364: Derek Sivers- How To Redefine Yourself, Make Big Decisions, & Live Life On Your Terms의 전체 녹취록

00:02:42.030 Hmm. 35 00:02:42.650 --> 00:02:47.400 And then a unique process to help you make better decisions. 36 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:50.259 Derek shared some interesting stories around that. And then the 37 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:55.150 power behind a daily journal and why you should do 38 00:02:55.229 --> 00:02:59.189 this right now. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is quite 39 00:02:59.250 --> 00:03:09.419 a bit different, but very interesting. It's Derek Sivers. Welcome, 40 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.169 Derek Sivers. It's great to have you here on the 41 00:03:12.210 --> 00:03:13.830 Learning Leader Show, man. I've been following your work for 42 00:03:13.889 --> 00:03:15.800 many years and I'm a big fan, so it's great 43 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:16.419 to talk with you, man. 44 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.219 Thanks, Ryan. I like your show. That's why I'm here. 45 00:03:20.379 --> 00:03:21.680 So thanks for having me. 46 00:03:21.979 --> 00:03:24.879 I remember listening. I don't remember which show actually it 47 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:27.469 was on, but I thought, who is this guy with 48 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:32.889 the soothing voice? But I was taking so many notes 49 00:03:32.990 --> 00:03:36.030 on my phone. I was pausing in the notes of 50 00:03:36.090 --> 00:03:39.210 my phone thinking, and I have to admit, I had 51 00:03:39.289 --> 00:03:41.229 not heard of you prior. It might have been Tim's show. 52 00:03:41.250 --> 00:03:42.629 I don't know. But I had not heard of you 53 00:03:42.689 --> 00:03:45.569 prior to that. And I just thought, this is maybe 54 00:03:45.650 --> 00:03:49.030 one of my favorite podcasts I've ever listened to. And 55 00:03:49.069 --> 00:03:50.430 I thought I have to talk to this guy at 56 00:03:50.449 --> 00:03:52.030 some point, but I believe that was four or five 57 00:03:52.069 --> 00:03:54.870 years ago. So it's great to finally be here, man. Yeah. 58 00:03:54.930 --> 00:03:57.900 I haven't done any podcast interviews in four or five 59 00:03:57.939 --> 00:04:01.000 years until now. So yeah, thank you. I don't, I 60 00:04:01.020 --> 00:04:02.080 don't try to be soothing. 61 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:05.599 Well, you just, you just are. So I appreciate being here, man. 62 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:09.560 I'm curious because we're both dads and I want to 63 00:04:09.580 --> 00:04:12.039 start this one a little bit different. And being a dad, 64 00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:14.939 I vividly remember, you know, you got first child being 65 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.730 born and And it's almost like I don't even remember 66 00:04:18.790 --> 00:04:21.709 life before that because of how different it is and 67 00:04:21.769 --> 00:04:26.290 how I feel personally. And I'm curious from your perspective, Derek, 68 00:04:26.829 --> 00:04:28.370 I believe you became a dad, what, seven or eight 69 00:04:28.410 --> 00:04:31.670 years ago? Is that correct? And I've read a lot 70 00:04:31.709 --> 00:04:33.629 about how you parent and we

can maybe get into 71 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:35.819 some of that. But I'm curious from you, how did 72 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:38.579 becoming a dad change your views on the world? 73 00:04:40.939 --> 00:04:45.180 That change that I hear other dads talk about is, 74 00:04:46.699 --> 00:04:49.079 I had most of that happen to me when I 75 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:55.329 started CD Baby. So, yeah, I was 29 years old 76 00:04:55.370 --> 00:04:59.370 when I started this company. But up until that point, 77 00:04:59.589 --> 00:05:02.329 everything I did in life was me, me, me, me, me. 78 00:05:03.009 --> 00:05:05.149 Like I was a musician. I was up there promoting 79 00:05:05.269 --> 00:05:08.000 my music and I was on stage singing my music 80 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:10.459 into the microphone and everything in my life was me, me, me. 81 00:05:11.389 --> 00:05:13.410 I had been around the world. I had performed a 82 00:05:13.470 --> 00:05:16.810 thousand shows. I had recorded multiple albums. I had been 83 00:05:16.829 --> 00:05:19.379 on the radio and I even bought a house with 84 00:05:19.420 --> 00:05:24.899 the money I made making music. So when I started 85 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:29.980 CD Baby, I started caring about my musician clients more 86 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:34.379 than I cared about myself. That's why I listed like 87 00:05:34.420 --> 00:05:36.879 all the things I did. It's because I had already 88 00:05:36.949 --> 00:05:41.000 had my day in the spotlight, right? So now I 89 00:05:41.060 --> 00:05:44.779 wanted them to have the spotlight, not me. And I 90 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:48.319 wanted them to get rich, not me. And then I 91 00:05:48.339 --> 00:05:53.220 had employees. Like I had 85 employees whose lives were 92 00:05:53.300 --> 00:05:56.310 somewhat dependent on me. And it was up to me 93 00:05:56.370 --> 00:05:59.290 to take care of them and pay them well and 94 00:05:59.329 --> 00:06:01.709 make sure they were happy and healthy and growing. And 95 00:06:03.089 --> 00:06:06.310 so when friends told me how having a kid changed 96 00:06:06.370 --> 00:06:08.980 their life, I think that I went through some of 97 00:06:09.019 --> 00:06:14.529 that already with starting my company. That's when life became 98 00:06:14.930 --> 00:06:21.110 not about me. So then 10 years later, when I 99 00:06:21.149 --> 00:06:25.839 had a real baby, I think the major change of 100 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:32.000 view was not that. It was more like I learned 101 00:06:32.019 --> 00:06:36.009 how to be fully present with him. that I'm usually very, 102 00:06:36.230 --> 00:06:41.430 very future-focused. My head is always in my work and 103 00:06:41.610 --> 00:06:45.120 on my future plans and towards the vision of the 104 00:06:45.149 --> 00:06:49.079 future that I'm building. But to be with my kid, 105 00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:54.439 I have to shut that all down, mentally and physically, 106 00:06:55.540 --> 00:07:00.660 and just be 100% engaged in his world and his play. 107 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:07.500 So I think the common... leadership lesson between those two 108 00:07:07.579 --> 00:07:12.980 things is to be selfless. That I think the surprise 109 00:07:13.779 --> 00:07:17.339 is that the leader follows the lead. 110 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:22.639 You also have written a lot about the fact that, 111 00:07:23.819 --> 00:07:26.579 and all parents can relate to this, where you'll go 112 00:07:26.620 --> 00:07:29.230 to the park or you'll take your kids somewhere in 113 00:07:29.290 --> 00:07:32.170 nature or even playing outside. I was doing this recently 114 00:07:32.189 --> 00:07:35.949 with my daughter on the trampoline. And after 30 minutes 115 00:07:36.189 --> 00:07:39.170 or 40 minutes, I'm just exhausted. I'm tired. And you've 116 00:07:39.189 --> 00:07:41.189 written about the fact that sometimes you guys will play 117 00:07:41.250 --> 00:07:46.430 outside for five hours exploring. And partially, and I'm curious 118 00:07:46.470 --> 00:07:49.589 of one, how you have built up the energy. And two, 119 00:07:51.310 --> 00:07:55.310 you're never the parent it sounds like that says, come on, son, 120 00:07:55.370 --> 00:07:57.310 we're going to go home. You want to let him 121 00:07:57.350 --> 00:08:00.930 explore until he's finished exploring. And I'm curious your mindset 122 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:06.779 towards that. promoting and nurturing that exploration in your child? Sure. 123 00:08:06.939 --> 00:08:10.139 Well, for one, it really helped that I raised him 124 00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:12.819 in New Zealand, right? Like we just moved to England 125 00:08:13.430 --> 00:08:15.910 a year ago, but the first seven years of his 126 00:08:15.970 --> 00:08:21.850 life were in gorgeous, breathtaking New Zealand. So if I'm 127 00:08:21.930 --> 00:08:26.629 somewhere stunning and like, OMFG gorgeous, and my kid is 128 00:08:26.670 --> 00:08:29.350 sitting there playing with a stick, well, yeah, I could 129 00:08:29.370 --> 00:08:31.360 just hang out there and just look at the world 130 00:08:31.420 --> 00:08:35.779 for five hours. I found that when we are trapped 131 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.620 inside on a rainy day, it's hard to sit on 132 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:43.039 the living room carpet for five hours. So it's not 133 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:48.049 like I have this master Zen patience. It's just, it 134 00:08:48.090 --> 00:08:51.250 really helped that I would usually take us somewhere gorgeous 135 00:08:51.350 --> 00:08:54.809 to go play. So that helps. But I did notice 136 00:08:54.929 --> 00:09:00.490 that adults are always looking for big, amazing superlatives, right? 137 00:09:00.509 --> 00:09:05.710 I would say like, let me take you to some distant, 138 00:09:05.929 --> 00:09:09.330 amazing thing I'm going to show you. But kids are 139 00:09:09.370 --> 00:09:12.769 happy with the tiny details. So what I mean is like, 140 00:09:14.139 --> 00:09:16.200 in New Zealand, we would drive many hours to

get 141 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:20.820 to the most amazing view, or the best forest or 142 00:09:20.899 --> 00:09:25.590 some fascinating rock formation. And sometimes we'd even drive overnight 143 00:09:25.629 --> 00:09:28.379 to get there. And then we'd arrive, and he would 144 00:09:28.419 --> 00:09:31.360 just prefer to play with the dead log full of 145 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.759 bugs that was right at the trail entrance. I'm like, no, 146 00:09:33.779 --> 00:09:36.269 come on, come on. This is just the entrance. Come on, 147 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:38.080 let's go up to the peak. We're going to be 148 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:40.450 able to see everything. He's like, no, Dad, look at 149 00:09:40.470 --> 00:09:45.250 these bugs. And so many times we would never even 150 00:09:45.370 --> 00:09:47.809 get to the big amazing thing that I intended to 151 00:09:48.009 --> 00:09:53.919 see because we just play all day long. thing that 152 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:57.470 he was fascinated with. So after doing this eight or 153 00:09:57.509 --> 00:10:00.919 nine times, I finally decided to stop waiting the hours 154 00:10:01.700 --> 00:10:05.500 driving to amazing things. And instead, we just learned to 155 00:10:05.539 --> 00:10:08.600 have a blast, or I learned how to have a 156 00:10:08.659 --> 00:10:13.059 blast in the local forest that's just five minutes away. 157 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:17.320 So the lesson learned is that you don't need amazing 158 00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:21.149 things to play. You know, you got some sticks, some leaves, 159 00:10:21.450 --> 00:10:26.549 a cardboard box, some weird discarded trash. He can have 160 00:10:26.710 --> 00:10:32.230 more fun with these things than any, like, official toys. 161 00:10:32.970 --> 00:10:35.559 In fact, put another way, if you buy your kid 162 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.860 a toy, they'll probably have more fun with the box 163 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:39.480 it came in. 164 00:10:39.500 --> 00:10:44.450 We all know that experience, uh. At holidays, not Christmas, 165 00:10:44.490 --> 00:10:47.110 they're opening up and playing with the box. It's hilarious. 166 00:10:48.830 --> 00:10:50.909 You mentioned you lived in New Zealand for a while. 167 00:10:50.929 --> 00:10:53.500 I know you've lived all over the world and now 168 00:10:53.529 --> 00:10:58.860 you live in Oxford, England. And when I think about that, 169 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:02.419 as someone who's born and raised in the United States 170 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:05.039 and lived primarily the bulk of my life in the Midwest, 171 00:11:05.620 --> 00:11:08.919 I hear that and think, wow, that's amazing. And I 172 00:11:08.980 --> 00:11:11.100 wonder how somebody does that. But I want to expand 173 00:11:11.139 --> 00:11:15.139 out even more and and think of the broader topic 174 00:11:15.340 --> 00:11:18.059 of making decisions. Because, Derek, there are a lot of 175 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:20.659 people listening who have to make a wide variety of 176 00:11:20.710 --> 00:11:25.210 decisions of, okay, do I change careers, go for this job, 177 00:11:25.250 --> 00:11:29.409 do I move across the country for something, who am 178 00:11:29.450 --> 00:11:33.149 I going to marry, right, where to live. So if 179 00:11:33.169 --> 00:11:35.210 we zoom out a little bit, could you share a 180 00:11:35.269 --> 00:11:37.500 bit about, and maybe if you want to use the 181 00:11:37.539 --> 00:11:40.019 moving of where you're living as one of the examples, 182 00:11:40.059 --> 00:11:42.539 but zoom out a bit first, to talk about how 183 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:43.820 you make big decisions. 184 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:52.490 Sure. Um, later let's get into values cause that's a huge, 185 00:11:52.529 --> 00:11:53.830 huge part of it. So let me give you a 186 00:11:53.850 --> 00:11:58.080 concrete example of that is that the one that you 187 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:01.059 just mentioned is I also, I grew up in Hinsdale, 188 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:06.840 Illinois and even worse, sorry, not worse, but even more, um, 189 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.600 I was more entrenched in America when I was living 190 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:14.720 on the beach in Santa Monica, California. I very explicitly 191 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.919 felt this is the only place for me. I never 192 00:12:17.990 --> 00:12:19.870 wanted to go anywhere else. In fact, I don't think 193 00:12:19.909 --> 00:12:22.110 I'm ever going to even take a vacation ever again 194 00:12:22.149 --> 00:12:25.389 because I live in paradise now. This is amazing. And 195 00:12:25.509 --> 00:12:28.309 I even had a little disagreements with my girlfriend at 196 00:12:28.330 --> 00:12:30.389 the time who wanted to travel. And I was like, travel? 197 00:12:30.950 --> 00:12:33.580 Why travel? We live in paradise. This is amazing. I 198 00:12:33.629 --> 00:12:35.879 never want to go anywhere but Santa Monica ever again. Yeah. 199 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:44.659 So it wasn't until I heard myself say that, and 200 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:49.370 then I went, oh, wait a minute. Like, I'm 35. 201 00:12:49.370 --> 00:12:51.629 Am I seriously just going to spend the rest of 202 00:12:51.710 --> 00:12:55.309 my life here in this one spot? Is that me? 203 00:12:56.909 --> 00:13:01.110 And I went, oh, hold on. And just like that, 204 00:13:01.710 --> 00:13:05.080 like two values flipped, you know? The value system in 205 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:08.000 my head flipped, and suddenly I was like, no, no, no, 206 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:11.659 wait a minute. I love Santa Monica, but learning and 207 00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:16.799 growing and exploring and expanding my self-identity and having experiences 208 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:18.990 like this is really important to me. Oh my God, 209 00:13:19.019 --> 00:13:21.309 what have I done? I've gotten my, and so just 210 00:13:21.350 --> 00:13:23.789 like that, it kind of, a lot of these changes 211 00:13:24.710 -->

00:13:27.269 happen in an instant. You have a certain thought that 212 00:13:27.309 --> 00:13:30.990 you can't unthink, you know, and it just changes the 213 00:13:33.779 --> 00:13:35.279 But yeah, let's get on to values later. I want 214 00:13:35.299 --> 00:13:39.259 to answer your question. So the big decisions in general, though, 215 00:13:39.850 --> 00:13:42.870 besides that thing I just mentioned of values flipping, I 216 00:13:43.990 --> 00:13:46.629 think the biggest lesson I've learned in the past couple 217 00:13:46.669 --> 00:13:51.370 years is the difference between in theory and in practice. 218 00:13:52.029 --> 00:13:56.190 In theory, you can read books on parenting or think 219 00:13:56.269 --> 00:13:59.970 about where you'd like to live or even describe the 220 00:14:00.009 --> 00:14:03.870 kind of marriage you want to have. But in practice, 221 00:14:05.009 --> 00:14:07.289 when you actually go try the thing that you think 222 00:14:07.350 --> 00:14:11.330 you wanted, you often find out that you don't actually 223 00:14:11.389 --> 00:14:15.179 like it, or you thought it would be really different 224 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:19.580 than it is, or the other people involved in this 225 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:22.580 decision with you have a very different set of needs 226 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:27.210 and values than you do. So the lesson I learned 227 00:14:27.250 --> 00:14:33.679 this year is don't consider anything decided until you've had 228 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.389 a chance to try it in the real world. Like, 229 00:14:37.429 --> 00:14:40.789 don't announce, we've decided we're going to move to the countryside. 230 00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:44.450 Because then you're going to be all embarrassed and guilty 231 00:14:44.490 --> 00:14:46.730 and conflicted if you get there and you find out 232 00:14:46.769 --> 00:14:49.850 that you just don't like living in the countryside. Like, 233 00:14:50.090 --> 00:14:53.879 in theory, you thought you did. But in practice, I 234 00:14:53.889 --> 00:14:55.539 didn't know there were going to be this many bugs. 235 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:01.799 It's boring. So instead, I think it's better to say, like, 236 00:15:02.929 --> 00:15:05.470 We're going to try living in the countryside for a 237 00:15:05.509 --> 00:15:09.970 while and see what it's like. You know what I mean? 238 00:15:11.350 --> 00:15:16.070 Announcing what you're doing, like announcing your plans, has a 239 00:15:16.210 --> 00:15:20.149 weird effect on your psyche and your self-identity. So you 240 00:15:20.169 --> 00:15:24.909 have to be careful when you announce things because it... Yeah, 241 00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:27.659 it can mess with you wanting to go back on 242 00:15:27.700 --> 00:15:28.700 them or not. You know what I mean? 243 00:15:28.899 --> 00:15:32.460 Yeah. That actually reminds me, Derek, of I saw you 244 00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:34.899 gave a talk and I've referenced this in writing and 245 00:15:34.940 --> 00:15:38.419 talks as well and usually get a side eye in 246 00:15:38.460 --> 00:15:42.940 people questioning me. And you've done a lot of research 247 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.679 and spoken about the fact that you should keep your 248 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.620 goals to yourself. You shouldn't share them with other people. 249 00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:54.889 And this is counterintuitive to what most people say. And 250 00:15:54.909 --> 00:15:58.029 so I'd love for you to expand and explain why 251 00:15:58.090 --> 00:16:01.950 should those of us, me and people listening, why should 252 00:16:01.990 --> 00:16:05.899 we keep our goals to ourself instead of making them public? 253 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:10.799 I'm no expert in this. I really just read an 254 00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:15.019 article in Newsweek magazine once that talked about this. And 255 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:17.980 I went, huh, that's interesting. And it happened to be 256 00:16:18.019 --> 00:16:21.370 the same day that the TED conference was asking for submissions. 257 00:16:21.730 --> 00:16:23.350 So I said, oh, I could talk about this thing 258 00:16:23.389 --> 00:16:26.570 I heard about earlier today. and they chose me. And 259 00:16:26.629 --> 00:16:28.120 so then I had to get on stage as if 260 00:16:28.169 --> 00:16:32.580 I was some kind of expert. But that said, the 261 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.340 idea is, okay, I'll just share the idea with your listeners. 262 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:41.840 The idea is that for a certain kind of goal, 263 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:46.200 something called an identity goal, where if you were to 264 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:49.679 do this goal that you're announcing, it would kind of 265 00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:52.899 make you a different kind of person in your eyes, 266 00:16:52.940 --> 00:16:56.750 like just Just the fact that you're pursuing this lifts 267 00:16:57.049 --> 00:17:01.580 your esteem, the esteem in the eyes of others and self-esteem. 268 00:17:02.259 --> 00:17:06.740 So if you announce that you're doing this then, like, 269 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:08.920 you know, I've signed up to, I'm going to do 270 00:17:08.980 --> 00:17:13.700 the Ironman competition, or I'm going to, I've started taking 271 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:17.039 Chinese lessons, I'm going to learn Mandarin. And if you 272 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:20.640 announce it to others, and then those others give you 273 00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:25.420 the social satisfaction Of like, whoa, Ryan, dude, right on, man. 274 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:27.859 You're going to do Iron Man? You're going to learn Chinese? 275 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.420 That's awesome. Man, I could never do that. Well, then 276 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:37.400 that social feedback that you get gives you internal satisfaction. 277 00:17:38.140 --> 00:17:41.079 Like you're like, uh-huh, that's right. I'm the kind of 278 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.309 guy that does Iron Man. Or that's right, I'm the 279

00:17:43.349 --> 00:17:46.130 kind of guy that learns Chinese. And you've now already 280 00:17:46.289 --> 00:17:50.769 felt a lot of the satisfaction that you shouldn't have 281 00:17:50.809 --> 00:17:54.430 felt until you actually do the thing. Like social, we're 282 00:17:54.450 --> 00:17:58.460 social creatures. The things other people say and what other 283 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:02.000 people think of us affects us a lot. So the 284 00:18:02.019 --> 00:18:07.079 big idea is for these kinds of goals, these identity goals, 285 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:13.759 try not telling anybody and keep it to yourself so 286 00:18:13.779 --> 00:18:17.349 that you have to actually do the hard work necessary 287 00:18:18.529 --> 00:18:22.769 in order to get any satisfaction from this thing. Because otherwise, 288 00:18:23.490 --> 00:18:26.609 having already felt the satisfaction, you might not follow through 289 00:18:27.369 --> 00:18:29.470 and do the hard work necessary if you've already felt 290 00:18:29.509 --> 00:18:31.240 the reward just from announcing it. 291 00:18:32.210 --> 00:18:35.980 I've personally seen this comment, and you probably get this 292 00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:38.680 way more than I do, is I'm writing a book 293 00:18:39.019 --> 00:18:42.599 or I'm going to start a podcast. And my whole 294 00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:45.380 thing is then just do it and show me the book. 295 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:47.950 If you have questions about writing a book, that's a 296 00:18:47.970 --> 00:18:51.819 different topic. I'm happy to help you. Just share my 297 00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:55.900 experience with you. That's different. As opposed to trying to 298 00:18:55.940 --> 00:19:00.660 get the rewards before the actual work. I'm with you. 299 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:05.369 I'd rather... I always admire people who accomplish the great things. 300 00:19:06.089 --> 00:19:09.109 Not the ones who tell me what they're about to accomplish. 301 00:19:09.289 --> 00:19:10.609 Just go do it. Right? 302 00:19:10.630 --> 00:19:15.329 Dude. So you live in Ohio. You probably don't get 303 00:19:15.369 --> 00:19:17.349 this as much as people in L.A. 304 00:19:17.829 --> 00:19:18.180 But when I. 305 00:19:18.369 --> 00:19:22.430 I lived in L.A. for seven years. And... there's it's 306 00:19:22.490 --> 00:19:26.329 almost like a disease in los angeles where everybody speaks 307 00:19:26.470 --> 00:19:29.890 in future tense about the things that they've got pending 308 00:19:30.349 --> 00:19:32.349 like oh yeah man we're in talks with emi to 309 00:19:32.369 --> 00:19:35.109 get this thing going you know i'm optioning a script 310 00:19:35.230 --> 00:19:37.730 and something oh yeah this um this agent is looking 311 00:19:37.769 --> 00:19:39.950 at my so-and-so and we're going to be doing this 312 00:19:39.990 --> 00:19:45.069 project with everybody's going around bragging about these hypothetical future 313 00:19:45.130 --> 00:19:49.390 tense things they're doing and they feel the social satisfaction 314 00:19:49.509 --> 00:19:51.900 from doing it. And I just, after a couple of 315 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:54.980 years of that, I felt like just going around wearing 316 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:58.299 a t-shirt that would say, tell me when it happens. Yeah. 317 00:20:00.019 --> 00:20:04.299 I'm with you. I like that shirt. That actually, I think, works. Exactly. 318 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:05.640 That's a Ryan Hawks shirt. 319 00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:08.430 Tell me when it happens. Or just let's see it. 320 00:20:08.789 --> 00:20:12.869 So the other thing, Derek, I often open this podcast 321 00:20:12.930 --> 00:20:18.809 with a question about the term sustaining excellence. I am 322 00:20:19.109 --> 00:20:24.759 fascinated by studying excellence. Learning, reading about those who have 323 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:28.480 sustained excellence. Talk about actually doing it, right? We're kind 324 00:20:28.500 --> 00:20:31.670 of dovetailing off that nicely, which is the people who 325 00:20:31.710 --> 00:20:35.769 have been able to sustain it over many years. And 326 00:20:35.789 --> 00:20:38.269 I know you're known as one of those kind of 327 00:20:38.349 --> 00:20:43.839 philosophical advisors that many high performers go to. You're laughing, 328 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.539 but I think maybe you're a little uncomfortable because it's true. 329 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:50.269 But many high performers go to. So you get kind 330 00:20:50.309 --> 00:20:53.609 of inside the minds of people who have sustained excellence. 331 00:20:53.630 --> 00:20:56.450 You've done it yourself. From your perspective, I'm curious, what 332 00:20:56.470 --> 00:20:58.829 have you found to be some of the commonalities among 333 00:20:58.869 --> 00:21:00.230 people who have sustained excellence? 334 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:09.700 They hold themselves in very high value. In other words, 335 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:14.390 the stakes are high. And this is a little personal, 336 00:21:14.490 --> 00:21:17.130 but why not? I'm going to tell a little story. 337 00:21:18.630 --> 00:21:23.509 Because I was in love with an Olympic athlete and 338 00:21:23.549 --> 00:21:29.380 got to know her very, very well. And her self-worth 339 00:21:30.130 --> 00:21:34.960 was so inspiring. I was one of only four people 340 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.089 that had her phone number. because she raised the bar 341 00:21:38.170 --> 00:21:41.750 for social interaction so high that only these four people 342 00:21:41.809 --> 00:21:44.619 were allowed to take her time. Everyone else had to 343 00:21:44.779 --> 00:21:46.740 go through her agent. Her agent was one of the 344 00:21:46.779 --> 00:21:50.339 four people that had her number. So like anybody outside 345 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:52.880 of that, no, you cannot have any of my time 346 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:58.369 unless you pay handsomely. And then even for dear friends, 347 00:21:58.849 --> 00:22:01.390 even though she was a

big hearted person that loved 348 00:22:01.829 --> 00:22:05.869 her friends fully, they weren't allowed to waste her time. 349 00:22:07.109 --> 00:22:11.410 She was shocked that I let my friends complain about 350 00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:16.269 their life to me for hours. I said, well, you don't? 351 00:22:16.309 --> 00:22:18.789 And she said, no, my friends know not to waste 352 00:22:18.869 --> 00:22:25.839 my time like that. She said, no, I have high 353 00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:29.880 expectations for my friends. So our time together has to 354 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:35.680 be high quality. Whoa. So even in friendship, even, I mean, 355 00:22:35.700 --> 00:22:37.539 this is a little more obvious, but it's like she 356 00:22:37.579 --> 00:22:41.460 would never, ever, ever break her diet. Like the yolks 357 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:44.019 were always removed from the eggs. There was never any 358 00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:47.069 oil on the salad and never, never, never a piece 359 00:22:47.109 --> 00:22:50.789 of bread. I said, oh, you don't like bread? She said, 360 00:22:50.910 --> 00:22:54.190 of course I love bread. But if I eat the bread, 361 00:22:54.309 --> 00:22:57.769 then my performance suffers tomorrow and nothing is worth that. 362 00:22:58.390 --> 00:23:02.119 So she had the most amazing self-control ever. Because she 363 00:23:02.259 --> 00:23:06.440 valued herself so highly. So yeah, I just told you 364 00:23:06.859 --> 00:23:09.240 the little story of her, but I think that that's 365 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:13.549 the common thing that I've found among the excellent. 366 00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:18.789 Was she happy? Very. Really? That doesn't sound like that 367 00:23:18.869 --> 00:23:19.970 happy of a life to me. 368 00:23:20.890 --> 00:23:24.089 No, it was, this had been a lifelong mission. She 369 00:23:24.109 --> 00:23:26.170 had been like this since she was like four years old. 370 00:23:26.269 --> 00:23:28.700 Okay. I just think like the thing with, From a 371 00:23:28.779 --> 00:23:34.720 relationship perspective, we could go to that aspect of it first. 372 00:23:34.819 --> 00:23:39.299 Part of being a friend, because this is what you 373 00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:42.599 do and have done for a while, is that you're 374 00:23:42.619 --> 00:23:45.660 there for your friends when they need you. Sometimes that's 375 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.380 not really– you are going to kind of waste time. 376 00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:53.670 I think having a good community of friends where you 377 00:23:53.710 --> 00:23:56.250 can go to each other and sometimes things aren't good, 378 00:23:56.309 --> 00:23:59.279 which is natural in life. And that person is there 379 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:02.119 for you. And the give and take parts of the 380 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:05.279 relationship kind of shift back and forth depending on what's 381 00:24:05.299 --> 00:24:09.059 happening on that particular day. And so sometimes you're more 382 00:24:09.099 --> 00:24:11.240 of going to receive and other times you're going to 383 00:24:11.259 --> 00:24:14.319 be more of a giver in the relationship with friends 384 00:24:14.380 --> 00:24:18.319 or even a partner. And if it's only like, hey, 385 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:22.660 we can't talk unless it's, you know what I mean? 386 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:24.890 That's why I wondered about that aspect of it. 387 00:24:25.490 --> 00:24:26.839 No, I think she just put the bar in a 388 00:24:26.859 --> 00:24:30.500 different place. So it's like random little like whinging and 389 00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:32.359 moaning about your day for hours? 390 00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:34.099 No. No. 391 00:24:34.779 --> 00:24:35.759 You need to talk? 392 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:36.440 Yes. 393 00:24:36.700 --> 00:24:39.400 Like I'm there for you when you need to talk. 394 00:24:39.420 --> 00:24:43.680 Like there were times as much as she– like I 395 00:24:43.779 --> 00:24:46.740 would have said, if you hadn't reminded me with that 396 00:24:46.779 --> 00:24:51.069 follow-up question, I would have said that she always put 397 00:24:51.109 --> 00:24:56.240 her practice and training top priority– above everything else and 398 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:58.480 and for the most part that was true but yeah 399 00:24:58.500 --> 00:25:02.000 there were a couple times in our times together when 400 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:05.940 when i had to like when i actually called her 401 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:08.859 when she was training and i said i really need 402 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.750 to talk and she's like okay no problem i'll wrap 403 00:25:11.809 --> 00:25:13.950 up now i'll call you back in five minutes and 404 00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:16.430 she would like stop her training because i told her 405 00:25:16.509 --> 00:25:18.809 no this is important So I think that's what I mean. 406 00:25:18.829 --> 00:25:20.569 She just kind of set the bar. So it's like, no, don't, 407 00:25:21.029 --> 00:25:23.150 don't drone on. Like maybe you should just go write 408 00:25:23.170 --> 00:25:25.529 in your journal if you need to, you know, whinge for, 409 00:25:25.650 --> 00:25:29.430 for hours. But yeah, anytime, like if we're talking high 410 00:25:29.490 --> 00:25:33.700 quality relationship need time, like that's like where you really 411 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:35.680 are calling on a dear friend. Yeah, I'm there for you. 412 00:25:35.859 --> 00:25:38.440 So basically they, they. you found that these people just 413 00:25:38.539 --> 00:25:43.059 seem to have extremely high expectations for themselves first. And 414 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:47.039 they live in a way to live up to those 415 00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:49.660 big expectations. Yeah. 416 00:25:50.049 --> 00:25:52.569 And, you know, I mean, honestly, I was just enjoying 417 00:25:52.609 --> 00:25:54.369 a little trip down memory lane. I hadn't thought about 418 00:25:54.390 --> 00:25:56.109 her in a while when you just asked that question. 419

00:25:56.150 --> 00:25:58.970 But yeah, I mean, as I'm running through other examples 420 00:25:59.210 --> 00:26:02.950 of my high performing friends in my head, I'm thinking, yeah, 421 00:26:03.019 --> 00:26:05.720 that is the most common thing is it's just kind of, 422 00:26:06.740 --> 00:26:11.369 Holding yourself to a very high self-esteem, very high value. 423 00:26:11.619 --> 00:26:18.069 Yeah. I'm curious from a philosopher like yourself, when you 424 00:26:18.109 --> 00:26:21.259 think of the word excellence, what does that mean to you? 425 00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:23.180 Or how would you even define that word? I think 426 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:24.940 there's a lot of different definitions when you go out 427 00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:28.019 there online. I'm curious, what would be yours? Hmm. 428 00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:33.019 Sorry, I think my answer is shorter than the question. 429 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:36.369 I think it's just setting very high standards and then 430 00:26:37.069 --> 00:26:40.650 living up to those standards. I think it's just totally 431 00:26:40.710 --> 00:26:42.170 subjective for each person. 432 00:26:42.809 --> 00:26:47.170 How do you do that for yourself? Is living an 433 00:26:47.369 --> 00:26:49.349 excellent life, and this may be a weird question, but 434 00:26:49.410 --> 00:26:53.309 is that something that's important to you? Yeah. 435 00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:58.299 I don't think of it in terms, I mean, yes, important, yes. 436 00:26:59.299 --> 00:27:05.319 But how it's defined might change daily. You know that 437 00:27:05.339 --> 00:27:07.920 example I said earlier about Santa Monica, where it's like, 438 00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:11.519 on a Tuesday, I felt, oh, this is where I'm 439 00:27:11.539 --> 00:27:13.420 going to spend my whole life, right here. I live 440 00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.490 in the best place on earth. And by Thursday, I'm like, 441 00:27:18.109 --> 00:27:21.269 I need to leave America and never come back in 442 00:27:21.309 --> 00:27:24.779 the name of growth and exploration. Like, you can have 443 00:27:24.819 --> 00:27:29.660 these flip flips of values where suddenly what you would 444 00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:33.319 have described as an excellent life two days ago is 445 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:35.529 not what you would now describe as an excellent life 446 00:27:35.569 --> 00:27:43.710 today after you've had an unforgettable thought. So yeah, I 447 00:27:43.750 --> 00:27:49.250 think I'm acknowledging that the definition is ever changing, but yes, 448 00:27:49.569 --> 00:27:53.430 I definitely hold myself to high standards. I think that's 449 00:27:53.470 --> 00:27:56.710 why I fell for the athlete. I hadn't met anybody 450 00:27:56.769 --> 00:28:01.670 like her before. I was like, Oh, you're like me. Um, 451 00:28:02.369 --> 00:28:06.890 and yeah, I've, I always tried to make, uh, I 452 00:28:06.930 --> 00:28:09.339 hold myself to like a very high expectation for what 453 00:28:09.359 -->

00:28:10.059 I want out of life. 454 00:28:10.099 --> 00:28:14.000 Yeah. What about, um, let's shift to from a leadership perspective. Um, 455 00:28:14.420 --> 00:28:17.230 when you were running CD baby, um, And maybe you 456 00:28:17.269 --> 00:28:21.029 can briefly talk about everything you accomplished with CD Baby. 457 00:28:21.069 --> 00:28:25.210 But as you mentioned, you had many employees, like 80-plus. 458 00:28:25.250 --> 00:28:26.569 Is that what I heard you say? 459 00:28:26.609 --> 00:28:27.190 Yeah. 460 00:28:27.210 --> 00:28:31.049 80-plus employees. So you're in a leadership position doing everything 461 00:28:31.190 --> 00:28:35.049 you can to support the team that you are leading 462 00:28:35.549 --> 00:28:39.750 to help the clients and customers to, as you said, 463 00:28:40.869 --> 00:28:43.809 achieve their kind of musical dreams. But this is a 464 00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:46.869 big-time leadership role you find yourself in. And so I 465 00:28:46.890 --> 00:28:49.329 would imagine, given the type of guy you are, you're 466 00:28:49.349 --> 00:28:51.509 going to study what it means to be calm or 467 00:28:51.569 --> 00:28:54.369 to be a good leader for your team and for 468 00:28:54.410 --> 00:28:59.890 your clients. And so how do you think about leadership? 469 00:29:00.349 --> 00:29:04.029 What is your mindset towards being an excellent leader? And 470 00:29:04.089 --> 00:29:06.170 how do you define that for yourself? And maybe there's 471 00:29:06.210 --> 00:29:08.539 examples of others that you've looked at that have been 472 00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:10.599 helpful too, but I'm just curious of that in general. 473 00:29:13.299 --> 00:29:15.579 I honestly haven't thought about this in a long time. 474 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:20.460 It's funny. It's been 12 years since I left CD Baby. 475 00:29:20.509 --> 00:29:23.970 And I feel like being a leader is something that 476 00:29:24.049 --> 00:29:29.630 I did for 10 years. And I think a big 477 00:29:29.670 --> 00:29:33.390 reason I quit is because I didn't like it. I 478 00:29:33.410 --> 00:29:37.630 didn't like having all that responsibility. So sorry, I'm not 479 00:29:37.670 --> 00:29:40.920 going to have a lot to say on this, but 480 00:29:42.980 --> 00:29:48.539 in general, I think that excellent leadership is being selfless. 481 00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:55.710 To have the perspective to see what's long-term best for 482 00:29:55.750 --> 00:30:00.509 the people that you're serving is And then ensuring that 483 00:30:00.549 --> 00:30:04.150 it happens, right? Like a narcissist is the opposite of 484 00:30:04.210 --> 00:30:09.730 a leader, right? Like I think good leadership is forgetting 485 00:30:09.779 --> 00:30:12.640 yourself and doing what's best for others. 486 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:19.000 You sold CD Baby and can you share like kind 487 00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:21.059 of the exit story there? How much you sold it for, 488 00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:22.259 what you did with the

money and why? 489 00:30:26.710 --> 00:30:31.259 You asked in four seconds, you just named the three 490 00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:34.279 things that I had planned to never speak about. And 491 00:30:34.299 --> 00:30:36.019 I'm sorry, I don't mean in this phone call. I mean, 492 00:30:36.019 --> 00:30:40.119 12 years ago, when I sold the company, I thought, okay, 493 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:41.740 how much I sold it for and what I'm doing 494 00:30:41.779 --> 00:30:45.109 with the money. This is nobody's business. So, you know, 495 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:51.900 it's funny. It was 2008 and podcasts were... not really 496 00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:56.460 mainstream yet right no definitely and so there was this 497 00:30:56.539 --> 00:31:01.299 guy uh greg gallant i believe who interviewed me on 498 00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:06.089 his podcast and and we were like an hour long 499 00:31:06.109 --> 00:31:09.190 into the conversation when he said so how much did 500 00:31:09.210 --> 00:31:12.529 you sell for and i was just suddenly put on 501 00:31:12.549 --> 00:31:15.849 the spot my my brain was quickly going like should 502 00:31:15.869 --> 00:31:18.440 i say this out loud like That's nobody's business. And 503 00:31:18.460 --> 00:31:20.859 I was like, I'm on the air. I'm being recorded. 504 00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:22.400 I don't want to be rude. And then the real 505 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:25.339 thought was, you know, we're an hour into a podcast. 506 00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:28.670 Nobody listens to these things anyway. So I said, all right, 507 00:31:28.710 --> 00:31:31.809 I sold for $ 22 million. And so he published the 508 00:31:31.829 --> 00:31:35.750 podcast saying, Derek Sivers sells CD Baby for $ 22 million. 509 00:31:35.769 --> 00:31:37.309 I'm like the big headline. 510 00:31:37.349 --> 00:31:38.210 I was like, oh, damn it. 511 00:31:39.549 --> 00:31:45.369 I outed myself accidentally. And then like about a month later, again, 512 00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:47.910 I still didn't learn my lesson. I still didn't think 513 00:31:47.970 --> 00:31:51.240 anybody listens an hour into a podcast. Some random dude said, 514 00:31:51.259 --> 00:31:53.920 you know, so how does it feel to be swimming 515 00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:56.819 in $ 22 million now? And I said, well, actually, I 516 00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:59.980 just gave it all away. And he's like, what? You 517 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:03.359 gave it all away? And I said, well, yeah, I'd 518 00:32:03.380 --> 00:32:05.279 set up a charitable trust and I'd put the money 519 00:32:05.299 --> 00:32:07.829 into the trust because I didn't want it. And he's like, wait, 520 00:32:07.869 --> 00:32:10.470 we need to talk about this. I was like, oh, no, man, 521 00:32:10.490 --> 00:32:12.029 I didn't think I was going to ever talk about 522 00:32:12.069 --> 00:32:15.289 this publicly. So anyway, there, I just told you the 523 00:32:15.349 --> 00:32:19.349 answer through my whining little tale. But yeah, that's what 524 00:32:19.390 --> 00:32:24.440 I did. I was already making plenty of money before 525 00:32:24.500 --> 00:32:26.220 I sold the company. I was the sole owner. I 526 00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:29.539 had no investors. It was a very profitable business. So 527 00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:32.400 when I sold the company for 22 million, I knew 528 00:32:32.420 --> 00:32:34.250 that I didn't even want the money. So I set 529 00:32:34.289 --> 00:32:38.710 up a charitable trust to benefit music education, because to me, 530 00:32:38.829 --> 00:32:43.019 that just felt like the grand circle of life, like 531 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:46.259 the idea that all this money came from musicians in 532 00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:50.059 this generation. And when I die, it's going to go 533 00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:54.029 all to the next generation of musicians in that generation. 534 00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:59.619 Uh, do you ever, uh, rethink that decision? Are there 535 00:32:59.700 --> 00:33:01.380 ever days where you're like, it'd be nice to have 536 00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:05.519 like 10 million right now? No, never do. Really? No. 537 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:06.640 I mean, seriously. Okay. 538 00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:13.660 Well, I very often, you know what? I keep a, okay. 539 00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:16.079 I journal my ass off. I journal for one to 540 00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:19.480 three hours a day. I just like to I think 541 00:33:19.529 --> 00:33:21.470 I do it instead of watching movies. It's like I 542 00:33:21.509 --> 00:33:24.890 watch movies in my head. I play out alternate futures. 543 00:33:25.390 --> 00:33:28.750 And so one of the things I occasionally ask myself 544 00:33:28.789 --> 00:33:33.190 a few times a year is, if I ever start 545 00:33:33.230 --> 00:33:36.170 to have that thought that you just described, I'll stop 546 00:33:36.210 --> 00:33:38.369 and I'll turn to my journal and I'll say, what 547 00:33:38.430 --> 00:33:42.319 would I do if I had $ 100 million right now? 548 00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:46.400 And I'll sit there with an open journal and I'll say, um. 549 00:33:50.180 --> 00:33:51.640 Would I get a Tesla? I was like, no, I 550 00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:55.539 don't need a Tesla. Would I? No, I wouldn't. Maybe 551 00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:59.339 I'd hire a teacher to help. I was like, well, okay, 552 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:03.890 that costs $ 20, 000. All right. I was like, and whenever 553 00:34:03.930 --> 00:34:06.150 I try to come up with something I would do 554 00:34:06.230 --> 00:34:12.349 in my life, if I had $ 100 million, I'm stumped 555 00:34:12.570 --> 00:34:16.090 because I wouldn't do anything differently. I just don't want anything. 556 00:34:16.110 --> 00:34:18.929 And so, no, I never regret the decision. I'm really 557 00:34:18.969 --> 00:34:22.829 glad that I didn't have that $ 22 million come to 558 00:34:22.869 --> 00:34:25.710 my name and find it burning a hole through my 559 00:34:25.750 --> 00:34:27.829 pocket just because I have it. I

think that I 560 00:34:27.929 --> 00:34:31.429 probably should go buy the giant home I don't need 561 00:34:31.510 --> 00:34:33.820 or the stupid car that I don't need, you know? 562 00:34:33.940 --> 00:34:35.219 So I'm glad I didn't do those things. 563 00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.340 You just mentioned your journal, uh, a lot. And, uh, 564 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:44.119 I think this is something I work with leaders that 565 00:34:44.219 --> 00:34:46.340 I talk about quite a bit is the importance of 566 00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:50.719 documenting what you think, putting pen to paper. And you've, 567 00:34:50.860 --> 00:34:54.159 you've definitely talked about this and you, I, my, my 568 00:34:54.219 --> 00:34:57.480 feeling is since, especially whether it's from writing a book 569 00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:01.760 or even just writing articles, I don't fully know how 570 00:35:01.889 --> 00:35:05.070 little I know about something until I try to write 571 00:35:05.130 --> 00:35:07.949 about it. And then you do the research. And then 572 00:35:08.449 --> 00:35:10.960 by the end of it, I feel like I have 573 00:35:10.980 --> 00:35:13.559 a little bit better grasp on whatever it is I'm 574 00:35:13.659 --> 00:35:16.920 writing about. Same thing that goes if I'm getting ready 575 00:35:16.940 --> 00:35:22.199 to give a big speech somewhere. I want to serve 576 00:35:22.219 --> 00:35:25.079 that audience, so I prepare like crazy. There's a lot 577 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:29.829 of writing and rehearsing and thinking and pictures and analogies. 578 00:35:30.889 --> 00:35:34.099 From your perspective, for the person maybe who says– I 579 00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:36.760 get it. You know, Derek has time to write that much. 580 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.400 I don't have that time to write. And, and obviously 581 00:35:39.949 --> 00:35:42.550 everyone listening has that time. It's, it's their choice of 582 00:35:42.610 --> 00:35:44.769 how they choose to use it. What, what have you 583 00:35:44.809 --> 00:35:49.809 found to be the power behind documenting your thoughts? 584 00:35:50.630 --> 00:35:56.099 Hmm. Um, by the way, time-wise, I don't think I 585 00:35:56.139 --> 00:36:05.929 have watched a show of any sort. I like more 586 00:36:05.949 --> 00:36:07.610 than two hours in the past year. 587 00:36:08.449 --> 00:36:08.710 Really? 588 00:36:08.809 --> 00:36:11.630 I don't, I don't watch anything. So I think my 589 00:36:11.690 --> 00:36:15.389 journaling time comes from the, that kind of time. I 590 00:36:15.469 --> 00:36:17.489 really meant it when I said, like, I, I watch 591 00:36:17.530 --> 00:36:20.880 movies in my brain, you know, like I, anytime I 592 00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:23.420 feel like that kind of just crashing on the couch 593 00:36:23.460 --> 00:36:26.579 and exhaling, I do it with the journal in my hands. 594 00:36:26.699 --> 00:36:29.880 And I just, I just write and I just play 595 00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:32.300 out hypotheticals and I just pour out

whatever's in my head. 596 00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:37.619 And So, okay, you asked the value and the importance 597 00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:42.320 of it. One of my favorite things, sorry, this is 598 00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:48.489 answering your question, is I just a few years ago 599 00:36:48.530 --> 00:36:54.250 started keeping per-topic journals. So because I'm just doing it 600 00:36:54.309 --> 00:36:57.349 on the computer anyway in text files, but I'm sure 601 00:36:57.369 --> 00:36:58.730 you could do this on paper too if you wanted, 602 00:36:59.190 --> 00:37:01.630 I found that there were some subjects that I just 603 00:37:01.730 --> 00:37:06.679 kept coming back to like for years, we were considering 604 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:09.679 moving to Singapore. In fact, back to Singapore. My son 605 00:37:09.699 --> 00:37:12.679 was born in Singapore and we were considering moving back 606 00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:16.530 there from New Zealand. So for years in my daily diary, 607 00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:20.090 I kept having thoughts come into my head about Singapore, 608 00:37:20.289 --> 00:37:22.570 kind of like updated thoughts. And so eventually I thought, 609 00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:24.190 you know, I should really keep these all in one 610 00:37:24.269 --> 00:37:29.409 place instead of having them scattered among 400 separate entries. 611 00:37:29.510 --> 00:37:31.380 I should just put them into one place. So that's 612 00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:35.960 when I started keeping a I call it Thoughts On Journal. 613 00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:39.039 So it's like a folder called Thoughts On. And inside 614 00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:42.380 are a couple hundred text files with names like Singapore 615 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:52.269 or language learning or interviews. So that really helps to, 616 00:37:52.570 --> 00:37:55.010 whenever you find yourself returning to the same subject, open 617 00:37:55.070 --> 00:38:00.190 up that journal and write down your current thoughts on, 618 00:38:01.300 --> 00:38:03.480 I timestamp it, like with today's date, and then you 619 00:38:03.500 --> 00:38:07.260 write down your current thoughts about this thing now. And 620 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:11.260 then it's fascinating to scroll down and see what you 621 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.929 were thinking on this subject three months ago or one 622 00:38:13.969 --> 00:38:16.889 year ago or three years ago. It's really cool to 623 00:38:16.949 --> 00:38:21.889 see how your thoughts have changed because a lot of 624 00:38:21.929 --> 00:38:26.570 us often come back to the same thought. So then 625 00:38:26.610 --> 00:38:30.670 you can see how consistently have I been feeling today? 626 00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:35.000 Or thinking about this subject? Or is it always changing? 627 00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:38.900 Another example is like for a year I wanted a dog. 628 00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:43.659 And I really, really wanted a dog. But I told myself, 629 00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:46.699 that's a huge commitment. I'm not going to get a 630 00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:48.929 dog unless at least a year has passed and I 631 00:38:48.989 --> 00:38:53.449 still want a dog. And so I had thoughts on dog.txt 632 00:38:53.809 --> 00:38:56.179 that I would always turn to. when I was thinking 633 00:38:56.219 --> 00:38:58.400 about getting a dog. And it was just interesting to 634 00:38:58.460 --> 00:39:00.820 see that after a year, it's like, okay, my thoughts 635 00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:04.659 have been very consistent on this subject. And so after 636 00:39:04.699 --> 00:39:06.309 a year, I got a dog because I could look 637 00:39:06.369 --> 00:39:09.929 back at the consistency. Yeah, it helps to see your expectations. 638 00:39:10.250 --> 00:39:12.329 When I was living in New Zealand for a little while, 639 00:39:12.369 --> 00:39:14.170 I thought it would be really cool to get an RV, 640 00:39:14.389 --> 00:39:17.059 you know, a motorhome. And I thought that for a 641 00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:22.039 few months and I had thoughts on rv.txt, full of many, many, 642 00:39:22.059 --> 00:39:25.090 many thoughts about why I want an RV and the 643 00:39:25.150 --> 00:39:27.909 pros and cons. And so eventually, I got an RV. 644 00:39:27.929 --> 00:39:32.280 And it was totally different. different than I expected. It 645 00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:35.059 was kind of terrible. Even though I had rented one 646 00:39:35.380 --> 00:39:37.679 before and I knew that, I thought that owning one 647 00:39:37.699 --> 00:39:41.750 would be different somehow. But no, I hated it. So yeah, 648 00:39:41.769 --> 00:39:43.769 that lasted a few weeks. I sold it right back 649 00:39:43.809 --> 00:39:46.010 to the dealer I bought it from. Luckily, I didn't 650 00:39:46.050 --> 00:39:49.230 lose too much money. But yeah, that's something where You 651 00:39:49.250 --> 00:39:52.909 can look at the thoughts on journal now, and it's 652 00:39:52.969 --> 00:39:56.969 fascinating to see what I expected it to be like 653 00:39:57.030 --> 00:39:59.659 versus what it was like. So anyway, as you can 654 00:39:59.699 --> 00:40:01.159 tell from me going on and on and on about 655 00:40:01.179 --> 00:40:03.059 the subject, I think this is just one of the 656 00:40:03.099 --> 00:40:10.039 most useful things anyone can do. Not just writing down 657 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:15.780 the first thought that comes to mind, but constantly challenge yourself. 658 00:40:16.659 --> 00:40:19.650 When you ask yourself a question like, Why do I 659 00:40:19.710 --> 00:40:23.710 think we should move to the countryside? You'll answer that question. 660 00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:28.599 Like you'll say, because I want silence. So then you 661 00:40:28.619 --> 00:40:30.280 have to push back on yourself and you have to say, 662 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:34.179 so am I unable to get silence where I'm living now? 663 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:39.849 Like wouldn't noise proof windows solve that same problem? But 664 00:40:39.889 -->

00:40:42.809 yet I could still remain conveniently located where we are. 665 00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:45.440 Do I need to move an hour into the countryside 666 00:40:45.460 --> 00:40:47.679 to get silence? Or could I move five minutes away? 667 00:40:47.699 --> 00:40:50.090 You know, you got to push back on yourself to 668 00:40:50.869 --> 00:40:55.650 challenge your thinking. And then lastly, despite everything we said, 669 00:40:55.809 --> 00:40:59.369 I think it's also important to keep just a daily 670 00:40:59.809 --> 00:41:02.199 what I did today diary. Even if it's like you 671 00:41:02.219 --> 00:41:04.659 just spent five minutes a day just saying what you 672 00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:09.519 did today. Because I'll bet that future you is going 673 00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:14.199 to want to know what present you back in crazy 674 00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:18.460 2020 was doing. Like in 2050, you're probably going to 675 00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:23.570 be wondering, was I really as scared as I remember 676 00:41:23.690 --> 00:41:26.110 in 2020 or as happy as I remember in 2020? 677 00:41:26.110 --> 00:41:28.730 Or what was I thinking when all that crazy stuff 678 00:41:28.750 --> 00:41:32.010 was going down in 2020? I have some faint memories, 679 00:41:32.090 --> 00:41:35.360 but it would be way more interesting to be able 680 00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:38.519 to look at a daily diary of what you were doing. 681 00:41:39.429 --> 00:41:43.190 In that crazy year of 2020. And, you know, who knows? 682 00:41:43.250 --> 00:41:46.159 Future years will probably be crazy, too. But, yeah, do 683 00:41:46.179 --> 00:41:51.320 this for your future self. Journal your current activities as 684 00:41:51.380 --> 00:41:52.699 a service to your future self. 685 00:41:53.940 --> 00:41:59.789 You mentioned earlier in the conversation about your values. And 686 00:42:00.380 --> 00:42:02.400 this is a topic I've been talking about with my friend, 687 00:42:02.420 --> 00:42:05.360 Brooke cups recently. And he's a, he's a high school 688 00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:09.530 leadership teacher and basketball coach and incredible, incredible guy about 689 00:42:09.590 --> 00:42:12.260 living out his values has really helped me and, And 690 00:42:12.570 --> 00:42:16.070 I'd love to hear, one, what are some of your 691 00:42:16.389 --> 00:42:20.429 core values? And then further, how do you actually live 692 00:42:21.110 --> 00:42:26.750 those values out considering the choices you make and how 693 00:42:26.829 --> 00:42:29.510 you choose to live, right? Like I think it's what 694 00:42:29.570 --> 00:42:33.369 you've done in your past is not what most people 695 00:42:33.409 --> 00:42:36.139 would do, whether even just from the CD baby sale 696 00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:38.800 or other things from there. So what are some of 697 00:42:38.820 --> 00:42:41.780 your values and how do you choose to actually live 698 00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:42.760 out those values? 699 00:42:45.219 --> 00:42:52.429

I think values themselves aren't very interesting. Like, okay, learning, creating, growing, change, parenting. 700 00:42:52.530 --> 00:42:53.309 Those are my values. 701 00:42:53.489 --> 00:42:53.949 Boring. 702 00:42:54.789 --> 00:42:56.969 How do I live them? I notice when one is 703 00:42:57.010 --> 00:42:59.599 lacking and I give it my more priority until it's 704 00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:00.559 not lacking anymore. 705 00:43:01.099 --> 00:43:01.599 Boring. 706 00:43:02.579 --> 00:43:08.420 But what's interesting is remaining interesting. flexible and creative in 707 00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:12.090 how you can fulfill your values. The big idea is 708 00:43:12.150 --> 00:43:17.170 to not get stuck on one plan, right? So say 709 00:43:17.230 --> 00:43:21.250 that you had planned to be a public speaker or 710 00:43:21.690 --> 00:43:25.119 even better, a concert promoter. So you decided that this 711 00:43:25.159 --> 00:43:27.039 is what matters most to you. And damn it, I'm 712 00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:30.199 going to be a concert promoter. This is my calling. Well, 713 00:43:30.219 --> 00:43:33.239 then COVID-19 hits and the career of a public speaker 714 00:43:33.619 --> 00:43:36.300 or a concert promoter is not going to be doable 715 00:43:36.380 --> 00:43:41.699 for a few years. So you have to ask yourself like, well, 716 00:43:42.139 --> 00:43:45.480 what did I really want from doing that? What was 717 00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:49.760 it I really wanted? Was it to share my ideas? 718 00:43:50.619 --> 00:43:54.110 Was it to become eloquent? Was it to meet lots 719 00:43:54.170 --> 00:43:58.300 of people? Whatever it is, what are some other creative 720 00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:04.369 ways you can get what you want, considering the new situation? Like, say, 721 00:44:04.510 --> 00:44:08.050 if travel was your top priority, but then you have 722 00:44:08.110 --> 00:44:12.849 a baby with someone who is strongly opposed to traveling. Well, 723 00:44:12.889 --> 00:44:15.079 so now you have to ask yourself what you really 724 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:20.380 wanted from travel. Was it just to eat crazy food? 725 00:44:21.019 --> 00:44:24.320 Was it to more deeply understand different cultures? Was it 726 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:28.619 to brag on Instagram about your wonderful life? You have 727 00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:31.579 to really be honest with yourself to try to think 728 00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:33.639 through what was it that I really wanted from that? 729 00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:37.409 And then what are some other creative ways you can 730 00:44:37.449 --> 00:44:42.070 meet those needs considering the new situation? And lastly, I 731 00:44:43.369 --> 00:44:47.429 think it's important to not get too attached to to 732 00:44:47.469 --> 00:44:51.420 your current values? Because like my example earlier, like they 733 00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:55.260 could change it anytime. I made the out of the 734 00:44:55.300 --> 00:44:58.760 blue Santa Monica travel the world

versus not example. But 735 00:44:59.179 --> 00:45:02.840 what if, say your health was never a top priority? 736 00:45:03.099 --> 00:45:05.659 Like if somebody would have asked your value systems, you 737 00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:07.550 would have listed five other things, but you wouldn't have 738 00:45:07.590 --> 00:45:10.969 put health on there. But then you suddenly get lymphoma 739 00:45:10.989 --> 00:45:15.889 or something, and suddenly health becomes a top priority. And 740 00:45:16.539 --> 00:45:20.460 All these other things that were important before, whether it 741 00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:23.320 was going out to parties or traveling, might suddenly become 742 00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:27.980 very unappealing. So, yeah, don't get too attached to your 743 00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:30.489 current values and just admit that they are likely to 744 00:45:30.530 --> 00:45:33.789 change at any time. So when somebody wants to know 745 00:45:33.829 --> 00:45:36.070 your values, you can say, well, these are my values now. 746 00:45:38.050 --> 00:45:44.409 You're a self-described, I may say this wrong, monomaniac. 747 00:45:45.610 --> 00:45:46.949 I only learned that term a month ago. 748 00:45:47.179 --> 00:45:49.719 Okay. So self-described– did I pronounce that right? 749 00:45:49.900 --> 00:45:50.679 I think so. Okay. 750 00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:55.360 Self-described monomaniac, meaning– and what that means is you are 751 00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:58.599 the type of person who has an obsession with one thing. 752 00:45:59.659 --> 00:46:04.889 And I'm curious, how did you diagnose yourself as that 753 00:46:04.949 --> 00:46:06.610 and how do you think that's been helpful for you? 754 00:46:09.090 --> 00:46:11.570 It's– It's making it sound like a very serious thing, 755 00:46:11.590 --> 00:46:13.650 especially when you say diagnose. But no, it's more like 756 00:46:13.949 --> 00:46:16.369 I just randomly came across this word in a book 757 00:46:16.429 --> 00:46:18.949 or somewhere and I went, monomaniac, what is that? And 758 00:46:18.969 --> 00:46:20.090 I went and looked it up and I went. 759 00:46:21.260 --> 00:46:22.519 Oh, hey, that's me. 760 00:46:23.579 --> 00:46:26.320 It just means, yeah, I have always been this way 761 00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:29.460 since I was a kid. I just get really, really 762 00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:33.730 into one thing at a time. I'm really not good 763 00:46:33.909 --> 00:46:38.099 at doing that Super balanced life where I wake up 764 00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:40.199 and do an hour of this and then three hours 765 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:41.900 of that and then make sure to get you Know 766 00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:44.239 two hours of this every day and then one hour 767 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:48.349 of that. I admire people that do that, but I've 768 00:46:48.429 --> 00:46:50.989 tried to do that even and I just I get 769 00:46:51.130 --> 00:46:53.050 so into what I'm doing I just want to see 770 00:46:53.070 --> 00:46:56.070 it through to completion. So honestly, that's all it means What. 771 00:46:56.010 --> 00:46:58.889 Are some of those things recently for you the one things? 772 00:46:59.650 --> 00:47:04.130 Sure it's not that interesting, but a very concrete example 773 00:47:04.329 --> 00:47:07.829 is my next book is called How to Live. And 774 00:47:08.110 --> 00:47:12.230 I absolutely love writing it so much that for 15 775 00:47:12.230 --> 00:47:14.989 hours a day, I was doing nothing but writing How 776 00:47:15.050 --> 00:47:18.269 to Live for months, every single day, seven days a week, 777 00:47:18.409 --> 00:47:20.550 just writing How to Live all day long, except, you know, 778 00:47:20.590 --> 00:47:22.889 of course, stopping to play with my kid. And then 779 00:47:22.929 --> 00:47:25.670 at Christmas time, my assistant said, hey, there are a 780 00:47:25.690 --> 00:47:27.230 whole bunch of things on the back end of this 781 00:47:27.269 --> 00:47:30.280 system here that I really can't do my work without 782 00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:34.119 and I need your help making these things. I went, oh, 783 00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:36.889 good point. So I paused the writing of my book 784 00:47:37.789 --> 00:47:41.469 and for three months just got really totally into programming 785 00:47:41.750 --> 00:47:43.590 all these like back end tools I needed in order 786 00:47:43.630 --> 00:47:48.380 to help me handle the book production stuff better. And 787 00:47:48.389 --> 00:47:51.099 I did nothing but programming for three months. I haven't 788 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.860 done any writing in months. And I'm at the very 789 00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:55.719 tail end of that now. And as soon as I'm done, 790 00:47:55.739 --> 00:47:58.300 I'm going to go all the way back into writing, 791 00:47:58.460 --> 00:48:01.539 just nothing but writing all day, every day. So that's 792 00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:08.530 the kind of, oh, and then when the COVID-19 stuff started, 793 00:48:08.550 --> 00:48:11.949 I got really worried about all these people I know 794 00:48:12.429 --> 00:48:13.769 out in the world. And so I sent out an 795 00:48:13.829 --> 00:48:15.980 email to my whole mailing list saying, how are you? 796 00:48:16.219 --> 00:48:19.179 Are you okay? Like, yes, I'm really answering. I'm sorry, 797 00:48:19.219 --> 00:48:23.179 I'm really asking, please answer. And I got 7,000 emails 798 00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:23.780 in return. 799 00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:26.940 And so I think I was one of those, but yes, 800 00:48:27.940 --> 00:48:29.739 asking you to come on this podcast, but go ahead. 801 00:48:30.539 --> 00:48:33.820 So for the next two weeks, I did nothing but 802 00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:35.949 answer emails. Like literally I would get up at five 803 00:48:35.949 --> 00:48:38.030 30 or six in the morning and I would answer 804 00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:41.869 emails nonstop, just stopping to stretch and eat a little bit, 805 00:48:41.889 --> 00:48:43.610 then get back to it until

midnight every day. 806 00:48:43.630 --> 00:48:44.690 So what is that? 807 00:48:44.750 --> 00:48:47.369 Six, 6am to midnight. What is that? 18 hours a day. Um, 808 00:48:49.090 --> 00:48:51.010 just doing emails for two weeks until they were done 809 00:48:51.030 --> 00:48:53.369 because I just like to see things through to completion. 810 00:48:54.849 --> 00:48:58.389 And you've written about that. I'm immersed in their stories 811 00:48:58.449 --> 00:49:03.320 and almost devastated from the stress, but also thankful for 812 00:49:03.340 --> 00:49:06.039 the connection. This is in regards to all those emails. 813 00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:09.380 And I guess my question is, is there a point 814 00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:13.079 where that stress outweighs the value of the connection? And 815 00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:15.119 what's your decision-making process for that? 816 00:49:18.199 --> 00:49:22.019 I think in terms of net, right? Like the warm 817 00:49:22.059 --> 00:49:26.559 and fuzzy good feelings I get from connecting with 7,000 818 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:31.699 people versus a few hours of stress trying to get 819 00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:34.539 back to them all in time. So that's a huge 820 00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:37.989 plus and a little minus, right? So that's net positive. 821 00:49:39.130 --> 00:49:43.969 But Let's pick a different example. So say someone who 822 00:49:44.070 --> 00:49:47.030 buys a house that's bigger than they need, or a 823 00:49:47.090 --> 00:49:50.429 new fancy car that costs 10 times what a basic 824 00:49:50.469 --> 00:49:54.260 cheap used car would cost, to use your $ 100 million 825 00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:59.300 question earlier. If somebody decides to buy those things, then 826 00:50:00.739 --> 00:50:02.940 they're probably deciding that they're going to have to work 827 00:50:02.980 --> 00:50:05.360 at a job doing something they don't really want to 828 00:50:05.570 --> 00:50:10.329 do for the next 10 years. in order to pay 829 00:50:10.409 --> 00:50:14.150 off that expensive choice. So to me, that's like a 830 00:50:14.190 --> 00:50:17.349 little plus, like, yeah, it's kind of nicer to have 831 00:50:17.389 --> 00:50:20.730 a nicer car, but there's a huge minus on the 832 00:50:20.750 --> 00:50:24.900 backside of that. So to me, that's net negative. So 833 00:50:25.099 --> 00:50:30.860 I think I've always been a long-term thinker, even when 834 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:34.019 I was a teenager and my friends would ask why 835 00:50:34.059 --> 00:50:37.019 I didn't have any tattoos. And it's like, well, cause 836 00:50:37.059 --> 00:50:40.300 my 90 year old self might not want them. And 837 00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:43.119 they just looked at me weird. They're like, dude. I 838 00:50:43.139 --> 00:50:45.760 don't know. Even as a teenager, I'm always thinking in 839 00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:50.530 terms of my 90-year-old self looking back. I'm always thinking 840 00:50:50.570 --> 00:50:55.690 in terms of decades and net positive in the long 841 00:50:55.750 --> 00:50:56.730 term or net negative. 842 00:50:58.050 --> 00:51:02.289 Is writing books the primary way that you make money? 843 00:51:02.409 --> 00:51:05.670 Or what's the primary source of your revenue streams now? 844 00:51:06.889 --> 00:51:11.170 I haven't made any money since 2008. when I sold 845 00:51:11.369 --> 00:51:14.659 CD Baby, yeah, I had plenty of money saved up, 846 00:51:14.739 --> 00:51:16.380 so I've just been living off of savings. 847 00:51:16.460 --> 00:51:16.940 Seriously? 848 00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:17.719 Uh-huh. 849 00:51:18.099 --> 00:51:18.519 Wow. 850 00:51:18.900 --> 00:51:21.559 Okay. I just do everything for free, and I enjoy that. 851 00:51:21.659 --> 00:51:27.699 I like not having to monetize the things I enjoy doing. 852 00:51:27.780 --> 00:51:32.269 So all of this, you know, whatever, hundreds or thousands 853 00:51:32.329 --> 00:51:34.449 of hours of answering email, I'm just doing it just. 854 00:51:34.369 --> 00:51:35.750 Because I need it. So your book, Anything You Want, 855 00:51:35.769 --> 00:51:37.150 which is a very popular book. 856 00:51:37.210 --> 00:51:41.659 It's... Oh, sorry. I guess I have earned a little 857 00:51:41.699 --> 00:51:45.420 money from that, but I mean, hardly anything in the 858 00:51:45.460 --> 00:51:49.539 big picture. If that money went into my bank account, 859 00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:50.639 I didn't even notice. 860 00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:54.909 So you're good for the foreseeable future financially? 861 00:51:55.820 --> 00:51:59.590 Yeah, I live very cheaply, so I'm good. 862 00:52:00.210 --> 00:52:02.650 Wow. that has to be, it reminds me of like 863 00:52:02.710 --> 00:52:04.630 Forrest Gump. It's like, that's like one less thing. I 864 00:52:05.510 --> 00:52:08.949 don't know. I love that quote. Do you? I mean, 865 00:52:09.010 --> 00:52:10.269 you just would be able to mow the grass for 866 00:52:10.329 --> 00:52:13.110 free because that's one less thing to worry about. I mean, 867 00:52:13.190 --> 00:52:18.760 it's like, you know, especially as a dad, I think of, 868 00:52:19.110 --> 00:52:20.389 I don't know. I mean, I think of this quite 869 00:52:20.409 --> 00:52:22.489 a bit of, you know, we have a high fixed 870 00:52:22.550 --> 00:52:27.170 cost as a family because kids are expensive. And so 871 00:52:27.250 --> 00:52:32.119 there's that balance between Like my parents were so great 872 00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:34.159 about that for us and our family that I want 873 00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:36.739 to be the same as one of the leaders, my 874 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:39.070 wife being the other one, the leaders of our family, 875 00:52:40.190 --> 00:52:42.610 that that's there. And so I see that, though, but 876 00:52:42.650 --> 00:52:45.369 did walk away from a corporate America job with some 877 00:52:45.389 --> 00:52:48.789 of those inflated salaries and comp plans to do something 878 00:52:48.849 --> 00:52:51.449 more that I love.

And the satisfaction in it is 879 00:52:51.510 --> 00:52:54.719 dramatically increased, even if initially at least the income increased. 880 00:52:55.269 --> 00:52:57.329 went away. And I, and so that, that's why I'm 881 00:52:57.349 --> 00:53:00.159 fascinated by that part where you, it just doesn't seem 882 00:53:00.179 --> 00:53:01.460 like it's something you think about. 883 00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:04.619 Yeah, it's amazing. 884 00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:08.000 Um, I don't think that part though is that relatable 885 00:53:08.059 --> 00:53:10.800 to many people listening, Derek, you probably know that though. 886 00:53:10.820 --> 00:53:12.039 I mean, you have to know that. Yeah. 887 00:53:12.909 --> 00:53:19.889 Well, you know, I, ever since I was a teenager, uh, 888 00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:23.360 I found a way to live so cheaply that I 889 00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:25.840 never had to do anything I didn't want to do. 890 00:53:26.699 --> 00:53:30.219 So I haven't ever really in my life, uh, done 891 00:53:30.280 --> 00:53:32.949 anything I didn't want to do because instead I would 892 00:53:32.989 --> 00:53:37.789 just lower my expenses so low that, um, that, you know, 893 00:53:37.829 --> 00:53:40.750 just making a few hundred dollars a month was paying 894 00:53:40.769 --> 00:53:43.230 my cost of living. And so there's always something you 895 00:53:43.250 --> 00:53:45.110 can enjoy doing for a few hundred dollars a month. 896 00:53:46.070 --> 00:53:46.289 Yeah. 897 00:53:46.389 --> 00:53:48.559 So that's, that's always been my approach to life. And, 898 00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:53.710 I think then selling the company or running a company 899 00:53:53.730 --> 00:53:58.190 and making millions doing that just made that even easier 900 00:53:58.230 --> 00:53:58.429 to do. 901 00:53:59.449 --> 00:54:02.940 It's really interesting. Derek, once again, thank you so much 902 00:54:02.980 --> 00:54:06.099 for investing your time with me today and all my listeners. 903 00:54:07.619 --> 00:54:12.030 Where would you send them to learn more about you online? 904 00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:19.230 Only one place. Just go to Sivers.org. S-I-V-E-R-S dot O-R-G. 905 00:54:19.250 --> 00:54:23.130 And as you can tell, I do like hearing from people. 906 00:54:23.170 --> 00:54:26.630 This is honestly why I do interviews like this. For one, 907 00:54:26.650 --> 00:54:30.699 I liked Ryan's interesting questions and they were very thought provoking. 908 00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:34.860 But otherwise, I really like hearing from people. So go 909 00:54:34.900 --> 00:54:37.400 to Sivers.org and my email address is out there and 910 00:54:38.099 --> 00:54:39.679 introduce yourself and say hello. 911 00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:43.099 By the way, it is the fastest website on the internet. 912 00:54:44.179 --> 00:54:45.820 It's because it has, I'm a minimalist. 913 00:54:45.900 --> 00:54:48.909 It has absolutely not one single line of code that 914 00:54:48.969 --> 00:54:51.989 doesn't absolutely need to be there. I hand coded the 915 00:54:52.030 --> 00:54:54.590 site myself, every single line. I didn't use any WordPress, 916 00:54:54.650 --> 00:54:57.110 no nothing. I wrote that site by hand and I 917 00:54:57.190 --> 00:54:59.550 didn't add a single line unless it had to be there. 918 00:54:59.610 --> 00:55:00.610 So yeah, it's really damn fast. 919 00:55:00.630 --> 00:55:03.070 If you click on a link, you will be on 920 00:55:03.130 --> 00:55:07.780 that page and like I've never experienced that. It's like, wow, 921 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:10.400 this is the– I thought about, like, could I hire 922 00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:13.329 Derek to do my website? But I'm guessing that's not 923 00:55:13.349 --> 00:55:16.030 something you do. No, I love it. 924 00:55:16.090 --> 00:55:18.730 I wish everybody would do that. You just remove all 925 00:55:18.769 --> 00:55:22.110 the bloat and, you know, the actual– if you think 926 00:55:22.130 --> 00:55:24.449 of the average site and think of why you're on 927 00:55:24.510 --> 00:55:27.030 that site, usually there are some paragraphs of text that 928 00:55:27.070 --> 00:55:29.260 you want to read. And then you think of how 929 00:55:29.340 --> 00:55:33.159 much junk is usually also on that page. Well, just 930 00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:34.840 get rid of all the other junk and just give 931 00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:36.739 them the few paragraphs of text they came for. 932 00:55:37.909 --> 00:55:41.269 Love it. Well, thanks again, man. I would love to. No, 933 00:55:41.289 --> 00:55:43.070 I love it, man. I'd love to continue our dialogue 934 00:55:43.110 --> 00:55:44.030 as we both progress, man. 935 00:55:44.829 --> 00:55:45.329 Thanks, Ryan. 936 00:55:45.389 --> 00:55:49.369 All right. Thanks so much, man. Wow. Very grateful for 937 00:55:49.409 --> 00:55:53.389 Derek's time today. A few of the key parts that 938 00:55:53.829 --> 00:55:56.860 I thought of. Don't be the type of person who 939 00:55:56.949 --> 00:56:01.219 talks about. what they're going to do. Be the type 940 00:56:01.260 --> 00:56:05.099 of person who actually does it. This was spoken about 941 00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:07.119 when we were on the topic of why you should 942 00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:09.880 keep your goals to yourself. Be a person of action, 943 00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:15.170 a person of accomplishment, not someone who walks around talking 944 00:56:15.250 --> 00:56:18.010 and telling everybody about what you're about to do. Then 945 00:56:18.510 --> 00:56:23.380 the importance of the daily journal. It's very valuable to 946 00:56:23.539 --> 00:56:27.619 document your thoughts and beliefs and your future self will 947 00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:32.710 thank your current self. And then leadership is thinking about 948 00:56:32.909 --> 00:56:36.590 what is in the long-term best interest of of the 949 00:56:36.690 --> 00:56:40.469 people you're leading. And that's how Derek strived and worked 950 00:56:40.849 --> 00:56:43.780 to lead within his business. If you enjoyed this one 951 00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:45.079 as much as I did, I would love it if 952 00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:48.139 you would share with a friend or two, perhaps one 953 00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:51.539 that has never listened to The Learning Leader Show. Because 954 00:56:51.579 --> 00:56:55.050 you continue to do that, you give me the opportunity 955 00:56:55.090 --> 00:56:57.389 to do what I love on a daily basis. And 956 00:56:57.449 --> 00:57:01.889 for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. 957 00:57:02.329 --> 00:57:03.250 Talk with you soon. Can't wait.