Demonstration: Jesus' Example for Disciple-Making의 전체 녹취록

are starting to disciple others. It's been great to hear from 02:29.563 --> 02:32.112 y'all as well. Yeah, I have a, I have a friend of mine here at 02:32.612 --> 02:35.434 this— at my church here at Pine Forest who, um, 02:36.204 --> 02:39.767 he's like, you've been preaching on disciple-making, talking about 02:39.815 --> 02:42.993 disciple-making for— I mean, that's just kind of been what you've been talking about for 02:43.089 --> 02:46.363 a long time. He said, so I've got a buddy of mine in Texas 02:47.839 --> 02:51.001 who, uh, was— we were just talking. He says, 02:51.113 --> 02:53.664 I want to kind of I want to kind of go deeper in my faith. 02:54.000 --> 02:57.673 And so my friend said, well, let me help. Let me disciple you through this. 02:57.721 --> 03:01.233 He goes, my pastor's been talking to us about this. I want to do this 03:01.733 --> 03:05.065 with you. So they're meeting on a phone call once a week. Yeah, great. 03:05.386 --> 03:09.363 And my friend basically just took initiative with it all 03:09.491 --> 03:12.842 because seeing how it's being lived out in real life. 03:13.580 --> 03:16.531 Yeah, that's the beauty of technology. You know, like we're, you know, 03:16.611 --> 03:19.834 you and I, we're not in the same room. We're recording this podcast 03:20.334 --> 03:22.753 from 3 different locations. And I know more and more, 03:23.859 --> 03:27.818 disciple-making groups that are happening over Zoom and 03:28.812 --> 03:32.178 guys that are in, and ladies that are in totally 03:32.678 --> 03:36.138 different locations. And yet somehow the Lord works through it all, so it's awesome. 03:36.491 --> 03:40.081 It is awesome. Well, we are going to talk about 03:40.097 --> 03:43.961 how the Lord showed the disciples how to live 03:44.461 --> 03:47.792 and how we are to demonstrate this faithful, 03:47.968 --> 03:51.094 obedient living, this modeled life 03:51.594 --> 03:55.760 that Jesus laid out for us through prayer, Scripture, ministry, to people 03:55.824 --> 03:59.228 and dependence on the Father. He didn't just explain 03:59.340 --> 04:03.371 it, he showed it, he lived it. This is the part 04:03.515 --> 04:07.690 of disciple-making that is not necessarily 04:07.770 --> 04:11.286 information-based or even skills-based, although those two things 04:11.318 --> 04:15.075 are certainly there, but a major part of disciple-making 04:15.108 --> 04:18.656 is character building, and the demonstration of a life 04:19.025 --> 04:22.525 lived, an obedient life lived, is a character-building thing, 04:23.826 --> 04:27.645 and I'm a big believer that you can't I can't pass 04:27.837 --> 04:32.003 on to you knowledge of character. 04:32.163 --> 04:36.105 I have to demonstrate to you what integrity 04:36.169 --> 04:40.367 looks like. I have to demonstrate to you what having 04:40.415 --> 04:43.604 a good character is like. And Jesus certainly 04:43.716 --> 04:47.369 does this with the disciples. 04:47.705 --> 04:50.397 He gives them an example to live by, 04:50.589 --> 04:53.954 to reach for. So I'm going to turn it 04:54.454 --> 04:57.673 over to Allen, who is going to open up Coleman's book 04:57.737 --> 05:01.311 for us and kind of lead our discussion. Yeah, so I'm 05:01.504 --> 05:04.678 gonna open up the scriptures as well. Oh, boom! Oh, 05:04.934 --> 05:08.188 boom! Come on, lift up your sights there, Brett. 05:09.198 --> 05:13.045 Coleman's good. So this next step in 05:13.545 --> 05:17.213 Jesus' master plan was demonstration. He demonstrated 05:17.713 --> 05:21.205 a life of following the Lord, 05:21.365 --> 05:23.577 of following the Father, listening to the Father, 05:24.747 --> 05:28.325 and he set an example for the disciples. To do that. And so 05:28.758 --> 05:32.290 I'm gonna just read a couple passages real quick. 05:32.435 --> 05:35.758 I'm gonna use the example of prayer 05:36.625 --> 05:40.013 because early in Mark, 05:40.864 --> 05:44.059 Mark 1:35, it says, and rising very early in 05:44.091 --> 05:47.447 the morning while it was still dark, he departed, 05:47.527 --> 05:50.674 Jesus departed and went out to a desolate place and 05:51.174 --> 05:54.415 there he prayed. And Simon and those who were with him 05:54.463 --> 05:58.381 searched for him and they found him and said to him, everyone's looking for 05:58.881 --> 06:01.370 you. And then Jesus says, we're gonna go here, we're gonna go there. 06:03.894 --> 06:07.551 So really kind of, you could easily read over that passage 06:08.051 --> 06:11.433 and not think anything about it, but this was a regular practice of Jesus 06:11.933 --> 06:15.050 to get up before the sun came up to go out and to be with 06:15.550 --> 06:18.962 the Father in prayer. And he didn't tell 06:19.462 --> 06:21.904 the disciples where he was going. He didn't tell the disciples what he was doing, 06:22.131 --> 06:25.214 but he did it. And so when they go looking for him, Guess what they 06:25.714 --> 06:29.784 find? They find him praying. Yeah. And this hap— I believe 06:30.284 --> 06:33.521 this happened either daily or very regularly. 06:34.756 --> 06:37.947 And so when we get to— we get 06:38.447 --> 06:41.155 later on, is it Luke 11? Is that right? 06:45.581 --> 06:46.655 They've seen Jesus pray. 06:49.334 --> 06:52.429 And Luke 11:1 says, now Jesus was praying in a 06:52.461 --> 06:55.785 certain place, and when he finished, One of his disciples 06:56.285 --> 06:59.919 said to him, Lord, teach us to pray as John taught his disciples. 07:00.498 --> 07:03.590 And he said to them, when you pray, say, Father, hallowed be your name. 07:03.671 --> 07:07.101 Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. Forgive us our sins, 07:08.003 --> 07:11.884 for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into 07:12.126 --> 07:15.357 temptation. So he teaches them the Lord's Prayer. 07:17.530 --> 07:21.577 So I just use that example. So the disciples saw Jesus regularly, 07:22.924 --> 07:24.447 go off and be with

the Lord. 07:25.714 --> 07:29.354 And in Mark, it looks like they didn't 07:29.854 --> 07:32.417 know where he was, didn't know what he was doing. They probably began to notice 07:32.465 --> 07:34.197 this pattern. And then finally, 07:35.015 --> 07:38.623 it's like, I bet you the disciples are, hey, hey, you go ask him, 07:38.703 --> 07:42.183 you go ask him. Teach us to pray like 07:42.311 --> 07:46.544 John's taught his disciples. And so this was something each rabbi would teach his 07:46.641 --> 07:50.457 disciples, those students, how to pray, and this 07:50.586 --> 07:53.793 is the model that Jesus gave his disciples and he gives us. 07:54.499 --> 07:57.850 And so I just think that's really neat that, um, it's just a really 07:57.883 --> 08:01.395 good example of showing how we 08:01.411 --> 08:05.131 are meant to demonstrate our walk with those that 08:05.163 --> 08:09.301 we're discipling, that it is, um, they're to see, 08:09.349 --> 08:12.781 they're to model what we are to do, which, I mean, it's a— 08:12.797 --> 08:14.449 man, it's convicting when I really think about it. 08:15.204 --> 08:18.818 Yeah. Which means you have to have practices 08:19.318 --> 08:21.758 yourself if you're going to disciple people. 08:22.754 --> 08:25.902 You've got to have those practices in place so that you can model them for 08:25.951 --> 08:29.244 others. I mean, I know in the guys that I disciple, I'm telling them all 08:29.744 --> 08:33.324 the time, here's how I read scripture. Here's how I pray. Here's how I do 08:33.340 --> 08:37.019 this. But what's the convicting piece to that is I need to be regularly 08:37.131 --> 08:40.746 doing that myself so that I 08:41.246 --> 08:42.159 have a model to show them. 08:44.344 --> 08:47.942 I think, you know, I hear, you know, the phrase, uh, especially, especially in parenting, 08:48.134 --> 08:51.989 more is caught than taught. Yeah. Um, and that may 08:52.070 --> 08:55.250 be true. I think you ought to teach, right? I mean, teaching is, is, 08:55.507 --> 08:58.719 is important. Uh, I think obviously we've talked about this in the, 08:58.800 --> 09:03.104 in the church today. We've spent a lot of time on knowledge and 09:03.152 --> 09:06.333 gaining knowledge and thinking that's the only way to, um, 09:06.686 --> 09:11.043 basically to disciple is to teach. 09:11.543 --> 09:14.583 Um, but that needs to be, um, 09:15.419 --> 09:19.275 paired with modeling and, um, living out 09:19.775 --> 09:22.875 an example for those to see that, hey, you're— it's like your walk 09:23.375 --> 09:27.814 matches your talk idea. Yeah, that's a really good 09:28.314 --> 09:31.288 point. Before I share a thought, Alan, I have to— I really have to correct 09:31.515 --> 09:35.300 you on something very important. Okay, please. Please correct him and make it 09:35.800 --> 09:39.420 good. We're talking about the Lord's Prayer, right? Right. When Jesus prayed 09:39.920 --> 09:40.710 it, it was just the prayer. 09:45.630 --> 09:48.780 Okay, no, I like that. The prayer example is really good, and the movement that 09:49.280 --> 09:52.440 you described— you had me scared for a moment. I didn't know where he was 09:52.940 --> 09:55.540 gonna go with that. Yeah, I mean, it was a perfect joke. It's absolutely, 09:56.040 --> 09:59.380 you know, 100%. It's a banger in the dad joke realm for sure. That joke 09:59.880 --> 10:03.680 was gas. It was low-key gas. Um, it was low-key gas. 10:04.180 --> 10:07.635 Uh, speaking of which, Loki season 2 is out on Disney Plus. 10:07.700 --> 10:11.282 No, so the prayer— It's been out for a while. Yeah. As long as 10:11.314 --> 10:15.074 Gary Vaynerchuk says. Hey, at least it's something 10:15.476 --> 10:20.006 that's not from the '80s like Brett does. All right. Now to 10:20.055 --> 10:22.416 watch Jesus Over Time and be like, hey, I want to do that. 10:22.882 --> 10:26.851 But this is one of the pieces that's great about demonstration 10:27.043 --> 10:30.385 is they've got— imagine this. Imagine it's me in 10:30.417 --> 10:33.403 the same kind of context about praying. Um, 10:34.108 --> 10:36.400 I want to do that. You're telling me about it. You're telling me what it 10:36.448 --> 10:39.574 does. You're kind of, I hear what it's like. It's about talking to 10:40.074 --> 10:42.539 God. It's about hearing from God. That's awesome. Um, 10:43.741 --> 10:47.411 great. If I try it all by myself, it'll be like the 10:47.911 --> 10:51.401 time that, um, I first got into a stick shift car and tried to 10:51.417 --> 10:55.008 figure out how to drive that thing. You know, like I know how it works, 10:55.985 --> 10:59.527 but I don't know the embodied experience of it. I don't, I can't see 11:00.027 --> 11:03.685 what it looks like for someone to do it. Um, And so to watch Jesus 11:04.185 --> 11:07.436 pray and to pray with Jesus, as you take the information that 11:07.484 --> 11:10.511 is taught from taking the disciples from the scriptures already, 11:11.413 --> 11:14.869 from the ways that they've seen prayer through their synagogue life, 11:15.507 --> 11:18.504 and then to watch Jesus do it says, you know, he does this in the 11:18.536 --> 11:21.910 morning. And it gives me a sense of maybe I want 11:22.410 --> 11:26.490 to, I see what it sounds like and feels like to 11:26.990 --> 11:29.683 pray. I feel I sense in this man, 11:30.341 --> 11:34.082 God-man, um, a sense of what it's like to be a praying person. 11:34.131 --> 11:37.567 So you start to embody— it's almost taking the knowledge and making 11:37.663 --> 11:40.955 it incarnate. Um, there's a little bit of theology for 11:41.455 --> 11:44.985 you, incarnation. Um, because I think about things that I 11:45.049 --> 11:47.618 kind of want to see you do it, like, I completely get it, can you 11:48.118 --> 11:51.247 show me real quick and then we'll go? It's kind of like, have you seen 11:51.747 --> 11:55.165 the videos of recording the SOPs Like, um, 11:55.181 --> 11:58.568 standard operating

procedures, instead of writing 'em out, you can get some AI 11:59.082 --> 12:02.871 app to record your screen so that you can show somebody step by step. 12:03.176 --> 12:07.126 It's kind of the, this, a similar vibe is you can write out the steps, 12:07.592 --> 12:10.321 you can write the knowledge, but to see it in front of you and then 12:10.821 --> 12:13.869 to feel it and to experience the relationship of it is one of the things 12:14.369 --> 12:17.931 I think demonstration makes so powerful. So I think you've got to have 12:18.028 --> 12:21.655 the knowledge for it. Well, you have to have some knowledge for it, 12:22.440 --> 12:26.401 and sometimes you gotta see it, and you gotta see it in flesh. 12:26.850 --> 12:30.137 I think it also lifts up the kind of communal nature of some of 12:30.637 --> 12:33.264 this stuff. And what I mean by that is, you know, you hear from some 12:33.764 --> 12:37.016 people, well, I'll just pray the way that I want to, 12:37.033 --> 12:39.999 I feel like it, or I'll worship the way I want to, or I feel 12:40.499 --> 12:44.024 like it. Like, it real becomes individualistic type, uh, where they 12:44.524 --> 12:48.846 ever actually worship at all. That's what, that's what usually happens is they I 12:49.346 --> 12:54.266 think that's probably part of the issue, but the 12:55.424 --> 12:58.567 big issue I think here is it lifts up that a lot of this is 12:58.600 --> 13:00.943 passed on from— it's like a generational thing from, 13:02.380 --> 13:05.091 here's how I do it, here's how I do it. It's good to copy. 13:05.656 --> 13:09.466 It's good to do the— this is where the saints are really helpful for 13:09.514 --> 13:12.898 us, the prayers of the saints, the lives of the saints. We can learn a 13:13.398 --> 13:18.047 lot from the historic church. The traditions of the church in these areas. 13:20.249 --> 13:22.250 In other words, we don't have to reinvent the wheel on any of this. 13:22.331 --> 13:25.865 Okay, Boomer, you can learn stuff from old folk? Yes, very much 13:25.962 --> 13:29.859 so. Yes, yes. I think it's a reminder to 13:31.401 --> 13:35.526 live with those that you're discipling. It's not just the group 13:36.026 --> 13:38.828 time, it's being around them, 13:40.084 --> 13:43.728 doing life together. 'Cause where else 13:44.228 --> 13:47.868 are they gonna see how some of this is lived out? Right. 13:48.576 --> 13:51.729 That's right. That's right. 13:52.099 --> 13:55.620 One of my favorite stories of Jesus demonstrating for his disciples 13:55.732 --> 13:59.553 is actually Jesus washing the disciples' feet 13:59.666 --> 14:03.788 in John 12, 13, 12, 13, and 13. 14:06.456 --> 14:09.932 'Cause he tells them to go, basically go and Do likewise. 14:11.088 --> 14:14.268 Go and do this. This is the example I've set for you. Yeah, this is 14:14.300 --> 14:17.399 the example I've set for you to do. And it's interesting because at the beginning 14:17.447 --> 14:20.738 of that, Peter wants no part of it. Well, the part 14:20.899 --> 14:23.934 he wants to do the washing, he goes, I need to be washing your feet, 14:23.998 --> 14:28.670 Jesus. And Jesus is showing Peter 14:29.170 --> 14:31.914 something very important. Now, how does this translate over? We've seen that. 14:32.604 --> 14:36.425 Go to the letters of Peter. These letters 14:36.618 --> 14:40.214 that are written in a response to correspondence 14:40.714 --> 14:43.778 that Peter's been getting from early Christians who are 14:44.164 --> 14:47.615 being mistreated, persecuted by 14:48.115 --> 14:51.453 pagan masters. In the early church, most Christians, 14:51.469 --> 14:55.290 if not all Christians, were poor. A lot of them were servants in households, 14:55.867 --> 14:59.945 or they were working for pagan masters 15:00.282 --> 15:04.718 and being mistreated because of such. And so part 15:05.218 --> 15:07.032 of the correspondence that got back to Peter was, 15:08.601 --> 15:11.789 what do we do about this? Can we rise up against our masters? 15:11.837 --> 15:14.940 Can we rise up against our overlords? Which is so 15:14.989 --> 15:18.428 interesting because Peter has 15:18.541 --> 15:22.741 some experience in this, going into the 15:22.984 --> 15:26.613 garden, pulling out a sword, all of that kind of stuff. 15:27.990 --> 15:31.606 And no, what Peter will say is, you basically 15:32.202 --> 15:36.196 wash their feet. This is the example by which 15:36.534 --> 15:40.013 I was given, and this is the example I'm giving you. So you can almost 15:40.513 --> 15:44.564 see this kind of generational passing 15:44.660 --> 15:48.511 on of this character, of these practices 15:50.165 --> 15:52.517 later on, even after Jesus passed it on to Peter. 15:56.205 --> 16:00.375 All right. So What practices 16:00.811 --> 16:04.509 do we want to model on purpose for those that we are 16:05.009 --> 16:08.977 discipling? I think here's a great example, 16:09.493 --> 16:13.134 and it comes, you know, in some of our discipleship tools, we do kind 16:13.634 --> 16:16.840 of a small weekly Bible study template, right? 16:18.273 --> 16:20.383 And in one of the groups I'm doing, I think this is what y'all are 16:20.883 --> 16:24.087 doing too, is, you know, we just take a few minutes around Why don't 16:24.587 --> 16:27.989 you share, you know, your study, what you, what you learned, and then your application 16:28.037 --> 16:32.581 and such. And I think it is really helpful for 16:32.613 --> 16:35.487 us to be demonstrating that with each other, but also for, for me to be 16:35.987 --> 16:39.405 in to demonstrate, hey, you know, as I'm reading, 16:39.437 --> 16:42.552 this is what I'm doing. And they'll ask, I mean, I've had people 16:43.052 --> 16:46.502 asking very practical questions like, when are you doing this? Yeah. 16:46.823 --> 16:49.697 Like, what time of day are you doing this? Yeah. Yeah. How much time are 16:50.197 --> 16:52.683 you spending on it? So it's just the stuff that you really need to see,

16:53.245 --> 16:56.777 but also to be able to see how 16:56.857 --> 17:00.147 things get up. How do you apply this? Yeah, 17:01.094 --> 17:04.481 that gets— that's a step sometimes for people is 17:04.981 --> 17:08.734 how do you apply this? And then I get the opportunity to enjoy 17:09.234 --> 17:12.987 that myself. But also as I'm writing down the application point 17:13.487 --> 17:17.144 for a daily study, then I can also say, hey, here's how it can— how 17:17.224 --> 17:19.792 I draw a conclusion from that, from the scripture. But I can also say, 17:20.594 --> 17:23.073 here's a vulnerability that I can demonstrate to you. 17:23.786 --> 17:27.039 Or also, here are the various ways that you can say, 17:28.480 --> 17:30.492 you know, the Bible might apply to me this way, this way, this way, 17:30.508 --> 17:34.115 or this way. So you don't get locked into, I must be a 17:34.147 --> 17:36.880 better person. You can say, 17:37.612 --> 17:41.044 it causes me to pray, or wants me to reflect, or I 17:41.544 --> 17:44.913 need to have a conversation, things of that nature. So that's 17:45.413 --> 17:47.687 just one way, just even in something as simple as reading scripture, 17:48.523 --> 17:51.558 Yeah. Together. Yeah. Um, and the nuances 17:51.574 --> 17:55.026 of that. Um, there's a, I was working with, 17:55.251 --> 17:58.800 uh, a younger person about to start. Actually, I'm about to start this 17:59.300 --> 18:02.493 practice with one of my children. Uh, we both 18:02.993 --> 18:06.025 want to read together the Bible and he wants to read some too. So we're 18:06.525 --> 18:09.734 going to text back and forth and then meet. So we text back and forth 18:09.798 --> 18:13.218 as the accountability to do it, but we're just gonna have like 3 simple questions. 18:13.956 --> 18:17.226 And I'm gonna just use the simple questions so that we can go back and 18:17.242 --> 18:20.897 forth so that he can feel its accessibility and he can see 18:21.587 --> 18:24.841 the regularity with which I'm doing that. Yeah. Without being overwhelming. 18:25.338 --> 18:28.287 So what do you think? I really, I think that's great. And the scripture, 18:28.383 --> 18:32.054 I even this morning in meeting with this guy for the first time, I was 18:32.102 --> 18:35.661 talking to him about, 'cause his weakest area is 18:35.837 --> 18:38.867 in the word. And so I was saying, well, 18:38.883 --> 18:42.298 here's what I do kind of in a, you know, that I 18:42.346 --> 18:46.065 share with others and I practice this myself. It is the 18:46.097 --> 18:49.849 whole kind of Lectio way of doing it, and is reading a passage of Scripture. 18:50.201 --> 18:53.937 How does it make me feel? Or what is it saying? 18:55.011 --> 18:58.009 Or what am I hearing? How does it make me feel? 18:58.522 --> 19:02.194 And what am I supposed to do? And so reading 19:02.226 --> 19:05.657 the Scripture kind of 3 times through, asking one 19:06.157 --> 19:09.184 of those questions after each reading, you

get into the Scripture, you get into a 19:09.684 --> 19:13.337 rhythm, and you're not bogged down by, well, I don't know the original languages, 19:13.449 --> 19:16.929 or I don't know the original context. You can really just read it for 19:17.382 --> 19:21.052 kind of that surface level but very spiritual meaning 19:21.552 --> 19:25.175 behind it, and I think that opens up people to not be so 19:29.760 --> 19:33.086 intimidated. That's the word I'm looking for— intimidated by Scripture. 19:35.436 --> 19:37.386 So that's good. What about you, Allen? 19:39.585 --> 19:42.437 What do you want people to model? What are you modeling for people? 19:43.541 --> 19:47.217 No, I think you guys, uh, you guys have hit a 19:47.717 --> 19:50.780 lot of it. It's the same as Jesus, right? It's the prayer, um, 19:51.455 --> 19:53.927 um, knowing and understanding the scriptures. 19:54.825 --> 19:57.346 Um, we do a lot, we do a lot of Lectio around here. 19:58.116 --> 20:01.278 Um, and, um, 20:02.611 --> 20:06.094 I, I hope, you know, it's also like maybe the way I respond to 20:06.142 --> 20:09.674 life and react to life, right? That was what was on my 20:09.690 --> 20:13.053 mind. Yeah. And so, um, 20:13.344 --> 20:16.436 I'm always mindful of that, 20:17.051 --> 20:20.784 um, because I think the world 20:21.284 --> 20:24.172 has built a lot of anxious, worried people. And, and, 20:24.947 --> 20:28.448 um, and I like to be 20:28.658 --> 20:31.989 even keel. Um, yeah. Yeah. 20:32.053 --> 20:35.480 How do you do that? Huh? How do I do that? Yeah. Let me, 20:35.545 --> 20:38.784 let me follow you on that. Yeah. Um, not by myself. For sure. 20:39.410 --> 20:42.559 Um, and so I think, I think that's a— I think that's an important 20:43.059 --> 20:46.062 part. How do you, how do you handle what life throws at you? Yeah, 20:46.078 --> 20:48.536 one of my, one of my friends here in Dublin who's a pastor who I'm 20:48.584 --> 20:52.119 discipling, he preached a sermon this past Sunday. He said, uh, 20:52.601 --> 20:54.994 the way you navigate trouble puts the gospel on display. 20:56.119 --> 20:59.589 Um, I think that is what is basically 21:00.089 --> 21:03.542 is what you're saying, Alan. Um, and inviting people to see how 21:03.751 --> 21:06.981 I navigate life The good, the bad, and the ugly, 21:07.417 --> 21:10.561 how I respond to it. Yeah. So I heard a, um, I listened to a 21:11.061 --> 21:14.447 pastor, Joby Martin, 1122 in Jacksonville, 21:14.480 --> 21:17.769 Florida, and he, he's a disciple-making pastor, 21:18.563 --> 21:21.724 big large church. Um, have no reason to— anyways, blah. 21:22.372 --> 21:26.015 Um, um, but he, he just speaks 21:26.515 --> 21:29.658 the truth and it's really good. And he, um, was talking— he's— he was discipled 21:30.158 --> 21:34.314 by a guy named Coach Bull. And he would just grab Joby 21:34.411 --> 21:38.789 and take him to places. And he remembers going to a Walmart 21:39.289 --> 21:42.217 grocery store or something like that, bought something, got in the car, 21:43.964 --> 21:46.519 realized that the lady had given him like $5 too much. 21:47.748 --> 21:50.436 And he said he was about to pull out, he said he turned off the 21:50.936 --> 21:53.791 car, um, and he said, I gotta go, 21:54.391 --> 21:57.674 gotta go get the money back to her. And, um, And they walked 21:58.174 --> 22:01.673 in, they gave their money, and, you know, nobody would ever have known that. 22:01.769 --> 22:04.403 Nobody would— nope, she wouldn't have thought about it, you know. 22:05.126 --> 22:09.286 But he just said how that act of returning 22:09.318 --> 22:12.707 that money, I mean, he still 22:13.207 --> 22:16.722 remembers it to this, to this day. And, uh, I think it's things like that. 22:16.802 --> 22:19.501 It's like showing how we do life, 22:20.384 --> 22:23.852 um, and how you stay honest when you could tell a 22:24.352 --> 22:27.507 white lie or, yeah, um, how you react to 22:27.524 --> 22:30.794 hardship and struggles. It's just, uh, it's demonstration, 22:31.307 --> 22:33.904 right? Yeah, that's it. And I think, I think that's a lot of it. 22:33.952 --> 22:36.565 There's a lot that we could say, yeah, I want, I want to be able 22:36.677 --> 22:40.573 to demonstrate good prayer practices and good spiritual practices. 22:41.166 --> 22:45.030 There's also the sense that, that it's hard to pin down. It's like 22:45.815 --> 22:49.314 the way in which I move in belief in 22:49.429 --> 22:53.836 faith and mercy. How do 22:54.336 --> 22:57.860 I receive mercy? I'm demonstrating how others should 22:58.214 --> 23:01.726 have a surrendered heart and receive mercy as well as other things. 23:02.306 --> 23:06.202 And so it's a constant challenge for us. And the one thing that I'm 23:06.702 --> 23:09.561 going to be honest, probably was a little bit of a hangup for me that 23:10.061 --> 23:13.386 I'm just giving over and diving in anyway, is I'm 23:13.482 --> 23:16.611 going to demonstrate to the best of my ability, 23:17.289 --> 23:20.159 and I'm going to strive to keep not being better, but more holy. 23:21.432 --> 23:23.614 And it's not always going to be perfect demonstration. 23:25.440 --> 23:29.187 And that's just going to be okay. Otherwise, I'm going to 23:29.687 --> 23:33.112 do nothing. And here's the other fact is 23:33.225 --> 23:36.208 that as someone who wants to go out and make disciples, 23:37.578 --> 23:41.547 you're engaging in an act of service. So it's 23:42.047 --> 23:44.375 really a work of mercy if you want to use John Wesley's language, because you're 23:44.875 --> 23:48.070 caring for someone's soul. You may not be feeding the hungry, but you're caring for 23:48.570 --> 23:52.054 someone's soul, and that is itself a means of grace, which means you 23:52.247 --> 23:55.830 will receive power and growth and transformation by submitting 23:56.007 --> 24:00.055 and performing that service. So they 24:00.555 --> 24:04.843 say you learn more by teaching is a similar

kind of concept, but it's 24:04.923 --> 24:08.154 almost a part of it. You're not going to be able to learn and 24:08.654 --> 24:13.233 grow to demonstrate to the ability that your graceful 24:13.249 --> 24:15.772 potential will allow you until you get in the game. 24:17.076 --> 24:20.487 It's like, I hate to quote my own sermons, but there was a good idea. 24:21.117 --> 24:23.800 One, it's been 30-something weeks this year, but got one. 24:25.336 --> 24:29.063 Instead of thinking of being sent for 24:29.192 --> 24:32.052 any service, but say disciple-making, for example, 24:32.485 --> 24:34.927 instead of thinking of it in like the school model, 24:35.667 --> 24:38.889 Where that's what happens when you graduate after having taken all the tests and 24:39.389 --> 24:42.576 gotten appropriate marks on the content and all of that. It needs, you need to 24:43.076 --> 24:46.872 think of it as, go figure, the apprentice model where you are simply only 24:46.889 --> 24:50.480 going to be able to get so far until you then walk beside in 24:50.736 --> 24:54.856 action with somebody. And the intention 24:55.356 --> 24:58.976 of that model is you will only learn by doing, and you'll only 24:58.992 --> 25:02.761 learn by repetitive doing. And so if we consider disciple-making 25:02.794 --> 25:04.718 like that, or any kind of sent ministry, 25:06.433 --> 25:09.845 then you're gonna realize that, yeah, I'm growing in the midst and I 25:10.136 --> 25:13.293 probably can't grow. I will not be able to grow to a place 25:13.793 --> 25:17.642 where I can make disciples if I don't first 25:18.142 --> 25:21.187 try to start making disciples. Right, right. 25:21.897 --> 25:24.621 That's why most of the disciple-makers I know, I mean, 25:25.524 --> 25:28.973 they would tell you that those first 25:29.473 --> 25:31.951 groups or 2 or whatever, um, were nothing like what they're doing now. 25:33.054 --> 25:36.101 But you only learn by doing. That's right. So you got to do it. 25:36.150 --> 25:39.353 Yeah. So it's, you know, whether you're, you're learning 25:39.434 --> 25:42.766 from somebody who's discipling or if you're learning from— I mean, you just got to 25:43.266 --> 25:46.371 do it. Yeah, just got to do it. Uh, an interesting 25:46.661 --> 25:50.736 kind of question, I think, here, and I don't know if we want to dive 25:50.752 --> 25:54.231 deep into this or not, but this might be a question for our listeners to 25:54.295 --> 25:57.668 ask themselves. So one question you can ask yourself kind of in the vein 25:57.781 --> 26:00.302 of what we just discussed here is what in our own walk with Christ is 26:00.334 --> 26:03.739 worth imitating. I think that's, you know, what am I doing well, 26:04.028 --> 26:07.995 right? I think is a good thing to know. But maybe even 26:08.188 --> 26:10.822 a stronger question is, 26:11.239 --> 26:14.066 what in my walk with Christ do I not want to be imitated? 26:15.174 --> 26:19.462 And what do I need to make sure 26:19.832 --> 26:24.200 the people I'm discipling do not copy from me And 26:24.700 --> 26:28.472 how do I need to work on that in my 26:28.521 --> 26:32.275 own life? I don't know if y'all wanna share. I mean, if you had to 26:32.355 --> 26:35.930 share something in your life that you do not wanna be imitated. 26:36.526 --> 26:40.308 Well, I'm trying to— I'm recording this from the L block of the local prison. 26:41.247 --> 26:42.401 So let me tell you. 26:46.941 --> 26:50.650 Oh, I thought it was your office, but okay. Let's see. 26:51.150 --> 26:54.270 Yeah. You know, for me, I'll just be honest. I was gonna 26:54.770 --> 26:56.250 say, if you're gonna ask that question, you have to go first. I've gotta go 26:56.750 --> 26:59.010 with, yeah. And then we're gonna decide if we're gonna leave you hanging out there 26:59.510 --> 27:01.870 or if we're gonna participate with you. Well, you're going to. I'm the vulnerable one 27:02.370 --> 27:05.600 of the group on this anyway. So it would be, for me, it's my inconsistencies. 27:06.330 --> 27:09.710 Hey man, you stole the word outta my mouth. It's my— Took 27:10.210 --> 27:14.310 mine. Sorry, can't share. It's my inconsistencies. I know 27:14.810 --> 27:18.010 what prayer and the power of prayer, but I'm inconsistent. Reading scripture, 27:18.510 --> 27:19.330 I'm inconsistent. Like all of it. There are so many inconsistencies. 27:22.130 --> 27:25.690 In my life, that does not need to be imitated. 27:30.850 --> 27:33.005 I hear you. I don't agree, but I hear you. 27:35.380 --> 27:37.195 Okay. You don't agree that I'm inconsistent? 27:39.551 --> 27:41.970 I want you to hear me say that you have been witnessed and heard. 27:42.652 --> 27:45.884 Fair. Okay. No, I mean, those are, I mean, there's similar stuff. 27:46.371 --> 27:50.106 Alan, what about you? No, it was literally— if 27:50.331 --> 27:53.028 this was different, it was going to be inconsistent. Um, 27:53.927 --> 27:57.684 yeah, no, I just— I get distracted 27:58.985 --> 28:00.991 by the things that we think are important. 28:02.276 --> 28:05.101 And, uh, yeah, no, uh, so, um, 28:05.663 --> 28:09.195 and then I'm— it's so hard to think. Why is it so hard to 28:09.695 --> 28:12.968 think positively about yourself? You know, I heard this, uh, 28:13.129 --> 28:16.485 the other day. You know, listen to some podcast folks I 28:16.985 --> 28:22.106 respect, is that it is psychologically more natural 28:23.246 --> 28:26.523 to note what is wrong with yourself than to think about what is good of 28:27.023 --> 28:31.020 yourself, which is why it is probably so important for us 28:31.520 --> 28:35.051 to drive home identity in Christ and why that is such a huge part 28:35.551 --> 28:39.050 of the good news. It is hard to think of good stuff. Some people do 28:39.066 --> 28:42.368 better, and God bless them for it, Some people do it so 28:42.384 --> 28:46.496 well that you might have to question, but I 28:46.996 --> 28:49.387 would think, I would think there are

things like that for sure. And, um, 28:49.661 --> 28:54.114 you know, I get in, I get in the forget the, 28:54.195 --> 28:58.245 forget the, uh, faith and surrender piece of 28:58.294 --> 29:01.431 life and say, and kind of lose a little bit of the power and live 29:01.447 --> 29:04.715 the form for a little bit. Um, and just kind of get and have to 29:04.860 --> 29:08.120 remember that You know, my life 29:08.200 --> 29:12.467 is not set to be essentially a 29:12.531 --> 29:15.916 list of practices that I can 29:16.416 --> 29:19.782 perform well, or that done consistently enough will make me something. 29:20.232 --> 29:23.777 It's, those are all things for grace. And then I think there are also real, 29:23.841 --> 29:27.306 just deeper stuff, like in your, in the map of your life, wherever the trenches 29:27.806 --> 29:30.948 and wagon ruts are that you keep falling into that may have been written by 29:31.637 --> 29:35.279 people before you were even born. You know, families of origin stuff, all that 29:35.779 --> 29:39.610 stuff is there. And I wonder if you can flip it without trying to remove 29:39.659 --> 29:43.493 the vulnerability and remove the honesty to 29:43.993 --> 29:47.134 say, might it also be helpful for people to see, 29:48.578 --> 29:52.268 as you're talking about, Alan, just living your life, how do I know, 29:52.974 --> 29:56.230 recognize, repent when necessary, 29:57.401 --> 29:59.695 surrender even more and navigate that? 30:01.234 --> 30:04.599 Because the reality is, I think there are things that I used to struggle with 30:05.099 --> 30:07.788 that I don't now, and things that I struggle with that I didn't even think 30:08.288 --> 30:11.858 were a part of life. It's like, God, I thought God would hit bedrock, 30:11.890 --> 30:14.854 and when he was drilling down into my soul to give me some more spirit, 30:15.335 --> 30:17.739 he just took a, he just took a coffee break and came back and said, 30:17.755 --> 30:21.360 no, baby, I got more to go, you know? And so there's always more depth 30:22.530 --> 30:25.927 and, and ways to be free from the power of canceled sin. 30:26.777 --> 30:29.116 And so I think the navigating of that and the, 30:30.302 --> 30:34.788 it's good for people to demonstrate that that's what 30:35.288 --> 30:38.634 life often consists of. Um, so there's a 30:39.134 --> 30:42.047 lot of things like that. So not to say no, to take it and say, 30:42.400 --> 30:45.540 yeah, my weaknesses are actually my strength. Um, but I think 30:46.040 --> 30:49.194 there's something to that because life is not linear like that. Well, I would, 30:49.290 --> 30:52.190 I, you know, I think I try to be vulnerable. So I guess that's a, 30:52.495 --> 30:55.732 that's a Um, positive. 30:56.196 --> 31:00.010 I think vulnerability is important. It's another 31:00.106 --> 31:04.641 way of saying just trying to be honest with folks. Yeah. So I, 31:04.913 --> 31:08.182 I, I completely— and, and I'll just say this, uh, Jim, 31:08.278 --> 31:11.980 you, you said a word of conviction there for me because even 31:12.480 --> 31:15.794 in my vulnerabilities, I still deal with— and I think it's important 31:16.294 --> 31:19.031 to be vulnerable, to be open. I think this is how I'm growing in my 31:19.531 --> 31:23.109 faith. But I do think it is easier to speak 31:23.609 --> 31:25.534 about the bad than it is the good. 31:26.909 --> 31:30.632 I've got a friend, Matt, who's a pastor up in the Atlanta area who 31:31.184 --> 31:33.665 likes to remind us in a little cohort I'm in, 31:35.220 --> 31:39.414 the gospel doesn't start in Genesis 3. The gospel starts in 31:39.447 --> 31:42.641 the garden at our creation, 31:44.029 --> 31:47.926 created in the image of God, And God said 31:48.426 --> 31:52.720 it was very good. And so the 31:52.752 --> 31:55.988 story of redemption doesn't begin at our fall. The story of 31:56.488 --> 32:00.385 redemption actually really just begins when God breathed into 32:00.515 --> 32:04.700 us the breath of life in the garden. And as a reminder 32:04.716 --> 32:08.636 that my identity is really in 32:08.685 --> 32:11.568 him and there is goodness in that identity. 32:12.872 --> 32:16.798 In Christ. So it's 32:16.863 --> 32:21.473 a good reminder. Thank you. Yeah, I think we hit on some really nice 32:21.973 --> 32:25.523 spectrum of demonstrating, because you can talk those 32:25.620 --> 32:30.051 things, but then when somebody's living it with 32:30.551 --> 32:34.125 you, and when somebody is telling 32:34.237 --> 32:37.650 you, you know, no, this is the truth about you, 32:37.666 --> 32:42.083 and you can see them flesh to flesh, face to face, That's a strong part 32:42.583 --> 32:46.275 of how to demonstrate, but it's also how do you do the basic Christian things? 32:46.339 --> 32:49.872 How do you practice basic honesty in difficult times? How do 32:49.952 --> 32:53.245 you make time to go to church? You know, there's a lot 32:53.745 --> 32:56.890 of how to, what does your husbanding or wifing look like? 32:57.356 --> 33:00.151 What does your mothering or fathering look like? You know, 33:00.905 --> 33:04.294 so you've got this great gamut of things that we really bring our lives before 33:04.342 --> 33:07.378 people and we have to be willing. I think, Alan, you hit it on the 33:07.878 --> 33:11.504 head. We have to be willing to live our life with and before 33:11.569 --> 33:14.699 them. That's right. Uh, and that may be, you know, 33:14.715 --> 33:18.198 that, that may be a big challenge for some folks to, to step into. 33:18.247 --> 33:21.088 That might be the next big challenge that you have. I know it wasn't necessarily, 33:21.826 --> 33:25.374 um, the easiest thing for me being very comfortable in front 33:25.874 --> 33:29.596 of the crowd and then having to grow more comfortable being 33:29.709 --> 33:31.603 vulnerable in those open spaces where you're seen. 33:33.080 --> 33:36.242 But that's a great gamut of, of demonstration that

it's been brought 33:36.290 --> 33:39.048 up, I think. Yes. Well, 33:41.645 --> 33:45.236 what a great discussion. And as we get ready to close, 33:45.332 --> 33:48.730 let me just say, if you haven't purchased the book Master 33:49.230 --> 33:52.706 Plan of Evangelism, pick it up. Coleman's ideas here are just golden and 33:53.206 --> 33:55.912 they're so good. And it's a good reminder of what we are supposed to do 33:56.412 --> 34:00.064 as followers of Jesus, as disciple makers, and the calling that 34:00.240 --> 34:03.414 Christ has put on us. By the time this episode comes out, 34:03.863 --> 34:07.101 the Milwaukee Brewers will be world champions for the very 34:07.149 --> 34:09.905 first time. How about that? That, man. That is, uh, 34:10.274 --> 34:13.767 that is crazy. Uh, all for it because it's not the Dodgers. 34:14.183 --> 34:17.724 Amen, brother. Amen. I agree. Not the Dodgers, not the Mets, 34:17.949 --> 34:21.746 not the Phillies. I'm proud of them. I'm proud of them. Yes. And, 34:21.874 --> 34:26.617 um, the Georgia Bulldogs will have hopefully redeemed 34:27.117 --> 34:30.270 their loss to Auburn with a smackdown, um, 34:30.782 --> 34:33.362 against the Florida Gators this weekend. So, 34:34.211 --> 34:38.659 um, so anyway, this is not a sports podcast, but you know We, 34:39.159 --> 34:42.309 we, we like, we, we're talking about the things that matter. So we, yeah. 34:42.679 --> 34:45.819 Yeah. Yeah. Look, we gotta live our life before people. It's what we 34:46.319 --> 34:48.919 just talked about. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. As, as bonus content. 34:49.419 --> 34:52.579 Um, yeah, that's true. The day after that Georgia-Auburn game, I was getting ready the 34:53.079 --> 34:56.619 next morning. It was a Sunday. And, uh, you know, I don't always 34:57.119 --> 34:59.659 pick my ties. I have ties that match everything, so I just usually grab one 35:00.159 --> 35:02.299 on the way out the door on Sunday and put it on. I was halfway 35:02.799 --> 35:04.499 out the door and I realized that it was a blue and orange tie. 35:05.016 --> 35:08.126 And I looked down and I said, there's really no problem with this, but I 35:08.302 --> 35:11.877 just cannot bring myself to wear this hat. And so I 35:11.909 --> 35:15.596 was a tiny bit late to our morning consecration prayer because 35:16.096 --> 35:18.049 I had to go change my hat. Here's the beauty. I think the Lord has, 35:18.578 --> 35:22.425 or he's set these things out in a certain order. Yeah. That there 35:22.925 --> 35:25.230 is a football game on Saturday. 35:26.657 --> 35:29.879 Yeah. And win or lose, there's a Sunday coming. 35:29.975 --> 35:33.710 So that's good. There's always a reorder of things 35:34.210 --> 35:36.564 that happens the day after. That's right. We can really see all these guys coming. 35:37.064 --> 35:40.233 I mean, we can, right? We really can. Victory always comes. I love 35:40.733 --> 35:43.886 it. All right, uh, ladies and gentlemen, Podicumans, we're so 35:43.902 --> 35:47.556 grateful for you and for your community. Share this podcast out 35:47.588 --> 35:50.873 with all your friends, um, and even those who you do 35:51.373 --> 35:54.654 not count as your friends. Say, hey, listen, I think you need— I think you 35:55.154 --> 35:57.554 need this in your life, and share it with them. Anyway, let me know how 35:57.602 --> 36:00.807 that goes. Yeah, I don't know how that will— I don't know. It's a little 36:01.307 --> 36:04.740 insight. Uh, but, uh, anyway, um, until next time. 36:05.208 --> 36:08.114 Um, we love you and we're grateful for you, and we will talk to you 36:08.614 --> 36:09.744 later on the Padaquesis Podcast.