When Two Ruptured Leaders Choose REPAIR - Spencer, HG & Sasha Loves You의 전체 녹취록

And for those that are listening later, first of all, we're very glad that you're listening and watching. 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:27.120 So thank you for your time, your engagement. 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:36.959 And I'll say if we were gonna do like the 90-minute, two-hour version of this, I would have asked you both, what's it like to hear that from each other? 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:41.680 So bonus episodes in the imaginary parallel world. 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:46.399 And we had just really, I think, juicy things to talk about today. 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.399 So I chose not to ask that so we can dive in a little more. 00:05:50.639 --> 00:06:04.879 But at this threshold in the conversation, let me go to you, if I can, Spencer, and just say what had you say yes to this conversation today about your journey together as friends and colleagues. 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:18.560 I like to follow aliveness, and I felt a lot of aliveness from our repair conversation, and it also just reconnected me to Dr. 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:22.240 Hg and I had like there is a current there. 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:29.920 There is, I think, just uh inspiration, and so that usually guides how I try to make my decisions. 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:33.120 It was just like, oh I think that'll be fun. 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:36.480 Nice. 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:38.560 This is fun for you. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:43.439 It is fun for you in a kinky way. 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:44.480 Yeah. 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:52.399 Yes, yes, HG, what had you say yes to this? 00:06:53.680 --> 00:07:13.600 I have such a commitment to walk my talk, and I want to support people to normalize big conflicts and also show them what one way can look like when repair is done in a good way. 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:49.360 And also, I think the one of the biggest things is like the amount of intense not trusting I had with Spencer for so many for four years, and now the level of like yes and trust is so like it seems miraculous and like so beautiful that I like I want other people to get to witness in this and and hopefully, you know, take some gems and apply it to their own lives and their own relationships. 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:53.600 Feels so juicy. 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:54.399 Thank you. 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:55.439 Thank you. 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:57.759 I am excited to dive in. 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:03.839 Can we kind of set the scene of you know, where do you want to start in time? 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.879 Give us the like where does this story begin? 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:08.480 Do you want to start, Spencer? 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:09.519 You want me to? 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:10.879 You go for it. 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:11.439 Okay. 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:35.200 Well, one dusty day in 2019, Spencer and I happened to be at the same Burning Man camp, naked heart, and I was so happy to meet Spencer because that camp was missing really like men who were showing up. 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:42.960 And it was memorable, it was palpable, and like you said, there's like deep resonance and chemistry and power here between us. 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.799 So that's where our friendship began. 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.080 And it was kind of one of these like really high peaks. 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:54.159 And then I moved and it kind of like fizzled out. 00:08:54.320 --> 00:09:02.480 It wasn't a long depthful, it was just like this like really intense moment of connection, and then our lives just went in the ways that it went. 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:10.159 And Spencer and I are both big leaders in communities across the nation in very similar field. 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:14.960 And so I I feel like a lot of our relationship was actually like from a distance. 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:18.080 So that's kind of like the history of our relationship. 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.600 Is there anything else you want to add to what I've shared so far, Spencer? 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:24.960 It's nothing like meeting somebody at Burning Man. 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:31.360 Build Week, actually, more specifically. 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:32.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:33.840 Build week at Burning Man. 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:34.080 Right. 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:35.440 Yeah. 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:37.200 That's a the whole context. 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:38.080 That's important. 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:38.559 Yeah. 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:39.279 Yeah. 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.759 And then 2022, summer 2022 in Colorado. 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:45.519 I went out there. 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:54.240 I live in California now, and I was invited to this gathering of about 50 people. 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:56.879 We did pay. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.039 So it was kind of like this weird, like it wasn't professional and it was personal to me. 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:07.200 So it was kind of like this interesting kind of like zone where it was like friends, but also I was paying. 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:10.080 So it felt like a professional kind of retreat. 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:13.120 And Spencer was one of the leaders of it. 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:25.360 And it pretty early on, I recognized it was a stretch for me to be there because this is a community that I'm not super integrated with. 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:29.519 I didn't know a lot of people, I didn't have any like person with me. 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:58.320 And there were some themes, and we'll get into maybe some of the more specifics, but there were a couple of themes where I had the experience of not feeling the sense of like belonging and safety, and particularly around the topics of indigenous justice and gender inclusion, and even some topics of their not from me, but some topics of there being some conversations about inclusion around race. 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:03.519 And so there were these like themes, and all those things are really important to me. 00:11:04.240 -->

00:11:08.320 And I wasn't feeling like those things were being tended to or attract. 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:15.840 And so it was, I was just really outside my comfort zone and pretty dysregulated. 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:23.279 And yeah, I think I'll pause there and kind of like ping pong it to Spencer and have you kind of share some of the pieces. 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:24.240 Yeah. 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:25.039 Yeah. 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:44.879 So summer 2022, my dear friend Ali Katz and I were just feeling like there's all these people that we love that are incredible, but like, where is the context to just like actually go deeper together? 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:55.919 Where's the context to just explore group emergence, explore Eros and intimacy together, in a way, do the work, do some shadow work together. 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:03.519 And so we decided to host at this place called Beul in outside Aspen. 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:06.960 And this place is wildly expensive. 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:14.240 So in addition to Ali funding a lot, we also asked people to contribute some money so it could come together. 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:16.480 Of yeah, friends and loved ones. 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:34.000 It was also interesting to this was one of the most hard to contextualize containers that I've ever been in, in that like Ali asked Attila and I, who were founding Dance Meets Tantra at the time, to facilitate. 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:37.759 She was like, hey, will you guys facilitate and support this? 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:44.000 And at the same time, a really interesting, delicate way to like have 50 people who are then there. 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:49.919 Everybody's there for different reasons, of their own reasons, their own why for coming is very different. 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:55.600 Um, and then to like set an agreement field and you know, what are we doing here together? 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:57.200 And you know, is interesting. 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:18.879 Even I was trying to distribute the container setting voices, asking different people to bring in the land recognition and recognizing the traditional custodians of the land, and there's just so many pieces that did not happen the way I wanted it to, which is also just an interesting part of trying to make this community gathering. 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:20.000 So that's the context. 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:53.039 50 people all there for kind of their own different reasons, but us wanting to create an experience that isn't just like people skimming along the surface of a get together somewhere in the mountains, or you know, just another party at somebody's house in you know, in town where maybe a bunch of people take medicine and then we're kind of like not really super connected to why we're there together. 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:54.559 So that's kind of my context. 00:13:57.039 --> 00:13:57.840 Thank you. 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:02.240 So there's a chapter in this story of the the

after that. 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:11.919 And so do either of you want to say like there was a gap in there, wasn't there, where you didn't have a lot of communication for a while? 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.919 You tell us Yeah, I can share what I remember. 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:34.240 I remember at some point reaching out to Spencer and Atila, the other leader, and saying, like, I would love a follow-up because there was we'll we'll tell you soon, but I had a big big expression at one of the circles. 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:40.320 Just had a really hard time, and then I didn't get a follow-up from either one of them. 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:43.840 And then at that point, I had just made a decision. 00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:50.799 I don't trust Spencer, and I don't want anything to do with Spencer, and kind of like fuck Spencer. 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:53.600 I'm like, I'm a no kind of thing. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:58.799 And so four years went by, and of course, you know, I see Spencer right here, Spencer. 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:02.480 We've seen each other at a couple of festivals, but like not a lot of interactions. 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:11.039 And then we saw each other at a party in October in Boulder, and you you came up to me and you said, like, hey, I want to connect. 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:13.200 And I was kind of like, I was kind of frozen. 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:27.360 I remember being like a little shocked and stunned, and then you reached out on WhatsApp a couple months later, so this would have been a couple months ago, and you were like, Hey, it seems like something's kind of like off here, or like there's like distance. 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.080 And I was like, that is correct, that is accurate. 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.840 You're feeling that because that's true. 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:36.960 And you had expressed the desire to have a repair conversation, and I was like, all about it. 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:40.320 I was so stoked and really grateful that you had reached out. 00:15:40.480 --> 00:16:05.519 And then we had two different repair conversations, and it was so amazing, like so powerful, and like the thing that I'm amazed at more than anything, and it was like, I felt like I was so in my my justice and my rightness of like what I did was like right and okay, and like from my perspective. 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:23.360 And then when I got Spencer's world and reality around all the things that I didn't know, I was like, Whoa, of course you did exactly what you did, and simultaneously trying to have compassion for myself for like saying, like, oh, of course I did what I did too. 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:29.360 So that's kind of like the what happened since yeah. 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.559 Anything you want to add, Spencer, to that piece? 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:43.279 Well, something I find really interesting is that I actually have far less memory of the facts than I did before the repair conversation. 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:56.159 It was like the repair conversation, like it like uh completed some like polarity circuit, and then my brain's like, okay, we don't need to remember, we don't need to like store unnecessary information anymore, which is interesting. 00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:23.759 But I yeah, I just remember from that time at you know Hazel Grace was having a a hard time, I think, with dynamics in the container, and I felt like they kind of threw a bomb into the middle of the container in a way that was like uh like uh didn't feel very self-responsible and kind of like antagonistic to the thing that was just maybe antagonistic to some agreements we had set in the container. 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:29.920 And then I think I must have dropped the ball even on just like responding to their request to follow up. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:18:01.279 And I was going through my own major shitstorms in my life at that time and low capacity, and just like I don't know what I was, you know, I don't know what was going on, but I I totally dropped the ball on just having this reconnection about after that and yeah, and then in terms of going into the repair and I I just you know, if there's people that I have Spencer, can I interrupt you? 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:04.319 Yeah, I have a curiosity. 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:13.039 What had you reach out with a text message to say, hey, I want to connect, can we have a conversation? 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:13.839 Yeah. 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:18.799 Well, it was that you are doing art of art of repair stuff. 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:29.119 I wasn't like super invested in being down on you, but like I was like, there was some impact for me from the weekend just being like, damn, like that sucked. 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:34.240 And like I felt kind of very missed in in the whole thing. 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:39.279 And um, but I was like, okay, they're like giving their life to art of repair. 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:48.319 Like, I want to give them a chance because they cannot be giving their life to art of repair if they're and then that they're not gonna meet me. 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:51.359 So I was like, let's just give this a shot to clear something. 00:18:51.440 --> 00:19:13.920 And my perspective on clearing is it's actually like evolved quite a bit over the course of my life where I don't feel obligated to clear with everybody who has I've ever had breakdowns with, because as I've risen in leadership, if I tried to do that with everybody, I would just be doing clearings, you know, for free all day long. 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:36.079 But with people where there's like a level of respect or shared community or alignment, knowing that there's an alignment of value that makes me want to lean in and and and clear things, or if somebody's showing up in my field, that's also another sign for me. 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:47.359 Is like, oh, like I think we saw each other a couple of times, or Sasha had mentioned your name a couple times,

even in much more rapid order than you had been in my field for a while. 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:49.119 So I also try to listen to that. 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:51.279 That had me want to lean in. 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:52.799 Nice. 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.519 Thanks for that question, Hazel Grace. 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.960 So then, oh yeah, I was that's where I was going. 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:17.680 I fucking love repair conversations because I'll share what happened, but also my philosophy on them is I'm like, this is a really great opportunity to just get out of my story. 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:27.200 So even though ideally in repair, I'm like, wow, it'll be really nice if we can feel met and like shared responsibility, and I can really feel gotten in my world. 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:34.240 At minimum, I'm like, well, this is a cool opportunity to get out of my world, get into somebody else's world. 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:45.039 And I find that the only way to like fully do that is actually in the act of a really good repair conversation and like mirroring back to someone what they're saying. 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:55.440 And so that's something that I really just love the opportunity to do was like, wow, let me just get into Hazel Grace's world about what was going on. 00:20:55.599 --> 00:21:10.480 And then all of a sudden, as I do that, it's magical because I'm like, oh yeah, I like totally can see, even without their seeing my perspective yet, I can totally get over there and just be like, wow, okay, this makes so much more sense. 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.920 Like, this is just where they're coming from and their experience. 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:28.240 But what I what was most delightful was actually really feeling I just felt such a sincere empathy with the impact that you also had that you had on me. 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:31.519 And I was just like so touched by that. 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:44.319 And that and also not just the empathy, but also just the ability, like, wow, see from this other perspective, that for me just like made a full circle to like, wow, I I really respect this person. 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:48.480 Like we're gonna have breakdowns, we're gonna get hooked into our stuff. 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:59.440 But if if you can be someone who can get out of your own story enough to like really understand somebody else, like I have a lot of respect for that. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.720 Especially with something that can be tense breakdown or like a lot of emotional charge. 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:07.599 Thank you. 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:08.720 Yeah. 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:11.440 HG, what's happening for you right now? 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:25.920 I think like the celebration and the power of the mutuality that we both had, that we were both so stuck in these like assumptions or stories or hurt about the other person. 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:37.839 And for us to both mutually, as Spencer so eloquently said, like put down our own story and like really get over there and be like, what was that like? 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.160 Like, really, what was that like for you? 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:55.759 And then for both of us to equally take accountability and responsibility and to say, like, this is what we would have done differently, and have like deep empathy for the other person, that's what's coming up for me, of just like and it doesn't always go like that, right? 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:04.319 I guess I just want to like highlight and celebrate the the potency and the power of when it does, and it did in in this case. 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:09.519 And Hazel Grace, you referred to this, but I'm really curious. 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:31.279 So if if you're open to say more of like a a before and after uh because I think what you said at a little I'm right and I'm going in there and I have this care and commitment that I have, and what was if that was some of the before we and you referred after of like, oh my gosh, now I want to collaborate. 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:33.039 And I feel so much Justin Spencer. 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:39.119 Do you want to say anything else about like the perspective or feelings before and the perspective or feelings after? 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:41.039 I love the question. 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:48.480 And I want to be a good follow, but I noticed the that where I'm I feel drawn to go. 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:54.640 He's kind of talking a little bit more about the specifics of the event and the stories that I had created. 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:58.400 I think will support the before and the after. 00:23:59.119 --> 00:23:59.519 Awesome. 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:07.440 I kind of prefaced a few things about how challenging it was for me to be at that particular retreat. 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:17.599 And I didn't have the information in the context, the what was happening on the leadership team and the context setting until four years later. 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.720 So series of things where that happened over the weekend. 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:27.119 Like I said at the beginning, land acknowledgements are really important to me. 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.160 And it and the land acknowledgement was I got really triggered. 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:34.079 And I actually did stand up and I'm like, can I add something to this? 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:38.880 And my heart was racing, and I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna be accepted here and welcomed here. 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:40.880 And I don't know if care people care about this. 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:48.960 And so it like took a lot of calories to like stand up and say the thing that felt really important to me. 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:59.200 And I will say I was welcomed, like I did feel a sense of welcoming of me being like, actually, can I add to that land acknowledgement? 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:18.640 And you know, and I'm also tracking my nervous system four years ago and now,

and some of that like anger or like intensity has like settled, and I can be more in my grace, which is my everlasting work to continue to be more and more in my grace and speak up. 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:23.599 So that was like a layer, and then I use they them pronouns. 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:30.799 There wasn't like a centering of pronouns, and I kept being called she and I kept kind of having to speak up for myself. 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:56.559 So that was like taking calories, and then I had someone else that was who passes as white, and this is a very, very white space, which I'm actually familiar with very white spaces, but I had this person who was coming to me of saying, like, I'm having a hard time because I'm I'm white passing and this is important to me, and I don't know if I want to stay in this community because this is the thing that I keep rubbing up against. 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:06.240 And so I was like holding and supporting it felt like I was holding and supporting both myself and also kind of like the inclusion of other people. 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:12.720 So I just keep using this word like calories, like it was like, but without a lot of like allies or support. 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:22.000 And I think the culmination of the major rupture, those were like the things that led up to it. 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:30.480 And then when we were doing this like circle format, and I and this is the part where I'm like, I don't fully know why I made the choice that I did. 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.440 I raised my hand and I said, May I sit? 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:35.680 So embarrassing. 00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:36.319 It's okay. 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:36.880 I'm okay. 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:37.440 I'm okay. 00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:38.079 I'm okay. 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:42.000 Okay, so I'm like, may I sit in the front? 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:54.799 Because I have a share and I was allowed, and I got up there, and I, as I understood it, was like everything is welcome, all expressions are welcome. 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:57.119 And I was fire. 00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:02.319 I was like, I don't remember what I said, but it was very, very, very intense. 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:12.640 And I was kind of talk talking about these things and me not feeling safe and included and belonging in like how much labor this is, and I don't, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:14.640 So that is what I did. 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:16.400 That is what happened. 00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:27.599 And that is the part, if I could go backwards in time, if there was one thing I could have done differently, was just as at least just sit in my like participant seat and share from that place. 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:50.319 And I don't know if I would have actually expressed any differently, but I do, but I think the biggest thing I got from the repair conversation I had with Spencer is like, I could see that Spencer wasn't set up for success to hold all the complexities as that as we were saying, and and Spencer can share more for that. 00:27:50.480 --> 00:28:10.480 But I think then when I tell me kind of all like some of the background information didn't show up in care or support of Spencer as a leader in that moment or having the the magnitude of my expression that really was a bomb in this space. 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:15.519 So I'm gonna pause because I don't know what else to say right now, but that I want to pause there. 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:17.680 Thank you. 00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:22.480 Just before we go to you, Spencer, I just want to say, Hazel Grace, there was a moment. 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:24.400 Are you open for a little impact? 00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:24.880 Yeah. 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:30.079 There was a moment when you were relating that and you and you named some of the content and you went and blah, blah, blah. 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.880 And part of me wanted to go like, not blah, blah, blah. 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.279 Like this was your care. 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:37.200 This was your commitment. 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:39.279 And so I just want to dignify. 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:42.319 I hear you talk about the bomb and what you might do different. 00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:47.759 And for me as a listener and also somebody that cares about you and some of the things you care about. 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:51.440 And I think, like, this is what I liked about, you know, Spencer. 00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:54.240 You said it's good to get into this and to learn from it. 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:59.920 And for me, there's just the impulse to sort of dignify what you were fighting for. 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:23.359 Even if you might have fought for it a different way, it feels important to me to reflect back the way I feel galvanized towards you saying, hey, I want to feel included, even if my pronouns are not obvious to people, or even if race is not getting attended to, I want us to be able to be that open, that aware, that mutual. 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:29.519 So I just wanted to reflect that back and not kind of let that be un yeah. 00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:54.400 Yeah, and and I notice myself, like I'm I'm tearing up because even though it was messy, and even though my four-year-ago self was less um not as evolved as I am now, like I am very proud of the thing that I was standing for and speaking for. 00:29:54.640 --> 00:30:08.720 And I celebrate that if we were in that circle today, I would still find a way to speak and stand, but I would do it in a way that people could hear me and it wouldn't create such a bomb. 00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:39.440 And I feel like I have some like hesitation saying this, but like there was like there was a power and a strength that was coming through that like disassociated um when I was doing it, and and and it it felt like my ancestors were there of like giving me the strength and the power, and I just get to keep learning

from my ancestors of how to have that power and have that strength and speak up and do in a way that actually creates more connection versus disconnection. 00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:42.480 And that's my learning edge. 00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:47.920 Yeah, beautiful. 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:51.119 Thank you. 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:11.279 Yeah, yeah, no, it's what I'm present to is like the absolute complexity of the moment. 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:53.279 Yeah, just in terms of uh if I were gonna like write a Harvard business school case study on facilitation and like complex dynamics, I would choose that retreat we were on, just in terms of like all the layering needed to do something that like that anyways, but just kind of the way we were pointed in so many different directions, and then the context needed to be able to uh hold group shares like that and be able to work with with whatever's coming up. 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:54.880 That's a lot of what I'm with. 00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:57.519 Uh is just wow, it was a complex situation. 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:09.519 And I actually don't necessarily think it's I think there would be a different podcast about facilitation complexities and what was going on there, but that's that's all to say, you know. 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:31.920 I think it's just Hazel Grace was expressing something important to them in the best way they could at that time, and it also created a situation where I actually felt helpless to meet what was actually coming up in a way that would allow the container to metabolize it. 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:38.559 And I'm a very skilled facilitator, and so that's all to say that that that was quite a situation. 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:46.319 So I'm just in appreciation of the scar tissue that I have from that and how it helps me be a better facilitator now. 00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:51.759 Wow. 00:32:53.440 --> 00:33:17.119 I'm like, and it's it's funny because I mean I've I've done a lot of facilitation now, but I really appreciate the scar tissue and the and the times when things really break down in part because I'm like, well, I've been through some shit and uh I know we can really survive a lot and and keep moving forward and learn from it. 00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:26.559 So I just thought that that was beautiful and important, and ultimately I want to create spaces where people can like really stand for what matters for them. 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:28.640 You know, so that's really cool. 00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:39.200 And just from the repair conversation, what I found most valuable is Hazel Grace's ability. 00:33:39.440 --> 00:34:00.480 I mean, you mentioned feeling um embarrassed, but like your ability to hold yourself in compassion too for something you would have done differently, to hold yourself in compassion and also really be like, wow, Spencer, I can see from your perspective how that would have been a really impossible situation, too. 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:17.119 And I actually want to just highlight that in the spirit of uh repair, how important it is to be able to hold oneself in compassion or in dignity while also being able to. 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:29.440 I'll just say this for me, I think that m apologizing is a really beautiful thing in a repair that doesn't need to be I'm wrong. 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:49.599 It can be okay, I'm gonna hold myself in compassion and dignity enough to be able to be like, wow, I really feel sorry, I feel sorrow that I contributed at least to that impact that happened. 00:34:49.920 --> 00:35:06.559 And I I just want to highlight that I find that when people have too much shame to be able to hold themselves in dignity and compassion for things that there might be like actually, I kind of wish I did do that differently. 00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:10.559 If we have too much shame, we actually also can't land. 00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:17.039 It's it's rare to be able to fully land the apology or the empathy. 00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:33.760 And I've been really honestly in my own way studying that is like I have to be able to not lose my own goodness, my own sense of goodness in order to be like, wow, Hazel Grace, I can I'm so sorry. 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:37.360 I dropped the ball on following up with you or what you know. 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.559 I'm like I dropped the ball, you know? 00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:41.760 My bad. 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:42.800 Period. 00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:48.239 Like I don't need to, but if I am gonna lose my sense of goodness, right? 00:35:48.320 --> 00:36:04.480 If like my sense of goodness is at stake, if I made a mistake or not, or if I whatever avoided something, then is it it's not as available to me to just be like my my bad, you know. 00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:06.320 I like I miss that, you know. 00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:07.440 You know what I'm saying? 00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:15.280 I feel and I and I felt that you were also able to do that with me, which also has me trust you more as a collaborator. 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:25.440 That I'm like, shame is not running this person's life, honestly, shame is not running, and I actually think shame is running a lot of our a lot of in our culture. 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:27.599 I think that that's what's happening basically. 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:51.920 So um that has me, and I just had a repair the other day where ninety-seven percent of the conversation was either them talking or me getting their world zero percent curiosity about my experience, or and then I'd say about three percent of them being like, Well, I can see how you da-da-da. 00:36:52.159 --> 00:37:06.159 So, like about three percent self-responsibility, and so I just contrast that with our repair, where I really felt you get in my world and hold yourself in compassion enough to be like, Oh, I do feel a bit embarrassed, but like that's okay. 00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:10.400 I can feel embarrassed and empathize, right? 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:12.079 That's so

powerful. 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.679 I love what you just shared, Spencer. 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:20.719 I'm sorry, doesn't have to mean I'm wrong. 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.679 So powerful. 00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:40.719 Spencer, we when when I heard you say, you know, we could do a whole nother podcast on the complexity of the facilitation, and that was poignant of uh like that would be a great Harvard research study to go back and and research that one. 00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:51.840 But I do want to highlight that is actually a big part of our repair was for me to understand how was this thing funded? 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:53.280 What were you told? 00:37:53.440 --> 00:38:36.079 What were your responsibilities, and to also acknowledge and name that there was like a lot of cross-cultural communities that did there wasn't like this cohesive thing, and and I think I think it did make it tricky that it was like people were paying a fair amount of money, but it wasn't really like a professional thing, but you were leading it, and so it was in this like gray zone that I I think was the thing that had me really have empathy and compassion for how I showed up in that moment and just like what what what you were holding. 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:45.760 So I guess I just want to say like that the complexity of it does seem like the core piece of it to me for understanding what it was like for you and the impact that I had on you. 00:38:47.280 --> 00:39:14.800 Yeah, I I was uh unpaid, full working facilitator holding uh gender, race, indigenous rights, um sexuality, trauma, sexuality, trauma, ten different communities coming together with their own context on what you know, on what we were supposed to be doing there, like challenges with my ex-partner. 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:19.119 So um, yeah. 00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:35.360 I think there's some something to me that feels really sweet about remembering that everything that may look like a rupture between two people is sitting in a whole set of nested contexts. 00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:47.599 And it can be like A and B, oh A and B and this thing happened, and you know, can they repair and like absolutely bow and respect into that? 00:39:47.840 --> 00:40:12.880 And the world's the world's who's exhausted, who just got bad news, who's who's reeling from a rupture that just happened before that, and you know, who's in a social context where they get missed over and over and over, and then then it looks like this, but like what else, what else is acting on all of us? 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:28.320 Yeah, and I like I really like the term uh shared reality, and I I use I'd say I have a couple different levels of like repair that I'm interested in. 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:38.079 Sometimes, sometimes I just want to clear something, or somebody wants to clear something with me, and I'm like, I actually don't need to have a shared reality with this person for whatever reason. 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:46.960 Maybe they're

a client, maybe they're someone where I am just not that invested, but I'm like, I'm happy to clear. 00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:52.000 And so that's more like there's a layer of like, okay, let me just fully get their world, right? 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.079 Like here they're for them. 00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:54.960 Yeah, it's for them. 00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:57.039 Let me just fully get their world. 00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:02.960 I'm gonna play it back, I'm gonna empathize, uh, you know, I'm gonna understand the impact, whatever. 00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:08.719 I just want to clear the energy that's here, and then and then there's shared reality. 00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:39.679 And I what I really like about the terminology of shared reality is that in order for it to happen, we have to understand two different experiences coming together enough to be like, okay, based on this data, this like irrefutable data, these facts, somebody had this experience and these emotions and and even these triggers based on their likely early childhood life. 00:41:39.840 --> 00:42:03.440 And then I had my own experience and emotions and stories and triggers related to the same set of facts, and if we can both do that now, we're like, oh, there's now a reality that we are actually sharing versus like, no, this is what happened, no, that like that's what happened. 00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:10.320 This is really what happened, you really didn't get this, and I really I just like that context of shared reality. 00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:19.280 Um but what it takes is I think being able to inhabit somebody else's story for a while. 00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:23.519 Yeah, it can I jump in and say something about that? 00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:24.320 Yeah, yeah. 00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:37.519 So in the repair process, the fourth step is called acknowledge, which is like let's acknowledge what happened, and the goal is to get to shared reality, which is what you talked about. 00:42:37.840 --> 00:43:01.920 And something I recently have been saying, which cut dovetails on what you were talking about about not being wrong and dignity and um protecting one's goodness, because sometimes I think what it takes to get to shared reality is a version of an ego death. 00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:16.400 Because it's like in order for me to believe and get your reality, there's a fear that if I get and believe your reality, that means my reality is invalid. 00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:23.440 And if my reality is invalid, that might mean that I'm not good in some way, and if I'm not good, then da-da-da-da-da, so forth. 00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:28.000 So, um, yes, shared reality is the goal of the acknowledged step. 00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:32.000 And it is uh a doozy and it's hard because it's confronting. 00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:42.480 It's a power thing, powerful thing to disconnect just because I believe and understand your reality doesn't mean that that invalidates my reality. 00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:50.719 And that's some of the deepest work sometimes with repair that not everyone is ready for or capable of yet. 00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.960 Yeah, nothing. 00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:59.760 I don't I I don't think that there's anything that can grow your consciousness. 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:23.199 And capacity more than like getting into a doozy of a repair and being able to inhabit a reality that like really confronts your own, and that exactly it's like you don't need to eat five grams of mushrooms to have an ego death. 00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:30.159 Like you can just repair with that person where your ego is like, no, it really did not happen that way. 00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:31.280 It did not. 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.679 And I think that's it's actually really beautiful. 00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:58.800 And I I actually credit conversations like the ones we had with uh so much of my development, and actually, really people who cared about me a lot enough in earlier times in my life who actually were willing to stop and be like, dude, like let me show you what it looks like to get into your reality. 00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:05.599 I'm gonna do that right now, and then just doing it and be like, oh wow, like okay, that's what that is. 00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:09.519 But I I think that addition of yeah, there's an ego death. 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:18.000 There or there absolutely can be, especially if they're saying something that your mind is like, that absolutely did not happen. 00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:19.360 Totally. 00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:39.440 And right, and then enough sense of embodied safety not to have that like totally shake your world that you're then gonna be somehow unsafe because you know, and I know then there's complexity in in relationships, but um, I appreciate that. 00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:52.159 Yeah, there's something I feel is present in this moment, listening to you both, witnessing you both, that um Hazel Grace, I might ask you to speak to. 00:45:52.239 --> 00:46:03.360 And it's a quality of things that having been repaired after breakage are even more beautiful, more meaningful, more strong. 00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:13.760 And I can still remember the first time that you shared this distinction with me that comes from Japanese culture of Kinsugi. 00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:16.639 And would you be willing to just say a little? 00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:19.199 Because to me, I feel like it's really present. 00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:20.159 Yeah. 00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:40.320 So I got this distinction from one of my great teachers, Tara Anderson, and the concept of Kinsugi, which is a Japanese art form that takes broken ceramics and puts it back together with gold, uh, and it makes it more beautiful and and stronger than it than it was before it broke. 00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:44.800 And that is how I feel about the power of repair. 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:52.800 And what I often ask my guests on this podcast at the end of is like, what what are the gifts?

00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:56.800 What what what are we receiving because we went through this rupture? 00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.559 And I'll ask myself, I'll go first. 00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:28.079 Um I was like deeply sad by how distance and upset and like not trusting of Spencer for four years, and like even he his stuff would come up on Facebook, and it would like it would be a visceral experience in my body, or I would sometimes like see him, and I was just like, it took up space and energy. 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:43.039 And to know that I have the capacity and the willingness to show up in this repair and to be met with Spencer, it feels like a testament of what's possible. 00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:53.519 And I was shocked by the end of our second repair conversation. 00:47:53.679 --> 00:48:04.079 I I remember I'm like, I don't even know how I'm saying this right now, but I was like, I know this might sound kind of bananas, but like maybe we could collaborate. 00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:07.119 Like it was a very quick turnaround. 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:13.360 And I will say that a month after I said that, you messaged me. 00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:15.920 Spencer was like, hey, I'm doing a festival. 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:17.199 Do you want to come teach? 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:18.719 And I was like, yeah. 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:28.639 So that is coming up, and I'm gonna be facilitating at a festival, Revel festival in Colorado that Spencer is leading. 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:39.199 So the the speed, and also I just want to say too, like, there is a speed to it, like there was a quickness to it, but I trust the groundedness in it. 00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:45.920 I trust the sustainability, I trust the maturity in it, where maybe I don't always trust that in the past. 00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:50.480 And and the part that I trust is, and Spencer said this earlier. 00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:58.000 I believe this will not be the first time that Spencer and I have ruffled each other, and that excites me. 00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:04.480 And and there are still times where Spencer says stuff on Facebook that I'm like, really, really pro? 00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:05.360 Like, really? 00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:12.480 But now I I feel desirous enough and safe enough to actually have a conversation. 00:49:12.639 --> 00:49:29.360 And so what I trust part of me does trust that we'll this won't probably be our first rupture or only rupture, but I trust more than anything is our ability to to meet each other and to get to the other side and be better humans because of it. 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:47.199 Yeah, and what I I mean what I love about it is I actually well I only want to deeply relate with people who I can repair hard shit with. 00:49:47.360 --> 00:50:02.880 And actually, it's one of the biggest points of evidence for me of relationships that I do want to deepen is have we, you know, have have we been able to have really good repair? 00:50:03.039 --> 00:50:23.280 And as far

as the collaboration goes, it's actually perfect because what I I I've I mean, the the theme of reconciliation between the genders um and the ways we were socialized in our sexuality has been just important to me for a long time and it's coming back around again. 00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:26.480 And so that felt like, oh, I really want to anchor this at Revel. 00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:30.480 Hazel Grace feels like this awesome person to bring this. 00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:36.000 And I've actually, I'm like, and should we facilitate that together? 00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:42.000 And what feels awesome about that is like, well, we just did it in a way, right? 00:50:42.159 --> 00:51:03.760 We just did it, and so that is even more like, wow, there's actually even like integrity, deeper integrity in offering that workshop because we're we're living it rather than like the idea of like, well, I like this stuff and you like that stuff and we like it together, so let's go do it. 00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:21.119 So that's I just think there's so I it also allows me to just when I'm able to have a repair, you know, in this instance with Hazel Grace, I just honestly have a lot more respect for myself too. 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:37.360 You know, I'm like, I'm that dude that can just need it, you know, and I I think in the spaces that each the three of us play in, shit can go down, right? 00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:41.840 Things can get hard, um, big energies move. 00:51:42.400 --> 00:52:02.880 And I, you know, I one of the reasons I I trust myself to lead is I am like I would am here to meet I'm not always gonna meet it perfectly in the moment for sure, but I trust myself to come back because I have ev because I have evidence that I I do and I will and I can. 00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:06.880 So yeah, it's just grateful to have that opportunity. 00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:15.039 If you are watching and listening to this, just let yourself connect with yourself here. 00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:19.199 Just see how this conversation is touching you. 00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:25.280 Let yourself have space and attention for whatever's happening for you. 00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:31.199 I I I really want to tell this really quick story as a way to like round it out. 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:48.239 I was running facilitating, producing this intimacy retreat many years ago in Colorado, and the art of repair was three months old, and this was the first group that I ever taught the art of repair. 00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:53.280 It was fresh, hot off the channel from the oak tree. 00:52:53.760 --> 00:53:15.199 And I taught it like on a Friday, and the next day was the most biggest rupture I had ever had as a leader in my field, and I was so terrified because I was like, people are never gonna trust me, I need to quit. 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:23.119 It was it, I I was I was being dramatic and blowing it out of proportion because I it was just really scary. 00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:26.960 And so I was like, Well, this is useful, they know the repair process. 00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:31.199 Let me do the repair process with the group as the leader. 00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:48.719 And I even screwed up the repair process as I was doing the repair process, and I had several people come up to me and they said, that was so cathartic. 00:53:49.679 --> 00:54:00.239 I have never seen a leader stand in front of a group actively in the moment and take full accountability and responsibility and do a repair process with me. 00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:13.920 And somehow it goes back to why did we, why did I say yes to do this conversation is because I think what's missing in a lot of leadership is what Spencer and I just did. 00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:26.480 Of like, we're we're imperfect, here are our flaws, and and look at our our gold that we just created from the broken pieces that we put back together. 00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:29.280 Tasha, thank you so much. 00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:33.519 So, so so skilled, so talented. 00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:38.079 What a what a delight to get to sit in this seat and be held and guided by you. 00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:43.840 And Spencer, thank you for your generosity and yeah, just showing up in the way that you have and are. 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:49.440 And I'm stoked about collaborating with you at this festival that's coming up. 00:54:50.239 --> 00:54:51.280 Fireworks. 00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:58.320 Anything else as we say goodbye to this conversation? 00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:14.239 I want to acknowledge you, Hazel Grace, for the years of self-cultivation and making mistakes and learning and taking risks and having fun. 00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:25.119 And to me, you know, today it's the three of us sitting here, but I can almost feel someone who will get something from this that will really touch their life. 00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:29.679 And and what I'm present to is that's not that didn't start an hour ago. 00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:39.679 You you have worked for a very long time to have a community of people who go, oh, Hazel Grace made a podcast, let me listen to that. 00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:43.840 So acknowledge your years on path. 00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:45.119 Thank you. 00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:46.000 Yeah. 00:55:46.480 --> 00:55:54.159 Yeah, I want to I want to thank you, Hazel Grace, for the beautiful opening, the beautiful opening. 00:55:54.239 --> 00:56:07.760 And I want to say to anybody that's made it this far in the listening, just such a strong encouragement to go lean in to a repair with somebody that matters. 00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:18.159 And if you've discounted how much they matter to you to protect yourself from the pain of being disconnected, then could be a good moment to acknowledge that. 00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:40.719 And I'll just say nothing has impacted my life more than forgiving my parents and having repair conversations with my parents, especially where I wasn't really needing them to get my world so much, but to just lean into wanting to understand them and be curious and and to share uh some things that were hard for me. 00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:46.639 So just a little plug for repair and and and going to a hard one, if you can. 00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:56.239 Fastest way to create secure attachment in yourself and in your relationship is family of origin. 00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:58.639 Oh yeah. 00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:00.800 Thanks for that encouragement. 00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:02.480 I echo that. 00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:04.719 Bless your lives. 00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:05.599 Thank you both. 00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:07.039 And thank you, Sasha. 00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:08.159 Thank you both. 00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:09.840 Good to be with you. 00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:15.760 Thank you for joining us on the Relational Repair Podcast. 00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:21.199 A heartfelt thank you to our guests for their honesty, vulnerability, and courage. 00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:25.760 Conversations like this remind me that most people aren't trying to hurt each other. 00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:32.159 We're simply navigating relationships with the tools, wounds, and wisdom we've gathered along the way. 00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:40.079 If you'd like more honest conversations about conflict, intimacy, and connection, be sure to follow the Relational Repair Podcast. 00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:45.840 And if you'd like to learn more about the art of repair, you can visit drhazelgraves.com. 00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:49.440 Until next time, remember to repair with care.