Never Enough: 7 Ways to Protect Yourself (and Your Kids) From Toxic Pressure의 전체 녹취록

but he does 37 00:02:00.620 --> 00:02:04.040 have the grades and he's right in the range of 38 00:02:04.540 --> 00:02:06.840 the kind of student that they accept. But these days, 39 00:02:06.939 --> 00:02:09.659 everything is so competitive that you just never know. And 40 00:02:09.699 --> 00:02:11.719 she said, well, we thought that too about our son. 41 00:02:12.620 --> 00:02:16.189 He applied ED and he ended up not getting in. 42 00:02:17.069 --> 00:02:19.650 They took two other people from the school, but they 43 00:02:19.689 --> 00:02:27.020 didn't take him. There was something about the way that 44 00:02:28.340 --> 00:02:35.120 her tone of voice was that my heart went, and 45 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:38.689 I don't know what happened. I became that freak. I 46 00:02:38.729 --> 00:02:41.490 became that psycho parent. There was something in me that 47 00:02:41.530 --> 00:02:43.710 was like, what do you mean? What do you mean? 48 00:02:44.349 --> 00:02:46.129 You mean he's not going to get in? You mean 49 00:02:46.169 --> 00:02:48.569 he's within range and they're going to take somebody else? 50 00:02:48.629 --> 00:02:50.189 And I became that parent that all of a sudden 51 00:02:50.219 --> 00:02:54.240 started to own their kids' choices and success and their outcomes. 52 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:57.750 And I came racing home and I was like, Oak, Oak, 53 00:02:58.469 --> 00:03:00.689 have you written your college essay? How is the process going? 54 00:03:00.710 --> 00:03:02.349 Can I take a read of it? Can I see it? 55 00:03:02.349 --> 00:03:07.030 And he's like, yes, you can read it. And he 56 00:03:07.050 --> 00:03:09.830 sent it to me. First draft, I'll be honest, not 57 00:03:09.870 --> 00:03:12.789 that great. It made my heart go even more. And 58 00:03:12.810 --> 00:03:16.659 then I go to say to him, is this done? 59 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:18.340 I mean, this is not what you're submitting. I mean, 60 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:20.340 this doesn't even sound like you. And he's like, mom, 61 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:23.099 could you back off? I'm working with it at the 62 00:03:23.139 --> 00:03:25.979 counselors at school. This is the first draft. Can you 63 00:03:26.020 --> 00:03:28.419 get off my back? It's all we talk about at school. 64 00:03:31.009 --> 00:03:35.169 So whether you're in the college application process or not, 65 00:03:35.770 --> 00:03:39.610 you have experienced it yourself or with somebody that you love. 66 00:03:40.289 --> 00:03:44.099 And you know there is something psycho weird about how 67 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.960 competitive things have gotten. I mean, I always joke that 68 00:03:49.020 --> 00:03:53.580 When I applied to college back in 1985, if I 69 00:03:53.740 --> 00:03:56.180 were applying today, I would never get in because of 70 00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:00.120 how crazy competitive things have gotten. And I have prided 71 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:03.560 myself on not getting sucked into this. I have meant 72 00:04:03.629 --> 00:04:05.370 it when I have told you that I do not 73 00:04:05.430 --> 00:04:08.870 put the bumper stickers on my cars, that their achievements 74 00:04:09.069 --> 00:04:12.009 are not a reflection of my parenting. that my kids 75 00:04:12.050 --> 00:04:14.689 need to own the process, they will end up where 76 00:04:14.710 --> 00:04:17.000 they're meant to end up, that they will get the 77 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:20.120 lessons they need, they will figure it out. I believe that. 78 00:04:20.540 --> 00:04:24.540 But there was something about somebody going, oh, well, that 79 00:04:24.579 --> 00:04:28.449 didn't happen to ours. That made me go, and I 80 00:04:28.490 --> 00:04:33.350 went crazy for about 48 hours. Well, thankfully, I bumped 81 00:04:33.389 --> 00:04:36.360 into another friend of mine, Shout out to Paige. And 82 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:39.819 Paige and I were talking and she was saying that 83 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:43.519 she was reading this incredible book. And I was like, really? 84 00:04:44.100 --> 00:04:45.519 What is the name of the book? And she's like, yeah, 85 00:04:45.540 --> 00:04:48.439 it's so incredible. It's called Never Enough. And you got 86 00:04:48.459 --> 00:04:50.040 to get this woman on your podcast. And I'm like, 87 00:04:50.100 --> 00:04:52.920 what's it about? And she said the entire book is 88 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:57.490 about something called grind culture and the way that we 89 00:04:57.689 --> 00:05:03.750 are prioritizing what this author calls toxic achievement how parents 90 00:05:03.769 --> 00:05:06.329 have gotten super sucked into it, how we've gotten super 91 00:05:06.370 --> 00:05:09.550 sucked into it. I said, Paige, say no more. You 92 00:05:09.610 --> 00:05:11.750 are like an angel from the heavens who is hitting 93 00:05:11.769 --> 00:05:14.660 me with a sledgehammer saying, Mel Robbins, you got to 94 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:17.839 talk about this pressure we are all feeling. And so 95 00:05:17.860 --> 00:05:20.480 you know what I'm going to do? I reached right 96 00:05:20.540 --> 00:05:23.939 out to Jenny Wallace. That's right. She has written a 97 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:28.829 book called Never Enough. Jenny Wallace, an award-winning Harvard-educated journalist 98 00:05:28.889 --> 00:05:32.170 from 60 Minutes. She is also a journalism fellow at 99 00:05:32.189 --> 00:05:34.910 the Center for Parent and Teen Communications at the Children's 100 00:05:34.949 --> 00:05:38.430 Hospital of Philadelphia. And I got a copy of this book, 101 00:05:38.470 --> 00:05:40.689 Never Enough. I dug into it. And I just want 102 00:05:40.709 --> 00:05:43.329 you to get ready because we're not only going to 103 00:05:43.389 --> 00:05:47.060 talk about how you break free from the grind culture. 104 00:05:47.949 --> 00:05:50.269 and how you can get your life and your peace 105 00:05:50.310 --> 00:05:54.259 of mind and your control back. We're going to talk 106 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:57.699 about

a deeper topic because she says that the way 107 00:05:57.740 --> 00:06:00.639 that you break free from grind culture and toxic achievement 108 00:06:00.740 --> 00:06:03.379 is to actually focus on something else, the thing that 109 00:06:03.430 --> 00:06:05.490 you and I are both seeking. And we're going to 110 00:06:05.509 --> 00:06:10.050 explain what that is in this conversation. So please help 111 00:06:10.089 --> 00:06:14.730 me welcome Jenny Wallace to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Thank 112 00:06:14.750 --> 00:06:17.189 you so much for having me. Jenny, thanks so much 113 00:06:17.209 --> 00:06:20.279 for jumping on so quickly with me. And I just 114 00:06:20.339 --> 00:06:23.860 really want to jump into it. You have this term 115 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:27.319 that you call the grind culture. And I think even 116 00:06:27.339 --> 00:06:29.339 though we don't know what the definition is, we all 117 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:31.720 feel that we're in the thick of it. It's this 118 00:06:31.819 --> 00:06:35.930 stress and this pressure to do more all the time. 119 00:06:36.250 --> 00:06:38.790 And that when you're not doing more, it's never enough. 120 00:06:38.829 --> 00:06:40.990 So no matter how successful you are, it's never enough. 121 00:06:41.209 --> 00:06:43.129 No matter what school you get into, it's never enough. 122 00:06:43.250 --> 00:06:45.310 And so I want to start off with the terms 123 00:06:45.350 --> 00:06:49.209 that you use in your research. What is the grind culture? 124 00:06:49.949 --> 00:06:55.279 Brine culture to me is a set of messages that 125 00:06:55.319 --> 00:07:00.040 tell us we are only as good as our productivity, 126 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:03.189 our performance, what we make, the grades we get, the 127 00:07:03.209 --> 00:07:06.149 college we get into. So it is your worth is 128 00:07:06.209 --> 00:07:08.170 contingent upon your performance. 129 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:11.100 That makes a lot of sense. And I think we 130 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:13.870 all understand what that is because we all feel this 131 00:07:14.449 --> 00:07:17.670 like vice on our heads right now. But you also 132 00:07:17.769 --> 00:07:21.589 use this term in your research, toxic achievement. What exactly 133 00:07:21.810 --> 00:07:25.920 is toxic achievement? Toxic achievement is. 134 00:07:27.490 --> 00:07:29.670 Running for the next goal because you feel like you 135 00:07:29.709 --> 00:07:32.189 are not worthy until you hit that next goal. 136 00:07:32.209 --> 00:07:33.529 You got to get the good grades. You got to 137 00:07:33.569 --> 00:07:35.110 be on the winning sports team. You got to make 138 00:07:35.149 --> 00:07:37.500 the team. You got to be at the best school. 139 00:07:37.540 --> 00:07:39.680 You got to be in the AP classes. You got 140 00:07:39.699 --> 00:07:43.079 to do great on the SATs. This constant, I almost 141 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:47.250 said it, grind culture that gets created by the parent's 142 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:52.439 putting the emphasis on the achievement. I worry about our 143 00:07:52.459 --> 00:07:55.959 kids because I don't feel like I felt that pressure 144 00:07:56.540 --> 00:07:58.720 when I was their age. And I know a lot 145 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:01.220 of you are worried about either your kids or your 146 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.120 nieces and nephews or your grandchildren, or you've felt this pressure. 147 00:08:05.740 --> 00:08:08.160 And even though you're through college, you feel this pressure 148 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:10.290 to climb the ladder. You feel this pressure compared to 149 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:12.509 what your friends are doing. You feel this pressure because 150 00:08:12.529 --> 00:08:14.790 you're not making the money your friends in finance are making. 151 00:08:15.350 --> 00:08:18.639 So if that's toxic achievement, What is healthy achievement? 152 00:08:19.819 --> 00:08:24.649 Healthy achievement is recognizing your strengths, recognizing that you need 153 00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:28.750 other people to reach for these high goals. And if 154 00:08:28.810 --> 00:08:31.189 you miss it, if you miss a goal to not 155 00:08:31.250 --> 00:08:33.960 feel as though it's an indictment against your worth. 156 00:08:34.409 --> 00:08:37.039 That makes a lot of sense. And so here's how 157 00:08:37.100 --> 00:08:40.659 I want to handle this, because your work is primarily focused, Jenny, 158 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:46.059 on the toxic achievement and grind culture aimed at children 159 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:49.370 and and teenagers and young adults and how it's impacting 160 00:08:49.389 --> 00:08:51.889 their mental health and how it's backfiring and not working, 161 00:08:51.909 --> 00:08:54.370 but it relates to all of us. And so here's 162 00:08:54.389 --> 00:08:56.210 what we're going to do in this conversation. Number one, 163 00:08:56.830 --> 00:08:59.509 I want you to unpack your research for us, okay? 164 00:09:00.090 --> 00:09:02.620 And then what I want to do is I want 165 00:09:02.700 --> 00:09:05.620 to go to the deeper conversation that relates to all 166 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:09.419 of us, which is the root cause of toxic achievement. 167 00:09:10.129 --> 00:09:13.009 We can all feel it. It's never enough. But how 168 00:09:13.029 --> 00:09:14.789 the hell did we get here? Yeah. 169 00:09:14.809 --> 00:09:17.720 So what's happening today is that parents are becoming, in 170 00:09:17.740 --> 00:09:21.620 the words of researchers, social conduits. They are trying to 171 00:09:21.700 --> 00:09:26.399 prepare their kids for this uncertain competitive future. And it 172 00:09:26.460 --> 00:09:29.860 comes out in our parenting. We tend to become more controlling. 173 00:09:30.379 --> 00:09:33.889 We tend to become more perfectionistic. and what we're demanding 174 00:09:33.909 --> 00:09:36.649 of our kids and not to blame parents. 175 00:09:36.809 --> 00:09:39.240 But why not? Hold on a second. I blame myself 176

00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:41.929 and I don't have a problem with it. By the way, 177 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:43.899 this is so relevant to me as a boss too. 178 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:47.980 To take responsibility for how you take the pressure that 179 00:09:48.019 --> 00:09:51.470 you feel and pass it on to somebody else, you 180 00:09:51.500 --> 00:09:54.850 have a huge impact in other people's lives based on 181 00:09:54.889 --> 00:09:58.090 how you process and handle the pressure that you feel. 182 00:09:58.990 --> 00:10:01.379 And you just jam that down your kids or your 183 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:05.220 colleagues or your friends' throats because you can't tolerate it yourself. 184 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:07.500 And so I think there is a massive role that 185 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:09.460 parents play that they need to wake up and start 186 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.100 taking responsibility for. I don't disagree with you. 187 00:10:13.419 --> 00:10:16.259 Blame is the word that I'm tired of. I guess 188 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:19.279 what I'm trying to tell parents is to zoom out 189 00:10:20.019 --> 00:10:24.940 and put into context the anxieties and the fears that 190 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:26.080 they are feeling. 191 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:29.480 So that they can see them. It's not personal. Every 192 00:10:29.539 --> 00:10:30.399 parent is feeling this. 193 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:33.710 I worked with a Harvard researcher to conduct a first 194 00:10:33.730 --> 00:10:36.529 of its kind parenting survey. And we were hoping to 195 00:10:36.549 --> 00:10:38.789 get a sample size of a thousand parents. And within 196 00:10:38.809 --> 00:10:40.970 a few days, 6,500 parents. 197 00:10:41.090 --> 00:10:41.850 Had filled it out. 198 00:10:42.029 --> 00:10:46.139 And there were these universal themes that parents today feel 199 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:50.600 responsible for for my children's achievement and success. 200 00:10:51.659 --> 00:10:52.659 Does that concern you? 201 00:10:53.899 --> 00:10:57.490 It concerns me when our parenting behaviors are not conducive 202 00:10:57.529 --> 00:11:00.070 to raising healthy achievers. When I was growing up in 203 00:11:00.110 --> 00:11:02.490 the 70s and 80s, like my parents, yes, they would 204 00:11:02.529 --> 00:11:04.549 buy me a tennis racket or a pair of running shoes, 205 00:11:04.990 --> 00:11:06.730 but they didn't feel like they had to push me 206 00:11:06.789 --> 00:11:09.940 to the front of the pack. And I think today parents, 207 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.909 not only do they feel that responsibility, they think other 208 00:11:12.950 --> 00:11:14.909 people are judging them on that as well. 209 00:11:15.490 --> 00:11:17.230 I asked how many. 210 00:11:17.070 --> 00:11:20.759 Agreed with others think that my children's academic success is 211 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:26.600 a reflection of my parenting. 83% of parents agreed with 212 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:31.049 that statement. So it's not only

that we feel responsible 213 00:11:31.169 --> 00:11:33.450 for making sure they're successful in the future, but other 214 00:11:33.490 --> 00:11:34.570 people are judging us. 215 00:11:35.250 --> 00:11:37.629 I agree with you. And in fact, this reminds me 216 00:11:37.649 --> 00:11:40.269 that this is the first time in U.S. history anyway, 217 00:11:40.950 --> 00:11:44.129 that kids are worse off than their parents. Worse health outcomes, 218 00:11:44.269 --> 00:11:48.750 life expectancy, higher anxiety rates, higher depression rates, worried about 219 00:11:48.769 --> 00:11:52.649 the environment, the changing job market. It's no wonder that 220 00:11:53.340 --> 00:11:56.139 Everybody is stressed out. Yes. 221 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.700 I asked parents. So we're talking about the stress that 222 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.779 they're feeling in their homes, right? I said, how many 223 00:12:01.820 --> 00:12:03.779 of you agree or disagree with the statement on a 224 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:06.879 scale from one to four? I wish today's childhood was 225 00:12:06.950 --> 00:12:11.610 less stressful for my kids. 87% of parents agreed with 226 00:12:11.649 --> 00:12:12.289 that statement. 227 00:12:13.009 --> 00:12:15.049 I want to know who are the 13 that didn't. 228 00:12:15.970 --> 00:12:20.379 My God. Maybe they read the question wrong. 229 00:12:21.909 --> 00:12:24.340 At the end of the survey, I asked parents if 230 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.019 they would be willing to be interviewed and hundreds of 231 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.610 parents reached out. And so I traveled the country listening 232 00:12:30.649 --> 00:12:34.049 to these stories over and over again. It was the 233 00:12:34.169 --> 00:12:40.139 same story. The sleepless nights by their kids in order 234 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:43.299 to cram in all the AP classes, the weekend spent 235 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:48.320 at soccer tournaments, missing family gatherings, missing birthday parties. The 236 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:51.139 mother in Alaska told me her kids never understood what 237 00:12:51.179 --> 00:12:53.710 a Thanksgiving meal really was because they were always on 238 00:12:53.750 --> 00:12:58.169 the road going to soccer tournaments on Thanksgiving. So... I 239 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:01.149 guess what surprised me the most was how universal this 240 00:13:01.190 --> 00:13:04.629 feeling was and how honest parents were about it. 241 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:11.059 That's exactly what we're talking about. That there's the ability 242 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:14.179 to strive and to want to achieve something and to 243 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.460 do it in a very healthy way rather than amping 244 00:13:17.500 --> 00:13:19.620 up the pressure and the stress that we feel. 245 00:13:19.750 --> 00:13:19.870 Yeah. 246 00:13:20.470 --> 00:13:22.669 And I can't wait to hear what we need to 247 00:13:22.730 --> 00:13:25.669 focus on in order to get back to the kind 248 00:13:25.710

--> 00:13:28.990 of life where you are focused on healthy achievement instead 249 00:13:29.029 --> 00:13:32.450 of being driven to the race to nowhere based on 250 00:13:32.490 --> 00:13:35.090 this toxic grind culture and this pressure that we feel. 251 00:13:36.090 --> 00:13:36.870 So how do we get there? 252 00:13:37.490 --> 00:13:37.629 Yeah. 253 00:13:38.409 --> 00:13:39.330 At the root of all. 254 00:13:39.230 --> 00:13:44.200 This suffering is an unmet need to feel like we 255 00:13:44.259 --> 00:13:47.080 matter for who we are at our core. 256 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:51.059 Seriously? Yeah. I mean, I thought we were talking about achievement. 257 00:13:51.100 --> 00:13:52.779 Now you're talking about mattering. I mean, that's kind of 258 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:55.919 a squishy topic. You're going to have to break this 259 00:13:55.960 --> 00:14:00.570 down for me and for the person listening, because you're 260 00:14:00.610 --> 00:14:07.210 talking about doing, doing, doing as the problem, but somehow being, being, 261 00:14:07.250 --> 00:14:10.669 being and feeling like you matter. How are we going 262 00:14:10.690 --> 00:14:11.549 to get there? Yeah. 263 00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:14.500 As part of my research, I went in search of 264 00:14:14.539 --> 00:14:18.019 the healthiest drivers. I wanted to know what, if anything, 265 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.169 they had in common. What was home life like for them? 266 00:14:21.289 --> 00:14:23.730 What was their relationship like with their peers? 267 00:14:23.929 --> 00:14:24.889 What was school like? 268 00:14:25.690 --> 00:14:28.730 And I found about 15 or so common threads that 269 00:14:28.789 --> 00:14:31.750 these healthy achievers had in common. And as I was 270 00:14:31.850 --> 00:14:35.250 looking for a framework to present my findings, I came 271 00:14:35.330 --> 00:14:40.299 across the psychological construct of mattering. It's been around since 272 00:14:40.340 --> 00:14:45.279 the 1980s. It was first conceptualized by Morris Rosenberg, who 273 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:48.139 brought us the idea of self-esteem and And what he 274 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:50.769 found in the 80s was that students who felt a 275 00:14:50.850 --> 00:14:54.789 healthy level of self-esteem felt like they mattered, that they 276 00:14:54.830 --> 00:14:58.789 were important to their parents and known for who they 277 00:14:58.870 --> 00:15:03.059 were at their core, that their value wasn't contingent on 278 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.799 their performance or what they looked like or what team 279 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.980 they made. And they were also depended on to add 280 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:13.549 meaningful value back to their families, to their friends, to 281 00:15:13.570 --> 00:15:16.710 their communities. They experienced this high level of mattering because 282 00:15:16.730 --> 00:15:19.730 they had social proof. They believed at their core that 283 00:15:19.750 --> 00:15:22.100 they were valued.

And then they saw it in action 284 00:15:22.539 --> 00:15:24.799 with how they were adding value to those around them. 285 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:28.799 So when they stumbled, when they had a setback, they 286 00:15:28.860 --> 00:15:31.220 didn't feel like it was an indictment of their worth. 287 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.370 They were able to bounce back. Oh, wow. 288 00:15:34.889 --> 00:15:35.090 Yeah. 289 00:15:35.110 --> 00:15:35.190 Yeah. 290 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:40.320 Mattering is a core need that we all have to 291 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:44.080 feel important, significant, and like we make an impact on 292 00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:48.279 the world. To matter, we need to feel valued for 293 00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:52.139 who we are at our core, by our families, by 294 00:15:52.220 --> 00:15:57.279 our colleagues, by our friends, and our larger community. And importantly, 295 00:15:57.370 --> 00:16:00.049 we need to be depended on. We need to be 296 00:16:00.110 --> 00:16:04.639 relied on to add value back to our families, to 297 00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:08.210 our colleagues or friends, and to our larger communities. When 298 00:16:08.250 --> 00:16:12.769 we experience that feeling valued and adding value, that's when 299 00:16:12.789 --> 00:16:15.909 we have a high level of mattering. And mattering acts 300 00:16:15.980 --> 00:16:20.639 like a protective shield against anxiety, depression. It's not that 301 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:24.139 the students that I met who experienced this high level 302 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:26.730 of mattering, who were striving in healthy ways. It didn't 303 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.970 mean they didn't have failures or setbacks, but what mattering 304 00:16:29.990 --> 00:16:32.590 did is it acted like a buoy. It helped to 305 00:16:32.669 --> 00:16:34.990 lift them up. When they had a setback, when they 306 00:16:35.029 --> 00:16:38.269 felt like they were failing, it wasn't an indictment of 307 00:16:38.309 --> 00:16:41.960 their worth. The kids who seemed to be suffering the 308 00:16:42.019 --> 00:16:45.279 most were kids who felt like they only mattered when, 309 00:16:45.299 --> 00:16:49.980 that their mattering was contingent, their value was contingent. The 310 00:16:50.059 --> 00:16:52.730 other group that seemed to be suffering the most were 311 00:16:52.809 --> 00:16:57.149 kids who felt like they were valued at home, but 312 00:16:57.230 --> 00:17:00.370 no one ever depended or relied on them. So what 313 00:17:00.429 --> 00:17:04.369 happens is they lacked social proof that they mattered. 314 00:17:06.690 --> 00:17:11.079 This is the exact same thing that all the research 315 00:17:11.299 --> 00:17:16.039 has proven to be true about people who succeed at 316 00:17:16.099 --> 00:17:21.220 work and people who don't. that there is this underlying 317 00:17:21.339 --> 00:17:24.759 theme of feeling like you matter to the people that 318 00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:28.000 you work with, to the person that is your manager, 319 00:17:28.299 --> 00:17:31.779 and that your contributions are important. And so it makes 320 00:17:31.819 --> 00:17:34.119 sense to me that this would be the exact same 321 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:39.700 construct that would either make a student feel invisible or 322 00:17:39.769 --> 00:17:43.430 that they mattered, or make a student feel like I 323 00:17:43.509 --> 00:17:46.130 only get the attention I need at home when my 324 00:17:46.190 --> 00:17:48.470 grades are amazing and my parents have something to brag 325 00:17:48.509 --> 00:17:51.349 about I wanted to pull this apart just a little 326 00:17:51.369 --> 00:17:56.109 bit more because I immediately latched on to you saying, 327 00:17:57.029 --> 00:18:01.950 if you don't have social proof, that can plummet your self-esteem. 328 00:18:02.029 --> 00:18:04.670 What do you mean by social proof? 329 00:18:06.150 --> 00:18:10.710 Social proof tells a student or an adult that you 330 00:18:11.369 --> 00:18:14.329 are important in this world. You make a positive impact 331 00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:18.450 on the world around you. The idea of mattering, whether 332 00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:22.650 it's for students or for people at work or for 333 00:18:22.710 --> 00:18:28.150 people who are retired, mattering matters throughout life. Young, old, rich, poor, 334 00:18:28.509 --> 00:18:31.839 there is what researchers call an instinct to matter. So 335 00:18:31.910 --> 00:18:36.099 beyond food and shelter, it is the instinct to matter 336 00:18:36.500 --> 00:18:40.319 that researchers say drive all of human behavior for better 337 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:43.599 or for worse. When we feel like we matter, we 338 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:46.640 show up in the world in positive ways. We achieve 339 00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:49.660 in healthy ways. We want to give back to society. 340 00:18:49.700 --> 00:18:51.380 We want to be a good neighbor. We want to 341 00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:53.609 be a great colleague. We want to lift people up 342 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:58.150 because we have this deep core of mattering. When we 343 00:18:58.210 --> 00:19:00.650 feel like we don't matter, when we are made to 344 00:19:00.670 --> 00:19:07.799 feel marginalized, we can either fall inward or get depressed, anxious, 345 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:13.039 lean on substances to feed our loneliness, or we can 346 00:19:13.180 --> 00:19:16.890 act out. So a school shooter is among the most 347 00:19:16.950 --> 00:19:17.890 tragic examples. 348 00:19:18.349 --> 00:19:19.309 You don't think I matter? 349 00:19:19.450 --> 00:19:22.529 I'll show you I matter. This is a universal need 350 00:19:22.569 --> 00:19:24.019 that we all have. And we are living in a 351 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:28.220 society where it is going unmet for too many people. 352 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:32.039 And that to me is the driving force behind the 353 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:36.059 loneliness we're feeling, the anxiety that we think we're not

worthy, 354 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:40.529 the depression when we feel invisible, when no one cares 355 00:19:40.609 --> 00:19:42.589 about us or when we think no one cares about us. 356 00:19:43.309 --> 00:19:47.759 So it sounds like we all have this. 357 00:19:49.049 --> 00:19:49.549 Innate. 358 00:19:50.339 --> 00:19:54.980 important, critical need to feel as though we matter in 359 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.460 the world at large or to other people that we 360 00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:00.660 have something to contribute, that that is the core issue 361 00:20:00.700 --> 00:20:04.279 that most of us are struggling with. And the symptoms 362 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:07.910 that it's not being met are things like loneliness, despair, 363 00:20:08.730 --> 00:20:13.609 feeling angry, anxiety, all of those things rise to the 364 00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:18.700 surface when this core need isn't met. I really want 365 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.740 to like dig deeper and deeper into this because I 366 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:26.460 think when, you know, our audience, which is now in 367 00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:31.220 194 countries, when people write in, I have no friends, 368 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:33.720 I don't know what to do with my life. I 369 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.140 believe this is an issue that this person has no 370 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:42.240 social proof that they matter. Can you give us examples 371 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:45.500 of what is social proof that you matter? Yeah. 372 00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:48.549 In a corporate event, a 30-year-old raised his hand and 373 00:20:48.589 --> 00:20:51.529 he said, sometimes I feel like I don't matter. Is 374 00:20:51.569 --> 00:20:54.369 there a mantra I could say to myself to help 375 00:20:54.390 --> 00:20:56.430 me put myself in that mattering mindset? 376 00:20:56.900 --> 00:20:58.720 And I said, no. I said, here's what you need 377 00:20:58.759 --> 00:20:58.880 to do. 378 00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:02.170 You need to go down to your cafeteria and you 379 00:21:02.210 --> 00:21:05.519 need to smile at the cafeteria lady who always smiles 380 00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:07.519 at you and asks you how your day is going. 381 00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:10.220 And you need to say to her, these days have 382 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.720 been a little rough for me, but knowing that you're 383 00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:15.359 going to be there greeting me with this delicious meal, 384 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:18.740 making me smile, you brighten my day every day. 385 00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:20.069 I just want you to know that. 386 00:21:21.109 --> 00:21:26.329 Unlocking the mattering in other people feeds our own mattering. 387 00:21:27.690 --> 00:21:32.150 So instead of a mantra, go out and be kind 388 00:21:32.509 --> 00:21:35.900 and caring to the person at the drugstore who's ringing up, 389 00:21:36.220 --> 00:21:39.680 you know, who's probably being attacked day in and day 390 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:45.240 out for not moving fast enough. people, thanking a friend 391 00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:48.319 who's been there for you. Just a quick text. It's 392 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.089 it mattering is felt, you know, in big moments, right? 393 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:55.670 When we are celebrating a milestone birthday and somebody gives 394 00:21:55.710 --> 00:21:57.769 a toast to us and tells us why we matter 395 00:21:57.789 --> 00:22:01.410 to them. But it's also found in little everyday moments too. 396 00:22:01.589 --> 00:22:04.150 I just remember distinctly, I was at an office party 397 00:22:04.170 --> 00:22:07.619 with my husband and a guy was talking to me, 398 00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:14.500 but on his phone and texting. I really don't matter 399 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:16.839 to this guy. He wasn't being rude to me. He 400 00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:18.960 was just showing me, yeah, you don't matter as much 401 00:22:19.019 --> 00:22:21.769 as this phone. So when our kids come up to 402 00:22:21.809 --> 00:22:23.730 talk to us and we're scrolling or we're doing a 403 00:22:23.769 --> 00:22:28.349 work email, they can be getting those small signals of 404 00:22:28.410 --> 00:22:31.470 not mattering like I got at that office party. 405 00:22:31.490 --> 00:22:35.509 Wow. Wow. That is fascinating. And I want to take 406 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:37.400 a quick pause. We need to hear a word from 407 00:22:37.420 --> 00:22:40.579 our sponsors who allow us to bring this amazing content 408 00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:42.809 to you for free. So let's take a listen because 409 00:22:42.869 --> 00:22:45.549 they matter. And we'll be right back with more from 410 00:22:45.589 --> 00:22:46.839 Jenny Wallace. Stay with us. 411 00:22:50.740 --> 00:22:53.660 The Chemist Warehouse Fall Frenzy Mega Sale is now live. 412 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.220 Find up to half price off RRP on big brands 413 00:22:56.420 --> 00:23:00.170 like Bio Oil, Lusotanning and SVR. 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trust. From grass-based diets to 426 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.180 complete traceability. M & S select farmers in Cork rear 427 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:50.319 their cattle with real respect for the land and the 428 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:53.900 animals It's that care, right from the start, that delivers 429 00:23:53.980 --> 00:23:54.980 depth of flavour. 430 00:23:54.740 --> 00:23:55.200 On the plate. 431 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:59.019 This is Irish beef, done properly. This is not just food, 432 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:00.369 this is M & S food. 433 00:24:05.910 --> 00:24:08.880 Welcome back. I'm here with Jenny Wallace, who's just finished 434 00:24:09.019 --> 00:24:12.759 a four-year-long research project. She's written a book, Never Enough, 435 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.859 and she's helping you and me break this cycle that 436 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.079 we're trapped in of toxic achievement and focus on what 437 00:24:20.140 --> 00:24:25.789 actually matters in life. So Jenny, you recommend when kids 438 00:24:25.849 --> 00:24:29.509 come home from school that there's one question that you 439 00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:33.450 ask that shows that you matter. What is that question? 440 00:24:34.910 --> 00:24:38.170 I lead with lunch. What does that mean? So what 441 00:24:38.210 --> 00:24:39.289 I used to do. 442 00:24:39.250 --> 00:24:41.650 Before researching this book is my kids would come home 443 00:24:41.690 --> 00:24:45.099 and I'd be thinking, how'd you do on the Spanish quiz? 444 00:24:45.170 --> 00:24:46.759 How'd it go on your report today? 445 00:24:47.660 --> 00:24:50.500 And what I realized in doing the research was that 446 00:24:50.539 --> 00:24:52.619 the signal I was sending my kids, one was that 447 00:24:52.660 --> 00:24:55.940 achievement mattered. Two, this is what I'd been thinking about 448 00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:59.160 all day while they were in school. And so instead now, 449 00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:01.589 when they walk in the door, I lead with lunch. 450 00:25:01.750 --> 00:25:04.019 I ask them, what'd you have for lunch today? And 451 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:08.259 I got that idea because my grandmother, in every conversation 452 00:25:08.299 --> 00:25:10.519 I would have with her, she's since passed away, it 453 00:25:10.539 --> 00:25:13.220 would always be, what did you have for lunch? It was, 454 00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:17.359 I care about you. I care about your nourishment. I 455 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:19.099 care about things that have nothing to do with how 456 00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:22.269 you look, what grade you got, how your career is going. 457 00:25:22.289 --> 00:25:25.250 I just care about you and your basic needs. 458 00:25:25.869 --> 00:25:29.400 And what did you see change? In the dialogue with 459 00:25:29.420 --> 00:25:31.809 your kids when you started asking about lunch instead of 460 00:25:31.829 --> 00:25:32.549 the Spanish test. 461 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:35.849 Well, first of all, what I have realized and what 462 00:25:35.900 --> 00:25:39.029 the research shows is my kids don't need me to 463 00:25:39.109 --> 00:25:42.650 ask about their Spanish test. They already are getting the 464 00:25:42.750 --> 00:25:47.500 signals everywhere that achievement matters so much. My home needs 465 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:50.759 to be a place for kids to recover from the 466 00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:54.359 pressure they're feeling from their peers, from their peers' parents, 467 00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:56.940 from teachers, from the college admissions process. 468 00:25:57.420 --> 00:25:59.549 My home needs to be a haven from that pressure. 469 00:26:00.269 --> 00:26:02.549 So I don't need to ask about their Spanish quiz 470 00:26:02.609 --> 00:26:03.589 because they're going to tell me. 471 00:26:04.329 --> 00:26:07.109 It's already on their minds. So is the same true 472 00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:09.990 when your partner comes home from work or your roommates 473 00:26:10.049 --> 00:26:13.750 come home from work? How do you signal that they 474 00:26:13.789 --> 00:26:16.750 matter to you? What's the question that you ask? What 475 00:26:16.769 --> 00:26:17.799 was the best part of your day? 476 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.430 What mattering to me is, is that I value for 477 00:26:22.509 --> 00:26:25.690 who you are at your core. It is not contingent 478 00:26:25.789 --> 00:26:28.470 on your performance. It's not contingent on how you look 479 00:26:28.490 --> 00:26:30.930 that day. It's not contingent on how many dates you're 480 00:26:30.970 --> 00:26:35.410 going on. You matter no matter what. Unconditional mattering. And 481 00:26:35.430 --> 00:26:38.170 we need to be a source of unlocking it in 482 00:26:38.210 --> 00:26:38.779 other people. 483 00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:43.000 I love the advice that if you want to unlock... 484 00:26:43.390 --> 00:26:46.069 this sense of mattering. And if you want to build 485 00:26:46.089 --> 00:26:49.049 your own self-esteem, put your attention on other people and 486 00:26:49.109 --> 00:26:53.410 unlock it in them. Make eye contact, smile, point out 487 00:26:53.490 --> 00:26:56.740 what you appreciate that people are doing for you. Thank people, 488 00:26:57.019 --> 00:27:00.940 compliment their nails. It's so easy to do and not 489 00:27:00.980 --> 00:27:02.940 enough of us are doing it. And you do get 490 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.880 back this reciprocal exchange of energy and that makes you 491 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.839 feel important because you just made somebody else smile or 492 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.009 you just made somebody else light up when you said 493 00:27:13.049 --> 00:27:15.890 their name. There was a Gallup study that was done 494 00:27:15.950 --> 00:27:18.690 that I found to be shocking that something like 80% 495 00:27:18.690 --> 00:27:21.960 of people haven't been told by their boss that they're 496 00:27:22.059 --> 00:27:26.819 appreciated in the last year. Not a single acknowledgement

that 497 00:27:26.910 --> 00:27:29.259 what you do here matters and I appreciate you for 498 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:33.400 doing it. And that to me is stunning, except for 499 00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:36.670 the fact that the same research showed, if I recall correctly, 500 00:27:37.210 --> 00:27:41.609 that most people assume you know how I feel about you. 501 00:27:42.500 --> 00:27:46.640 And that's the huge mistake that we're all making, that 502 00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:49.319 we assume that our kids know that we love them, 503 00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:53.279 but we never say that. That we put our attention 504 00:27:53.700 --> 00:27:57.740 on other things like the Spanish test, which then cues 505 00:27:57.789 --> 00:28:01.009 to somebody, that's what she cares about. That's all that 506 00:28:01.069 --> 00:28:04.130 she cares about. She's really happy when the team wins. 507 00:28:04.170 --> 00:28:06.990 She's not so happy when we don't. And so I 508 00:28:07.069 --> 00:28:12.750 think what you're revealing is this real thin veil That 509 00:28:13.490 --> 00:28:16.240 separates us from one another that we don't realize we 510 00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:20.440 need to have to get super, super proactive about. 511 00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:24.400 One of the reasons that people, research finds this, that 512 00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:26.529 we don't tell people how much they mean to us 513 00:28:26.589 --> 00:28:29.289 and how much we appreciate them is because we think 514 00:28:29.309 --> 00:28:29.690 they're going. 515 00:28:29.609 --> 00:28:32.609 To be embarrassed by our feedback. Really? 516 00:28:32.970 --> 00:28:33.369 Yeah. 517 00:28:33.410 --> 00:28:36.210 There's a research on gratitude about why people don't express 518 00:28:36.230 --> 00:28:40.599 their gratitude because they underestimate gratitude. how the other person 519 00:28:40.630 --> 00:28:42.819 will receive it. And sometimes they think they'll embarrass the 520 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:45.839 other person. But the research does not bear that out. 521 00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:48.480 So just to clear up any misconceptions. 522 00:28:49.380 --> 00:28:54.039 You said that 80 plus percent of parents believe that 523 00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:56.599 if your kid is doing poorly on a test or 524 00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.359 gets bad grades, it is a reflection on your parenting. 525 00:29:01.059 --> 00:29:03.759 But you've got this amazing reframe. What does a bad 526 00:29:03.859 --> 00:29:05.529 grade mean? Yes. 527 00:29:05.660 --> 00:29:09.289 I got this wonderful advice from a child psychologist, Lisa Damore, 528 00:29:09.369 --> 00:29:11.789 and I have used it in my own home as well. 529 00:29:12.470 --> 00:29:16.130 So when a child brings home a bad grade, Instead 530 00:29:16.170 --> 00:29:19.430 of dismissing it or saying that's okay, help them widen 531 00:29:19.450 --> 00:29:23.160 their perspective. Here's what a bad grade on a one-off 532 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:25.940 test tells you. It

tells you that that's what you 533 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.400 knew that specific day. It doesn't mean how much your 534 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:32.059 teacher loves you. It doesn't mean how well you're going 535 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:34.970 to do in the future. It doesn't define who you are. 536 00:29:34.869 --> 00:29:35.549 As a student. 537 00:29:36.049 --> 00:29:39.650 It's one test on one particular day, and we all 538 00:29:39.690 --> 00:29:40.289 have bad days. 539 00:29:41.089 --> 00:29:44.430 I love that. I love that. You have this incredible 540 00:29:44.529 --> 00:29:48.410 family motto. I would love for every family to adopt this. 541 00:29:48.450 --> 00:29:49.299 Can you share it with us? 542 00:29:50.170 --> 00:29:53.000 So in our family, we have a mantra, which is 543 00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:54.480 to never worry alone. 544 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:58.380 And that's true of us as parents and also of 545 00:29:58.440 --> 00:29:58.920 our kids. 546 00:29:59.670 --> 00:30:02.450 And what I hope to instill in my kids with 547 00:30:02.470 --> 00:30:05.299 that mantra is the idea that we are worthy of support. 548 00:30:05.900 --> 00:30:11.359 We are worthy of being held and nurtured and supported 549 00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:14.059 when we are having setbacks. We are not our setbacks. 550 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:15.599 Our worth is our worth. 551 00:30:16.140 --> 00:30:20.009 And when we worry with others, we feel validated. We 552 00:30:20.150 --> 00:30:23.269 hear our worth. We see it in the support that 553 00:30:23.309 --> 00:30:25.990 others give us. We get that social proof that we 554 00:30:26.049 --> 00:30:29.950 are valued no matter what. Whatever you do, don't worry alone. 555 00:30:30.190 --> 00:30:33.650 That's when we get into trouble. So reach out for support. 556 00:30:34.930 --> 00:30:38.329 We think as parents, our job is to raise self-reliant, 557 00:30:38.470 --> 00:30:41.950 independent adults. And that is an important thing to do. 558 00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:45.369 But there is a more profound lesson that our kids 559 00:30:45.410 --> 00:30:47.089 need to learn if we want to raise them to 560 00:30:47.150 --> 00:30:51.910 be healthy. And that is the skills of interdependence, how 561 00:30:52.009 --> 00:30:55.569 to rely on others and how to have others rely 562 00:30:55.730 --> 00:30:58.880 on them in healthy ways. And so that's where the 563 00:30:58.910 --> 00:31:02.059 don't worry alone comes from, is part of the skills 564 00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:06.819 that I'm trying to teach my kids of interdependence. Oh, wow. 565 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:13.400 That's so important. You're right. And we do focus on 566 00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:16.960 pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and being self-reliant and 567 00:31:17.019 --> 00:31:23.789 taking responsibility, that modeling healthy connection and interdependence, getting support 568 00:31:23.809 --> 00:31:26.910 when you need support, talking about your feelings. We got 569 00:31:26.930 --> 00:31:30.190 to model that too. And if you're not, you're teaching 570 00:31:30.250 --> 00:31:32.740 somebody to suffer in silence the way that so many 571 00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.980 of us have for generations. One other thing that I 572 00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:39.240 love that you wrote about was that being good enough 573 00:31:39.259 --> 00:31:43.609 is is way better than being perfect. Why is that? Yes. 574 00:31:43.849 --> 00:31:47.069 So I talk about this in the book that when 575 00:31:47.109 --> 00:31:50.809 my oldest was born almost 18 years ago, I thought 576 00:31:50.849 --> 00:31:53.359 about going back to graduate school to get a PhD 577 00:31:53.390 --> 00:31:56.019 in psychology so that I could be the perfect parent 578 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:02.519 with the latest research. And what I found is that 579 00:32:02.619 --> 00:32:06.240 perfection as a parent does not serve me and it 580 00:32:06.299 --> 00:32:09.779 does not serve my kids. What serves us both better 581 00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:13.279 is this idea of being good enough. And the good 582 00:32:13.339 --> 00:32:17.299 enough mother is responsive to her kids' needs. She doesn't 583 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:21.079 meet every need because she can't only, you know, no 584 00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.720 one can, but to be responsive, to acknowledge it, to 585 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:27.609 validate the need and to do the best that you 586 00:32:27.670 --> 00:32:31.569 can do. And that takes us off the hook as parents, 587 00:32:31.609 --> 00:32:34.269 not needing to be perfect. And it helps our kids 588 00:32:34.670 --> 00:32:37.390 regulate their emotions when they get a little bit disappointed 589 00:32:37.450 --> 00:32:40.609 and frustrated that they can't have the perfect parent in 590 00:32:40.650 --> 00:32:41.470 this situation. 591 00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:46.200 It reminds me of this thing that you wrote, the 592 00:32:46.220 --> 00:32:50.279 difference between getting a 91% on a test and a 593 00:32:50.259 --> 00:32:51.599 99 is having a good life. 594 00:32:54.140 --> 00:32:55.579 That is it. That is it. 595 00:32:55.660 --> 00:32:58.410 And, you know, as parents, I certainly fell into this 596 00:32:58.450 --> 00:33:02.089 trap myself. The idea that we had to put our 597 00:33:02.150 --> 00:33:06.230 needs behind our kids at every turn. And I certainly 598 00:33:06.309 --> 00:33:09.269 subscribe to that idea of needing to be the perfect mother. 599 00:33:10.109 --> 00:33:12.430 And then I realized that I was getting burnt out. 600 00:33:13.130 --> 00:33:15.769 I would say the thing that really changed my mind 601 00:33:15.809 --> 00:33:19.490 about all of this is the research. The number one 602 00:33:19.609 --> 00:33:24.519 intervention for any child in distress is to make sure 603 00:33:24.579 --> 00:33:28.119 the primary caregiver, most often the mother or the father, 604 00:33:28.619 --> 00:33:32.859 that their wellbeing, their mental health is

intact because a 605 00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:39.690 child's resilience rests fundamentally on their caregiver's resilience. And caregivers' 606 00:33:39.750 --> 00:33:45.390 resilience rests fundamentally on the depth and support of their relationships. 607 00:33:46.529 --> 00:33:50.490 I want to make sure everybody heard that. You're saying 608 00:33:51.579 --> 00:33:55.400 that based on the research, if there is a child 609 00:33:55.579 --> 00:34:01.099 that is struggling, the most important intervention that works to 610 00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:07.039 help the struggling child is to give the caregiver of 611 00:34:07.099 --> 00:34:09.980 that child, deeper levels of support. 612 00:34:10.900 --> 00:34:11.139 Yes. 613 00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:14.260 If you're somebody that's listening to us right now and 614 00:34:14.300 --> 00:34:17.010 you're like, Jenny, Mel, that sounds great, but I don't 615 00:34:17.050 --> 00:34:19.010 have anybody or I don't even know where to start 616 00:34:19.030 --> 00:34:20.250 or who the hell am I going to ask because 617 00:34:20.289 --> 00:34:23.510 everyone that I know is also burnt out. You have 618 00:34:23.550 --> 00:34:25.710 a framework for this. So can you lay it out 619 00:34:25.750 --> 00:34:27.769 for everybody listening? Sure. 620 00:34:27.789 --> 00:34:31.030 So this is a study that was originally started by 621 00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:33.820 Sonia Luthar, one of the leading researchers in the world 622 00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:38.130 on resilience. And she did a series of studies, including 623 00:34:38.190 --> 00:34:41.590 people who were busy mothers and also had a busy 624 00:34:41.630 --> 00:34:45.170 professional life. And she wanted to find out if one 625 00:34:45.369 --> 00:34:49.170 hour a week for three months, one hour a week 626 00:34:49.489 --> 00:34:52.239 with a small group of four to five people in 627 00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:55.460 the same sort of kind of world, if they could 628 00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:58.000 be sources of support for each other. And what she 629 00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:03.260 found was no mother bowed out, even when the busyness, 630 00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:07.590 you know, of their professional and home lives were calling 631 00:35:07.650 --> 00:35:10.809 for them. One hour of the week, they met, they 632 00:35:10.889 --> 00:35:14.099 talked about their struggles. And at the end of it, 633 00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:19.599 she measured their cortisol levels. Those had lowered. She measured well-being, 634 00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:23.010 the relationships with their kids and relationships with their parents. 635 00:35:23.050 --> 00:35:25.289 And what she found was that you only need one 636 00:35:25.449 --> 00:35:28.570 hour of deliberate support a week. 637 00:35:29.070 --> 00:35:33.420 One hour. And after the three-month intervention... The mothers. 638 00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:37.039 Reported stronger connections with their kids, less stress when it 639 00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:40.909 came to work and home life and lower levels of cortisol. 640 00:35:41.369 --> 00:35:42.650 And for those of you going, but I don't know 641 00:35:42.670 --> 00:35:46.170 where to get it. Churches have free daycare and they 642 00:35:46.210 --> 00:35:47.650 have a lot of support groups. That would be a 643 00:35:47.670 --> 00:35:51.360 great place to start. Community centers, looking in your town's 644 00:35:51.579 --> 00:35:55.760 Facebook group. pages for events that are going on. You're 645 00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.739 not going to find it sitting on your couch complaining 646 00:35:58.780 --> 00:36:00.599 to yourself about it. You're going to have to put 647 00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.070 yourself out there. You also say it's critical that we 648 00:36:04.130 --> 00:36:07.730 tell our kids and our colleagues and our friends our 649 00:36:07.849 --> 00:36:09.869 failure stories. What does that mean? 650 00:36:10.630 --> 00:36:14.110 So my daughter was in seventh grade and she considered 651 00:36:14.150 --> 00:36:17.849 herself a good writer and her seventh grade teacher gave 652 00:36:17.909 --> 00:36:20.409 her her paperback and it had red marks all over 653 00:36:20.429 --> 00:36:23.920 the place. So she was so discouraged. And I said, Caroline, 654 00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:26.639 come to my computer. And I pulled up an early 655 00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:29.360 article I had written for the Washington Post science section. 656 00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:33.219 And it was edited by a really seasoned, wonderful editor. 657 00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:37.530 And it was a bloodbath. There were comments. There was, 658 00:36:37.570 --> 00:36:39.710 I don't understand this. Can you add more here? I 659 00:36:39.750 --> 00:36:43.510 need another interview. Where is this study? Where... And my 660 00:36:43.550 --> 00:36:45.230 daughter was like, oh my God, I can't believe they 661 00:36:45.269 --> 00:36:47.510 let you write for them. And I said, see, at 662 00:36:47.630 --> 00:36:50.449 first I was embarrassed. I told her to need all 663 00:36:50.489 --> 00:36:52.989 that work to see all those red marks. And then 664 00:36:53.070 --> 00:36:55.070 I thought about it a different way. I said, oh, 665 00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:58.440 this person is trying to invest in me. They are 666 00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:01.579 trying to make me a better writer. So I now 667 00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:04.039 welcome feedback is what I said to my daughter. I 668 00:37:04.460 --> 00:37:07.079 sometimes even say out loud to myself in my office, well, 669 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:10.860 that's enough for the day because I have a tendency 670 00:37:10.889 --> 00:37:13.480 to overwork. And so I have to put the brakes 671 00:37:13.579 --> 00:37:16.320 on myself. And I want to model that out loud 672 00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:16.900 to my kids. 673 00:37:17.420 --> 00:37:19.489 You have a nicer way of saying, I'm always like, well, 674 00:37:19.650 --> 00:37:24.920 I just fucked up

again. And they're like, mom, dollar 675 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:26.579 in the swear jar. I'm like, I'm going to be 676 00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:29.380 paying for your college tuition with the amount I'm swearing 677 00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:33.159 around here because I screw up all the freaking time. 678 00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:36.150 I could talk to you for hours, but you know 679 00:37:36.190 --> 00:37:38.210 what really matters right now is hearing a word from 680 00:37:38.230 --> 00:37:40.789 our sponsors because they allow me to bring this content 681 00:37:40.809 --> 00:37:43.530 to you at zero cost. So let's take a quick pause, 682 00:37:43.929 --> 00:37:46.190 hear from our sponsors, and we will be right back 683 00:37:46.230 --> 00:37:46.550 with more. 684 00:37:50.429 --> 00:37:53.329 The Chemist Warehouse Fall Frenzy Mega Sale is now live. 685 00:37:53.510 --> 00:37:55.909 Find up to half price off RRP on big brands 686 00:37:56.110 --> 00:37:59.880 like Bio Oil, Lusotanning and SVR. Plus John Frieda, Batiste 687 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:02.559 and Aussie Hair Care. And find great offers on big 688 00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:07.360 brand vitamins. But hurry, sale must end September 20. Chemist Warehouse, great. 689 00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:08.320 Savings every day. 690 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:13.769 Loyalty has its rewards. Just ask the faithful. Coke Zero 691 00:38:13.809 --> 00:38:16.329 and Diet Coke selected range 2 litre, just € 2 each. 692 00:38:16.670 --> 00:38:19.530 Only with the MyCentra app. And Goodfellas New York style 693 00:38:19.570 --> 00:38:23.889 pizza range € 4. 50 each. Grab your round table refreshments with Centra. 694 00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:26.280 Proud food sponsor of the Traders Ireland. 695 00:38:26.739 --> 00:38:27.280 Centra. 696 00:38:27.539 --> 00:38:29.860 Live every day. DRL Supplies. 697 00:38:30.659 --> 00:38:33.340 We're all shaped by where we come from. From Croom 698 00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:38.030 to Calorglin, Mullen to Manor Hamilton. Our homegrown businesses carry 699 00:38:38.050 --> 00:38:41.449 the Irish spirit onto the world stage. And when they succeed, 700 00:38:42.070 --> 00:38:46.820 we feel it here. In jobs created, opportunities unlocked, and 701 00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:51.179 futures built. Inspiring us to dream bigger. And however far 702 00:38:51.219 --> 00:38:54.780 we reach in the world, to keep growing home. Learn 703 00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:59.940 more at growinghome.ie Enterprise Ireland. Helping Irish business go global. 704 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.260 Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm here with Jenny Wallace, 705 00:39:08.300 --> 00:39:11.760 who's written the book Never Enough. She has researched the 706 00:39:11.860 --> 00:39:15.900 topic of the grind culture and toxic achievement for over 707 00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.920 four years, and her research concludes that what we all 708 00:39:19.019 --> 00:39:22.289 actually need is to feel like we matter. So let's 709 00:39:22.349 --> 00:39:25.949 learn more research-backed tools that we can use in order 710 00:39:25.989 --> 00:39:28.929 to achieve that. What are the top things that parents 711 00:39:29.030 --> 00:39:33.239 say or do that we have no idea is eroding 712 00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:38.400 or erasing the value that your kids need to feel? Yeah. 713 00:39:38.889 --> 00:39:43.760 So the first thing that we do is criticize. And 714 00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:47.659 most of us know not to be harsh critics of 715 00:39:47.739 --> 00:39:53.179 our kids, right? This generation is very aware of not 716 00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:59.710 being overly critical. But really, criticism impacts our kids up 717 00:39:59.769 --> 00:40:00.869 to five times. 718 00:40:00.630 --> 00:40:03.239 More than a compliment does. Wow, really? 719 00:40:03.260 --> 00:40:04.219 Yeah. 720 00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:06.360 So what I try to keep in my mind is 721 00:40:06.429 --> 00:40:10.789 that to create this kind of healthy environment in my house, 722 00:40:10.989 --> 00:40:13.429 I need to keep a ratio in mind. I need 723 00:40:13.469 --> 00:40:16.880 to think that for every one criticism, I need to 724 00:40:16.980 --> 00:40:21.019 at least have five positive interactions with my kids. We 725 00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:24.519 are wired as parents to look for the negative and 726 00:40:24.539 --> 00:40:27.809 to try to help our kids overcome the negative. But 727 00:40:27.889 --> 00:40:29.730 really what we need to do to have that kind 728 00:40:29.769 --> 00:40:32.630 of connection is we need to focus on the positive 729 00:40:32.650 --> 00:40:34.429 things that are inherent about them. 730 00:40:34.949 --> 00:40:36.769 What is it about them that's unique? 731 00:40:37.369 --> 00:40:40.179 And so when you look at the research on achievement 732 00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:46.480 culture or on healthy connections, it is having that warm relationship, 733 00:40:48.809 --> 00:40:53.809 criticism and prioritizing affection. That is what helps us create 734 00:40:53.869 --> 00:40:58.710 this connection at home. So when I asked the leading researcher, 735 00:40:58.789 --> 00:41:02.070 Sunia Luthar, what's one thing I could do tonight in 736 00:41:02.110 --> 00:41:05.469 my house to buffer against any achievement pressure in my home? 737 00:41:06.150 --> 00:41:08.070 She gave me a phrase that I've kept in my head, 738 00:41:08.349 --> 00:41:13.079 which is minimize criticism, prioritize affection. 739 00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:14.960 She said the kids who. 740 00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:17.860 Were the healthiest in her studies are who went to 741 00:41:17.889 --> 00:41:22.019 these competitive schools, at home, their parents were not critical 742 00:41:22.059 --> 00:41:25.119 of them. They were able to separate the deed from 743 00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:28.260 the doer. So can you define criticism? 744 00:41:28.300 --> 00:41:30.610 Because I'm thinking about a situation with our daughter the 745 00:41:30.650 --> 00:41:34.030

other day where she's moving back to LA. She's out 746 00:41:34.070 --> 00:41:36.550 of college. I still consider her a kid because this 747 00:41:36.889 --> 00:41:40.880 stuff about mattering. is for all of us. And we 748 00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:43.849 were talking about the fact that today, while you and 749 00:41:43.869 --> 00:41:46.489 I are talking, she's on an airplane heading back. And 750 00:41:46.570 --> 00:41:49.070 she got her knickers in a pinch because she wanted 751 00:41:49.110 --> 00:41:52.050 to put all of her shoes in a box and 752 00:41:52.090 --> 00:41:55.579 then ship the box. And I was like, no. That's 753 00:41:55.619 --> 00:41:58.090 going to cost like a hundred dollars for crying out loud. 754 00:41:58.409 --> 00:42:02.269 You get two checked bags for 25 bucks and I 755 00:42:02.309 --> 00:42:04.610 can check a bag with your... So I criticized, right? 756 00:42:04.690 --> 00:42:06.130 Is that what you're talking about? Are you talking about 757 00:42:06.190 --> 00:42:11.099 criticizing her for being stupid? Criticizing her. That's exactly right. 758 00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:14.780 It's separating, like you did, the deed from the doer. 759 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:20.989 She's not dumb. spending a hundred and whatever to send shoes. 760 00:42:21.030 --> 00:42:23.730 That's kind of dumb when you can spend $ 25. Exactly. 761 00:42:24.070 --> 00:42:26.590 And now she's on a budget. It's amazing how you 762 00:42:26.659 --> 00:42:29.500 don't have champagne taste anymore when you're paying for it yourself. 763 00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:32.199 You know what I'm saying? I do. And that leads 764 00:42:32.260 --> 00:42:35.659 right into something else that I think is super important 765 00:42:35.739 --> 00:42:40.610 for everyone to hear based on the research. Chores, chores, chores, 766 00:42:40.969 --> 00:42:44.969 chores matter. They not only matter because you need the 767 00:42:45.010 --> 00:42:47.230 people that you live with to be helping with chores, 768 00:42:47.820 --> 00:42:53.960 but chores impact this instinctual desire to matter. How so? 769 00:42:55.300 --> 00:42:59.480 What chores do is not only build a work ethic and, 770 00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:03.480 you know, a sense that they're competent More than that, 771 00:43:03.619 --> 00:43:06.760 it shows them that they are an important part of 772 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:11.519 the family. And family is the first introduction to society 773 00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:15.900 for a child. To show them how to be a 774 00:43:16.099 --> 00:43:19.440 contributing member of the family is one of the most 775 00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:22.920 important lessons that we have as parents if we want 776 00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:26.780 to start developing a healthier society than what we're seeing now. 777 00:43:27.260 --> 00:43:29.820 So instead of saying to your kids, You need to 778 00:43:29.900 --> 00:43:32.599 set the table. I'm sick of setting the table. You 779 00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:34.559 could

reframe it. Were you here last night? 780 00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:38.869 You could reframe it. 781 00:43:38.849 --> 00:43:42.829 And say, hey, dad's cooking dinner. I'm working on a deadline. 782 00:43:43.250 --> 00:43:46.650 Who can pitch in and set the table? Teaching kids 783 00:43:46.730 --> 00:43:49.809 how to look at other people's needs as well. 784 00:43:50.210 --> 00:43:53.389 Does that make sense? I love that. And I'd like 785 00:43:53.429 --> 00:43:56.929 a few more scripts. So let's role play here because 786 00:43:56.969 --> 00:43:59.949 the old Mel, what I've been doing to date is Oakley, 787 00:44:00.250 --> 00:44:03.050 your room looks like shit. Look at that pile of laundry. 788 00:44:03.070 --> 00:44:06.719 You smell disgusting. I'm not your maid. There's no laundry 789 00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:09.079 fairy that lives in this house. You got to get 790 00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:15.179 the laundry done. What would be a more effective and 791 00:44:15.949 --> 00:44:17.170 better way to say that? 792 00:44:18.230 --> 00:44:22.269 Say, I am really busy this week. I have so 793 00:44:22.289 --> 00:44:24.090 many deadlines. Can you do me a favor? I really 794 00:44:24.110 --> 00:44:26.449 need these pants cleaned. When you do your laundry, can 795 00:44:26.489 --> 00:44:28.230 you throw a couple of my things in too? 796 00:44:29.449 --> 00:44:34.929 Wow. I just got something, Jenny. I hate doing laundry. 797 00:44:35.550 --> 00:44:37.900 And so I resent the fact that it's building up. 798 00:44:38.530 --> 00:44:41.429 Because I do ask him in a very kind way, hey, bud, 799 00:44:41.530 --> 00:44:44.809 could you stop by the grocery store on your way 800 00:44:44.949 --> 00:44:47.489 home from practice? It would be a huge help if 801 00:44:47.530 --> 00:44:50.289 you could pick up these three things because I need 802 00:44:50.309 --> 00:44:54.280 them to make dinner tonight. And he's delightful. But we 803 00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:57.739 are in this standoff where I'm like, let's go. Get 804 00:44:57.780 --> 00:45:01.599 your laundry done. And I'm kind of making fun, but 805 00:45:01.659 --> 00:45:07.539 I'm not as supportive of and effective in the laundry. 806 00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:09.179 Cause I don't want to have to do it. I don't, 807 00:45:09.380 --> 00:45:11.380 you know, but I like what you're saying. Help me 808 00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:13.340 with this. Can you throw a load in? It'd be 809 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:14.239 a really big help. 810 00:45:15.260 --> 00:45:15.489 Yeah. 811 00:45:16.329 --> 00:45:16.789 I love that. 812 00:45:16.829 --> 00:45:16.969 Yeah. 813 00:45:17.269 --> 00:45:19.530 And then it's not a power struggle. Then it's asking 814 00:45:20.070 --> 00:45:25.210 for help. It's reaching out for support. That's true. That's true. Yeah. 815 00:45:25.929 --> 00:45:26.789 I would say one of the. 816 00:45:26.739 --> 00:45:31.599 Things that was an eye opener for me was how 817 00:45:31.659 --> 00:45:34.780 important it is

to ask our kids for their opinions 818 00:45:35.019 --> 00:45:38.780 about things. When we don't ask our kids for their opinions, 819 00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:43.340 we tell them your opinion doesn't matter right now. And instead, 820 00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:46.000 we can empower them. We can ask them advice. 821 00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:47.110 We can, you know.... 822 00:45:48.510 --> 00:45:51.510 Planning a vacation, having them go on and look for 823 00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:54.440 the best rate on a hotel room or the best 824 00:45:54.539 --> 00:45:57.679 price for a rental car. Show them they have an impact. 825 00:45:58.019 --> 00:46:00.659 Show them they can add value to the family. To 826 00:46:00.739 --> 00:46:05.739 matter is to feel valued at our core by family, friends, 827 00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:09.840 and community, but also being relied on and depended on 828 00:46:09.949 --> 00:46:14.630 to add meaningful value back to the family, to the school, 829 00:46:14.769 --> 00:46:18.880 to the community. So, you know, knowing about mattering has 830 00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:22.300 changed the conversations I have with my kids. So there 831 00:46:22.340 --> 00:46:25.889 is a phrase by a Brown University sociologist named Gregory 832 00:46:25.989 --> 00:46:30.389 Elliott that really resonated with me. And he said, what 833 00:46:30.469 --> 00:46:34.920 gets in early gets in deep. And when you are 834 00:46:35.019 --> 00:46:39.239 growing up and you are told you don't matter. 835 00:46:40.070 --> 00:46:41.449 We don't want your opinion. 836 00:46:42.050 --> 00:46:45.329 We value your brother more than we value you. When 837 00:46:45.349 --> 00:46:51.199 you're interrupted, when nobody sees what is interesting and unique 838 00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:54.579 and special about you as a human, that gets in 839 00:46:54.619 --> 00:46:58.239 deep and it takes a lot of work to get 840 00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:00.510 it out. And I don't know that it ever leaves 841 00:47:01.429 --> 00:47:04.829 this unmet need to matter, but I do know that 842 00:47:04.869 --> 00:47:09.420 it doesn't take much to let people in your life strangers, 843 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:12.420 the people you love, to let them know they matter. 844 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:17.230 It happens in small, everyday interactions. It doesn't have to 845 00:47:17.289 --> 00:47:18.610 be a big grand gesture. 846 00:47:19.070 --> 00:47:24.630 These small interactions build. I feel like there's a number 847 00:47:24.650 --> 00:47:28.409 of things that you stopped doing. You stopped criticizing. You 848 00:47:28.449 --> 00:47:31.480 stopped ignoring their opinions. Is there anything else that you 849 00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:34.500 stopped doing or that you changed after doing this research project? 850 00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:37.519 So a lot of the wise parents that I met 851 00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:42.079 had a volunteer mandate in their family. So you know 852 00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:44.960 how some parents say, I don't care what sport you play. 853 00:47:45.019 --> 00:47:46.800 You could play soccer, anything you want to play, but 854 00:47:46.820 --> 00:47:49.500 you have to stay active. That's a value in our family. 855 00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:53.599 I now have a volunteer mandate and it's for everyone 856 00:47:53.619 --> 00:47:57.239 in our family. We devote time every weekend to that, 857 00:47:57.400 --> 00:47:58.719 just like some parents. 858 00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:02.159 Would with sports. I love that. I love that. 859 00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:05.039 I'll tell you another thing I've stopped doing, please. I 860 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.519 used to praise my kids. I used to say, you're 861 00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:10.199 so good at this. 862 00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:12.119 You're so good at that. Wow, you're strong in math. 863 00:48:12.909 --> 00:48:16.349 I have found in the research that a child's sense 864 00:48:16.389 --> 00:48:21.190 of self becomes stronger, less by being praised, which can 865 00:48:21.210 --> 00:48:28.670 feel like pressure, are. So I've gotten what I call 866 00:48:28.710 --> 00:48:31.989 a PhD in my kids. I study them just like 867 00:48:32.010 --> 00:48:35.010 they're studying me. And I see what makes them tick. 868 00:48:35.130 --> 00:48:37.230 And that used to be something that was hard for me. 869 00:48:37.269 --> 00:48:41.199 My peers and colleagues would talk about their kids' strengths 870 00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:42.539 and this and that. And I'd say, I don't know 871 00:48:42.579 --> 00:48:44.940 what my kids' strengths are. It doesn't stick out to me. 872 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:48.559 And so as a family, we did something. It's a 873 00:48:48.659 --> 00:48:52.440 free online tool that is called the VIA Survey. 874 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:53.920 V-I-A. 875 00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:57.920 Values and Action Survey. And it tells you your five 876 00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:02.820 core strengths, things that are inherent about you. And so 877 00:49:02.940 --> 00:49:06.340 as a parent, I now focus on these strengths. We 878 00:49:06.389 --> 00:49:10.050 are no longer looking at weaknesses and sort of zooming 879 00:49:10.150 --> 00:49:13.429 in and focusing on weaknesses, which are sort of normal 880 00:49:13.530 --> 00:49:15.989 for a parent to worry about a child's weakness. You know, 881 00:49:16.030 --> 00:49:19.099 we are, we all have this negativity bias and we are, 882 00:49:19.469 --> 00:49:22.119 we are pro by evolution to focus on the negative. 883 00:49:22.179 --> 00:49:25.059 But what taking the VIA survey did is that it 884 00:49:25.139 --> 00:49:28.480 helped me see the inherent strengths of my kids and 885 00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:30.920 it made my kids feel seen and known by me. 886 00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:33.070 I'm stealing that from you. 887 00:49:33.510 --> 00:49:34.849 Yeah. 888 00:49:34.869 --> 00:49:39.710 So the research on values was eyeopening for me. What 889 00:49:39.730 --> 00:49:43.730 the research

finds is that the environments that we are 890 00:49:43.789 --> 00:49:50.469 living in, our homes, our neighborhoods, our workplaces, activate certain values. 891 00:49:51.110 --> 00:49:54.090 So if you have a child that's going to a 892 00:49:54.190 --> 00:49:59.099 competitive school, they are saturated by values. These values that 893 00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:02.420 are saying, reach that goal, get that GPA, make the A-team, 894 00:50:02.900 --> 00:50:07.030 look good. Values operate like a zero-sum game. So the 895 00:50:07.090 --> 00:50:11.130 more you spend on those extrinsic values, the less room 896 00:50:11.170 --> 00:50:14.269 in your life you have to focus on the intrinsic ones. 897 00:50:14.690 --> 00:50:17.190 You just have so much time in the day. So 898 00:50:17.210 --> 00:50:20.429 what the research says is that parents need to really 899 00:50:20.510 --> 00:50:24.570 focus on the intrinsic values at home. to balance out 900 00:50:24.630 --> 00:50:27.690 the values in our environment, the values that tell our kids, 901 00:50:28.110 --> 00:50:29.719 you need to look a certain way. You need to 902 00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:32.719 weigh a certain thing. Your hair needs to look this way. 903 00:50:32.739 --> 00:50:34.260 You need to get all these likes. You need to 904 00:50:34.300 --> 00:50:36.980 make it into this college, make it onto that sports team. 905 00:50:37.019 --> 00:50:41.119 So at home, you need to focus on the other things, 906 00:50:41.289 --> 00:50:42.670 the intrinsic values. 907 00:50:43.030 --> 00:50:44.190 You're such a good brother. 908 00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:47.840 Thank you so much for always cleaning the table and 909 00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:50.579 taking out the trash without even anybody asking. You just 910 00:50:50.659 --> 00:50:53.400 always see when there's a need in the family and 911 00:50:53.460 --> 00:50:56.019 you meet it. And there are different ways that we 912 00:50:56.059 --> 00:50:59.119 can point out these intrinsic values to our kids. One 913 00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:02.730 way is to do that via survey that we talked about. 914 00:51:03.190 --> 00:51:06.150 Another way is to listen to what Adults in our 915 00:51:06.210 --> 00:51:09.849 children's lives say about our kids. So for example, the 916 00:51:09.889 --> 00:51:12.969 teachers in my kids' schools write a little narrative along 917 00:51:13.010 --> 00:51:15.969 with their grades. And I've stopped focusing on the grade. 918 00:51:16.389 --> 00:51:18.630 And instead, I focus now on the narrative. And it's 919 00:51:18.690 --> 00:51:21.030 always about their strengths. And I do it with a 920 00:51:21.070 --> 00:51:24.250 highlighter and a pencil and I annotate them. And I'm like, 921 00:51:24.429 --> 00:51:26.730 oh my gosh, I see this too at home. Wow, 922 00:51:26.750 --> 00:51:29.090 you always do this with your sister. I try to 923 00:51:29.150 --> 00:51:30.250 balance out their values. 924 00:51:30.289 --> 00:51:31.010 And here's why. 925 00:51:31.610 --> 00:51:35.329 Because when we are overly focused on extrinsic values, research 926 00:51:35.369 --> 00:51:39.050 finds we are more likely to suffer from anxiety, depression, 927 00:51:39.309 --> 00:51:43.769 and substance abuse disorder. So that is why it is 928 00:51:43.829 --> 00:51:46.130 so important at home for a parent to focus on 929 00:51:46.150 --> 00:51:49.730 the intrinsic values that act as like a protective force 930 00:51:50.269 --> 00:51:51.030 of our self-worth. 931 00:51:51.869 --> 00:51:53.670 One of the things that Chris and I did that 932 00:51:53.710 --> 00:51:56.840 I want you to steal because... You know, our kids 933 00:51:58.079 --> 00:52:00.179 went to public high schools. We didn't get really big 934 00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:04.610 write ups. So when we go to the teacher meetings, 935 00:52:05.409 --> 00:52:07.369 we would always just say we don't want to talk 936 00:52:07.409 --> 00:52:09.429 about the grades in the schoolwork. Tell us what kind 937 00:52:09.469 --> 00:52:13.360 of a person they are when they're here. Talk to 938 00:52:13.429 --> 00:52:15.920 us about who you see here and how they are 939 00:52:15.940 --> 00:52:18.699 with their peers, how they are with you. And it's 940 00:52:18.760 --> 00:52:22.110 a way for you to get that intel from another 941 00:52:22.139 --> 00:52:26.190 adult if you're not getting those kind of reports from 942 00:52:26.349 --> 00:52:28.710 whatever school. And by the way, I just keep coming 943 00:52:28.750 --> 00:52:31.760 back to the fact that all of this is relevant 944 00:52:31.780 --> 00:52:34.800 to all of us. I just assume most people are 945 00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:39.420 walking around with a deficit in feeling as if they matter. 946 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:43.579 that most people feel that they don't. Most people have 947 00:52:43.639 --> 00:52:46.840 a deficit when it comes to the amount of times 948 00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:51.000 they're celebrated, the amount of appreciation that they get, and 949 00:52:51.059 --> 00:52:53.840 that if you go through your day, whether it's with 950 00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:59.030 your kids or your colleagues or with your friends, your partner, 951 00:52:59.570 --> 00:53:01.829 and you really just assume, most people have not been 952 00:53:01.869 --> 00:53:04.329 told that they've been appreciated in a week or a 953 00:53:04.389 --> 00:53:08.170 year or ever in their lifetime. People need to be 954 00:53:08.230 --> 00:53:12.610 lifted up, especially now. And we all have a small 955 00:53:12.670 --> 00:53:18.449 part to play. And I would argue a responsibility in 956 00:53:18.610 --> 00:53:21.400 unlocking it in other people. And you'll be surprised how 957 00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:24.199 when you put the focus on calling out what you 958 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:26.880 truly appreciate about other people, the difference they make for 959 00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:30.440 simply smiling, for simply being there, for it really comes

960 00:53:30.519 --> 00:53:33.519 back to you tenfold. You know, I always think about 961 00:53:33.559 --> 00:53:36.480 that saying, Be kind to everybody because you have no 962 00:53:36.579 --> 00:53:38.860 idea what they're dealing with. And I think it's safe 963 00:53:38.900 --> 00:53:41.699 to assume every person that you meet is dealing with 964 00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:45.610 a ton of shit. And most people have not gone 965 00:53:45.630 --> 00:53:48.570 to therapy. They do not have the tools. It's one 966 00:53:48.610 --> 00:53:53.340 of the reasons why I'm here twice a week. Because 967 00:53:53.619 --> 00:53:57.500 most people, it got in early and it got in deep. 968 00:53:57.539 --> 00:53:59.000 And it doesn't even have to be your family. If 969 00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:01.880 you were like the only brown kid in your entire 970 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:07.510 elementary school class, that seeps in. If you experience racism 971 00:54:07.570 --> 00:54:10.929 and bias, that seeps in. If you struggle with constant poverty, 972 00:54:10.989 --> 00:54:15.590 if you're being neglected or abused physically, emotionally, it seeps in. 973 00:54:15.690 --> 00:54:19.150 And it can come in in just infinite ways. And 974 00:54:19.570 --> 00:54:23.119 your research and the simple things that you're saying actually 975 00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:26.500 make a difference in your life and in anybody else's 976 00:54:26.539 --> 00:54:29.809 life when you bother to use it. So Jenny Wallace, 977 00:54:30.349 --> 00:54:34.199 thank you so much. The book is never enough. Get it, 978 00:54:34.769 --> 00:54:39.070 read it, apply it because it matters. Thank you so much, Mel. 979 00:54:39.329 --> 00:54:43.820 Thank you. Everybody, let's give it up for Jenny. Thank 980 00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:48.059 you for your expertise, your insight, and for really going 981 00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:51.500 deep on this very real problem that we all face. 982 00:54:52.110 --> 00:54:54.989 And I think you gave us incredible tools. And what 983 00:54:55.070 --> 00:55:00.670 I find the most empowering is that you and I 984 00:55:00.809 --> 00:55:02.989 hold the keys to helping other people feel like they 985 00:55:03.030 --> 00:55:05.809 matter in this world. And when you really think about that, 986 00:55:06.769 --> 00:55:10.559 isn't that a beautiful thing? Isn't that a beautiful thing 987 00:55:10.619 --> 00:55:13.639 to be able to do for another human being? To 988 00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:17.159 tell them and to make them feel that no matter 989 00:55:17.639 --> 00:55:21.869 what you do or you don't do, you belong here, 990 00:55:22.429 --> 00:55:26.190 I see you, you matter to me. And simply calling 991 00:55:26.230 --> 00:55:28.309 somebody by their name, looking them in the eye, putting 992 00:55:28.349 --> 00:55:31.789 the phone down, being present, telling them that you appreciate 993 00:55:31.849 --> 00:55:33.550 the little heart or the little leaf they put in 994 00:55:33.590 --> 00:55:37.320 the top of your coffee. That's enough. That's enough to 995 00:55:37.389 --> 00:55:42.500 flip the switch for somebody. And it's also explains why 996 00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:48.179 I always end our conversations the same way. I always 997 00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:51.300 end by telling you that In case nobody else tells you, 998 00:55:51.320 --> 00:55:53.980 I want you to know that I love you. And 999 00:55:54.019 --> 00:55:58.739 I mean it. And I say it because I want 1000 00:55:58.780 --> 00:56:01.280 you to know that you matter to me. That I 1001 00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:05.659 think about you on this walk with me. And that's 1002 00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:08.190 why I say it. So thank you for spending your 1003 00:56:08.230 --> 00:56:12.190 time with me. Thank you for sharing this conversation with 1004 00:56:12.269 --> 00:56:14.909 other people in your life. Thank you for showing up 1005 00:56:14.969 --> 00:56:18.030 for yourself. I love you. I believe in you. And 1006 00:56:18.050 --> 00:56:20.880 I believe in your abilities. to create a better, more 1007 00:56:20.900 --> 00:56:21.559 meaningful life. 1008 00:56:22.099 --> 00:56:22.440 All right. 1009 00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:32.070 I'll talk to you in a couple of days. Are 1010 00:56:32.090 --> 00:56:33.710 you ready for me, Jessie? 1011 00:56:33.730 --> 00:56:33.800 Yes. 1012 00:56:34.969 --> 00:56:35.190 Okay. 1013 00:56:35.929 --> 00:56:36.769 So it's cool to do that? 1014 00:56:36.789 --> 00:56:38.510 Yeah. Okay. 1015 00:56:39.369 --> 00:56:42.960 Can you turn down the return just a little? Yeah. Awesome. 1016 00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:45.480 Thank you so much. Oh, I don't know how to 1017 00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:48.400 do that. Okay. I mean, I don't have a pro... 1018 00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:50.829 Hold on a second. Let me try that one more time. 1019 00:56:51.630 --> 00:56:52.190 Something like that. 1020 00:56:52.789 --> 00:56:52.989 Good. 1021 00:56:54.409 --> 00:56:56.929 Okay. Great. Oh, I think we should add one more thing. 1022 00:56:57.469 --> 00:56:57.769 Oh, yeah. 1023 00:56:58.510 --> 00:57:11.920 Do you want this or no? Okay, great. Great. Thank you, guys. Oh, 1024 00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:14.880 and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. 1025 00:57:15.500 --> 00:57:19.309 This is... is the legal language. You know, what the 1026 00:57:19.369 --> 00:57:21.369 lawyers write and what I need to read to you. 1027 00:57:22.110 --> 00:57:26.989 This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. 1028 00:57:27.650 --> 00:57:30.920 I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. 1029 00:57:31.099 --> 00:57:34.460 And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for 1030 00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:38.679 the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other 1031 00:57:38.900 --> 00:57:40.889 qualified professional. Got it? 1032 00:57:41.400 --> 00:57:41.639 Good. 1033 00:57:42.099 --> 00:57:43.260 I'll see you in the next episode. 1034 00:57:50.940 --> 00:57:54.590 Great Irish strawberries don't happen by accident. In North County, Dublin, 1035 00:57:54.969 --> 00:57:57.570 M & S select growers handpick only the deepest red, 1036 00:57:57.809 --> 00:58:01.389 perfectly ripe berries, twisted gently from the stem, pollinated naturally 1037 00:58:01.429 --> 00:58:05.710 by bees, grown for flavour first. They're sweet, fragrant, and 1038 00:58:05.829 --> 00:58:09.340 unmistakably Irish. This is not just food, this is M 1039 00:58:09.340 --> 00:58:09.769 & S food. 1040 00:58:11.530 --> 00:58:13.250 Fáil go na náitia sa dag a míd lor a 1041 00:58:13.269 --> 00:58:16.780 gráin iar fáil. O chrómag a cilláir gláin, O Mólan 1042 00:58:16.820 --> 00:58:20.500 go clúinín. Ás trín gínóilachtaín a tíre seo, sbírid na 1043 00:58:20.539 --> 00:58:24.159 hÉireann chag an árdan dáundá. Agus níor a éirín ló, 1044 00:58:24.739 --> 00:58:28.780 bín seo sin labrá sa wale. Fá stílch croaiche, díosín 1045 00:58:28.820 --> 00:58:32.639 a cúir ar fáil, agus seilta á fáisú. Dors brága 1046 00:58:32.860 --> 00:58:36.219 ás línguí gán tóir a níofa again. Es cúma ca 1047 00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:39.239 fásan ar dínachar ar an dáun seo. Bímid a híir 1048 00:58:39.300 --> 00:58:44.900 ag fá sa wale. Fá tíle óleis i growinghome.ie. Fiontríoch 1049 00:58:44.940 --> 00:58:48.829 da éireann. Thank you for listening and have a great day.