21 and losing her father. 232 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,920 And I get to write it with this. 233 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:44,160 OK, I know, you know, from like a 29 year old and I've dealt with this to some degree. 234 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:45,160 Right. 235 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:46,160 Like I said, you're never really done.

236 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:52,560 But I've like stepped back and I can look at my character and plop them back into what 237 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,440 it is to be that technically still a kid brain. 238 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:57,440 Right. 239 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:02,760 Like you're 21, you're not developed mentally and you're dealing with these big, scary thoughts. 240 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,280 Like you said, like you just you don't think about losing a parent until it starts to happen. 241 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:08,360 Right. 242 00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:11,320 And definitely being able to step back and now write it. 243 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:18,160 And I can write that character like very raw without it necessarily touching my own hurt, 244 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:19,160 my own grief. 245 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:24,000 Now, it's like this like separation of self from from story. 246 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,000 Yeah. 247 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,640 Which I think is always like an interesting factor because, you know, when you can step 248 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:35,640 back from your own personal grief and then sort of like projected into a character and 249 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,960 make them have their own version of like coping mechanisms and everything. 250 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:46,960 And I think it's also like the concept of like, you know, we're in an era where mental 251 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:47,960 health is so much better. 252 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,060 And, you know, we're still working on a lot of people like working on things that we never 253 00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:53,240 talked about as kids. 254 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,320 Like, you know, there wasn't conversation flying around being like, how are you doing? 255 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,120 Like, you know, a lot of it was just like, you know, like the clinical they're gone now 256 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,160 or, you know, everything like that. 257 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:09,440 Or they're in a better place or, you know, like and, you know, like things like that 258 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,200 I get from a kid's perspective because you want to like not alienate them. 259 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:14,800 You want to make them happy. 260 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:20,760 But, you know, as an adult, it's just it's just fucking annoying. 261 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,680 The worst one is it'll get better with time. 262 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:25,680 Yeah. 263 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:26,680 Yeah. 264 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:27,680 Thank you, Susan. 265 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:28,680 Will it? 266 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:34,520 It doesn't feel like it right now, but you're logically, you know, you know, it will. 267 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,280 Oh, I think it's also like, you know, how, how do we sort of cope with grief? 268 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,280 How do we cope with anything? 269 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,280 And I think a lot of the time we shut down, like, you know, a lot of the coping mechanism 270 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,240 is to not feel and to push through. 271 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:54,920 And I remember, like, I think, I don't know if this was like your childhood, but you know, 272 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:02,020 like particularly when family members would pass away, like I would just suddenly go into 273 00:19:02,020 --> 00:19:03,520 making sure everyone else is okay. 274 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,720 Like, you know, I would just be the one because everyone else is crying around me and I'm 275 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:12,480 like, oh, I got to, I got to do the managing of everyone else because I don't, they're 276 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:13,880 all going to fall apart. 277 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:19,400 And so there was a little bit of Saviour Complex that developed in my youth based on that, 278 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,680 which didn't really help as I got into adult years. 279 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:28,280 Like, you know, because that becomes like, just if people have problems, you help them, 280 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,280 you try and fix them for them. 281 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:36,040 And I think like it was something very interesting that one of my therapists said, which was, 282 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,840 you know, you just can't, like there's so many things, like, as we talk about grief, 283 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,400 that you can't really fix. 284 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,720 Like you've got this long echo chamber of like grief that clings onto you. 285 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:54,360 And it's just about coping every day because our lives don't really, you never stop grieving. 286 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:58,000 Like you never stop missing someone or you know, missing a pet, missing a person. 287 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,720 Like, you never really stop. 288 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,280 But it just, it does lessen because it goes into the back of your head rather than it 289 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,640 being the forefront of your mind, unless you're constantly bringing it to it. 290 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:17,760 But you know, like I remember a few years ago, my dad was diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis, 291 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,400 which basically means eventually, like he was like, I know this is the thing that's 292 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:22,400 going to get me in the end. 293 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,480 Like it's going to be the thing that kills me. 294 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,880 And he was very calm about it. 295 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,640 Like he, man, he's very happy still, like very calm, but he's just like, and every time 296 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,080 I hear him cough, I'm like, oh God, that's the cough of death. 297 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,960 Like, you know, that's the thing that's going to eventually get him. 298 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,960 And like he's 68 now. 299 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,960 So I'm like, I'm also sort of like partially grateful

that I've had such a long life with 300 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,780 him because I'm like, I know people who obviously didn't have that. 301 00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:57,160 And so there's always a sort of thing of being grateful because when that moment happens, 302 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:02,480 and for someone who grew up, growing up, he did not cope well with death. 303 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:08,000 He, knowing his own mortality is he just went, yep, I'm going to do life. 304 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,300 Like there's nothing really going to stop me. 305 00:21:10,300 --> 00:21:16,760 And I think it was sort of like such a surprising role model to expect out of like someone who 306 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,880 can't deal with grief very well, because it was like, and it sort of made my mum kind 307 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,400 of go into this other form where she's more worried about him than he's worried about 308 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:27,400 himself. 309 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,680 Like he's just like, as long as I'm happy and I get to see, you know, my grandchildren 310 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,880 and I get to have a lot, you know, like have these little milestones that he's really thinking 311 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,520 about little milestones rather than big long milestones now. 312 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:45,760 I think that makes him like it a little bit easier if his health starts to decline. 313 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:52,280 But you know, it is a thing because like, I don't know, a lot of my family members, 314 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,520 when they did pass away, there was like five years of just decline in health. 315 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,960 And it just felt long and dragged out. 316 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,320 Like my gran was the same. 317 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,360 She was four years before she passed away. 318 00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:05,880 It was dragged health problems. 319 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,520 And my aunt was like four or five years of just like being in and out of hospital. 320 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,960 And I was like, you know, I sort of am grateful that my dad's not to that point yet. 321 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,920 But having friends who are already like at our age getting diagnosed with cancer, getting 322 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:27,360 diagnosed with a bunch of different things, I'm also hyper aware that I'm like, life can 323 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:28,640 just go. 324 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:36,200 Like you are not like we are not tethered to this world very quick, like for very long. 325 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:42,200 Yeah, I think I think that with with both my parents getting sick in different ways 326 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,960 so quick, like one, two, that it's just like that sort of like focus the lens a little 327 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,680 bit on that. 328 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,520 And then my grandfather was a few years later. 329 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:55,800 And something about that too, right? 330 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,960 You have your grandparents outliving your own parents and just like this things like 331 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,680 snapped into focus. 332 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,720 But like, it doesn't matter if it makes me enough money. 333 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:12,080 It doesn't matter if I make it, you know, all this kind of all those big scary thoughts 334 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,000 that, you know, at 21 or 22 felt so crippling. 335 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,200 Like I just have to live life and do the things that bring me joy and make me feel like, like, 336 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,000 oh, yeah, this is what it this is why I'm here. 337 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,440 I feel like I lost the thread. 338 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:28,440 No, I love that. 339 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:29,440 I love it. 340 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,440 No, I just I really agree with you. 341 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,000 I think that's like the thing that happened to me. 342 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,640 It was like, you know, knowing my dad, you know, and especially when my aunt passed away, 343 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,640 I was like, well, these are the things that make them proud. 344 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,200 They didn't want me to have like careers that would just pay heaps. 345 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,740 Like they wanted me to do the things that I loved. 346 00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:49,560 So I'd rather do those. 347 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,100 And you know, I think that was a massive discussion. 348 00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:59,240 And it's why I quit full time work like, you know, it's it's good like to live, live the 349 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:04,700 life that you want to live and not sort of dictate it through, you know, especially when 350 00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:06,320 you lose people that you care about. 351 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,040 You're like, OK, well, how would they want to see me happy? 352 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:15,320 Are they did they die knowing I was happy or did they die seeing the version of me which 353 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,080 isn't happy doing this thing repetitively? 354 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:25,360 And you know, do I want to spend a hundred hours a week doing the thing that I actually 355 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:26,360 love? 356 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:27,360 Oh, yeah. 357 00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:34,560 And I think it's funny because, you know, my dad was so he's he's kind of a goofball, 358 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,520 but but was so in his mind, you know, I think honestly being one of seven and with a single 359 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:48,400 mom, he was so follow the track that's going to guarantee you like the income, the security, 360 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:56,400 the good job, because I think he's he lived so close to that line of not being able to 361 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,120 support himself. 362 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,440 And you know, he was on

the on that path. 363 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:02,440 Right. 364 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:08,680 He went to college, did all the things, checked all the boxes and brought himself out of poverty. 365 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,960 And so I think there was a little bit of don't risk it all now. 366 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:18,200 Like, you know, you're very lucky to I was, you know, not on the poverty line. 367 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,160 You know, growing up where he was. 368 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:25,320 And so I think there was a little bit of that push. 369 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:31,960 And then at the same time, I did I did athletics and sports and stuff growing up. 370 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:38,460 Like my dad was so happy when I was happy after, you know, gymnastics practice. 371 00:25:38,460 --> 00:25:41,320 And he'd always be like, how was gymnastics today? 372 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,040 And I would go on and on and on in the car about what I got to do that day. 373 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,680 You know, we did flips into the pit and whatnot. 374 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:53,600 And so like my dad was, I think, honestly, the most happy when we were happy. 375 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,440 And then there's this fear because which parents have for their kids, you know, they want them 376 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,760 to do well and survive well. 377 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,720 This fear that if I went the wrong direction, I would struggle. 378 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,720 Right. 379 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,480 So I get that, too. 380 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,600 And I think there's I definitely offer him a lot of grace with that because because 381 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,200 I get it. 382 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,040 You want to you want to keep your kids safe. 383 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,080 You want them to go on a path that you think makes more sense. 384 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,080 Right. 385 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,760 But at the end of the day, I think he would have wanted me to be happy. 386 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,440 And I don't know. 387 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:33,080 I like I don't believe in much. 388 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:39,920 I don't believe in all the like above above the world place and below the world place. 389 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:45,440 But I there's this part of me that's like, I kind of feel like people aren't ever really 390 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:46,440 gone. 391 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:47,440 No. 392 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:56,600 You know, and I'm like, I hope in some weird, quirky, nonphysical way, my dad can read my 393 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:57,600 book. 394 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,240 And I think he would really enjoy it. 395 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:00,600 I love that. 396 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,800 I think it's like I love that theory because, you know, you've got like the idea that we're 397 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:11,760 energy and you know, like whether you're religious or not, like out there listening. 398 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:18,040 But I do like the idea that we are energy like forming and like, you know, we're made 399 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:23,480 of electrons and you know, all these things that you know, and billions of microorganisms 400 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,360 that run through our skin. 401 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,720 And if you get rid of them, a lot of it, you will die. 402 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,920 Like they make you very healthy. 403 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,520 They're good. 404 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,120 And it's amazing, like, you know, then there's sort of like this ideology that people get 405 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:38,120 scared of that. 406 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,800 And I'm like, no, these are good, like microorganisms because they help keep you alive. 407 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,320 They keep your blood normal. 408 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,000 They're just living on you. 409 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,000 And that's very normal. 410 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,380 Like, you know, we are a giant planet to them. 411 00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:54,680 But it is also interesting because once we're in the ground, like the body crumbles, the 412 00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:02,560 only thing that's left is bones and some material depending on how it degrades. 413 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:03,560 And that's it. 414 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:11,640 Like, you know, and I think the idea that energy, you know, we're given back to in some 415 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,880 form and it goes elsewhere. 416 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,640 And you know, I always like to imagine that, you know, like my family is still, you know, 417 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:18,640 watching over. 418 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:19,640 I don't ever think it's the pearly gates. 419 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:20,640 I love the idea. 420 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:26,300 Yeah, I love the idea of pearly gates more for a storytelling perspective than actually 421 00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:30,360 a real life because I would just hate to go to a place with pearly gates. 422 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,720 I was just like, this is not... 423 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:33,720 Here's your wings. 424 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:34,720 Yeah, I don't want wings. 425 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,480 I want like little like bat wings. 426 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,560 Like that's how I'm like, but I don't want to go to hell. 427 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:42,560 Like there's a choice. 428 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,360 Yeah, yeah, do you want the scaly wings or the little feathery ones? 429 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:47,360 Yeah. 430 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,960 Well, it's like reading like Dante's Inferno of like the many stages of hell. 431 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,280 And I'm like, no, I don't want wings. 432 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,480 Count me out. 433 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:03,480 But I do think like, you know, writing stories about, you know, human beings, especially 434 00:29:03,480

--> 00:29:09,160 in like fantasy and like sci-fi and sort of like all these like different genres. 435 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,040 Isn't that like, it's kind of like the bee's knees, isn't it? 436 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,960 It's the weird like, why? 437 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,640 Because you're a very nerdy person. 438 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,240 Like, you know, like, was that always the case? 439 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:26,560 Like, you know, were you always like attracted to really nerdy things growing up? 440 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,280 I definitely found kind of safety in some of the nerdy things. 441 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,920 Like math is dependable. 442 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:33,920 Science is dependable. 443 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,960 But I did just love like, I'm kind of a nature kid. 444 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,160 I love to run around outside. 445 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,640 We'd go camping a lot. 446 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,760 Climb trees barefoot, you know, that whole thing. 447 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,720 My name is literally Rain. 448 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:55,960 And so I think kind of leaning into that, but I definitely got, I mean, like I said, 449 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,680 the whole like one of the story that I'm working on right now, the concept behind it is that 450 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,520 there's like multiple dimensions. 451 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:10,840 And there is in between the dimensions, there is yet another dimension, the dream dimension. 452 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,240 So certain people can access it. 453 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,840 And there's other ways other people can get other people to access it. 454 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,160 But it's a in the book, I literally call it a nearly non physical space. 455 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,040 And there's like a meeting of the minds in this space. 456 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:34,200 And so though we have this character who's like hopping between worlds in hopes of finding 457 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:40,840 a cure for her father, it's a hereditary trait to be able to access the stream dimension. 458 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:47,360 And so you get to explore that funky little blip in science, right? 459 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,920 Because you can be sure about something to 99.99%. 460 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:57,840 You know, like when you run a test and you make a claim about how well I'm making something 461 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,800 up, but like, let's how well like a drug works, like right drug efficacy, you could be like, 462 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:02,800 oh, 95%. 463 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,680 95% of the time, that's pretty darn good. 464 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,620 And yet there's this like 5% window of uncertainty, right? 465 00:31:09,620 --> 00:31:12,000 And that kind of exists. 466 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:18,520 That's the beauty of science is that there's always this little room to like little, little 467 00:31:18,520

--> 00:31:21,080 sliver you can wiggle through. 468 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,480 And suddenly like break open all the unknown, right? 469 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:34,640 And I think, I think my, you know, I'm losing my father brain at the time needed to dive 470 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,720 into the unknown. 471 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:45,080 And I did not grow up religious and grew up very, you know, yes, with energies and spirituality 472 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,280 a little bit with like, we, you know, we live our lives and our bodies go back and we help 473 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:56,360 feed the earth very, you know, Lion King, circle of life vibes. 474 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:02,520 And but there's this idea of like, I don't really, it's got to be this way. 475 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,640 You can't lose someone, right? 476 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,840 And we know that they exist in your memory. 477 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,040 And then they address, I mean, I'm a pretty vivid dreamer. 478 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,400 So like my dad shows up in my dreams quite often. 479 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:19,080 And I, and I ended up kind of putting these ideas together of like, there's gotta be this, 480 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,080 there's something. 481 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:25,120 So I'm not going to call it like a pearly gate kind of deal, but why not a dream dimension 482 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,720 with portals in it and, you know, make it fun. 483 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:36,080 But I don't know, I love this idea that there's still access to the people that you've lost 484 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:41,520 because you're an amalgamation of every experience you have. 485 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:47,280 And so you have these people around you and they, they tell you things and they share 486 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,040 their favorite songs with you. 487 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,040 And that time you got stuck in a ditch on the side of the road. 488 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:57,880 Like, you know, you have all these experiences that you get to live through with people and 489 00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,320 those, those like live in you. 490 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,160 They're part of your, your makeup. 491 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,160 Right. 492 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,800 And so if they exist there, are they ever really gone? 493 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:10,480 Like, you know, you start playing this little, this little game and yeah. 494 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:11,480 Yeah. 495 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,480 I love that. 496 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:20,480 I mean, like it's so true to think it's there anyone actually gone fully, especially, and 497 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:21,480 yeah. 498 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:22,480 And you just made me think of the X-Files. 499 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:23,480 I don't know why. 500 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:29,560 Cause the scene, yeah, there's a scene with like Dana Scully, her dad dies and then she 501 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:36,520 keeps seeing him in her dreams for like, and I, I love that idea that like, you know, people 502 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,000 come back in, in your dreams. 503 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,760 I mean, it's like the human. 504 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,000 So I think there's like a study of something as well with the human brain, which is when 505 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,040 you're asleep, your brain will recognize faces. 506 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,200 So it will call it, gather all the information, whether you are aware of it or not, and then 507 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,880 dump it all onto the back of like the, the neurons and like store all these random faces 508 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,240 and you're like, I don't know this face. 509 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,240 Where did this face come from? 510 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,880 And vice versa, but it's all people you've seen, like at some point in your life or faces 511 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,160 that sort of merge into one another to create a similar face. 512 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:19,080 But I think there's also the study of like the mind, like with memories recreates every 513 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,080 time. 514 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,640 Like there's like, it's never the original memory. 515 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:30,640 It's like you're extracting like this thought and it's recreating the memory from scratch. 516 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,040 Like you're repainting the picture. 517 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,040 Yeah. 518 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,040 Yeah. 519 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,040 I feel like I've heard of it. 520 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,360 It might be like, I probably read different things, but I feel like I've heard something 521 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,360 along those lines. 522 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,480 It is so interesting. 523 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:49,040 I was actually talking to my cousin the other day and right, we lost our grandfather and 524 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:55,320 she's like, I was remembering your wedding and I just pictured Opa there. 525 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,520 And I was, I had to remind myself he wasn't actually there. 526 00:34:58,520 --> 00:34:59,520 Right. 527 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,960 And then I'm, I'm, I know I do that too. 528 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:08,520 Suddenly, like I will write people into memories where it's like, Oh, that person wasn't actually 529 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,680 there, but they're a loved one. 530 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:11,680 Right. 531 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,280 So you, you rewrite them into the memory. 532 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,560 I think, I think it's kind of brilliant. 533 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,160 It's like your brain's like, Oh, you can't, you don't like that. 534 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,160 They weren't there. 535 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:21,160 Cool. 536 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,680 Let's rewrite it because why not? 537 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:25,680

Yeah. 538 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,520 You can pull them in and yeah, I don't know. 539 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,360 It's like a superpower. 540 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,560 I think it's a great superpower because especially when you've got people like really like in 541 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,800 your life and I've noticed that even like being married, like suddenly you're automatically 542 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,160 putting your partner into literally everything you've done, even when you were young and 543 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,280 you're like, but you weren't there. 544 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,600 Like there was no possible way I knew you back then. 545 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,360 So why are you there? 546 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,920 But that's like what your brain does because the moment like someone's important to you, 547 00:35:54,920 --> 00:36:00,320 it kind of slots them in to where you want them in the narrative. 548 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:05,920 And I can understand why, like when you get older and you hear people talk about memories 549 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:12,720 and like some people are fantastic or remembering every specific data and then others just go, 550 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:16,360 oh, now were you there? 551 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:17,360 Yeah. 552 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:18,360 I can't. 553 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,360 I think you were there. 554 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,280 Like, and you're like, I'm not, I wasn't there at all. 555 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:24,280 I'm going to be that old person. 556 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,280 I'm pretty sure you were. 557 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:26,280 Yeah. 558 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,480 It's like forever in here. 559 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,640 But I mean, like, you know, when you were young, let's take you back in time to little 560 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,560 you and just to watch our spirit. 561 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,280 Because you have a brother. 562 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:42,280 I have two. 563 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:43,280 You have two brothers. 564 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:44,280 Yeah. 565 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:45,280 And you're the youngest or? 566 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,280 I'm in the middle. 567 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:47,280 Oh, you're a middle child. 568 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:48,280 Yeah. 569 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:49,280 Was that a fun time? 570 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,560 It sounds kind of almost similar. 571 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:52,560 Are you one of two? 572 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,360 I'm one of, yeah, I'm one of just me and my brother. 573 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:57,360 So yeah. 574 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:58,360 Are you the younger one? 575 00:36:58,360 --> 00:36:59,360 I am the younger. 576 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:00,360 Interesting. 577 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,800 Because actually what you said before about kind of playing like the mediator on everybody's 578 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,440 emotions, I felt like that's kind of the, the role I ended up playing. 579 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,440 I was like, oh, I'll be the middle of the bridge. 580 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,240 Maybe it's the second child syndrome. 581 00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:12,680 Maybe it's like a child syndrome. 582 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:13,680 I don't know. 583 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:24,600 But it's also interesting, I think, being the only girl, because I had such different 584 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,760 relationships with my brothers because my older brother was super nerdy. 585 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:34,200 And we got on in a very like, oh, we read these books and we share bookish things. 586 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,200 And you're smart. 587 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,560 And I'm trying to be smart, right? 588 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,080 Because I'm three years younger and trying to pretend I know what's going on. 589 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,600 And then my younger brother, who's three years younger, like we were just goofballs and I 590 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:49,640 was like, oh, you're fun to play with because you'll actually like, if I want to play with 591 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,280 dolls or something, he didn't care, right? 592 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,920 His little kid, it's just fun. 593 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,240 And so I got to like bounce around between relationships. 594 00:37:56,240 --> 00:38:01,320 But yeah, you definitely to become the little like, the little fixer, you know, anytime 595 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:08,560 someone's unhappy, you're trying to constantly bring everybody back down to even keel, you 596 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:09,560 know? 597 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:16,560 I mean, was it was it also weird, you know, like being the only girl because it's like, 598 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,280 you know, was there like different pressures that were put on you versus like your brothers? 599 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,560 Not really. 600 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,400 I think my parents, they were pretty very liberal. 601 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,320 They're very like, you know, they're they wanted to be hippies. 602 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,080 They're a little behind the times, but they just like played along and pretended they 603 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,560 were in the hippie era. 604 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:46,360 And you know, they were very you guys get to do, you know, if you're into sports or 605 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,800 you're into whatever, like we'll try to help you do whatever you enjoy doing. 606 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:57,880 So I didn't actually mind it, but I do think it was it kind of naturally dictated some 607 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:04,280 of the relationship stuff because like my older brother would never probably pick on 608 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,960 me the way maybe an older sister would, you know, like he was never like physically rough 609 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,600 with me or anything like that. 610 00:39:11,600 -->

00:39:14,200 And I wonder if that's because I was a girl. 611 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:15,200 Possibly. 612 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,680 He's also just a big teddy bear. 613 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,160 So like, so am I just been him? 614 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:20,160 I don't know. 615 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:21,160 I do. 616 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:27,160 Yeah, it's it's always like, because me and my brother fought not like a lot, but we used 617 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:32,280 to we used to fight like physically sometimes, which always seems surreal now because it's 618 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,600 like such a different person. 619 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,620 But yeah, like I used to like he was very he kept himself. 620 00:39:37,620 --> 00:39:44,640 So I was like my when we were both sort of like between like me being a kid and like 621 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,360 him just before he kind of became a teenager, we were very close. 622 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:54,040 And then the moment he became a teenager, like it was like, I've got cool friends and 623 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,240 I don't want to be hanging with my dorky little brother. 624 00:39:56,240 --> 00:40:00,880 You know, it's like that sort of like instigator. 625 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,440 And he was off dating and trying to date people. 626 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:05,960 I was not really interested in that. 627 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,240 So I was like, oh, yeah, whatever. 628 00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:11,640 Like, you know, I want to play games and, you know, no doubt and enjoy things. 629 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,880 So I was like the shift. 630 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,560 And I think it's always like, like, we're a lot closer now than we used to be. 631 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:27,040 But, you know, I also always have, you know, have an arm's length relationship with, you 632 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,800 know, like the by immediate family, because I think it's like, you know, it's I've always 633 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,040 been the one who does a lot and likes doing things. 634 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,680 And therefore, it's like easy to just be like, OK, well, you know, because they get if I 635 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:44,720 don't report in like which which sounds like a weird thing, but they just kind of go, what's 636 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:45,720 happening? 637 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:50,200 And but every time like we'd be doing something, I would just be like, why are you doing that? 638 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,600 Like, why don't you just slow down and do something normal? 639 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,640 And I was like never able to sit still and do one thing. 640 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:03,200 I had to do like 20 things at once and, you know, have a very interesting life, which 641 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,160 was always like because I like playing. 642 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,600 I liked doing things. 643 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,320 And that was like how my brain just like gathered the information. 644 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:18,680 And I sort of see it with like, you know, how like parenting is done, especially when 645 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:26,760 you have like a kid on the spectrum, like how like good versus bad is. 646 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,840 And back in the 90s, I think like my parents did the best because there was no information 647 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,040 like there wasn't the Internet where you could, you know, research a bunch of stuff and try 648 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,400 and work out what was going on. 649 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:41,000 They sort of like had a book and that was as far as their knowledge got. 650 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,960 So they were like, here's what the doctors have given us. 651 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,440 We're going to work off that. 652 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,800 Like and I think that kind of made it. 653 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:53,040 But then it's also like, you know, like out of that from me going to hospital so much 654 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:58,880 like my brother developed hypochondria, you know, like and OCD and a whole bunch of other 655 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:04,760 things that I think at the time my parents didn't think much of until it manifested. 656 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:10,120 And they just kind of let it fester until it was like, oh, OK, that actually is a problem. 657 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,880 And it's not just like him overreacting to like concerns. 658 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,880 So I think there's always like it's the balancing act of when you've got a child that needs 659 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:24,640 a lot of attention at like certain points in their life, but spread that love and like 660 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,800 attention equally, which is the hard thing. 661 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:27,800 So hard. 662 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,080 I think, you know, my brother, he was like my older brother, he was like so naturally 663 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,800 just like great at school, perfect grades, that whole thing. 664 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,560 And I was OK, you know, like not bad at school. 665 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,680 But you know, I felt like I had to like try harder and it just came so naturally to him. 666 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:45,960 And that could just be that's how it felt. 667 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,200 And I might not be right. 668 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,040 But I was heavily into sports. 669 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,080 I did gymnastics from age like six through college. 670 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,680 So that's like I was just like, oh, drop off at the gym. 671 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:06,480 Like that was, you know, so I think my parents were into it for me for my sake. 672 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,280 But they weren't the parents that were there watching, you know. 673 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:17,760 And then my little brother, I think he's the one that unfortunately like kind of

traded 674 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,720 between my older brother and my little brother between like whose whose things were slipping 675 00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:23,920 through the cracks. 676 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,520 I think honestly, sports was my like saving grace because I had a team, I had a coach. 677 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:33,560 You kind of get like a pseudo family on the side that's, you know, who you're venting 678 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,240 to, who's quasi parenting you. 679 00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:40,760 But yeah, it's so tough. 680 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:48,240 You know, because my older brother, you know, he went through like a kind of depressive 681 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:52,040 thing around like the end of his high school. 682 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:58,960 I think I noticed it and actually went to my school counselor about it because I was 683 00:43:58,960 --> 00:43:59,960 worried about him. 684 00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:03,560 And that's how my mom got clued in because then the school counselor went to other school 685 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,720 counselor and taught me, you know, and all of a sudden she's like, how is suddenly a 686 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:09,560 problem and you get these. 687 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:14,800 So but I mean, I also can't imagine having three kids, you know, in three different schools 688 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,600 and balancing all that. 689 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,600 But yeah, it's tough. 690 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:20,600 Yeah. 691 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:26,760 I mean, like it's also just kind of like the thing of parenting when you've got multiple 692 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,280 kids because it's not easy. 693 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:35,360 Well, I think it's also like, you know, social behavior and everything is and depression 694 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,960 like, you know, don't go hand in hand always. 695 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,480 Like you can be do really well in grades and not be happy. 696 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,160 Like, you know, like and it's like a chemical imbalance. 697 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:52,640 I think we have a much better like structure of it now than we were kids, which like you 698 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,920 can just feel sad. 699 00:44:54,920 --> 00:45:03,560 Like you know, and I do think like, you know, it was like always makes me laugh, particularly 700 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,160 from my mom's generation where she just goes, oh, your generation just there's too much 701 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,840 worrying, there's too much stress, there's too much like feeling concerned. 702 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:16,080 Like you know, back in back in my day, no one was like back in your day, everyone just 703 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,240 like bottled it up and didn't let it because it was postwar. 704 00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:22,300 Like everyone was just like you were the boomer children. 705 00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:28,520 So you came out of like parents who were dealing with World War One and World War Two and you 706 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,720 know, like, you know, the Cold War eras and all that. 707 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:37,360 And so there was a huge concern, like about safety words versus now, like, you know, they 708 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,800 talk about how safe it is to, you know, to live now. 709 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,520 But I'm like, it's still kind of like, there's still a lot of questionable like you. 710 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:51,640 I mean, I think it's statistically safer, right? 711 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:59,720 But we're going to get into a new topic now because it's probably statistically safer. 712 00:45:59,720 --> 00:46:03,680 And I would fact check that I don't actually know. 713 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,880 But I would imagine. 714 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:12,140 But you're getting so much negative input from external sources, right? 715 00:46:12,140 --> 00:46:18,480 So I mean, when you turn if you turn on the news, it's what 99% negative. 716 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:24,000 It's just if there's nothing, it's not like, oh, and local woman saved cat from tree and 717 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,160 I'm like, oh, where's that story? 718 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,080 Like those, it's just that's you're not getting the positive. 719 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,680 Often you're either getting negative news. 720 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:38,040 I feel like on social media, there's lots of like, I mean, I don't have Facebook anymore, 721 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:43,600 really, but I know there's a lot of like propaganda stuff on there and then and then advertisements 722 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,920 and all the things you're coming up short on. 723 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:46,920 Right. 724 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:54,040 I mean, so there is a I think I do think that kind of plays into our modern mental health 725 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,040 crisis. 726 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,040 Yeah. 727 00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:03,840 I think it's also like we're we're so quick to misinform ourselves with with like buzz 728 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:08,680 quick things and you know, like I blame Instagram, I blame, you know, all these things. 729 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,920 It's like go and find information if you want to know about the world. 730 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:12,920 It's not hard. 731 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:19,720 And I mean, like, you know, the the we talk about like, in Australia, we talk about how 732 00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:25,440 safe it is, you know, since the nineties and since we banned guns and all that. 733 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,760 And like, people still have knives. 734 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:28,880 People still have knives. 735 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:36,000 Like the other day, there was like seven people died in a stabbing attack in like Bondi in 736 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,000 Sydney. 737 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,560 And it was just like, that still happens. 738

00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:45,480 Like the amount just because you remove one thing doesn't automatically mean, you know, 739 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:50,560 that and there's there's sort of no what I find baffling a little bit is, you know, like, 740 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:56,600 we you know, and I was watching a YouTuber the other night, who's Russian, who's a very 741 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:03,120 funny like he'll I think he lives in the UK, and a very Russian funny Russian comedian, 742 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:08,520 who a lot of the time will dress up as a woman and troll people on Omegle to see if they 743 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,880 can work out if he's a woman or not. 744 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:13,500 But he did this. 745 00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:19,920 Like he had this girl come on and go, oh, we should hate you because you're Russian. 746 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:20,920 And it's like, why? 747 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,600 And it's like, because Russians are bad because they're invading Ukraine. 748 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:29,040 And I was like, yes, but that doesn't mean that, like, that's like saying all Germans 749 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,520 are bad because they, you know, have Nazi propaganda. 750 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:39,520 Like that doesn't equate to like, the percentage that is like, you know, because there's Nazis 751 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:40,520 still exist. 752 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:45,520 Like, you know, people think that, oh, World War Two once ended, they all disappeared and 753 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:46,520 dispersed. 754 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,920 Like, they, I think it's like, they still happen, like, there's collectives that they 755 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:57,680 joke about all the time, which happen in, you know, pockets around the world. 756 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,640 But I think we look through this very distinct lens. 757 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,240 And I think this is also where it goes to storytelling. 758 00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:11,080 And the power of storytelling is a lot of real stories, like, that are told through 759 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:16,880 like news media and all, you know, like, as you say, like, almost like a pivoting and 760 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,480 sad and depressive stories. 761 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:23,520 They told through a very specific way to make you hate as well. 762 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:24,520 Oh, absolutely. 763 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:29,280 I mean, and you'll get into your own channel, right? 764 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:39,320 So when I first created TikTok, which anyway, I asked my little brother, right? 765 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,240 Because he's Gen Z and I'm technically millennial. 766 00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:43,560 I'm like, how do I use this app? 767 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,160 And he's like, or how do I, what did I say? 768 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:52,360 Something like, how do I, like, make this app work for me or something? 769 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:53,960 Like, how do I maybe just use the app? 770 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,120 And he's like, you don't use the app. 771 00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:57,120 The app uses you. 772 00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,480 And I was like, oh, my God, like, what does that mean? 773 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,360 And I went on it and there you're because it doesn't know you at all yet. 774 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,360 You haven't been on it before. 775 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:12,680 It's a lot of like political stuff and you can't always tell what you're getting handed 776 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:19,720 right away because you're getting some, some something, maybe talking about women's rights 777 00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:21,160 and you're like, oh, I kind of agree with that. 778 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,200 And you're like, ew, it got weird and creepy. 779 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,920 And you're like, oh, I got him on like some conservative page. 780 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:31,480 And sorry not to diss listeners, but like, I think a lot of these listeners listen as 781 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:32,480 a liberal. 782 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:39,200 Like, okay, like back out of that real quick. 783 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:40,800 And yeah, it is. 784 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:48,040 It's so there's a lot of manipulative language use, right? 785 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,360 Because at first I'm like, oh, I think I think this is liberal. 786 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:52,760 Like I think I'm agreeing. 787 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:54,820 And then it's it's not. 788 00:50:54,820 --> 00:51:00,560 And I've seen it on the flip side too, where you're like, what are those things called 789 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,200 like a stitch or something, right? 790 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:06,120 So you're getting like three seconds of a conservative video. 791 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:07,680 Someone says something just like heinous. 792 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,240 And then it's like, let's talk about this. 793 00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:13,160 And so you're like, oh, this is a person who's going to like break this down. 794 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,160 Okay, that's not actually a bad thing, but you're just getting fed all this stuff until 795 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:29,160 you finally get funneled to now everything I see is pro choice, very liberal and Warren, 796 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:30,440 you know, free Gaza. 797 00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,320 Those are all the things I see now. 798 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:37,920 I no longer see the other side because it's clearly I'm swiping away from the things that 799 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:39,960 don't work for me. 800 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,200 Maybe sticking around a little bit longer and then on the things that do vibe with me. 801 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:48,640 And then it like funnels you into your side and you live in your own little bubble, right? 802 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:50,280 Yeah, circulating your own stuff. 803 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,960 I'm circulating in the

side that I feel comfortable with. 804 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:55,160 Feels all good and happy. 805 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,600 But someone else is circulating in the other bubble. 806 00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:58,600 Yes. 807 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,760 And now we are enemies, like weirdly. 808 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:01,760 Yeah. 809 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:02,760 And maybe we're just neighbors. 810 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:07,920 And it's really interesting now because, and I have this problem with people now all the 811 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:13,520 time, which is no one is open to, you may like political debate or debating, which was 812 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:19,880 a huge thing before the internet where you'd go into class and you would just debate topics. 813 00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,880 You would, you know, like it was a huge thing where you would just be like, oh, I don't 814 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:24,880 like cheese. 815 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:25,880 Why? 816 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:27,440 You know, all these fun things. 817 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,600 And now I feel like no one even challenges. 818 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,360 It's like you, you don't like cheese. 819 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,800 We all hate you, you know, for blah reason. 820 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:40,960 It's like, well, I think it's because the, like, I've sometimes wondered like what things 821 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:41,960 if, right. 822 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:49,720 Cause I have a very writer gram, writer focused social media presence. 823 00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:54,280 So then to, if I'm going to put my political views on there, which by the way, if you read 824 00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,080 my writing, it's in there. 825 00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:57,080 Yeah. 826 00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:02,760 I'm not like, I feel like fine with it there, but on the internet, on Instagram, on tech 827 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:11,040 talk, do I want to get a thousand comments that are telling me I'm wrong or saying screw 828 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:12,040 you? 829 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,040 I mean, no. 830 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:14,040 Right. 831 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:20,720 So I think it's also scary to debate because the, the, the people on these apps and I think 832 00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:29,440 it's just the nature of living in like click bait, quick scroll world is that if you don't 833 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:34,160 know what you're talking about, you just can get shot down so fast. 834 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:40,320 So then you're like, do I become an expert so that I can debate perfectly or as close 835 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:45,120 to perfectly as possible or realize I am not an expert. 836 00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:52,280 So just by, you know, so aside from wearing like my Palestinian flag pin, then, then that's 837 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:58,600 all I'm going to do because I, do you have the mental capacity to get like ridiculed 838 00:53:58,600 --> 00:53:59,800 by the internet at large? 839 00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:00,800 Yeah. 840 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:01,800 I personally don't. 841 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,360 That's not like a, I don't want to step into that fire on a Tuesday. 842 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:06,360 Like I just, right. 843 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:12,240 You know, so I think that's, that is also part, I, maybe that's just me, but I do think 844 00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:17,120 there's some fear with speaking up, right? Cause if you say the wrong thing, you could 845 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:21,160 get, you could lose your platform. 846 00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:29,520 And if you are trying to turn art somehow into sales, which is a sad thing to like have 847 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,200 to whittle something down to, but it's true, right? 848 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:37,240 If you want, if you want to be able to live off your art, you're living off of a product 849 00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:40,760 and then you've got to protect that little platform that you have in order to maybe sell 850 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:42,320 like product. 851 00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:48,880 So then do you go for the shots fired, the political debate on your, you know, podcast, 852 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:54,240 maybe, you know, you decide like, ah, can you, can you, do you use sugar coat? 853 00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:55,240 Do you? 854 00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:56,240 Well, yeah. 855 00:54:56,240 --> 00:54:59,120 And it's always interesting because like, you know, people, people ask me that all the 856 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:00,120 time. 857 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:01,120 It's like, do you sugar coat? 858 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:02,920 And I always go, fuck no. 859 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:03,920 Like, yeah. 860 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:10,520 But I think it's also like, once you set up a brand and you know what you are, it's easier. 861 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:15,360 But I think it's also like, I'm, you know, cause I also get everyone else has different 862 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,880 like products and how they sell and you know, I'm not saying everyone needs to sell like 863 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:19,880 I do. 864 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:26,560 And you know, and I'm a big believer of just making something the best it could be like, 865 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:34,780 you know, and I think a lot of the time we live, we live with the, you know, the rose 866 00:55:34,780 --> 00:55:40,800 colored glasses on and I love tearing them off because I'm such a realist, like, you 867 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,120 know, cause I love, you know, when it comes to stories, I love absurdism. 868 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,200 I love like surrealism. 869 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:51,680 I love science fiction, fantasy, horror, you know, like all these sort of different genre 870 00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:57,400 pushes to tell interesting perspectives of what we can do. 871 00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:05,360 I think, you know, the interesting thing that I look about like old

theater and old writers 872 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,480 is a lot of them were just misunderstood people. 873 00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,680 Like, you know, no one bothered to get to know them. 874 00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,960 So they were drinking in pubs on their own whittling away at ideas and being absolutely 875 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:16,960 miserable. 876 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:22,480 Like, you know, they had horrible lives, you know, and you sort of think this is like Victorian 877 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:27,280 era and you know, like, you know, predating and it's like, you know, some of these people 878 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:32,480 lived in the 1900s and they still like were very miserable on all the stories they were 879 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:33,480 working in. 880 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:40,040 And it's so interesting now to compare that to where we are now. 881 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,600 It's like, you know, we've got all these platforms, we've got all these things where it's like, 882 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:47,720 you know, internet, you know, it's like that compared to, you know, when we were kids where 883 00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:51,720 it was dial up and, you know, you were waiting 10 minutes to get even on the internet and 884 00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:53,480 work it out. 885 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:59,680 And I think that always makes me just go, well, no wonder people, you know, because 886 00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:04,800 like the percentage of like population that we were kids was like 4 billion. 887 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:10,280 Like 30 years ago, 4 billion people existed on this planet. 888 00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,280 And then 15 years later, it was 6 billion. 889 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,240 And now it's 8.2, which is insane. 890 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:25,240 Like it's a massive population and like the, you know, like the statistics is that we do 891 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:26,240 not have the resources. 892 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:32,640 Like we do not have the money to like, you know, trading goods, everything. 893 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:36,860 And that's why a lot of like the time, you know, the cost of living goes up, the cost 894 00:57:36,860 --> 00:57:38,320 of like increase. 895 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:45,840 And it's funny because like in the, I think it was like in the 90s, I'm going to say, 896 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,480 in Australia, universities were free. 897 00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:49,480 They were all free. 898 00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:51,640 So education, college was free. 899 00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:57,280 It was all, and then suddenly they decided, no, we're going to make people pay for this. 900 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,280 And I was like, well, it's already hard enough to get a job. 901 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:05,880 So now you're going to put expenses on literally the thing that helps you get a job. 902 00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:07,920 And like, you know, it's the same with art. 903 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:12,620 Like, you know, you could go to the movies for like $6 in the 90s. 904 00:58:12,620 --> 00:58:17,640 Now it's like 30 and you're like, how does that equate, you know, to go to the movies 905 00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,800 to get popcorn, get chips, you know, chips, everything ends up being a hundred bucks. 906 00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:26,000 Like, you know, and I'm like, how was that fair? 907 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:30,480 Like, and I understand now, like one of my exes, she was one of four and I understood 908 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,040 why her family never went to the cinema. 909 00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,240 They made a homemade cinema because it was cheaper. 910 00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:42,280 So they would just buy a $20 blue ray or a DVD, watch that at home and feed the kids. 911 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:49,240 Because rather than spending $200 to go as a family of six. 912 00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:50,600 Blockbuster family. 913 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:51,600 Yeah. 914 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:58,200 Like, did you feel like, because your dad was also living on the poverty line, you know, 915 00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:04,560 when he was younger, did you feel like you were sort of like, had that mentality of like 916 00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,040 save and be mindful of finance? 917 00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:09,040 Yes. 918 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,040 Yes and no. 919 00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:13,040 Yeah. 920 00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:19,480 I think my growing up, I was very lucky, very privileged. 921 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,080 I did not ever have to worry about food. 922 00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:24,080 Right. 923 00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,920 Like I knew I was going to get dinner and that's, you know, like, I don't know if that's 924 00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:32,800 like, I think my dad knew there was going to be dinner, but it was like just going to 925 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:34,400 be enough, you know? 926 00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:38,880 And like I knew there were always going to be some snacks in the cupboard. 927 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:39,880 So that's different. 928 00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:45,720 But I did with my parents, you know, with my dad being 107, my mom was only one of two, 929 00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,840 but her parents are immigrants. 930 00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:54,960 And so they came over and, you know, struggled to get traction with one business after the 931 00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,880 next. 932 00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:02,000 You know, as both of my grandparents, you know, one passed away, one has Alzheimer's. 933 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:07,320 Like I looked at their finances in my early twenties to try to help with some of that. 934 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:08,560 It is not great. 935 01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:13,200 So I think with growing up with that, just, you know, like you eat everything on your 936 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:20,680 plate and you don't waste, we don't waste any food that was in, like there's no waste. 937

01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,560 But we did get to spend money on things that I don't think my parents had access to. 938 01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,000 Like I was, I did sports, right? 939 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:28,600 That's not cheap. 940 01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:34,400 So it's like, if you love it, we can make it happen. 941 01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:39,600 I did start like working really early and I was definitely like a little money hoarder. 942 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:49,000 And until honestly, quite recently, my spouse and I weren't making oodles of money. 943 01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:55,640 You know, we always had roommates, always living in like either shared housing or apartments, 944 01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:56,640 even as a married couple. 945 01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,720 And it was just like, you know, sometimes you want your own space and whatnot, but we 946 01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:02,720 were, we were fine with it. 947 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,960 But we were saving a lot. 948 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:11,640 And I think, you know, he grew up with a similar sort of scenario of his parents weren't super 949 01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:16,400 wealthy growing up and they just taught you how to save and pocket, you know, be smart, 950 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:17,520 be smart with your spending. 951 01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:21,000 And I think that has stuck with me. 952 01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:27,040 And this is like, probably this is the first year of our lives where like we can go out 953 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:28,960 and get dinner and not like worry about it. 954 01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:35,600 But you know, like two years ago, it was like, you're looking at every price on the menu. 955 01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:36,600 Yeah. 956 01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,600 And you're judging it and you're going, can we actually afford this? 957 01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:47,480 Yeah, like I think that's also something that I know my parents have talked about. 958 01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:52,160 And like my mum ended up being like the breadwinner of a lot of like, she had a stable job and 959 01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:53,160 my dad freelanced. 960 01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:59,000 But he like, he put like, he put money away from me and my brother, which was like our 961 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,080 money and we could do whatever we wanted for it. 962 01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:07,800 But they also were like, they've also helped my brother out with buying a house, like, 963 01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:09,480 which I thought was incredible. 964 01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:14,280 Like, you know, so they've sort of reserved money because they're like, well, just in 965 01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,640 this crisis in this market, it's terrible. 966 01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:19,720 Don't, don't, don't bother. 967 01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:24,600 And they've sort of gone to both myself and Em and just been like, this isn't a loan that 968 01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:25,600 you pay off. 969 01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:26,600 Like

it's a gift. 970 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,880 Like this is your gift, which is a very courteous thing. 971 01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:33,640 Like I sort of look at my parents and go, that is really nice because they did not have 972 01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:34,640 that growing up. 973 01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:35,640 Yeah. 974 01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:40,260 But a lot of these is mum's money she's put away, like, and dad will have gotten some 975 01:02:40,260 --> 01:02:45,960 from freelance photography and stuff like that, but he never had like superannuation. 976 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:51,080 So a lot of his like back end money was just not going to his retirement. 977 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:54,280 It was just, he had to put away money for retirement. 978 01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:59,120 Or his mum has heaps of money in retirement now because she was in a well paid job and 979 01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:03,600 she salary sacrificed and put a lot of excess into it. 980 01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:07,800 And I'm sort of grateful that I've married someone who's quite money smart for like, 981 01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:13,600 and I sort of like say this in a very like, I've talked to a lot of people who have ADHD. 982 01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:18,480 It is a very strong thing where it's like, if you're diagnosed with that money is like, 983 01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:23,040 you know, because of the impulse, money is like a secondary, if I have money, I'll spend 984 01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:24,040 it. 985 01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:27,840 And so that's why I was like, the moment I got a card, the moment like it wasn't physical, 986 01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:31,680 I was like, it's easier not to spend because it's not there. 987 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,960 It's not like loose change in my pocket where I'm like, I can buy a drink and you know, 988 01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:35,960 like stuff like that. 989 01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:41,500 I can actually see the tally of it going down and be more hyper aware of what actually is 990 01:03:41,500 --> 01:03:44,160 going on. 991 01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:48,240 It doesn't make like the cost of things any less crippling because the cost of things 992 01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:51,680 are still going up massively. 993 01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:59,080 But it does have a better mentality switch in me to be like, okay, well this, you know, 994 01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:03,640 we'll save on this, but we'll do something nice if it's together or you know, like this 995 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:09,400 is the thing that is our passion or you know, or these are the things that are going to 996 01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:10,400 make us money. 997 01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:15,720 And you know, like this is where we can substitute whatever expense it's like, I mean, like this, 998 01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:20,760 it's a constant conversation because like it never, it's never gone. 999 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:22,560 And you go, well, how much have we saved? 1000 01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:29,840

And you know, like even, even a lot of like our stresses before leaving was how much money 1001 01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:30,840 did we have? 1002 01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:37,080 And you know, it was constantly because flights between Australia and Canada are really insanely 1003 01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:38,080 expensive. 1004 01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:43,800 And so, and we have to go back and I think that, you know, when we go back in September 1005 01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:48,240 for a wedding and then we come back here, that's going to be like another factor. 1006 01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:54,840 It's like you just chat about these things and you know, like it never really truly ends 1007 01:04:54,840 --> 01:05:02,720 to that like, but I do think that, you know, there is a nice aspect that you, as much as 1008 01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:07,080 you struggle, you can talk about it with your best friend to be like, this is just uncomfortable 1009 01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:13,240 and I don't like that we rely on this currency to live comfortable lives. 1010 01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:19,440 Like I hate that about the world where it's like everything I do has to be profitable. 1011 01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,480 It has to make, I wish you could just do it. 1012 01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:23,520 Like it was just fun. 1013 01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:27,080 Like it's like, you know, people gave you back in the day, I like your jacket. 1014 01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:29,160 I'll give you this cloth for your jacket. 1015 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,160 Like I wish that happened. 1016 01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:33,560 It's your cloth. 1017 01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:39,120 Yeah, I think my partner and I kind of lucked out. 1018 01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,200 We just, we met very young and we didn't have a ton. 1019 01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:47,880 We didn't have anything. 1020 01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:52,440 And see those conversations are, I mean, right out of college, we moved in together into 1021 01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:57,760 like a tiny little studio right across from like this hellish hospital. 1022 01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:01,160 It was terrible. 1023 01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:06,240 But you go through that with your best friend and you know, what can we afford? 1024 01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:11,840 And we always were trying to find the cheapest possible apartment we could that didn't smell 1025 01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:13,480 like cigarette smoke. 1026 01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:17,680 Like those are, you know, those like, you're playing these little games. 1027 01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:24,000 But yeah, it's, I don't think that conversation will ever really go away. 1028 01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:32,840 I mean, there are people, you know, like his parents or other people's parents that I know, 1029 01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:40,280 like next generation or generation above us or two above us who are very, have it together. 1030 01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:44,560 You know, like they've got their retirement there, you know, it's all, you know, and they're 1031 01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,240 still having these conversations. 1032 01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:48,760 I think it's just baked into us now. 1033 01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:53,680 Like we're so, we're so conscious of everything's an expense, right? 1034 01:06:53,680 --> 01:07:01,400 I mean, even, even with book writing, if I could, if I could just like, and some people 1035 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:06,840 do, they do the whole production themselves, not worried if it's going to pay off. 1036 01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:08,920 That is an option. 1037 01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,200 You know, you can, you can go your own way. 1038 01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:17,600 You can self publish and you might, you might make even, you know, um, you might make a 1039 01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:21,480 profit and you might be under and you get, you can play that. 1040 01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:26,640 And I'm not saying like the other path, traditional path is going to guarantee you an income, but 1041 01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:35,040 there's like a, I think I personally believe, I sound like that, um, who's the like miss 1042 01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:40,360 something miss universe or that like weird meme lives in my head. 1043 01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:42,520 Anytime I say that phrase. 1044 01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:50,680 Um, anyway, um, I think there's this, this higher chance of being able to make a profit 1045 01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:51,680 off of your work. 1046 01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:53,760 If you go that path. 1047 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,920 So that's the path I'm drawn towards to me. 1048 01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:01,040 It's the one that I feel like it opened the most doors. 1049 01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:05,360 Um, is that still tied back to money? 1050 01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:12,000 Probably, you know, even if I want to say it's not, I think deep down it is. 1051 01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:28,560 Uh, we can say we value a zillion things above money and yet the way money is allocated, 1052 01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,640 pick a country, any country almost right. 1053 01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:37,880 You can see where it is, you know, uh, here, you know, I guess we're in Canada. 1054 01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:39,080 So I don't know anything about Canada. 1055 01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:45,400 I'll be honest, but in the right, like we live in such a capitalistic society. 1056 01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:47,680 It's the sales. 1057 01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:54,640 That's, that's like the King of, you know, honestly, I think it's the driving force behind 1058 01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:55,840 a lot. 1059 01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,680 I think it's just so the driving force behind everything. 1060 01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:04,000 I think it's like, you know, capitalism is key. 1061 01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:09,680 It is like everything that everyone wants to do and, um, feed into. 1062 01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:11,960 And it's what society has governed. 1063 01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:19,120 This is the way we

live versus like how we should live, which is value things based on, 1064 01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,760 you know, cause like the, if you really go, it's like, how many hours did I put into this 1065 01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:28,160 and how many, and you go, Oh, this book took me like 2000 hours to write. 1066 01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:35,360 So it's worth $400, like say, say that like, you know, and someone would be like, I won't 1067 01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:36,360 buy that. 1068 01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:39,560 But if you go $20 per book, yeah, all right. 1069 01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:41,120 Like I'll buy, I'll buy one of those. 1070 01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:42,120 Yeah, sure. 1071 01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:43,600 Like if it's $20, sure. 1072 01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:48,000 And so the same goes to like, if someone paints, it's like, that's a 50 hour piece. 1073 01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:49,000 Okay. 1074 01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:50,000 How much is it? 1075 01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:51,000 Like four grand. 1076 01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:52,000 Yeah. 1077 01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:53,000 I'm not buying that. 1078 01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:54,000 So why? 1079 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,840 Because I put like 50 hours into it and it's a lot of like hard work when into it and it's 1080 01:09:57,840 --> 01:09:58,840 one of a kind. 1081 01:09:58,840 --> 01:09:59,840 Yeah. 1082 01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,280 But if it was 20, $30, I'll buy it. 1083 01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:10,840 And it's amazing what we put on worst of someone else's effort versus actually the amount of 1084 01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:11,840 effort. 1085 01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:18,160 Cause in the theory goes, like, I remember years ago, one of my friends was like, cause 1086 01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:21,040 we were comparing career things and I had had full-time jobs. 1087 01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:22,360 So money was never a real issue. 1088 01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,520 It was just like constantly getting week to week paycheck. 1089 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:30,780 So I was like, yeah, whatever, like I can do a side job and never bat my eyelid. 1090 01:10:30,780 --> 01:10:35,240 And he went, Oh, like, have you ever been paid for like all your like side gigs? 1091 01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,040 And I was like, Oh, maybe once or twice. 1092 01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:38,040 And he was like, how? 1093 01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:39,040 How? 1094 01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:40,040 How have you never been paid? 1095 01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:45,040 And I was like, Oh, I just, just if someone can't pay, I just accept it. 1096 01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:46,640 You know, it's just like, yeah, sure. 1097 01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:47,640 Whatever. 1098 01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:48,640 I was like, I'd rather not. 1099 01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:53,560 I'd rather be doing something than not, which is also like, well, a great mentality is also 1100 01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:54,560 a terrible mentality. 1101 01:10:54,560 --> 01:11:02,280 Like, and it's, it's something I had to learn

and get out of to make it, you know, like, 1102 01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:04,600 but it was how I envisioned back in the day. 1103 01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,000 Well, and it's so tricky with art, right? 1104 01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:14,080 Cause like, I have made money off of a handful of stories because I submit them to a magazine. 1105 01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:18,600 They're either in an online magazine or print and you get paid. 1106 01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,320 And sometimes it's, it's usually based on word count. 1107 01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:25,080 Eight to 10 cents a word, something like that, right? 1108 01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:30,400 They got to put some value on it, regardless of how long it took you to edit and create 1109 01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:31,400 your story. 1110 01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:32,400 Right? 1111 01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:37,960 So there, I have one piece that I feel like I like wrote in a day, came back and revised 1112 01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:41,160 it two or three times, submitted it. 1113 01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:42,160 Great. 1114 01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:48,040 And I had another one where it was like, my brain was melting for hours over this piece, 1115 01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:49,040 you know? 1116 01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:51,960 And it's still, and it was almost the same word count. 1117 01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:54,200 It was exactly the same amount on the check, you know? 1118 01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:55,200 So it's kind of funny. 1119 01:11:55,200 --> 01:12:04,120 But, but when it does come down to like, it's funky with, with jobs, you know, then there 1120 01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:05,120 is a difference. 1121 01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:09,720 Like you want to be making money, but like when it comes to your art, would you not have 1122 01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:13,640 painted the painting even if it took you 50 hours? 1123 01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:14,640 Yeah. 1124 01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:15,640 Right? 1125 01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,600 Like if you had to paint that painting, then you had to paint that painting. 1126 01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:26,240 And that's like, when I, sorry, when I really get down to it, like I have to write the book, 1127 01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:27,240 you know? 1128 01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:34,720 So when all is said and done, whatever happens with it, I had to write the book and I had 1129 01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:38,840 to make it really, really like to, to my standards, really, really good. 1130 01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:39,840 Right? 1131 01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,240 At least what I think is good. 1132 01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:46,760 Someone else is going to read this one day and be like, Oh, this book is shit. 1133 01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:48,560 But right. 1134 01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:52,920 So my mom, she's, my dad was more the science brain. 1135 01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:57,800 My mom was definitely more like the artsy brain. 1136 01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:07,000 And she one time was like, you know, we all know that struggling artist idea is your art 1137 01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,800 worth it to you to go for it? 1138 01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:12,840 Like she's like, obviously not starving, struggling. 1139 01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:13,920 Well, let's go for it. 1140 01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:15,640 You could like struggling. 1141 01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:19,680 You want to make sure you have a place to sleep and you have food. 1142 01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:20,680 Right. 1143 01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:28,840 But she's like, is your art worth it to you to, to forego this, you know, high salary? 1144 01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:32,800 Because when I, once I realized I didn't want to be a doctor, you start going like, well 1145 01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:36,880 then can I get like a nine to five so that in the afternoons I can write, like you start 1146 01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:41,200 playing different games of like, how am I going to balance these things? 1147 01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:46,880 And I was working part time doing kind of odd jobs. 1148 01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:52,640 And my mom's like, isn't that kind of the, like, if you get more hours to work on your 1149 01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:59,040 art, because you're doing quirky odd jobs, aren't you, aren't you winning the game? 1150 01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:00,040 Because you get to work on your art. 1151 01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:01,040 Isn't that the whole point? 1152 01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:10,600 And I, you know, you have to, you do eventually have to decide like, do I want to earn X salary? 1153 01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:17,160 You know, or do I care about my art more that I will take a hit on that dollar amount? 1154 01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:21,280 And that's a really hard, that's a really hard place to be. 1155 01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:27,320 But I think most people who are almost like narcissistically in love with their art, right? 1156 01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:28,320 A little bit. 1157 01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:29,320 Yeah. 1158 01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:35,120 Um, are going to be like, oh, hands down every time it's a hard choice to make day in and 1159 01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:42,400 day out, because we are feeling differently every minute or hour, every single day, right? 1160 01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:45,400 Sometimes we're super called to our art and sometimes we're like, nothing's working. 1161 01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:46,400 Yeah. 1162 01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:48,960 And so you're like, what am I doing with my life? 1163 01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:53,640 Um, but we take a step back and I, you know, think about my art. 1164 01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:57,160 I'm like, oh, I can't, I can't imagine not doing this. 1165 01:14:57,160 --> 01:15:00,760 And when I do, when I think of who I was five years ago before I started, and I think, could 1166 01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:02,920 I go back to that? 1167 01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:08,680 I'm like kind of repulsed, not that she wasn't cool, like, you know, 20, 24, 25 year old 1168 01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:10,720 brain was fine, whatever. 1169

01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:20,560 Um, but I don't want to ever be that I'm repressing this desire person again, you know? 1170 01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:21,760 Yeah. 1171 01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:23,560 I think that's the art. 1172 01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:24,560 Yeah. 1173 01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:25,560 It's that's so true. 1174 01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:31,000 It's something that's really lived by now is just keep doing the things that you love 1175 01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:37,440 versus like, you know, almost like fucking around with the things that you don't, you 1176 01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:40,440 know, that just kind of make everyone else happy. 1177 01:15:40,440 --> 01:15:46,360 Um, cause yeah, it's, it's always been like, I know, and I've never wanted to give up a 1178 01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:48,320 challenge like a love challenges. 1179 01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:52,440 I'm such a competitive person in terms of that, where it's like, if I can have a problem 1180 01:15:52,440 --> 01:15:54,360 to solve, I will try and solve it. 1181 01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:56,200 Um, and I'm very practical. 1182 01:15:56,200 --> 01:16:02,080 So I think a lot of that to manifest and I'm such a storyteller, like, um, like particularly 1183 01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:09,000 when it comes to interpreting ideas and, um, rejigging ideas, I'm such like, uh, I've got 1184 01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,920 a very like directorial and or creative hat. 1185 01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:16,400 So I love like reading people's stories and then sort of like going, how does this look? 1186 01:16:16,400 --> 01:16:21,000 And, you know, like visually playing it out, which always has been my strengths. 1187 01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:25,400 Um, because like a thousand stories are running through my head every day, which is like, oh, 1188 01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:27,640 I could write that or I could do that, you know? 1189 01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:32,360 And it's like, I think for me, it was like, you know, having that disconnect where it's 1190 01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:38,120 like, I can't organically write, like writing has only been more of a recent thing, probably 1191 01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:44,240 in the last like five years, have I actually been decent at writing and not feeling like 1192 01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:45,720 it was absolute shit. 1193 01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:54,200 Like, but, um, yeah, but I mean, like, you know, like, uh, I think that was sort of like 1194 01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:58,440 the thing that, you know, I would read books and I would take longer to read books, you 1195 01:16:58,440 --> 01:17:02,560 know, because words wouldn't, you know, match up because like the way the neurons were connecting 1196 01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:09,080 just took longer for it to, but like, and so like audio books, I love, I love audible. 1197 01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:14,240 I haven't, you know, please sponsor me, but it's, you know, it's a great, like, it's a 1198 01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:16,360 great platform for people who don't read. 1199 01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:22,000 I like, that's how I listened to a lot of books and I love, um, just like absorbing 1200 01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:23,000 stories. 1201 01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:27,120 I'm like, oh, if I can just like absorb all the stories, I'm a big classic literature 1202 01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:28,120 fan. 1203 01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:32,640 Um, but I also love like pulpy, pulpy ideas. 1204 01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:35,880 I'm for you because you also have dyslexia. 1205 01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:42,400 I mean, like, has that always been also hesitant to be like, I'm going to be a writer. 1206 01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:43,400 Yeah. 1207 01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:48,000 Um, cause when I, I remember finding that out and it's probably not, it probably doesn't 1208 01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:54,680 coincide exactly when I was, you know, vibing more with the math science route, but I felt 1209 01:17:54,680 --> 01:18:00,760 like it lent into that because it was like, Oh, this is why I suck at writing essays. 1210 01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:03,920 You know, like I don't, which is probably not true at all. 1211 01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:05,760 No, I think we just sucked at writing. 1212 01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:06,760 I just sucked at writing. 1213 01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:07,760 I didn't get it. 1214 01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:10,840 It took like until my senior year to finally get that. 1215 01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:12,240 I still don't get essays. 1216 01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,120 Like the way they're structured is awful. 1217 01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:15,120 It's yeah. 1218 01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:21,320 I think it's really tough when you want to be more of like a storyteller. 1219 01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:24,720 And then you're just like analyzing the wonderful stories you're reading. 1220 01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,040 You're like, I don't in an essay, right? 1221 01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,920 You're just like, it's not like life giving. 1222 01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:33,440 No, it's like, you're just condensing something. 1223 01:18:33,440 --> 01:18:34,920 I don't know. 1224 01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:43,960 Um, but with the dyslexia, it almost at that time felt like a kind of a relief to find 1225 01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:51,560 out, um, because I was, we got split up into like reading groups in fifth grade, you know? 1226 01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:56,400 And I was in not reading group A, not reading group B, but reading group C cause I was a 1227 01:18:56,400 --> 01:19:01,560 slower reader and I couldn't handle watershed down. 1228 01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:06,120 And then I found, Oh my God, as a fifth grader, I was so bored. 1229 01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:08,080 Watership down as a fifth grader. 1230 01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:09,080 Yeah. 1231 01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:10,080 Wow. 1232 01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:14,440 And I, we, because of this and it was, I think this is one of probably like I said, like 1233 01:19:14,440 --> 01:19:20,840 kind of a cool thing that happened is that

my reading group got to pick a different book 1234 01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:22,880 and we read this like class. 1235 01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:25,840 I don't remember what it was called, but it was like a classic monsters in the house kind 1236 01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:26,840 of book, right? 1237 01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:32,400 You know, kids stuck in the house, monsters and whoopie shoobie and spooky stuff. 1238 01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:38,720 And um, I was, I loved it, but I did, there was also this like shame tied into being in 1239 01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:45,480 reading group C. Um, and I think I carried that a little bit because then when you, you 1240 01:19:45,480 --> 01:19:49,800 know, for me, like, Oh, you can't, I am, why do I suck at writing or I'm, you know, the 1241 01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:53,520 slowest reader in seventh grade also, and feel like the slowest reader in eighth grade 1242 01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:54,840 also. 1243 01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:59,000 And so, but I'm really good at chemistry. 1244 01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:00,000 Cool. 1245 01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:01,000 Right. 1246 01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:07,880 So there was like, I think it did lend a hand in pushing me towards that end of the spectrum. 1247 01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:16,160 Um, but I, I think I let it be more of a crutch than it actually is. 1248 01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:22,720 I, cause I am, yes, I'm a slow reader and if I read out loud, I will flip flop words 1249 01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:24,760 like nobody's business. 1250 01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:34,680 But um, but it, I let it get in my way, I think more because this, like if there's the 1251 01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:35,680 story in you, right? 1252 01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,920 If you want to create a story, you want to create a project, your brain's going to find 1253 01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:41,400 a way to do it. 1254 01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:48,120 You might just mix up words a little bit and then there are so many cool tools to help, 1255 01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:50,680 um, help you unscramble them. 1256 01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:58,480 Um, but just like, like you, like I, I, my love for reading just like boomed with audible 1257 01:20:58,480 --> 01:21:02,640 and the library before audible. 1258 01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:04,680 Do you remember getting a little cassette tapes? 1259 01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:10,640 Yeah, I would drive around and we'd play like, just, I just was like, we'd go to the library 1260 01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:15,680 every week to go get new, my new audio book cassette tapes. 1261 01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:21,400 I remember they came in like really big containers and like, they were like giant plastic, like 1262 01:21:21,400 --> 01:21:25,400 half of it was plastic and then just tiny cassette tape was at the bottom. 1263 01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:26,400 You'd open it up. 1264 01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:34,400 It's like a double, a double thick VHS container with like a little cassette tape at the bottom. 1265 01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:35,400 Okay. 1266 01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:36,400 What's happening? 1267 01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:37,400 I know. 1268 01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:39,720 And then, but it was like great cause you'd, you'd listen to a story and then you'd be 1269 01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:44,600 like changed to side B and you switch it around. 1270 01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:51,000 Or if you ever listened to a series and they got a new reader, and you're like, no, what 1271 01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:52,000 happened? 1272 01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:53,000 Who is this? 1273 01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:59,840 I, it's, it's one, like I hated, um, when like audible would play some of the old ones 1274 01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:03,840 and then I'm like, no, it's like Stephen Fry is like Harry Potter for me. 1275 01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:05,640 Like that is just the voice of all the characters. 1276 01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:06,880 I'm like, I'm for this. 1277 01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:09,040 Like Stephen Fry, I just read Harry Potter for me. 1278 01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:15,960 But, um, yeah, it was like any other, you know, cause I think like the Hobbit, um, was 1279 01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:19,520 like the only book I could actually get through as a kid. 1280 01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:24,680 Like I could read consistently and, um, and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. 1281 01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:30,880 Those were the only two books until I was like 18 that I basically properly read. 1282 01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:33,560 The rest of it was through like cassettes and you know. 1283 01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:34,560 Yeah. 1284 01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:42,440 I think even, um, my, I'm born and raised near San Francisco and, um, we drove down 1285 01:22:42,440 --> 01:22:43,440 to San Diego. 1286 01:22:43,440 --> 01:22:48,160 I don't know, probably eight or nine hour drive, you know, three kids in the car. 1287 01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:49,160 So probably up to 12. 1288 01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:50,160 Yeah. 1289 01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:52,680 I was like, how many toilet breaks do you need? 1290 01:22:52,680 --> 01:23:01,400 And so, but I remember, um, that was my, was part of my introduction to Harry Potter, which 1291 01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:03,720 I wanted to read so bad. 1292 01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:07,120 Um, God, when did Harry Potter come out? 1293 01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:12,040 I feel like I was in like six something. 1294 01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:13,920 The book, the first book, I think it was 96. 1295 01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:17,560 Well, then I definitely wasn't old enough to read it, but I remember wanting to read 1296 01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:24,320 it in first or second grade because my older brother who was in fifth grade was just like 1297 01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:25,320 plowing through them. 1298 01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:27,760 He could read them easy peasy. 1299 01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:31,720 And we had to do before we could pick a book from the library, we had to open it in front 1300 01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:35,080 of our

teacher and read the first like two or three sentences. 1301 01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:36,760 And I kept tripping up. 1302 01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,120 She's like, that book is too advanced for you. 1303 01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:42,240 And I was so sad that I had to put Harry Potter back. 1304 01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:47,920 Um, but we were able to then listen to it on this road trip and it just like opened 1305 01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:48,920 up. 1306 01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:54,400 You know, I kind of, I'm right in that age range where you kind of age with those books, 1307 01:23:54,400 --> 01:24:00,440 probably a little bit young, but, um, I think they were still coming out. 1308 01:24:00,440 --> 01:24:02,760 So, you know, like I caught up to that age. 1309 01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:03,760 Yeah, it was like 2007. 1310 01:24:03,760 --> 01:24:04,760 I think it was the last book. 1311 01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:05,760 Yeah, that sounds about right. 1312 01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:06,760 Yeah, 2007 or eight. 1313 01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:13,960 I mean, and it's like, I know they, they were the thing. 1314 01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:14,960 It was like that. 1315 01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:15,960 Oh, I know. 1316 01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:16,960 It was so funny as well. 1317 01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:22,920 Like I have this conversation about like kids books and like teen books and teen pulp and 1318 01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:24,680 adult sci-fi and everything. 1319 01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:28,400 And I love sort of different like stuff all the time. 1320 01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:33,080 Um, and my mom's like, my mom is just like, oh, they're for kids. 1321 01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:34,080 Oh my God. 1322 01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:35,080 They're so good. 1323 01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:39,440 Um, like I was a big fan of a series of unfortunate events growing up. 1324 01:24:39,440 --> 01:24:43,880 Um, and, uh, I was really excited when Netflix did their adaptation. 1325 01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:48,800 Cause I also loved the Jim Carrey film, um, from like 2004. 1326 01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:54,520 And I remember like, I have it on, um, like DVD and would constantly watch it with my 1327 01:24:54,520 --> 01:25:00,920 brother and we'd just both nerd out over like Jim Carrey's insanely talented performances 1328 01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:01,920 in it. 1329 01:25:01,920 --> 01:25:05,000 Um, which it was clearly he was just having a blast. 1330 01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:09,800 Um, but I do remember like struggling with those books and I got up to book nine and 1331 01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:13,600 then like, I just remember like reading became so much more of a struggle because I was like 1332 01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:14,600 in my teens. 1333 01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:18,280 And so I was like, moment I hit my teens, it was harder to read because it was like 1334 01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:22,080 all these other distractions that are going on, like, you know, like school and stress 1335 01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:27,720 of school and you know, like suddenly, um, uh, I just, I just couldn't function. 1336 01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:29,040 Like I was like, this is too much. 1337 01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:31,920 So, but I used to always find solace in hiding in the library. 1338 01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:33,480 Like that was my go-to in school. 1339 01:25:33,480 --> 01:25:34,480 Oh my God. 1340 01:25:34,480 --> 01:25:35,480 Isn't it? 1341 01:25:35,480 --> 01:25:37,080 Like my librarian loved me. 1342 01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:41,440 Like I just chill and just like flick through because I was like, love the picture books, 1343 01:25:41,440 --> 01:25:46,320 like the old science books with lots of pictures and then just read the small description underneath 1344 01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:49,360 and be like, oh, okay, like, um, this is about dinosaurs. 1345 01:25:49,360 --> 01:25:53,480 This is about like evolution or you know, like, um, things like that. 1346 01:25:53,480 --> 01:25:56,280 So that was kind of like where I gained a lot of my knowledge, but then a lot of it 1347 01:25:56,280 --> 01:26:02,080 was also like TV and audio books when they became a thing and my parents were like, like 1348 01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:05,280 it got to, I don't know if this happened to you as well, but I remember they got to a 1349 01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:08,160 stage where they were just like, how do you know so much? 1350 01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:10,880 I'm like, oh, I learned it off this show or I learned it here. 1351 01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:12,680 And they were like, huh. 1352 01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:13,880 Cause they were both book readers. 1353 01:26:13,880 --> 01:26:18,320 Like they just came straight from books, like reading books would never a problem for them. 1354 01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:23,040 Um, and like, I remember the first time I told them, I'm like, I got John Wyndham, like 1355 01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:25,480 Dave the Triffids and the Midwich Cuckoos. 1356 01:26:25,480 --> 01:26:29,040 Um, both my parents were like, oh, they're like, they're quite old books. 1357 01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:31,280 Like are you sure you want to read them? 1358 01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:33,560 Like, yeah, they're great. 1359 01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:34,560 They're weird. 1360 01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:36,840 They're like such a product of 1950s. 1361 01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:43,360 Um, but yeah, like I just, I always found like those kind of like, you know, when you 1362 01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:50,120 have like really interesting stories condensed, like, and obviously have quite tight narratives. 1363 01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:54,320 Um, it was more enticing rather than these long stretching. 1364 01:26:54,320 --> 01:27:03,200 Like I really liked, um, I remember my dad took us to like a secondhand bookstore and 1365 01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:10,840 there was the downstairs area, which had, um, cause I don't know when it started happening 1366 01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:13,800 cause now it's everywhere you can find all this anime, right? 1367

01:27:13,800 --> 01:27:14,800 Oh my God. 1368 01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:15,800 Yes. 1369 01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:22,640 But when I found like manga and like the, the sailor moon graphic novels and like Ramune 1370 01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:30,640 half graphic novels, those were so much fun because, because reading was such a struggle, 1371 01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:36,840 it was like, but I can get the story in these little, you know, blips of basically dialogue 1372 01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:41,520 with not a lot of in between and you're just getting these incredible stories. 1373 01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:47,760 That was, that was probably one of my like, Oh, there's there, there's like other ways 1374 01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:55,080 to access books besides just the thing that's caught like, besides stupid watershed down 1375 01:27:55,080 --> 01:28:00,720 that was, that one will never leave my mind because it's just like your biggest Achilles 1376 01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:01,720 here. 1377 01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:06,520 You're like, Oh, I just, that was, um, that was one of those moments that just sticks 1378 01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:10,000 with you and you're like, Oh my gosh, I don't read as well as all my friends and all my 1379 01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:12,120 friends are in the group, whatever. 1380 01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:13,680 And I'm in reading group, whatever. 1381 01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:14,680 And yeah. 1382 01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:15,680 Yeah. 1383 01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:19,800 Um, and then, uh, I did eventually get the audit. 1384 01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:22,920 My mom got me the audio book to try to help me. 1385 01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:28,240 And so we, I to try to learn to read better, we would take an index card. 1386 01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:30,160 So I'd have to hold the book open. 1387 01:28:30,160 --> 01:28:34,320 We're listening to it and I'd have to move the index card down. 1388 01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:35,320 Wow. 1389 01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:37,320 Yeah. 1390 01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:46,440 Which I think is actually a smart way to like, to try to teach someone to, to read. 1391 01:28:46,440 --> 01:28:50,880 And even now I constantly, like when I'm reading my own material and editing, I'm constantly 1392 01:28:50,880 --> 01:28:55,360 using my other hand to underline the line that I'm reading or my pen. 1393 01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:58,320 It doesn't have to be a full note card, but as a kid that it did help. 1394 01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:02,880 Cause then you're, you're not, I don't know, you're not scrambling things as much. 1395 01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:06,240 But I hated that. 1396 01:29:06,240 --> 01:29:07,440 That felt like torture. 1397 01:29:07,440 --> 01:29:12,880 Having to read along with the, with this old man, audio book narrator. 1398 01:29:12,880 --> 01:29:14,760 It was just, uh, I hated it. 1399 01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:17,000 And it's about, it didn't interest me at all. 1400 01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:18,640 I was like, why are we reading about rabbits?

1401 01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:22,920 I didn't have the mental capacity to understand what was going on besides that I was being 1402 01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,840 forced to read as a kind of like a chore. 1403 01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:26,840 Yeah. 1404 01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:28,720 Um, so reading wasn't fun. 1405 01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:29,720 Reading was just a, yeah. 1406 01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:35,440 It took a beat to be like, Oh, there's fun and there's so many worlds you can just jump 1407 01:29:35,440 --> 01:29:39,040 into by accessing books. 1408 01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:44,320 But it took me a while to realize that because it was such a hurdle at first, I think. 1409 01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:45,320 Yeah. 1410 01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:48,960 I think it's like, you know, there's something I really appreciate more in my thirties and 1411 01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:57,960 like, like, like, like like twenties, um, is, is that, you know, like is, is the fact 1412 01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:02,440 that it's like, you know, the thing that I love is being able to jump in the worlds of 1413 01:30:02,440 --> 01:30:08,200 like different things and realize that books have different ways of storytelling and, you 1414 01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:13,120 know, um, and I love seeing adaptations of like, of books that are done well rather than 1415 01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:17,360 like, you know, versus like ones that are done terribly. 1416 01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:19,720 There's a lot of those people feel that way. 1417 01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:25,520 Um, when your favorite book becomes like a horrendously awful film and you're like, Oh 1418 01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:26,520 man. 1419 01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:27,520 Well, yeah. 1420 01:30:27,520 --> 01:30:31,560 I think I shouldn't touch anything that she writes in a movie format. 1421 01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:35,960 Um, I've made that collective decision cause Fantastic Beasts was terrible. 1422 01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:42,560 Um, but you know, like anything that they, other writers wrote and adapted were much 1423 01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:43,560 better. 1424 01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:46,800 Like I feel like it's like when you work well, um, and especially like, you know, writing 1425 01:30:46,800 --> 01:30:49,280 for different formats is such a different knack. 1426 01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:51,480 It's like such a different skill. 1427 01:30:51,480 --> 01:30:58,240 Um, and adapting work is like such a like foreign, you know, like concept for a lot 1428 01:30:58,240 --> 01:30:59,240 of people. 1429 01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:03,960 So it's like, I find when writers do it well, you, it's just flawless. 1430 01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:09,720 Like it's, you know, like, um, and I mean like Stephen King is the prime example of 1431 01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:13,360 another person who should never adapt his own work because he for years would complain 1432 01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:18,880 about like, um, The Shining being a terrible movie that Stanley Kubrick had made. 1433 01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:22,800 And so he decided to make his own and it was rated so poorly. 1434 01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:25,680 Um, but I didn't know that. 1435 01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:26,680 Yeah. 1436 01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:28,320 It's like, it was made in the nineties. 1437 01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:34,680 Um, and he thought that Jack Nicholson was too like erratic for the original movie. 1438 01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:36,320 And I was like, yeah, probably. 1439 01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:38,200 But also it just kind of worked. 1440 01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:41,960 Um, and I can't imagine anyone other way. 1441 01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:42,960 That's wow. 1442 01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:44,500 No, I know. 1443 01:31:44,500 --> 01:31:46,600 That's like the thing that I baffles me. 1444 01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:51,520 It's a little bit like you, you picked an amazing director and then you're like, I'm 1445 01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:52,520 going to do it better. 1446 01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:54,120 And it was actually worse. 1447 01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:56,560 But, um, it's that, I don't know. 1448 01:31:56,560 --> 01:32:02,200 I mean, like I can imagine it's very hard to separate from your art and you want to 1449 01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:03,200 be a part of it. 1450 01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:06,440 And you have this vision of what it looks like, right? 1451 01:32:06,440 --> 01:32:13,920 Cause um, one thing, you know, like I've done a lot of like reading on writing craft and, 1452 01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:20,880 you know, if you're going to write an action scene or something, you could, but it would 1453 01:32:20,880 --> 01:32:22,840 be so painfully boring. 1454 01:32:22,840 --> 01:32:24,840 Tell every single action that happens. 1455 01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:25,840 Right. 1456 01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:31,560 And maybe in that first draft you do, you know, he pulled the knife back, extended his 1457 01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:32,720 arms swung wide. 1458 01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:36,680 It like, and suddenly it's going to get too listy and long and you're just going to get 1459 01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:37,680 bored. 1460 01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:43,840 Um, but you see it so, I mean, at least I do when I'm writing, I see it so vividly. 1461 01:32:43,840 --> 01:32:50,880 Does it really matter now when you read it and maybe 10 other people read it, if you 1462 01:32:50,880 --> 01:32:54,600 all see it differently than how I saw it? 1463 01:32:54,600 --> 01:32:55,800 Probably not. 1464 01:32:55,800 --> 01:33:03,280 So long as the, you know, the, the character wins, there's some amount of buildup and resolution 1465 01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:06,760 and we're all on the same page about those bits. 1466 01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:13,080 Does it matter if you saw the arm retract before swinging wide and da da da? 1467 01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:14,080 Probably not. 1468 01:33:14,080 --> 01:33:15,080 Right. 1469 01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:19,560 So then, then you start to pare down your language and, um, I can

imagine though, that's 1470 01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:26,200 so hard to watch your, how you see it in your head get interpreted totally differently. 1471 01:33:26,200 --> 01:33:31,040 And now you've got a product that you feel like does not match your original story. 1472 01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:39,680 I'm not saying Stephen King should have made this other shining 2.0, but, um, yeah, it's, 1473 01:33:39,680 --> 01:33:47,280 I can't imagine, cause I think about my books becoming TV shows and movies or some, some 1474 01:33:47,280 --> 01:33:51,280 something and, um, wanting to be so involved in that. 1475 01:33:51,280 --> 01:33:52,280 Right? 1476 01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:53,280 Yeah. 1477 01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:55,120 I mean, there's a part of me that's like, yeah, I want to be on that team. 1478 01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:56,240 I don't know how to do it. 1479 01:33:56,240 --> 01:33:59,200 I've never done any screenwriting kind of stuff. 1480 01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:04,280 So that would be a huge pivot, but I would love to try to make that pivot or at least 1481 01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:08,600 be at the table, you know, and put in my two cents. 1482 01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:13,280 But for all I know, I would suck at who knows or, or hate it. 1483 01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:14,280 Yeah. 1484 01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:15,280 Right. 1485 01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:17,080 Like, cause is that where you see yourself in five years? 1486 01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:18,080 Hopefully. 1487 01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:19,800 Um, I don't know. 1488 01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:22,000 I'm still trying to get a literary agent. 1489 01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:30,720 So timing is a really funky thing in this industry, but, um, I would love that. 1490 01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:32,480 That would be awesome. 1491 01:34:32,480 --> 01:34:40,000 I would love if this series got traction and then became an animated show. 1492 01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:41,000 I just think that'd be so cool. 1493 01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:42,000 I could see that happening. 1494 01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:52,040 Um, plus it's got this very like interdimensional dream space manipulating the non, the nearly 1495 01:34:52,040 --> 01:34:53,400 non-physical, right? 1496 01:34:53,400 --> 01:34:59,200 So, um, and I say that because if you can manipulate something, there's some amount 1497 01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:01,200 of physicality to it. 1498 01:35:01,200 --> 01:35:02,200 Right? 1499 01:35:02,200 --> 01:35:10,640 So I just think that would look so cool as like artwork more than, um, I don't know. 1500 01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:14,560 I don't want to like do CGI cause that's artwork too in a very different way, but I just think 1501 01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:18,640 it would look really awesome if it was animated. 1502 01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:23,280 I just think it would be so cool and how fun to sit at the table and help make sure that 1503 01:35:23,280 --> 01:35:28,320 all my snarky little characters lines are delivered correctly. 1504 01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:29,320 I love that. 1505 01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:30,320 Um, oh my God. 1506 01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:31,920 I really hope that for you though. 1507 01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:32,920 Thank you. 1508 01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:33,920 Me too. 1509 01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:36,920 Just cross your fingers. 1510 01:35:36,920 --> 01:35:40,520 Publisher and crazy anime. 1511 01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:41,520 That's like the two. 1512 01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:42,520 Perfect. 1513 01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:43,520 Yes. 1514 01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:44,520 And then we can get all the other books out. 1515 01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:45,520 Yeah, I know. 1516 01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:46,520 Those need to come too. 1517 01:35:46,520 --> 01:35:47,520 Yeah. 1518 01:35:47,520 --> 01:35:48,520 First and foremost. 1519 01:35:48,520 --> 01:35:50,520 Um, I have one final question for you though. 1520 01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:51,520 Sure. 1521 01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:52,880 Um, is where can people on the internet find you? 1522 01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:54,680 Where can they stalk you? 1523 01:35:54,680 --> 01:36:02,760 Oh, um, at right as rain Sullivan with underscores in between every word on Instagram and tick 1524 01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:03,760 tock. 1525 01:36:03,760 --> 01:36:11,080 That is so hard to say cause it would be right underscore rain underscore rain underscore 1526 01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:14,200 Sullivan on Instagram and took tick tock. 1527 01:36:14,200 --> 01:36:19,600 If I could say the app's name, uh, that would be great or rain Sullivan rights.com. 1528 01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:20,600 Wow. 1529 01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:22,480 Thank you so much for coming on. 1530 01:36:22,480 --> 01:36:23,480 Thank you so much for having me. 1531 01:36:23,480 --> 01:36:24,480 This is a blast. 1532 01:36:24,480 --> 01:36:26,560 I'm so glad you're also welcome back anytime. 1533 01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:28,160 Please, please come back. 1534 01:36:28,160 --> 01:36:29,160 I'll bring you back. 1535 01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:32,560 Um, and if you want to go and check out more episodes of things we do, you can check them 1536 01:36:32,560 --> 01:36:33,560 out on Apple and Spotify. 1537 01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:36,560 I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you later. 1538 01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:37,560 Goodbye. 1539 01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:56,180 Hey,