Hyper-Authenticity & Stories Sell Circular Economy Not Data의 전체 녹취록

that you've talked to, where there that morale component, they know it's important, but there's something about that morale component that is just like almost equally, if not more equally, or more important. Vojta: Yeah, I think the leadership it's a bit of a special breed. Obviously, like Garr Punnett: Yeah. Vojta: I remember I was sitting in New York with the global CEO of Pandora who's never seen me, and I was about to have like an Garr Punnett: Yep. Vojta: opening keyword with him, just you know, announcing their massive initiative to the news, and it and he was like, So what is circle economy really? And I, you know, I was like, What do I how do I I have like 30 seconds, right? Garr Punnett: Yeah, it's Vojta: How do I get it? And then I realized analogy works. I was like, well, I don't know. Look at Uber. They don't own any cars. Yeah, they are like a multi billion dollar business. And it was like, you could see, I was like, whoa, yeah, what that's great. I love that. All right, well, I I get it. Okay, cool. Let's this guy's fine. Let's let's move on. It was just like Garr Punnett: It is it's Vojta: very different case. Like I wouldn't really communicate. like this with everyone out there if they ask me what is circle economy, but just like if you really have 10, 20, 30 seconds, don't start with this long intro about the planet and waste flows and everything. just give a quick example of something they recognize, they know from their life and and of course make it more relatable to whatever their situation is. Garr Punnett: I wish I'd been more really made this more o aware to how I'm speaking, and I will after this one particular instance and sort of experience I had last week, where I was had the fortune ability to talk to a reporter about circular economy, talk to them more about it was a local initiative here at Chicago, and I was getting through all of that. We were doing all that, and I could tell it just wasn't clicking. And in the last Two minutes basically of the I'll sort of interview allotted time, I saw her take a sip from a Topo Chico glass that had been with the top cut off of it. So it was a drinking glass now instead of a bottle. And I basically was like, Hey, by the way, where did you get that glass? And she was like, this is a glass that my grandmother got me. I think it's so cool. And I was like, Well, what's cool about that is it's been reused. And it's actually, and I got to explain to her sort of what went into that actually becoming a product. That she loved, and that's when it clicked. And it was cool to see that in real, because you're right, it like hit them at at their product and household level, where they're like, I get what this is about now. And so I just didn't Vojta: Exactly. Garr Punnett: I think and I need and so I I kind of wish, and to anybody that's listening now, bake that into the beginning, not the end like I did. Bake that into the beginning and talk about product, talk about the things that hit them in their life. And so I think that's a great lesson. Vojta: Yeah, definitely. And one more thing about this whole thing about people connecting, you know, with Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: whatever you have to say. I didn't know much about human psychology. I still don't, right? but it's a science. And it turns out that we are wired to stories. And we've always been as humans, you know, ever since the the birth of humanity. It's actually the stories and our ability to believe in them that this whole system depends on. And and stories has been passed on for you know generations and thousands of years, and that's what sticks. And you know yourself, Garrett maybe you know, you don't like l if you find yourself like reading an article that really like grabbed Garr Punnett: Mm-hmm. Vojta: your attention or listening to someone, you will often realize that that person willingly or unknowingly leads with some kind of a story. So I think the art of communicating and even selling circularity or anything really, but especially when it comes to climate, because we tend to get really hate data heavy, is just you know, lead with stories. If you have Long time, but even that Uber story I told to the CO is it's a story, it's not a data thing. It's like yeah, Garr Punnett: Yes? Right. Vojta: some analogies and that and don't don't do this like fear mongering trick that I I it took me years to realize that it's actually how you lose people and and you lose that short window where you have a chance to actually prove that you're interested. And when you extrapolate it to the social media, because you were curious about that, right? Then that's basically all of this. Garr Punnett: I was gonna say that's that seems like the digital campfire, if you will. Like there's like there's Vojta: Yeah, it's all Garr Punnett: like where stories are being told. Go ahead. Vojta: It's all of this on steroids, because you Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: really have what like maybe half a second to grab someone's attention. It's literally a fight for attention. And people relate differently to how you convey the message and and data is not really the selling point. Unfortunately. Garr Punnett: What yeah, no kidding. I think and I think you do a really interesting job of, you know, graphically. What I've actually appreciated the most is if I've if I've been scrolling and seen one of your posts, there's color, there's something happening, there's maybe a juxtaposition, and but there's layers to it. And I think what I what what is interesting to me is it it will catch. And then there seems to be more for people if they want it. If they want to read text that's sort of embedded, if they want to try to understand a message, there's another sort of headline that they can look at. And I think that's really compelling. How have you gotten to that point? What's the evolution been like in learning how to take advantage of that split second reaction? Because I know there's a learning curve there.

I know that you didn't start out being like, this is clearly what's resonating Vojta: yeah. Garr Punnett: or sort of what's fit the market in that way. What sort of the lesson learned there? Vojta: Yeah, that's a long story, but I'll try to cut it short. I Garr Punnett: Yeah. Vojta: I never thought I would become, you know, LinkedIn's number one green. I'm I I would never th have thought that I would have, you know, almost a quarter of a million people following me. It's like it was never the plan. I'm an environmental engineer, right? Like I I s studied like waste and renewable energy and I worked in those industries. but then When I moved to Sweden about six years ago, I realized I you know I was a suddenly a small fish in a big lake. I didn't really have a network, I didn't have a lot of people that knew me. And it was also COVID. And you remember how that looked. You couldn't meet anyone. There was there were lockdowns and there were no events. So the only way to w professionally connect became LinkedIn or one of my main channels. And the more that I was on the platform, I also saw how it's basically untapped potential because the feed was empty. There was not it was I realized it's a social media. People are not Garr Punnett: Yep. Vojta: using it as a social media. People were using it to get hired or to promote their jobs. And sometimes you saw like some selfies like, I met this guy over here and it could get three hundred likes and that's Garr Punnett: Or the or the classic thank you for this opportunity to do XYZ. This was amazing. It was like a humble flex arena. Yes. Yeah. Vojta: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And everybody was doing it that way, including myself. And then I was like, hang on a minute. So what about I actually talk about circular economy, about what I really think? Because I think a lot of people are afraid to speak their mind because you know you have you are employed somewhere or you you maybe have some clients or you have some people in a network and you're afraid of you know what people will think. but it turns out that you know I I I pretty much came into that in a good time because everybody was kind of tired but hungry for some insights into circular economy because it was an upcoming field and a trend. So I just started posting about like what I see, what I think, what I don't agree with, and that just blew up. And I I went from you know five thousand followers to a hundred thousand followers in a year or or a year and a half or something. And So and then of obviously during that period, like once I started going viral, then I started studying social media and I started obviously looking, okay, so what are others doing and what are the frameworks you could be doing? What are some systems you can build? So th right now it's there's a whole system and science behind it, but back then how it started, it was almost by accident. Garr Punnett: Well, I love that 'cause I think that at the core of it, it speaks to authenticity. So at the core of it, w you're you're breaking through the noise by saying, Hey, I know you hear all this stuff, but this is what I think about it. This might be good, this might be bad. I think you've towed the line pretty well on on not shaming, 'cause I think that can it can be all too easy sometimes to shame. I think there's I think Sometimes it needs to be done. Sometimes you need to say like this isn't good and don't do this e organization X. but I think that's done in and I think in a way too where you need to be like, but everyone can improve. One one position you might have now on a bad actor doesn't mean they'll always be a bad actor. You can't villainize them. You just need to almost keep poking them in the right direction. Vojta: Yeah, it's true, it's true. I I think so there's a couple things to say here. Garr Punnett: Please, yeah. Vojta: in in any in any situation that you are, if you are about to communicate, I think especially these days with AI slop everywhere, being authentic or I would even say hyper authentic is a superpower. because people crave the realness Garr Punnett: Mm-hmm. Vojta: behind the facade. And that was actually one of the advice I got. I I here in the co-working where I'm sitting, when I started going a little bit viral, I there was a guy here who worked at LinkedIn back then. He was a coach. And I asked him, Hey, do you have an hour just to tell me like what I'm doing, what I could be doing differently? And one of the biggest takeaways he told me was like super short and just be s hyper authentic. And sometimes you know, don't be afraid to poke the bear and you know, be almost controversial, but not Hmm, not in a negative way, but just like have opinions that you know, if you believe Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: in them, then share them, even though and especially if you think that the majority of your followers don't share that opinion or have never heard it. So about the making villains, it's I I'm also not in that camp. I think it's just not productive and obviously bad for business as well. There are people who just like and There is a place for them as well. It's this is climate change, right? It's it's it's pretty it's extremely serious what's going on and and people have emotions and and I just don't think that LinkedIn is or the way that I use it is is the place for it. But it doesn't stop you from having enemies like for example not companies, but Garr Punnett: Yeah. Vojta: so for example, I I kind of build my almost career or the profile linking by speaking against recycling. Or not directly against, but I I started saying, look, it's it's not the only solution because I thought it was a big common misconception and still is that people think that as long as we recycle we're good. But we know that it's not the truth. So so don't Garr Punnett: I love that co yeah. No, I just I love that again. I mean these are these are core concepts that a you know, someone in again in my world being again trying to

better understand social media, trying to understand how people connect with concepts and very specifically in the podcast called Selling Circular, how do you sell these very complex concepts? I think there is and there does have to be I don't I don't know how to put this, but like a a wall, a a s a some some other opposing force that you need to hit against, or that you need to sort of be in a relationship with, because I think that d that is how this in the simplest messages, that's how people understand tension, or that's how they understand change is like, what are we trying to go against? And that again, and I think you made a great point, is like that can be vilified to an extreme Example. I mean, you could really, or you can use it and say, hey, because I think what you've done, especially in the recycling that recycling conversation, is like you take what is a very nuanced position, and you can make it a little bit more digestible. in in sort of being able to play with that. I think that's really helpful for people to understand because it gets the it gets the concept across that says, Hey, we've been fed this panacea. For a long time. We've been fed this message that this is the answer. But, and then inside scoop here, everyone, you've been fed it by the same people that, you know, want it that have the most to gain from that continuing to be plastics based, continue to all of those sort of recycling efforts. And so I think that's that in that nuance, I think you do a really good job of saying, like, essentially, hey, this isn't everything we were told to be. It can still be a lot, but there's so much more that we can be doing. Vojta: Yeah, exactly. And that that's the point about circular economy, Gare. You know, so many people think it is still only recycling. I tend Garr Punnett: Right, right. Vojta: to say that it's the worst of all the good options we have. Because Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: it's already a waste. You're already dealing with something that was turned into waste and you know, you're not You're not sure that you know it is recyclable, you're not sure if you can collect it. And even if it is recyclable, even if you can collect it, it's you know, there are losses in the process and it costs a lot of energy. And globally, globally, you know, and we studied this year on year with our circulated gap reports. Less than seven percent of all the resources that the humanity needs to exist get recirculated, get recycled. So that is obviously. extremely low number and we need to increase that. So recycling definitely has a place. But circular economy has other core principles that are a lot more profitable as well. Like for example, using less, you know, using less water, using less energy, using less resources, making things lighter weight. That saves a lot of money, saves a lot of resources. It's an upstream intervention. Using longer, so not just, you know, making sure it's single use and we can recycle. But actually how do we

keep this bottle or this cup or this car in use for many more years by fixing it and extending its life? And those are all the circular economy interventions and business models. And only then you start refurbishing and and repairing. And then, only then in the end, it's the recycling. Garr Punnett: I love that you brought up the seven percent number. Unpack that a little bit from a storytelling perspective. I think it's so interesting because I think I think there's something I can't tell I can't tell if it if that's tracking. I think it's very impactful that we in the industry get to use that and get to say, hey, look at look at the reality of this data. Do you think it's too big? Like, do you somehow think that concept is like too big for people to actually understand? Or is it resonating? Do you find that it's resonating with audiences that that there's Vojta: Yeah. Garr Punnett: something they could do with that number? Or again. Vojta: I think Garr Punnett: The inverse. It's that number's so small, but the opposite is so big and it's like somehow just people don't even grasp the concept that ninety three percent of these resources are being wasted. Vojta: Yeah, it's it it's so there's so many different things to say about this. Like the report we've done at Circle Economy has been very, very influential and and Garr Punnett: Yes, totally. Vojta: started measuring year on year and it definitely set the bar higher when it comes to like the global debate on circularity. it serves a sp specific crowd that so it's very data heavy. if I were to sell that as as a story, I would lead actually and and if I look at my post that work what I communicate this. I start with, you know, if everybody lived like Sweden, we would need six planets Earth. You know, or or Garr Punnett: Hm. Yes. Vojta: and that and that's that that people connect with okay, so what do what does he mean by that? So so Sweden, even though they recycle, aren't they like the most sustainable country on Earth? No, because they consume way too much. And that's a lot a bigger issue than how much they manage to recirculate. So you kind of Probably don't want to lead with that. make it more relatable Garr Punnett: I I Vojta: again with an analogy than that. Garr Punnett: I I love that because what you're calling to action there too is for anybody who's going to present, because I think this this is a a byproduct a little bit of we don't we only have so much data. And so wait when great numbers come out like that seven percent, people grab onto them and they're like, we have to run with this in a presentation. I have to show people this number that just came out because of this great research that's being done. but we don't have a lot of that. You know, we've got good numbers, but like we could always use more, more research in this space. But this gets to the point in the call to action for the audience that if you're presenting this internally, if you're presenting this externally, I think what's key about what you just said is interpret that number. Go one step further and make that relatable to your audience. Whoever you are serving, make that relatable to them. Because I think you're exactly right. That that comes into that's going to go right over their head because they're not going to know the backstory. They're not going to know the context and how important that is. But but the analogy you just gave will hit someone more than that 7% would. Vojta: Yeah, exactly. And then you can always play with like certain frames and sentences like, you know, we can't Garr Punnett: Right. Yeah. Vojta: recycle our way out of this, or you know, recycling is not a silver bullet. And and that also connects with people and then you can like connect with the data. One more thing I have to say about this report, which is really interesting and it's actually a pretty hopeful message. it doesn't mean that the rest of the resources are all wasted. Actually, you know, almost like Half of all the resources are just being locked in. So so it's not that they're going to waste, but you know, let's say you build a highway or you know a bridge, then Garr Punnett: yeah. Vojta: you're you're basically locking all these resources in an infrastructure that's gonna last and it's gonna serve us for decades, maybe even centuries. but the Garr Punnett: Great call Vojta: problem is that we just keep doing this year on year, so we're running Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: out of a lot of stuff. So and then you know, a lot of other resources are lost, dissipated, emitted. or landfills. So actually what we've also found out is that we don't there's we cannot get to 100% of recirculation. And we don't even need to. Nothing humans make can be fully fully circled. It's only nature that is, you know, in nature everything is 100% circle. There's no waste and it's powered by renewable energy. But in our world or you know like the way that we operate there are there's r rules of physics and chemistry and there are losses and and there's energy you will always need energy to do something so but so the point is we don't and we cannot get to hundred percent circularity we can only if we only like two and a half X the number now and we get to 18% of recirculation that would be enough to get us to meet the Paris goal agreement and and reduce incredible amount of of resources. and that is a lot more doable and a lot more okay, we just double it instead of seven percent to a hundred, we're doomed. Garr Punnett: No, it gives think that's a a excellent milestone. Cause again, as humans, as emotional creatures, we don't want to see that it's a mile away. We would love to see at least the marker that's like around the block. We wanna see like, I just gotta get I gotta get there. So I think that resonates. Speaking of then, with audience and and then how a message can resonate. I think what I have loved most about my foray into social media, to storytelling, is I get a unique

perspective and I think this very much so probably serves you even more, of what's hitting, what is resonating with an audience where you might not have thought otherwise. I would love to know yours if you have one off the top of your head where maybe there was a surprising sort of reaction to a certain piece of content to give you a moment to think. I would love to share mine as well. and mine comes from the world of the degrowth it sort of initiatives. I'm very uncomfortable with these concepts of degrowing and what that means for the message or restricting or the reaction that might come from that. But the concepts are valid, and we need to live within a certain sort of paradigm, and we need to reduce maybe consumption to a certain degree. And there's lots of learnings in that from both personal and, or I guess you could say, like microeconomic and macroeconomic. And I get a lot of reaction from folks that Vojta: Mm-hmm. Garr Punnett: have strong feelings. But what that means is the engagements through the roof on posts like that. I see that those are the ones where people then are very active and they're also, they're either going, I don't understand this and I'm uncomfortable and no, or they're going, This is really interesting. I love this. Yes, I need more of this. And that was a real kind of light bulb moment for me on really seeing the value of A, what what that could mean to an audience and how to nurture and better understand a topic, but then also to try to kind of be a lightning rod in that way, similar to like, Putting out a bold opinion or being as you were saying in the beginning, and understanding how other people think. What has surprised you? What ha what has that meant in terms of things that have surprised you in terms of an audience reception, virality potentially? Are there any is there anything top of mind? Vojta: Yeah, okay. So if we talk about LinkedIn, Garr Punnett: Yeah. Or good again, 'cause there's so many other platforms that might be available to you on that one that yeah. Vojta: Yeah, no for sure. So I think people love good news and there's n never enough of good news and so so Garr Punnett: Huh, yeah. Vojta: that always works. Always, always. So th every time there's like a good announcement that you know Colombia just closed I don't know huge parts of the country to logging and oil exploration, you know, people really connect with because we need this, we need this badly and we need more countries. And so that spreads like wildfire. Like people wanna I wanna share this. I wanna repost. I wanna comment. I wanna hit like it's like you can't you can't almost resist. Garr Punnett: You almost like yeah, right. Vojta: Yeah. in my field, you know, so I always try to have like one or two good news a week, and LinkedIn has changed. I think now it's even more about this. it could be also just, you know, upcoming regulations, which is also it's a good news, but also it's directly connected to the jobs of my followers. So

and you know, LinkedIn is a professional platform, so people are there to also learn, to get better, to Garr Punnett: Learn. Vojta: grow. professionally so and they follow me for industry trends. That's the number one reason when I was asking them about, you know, why do they follow me? So bringing good industry trends, that's like the golden spot right now that's working for me. jobs, another thing that you know always brings a lot of attention. People want to share that, repost that. And on the other hand, it's also when you want to poke or point at something that you disagree with or something that pisses you off. So that that's another thing. Like I was just talking about FIFA and the World Cup and how they first they banned all the kind of beverages that Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: these could bring, then they kind of again there was a backlash and then they just banned the reusable bottles. But to me that's gumpowder. So I know it well I I feel like okay, why are we even bling bringing single use bottles to the venue? Why can't we have reusable cup scheme? At every stadium we know it works. And you know it it's it's just so many people comment and share, and that also connects to basically what's going on in the world, right? So there's different things. There's the Strait of Hormuz. So when you put when you know it's the media is full of that and you post about that, and chances are higher that people will Garr Punnett: Yeah. Vojta: there because you have an opinion on that and they're curious to hear as well if there's some kind of a a take from your end on that. So this post worked because the World Cup was starting. The day later, right? So all kinds of different things. At the end of the day, Gar, it's also extremely unpredictable. If we knew what will work and if we knew that every post will go viral, like we'll be all billionaires right now. And unfortunately, Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: there's still a ton of mystery and it's frustrating. And especially the social media game, it's getting harder and harder. with Garr Punnett: Mm-hmm. Vojta: the growth of AI generated content, AI comments, bots. there's just more content, there's more competition with and even though you make a Garr Punnett: Attention. Vojta: perfect post with the best advice and the best visual, there's still more ads also on the platform. So there's just less people will see that. It's just the way that LinkedIn works these days. But nevertheless, like it's still the best place to be. And and I I would encourage everyone just to share whatever they have on their mind. Being hyper authentic on top of that, really important as well. Good hooks. Garr Punnett: Yes. I think that's actually a really good call out in general because I I I feel as though in our space we need more people to share and connect. Because that's how we actually maybe reduce barriers to either a program success or program learnings, or also, in a lot of ways, program failures. And and maybe there's so much to learn. And if something doesn't work at an organization, Well, that's a great hot take. That's a great lesson learned. That would be lovely for someone to share and say, hey, we tried this. It's scary, but we tried this at this organization. This is what didn't work. This is how we pivoted. This is how we changed it. And I know that to anybody listening, I know that would go very well because you can get a lot of then we can get a lot more learnings collected to into the collective to kind to to continue to progress the the movement. all right, then to pivot kind of abruptly here. how does this translate then to and we we kind of got to it at an executive level, at a corporate change level. what what are you seeing? What are you in terms of the conversations, how they've changed maybe over the maybe the decade or the last five years? How are we progressing? Are we stagnating? What's your sense of sort of the state of the market right now when it comes to circular economy? Vojta: In like the professional world or just like out of the street? Okay. Garr Punnett: In the professional world. I would say in the professional world in terms of and and you're gonna have a very, I think, uniquely European perspective, EU perspective. What you have on the US I would also love to know as well, given sort of your access to to the US market as well. But I this can be broad strokes, you could even have some some sort of micro impressions as well in that. Vojta: Yeah, yeah. So we we have had the peak sustainability buzz a few years ago, like twenty twenty one, twenty two, twenty Garr Punnett: Yeah. Yep. Vojta: three, twenty four still. and Garr Punnett: In the States it's almost like something happened around twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four where that conversation was a little more limited. We had an election, yes. Yeah. Yes. Vojta: Yeah, yeah. It kept going. It came and there was so much regulation and countries and these huge treaties and big corporates making claims and people like meeting the targets and investments flowing. And that's still happening, but Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: I think what what happened over especially the last year and a half or two is that you know climate change has become even more political than ever before. And it's not just Trump and the US, even though that's been a huge catalyst to kind of what's going on elsewhere in the world with a lot of other populist movements that are, you know, basically just tagging with the flow. And that's goes for Europe, it goes for outside of Europe as well. what it does to where we are with circularity is actually pretty weird. Because on one hand, first of all, circularity is not The same as sustainability. And which is good in a way. so professionally companies these days, what I see, everything has to have a business case. That's you before you didn't need that. And I know it sounds almost crazy. Those were the golden times where it was enough to kind of promise that this

is gonna reduce our carbon footprint. And It's also connected to that we've we've had those wins. Like people and companies did their homeworks, and for the last 10 years they have been kind of moving slowly but surely and they've reaped all these quick and low-hanging fruits. And now it is a bit more difficult because they need to start in order for them to keep reaching net zero and carbon neutrality. Energy has been kind of cracked and sold, and we know how to fix that, but they realize the other half of the coin comes to the core product, how the products are designed, what are they made from, how long will they last, and how will they if they are made from virgin resources or not. And the business case there it is there, but it's a lot harder to communicate, it's a lot harder to find. And and this is kind of where we are today with circularity. So There are companies who and some of the biggest corporates, and including from the states, who have been very successful at making circularity part of their core business. And they are moving forward and they are less dependent on geopolitics, and they're less dependent on you know risky supply chains, and they are less dependent on volatile prices. And you can see they're becoming increasingly more competitive. There are other companies who are also, you know, like they have kind of reached the peak of their sales, like Cat, right? It's a US giant, you know, heavy machinery manufacturer. And Garr Punnett: Yep. Yep. Vojta: we were studying that case in one of my cohorts. There their sales of new vehicles they peaked years ago. But how Garr Punnett: Hmm. Vojta: do they stay profitable? How do they grow their revenue in billions? It's to keep those vehicles on the road for longer. With repairs, spare parts, remanufacturing, software updates. And so a lot of the companies that kind of, you know, almost are monopolies or really kind of reached almost like a maximum of consumers they can. they're looking elsewhere to grow the revenue, like with resales and other more innovative circular economic business models on B2C and on B2B. So that's happening. On the other side, there also there's there's a huge deregulation push in the EU and beyond. So this whole compliance and regulatory need is gone. And whoever wants to succeed in circularity, internally or externally, we need to lead with the business case and not the CO2 anymore. And we're kind of in a weird space where there's a lot happening and Garr Punnett: Mm-hmm. Vojta: a lot more should be happening. But what we see when we take the step back and and we cover that in my newsletter as well every week, it's actually I think it's moving forward and it's it's incredible things that are going on all around the world. That things that you and I were dreaming of ten years ago. There's okay, the biggest car manufacturer Toyota started opening circle of factories and like, you know, take old cars and make new cars out of that was like that is what it is about and they're doing that because Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: there is a business case for it. And and you see others on that path as well. So I don't know. It's a bit bit of a brain catch. Garr Punnett: Yeah. No, it's that's that's phenomenal. I think you you you did a great job. I I love that you brought cat cat into this conversation. It will actually segue into a a a a sort of a raw thought. well something I've been thinking a lot about. It's not totally raw, but I would love your impression of it. cat's such an interesting example. When I talk to people, people seem to understand circular economy in terms of the business model spectrum when I explain it to them. You've on one side you might have a higher volume in terms of units and a lower price point. So think I tend to explain it to them in terms of clothing or electronics. So something that goes out to consumers in mass and has a lower sort of price point. On the other side of the spectrum, you have cat, you have John Deere, you have these massive manufactur well, massive manufacturers that make massive machines, and those tend to be lower unit volume, much higher price point. But in the middle, That's where I'm fascinated by. And I'm fascinated by the middle because there seems to be a gap in what I'm sort of developing as sort of a a value to weight ratio of the circular economy. And there's that can be appliances, building materials. There's there's there's a a really interesting gap of solutions that that are coming and more are coming and and there's some really great work being done. What do you think about that gap? what do you think about sort of what's happening in that in that world of that? Of that in between those. Vojta: I think it's a huge opportunity and I wish I just was starting fresh and I had more Garr Punnett: Yeah. Vojta: entrepreneur mindset because I man, like this whole especially in the B2B world, basically, Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: you know, where there's waste, it's an opportunity and and waste manifests in very different it's not just trash you need to call like to me, waste is an office that's sitting empty ninety percent of the time. It's a car. Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: That is parked 93% of the time we own it. It's a drill that is used for 10 minutes of its entire lifetime. That's a wasted opportunity. But it's also about and there are companies that have started really cracking that code. Food waste, too good to go, right? Again, like Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: there are there are companies that have managed to really start disrupting these inefficiencies from how we like purchase and how we consume. And not in the B2C world. Unfortunately, it's been a lot harder to crack through circularity, but in the B2B world, it's insane. You know, the biggest lightning company in the world, one of the biggest, you can't buy much of their products. They're just leasing it to you. It's Signify. It used to be owned by Garr Punnett: Hm. Vojta: Philips. Half of their

overall revenue, which is in billions and billions of euros, comes from just circle economic business models that are Garr Punnett: Leasing. Wow. Vojta: and it's it's booming. So the to me that space in the middle, like some B2B SMEs, especially focused on like sharing and platforming and just like recovering the lost value, it's a it's an insane opportunity. And I see startups and scale-ups just are jumping on that with the speed of light. And now with AI, everything just to build and prototype and like build the software behind it's It's getting a lot easier. So I think we're we're headed to like really exciting times. But what troubles me, Gar, is the B2C what the fashion, like this the Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: all these things, that's a whole nother thing. Yeah. Garr Punnett: Yeah. no, that's fair. I mean, it is. It's it's very complicated that it it involves consumers too, which it can be, well, amazing and fickle. and and that can be it can be really hard. but I think there are really interesting to that consumer end when it comes to design, when it comes to that's where so much of that good work can be done on recovery or eliminating waste or all of that. And I think we've we've had great people on from organizations like Codopaxi who are really trying to think through these different elements in the in the States. I would love to talk about the Circular Economists. Vojta: Mm-hmm. Garr Punnett: this very cool new initiative that you launched a couple weeks ago. can you tell us a little bit more about it on sort of why it's important, why you are sort of really trying to connect the dots, the humans that are doing that are either interested or doing great work and connecting them together. I think it's a really interesting platform. Vojta: Thanks. Yeah, so I started the Circle Economists because I believe that we need more circle economists. We need more Gars and we need more voitas out there. Because Garr Punnett: Yeah, yeah. Vojta: as professionals, we have an exponential impact. There's nothing stopping us. Just this podcast. Just imagine you change some minds with that and or my LinkedIn posts or whatever. It's it's it's a lot more than just buying a green Garr Punnett: Yes, yes. Ripples. Vojta: auto, right? So so it hit me a few years ago that hey Maybe the way to to you know follow my passion to cr make a better world is to empower others to become circle economy professionals. And the circle economists are all about that. We're building a home for circle economy enthusiasts and professionals because there's nothing surprisingly, there's nothing like it. You have communities, you have courses, you have cohorts in sustainability and climate, but in circle economy, which is so exciting. There really isn't much. And me as you know, a white-collar LinkedIn guy, I realized, well, this is perfect. So yeah, we have 250 members from all around the world, more than Garr Punnett: Love Vojta: 60 countries. they're landing new jobs, starting companies with each other, getting better at their work, whether that's a corporate or solar printers or founders. they're starting local chapters, which is also very exciting. So we're we're we're empowering our members to do in person events wherever they are based, and we give them all the tools they need to do that. We train them. because again, that's a way to scale the momentum. And my vision is that in every big city on the planet there'll be a circle economists local chapter. So if you travel to Paris, you can visit their events, you can meet the local community of the circle economists. And this is how I want just to connect the world and connect the dots and live home. Garr Punnett: I I didn't even think about that element of because again, I I we can almost un better understand, strangely, these days, the digital communities. but ultimately the physical communities, that seems incredibly impactful. Personally, I really like this idea because I often I've on two different occasions. On the first occasion I did sort of a A US trip where I went to different cities to try to meet different circular economy leaders in different cities to better understand their work in their community as well professionally. I did the same thing about two years ago in Europe. I wanted to better understand certain certain folks and try to better understand certain models and really meet people in different cities as I I think I hit 11 different cities. It's kind of a whirlwind, but it was it was a lot, but it was it was a good time to do it. And I think this is actually a really interesting initiative because boy, it would be really cool to know. To know someone in a city so that I could s Vojta: Exactly. Garr Punnett: and and develop a relationship with them so that when I went to Paris, I could say, Where should I go? What do you know? And that barrier would be decreased. They I wouldn't be coming in as a stranger. And so that's the physical and capabilities there I think could be really impactful for building that global network of knowledge. Vojta: Yeah, and it's also how we stay relevant, Gar, because you Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: know, at the age of AI I believe that in Garr Punnett: Yeah. Vojta: person experiences will become even, you know, more desirable and and and better and scarcer. So this is also my way to help the circle economists to be the most relevant person in their city and in the room. Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: To succeed with their careers. So that's essentially what we're helping to do. And I I'm I myself am betting on in-person experiences as well. I love events, I often get booked, but I don't have my own signature event. But that's changing Garr Punnett: Right. Vojta: at the end of this year. I'm bringing all of our members, all of the circle economists, to one city in Europe in December, and it's gonna be the summit for members only. And I am so excited about that. I can't wait. Garr Punnett: That's where the magic happens. And I

think this is where when you can get people in the same room, either digitally or physically, but physically can be so important. And I think you're right. There's something about we're gonna see that the human reaction to AI. My bet is also that it's going to be, hey, let's get together, let's figure this out together. Like let's work on something that's gonna change. a system that might be shared learnings, I think that's going to be enormously impactful as a result of AI. There's going be a lot of great stuff that happens Vojta: yeah. Garr Punnett: that we can better digitize, but the result of which is if if this if AI actually pushes us closer together, that's not a terrible outcome. Vojta: No, it's true. And look, it's it's an unstoppable tool which is extremely powerful. And I believe, you Garr Punnett: Yes. Yes. Vojta: know, it's just I'm taking full advantage of AI, Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: but I also just want to stay on top of it and stay relevant. And I think just like betting on just bringing people together online in the community, but also in person, in their own communities and together, it's it's a good mix. And yeah, but we're also bringing an AI track inside the circular economist. Garr Punnett: Yeah, great. Vojta: Something I'm very excited about. I'm just about to announce soon because I think it's an essential skill that people will need and especially Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: in circularity, you can suddenly become a team of ten instead of one and that is a problem because a lot of people work alone. Garr Punnett: Yeah, no, totally. this is kind of a terrible question to end on, 'cause it could have a non-answer and then we'll go from there. But what what didn't I ask you? What do you what are things that are that aren't aren't being asked in in circular economy, of circular economy? What do we need to be actually moving toward where you think there's a gap here? Vojta: Mm. I mean you ask a lot of great questions, but I don't know. I think I wish people were just sharing more reasons what makes them hopeful, what makes them stay positive, because it's been a kind of a a hurricane, right? Like in the in in the lives of sustainability professionals. So I I wish we would talk more about this with each other, because at the end of the day we need to stay on top of it. Garr Punnett: Then what is funny about your answer in that Sabira, who wasn't able to join us today, often asks her last question, which is what makes you most hopeful when it comes to the work that you're doing and the and the work we have ahead? Vojta: Yeah, okay, great. Well there you go. I think Garr Punnett: Yes. Vojta: if if that's a question to me Garr Punnett: It is. Vojta: I would say it's just to seeing this incredible momentum. Like every day I open my messages, I open my email, open my community, and I see there are just masses and masses of people ready to go. We are a silent majority. 92% of people want to have a stronger climate action, and that's not going anywhere. It's just getting more powerful and more stronger. So I you know, it gives me hope in humanity and I also I think, you know, even though it's extremely challenging what's going on out there, I also think that there's never been a better opportunity to get involved. And I also found my role in that. I'm helping others to do just that. So I we'll see how that goes. But I am I'm hopeful. I'm positive. I think we can make it. Garr Punnett: Excellent. What's the call to action for folks? I've got the newsletter. We've got the newsletter, so subscribe. We've got the circular economist you should explore. what's the call to action for folks here? Vojta: That's it. Yeah, please, you know, if you if you have liked this, let me know. Connect with me on LinkedIn, send me a message, check out the Circle Economist if that's for you. I have a newsletter where I share weekly industry trends and insights and jobs and events. So there's all kinds of different ways to stay in touch, but I would love to hear from you. So let me know. Garr Punnett: Voigt that thank you so much for joining us. This was incredible. It's great to great to hang out. Vojta: Thank you. Yeah, great, great job and take care.