555: Shane Parrish - Raising Your Standards, The Difference Between Nice & Kind Feedback, The Inner vs. Outer Scoreboard, & Turning Ordinary의 전체 녹취록

when the schooling started to like, I stopped 69 00:04:19.259 --> 00:04:21.339 getting in trouble. I didn't get good grades, but I 70 00:04:21.379 --> 00:04:23.060 was going to school. I was staying up all night 71 00:04:23.100 --> 00:04:25.990 playing on my computer. And I would go to school 72 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:28.589 the next morning and I would fall asleep in class. 73 00:04:29.029 --> 00:04:31.550 And I was the only kid in my class that 74 00:04:31.569 --> 00:04:34.709 did that until another kid came over and we started 75 00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:37.810 talking about programming. I was like, oh, I'm not alone. 76 00:04:37.910 --> 00:04:40.129 This is cool, right? So we'd both stay up all 77 00:04:40.170 --> 00:04:43.500 night programming. And then we'd fall asleep in class. So 78 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:47.600 school wasn't a priority for me. And then no teacher 79 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:50.480 had ever paid attention to me. No teacher cared about me. 80 00:04:50.660 --> 00:04:53.360 Everybody just wanted me out of their class. And totally 81 00:04:53.379 --> 00:04:56.540 understandable why in the context of this, right? Like I'm 82 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.939 not putting in much effort. I'm falling asleep in class. 83 00:05:00.139 --> 00:05:04.139 I don't tend to respect you just because you're a teacher. 84 00:05:04.500 --> 00:05:07.199 I want you to demonstrate that I should be paying attention. 85 00:05:07.779 --> 00:05:10.660 And then this grade 11 teacher comes along, Mr. Duncan. 86 00:05:11.899 --> 00:05:14.300 And Mr. Duncan believes in me. 87 00:05:14.779 --> 00:05:15.100 Mr. 88 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:18.860 Duncan tells me I have a unique mind and I 89 00:05:18.939 --> 00:05:21.769 see the world in a different way and it's beautiful. 90 00:05:21.790 --> 00:05:26.750 And Mr. Duncan starts to encourage me. My parents go 91 00:05:26.970 --> 00:05:30.350 to the parent-teacher interview. I think it was around November 92 00:05:30.430 --> 00:05:34.329 this time in grade 11. And they're like, we're here 93 00:05:34.389 --> 00:05:37.240 to talk about Shane. And they just walk in and 94 00:05:37.250 --> 00:05:40.180 they're like, We've done a host of these things. This 95 00:05:40.259 --> 00:05:43.139 is our 11th year of doing these. We know exactly 96 00:05:43.300 --> 00:05:47.019 what you're gonna say. And Mr. Duncan goes, Shane is 97 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:52.750 my best student. And my parents go, what? Is there 98 00:05:52.769 --> 00:05:55.029 more than one Shane in your class? Like you're clearly 99 00:05:55.089 --> 00:05:58.769 not talking about our son. And he's like, no, he 100 00:05:58.829 --> 00:06:01.850 sees the world in this beautiful way. And he's got 101 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:05.740 this incredible mind. And I just love it. His grades 102 00:06:05.769 --> 00:06:10.389 don't necessarily reflect all of his ability, but he's got 103 00:06:10.550 --> 00:06:13.410 so much potential if he would just try a little harder. 104

00:06:13.870 --> 00:06:17.589 And everything he had to say was really positive. And 105 00:06:17.709 --> 00:06:20.149 that was sort of reinforcing for, you know, what I 106 00:06:20.189 --> 00:06:22.430 was doing. And I started hanging around the right kids, 107 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:25.899 by right kids, I mean, not the bad kids. And 108 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:28.720 my grades changed. I, you know, I didn't even know 109 00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:31.100 what university was. One of the other moments and the 110 00:06:31.180 --> 00:06:34.420 other people, if you're listening to this, Earl Corkery, Mr. Corkery, 111 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:38.649 he also changed my life. in grade 10 when I 112 00:06:38.670 --> 00:06:40.879 was hanging out with his son and I had just 113 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:42.879 moved schools. So I was hanging out with his son 114 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:46.639 and I went to his house. It was October. We 115 00:06:46.660 --> 00:06:49.220 had dinner and we started talking about university and direction. 116 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:52.709 And I remember Mr. Corkery looked at me cause I 117 00:06:52.730 --> 00:06:56.750 was like, let's university. And then he pulled me aside quietly, 118 00:06:56.769 --> 00:06:58.449 not in front of his son. He did this very 119 00:06:58.490 --> 00:07:01.370 like tactfully, but he basically said, Hey, if you're not 120 00:07:01.410 --> 00:07:04.259 going to university, You're not hanging out with my son. 121 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:07.439 Like he is on this path and you hooligan, right? 122 00:07:07.620 --> 00:07:10.000 Correctly identifying me for what I was at the time. 123 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.180 You're not going to derail him from that path. And 124 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:14.399 I had a lot of respect for that, but I 125 00:07:14.420 --> 00:07:16.040 was like, I don't know what university is. Like, I 126 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:17.639 don't even know what this thing is. And he's like, 127 00:07:17.660 --> 00:07:19.870 I'll help you. I'll teach you, but that's gotta be 128 00:07:19.889 --> 00:07:21.589 your path. You want to hang out with my son? 129 00:07:22.009 --> 00:07:25.110 He likes you. I'd love for that to happen. And anyway, 130 00:07:25.149 --> 00:07:27.170 he became my best friend in high school and we 131 00:07:27.189 --> 00:07:29.470 spent a lot of time together, but those two people 132 00:07:29.610 --> 00:07:31.790 really changed my trajectory. 133 00:07:32.689 --> 00:07:36.180 Doesn't it show you just the power of now you 134 00:07:36.259 --> 00:07:38.399 in a leadership role, you can do this for others. 135 00:07:38.459 --> 00:07:40.060 And I think as leaders, we should all try to 136 00:07:40.100 --> 00:07:46.220 do this. But when we specifically tell somebody why we 137 00:07:46.259 --> 00:07:49.699 believe in them and how much power we have in that, 138 00:07:49.990 --> 00:07:53.089 we should wield that power to do good. What an 139 00:07:53.269 --> 00:07:56.769 awesome example of that. Is this something now you try 140 00:07:56.810 --> 00:07:59.569 to do in your own life to use the power, 141 00:07:59.610 --> 00:08:02.240 the weight of your words to To help others. 142 00:08:02.250 --> 00:08:05.720 Totally. I think for me, it becomes a lot about 143 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:09.680 giving people opportunities. Yeah. It's like, okay, let's see what 144 00:08:09.699 --> 00:08:12.339 you can do. Let's see how much autonomy you can handle. 145 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:15.800 Let's see how much responsibility you can handle. And I 146 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:18.019 believe you can handle all of it. So like, let's go, 147 00:08:18.180 --> 00:08:20.439 let's go to the ceiling of what you're capable of 148 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:23.199 and let's figure it out together. And if you fall, 149 00:08:23.220 --> 00:08:24.100 then I'll catch you. 150 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:26.899 There's another story about your dad. I would love for 151 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.699 you to tell it. You're 13 years old. You're standing 152 00:08:29.740 --> 00:08:32.360 with a group of your friends after school and your 153 00:08:32.379 --> 00:08:35.100 friends were teasing one of your classmates and the teachers 154 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.299 intervened and it ended quickly. And I read that you 155 00:08:39.330 --> 00:08:42.889 didn't realize that your dad was parked nearby and was watching. 156 00:08:43.529 --> 00:08:45.289 What did your dad say to you when you got 157 00:08:45.309 --> 00:08:46.070 in the car that day? 158 00:08:48.190 --> 00:08:52.149 Yeah, this story really hits home for me because for him, 159 00:08:52.169 --> 00:08:57.129 I walked in the car and I said, I get 160 00:08:57.169 --> 00:08:59.389 emotional talking about this because it reminds me of something else. 161 00:08:59.950 --> 00:09:01.509 I walked in the car and I said, I wasn't 162 00:09:01.549 --> 00:09:04.129 teasing him. And he was just really upset at me 163 00:09:04.350 --> 00:09:08.830 for what I didn't do. I didn't try to stop it. 164 00:09:09.210 --> 00:09:10.399 I didn't try to defend it. 165 00:09:10.389 --> 00:09:11.000 I didn't. 166 00:09:12.019 --> 00:09:15.080 And so I was guilty of doing all those things. 167 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.740 And the reason I get emotional is there was a 168 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:20.720 girl who went to the same high school I did 169 00:09:20.740 --> 00:09:30.570 about 10 years after I did. And She was gang 170 00:09:30.610 --> 00:09:34.889 raped by a group of students and committed suicide after. 171 00:09:36.250 --> 00:09:41.480 And her last Facebook post said something to the effect of, 172 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:46.559 my friends will be remembered for their silence, not speaking up, 173 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:51.159 not doing the right thing in the face of people 174 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:55.909 doing the wrong thing. I think that those stories really 175 00:09:55.950 --> 00:09:59.370 hit home for me and They've had

a profound impact 176 00:09:59.570 --> 00:10:00.690 on me. Wow. 177 00:10:00.789 --> 00:10:03.210 Thank you for sharing, man. And I appreciate, I think 178 00:10:03.830 --> 00:10:06.710 my friend Jason Gaynard said relationships move at the speed 179 00:10:06.730 --> 00:10:10.730 of vulnerability and you're a leader when it comes to that. 180 00:10:10.870 --> 00:10:14.250 I admire that about you. Thinking about that moment with 181 00:10:14.269 --> 00:10:17.710 your dad and obviously the tragic stories that followed that 182 00:10:17.730 --> 00:10:21.789 you just shared, How does that change you or how 183 00:10:21.830 --> 00:10:25.730 do you behave now when it comes to maybe speaking 184 00:10:25.830 --> 00:10:29.269 up for someone whose voice isn't as powerful as yours 185 00:10:29.409 --> 00:10:32.289 or helping other people? How do you try to speak 186 00:10:32.370 --> 00:10:32.850 up for them? 187 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.250 The lesson was sort of one of self-accountability, right? It's 188 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:42.340 not enough to know something is wrong. You have to 189 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.080 try to stop it. You have to do something about it. 190 00:10:46.899 --> 00:10:48.919 It's not enough to watch it happen. It's not enough 191 00:10:48.980 --> 00:10:54.519 to walk away. If you see somebody abusing their power, 192 00:10:55.460 --> 00:10:59.330 taking advantage of somebody else, then you have a responsibility 193 00:10:59.529 --> 00:11:02.529 to do something about that if you can. And I 194 00:11:02.570 --> 00:11:04.870 think that's an important lesson for all of us to 195 00:11:04.909 --> 00:11:10.490 take away. And it doesn't necessarily mean something strong. It 196 00:11:10.529 --> 00:11:12.950 can be something just like supporting the person. It can 197 00:11:12.970 --> 00:11:17.799 be doing something more. And the actions are sort of 198 00:11:17.860 --> 00:11:20.840 up to you in the situation. You can't be reactive 199 00:11:20.899 --> 00:11:22.899 about everything going on in your life. Sometimes you have 200 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.460 to be proactive and step in and intervene. We all 201 00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:27.299 think that somebody else is going to do that. And 202 00:11:27.330 --> 00:11:30.769 then we all end up watching something horrific happen. And 203 00:11:30.809 --> 00:11:33.509 we all know it's horrific. And we have to have 204 00:11:33.549 --> 00:11:39.330 the self-confidence and the courage that we need to do 205 00:11:39.750 --> 00:11:43.440 what's right in those moments. And that often means going 206 00:11:43.500 --> 00:11:47.220 against the crowd. That means thinking independently. And that means 207 00:11:47.259 --> 00:11:48.659 a lot of the stuff that I talk about in 208 00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:49.019 the book. 209 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:53.759 You talk a lot about being a dad and I'm 210 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:55.940 a dad as well. And so it's like the number 211 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.700

one thing I think of, and it feels like it 212 00:11:57.779 --> 00:12:02.320 is for you too. How do you spread these important 213 00:12:02.379 --> 00:12:06.159 messages to your kids? What's your way, your process of 214 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:11.149 making sure that they are growing up to be the 215 00:12:11.190 --> 00:12:12.789 type of people that you want them to be? 216 00:12:12.809 --> 00:12:14.809 I think they're going to grow up to be the 217 00:12:15.549 --> 00:12:18.259 type of people they want to be. Yeah. Not the 218 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:21.019 type of people I want them to be. And to 219 00:12:21.059 --> 00:12:23.899 the extent that I can help them and influence them 220 00:12:24.220 --> 00:12:28.379 and give them tools, all that changes. It changes so 221 00:12:28.460 --> 00:12:31.629 quickly with them. What resonates with them in one moment 222 00:12:32.230 --> 00:12:35.309 carries no weight the next moment. What really resonates with 223 00:12:35.350 --> 00:12:38.169 them some of the lessons from the book that we've 224 00:12:38.210 --> 00:12:41.110 applied for the last few years. And hopefully we continue 225 00:12:41.129 --> 00:12:45.289 to apply our sort of gas or water, which is 226 00:12:45.509 --> 00:12:48.860 I have two kids, they're 14 months apart. And they 227 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:51.539 get into, they're two boys, so they get into like 228 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:54.759 little spats. They're each other's best friends, but they're also 229 00:12:54.820 --> 00:12:57.240 each other's worst enemies at times. And they sort of 230 00:12:57.279 --> 00:12:59.899 get into these moments like we all do. We get 231 00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:02.259 into them with our partners, with our colleagues at work. 232 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:05.460 with everybody, you just end up arguing about something silly. 233 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:08.360 Like it could be how you stack the dishwasher at 234 00:13:08.419 --> 00:13:11.019 home or with my kids, it's like, who's taking out 235 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:13.740 more of the table while they do homework. But if 236 00:13:13.779 --> 00:13:16.440 that line is not perfectly down the middle, then some 237 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.279 days that causes a bit of a, and what I 238 00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:22.370 like to do is same thing that I would do 239 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:24.909 with you, Ryan. If you're arguing with your wife and 240 00:13:24.950 --> 00:13:26.730 I tap you on the shoulder and I'm like, Ryan, 241 00:13:26.750 --> 00:13:29.269 do you want to put water or gas on this situation? 242 00:13:29.289 --> 00:13:35.059 You're going to say, oh yeah, we're arguing about the dishwasher. 243 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:37.419 What are we doing here? This doesn't make any sense. 244 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:39.860 I want to put water on this. And then it 245 00:13:39.899 --> 00:13:42.399 goes out. And I do the same thing with the kids. 246 00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:45.590 And I say, hey, water or gas? Because

we've been 247 00:13:45.669 --> 00:13:47.110 using this for a while. So I can just say 248 00:13:47.149 --> 00:13:50.830 those words. And sometimes they still choose gas. They have 249 00:13:50.850 --> 00:13:53.169 some agency in this, right? They have some judgment involved. 250 00:13:53.769 --> 00:13:57.940 Most times they're like, hmm, okay, yeah, water. And so 251 00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:01.139 that language has really gone through them, and it's something 252 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:03.830 that they use. It's something we use externally too. So 253 00:14:04.330 --> 00:14:06.909 rather than sort of embarrass them if they're doing something 254 00:14:06.929 --> 00:14:09.629 and they're escalating outside the house, I'll just say water, 255 00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:12.970 and nobody knows what that means. The other ones are confidence, right? 256 00:14:13.029 --> 00:14:18.350 So I put my kids in really difficult schools. I 257 00:14:18.389 --> 00:14:21.629 think they need to be held to high standards, and 258 00:14:21.649 --> 00:14:26.139 I think that they can handle the workload. And the 259 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:30.200 inevitable sort of failures that come with that. And that 260 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:35.940 requires a lot of confidence for them in that moment. 261 00:14:36.059 --> 00:14:39.289 Because going from grade six to grade seven, when they 262 00:14:39.330 --> 00:14:43.769 changed schools, they started taking exams. They started having tests 263 00:14:44.009 --> 00:14:46.610 every week. They started having big tests every month. They 264 00:14:46.629 --> 00:14:49.309 started having exams twice a year. They started having a 265 00:14:49.309 --> 00:14:52.830 lot of homework. And that's a very different situation than 266 00:14:52.870 --> 00:14:55.149 what they were used to. And they didn't have the 267 00:14:55.210 --> 00:14:58.950 confidence to sort of do that. And so we started 268 00:14:58.970 --> 00:15:00.929 breaking this down a little bit and saying, I didn't 269 00:15:00.950 --> 00:15:03.710 have the confidence to start a business. I didn't have 270 00:15:03.730 --> 00:15:06.559 the confidence to do all these things. What I did 271 00:15:06.620 --> 00:15:10.740 have was the confidence to take the next step. I 272 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:14.120 had the confidence to take one step at a time 273 00:15:15.379 --> 00:15:20.450 and the determination and the resourcefulness to figure out the 274 00:15:20.490 --> 00:15:23.659 next step. And that's how we get anywhere. And so 275 00:15:23.700 --> 00:15:26.080 that's how we approach school, which is one step at 276 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.139 a time. You don't need the confidence to get to 277 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:30.769 the ultimate goal. You need the confidence to take the 278 00:15:30.809 --> 00:15:34.490 next step. We call it next step confidence. And it's 279 00:15:34.529 --> 00:15:39.129 helped them do everything from cliff jumping to snowboarding to 280 00:15:39.190 --> 00:15:42.120 exams and tests, which are really scary to kids who 281 00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:45.970 haven't done that before. And then the other one is 282 00:15:46.049 --> 00:15:49.230 something along the same lines as gas or water. What 283 00:15:49.250 --> 00:15:51.970 we use are these actions and these behaviors getting you 284 00:15:52.029 --> 00:15:53.909 closer to what you want, or is it moving you 285 00:15:53.929 --> 00:15:56.889 further away from what you want? Again, I'm not judging them, 286 00:15:57.740 --> 00:16:00.559 but there's no agency. I'm not telling them what to do. 287 00:16:00.620 --> 00:16:03.559 They get to make their own choices, but it's recognizing 288 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:06.919 that your choices are moving you closer to or further 289 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:10.799 away from what you want. And then the final thing 290 00:16:10.850 --> 00:16:13.190 that I would say resonates that we use all the 291 00:16:13.230 --> 00:16:17.029 time is positioning. And the language I use with the 292 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:20.639 kids is easy mode or hard mode. A great example 293 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:23.240 is one of my kids came home and gave me 294 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:25.639 one of his exams and he did really poorly on it. 295 00:16:25.700 --> 00:16:29.950 And I'm okay with this. Inside, I'm like tiger dad 296 00:16:30.009 --> 00:16:32.149 sort of thing. But on the outside, I think it's 297 00:16:32.190 --> 00:16:34.370 really good for the kids to experience this. And it's 298 00:16:34.409 --> 00:16:38.340 really good to fall down and stumble and recover. But 299 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.299 he hands me the test and he does what kids 300 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:42.500 do these days. And same thing I did when I 301 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:44.240 was a kid. Same thing you probably did when you 302 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:47.360 were a kid. You get a bad mark. Your parents 303 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.110 have to sign it. So you like give it to them. 304 00:16:49.669 --> 00:16:51.950 You shrug your shoulders and you're like, I did my best. 305 00:16:52.309 --> 00:16:56.549 And you keep walking. And I know from playing sports, 306 00:16:56.610 --> 00:16:58.549 I used to play high school football. I used to 307 00:16:58.590 --> 00:17:03.320 play soccer. That most people quit in the car ride 308 00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:06.579 on the way home. Not the performance on the field. 309 00:17:07.210 --> 00:17:08.529 They could have had the best game of their life. 310 00:17:08.569 --> 00:17:09.990 They could have had the worst game of their life. 311 00:17:10.049 --> 00:17:12.630 That doesn't matter. Most people quit because of the car 312 00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:14.799 ride on the way home and that conversation with the parents. 313 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:19.180 So I'm like, let's let this dissipate for a little 314 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:22.279 bit here. Let's go for a little while. And I 315 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:26.660 came back to him

later that night. And I said, 316 00:17:26.779 --> 00:17:28.890 it's 9.30. We're lying in bed. We're reading. I'm like, 317 00:17:29.170 --> 00:17:31.869 talk to me about what it means to do your best. 318 00:17:33.569 --> 00:17:36.440 You said, You did your best. I want to understand this. 319 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.069 I want to understand every step of it. So like 320 00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:43.049 go through it in detail. And he's like, really? And 321 00:17:43.069 --> 00:17:45.289 I'm like, yeah, I really want to understand when you 322 00:17:45.390 --> 00:17:46.809 come at it and you say this, I want to 323 00:17:46.849 --> 00:17:48.930 know what that means to you. So he's like, I 324 00:17:48.970 --> 00:17:51.210 sat down at 10 AM and I looked at all 325 00:17:51.230 --> 00:17:54.509 the questions and I figured out the point system and 326 00:17:54.549 --> 00:17:59.500 I allocated my time appropriately. And I answered the questions 327 00:17:59.539 --> 00:18:01.849 to the best of my ability. I was like, wow. 328 00:18:03.009 --> 00:18:05.849 You think about that the same way that a lot 329 00:18:05.890 --> 00:18:10.049 of adults think about decision making. So you think about 330 00:18:10.130 --> 00:18:13.880 it from the point that you show up to forward. 331 00:18:14.380 --> 00:18:16.119 How do I make the best choice in this moment? 332 00:18:16.779 --> 00:18:20.480 And I was like, let's rewind 72 to 96 hours. 333 00:18:21.579 --> 00:18:24.839 Like before this moment, let's go back in time. Did 334 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:31.450 you study effectively? No. Did you stay up late? Yeah. 335 00:18:32.009 --> 00:18:33.950 Why did you stay up late? Because I was cramming. 336 00:18:34.650 --> 00:18:37.789 Why were you cramming? Because I didn't study effectively. Did 337 00:18:37.809 --> 00:18:41.059 you have a healthy breakfast that morning? No, I ate 338 00:18:41.130 --> 00:18:43.200 crap because I was in a rush. Why were you 339 00:18:43.220 --> 00:18:44.920 in a rush? Because I got up late. Why were 340 00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:47.779 you late? Because I was cramming the night before. Did 341 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:49.700 you get into a fight with your brother? Yes. Why 342 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:51.859 did you get into a fight with your brother? Because 343 00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:54.289 I was up late. I was agitated. I was like, oh. 344 00:18:54.450 --> 00:18:57.670 So when you sat down to do that test, were 345 00:18:57.710 --> 00:19:01.900 you at your best? No. You are playing on hard mode. 346 00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:04.940 All the things we just talked about, everything that we 347 00:19:05.420 --> 00:19:11.089 just mentioned is 100% within your control. Now, that doesn't 348 00:19:11.910 --> 00:19:14.990 mean you do all that and you're always going to win. 349 00:19:15.930 --> 00:19:18.250 But doing all that puts you on easy mode. And 350 00:19:18.349 --> 00:19:20.549 so in the book, I talk about the idea of positioning. 351 00:19:20.609

--> 00:19:22.549 And that's sort of like the adult version of this. 352 00:19:22.990 --> 00:19:25.079 How do we position ourselves so our life is on 353 00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:27.029 easy mode? Doesn't mean we're not going to get angry. 354 00:19:27.289 --> 00:19:30.390 Doesn't mean we're not going to have emotions. Doesn't mean 355 00:19:30.430 --> 00:19:33.200 the world's not going to kick our butt sometimes. However, 356 00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:37.079 if we put ourselves on easy mode, we're always going 357 00:19:37.099 --> 00:19:38.759 to make the best choices possible. We're going to have 358 00:19:38.779 --> 00:19:41.059 more choices to make, and we're only going to have 359 00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:43.400 good choices to make. It's like every decision when you're 360 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.849 on easy mode is a good decision. And when you're 361 00:19:45.890 --> 00:19:48.109 on hard mode, it doesn't matter what you do. Every 362 00:19:48.150 --> 00:19:49.890 decision makes everything so much harder. 363 00:19:50.089 --> 00:19:54.200 It feels like, for example, a big keynote speech I 364 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.420 think the greatest speakers make it look like they're on 365 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.299 easy mode because of the hard stuff they're willing to 366 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.799 do leading up to that moment. So the decisions they 367 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.920 make as far as preparation and practice and rehearsal and 368 00:20:08.059 --> 00:20:12.500 studying and knowing your stuff, all that takes work. That's 369 00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:16.220 like the work behind the scenes that's hard and not 370 00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:19.359 everybody wants to do so that when they get on stage, 371 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:23.279 it looks easy. How does that relate? This hard preparation process? 372 00:20:23.809 --> 00:20:26.710 getting ready to go so that when it's time to shine, 373 00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:29.730 you're like, wow, Shane makes that look easy. He doesn't 374 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.440 even have to really think, although they don't know all 375 00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:33.759 of the work that went into it. 376 00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:36.160 And if you're really good, you don't want them to 377 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:37.880 know all the work that went into it. You want 378 00:20:37.900 --> 00:20:40.200 to have some magic around it. And that magic is 379 00:20:40.299 --> 00:20:42.259 created by the fact that you make it look so easy. 380 00:20:42.660 --> 00:20:47.400 The difference between preparation and positioning, and they're both very 381 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:50.259 similar and related concepts. I use the word positioning in 382 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.720 the book because we always We can't always tell the future. 383 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:55.809 And I don't get into this nuance with the kids, 384 00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:59.509 but with adults, I do. Preparation is, I know I 385 00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:04.190 have a

presentation coming up. So I'm going to put 386 00:21:04.230 --> 00:21:06.670 myself in the best position possible to do that. I'm 387 00:21:06.690 --> 00:21:08.950 going to prepare for the presentation. I know how to 388 00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:11.289 prepare for the presentation. I know what to do. I 389 00:21:11.309 --> 00:21:13.450 know how to rehearse myself. I know how to record myself. 390 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.299 I know what points to hit. I know what intonation 391 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:18.769 to hit. I know what to do. So I'm going 392 00:21:18.789 --> 00:21:20.349 to prepare. And if I don't prepare, I'm going to 393 00:21:20.369 --> 00:21:22.069 be on hard mode. And if I do prepare, I'm 394 00:21:22.089 --> 00:21:23.890 going to make it look easy. I'm going to knock 395 00:21:23.950 --> 00:21:24.190 it out. 396 00:21:24.130 --> 00:21:24.529 Of the park. 397 00:21:25.150 --> 00:21:28.589 Positioning is more, I don't know what the future holds. 398 00:21:28.710 --> 00:21:31.789 I'm not going to predict what the future is. I'm 399 00:21:31.829 --> 00:21:35.750 going to position myself for multiple possible futures. Often we 400 00:21:35.789 --> 00:21:38.569 make predictions about the future without even knowing we're making 401 00:21:38.630 --> 00:21:41.230 predictions because we're not really thinking about it. If we 402 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:45.039 buy a house that is bigger than we can afford 403 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:49.390 on a changing interest rate environment, but we want the 404 00:21:49.410 --> 00:21:52.670 house today, we're making an assumption that the future is 405 00:21:52.710 --> 00:21:55.680 going to look like the present and that interest rates 406 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.099 are going to stay the same. And so if the 407 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.759 interest rates change, we're ill positioned. We're not in a 408 00:22:00.779 --> 00:22:05.000 good position. So positioning is all about giving yourself optionality 409 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:07.859 in the future. So instead of trying to predict the future, 410 00:22:08.140 --> 00:22:10.329 how do I win no matter what happens in the future? 411 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:13.769 This is one of the hidden lessons. I almost wanted 412 00:22:13.809 --> 00:22:16.789 to call the chapter like the Titan's Blueprint. If you 413 00:22:16.829 --> 00:22:20.349 go back in history and you look at how sort 414 00:22:20.390 --> 00:22:24.109 of the titans of industry or people who always got ahead, 415 00:22:24.369 --> 00:22:27.529 always seemed to always be in the right place at 416 00:22:27.549 --> 00:22:30.390 the right time, the people who seemed lucky, when you 417 00:22:30.430 --> 00:22:33.599 start studying them, what you learn is they're the people 418 00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:37.019 who didn't go all in on any particular version of 419 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:40.859 the future. They're the people who were prepared for whatever happened. 420 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:42.720 They could

take advantage of it. And if you look at... 421 00:22:43.950 --> 00:22:47.730 Rockefeller or Carnegie or even Berkshire Hathaway. I mean, the 422 00:22:47.769 --> 00:22:51.259 list of examples goes on and on. What happens is 423 00:22:51.339 --> 00:22:54.779 when there's an inevitable financial panic, they're not predicting when 424 00:22:54.819 --> 00:22:57.859 the panic is, but they know there'll be financial panics 425 00:22:57.980 --> 00:23:01.470 because they used to happen every five or six years. 426 00:23:01.549 --> 00:23:03.950 Now they happen a little longer apart, but we know 427 00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:07.200 from history that they do come And when they came, 428 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:09.859 they were always able to play offense. Why were they 429 00:23:10.099 --> 00:23:12.140 able to play offense? Because they knew it would come. 430 00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:15.960 Look at Berkshire Hathaway today. They have $ 150 billion in 431 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:19.160 cash on their balance sheet. If the economy takes off, 432 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.039 they win. If the economy goes into a recession, they 433 00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:26.099 can play offense. And if everything stays status quo, they 434 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.779 keep going on. No matter what happens, they win. But 435 00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:32.009 they're not predicting any sort of path into the future. 436 00:23:32.069 --> 00:23:35.319 They're just prepared for whatever happens. And you can also 437 00:23:35.380 --> 00:23:38.619 do that in our own lives by simple things like 438 00:23:38.859 --> 00:23:41.980 low debt, fixed rate debt that you can handle and 439 00:23:42.099 --> 00:23:45.960 adequately cover, saving money, saving more than you make. I mean, 440 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:49.079 those are very simple things. Sleeping, working out, these are 441 00:23:49.099 --> 00:23:52.789 things that all position us for the inevitable emotional ups 442 00:23:52.849 --> 00:23:55.670 and downs in life, the inevitable crises that come. And 443 00:23:55.769 --> 00:23:58.690 one counterintuitive one that people don't often think about is 444 00:23:58.809 --> 00:24:02.369 sort of investing in your relationship with your partner So 445 00:24:02.549 --> 00:24:05.630 if you imagine that there's a patch of grass between 446 00:24:05.829 --> 00:24:09.130 you and your partner, and every day you invest in that, 447 00:24:09.190 --> 00:24:11.539 you water that grass. And every day you don't invest 448 00:24:11.579 --> 00:24:13.440 in that grass dries out a little bit. After a 449 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:16.640 few weeks, what happens with dry grass? Any spark, including 450 00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:19.539 that dishwasher conversation, now all of a sudden it lights 451 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:22.029 a flame. And that's sort of where the gas or 452 00:24:22.069 --> 00:24:23.690 water reference came from as well. 453 00:24:24.569 --> 00:24:26.890 God, there's so much good stuff, man. There's a story

about, 454 00:24:27.029 --> 00:24:30.579 you write about the USS Benfold. one of the worst 455 00:24:30.779 --> 00:24:36.089 performing warships in the US Navy, I believe it was 1996. 456 00:24:36.089 --> 00:24:40.990 But the destiny of the USS Benfold changed, I'm going 457 00:24:41.009 --> 00:24:46.130 to mispronounce his name, the day Michael Abershoff was named commander. 458 00:24:46.789 --> 00:24:49.170 What did he do? How did he change the destiny 459 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:50.119 of that warship? 460 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:56.599 So what makes this story so spectacular and almost unbelievable, 461 00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.990 almost a work of fiction, is that he takes the 462 00:25:00.049 --> 00:25:02.609 ship that is the worst performing ship and has been 463 00:25:02.630 --> 00:25:06.130 for a long time in the US Navy. And what 464 00:25:06.170 --> 00:25:08.390 do you think, before I get into a little bit 465 00:25:08.430 --> 00:25:10.509 of the details, what do you think would happen? If 466 00:25:10.730 --> 00:25:12.339 I tell this to a friend, they'd be like, oh, 467 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.039 it changes all of his top commanders. And the same 468 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.180 thing a CEO would do when they take over an 469 00:25:18.220 --> 00:25:23.039 organization that's not functioning correctly. They would start identifying people, 470 00:25:23.369 --> 00:25:26.950 replacing them, and they'd probably be doing that very quickly. 471 00:25:26.970 --> 00:25:30.329 And That is a type of leadership style that works. 472 00:25:30.930 --> 00:25:33.789 Frank Slootman, who is on our podcast, he approaches things 473 00:25:33.829 --> 00:25:37.089 that way and he's super effective with it. But Michael Abershoff, 474 00:25:37.130 --> 00:25:39.779 he takes a different approach. And his approach, he doesn't 475 00:25:39.890 --> 00:25:43.640 change a single person. There's no turnover in the ship 476 00:25:43.859 --> 00:25:47.500 before it goes from worst to first. But his approach 477 00:25:47.579 --> 00:25:51.619 is totally different. So his approach is one of the 478 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:55.240 person closest to the problem probably has the best information 479 00:25:55.309 --> 00:26:01.049 about it. independent of rank one of there's no class 480 00:26:01.109 --> 00:26:04.650 division on the ship the officers don't get to eat 481 00:26:04.789 --> 00:26:07.009 first they get in line like everybody but he didn't 482 00:26:07.150 --> 00:26:11.059 tell everybody what to do what he did was he 483 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:13.279 just got in line and then a couple days later 484 00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:15.759 everybody kept sawing him getting in line now they're getting 485 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:18.059 in line all of a sudden and what happened to 486 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:20.400 the crew this class warfare that was going on the 487 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:25.400 ship between the officers and the enlisted no longer existed 488 00:26:25.460 -->

00:26:29.859 everybody seemed equal And all Abershoff really did, if you 489 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:31.839 think about it, if you boil down the essence of 490 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:35.619 what he did, was he saw the world through the 491 00:26:35.779 --> 00:26:39.089 eyes of his crew. So he changed his perspective from 492 00:26:39.460 --> 00:26:42.470 what he could see, and he added a different perspective, 493 00:26:42.730 --> 00:26:45.670 which is what the crew can see. And then he said, 494 00:26:45.730 --> 00:26:47.549 if I saw the world the way the crew saw it, 495 00:26:47.809 --> 00:26:51.210 I would probably be just as dysfunctional as the crew was. 496 00:26:51.269 --> 00:26:54.769 So how do I change that so that they have ownership? 497 00:26:54.829 --> 00:26:57.670 How do I change that so they feel like they're 498 00:26:57.730 --> 00:27:00.670 part of the team instead of just the people that 499 00:27:00.730 --> 00:27:04.230 do the work. And I think that's a really powerful 500 00:27:04.269 --> 00:27:07.230 message for everybody because what's really happening is if you 501 00:27:07.250 --> 00:27:10.480 think about the source of all bad decisions is blind spots. 502 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:14.400 That's the source of all cognitive biases. It's the source 503 00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:14.980 of everything. 504 00:27:15.019 --> 00:27:17.460 I want to talk about hiring. I read that you 505 00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:21.269 were hanging out with a CEO of a large public 506 00:27:21.309 --> 00:27:24.269 company and you were talking with them about hiring. And 507 00:27:24.309 --> 00:27:26.650 you said, if you could pick one trait Just one 508 00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:28.740 trait that would predict how well someone would turn out. 509 00:27:29.059 --> 00:27:31.440 What would it be? And he said, that's easy. How 510 00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:36.259 willing they are to change their mind. Why is it 511 00:27:36.299 --> 00:27:40.390 so important that we be willing to change our mind? 512 00:27:41.569 --> 00:27:44.210 Think of it this way. The people that don't change 513 00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:47.869 their mind, what has to be true for that to happen? 514 00:27:48.710 --> 00:27:50.960 It has to be that they're right all the time. 515 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:53.059 And who do we know that's right all the time? 516 00:27:53.180 --> 00:27:56.920 Almost nobody does. And so what's really happening below the 517 00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:01.319 surface here is that we're putting our energy into feeling right, 518 00:28:01.460 --> 00:28:05.319 not being right. And if you switch that around and 519 00:28:05.339 --> 00:28:08.539 you put your energy into being right and not feeling right, 520 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.900 which is simple but far from easy, then you're gonna 521 00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:14.170 change your mind a lot. When the evidence sort of 522 00:28:14.210 --> 00:28:17.549 indicates your approach isn't working, you're going to change your approach. 523 00:28:17.910 --> 00:28:22.349 And that's easy with something like math where the answers 524 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:24.670 are black and white, but it's harder with way more 525 00:28:24.710 --> 00:28:28.549 subjective things like opinions or assumptions, or especially things that 526 00:28:28.589 --> 00:28:33.009 you can't see. Feelings, on the other hand, when you 527 00:28:33.130 --> 00:28:36.609 want to feel right, what you're really doing is you're 528 00:28:36.690 --> 00:28:39.990 thinking you're an exception. So it's like we know the 529 00:28:40.029 --> 00:28:44.420 path to financial independence. It's save more money than you make, 530 00:28:44.500 --> 00:28:46.849 invest it in a low cost index fund and wait 531 00:28:46.869 --> 00:28:49.609 a really long period of time. We know that is 532 00:28:49.789 --> 00:28:52.730 as close to a guaranteed get rich formula as we 533 00:28:52.789 --> 00:28:55.390 are ever going to have. And yet, how many people 534 00:28:55.509 --> 00:28:59.650 follow that path? Very few. Why? Because it's boring. They 535 00:28:59.690 --> 00:29:02.230 think they're an exception. They want to get there quicker. 536 00:29:02.890 --> 00:29:05.880 And so they go after get rich quick schemes that 537 00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:10.140 promise the outcome sooner. And when it inevitably fails, which 538 00:29:10.180 --> 00:29:13.210 it does, it always does, what tends to happen is 539 00:29:13.289 --> 00:29:15.509 that rather than tell yourself you made a mistake and 540 00:29:15.549 --> 00:29:17.609 chalk it up to the... What we do is we 541 00:29:17.670 --> 00:29:20.789 say the world didn't work the way that it should. 542 00:29:21.309 --> 00:29:25.990 And that's really interesting because should becomes a form of bargaining. 543 00:29:26.349 --> 00:29:28.809 You're bargaining with the world. The world is telling you 544 00:29:28.869 --> 00:29:30.849 how it works. You know how it works. There's these 545 00:29:30.930 --> 00:29:34.950 general principles that you can follow, but we don't follow them. 546 00:29:35.069 --> 00:29:37.130 And why don't we follow them? Because we think it 547 00:29:37.289 --> 00:29:39.630 should work in another way. We think we're the exception. 548 00:29:39.750 --> 00:29:42.720 Another example is health. How many people do we know 549 00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:45.000 that get too little sleep? They drink too much. They 550 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:50.109 eat an incredible amount of overly processed food. They don't 551 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:55.670 exercise at all. And everybody knows health is important. It's 552 00:29:55.730 --> 00:29:59.079 a general principle of life. And at some level, these 553 00:29:59.140 --> 00:30:03.829 people think that they're the exception to it. And acceptance, 554 00:30:04.289 --> 00:30:07.450 if you think of it as acceptance, is knowing that 555 00:30:07.990 --> 00:30:10.609 you must care for your health because it's the foundation 556 00:30:10.690 --> 00:30:14.730

for everything else. Without your health, everything multiplies by zero. 557 00:30:15.509 --> 00:30:17.230 And so we just want to believe that we're the 558 00:30:17.269 --> 00:30:20.230 exception because it's the easy path. But the best people 559 00:30:20.269 --> 00:30:23.869 in the world tend to put their ego into being right, 560 00:30:24.170 --> 00:30:27.130 not feeling right. And there's a huge difference between that. 561 00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:29.250 And I sort of encapsulate that in the statement in 562 00:30:29.269 --> 00:30:32.950 the book saying outcome over ego. But what you're really 563 00:30:32.990 --> 00:30:35.650 doing is you're wrapping your ego up in the outcome, 564 00:30:35.970 --> 00:30:37.849 not how you feel about your beliefs. 565 00:30:40.329 --> 00:30:43.190 I think you've probably done a great job of surrounding 566 00:30:43.230 --> 00:30:46.960 yourself with exceptional people. And I like this distinction when 567 00:30:46.980 --> 00:30:50.880 it comes to feedback, because I think like my foxhole 568 00:30:50.900 --> 00:30:53.059 guys and the people I'm closest to, the ones, my 569 00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:55.619 kitchen cabinet, ones who can provide me like with the 570 00:30:55.660 --> 00:31:00.099 difference between kind versus nice feedback. I think this is 571 00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:02.819 page 47. And you say like, we ask people for 572 00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:06.269 feedback and people are nice, but they're not kind. Can 573 00:31:06.289 --> 00:31:10.410 you tell me the difference between nice and kind feedback? 574 00:31:11.529 --> 00:31:13.849 A kind person will tell you, you have spinach on 575 00:31:13.890 --> 00:31:18.509 your teeth. A nice person won't. And that's an easy example. 576 00:31:18.589 --> 00:31:22.059 Here's one that applies to everybody listening to this. At 577 00:31:23.490 --> 00:31:27.779 Every single person here has one thing that's holding them 578 00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:32.579 back at work. And who has told you that one 579 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:35.859 thing that's holding you back? It would be very kind 580 00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:37.809 of somebody to tell you what's getting in the way 581 00:31:37.829 --> 00:31:42.049 because you can't see it. Your perspective is only your perspective. 582 00:31:42.069 --> 00:31:44.910 You need an outside perspective to see what's holding you back. 583 00:31:45.589 --> 00:31:48.329 And nobody will tell you what's holding you back because 584 00:31:48.369 --> 00:31:51.940 they're being nice. If they were being kind, they'd walk 585 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:54.740 up to you and say, hey, Ryan, I love you, man. 586 00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:57.740 I really want you to be successful. I see this 587 00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:00.079 thing you're doing and I think it's holding you back 588 00:32:00.220 --> 00:32:02.059 and you can't see it. So I want to share 589 00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:04.759 that with you. And that's exactly what they would do 590 00:32:04.960 -->

00:32:07.380 if they were being kind because they want you to win. 591 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:10.539 Why is this so hard? 592 00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:15.529 That in that particular example, it's hard for two reasons. One, 593 00:32:15.740 --> 00:32:19.250 it's hard because we're not used to telling people uncomfortable 594 00:32:19.470 --> 00:32:23.150 feedback that is kind and because it makes us feel 595 00:32:23.190 --> 00:32:25.049 not nice. We're brought up to say, if you can't 596 00:32:25.089 --> 00:32:27.750 say anything nice, don't say anything at all. That excludes 597 00:32:27.829 --> 00:32:30.369 being kind. I was fortunate enough to be able to 598 00:32:30.410 --> 00:32:33.250 work with people who didn't have that sort of upbringing 599 00:32:33.809 --> 00:32:35.750 and would tell me exactly what I was doing that 600 00:32:35.789 --> 00:32:38.160 bothered them, what I was doing. Now, that doesn't mean 601 00:32:38.180 --> 00:32:40.480 they were always right, but they would tell me, hey, 602 00:32:40.539 --> 00:32:42.019 I don't want to work with you. You can't do 603 00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:45.700 this thing. And that was not very nice, but it 604 00:32:45.740 --> 00:32:48.960 was actually pretty kind. Your excuses don't matter. You have 605 00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:51.549 to do the job. You're in an operational role. It 606 00:32:51.589 --> 00:32:54.279 doesn't matter. Nothing matters. You have to figure this out. 607 00:32:55.259 --> 00:32:57.019 And I think that we can adopt a little bit 608 00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:59.059 of that. We can sort of take that approach with 609 00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:01.980 the people that we care most about because we're secure 610 00:33:02.019 --> 00:33:05.279 in our relationship. We're intimate in our relationship and we 611 00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:07.660 want people to win. And if all those things are 612 00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:10.450 true and we approach it as if those things are true, 613 00:33:10.829 --> 00:33:12.529 and we're going to be working with this person for 614 00:33:12.549 --> 00:33:14.710 a long time, then it's easy to give nice feedback. 615 00:33:15.309 --> 00:33:17.890 At work, it's a little harder because we tend to 616 00:33:17.950 --> 00:33:22.460 judge ourselves our success, our identity as relative to other people. 617 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:26.339 So I want Ryan to be successful, but not that 618 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:29.470 much more successful than me. And that's another thing that 619 00:33:29.490 --> 00:33:31.990 sort of holds me back from saying that is because 620 00:33:32.509 --> 00:33:34.809 if I know the thing that's actually holding you back, 621 00:33:35.170 --> 00:33:36.630 I don't really want to tell you because it might 622 00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:39.210 mean that you leapfrog me. But if I tell you, 623 00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:44.039 and this comes to your reciprocation, And I'll come back 624 00:33:44.059 --> 00:33:46.019 to that in a second. You'll tell me what's holding 625 00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:48.069 me back. And now what are we doing? Instead of 626 00:33:48.150 --> 00:33:51.569 dividing the pie, we're growing the pie. And the world 627 00:33:51.650 --> 00:33:53.950 is such a better place if we focus on growing 628 00:33:53.990 --> 00:33:57.130 the pie instead of like dividing all the pieces. Because 629 00:33:57.150 --> 00:33:59.750 when we're growing it, there can be enough for everybody. 630 00:33:59.769 --> 00:34:02.240 And when we're dividing it, I can never have enough. 631 00:34:03.099 --> 00:34:07.519 And I think that's such a powerful behavioral algorithm to life. 632 00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:11.440 And you can encapsulate that into going positive and going first. 633 00:34:11.869 --> 00:34:14.170 If I walk down the street and I smile at people, 634 00:34:15.090 --> 00:34:16.650 what are people going to do? They're going to smile 635 00:34:16.690 --> 00:34:18.530 back at me. If I walk down the street and 636 00:34:18.570 --> 00:34:20.630 I scowl at people or I look angry, they're going 637 00:34:20.650 --> 00:34:24.070 to avoid me or scowl back at me. If I'm 638 00:34:24.179 --> 00:34:26.280 kind to people at work, what are they going to do? 639 00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.099 They're going to be kind back to me. If I 640 00:34:28.139 --> 00:34:30.559 go out of my way to help you be successful, 641 00:34:30.900 --> 00:34:32.500 what are you going to do? You're going to go 642 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:34.659 out of your way to help me be successful. This 643 00:34:34.739 --> 00:34:40.360 is Newton's third law applied to human relationships. For every action, 644 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:44.539 there's an equal and opposite reaction. And it's the most 645 00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:48.579 powerful behavioral force in the world. What most people do 646 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.739 is they sit around, they wait for other people to 647 00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:56.199 recognize their potential. And they're like, look, my boss could 648 00:34:56.260 --> 00:34:58.280 just see what I could do. And what are they 649 00:34:58.340 --> 00:35:01.570 not doing? You need to start this. That's why go positive, 650 00:35:01.590 --> 00:35:04.980 go first matters. And you have to do it consistently. 651 00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:07.110 You can't just do it once and expect people to 652 00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:10.909 recognize it. But if you're consistently looking out for other people, 653 00:35:10.949 --> 00:35:14.250 if you're consistently being win in all your interactions, if 654 00:35:14.269 --> 00:35:18.429 you're consistently helping other people be successful, I've never seen 655 00:35:18.469 --> 00:35:21.050 a person in my entire life who does those things 656 00:35:21.489 --> 00:35:23.719 who is not incredibly successful themselves. 657 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:27.219 Think about people you'd want on your team. I want 658 00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:29.480 the kind people on my team. I want to work 659 00:35:29.519 -->

00:35:32.719 with kind people, the ones who are willing to and 660 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:35.900 in some cases have the guts to really tell me, like, 661 00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:39.119 I crave, my background's also in sports. Shane played in 662 00:35:39.139 --> 00:35:41.199 high school, college, and a little bit after college football. 663 00:35:41.219 --> 00:35:43.239 I played quarterback, which is a position where you get 664 00:35:43.300 --> 00:35:46.460 tons of feedback. And so once you leave that world, 665 00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:51.440 the tough thing is you stop getting the play-by-play feedback, 666 00:35:51.940 --> 00:35:54.699 and I miss it. I still crave it and want it. 667 00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:58.239 And so when I find the kind people, the ones 668 00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:02.179 willing to give the tough feedback, I They're as valuable 669 00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:03.800 to me as anybody in the world. And I want 670 00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:05.940 to try to do the same thing for them and others. 671 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.880 But I really liked that distinction between being nice, which 672 00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:13.320 I think is the easy path, and being kind, which 673 00:36:13.409 --> 00:36:19.829 is the unselfish, probably harder path. But you're such a 674 00:36:20.050 --> 00:36:23.190 much more valuable person to be in people's lives and 675 00:36:23.210 --> 00:36:25.880 then them for you if you're willing to choose to 676 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:27.239 be kind over nice. 677 00:36:28.590 --> 00:36:31.309 So what have we just hit on in two separate subjects, right? 678 00:36:31.369 --> 00:36:32.969 So we hit on this here and we hit on 679 00:36:33.010 --> 00:36:35.869 it with sort of alignment in the world with the 680 00:36:35.929 --> 00:36:38.550 difference between being right and feeling right. And now we've 681 00:36:38.590 --> 00:36:42.110 hit on it here again, which is we tend to 682 00:36:42.190 --> 00:36:47.409 default to whatever is first order easy, even if it's 683 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.119 first order positive, even if it's second order negative. What 684 00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:54.639 we don't do is we don't do the first order negative, second, third, 685 00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:57.889 fourth order positive thing. We don't choose the hard path. 686 00:36:57.929 --> 00:37:01.429 We always tend to default to the path of least resistance. 687 00:37:01.889 --> 00:37:04.230 So it's really important for us to think through to 688 00:37:04.690 --> 00:37:07.690 at least the second level of what we're doing. And 689 00:37:07.730 --> 00:37:10.179 if we think through to the second level of what 690 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:12.679 we're doing, not just the first level, we can start 691 00:37:12.699 --> 00:37:14.739 to see the consequences of these choices. 692 00:37:16.739 --> 00:37:20.039 I love this quote that you wrote. Champions don't create 693 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:26.610 the standards of excellence. The standards of excellence create success. champions. 694 00:37:26.750 --> 00:37:28.750 Can you expand on that? Yeah. 695 00:37:28.769 --> 00:37:31.670 So that was a play inspired by something Bill Walsh 696 00:37:31.710 --> 00:37:34.690 had said, and he said something quite different, but similar 697 00:37:34.789 --> 00:37:37.889 sort of impact to it. And I think that so 698 00:37:38.070 --> 00:37:43.750 often we just let people slide with low standards, but 699 00:37:43.769 --> 00:37:47.130 you come in and you're hung over and, oh, you're 700 00:37:47.150 --> 00:37:49.570 going to have a bad day. Okay. That's okay. It's like, oh, 701 00:37:49.590 --> 00:37:52.090 we're all human and we do this. But if you 702 00:37:52.139 --> 00:37:55.659 look at the very best, the people who win the championships, 703 00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:59.099 those teams, if you're inside them, I've been inside these teams, 704 00:37:59.139 --> 00:38:01.480 I've been in the locker rooms, I've talked to these teams. 705 00:38:01.659 --> 00:38:06.139 If you showed up hungover to a practice with Michael Jordan, 706 00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:09.739 he would eat you alive and he would do it 707 00:38:09.820 --> 00:38:11.750 publicly and he would do it in front of other 708 00:38:11.789 --> 00:38:15.789 people and you would feel so ashamed and so embarrassed 709 00:38:16.409 --> 00:38:19.710 that you would never ever do it again. If you 710 00:38:19.769 --> 00:38:22.889 showed up to a practice with Kobe Bryant and you 711 00:38:22.929 --> 00:38:27.260 didn't put in 100% effort, he would do the exact 712 00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.360 same thing to you. And yet we do this thing 713 00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:36.239 at work where somehow it's not kind to hold, it's 714 00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:39.599 not nice to hold people to these high standards. And 715 00:38:40.340 --> 00:38:42.610 it's actually very kind to hold people to high standards 716 00:38:42.670 --> 00:38:46.190 because I know what you're capable of, Ryan. This is 717 00:38:46.230 --> 00:38:48.889 a shitty draft. Why are you giving this to me? 718 00:38:49.269 --> 00:38:53.090 You can do better than this. And If we work 719 00:38:53.170 --> 00:38:55.949 for somebody exceptional, if we play on a team with 720 00:38:55.989 --> 00:38:59.170 Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant, if we go work for 721 00:38:59.530 --> 00:39:04.309 somebody who is an outlier, I guarantee you they have 722 00:39:04.389 --> 00:39:07.869 higher standards than average of themselves and of the people 723 00:39:07.909 --> 00:39:10.889 they work closest with. If you're fortunate enough to work 724 00:39:10.929 --> 00:39:15.130 with people who are at this level, you will adopt 725 00:39:15.170 --> 00:39:18.510 those standards as natural. At first, they'll seem sort of 726 00:39:18.550 --> 00:39:21.820 like crazy to you. Like how can somebody hold themselves 727 00:39:21.860 --> 00:39:25.099 to the standard? But if you work with them for three, six, 728 00:39:25.159 -->

00:39:27.590 nine months, all of a sudden those standards become your 729 00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:30.909 baseline and you're going to go far and you're going 730 00:39:30.929 --> 00:39:34.739 to go fast. And if you are not fortunate enough 731 00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:37.960 to work with these people, you can adopt the standards 732 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:40.800 of the best in history. You can sort of make 733 00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:43.679 your own personal board of directors. You can put people 734 00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:48.449 in your life that have higher standards. just because we 735 00:39:48.489 --> 00:39:51.219 adopt the standards of the lifestyle that we're born into. 736 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:54.500 And that's luck. We have these unwritten rules that we 737 00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:57.900 inherit from our parents, including ceilings, including habits, including all 738 00:39:57.940 --> 00:40:00.860 this stuff. But at some point, you take control of 739 00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:04.519 your life. You take control of your trajectory. And if 740 00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:08.260 you don't change your standards, you're going to end up 741 00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:10.619 exactly where your parents ended up. And that's not a 742 00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:13.519 bad thing. There's no judgment involved in that. But if 743 00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:16.300 you want something different than that outcome, and you want 744 00:40:16.340 --> 00:40:20.059 to be better, way better, whatever it is, then you 745 00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:22.480 have to change it. Because if you do what everybody 746 00:40:22.539 --> 00:40:24.800 else is doing, you're going to get the same results 747 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.559 everybody else gets. One of the best things that you 748 00:40:27.579 --> 00:40:29.940 can do is start to hold yourself to higher standards. 749 00:40:30.659 --> 00:40:33.170 I'll listen to this episode afterwards and I'll be like, 750 00:40:33.329 --> 00:40:35.329 oh man, I should have said this, or I got 751 00:40:35.369 --> 00:40:38.309 confused here. Why didn't I pause for a second before 752 00:40:38.369 --> 00:40:40.570 I spoke? And that's how we get better. 753 00:40:42.369 --> 00:40:45.809 I remember when I had Michael Youseem on this podcast, Shane, 754 00:40:46.389 --> 00:40:48.469 And he was talking about Gene Kranz. And one of 755 00:40:48.570 --> 00:40:50.929 the best quotes when it comes to these high standards 756 00:40:51.469 --> 00:40:55.670 is this. He said, expecting high performance is a prerequisite 757 00:40:56.070 --> 00:40:59.309 to which achievement among those who work with you. Your 758 00:40:59.409 --> 00:41:04.619 high standards and optimistic anticipations will not guarantee a favorable outcome, 759 00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:09.579 but their absence will surely create the opposite. I think 760 00:41:09.659 --> 00:41:11.840 as leaders, this is our duty. This is something we 761 00:41:11.900 --> 00:41:15.219 have to do if we care. We care about

our mission, 762 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:18.090 if we care about our people, I think it's on us. 763 00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:20.710 When I think about my favorite coaches, my favorite teachers, 764 00:41:20.769 --> 00:41:24.449 my favorite leaders that have impacted me, this is what 765 00:41:24.510 --> 00:41:29.150 they did. They expected high performance. They expected me to 766 00:41:29.190 --> 00:41:31.469 perform at a level that I didn't even think I 767 00:41:31.510 --> 00:41:34.119 was capable of, and they got it. They got it 768 00:41:34.219 --> 00:41:38.039 out of me. That's leadership. That expectation, that setting of 769 00:41:38.059 --> 00:41:40.480 the standard, those are the people we want. Those are 770 00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:43.260 the ones who make a difference. 100%. 771 00:41:43.260 --> 00:41:45.699 And if you think about it, we naturally have high 772 00:41:45.739 --> 00:41:49.119 standards for things we care about. Yeah. If you're building 773 00:41:49.139 --> 00:41:50.829 a house, you have a high standard for the cost 774 00:41:50.889 --> 00:41:52.789 of it. Why could you care about it? Why do 775 00:41:52.809 --> 00:41:55.050 you care about it there, but not at work? Is 776 00:41:55.110 --> 00:41:57.030 it that you don't care about work or is that 777 00:41:57.250 --> 00:41:59.230 I'm letting you get away with it, right? And we just, 778 00:41:59.449 --> 00:42:01.880 we do tend to act like teenagers. We do what 779 00:42:01.889 --> 00:42:04.440 we can get away with. And so calling people out 780 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:10.559 on it in a polite, kind way. And what I 781 00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:13.480 mean by that is, There's a difference between calling somebody 782 00:42:13.659 --> 00:42:15.800 out and being an asshole about it, beating them over 783 00:42:15.860 --> 00:42:18.300 a head with a newspaper like Michael Jordan might have. 784 00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:20.739 And that might win championships. That's not how I want 785 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:23.980 to act, but you can still call people out and 786 00:42:24.019 --> 00:42:26.429 you approach the conversation. And a lot of people are like, 787 00:42:26.469 --> 00:42:28.610 how do I approach this? Approach it the same way 788 00:42:28.650 --> 00:42:31.309 that you would approach your partner. And so your default 789 00:42:31.429 --> 00:42:34.630 going into that is I love you. And it doesn't 790 00:42:34.650 --> 00:42:37.590 have to be a love like a romantic love. It's like, 791 00:42:37.909 --> 00:42:39.650 I love working with you. I want the best for you. 792 00:42:40.269 --> 00:42:42.889 And I'm going to be working with you for 20 years. 793 00:42:42.989 --> 00:42:45.570 And that part is super important. Because if I think 794 00:42:45.699 --> 00:42:47.800 I'm going to be working with you for 20 years, 795 00:42:47.900 --> 00:42:51.900 I'm going to approach that conversation much differently than if 796 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:54.300 I think I'm going to be gone after a year 797 00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:56.059 or you're going to be gone after a year, because 798 00:42:56.099 --> 00:42:59.019 then I can get away with some bad stuff. And 799 00:42:59.099 --> 00:43:01.599 we don't want to get our brain into that circumstance. 800 00:43:01.739 --> 00:43:04.219 If you change your timeline, you eliminate a lot of 801 00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:08.250 poor behavior. Think long-term, you need win. That doesn't mean 802 00:43:08.289 --> 00:43:10.989 you don't have a tough conversation. but it changes how 803 00:43:11.030 --> 00:43:14.050 you approach that conversation. Ryan, I really want you to win. 804 00:43:14.809 --> 00:43:17.389 I really want you to be successful. I really want 805 00:43:17.409 --> 00:43:19.710 to be here with you. But the quality of work 806 00:43:19.750 --> 00:43:22.090 that you're doing right now is not up to what 807 00:43:22.190 --> 00:43:24.530 I know you're capable of. I don't know if there's 808 00:43:24.550 --> 00:43:26.949 something in the way that I can help with, but 809 00:43:26.989 --> 00:43:29.550 this isn't acceptable. This isn't the standard we have here. 810 00:43:30.429 --> 00:43:32.590 And I use this language with the kids all the time. 811 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:36.300 This isn't the standard our family has. Did you study? 812 00:43:36.860 --> 00:43:39.170 And then I'll ask them, Did you study up to 813 00:43:39.570 --> 00:43:43.610 our standard? And that puts an emphasis on the fact 814 00:43:43.650 --> 00:43:48.190 that our standard is higher and our standard for working 815 00:43:48.210 --> 00:43:50.929 hard and our standard for doing good deeds and our 816 00:43:50.969 --> 00:43:54.369 standard for giving back to the community and our standard 817 00:43:54.449 --> 00:43:57.110 for being good people is higher than other people's. I 818 00:43:57.139 --> 00:43:59.980 don't care what other people's standard are. I care about 819 00:44:00.139 --> 00:44:02.679 our standards as a family. I care about your standards 820 00:44:02.699 --> 00:44:05.880 for yourself because other people aren't always going to be 821 00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:08.530 there to hold you to a high standard. And you 822 00:44:08.570 --> 00:44:10.909 have to hold yourself to that standard. You have to 823 00:44:10.949 --> 00:44:13.489 be capable in those moments where I failed when I 824 00:44:13.530 --> 00:44:17.690 was 13 to hold myself to that standard. And you 825 00:44:17.730 --> 00:44:20.199 have to be able to do that on your own 826 00:44:20.530 --> 00:44:23.599 when nobody's watching. And if you can do that, you 827 00:44:23.619 --> 00:44:24.239 will be great. 828 00:44:25.539 --> 00:44:27.820 It makes me think, Shane, of one of my favorite 829 00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:31.820 posts you've written on FarnhamStreetFS.blog. And there's a lot of 830 00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:34.320 Buffett stuff and Munger stuff, which is there's just a 831 00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:37.119 treasure trove. But I'd love for you to expand on

832 00:44:37.139 --> 00:44:39.840 this quote when it comes to the two scorecards that 833 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:42.440 Warren Buffett writes about. Here it is. The big question 834 00:44:42.460 --> 00:44:46.079 about how people behave is whether they've got an inner 835 00:44:46.139 --> 00:44:51.179 scorecard or an outer scorecard. It helps if you can 836 00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:54.920 be satisfied with an inner scorecard. What does that mean 837 00:44:54.940 --> 00:44:55.199 to you? 838 00:44:57.860 --> 00:45:02.119 If we let society dictate what we go after, money, power, fame, 839 00:45:02.300 --> 00:45:05.309 and yet we know– I know– a lot of people 840 00:45:05.329 --> 00:45:07.469 who've achieved all those things. And we all know a 841 00:45:07.530 --> 00:45:11.269 fictional character, Ebenezer Scrooge, who achieved all of those things. 842 00:45:12.269 --> 00:45:15.159 And what they all want, including the real life people 843 00:45:15.219 --> 00:45:18.420 I know, is they want a do-over. And it usually 844 00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:23.079 dawns on them somewhere between 50 and 70. And they 845 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:28.139 realized that those things weren't worth chasing. And if you 846 00:45:28.179 --> 00:45:31.429 go look, there's a great book by Karl Pilmer called 847 00:45:31.469 --> 00:45:34.119 Lessons for the Living, I think. What he did was 848 00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:37.480 he went around and he interviewed people near the end 849 00:45:37.500 --> 00:45:40.909 of their life. He asked them what really mattered about living. 850 00:45:41.469 --> 00:45:44.869 What lessons would they like to pass to the younger generation? 851 00:45:44.989 --> 00:45:48.070 What hindsight do they have that we can make our foresight? 852 00:45:48.090 --> 00:45:52.670 It basically boiled around that. I would do my own thing. 853 00:45:52.769 --> 00:45:55.690 I would take the chance. I would write the book. 854 00:45:55.849 --> 00:45:58.590 I would go after the love. It's the things that 855 00:45:58.670 --> 00:46:02.050 you don't do that you regret. The other thing is 856 00:46:03.780 --> 00:46:06.150 They would live their own life. And what they mean 857 00:46:06.190 --> 00:46:08.409 by that when you dig into it is that they 858 00:46:08.429 --> 00:46:12.329 wouldn't chase things because other people are chasing them. When 859 00:46:12.369 --> 00:46:17.710 you're 95 and you're lying in the hospital enjoying your 860 00:46:18.309 --> 00:46:22.510 last night on this wonderful planet we have, and you're 861 00:46:22.530 --> 00:46:26.010 in a coma and everybody around you is talking about 862 00:46:26.070 --> 00:46:29.530 you and you can hear them, but they don't know 863 00:46:29.550 --> 00:46:31.369 that you can hear them. What are they going to 864 00:46:31.449 --> 00:46:33.619 say about you? They're not going to say, oh man, 865 00:46:33.639 --> 00:46:36.800 I wish he had like an extra 10,000 Twitter followers, 866 00:46:37.579 --> 00:46:40.719 or I wish he

had $ 10, 000 more in his bank account, 867 00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:44.969 or his Porsche was really nice. Or maybe they are. 868 00:46:45.050 --> 00:46:46.909 Maybe they'd say his Porsche was nice, but he was 869 00:46:46.949 --> 00:46:49.489 an asshole. What do you want them to say about you? 870 00:46:49.889 --> 00:46:53.150 You probably want them to say some version of he 871 00:46:53.190 --> 00:46:55.429 was loving. He was always there for me when I 872 00:46:55.469 --> 00:46:58.539 needed him. He was a great friend. He was a 873 00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:02.940 good parent. he was a great partner. He loved with 874 00:47:03.019 --> 00:47:05.760 all of his heart. He did these things that at 875 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:08.760 the end of the day matter a lot more than 876 00:47:09.050 --> 00:47:13.710 chasing an extra dollar or these physical material possessions that 877 00:47:13.750 --> 00:47:17.389 we all go after the status that we want. And 878 00:47:17.449 --> 00:47:19.610 I think that's it, right? So if you're driven by 879 00:47:19.630 --> 00:47:23.349 an external scorecard, somebody else is going to set the 880 00:47:23.369 --> 00:47:25.210 scoreboard for you and you're going to try to rack 881 00:47:25.269 --> 00:47:27.539 up as many points as you can. And at some point, 882 00:47:27.579 --> 00:47:30.219 you're going to realize that you've done that unconsciously. And 883 00:47:30.579 --> 00:47:32.699 this is not to say that I'm judging people who 884 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.219 do that. I actually want people to do that if 885 00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:39.000 that's what they want to do. But the difference is 886 00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:42.360 you have to be conscious about it. If you're consciously 887 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:44.719 going after money, man, go after it. Do it in 888 00:47:44.739 --> 00:47:47.360 the right way. Sell products you want to buy. Don't 889 00:47:47.409 --> 00:47:50.510 scam people. But go after it. Own it. But do 890 00:47:50.570 --> 00:47:53.690 it consciously. I am consciously choosing this. And I know 891 00:47:53.710 --> 00:47:56.090 the implications of it. I know that it means X, Y, 892 00:47:56.269 --> 00:47:58.500 and Z. And if that's not what you want, think 893 00:47:58.539 --> 00:48:01.500 about what you want. And so the book ends with 894 00:48:01.539 --> 00:48:04.599 this sort of question, which is it's one thing to 895 00:48:04.659 --> 00:48:07.739 know how to get what you want, and it's a 896 00:48:07.780 --> 00:48:11.349 completely other thing to get what's worth wanting. And I 897 00:48:11.369 --> 00:48:13.670 think we have to be conscious about both. The book 898 00:48:13.750 --> 00:48:17.510 is an instruction manual to get what you want, and 899 00:48:17.530 --> 00:48:20.019 it ends with a thought about is what you want 900 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:20.820 worth wanting. 901 00:48:23.139 --> 00:48:25.380 I love those two questions you pose. You write, if 902 00:48:25.420 --> 00:48:29.409 you want to develop good judgment, start by asking two questions. 903 00:48:29.630 --> 00:48:32.510 What do I want in life? And is what I 904 00:48:32.590 --> 00:48:36.349 want actually worth wanting? This reminds me so much when 905 00:48:36.369 --> 00:48:38.820 I asked James Clear on this podcast, I've had him 906 00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:41.719 on a few times about advice and he always gives 907 00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:44.440 me prompts instead. He always gives me questions. That's what 908 00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:47.199 this reminded me so much of, Shane, is how you 909 00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:50.909 end the book is that it's really think about these questions. 910 00:48:50.949 --> 00:48:53.150 If you're trying to develop good judgment, what do I want? 911 00:48:53.250 --> 00:48:55.409 And is what I want actually worth wanting? 912 00:48:55.590 --> 00:48:57.469 The key is just to be conscious of it. You 913 00:48:57.750 --> 00:48:59.989 don't just think about it once. What you want at 914 00:48:59.989 --> 00:49:01.630 20 is not going to be what you want at 915 00:49:01.630 --> 00:49:04.150 40 or 50 or 60 or 70. You have to 916 00:49:04.289 --> 00:49:07.989 ask yourself these questions all the time. The question is, 917 00:49:08.110 --> 00:49:11.150 am I going in the right direction? Am I moving 918 00:49:11.210 --> 00:49:14.070 towards the right place? Is that the place that I 919 00:49:14.110 --> 00:49:17.679 really want to end up? And Importantly, but nobody ever 920 00:49:17.969 --> 00:49:21.110 asks when you go after your goals, because we always 921 00:49:21.130 --> 00:49:24.170 think that the ends justify the means. But what we 922 00:49:24.230 --> 00:49:27.880 learn from living is that the means are just as important, 923 00:49:27.949 --> 00:49:31.320 if not more important than the ends. Am I going 924 00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:34.300 after it in the right way? And the right way 925 00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:37.199 for me is when the right way for me is 926 00:49:37.260 --> 00:49:41.070 with kindness. The right way for me is growing the pie. 927 00:49:41.590 --> 00:49:43.690 The right way for me is approaching things as if 928 00:49:43.710 --> 00:49:46.469 we're going to work together forever in every interaction I 929 00:49:46.489 --> 00:49:49.719 go with. That doesn't mean it always works out that way, 930 00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.659 but that's always my approach from the get-go. And that's 931 00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:55.519 what I mean by the right way. Ebenezer Scrooge got 932 00:49:55.579 --> 00:49:57.900 all the things he wanted, but what he realized was 933 00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:02.500 the way that he achieved them was mutually exclusive from 934 00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:05.530 living a life of meaning. And that's what he wanted 935 00:50:05.570 --> 00:50:06.219 to do over. 936 00:50:07.010 --> 00:50:09.230 One more question, Shane. Let's say you're meeting with somebody 937 00:50:09.269 --> 00:50:15.260 who recently graduated from university.

They're bright, thoughtful, kind, want 938 00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:17.960 to do good in the world, want to leave a 939 00:50:18.019 --> 00:50:22.039 positive dent, but they don't necessarily know what exactly they 940 00:50:22.139 --> 00:50:25.460 want to do. What are some general pieces of life 941 00:50:25.940 --> 00:50:28.519 slash career advice you'd give to that person? 942 00:50:28.539 --> 00:50:30.760 I got to ask them a question. Where are you 943 00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:36.429 most determined? You answer that question, I think, for your path. 944 00:50:37.710 --> 00:50:39.309 At what moments are you most determined? 945 00:50:40.050 --> 00:50:42.289 Did you know where you were most determined when you 946 00:50:42.309 --> 00:50:44.309 were like 23, 24-ish though? 947 00:50:45.329 --> 00:50:48.750 Totally. I mean, at that moment, I think it changes. Yeah, totally. 948 00:50:49.309 --> 00:50:52.510 I was determined to go work for an intelligence agency. 949 00:50:52.610 --> 00:50:55.380 I was determined to be really good at my job. 950 00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:59.860 I was determined to work harder than anybody else. You 951 00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:03.400 couldn't stop me. And that's the place to look. Where 952 00:51:03.500 --> 00:51:05.880 are you unstoppable? And it doesn't even have to be 953 00:51:05.900 --> 00:51:10.090 a natural talent. Because if you're unstoppable in something, you 954 00:51:10.139 --> 00:51:15.420 will eventually pass somebody who is only natural talent. So 955 00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:18.440 we often look for where we're passionate. I think we're 956 00:51:18.860 --> 00:51:22.349 asking the wrong question. Where are you curious? Where are 957 00:51:22.389 --> 00:51:26.489 you determined? The intersection of those two things, you're going 958 00:51:26.510 --> 00:51:29.170 to go places. And it might change. You might dive 959 00:51:29.250 --> 00:51:32.190 in for five years and then it's run its course. 960 00:51:32.309 --> 00:51:35.400 And that's cool, too. But I think determination is one 961 00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:38.039 of the biggest predictors of whether somebody is going to 962 00:51:38.059 --> 00:51:40.639 be successful or not. If we want to work backwards 963 00:51:40.699 --> 00:51:43.000 from that, we sort of ask, where are you most determined? 964 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:46.019 What a great question. Where are you most determined? What 965 00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:49.000 are you most curious about? And attack that. Shane, the 966 00:51:49.039 --> 00:51:53.579 book is called Clear Thinking Turning Ordinary Moments Into Extraordinary Results, 967 00:51:53.940 --> 00:51:59.489 an instant New York Times bestseller. And then I got 968 00:51:59.510 --> 00:52:03.639 to say, fs.blog.com. is something I've read it front to back. 969 00:52:03.820 --> 00:52:05.860 And I highly encourage people, if you're somehow listening to 970 00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:09.239 this and you haven't read through fs.blog, as Shane said, 971 00:52:09.260 --> 00:52:11.969 it's evergreen articles. These things will live on forever. They're timeless. 972 00:52:12.010 --> 00:52:16.489 And there's so much knowledge packed on fs.blog. So I 973 00:52:16.530 --> 00:52:19.530 highly recommend that. I really appreciate you being here today, Shane. 974 00:52:19.570 --> 00:52:21.869 This is awesome. Is there anywhere else you would send 975 00:52:21.949 --> 00:52:23.909 people to learn more about you online? 976 00:52:25.010 --> 00:52:28.050 No, I think fs.blog, sign up for the newsletter. That's 977 00:52:28.449 --> 00:52:31.090 the best way to sort of get my thinking. I 978 00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:33.469 really appreciate you, Ryan. I think that was a very 979 00:52:33.530 --> 00:52:35.510 generous way to phrase things. So thank you. 980 00:52:36.190 --> 00:52:38.369 Absolutely, man. As I told you before we started recording, 981 00:52:38.409 --> 00:52:40.150 I've been reading your stuff and listening to you for 982 00:52:40.170 --> 00:52:42.489 a long time. Glad this book is now out in 983 00:52:42.510 --> 00:52:45.710 the world. And I love to continue our dialogue as 984 00:52:45.750 --> 00:52:46.670 we both progress, man. 985 00:52:47.489 --> 00:52:49.849 Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much. Thanks, man. 986 00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:55.360 It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you 987 00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:58.579 for being a member of the end of the podcast club. 988 00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:02.179 If you are, send me a note, ryan at learningleader.com. 989 00:53:02.460 --> 00:53:04.550 Let me know what you learned from this great conversation 990 00:53:04.630 --> 00:53:08.329 with Shane Parrish. A few takeaways from my notes. One, 991 00:53:08.369 --> 00:53:13.130 the power of believing in someone. Mr. Duncan, Shane's high 992 00:53:13.190 --> 00:53:16.690 school English teacher, was the first person to tell him 993 00:53:16.750 --> 00:53:20.539 that he believed in him. He changed the trajectory of 994 00:53:20.659 --> 00:53:26.619 Shane's life. Now, we as leaders can and should do 995 00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:31.820 that for others. Let's proactively look for opportunities to tell 996 00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:34.880 people we're leading that we believe in them. Let's use 997 00:53:35.019 --> 00:53:39.679 our power for good. Next, the difference between nice and 998 00:53:39.929 --> 00:53:43.829 kind feedback. Too often, the people we ask for feedback 999 00:53:43.889 --> 00:53:48.010 are nice but not kind. Kind people will tell you 1000 00:53:48.070 --> 00:53:51.130 things a nice person will not. A kind person will 1001 00:53:51.170 --> 00:53:53.780 tell you that you have spinach in your teeth. A 1002 00:53:53.940 --> 00:53:58.590 nice person won't because it's uncomfortable. A kind person will 1003 00:53:58.630 --> 00:54:02.150 tell us what holds us back even when it's uncomfortable. 1004 00:54:02.590 --> 00:54:06.050 A nice person avoids giving us critical feedback because they're 1005 00:54:06.110 --> 00:54:09.869 worried about hurting our feelings. Let's strive to be kind 1006 00:54:10.389 --> 00:54:14.199 people as well as surround ourselves with those who are kind. 1007 00:54:14.579 --> 00:54:18.920 And the next, champions. Champions don't create the standards of excellence. 1008 00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:23.789 The standards of excellence create us. Expecting high performance is 1009 00:54:23.849 --> 00:54:27.489 a prerequisite to which achievement among those who work with you. 1010 00:54:27.789 --> 00:54:32.739 Your high standards and optimistic anticipations will not guarantee a 1011 00:54:32.780 --> 00:54:37.119 favorable outcome, but their absence will surely create the opposite. 1012 00:54:37.460 --> 00:54:41.309 Let's hold ourselves to high standards and those around us. 1013 00:54:41.389 --> 00:54:43.659 So good. Once again, I would say thank you so 1014 00:54:43.699 --> 00:54:45.440 much for continuing to spread the message and telling a 1015 00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:47.480 friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode 1016 00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:49.719 of The Learning Leader Show with Shane Parrish. I think 1017 00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:52.119 he'll help you become a more effective leader. And because 1018 00:54:52.139 --> 00:54:54.119 you continue to do that and you continue to go 1019 00:54:54.139 --> 00:54:57.969 to ryanhawk.net, which launches you into Apple Podcasts, and once 1020 00:54:57.989 --> 00:55:00.369 you're there, you write a thoughtful review and you rate 1021 00:55:00.409 --> 00:55:03.210 the show, hopefully five stars. And by doing that, you 1022 00:55:03.670 --> 00:55:06.170 are giving me the opportunity to do what I love 1023 00:55:06.210 --> 00:55:09.170 on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever 1024 00:55:09.449 --> 00:55:11.909 be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. 1025 00:55:12.150 --> 00:55:12.369 Can't wait.