KEN-VOGEL-DEVILS-ADVOCATE-HOUR-TWO-12-8-2025의 전체 녹취록

--> 00:02:21.740 And by the way, I should say it's not just 34 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:26.340 the foreign influence industry, he really helped shape the lobbying, 35 00:02:26.409 --> 00:02:28.870 the domestic lobbying industry. And the way that he did 36 00:02:28.909 --> 00:02:31.770 this was he and his partners, whose names are in 37 00:02:31.810 --> 00:02:36.110 the name of the firm, they started out as political consultants, 38 00:02:36.169 --> 00:02:39.189 helping the campaigns of a number of members of Congress 39 00:02:39.389 --> 00:02:43.449 and presidential candidates, helping to elect, literally helping to elect presidents, 40 00:02:43.490 --> 00:02:49.039 including Reagan and Bush, Bush one. And what they realized 41 00:02:49.060 --> 00:02:52.590 was like, after you elect the president, Suddenly, you are 42 00:02:52.689 --> 00:02:56.020 in high demand, or the president or members of Congress, 43 00:02:56.340 --> 00:03:00.560 you are in high demand from private sector interests who 44 00:03:00.620 --> 00:03:04.199 are seeking to influence the president or the members of 45 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:09.699 Congress who you helped elect. And so in Washington, before Manafort, those. 46 00:03:09.580 --> 00:03:10.900 Were like two separate lanes. 47 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:14.840 Had one team who you'd pay to help elect you, 48 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:18.180 and then there was another group of people who these 49 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:23.550 private sector interests would pay to influence the people who 50 00:03:23.610 --> 00:03:26.610 just got elected. What Manafort, Stone, Black, and Kelly did 51 00:03:26.650 --> 00:03:28.590 was they brought that together. 52 00:03:28.550 --> 00:03:30.280 Under one roof and said. 53 00:03:30.620 --> 00:03:33.310 We will help elect these people, and then we will 54 00:03:33.340 --> 00:03:38.949 turn around and lobby them on behalf of well-paying clients, 55 00:03:39.069 --> 00:03:42.909 in some cases domestic clients. And what Manafort did is 56 00:03:42.969 --> 00:03:45.509 first he created that industry, and then he decided to 57 00:03:46.189 --> 00:03:50.180 export that industry internationally. So he was not only helping 58 00:03:50.219 --> 00:03:53.360 to elect the Americans, the American public officials, he was 59 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:56.280 helping to elect the foreign public. public officials, by running 60 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:58.659 the campaigns in their countries. And then he would turn 61 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:00.560 around and tell the foreign officials, now you can pay 62 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:04.020 me and I will influence the American president, who I 63 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:08.180 also helped elect, and began sort of serving as an 64 00:04:08.300 --> 00:04:12.740 unofficial back channel between the Reagan and Bush 1 administrations 65 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:17.639 and some of these quite unsavory, repressive regimes around the 66 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:20.879 world who the U.S. had an

interest in sort of 67 00:04:20.980 --> 00:04:25.089 either keeping in check or keeping at least a line 68 00:04:25.129 --> 00:04:26.810 of communication open with. 69 00:04:27.310 --> 00:04:28.649 And, you know, for a long. 70 00:04:28.529 --> 00:04:31.250 Time, Manafort made a lot of money doing this and 71 00:04:31.350 --> 00:04:35.569 disclosed at least some of it under FARA. There became 72 00:04:35.629 --> 00:04:38.889 a point, however, where, and it wasn't just Manafort, where 73 00:04:38.910 --> 00:04:41.329 a lot of the people who were sort of Manafort 74 00:04:41.589 --> 00:04:43.870 copycats doing the same stuff. 75 00:04:44.290 --> 00:04:46.930 Basically started treating FARA as. 76 00:04:46.930 --> 00:04:52.079 More optional and stopped registering as rigorously as their foreign 77 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:56.360 activity under the act with the Justice Department. And this was, 78 00:04:56.500 --> 00:04:59.550 as you point out, what brought him into the crosshairs 79 00:04:59.730 --> 00:05:03.829 of the Justice Department when he reemerged. He sort of 80 00:05:03.889 --> 00:05:08.230 disappeared from U.S. politics, Manafort did, because the foreign work 81 00:05:08.269 --> 00:05:13.189 was so lucrative. And it was only after 2014 when 82 00:05:13.269 --> 00:05:17.500 one of his top paying clients, this strongman Ukrainian president 83 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:21.269 who was aligned with Moscow named Viktor Yanukovych, He was 84 00:05:21.389 --> 00:05:26.160 overthrown by street protesters who were appalled by his corruption 85 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:29.980 and kleptocracy and also his pivot towards Moscow and towards 86 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:34.069 Vladimir Putin. And when he left, Yanukovych ended up fleeing 87 00:05:34.110 --> 00:05:39.170 to Moscow, not coincidentally. Manafort's gravy train also ended and 88 00:05:39.189 --> 00:05:44.110 Manafort needed to sort of reemerge and sort of resuscitate 89 00:05:44.189 --> 00:05:49.689 his U.S. I guess that's the wrong word, refurbish his U.S. 90 00:05:49.810 --> 00:05:52.810 sort of political reputation. So he signs up with the 91 00:05:52.889 --> 00:05:58.370 Trump campaign in 2015, 2016, and ends up being sort 92 00:05:58.410 --> 00:06:01.810 of thrusted to the spotlight again in a way that 93 00:06:01.910 --> 00:06:06.990 was unfortunate for him, coincided with The Justice Department's interest 94 00:06:07.470 --> 00:06:12.120 sort of rekindled foreign interest in foreign influence because the 95 00:06:12.139 --> 00:06:16.350 Trump campaign was seen as a having back channel relations 96 00:06:16.430 --> 00:06:20.449 with with Putin. And so Manafort ends up becoming the 97 00:06:20.589 --> 00:06:24.670 top target of the Mueller investigation, which had as one 98 00:06:24.709 --> 00:06:29.899 of its sort of key arrows in the quiver the 99 00:06:29.980 --> 00:06:33.959 prosecution of people for violating the Foreign Agents Registration Act. 100 00:06:34.019 --> 00:06:37.639 Manafort ultimately was convicted by jury and then pleaded guilty 101 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.490 to other charges, went to jail, and was freed only 102 00:06:41.550 --> 00:06:44.930 at the end of the first Trump administration by a pardon. 103 00:06:46.379 --> 00:06:48.759 One of his protégés is Robert Strick, and we'll come 104 00:06:48.860 --> 00:06:52.139 to Robert Strick and the travels, the adventures of our 105 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:55.339 Barry Lyndon figure. But another one of his protégés, I believe, 106 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:58.439 is Tony Podesta, who's in the same business for the 107 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:02.430 other team, but also is worried about FARA and gives 108 00:07:02.509 --> 00:07:05.810 up his firm for a while, I believe, while his 109 00:07:05.870 --> 00:07:10.750 brother is in the administration, the Obama administration, I believe, 110 00:07:10.769 --> 00:07:14.519 and had a role in the Biden administration. So this 111 00:07:14.620 --> 00:07:18.339 is a skill that Manafort inspires people to copy. 112 00:07:19.220 --> 00:07:23.110 Yeah, and Manafort, in addition to sort of creating a 113 00:07:23.149 --> 00:07:25.769 model for this industry, he was also one of the 114 00:07:26.290 --> 00:07:31.550 early champions of creating like bipartisan teams that would work 115 00:07:31.649 --> 00:07:33.850 for these often unsavory foreign interests. 116 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:37.060 Because he understood that it wasn't enough. 117 00:07:37.139 --> 00:07:40.569 I mean, the Ukraine example with Viktor Yanukovych is a 118 00:07:40.589 --> 00:07:42.629 good one. And that's the one that he recruited Tony 119 00:07:42.670 --> 00:07:45.490 Podesta to work on with him. But he also recruited 120 00:07:45.509 --> 00:07:49.250 at the time, Tony Podesta, you're right, his brother, John 121 00:07:49.300 --> 00:07:51.519 Podesta is in the Obama administration. 122 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:53.540 This is 2010 through 2012. But he also recruited. 123 00:07:56.709 --> 00:08:00.189 Vin Weber, who is a former Republican congressman who was 124 00:08:00.269 --> 00:08:04.129 working with the Romney campaign then and was regarded as 125 00:08:04.209 --> 00:08:09.230 a potential secretary of state if Romney beat Obama in 2012. 126 00:08:09.230 --> 00:08:12.439 So Manafort recognizes, like, it's not enough for me to 127 00:08:12.500 --> 00:08:15.819 just win over the Obama administration, which is currently in power. 128 00:08:15.939 --> 00:08:17.980 I have to have an eye towards what happens if 129 00:08:18.019 --> 00:08:22.360 Republicans retake power. So he recruits Vin Weber to this team. 130 00:08:22.540 --> 00:08:25.730 And And all of the people who he recruited for 131 00:08:25.769 --> 00:08:29.810 this team end up coming under scrutiny from the Justice 132 00:08:29.850 --> 00:08:33.889 Department for having violated FARA. Tony Podesta and Vin Weber 133 00:08:33.970 --> 00:08:40.360 are investigated. They suffer severe reputational consequences. Vin

Weber leaves 134 00:08:40.389 --> 00:08:43.980 his firm. Tony Podesta's firm actually collapses under the sort 135 00:08:44.019 --> 00:08:48.899 of scrutiny of the Justice Department. There's another guy, Greg Craig, who, 136 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:52.429 Gregory Craig, who was the... White House counsel during the 137 00:08:52.500 --> 00:08:55.379 first Obama term, who Manafort also recruited. 138 00:08:55.779 --> 00:08:57.179 He is actually. 139 00:08:58.299 --> 00:09:01.799 Indicted for not violating FARA, but for lying to the 140 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:04.860 Justice Department in the midst of the investigation over whether 141 00:09:04.899 --> 00:09:08.039 he violated FARA. He's acquitted by a jury, which I 142 00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:10.500 think is telling because it shows that this law, the 143 00:09:10.539 --> 00:09:14.379 Foreign Agents Registration Act, created in the late 1930s, is 144 00:09:14.460 --> 00:09:17.620 maybe not up to snuff when it comes to the 145 00:09:17.700 --> 00:09:21.690 modern ways that influence is exerted in the foreign space 146 00:09:21.769 --> 00:09:22.610 in Washington. 147 00:09:22.950 --> 00:09:24.230 But it just goes to show. 148 00:09:24.070 --> 00:09:27.120 You the way that the pendulum had swung when Manafort 149 00:09:27.139 --> 00:09:28.799 and all these other people were doing this type of 150 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:32.899 activity and not registering. Farrow was sort of an afterthought, 151 00:09:32.940 --> 00:09:35.360 and the Justice Department didn't put a lot of resources 152 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.049 into trying to enforce it. And then suddenly there's a 153 00:09:39.090 --> 00:09:41.350 ton of resources and a ton of attention being put 154 00:09:41.429 --> 00:09:45.590 on it. And all these people, the Podestas, Vin Weber's firm, 155 00:09:46.450 --> 00:09:50.840 They're all retroactively trying to bring themselves into compliance and 156 00:09:51.220 --> 00:09:53.820 FARA filing for work that they had done in many 157 00:09:53.860 --> 00:09:56.809 cases years ago in order to try to avoid the 158 00:09:56.889 --> 00:10:00.220 wrath of the Justice Department and these prosecutors, some did 159 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:04.379 it successfully. Others like Manafort went to jail. But I 160 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:06.440 think there was a period of time when there were 161 00:10:06.460 --> 00:10:08.309 a lot of people in this industry who were quite 162 00:10:08.370 --> 00:10:12.529 scared that the days of the Wild West had ended 163 00:10:12.590 --> 00:10:15.610 and the bill was going to come due in a 164 00:10:15.629 --> 00:10:17.590 way that could redound to their detriment. 165 00:10:17.710 --> 00:10:21.460 Let's travel to Africa. Ken Vogel is the author of 166 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:27.600 Devil's Advocates. This is the book. I'm John Batchelor. I'm 167 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:30.639 John Batchelor with Ken Vogel, who's written in a highly entertaining, 168 00:10:30.740 --> 00:10:35.399 revelatory book about lobbying in Washington for foreign powers, especially 169 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.320 if they are rascals, scoundrels, devils. Here we are with 170 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:41.740 Robert Strick, a man who dropped out of college, who 171 00:10:41.779 --> 00:10:44.700 dropped out of high school, who never wrote a good 172 00:10:44.779 --> 00:10:47.360 check that you could count on the first time. who's 173 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:49.679 walked away from all of the leases that he has, 174 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:53.509 as far as I can see, who basically tells a story, 175 00:10:53.570 --> 00:10:55.470 and if you believe it, he's happy. If you don't, 176 00:10:55.509 --> 00:10:58.490 he'll tell you another story. But he's actually in an 177 00:10:59.409 --> 00:11:05.450 armored Toyota, driven by a security guard he's hired, named Douglas, 178 00:11:06.289 --> 00:11:10.350 and he's traveling into the capital of Somalia, called Mogadishu, 179 00:11:10.409 --> 00:11:13.960 to the offices of a man named Fromage, that's in 180 00:11:14.129 --> 00:11:18.019 Namda Gare, He's an American citizen who is from Somalia, 181 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.899 and he's been put in place as the president of Somalia, 182 00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:24.509 a war-torn land. The city of Mogadishu has been under 183 00:11:24.549 --> 00:11:29.570 permanent siege by jihadists for many years, and the State 184 00:11:29.590 --> 00:11:32.750 Department wants to know where its money is going. So 185 00:11:33.730 --> 00:11:39.110 the fromage, the American citizen president who can pull the 186 00:11:39.129 --> 00:11:41.250 ripcord any time and go back to America, I believe 187 00:11:41.289 --> 00:11:43.169 he was in Buffalo the last time we checked on him, 188 00:11:44.269 --> 00:11:48.730 before being the president of Somalia, wants to make good 189 00:11:48.769 --> 00:11:51.190 relations with the White House so that the money will 190 00:11:51.230 --> 00:11:55.850 keep flowing. And in this armored vehicle is Robert Strike. 191 00:11:56.230 --> 00:12:00.320 In the vehicle following is a young woman named Fontaine Rose, 192 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:05.200 who is his guide because she's a professional foreign policy expert, 193 00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:08.039 has served on the National Security Council, is now at 194 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:12.240 the Atlantic Council. What is the mission for our hero 195 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:13.200 at this moment, Kent? 196 00:12:14.659 --> 00:12:16.899 Yeah, I think you set it up pretty well there, John. 197 00:12:16.980 --> 00:12:22.299 The Somalis are nervous that the spigot of U.S. 198 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:23.320 Foreign aid and U.S. 199 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:26.620 Military aid is going to be shut off under the 200 00:12:26.659 --> 00:12:30.000 Trump administration. Of course, Trump came in with this America 201 00:12:30.059 --> 00:12:34.980 first agenda, you know, suggesting he's outright stating that he 202 00:12:35.019 -->

00:12:35.429 was going to. 203 00:12:36.149 --> 00:12:37.690 Scale back foreign aid. 204 00:12:37.909 --> 00:12:39.850 This is first term, still first term. 205 00:12:39.870 --> 00:12:40.309 Yes, correct. 206 00:12:40.350 --> 00:12:43.009 The first term. This is actually still 2018. I think 207 00:12:43.049 --> 00:12:48.539 it's late 2018. And so the government of Somalia is 208 00:12:48.620 --> 00:12:54.279 quite nervous about this. And it's pivotal to their continued 209 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:58.169 existence and ability to fight off these terrorists, these Islamic 210 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:02.610 terrorists who are threatening the government of Somalia. 211 00:13:02.649 --> 00:13:03.950 They need U.S. 212 00:13:03.970 --> 00:13:09.090 Support and assistance and military assistance and training. And so 213 00:13:09.370 --> 00:13:14.110 the possibility that they might lose that spurs them to 214 00:13:14.250 --> 00:13:19.250 look for someone who could help them improve their relations 215 00:13:19.330 --> 00:13:22.929 with Washington under Trump. And they turn to Robert Strick 216 00:13:22.980 --> 00:13:26.000 and they sign his firm, Sonoran Policy Group, to a 217 00:13:26.059 --> 00:13:29.840 contract that's worth $ 100, 000 a month to do that. That's 218 00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:34.019 a pretty good contract. And so Strick prides himself on 219 00:13:34.460 --> 00:13:36.980 not being one of these lobbyists who just sits around 220 00:13:37.059 --> 00:13:41.159 in an expensive Italian suit at Cafe Milano, one of 221 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:45.720 the CNBC restaurants in Georgetown that a lot of lobbyists 222 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:48.789 and public officials go to, although it should be noted 223 00:13:48.830 --> 00:13:51.889 that Strick does spend a lot of money there. But 224 00:13:51.929 --> 00:13:53.889 he also wears a cowboy hat and likes to see 225 00:13:53.909 --> 00:13:56.129 himself as an outsider, and so he is wearing this 226 00:13:56.190 --> 00:14:00.100 cowboy hat as he rides in this armored Toyota, being 227 00:14:00.139 --> 00:14:01.200 driven by. 228 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:04.169 Security guards who he has. 229 00:14:04.179 --> 00:14:11.110 Retained to help him get into the president's palace in Mogadishu. 230 00:14:11.629 --> 00:14:14.809 And as they pull up to a checkpoint outside the palace, 231 00:14:15.230 --> 00:14:21.830 there is some gunfire, and Strick is quite panic-stricken. He 232 00:14:21.889 --> 00:14:24.870 actually calls his wife from the backseat, thinking that this 233 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:26.610 is maybe the end of him. 234 00:14:26.970 --> 00:14:29.090 The people who are with him assure him, no, this 235 00:14:29.129 --> 00:14:32.370 is sort of the way it goes, you know, in Mogadishu. 236 00:14:32.429 --> 00:14:35.370 And Kirsten Fontenot is the woman who you mentioned, who 237 00:14:36.669 --> 00:14:40.120 is a sort of sophisticated, experienced player in this space, 238 00:14:40.500 --> 00:14:43.080 ends up telling me later, yeah, I don't remember it 239 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.899 being quite as dire as Robert Strick recounted it. But 240 00:14:47.179 --> 00:14:50.539 she does affirm that, like, there was gunfire here at 241 00:14:50.590 --> 00:14:54.320 this checkpoint. They ultimately get in. to the president's palace. 242 00:14:54.340 --> 00:14:56.720 They get through the checkpoint without harm. They get into 243 00:14:56.740 --> 00:15:00.259 the president's palace and they talk to him and Strick 244 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:04.860 is his charming self and makes a bunch of promises 245 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:07.799 about what they can do to help Somalia during the 246 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:08.879 Trump administration. 247 00:15:09.450 --> 00:15:10.990 They keep getting paid for a while. 248 00:15:11.769 --> 00:15:15.330 Ultimately, the president of Somalia decides that they're not getting 249 00:15:15.350 --> 00:15:17.389 what they want, even though they do get some things. 250 00:15:17.769 --> 00:15:22.149 I should say, when we talk about questions about Strick's effectiveness... 251 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.279 They do end up keeping– there was one point at 252 00:15:25.299 --> 00:15:27.730 which the Trump administration shut off the flow of money 253 00:15:27.769 --> 00:15:29.889 because of the concerns that this money was actually just 254 00:15:29.929 --> 00:15:35.929 going to the terrorists. It's– I'm forgetting the name of 255 00:15:36.009 --> 00:15:40.360 the– oh, Boko Haram is the name of the– oh, sorry, Al-Shabaab. 256 00:15:40.549 --> 00:15:41.919 No, this is Al-Shabaab. 257 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.919 Right, so the Trump administration shut off the flow of money. 258 00:15:46.179 --> 00:15:49.470 They end up turning it back on. Strick claims credit 259 00:15:49.509 --> 00:15:51.870 for that. It's unclear with a lot of these things, 260 00:15:51.889 --> 00:15:55.070 I should say. It's unclear as to like the cause 261 00:15:55.129 --> 00:15:57.889 and effect and whether the lobbying was the definitive thing 262 00:15:57.929 --> 00:16:00.710 or not. But clearly the Somalis thought that they were 263 00:16:00.750 --> 00:16:05.100 getting something from Strick before– and they got this money restored, 264 00:16:05.139 --> 00:16:07.320 this flow of money restored before they ended up moving 265 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:08.279 on to a different lobbyist. 266 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:12.279 And the same scene without the gunfire happens in Caracas 267 00:16:12.340 --> 00:16:16.399 when Strick goes to meet Maduro. the dictator and illegitimate 268 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:21.389 president of Venezuela. Strick has a style here. He goes 269 00:16:21.490 --> 00:16:26.190 where there is considered to be a lack of virtue. 270 00:16:26.429 --> 00:16:29.570 I'm being diplomatic here. At the bottom of the list 271 00:16:29.669 --> 00:16:36.320 of nations for fair play and transparency and nonviolence. And 272 00:16:36.379 --> 00:16:39.259 that is

where the pickings can be good. And Strick 273 00:16:39.379 --> 00:16:42.059 makes the case that he's a private diplomat. It's not 274 00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:44.080 a bad case. I don't believe it, but it is 275 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.870 a case he makes, Ken. We've got a minute. 276 00:16:46.950 --> 00:16:47.490 Yeah, that's right. 277 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:49.610 And I think this does harken back to sort of 278 00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:53.629 the highest and best examples of like where this industry 279 00:16:53.690 --> 00:16:57.049 and where this type of representation can be useful and 280 00:16:57.129 --> 00:17:00.909 can serve a purpose that is in the public interest. Manafort, 281 00:17:00.950 --> 00:17:04.619 for example– did serve as a back channel between the 282 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:08.559 Reagan and Bush administrations, and particularly the CIA during those administrations, 283 00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:11.980 and a number of foreign leaders who were seen as 284 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:16.160 bulwarks against communism. Strick is trying to recreate that for 285 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.829 the Trump era. And in the Trump era, it's a 286 00:17:18.869 --> 00:17:22.329 lot more about personality and appealing to Trump personally than 287 00:17:22.390 --> 00:17:25.150 it is about stopping communism. So one of the places 288 00:17:25.190 --> 00:17:27.829 where Strick pitches his services is in Venezuela. He does 289 00:17:27.869 --> 00:17:34.509 get a one-on-one meeting. With Maduro. 290 00:17:34.650 --> 00:17:37.650 We need to look in on the Biden administration. Ken Vogel, 291 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:41.559 Devil's Advocates, The Hidden Story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden, 292 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:44.079 and all the rest of the team. I'm John Batchelor. 293 00:17:46.779 --> 00:17:49.539 This is CBS Eye on the World. I'm John Batchelor 294 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:52.380 with Ken Vogel, the New York Times investigative reporter, and 295 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:57.809 his new book, Devil's Advocates. It's highly entertaining. It's very revelatory. 296 00:17:58.569 --> 00:18:02.009 It's not in any direction. It's in all directions in Washington. 297 00:18:02.450 --> 00:18:05.789 This might be how the swamp works. It might be. 298 00:18:06.390 --> 00:18:10.809 And the swamp is entertaining. The hidden stories of Rudy Giuliani, 299 00:18:10.890 --> 00:18:14.490 Hunter Biden, and the Washington insiders on the payrolls of 300 00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:18.190 corrupt foreign interests. If you go to Washington in foreign 301 00:18:18.230 --> 00:18:21.289 policy and you don't come out rich, what's wrong with you? 302 00:18:21.430 --> 00:18:23.650 It's the question that gets asked again and again as 303 00:18:23.710 --> 00:18:26.490 I read this book. We now go to the Biden administration, 304 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:31.480 elected in 2020. Yes, there are problems there. for the 305 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:35.900 Trump administration, January 6th, and Rudy Giuliani and claims of 306 00:18:35.980 --> 00:18:39.880 fraud that were fraudulent claims. We're going to concentrate on 307 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.710 how the Democrats do foreign interests and lobbying and connections. 308 00:18:45.670 --> 00:18:49.829 They don't hide it as in any fashion. They actually 309 00:18:49.869 --> 00:18:53.470 give it titles. The people who move back and forth, 310 00:18:53.670 --> 00:18:55.609 the New York Times has used the metaphor for years. 311 00:18:55.690 --> 00:19:00.640 It's very evocative. Revolving door. You can be a director 312 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:03.559 of intelligence here, and you can be a member of 313 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:07.980 a lobbying firm there. It's more evident when you do 314 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.240 it putting your hand out asking for cash. I don't 315 00:19:11.259 --> 00:19:14.779 believe that's the way the Biden administration team does it, 316 00:19:14.859 --> 00:19:17.440 but they come in and out. We mentioned the Podestas. 317 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.410 The one I'm concentrating on, Ken, is Anita Dunn, who 318 00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:27.769 I believe was a prominent player in the Obama administration, 319 00:19:27.809 --> 00:19:32.829 first and second, and now reemerges into the Biden administration, 320 00:19:32.950 --> 00:19:36.559 and she's connected to a very large, successful, and prominent firm. 321 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:37.720 Do I say that correctly? 322 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.220 Yeah, I mean, she is a founding member and one 323 00:19:41.259 --> 00:19:43.420 of the name members of this firm, although they use 324 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:46.490 the initials, so they don't use her name, but it's 325 00:19:46.509 --> 00:19:49.960 called SKDK, and she is the D, Anita D. 326 00:19:50.019 --> 00:19:50.700 Dunn is. 327 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:54.200 And this firm helped, I mean, it's not dissimilar from 328 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.299 the Manafort model that we talked about earlier. This firm 329 00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:00.579 and Anita Dunn helped run the Biden campaign. They also helped, 330 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.529 you know, run the Obama campaign. But for our purposes, 331 00:20:04.609 --> 00:20:07.990 you know, she was a key player in the Biden 332 00:20:08.029 --> 00:20:13.599 campaign and and through her firm. And when Biden won, 333 00:20:13.630 --> 00:20:16.470 her firm suddenly was in high demand, as you might imagine, 334 00:20:16.549 --> 00:20:22.960 from corporate domestic players, corporate foreign players, and foreign governments. 335 00:20:23.299 --> 00:20:26.819 And they did quite well, and they represented a number 336 00:20:26.859 --> 00:20:28.980 of them. And Anita Dunn went into the White House 337 00:20:29.460 --> 00:20:33.910 and did not disclose, interestingly, much about her work in 338 00:20:33.930 --> 00:20:40.119 the private sector, because this firm, SKDK, did not register 339 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:41.220 under FARA. 340

00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.579 And seldom registered. They registered some stuff, I should say. 341 00:20:45.539 --> 00:20:47.869 But they largely said that the work that they were 342 00:20:47.910 --> 00:20:52.069 doing was not lobbying. In fact, it was just providing advice, 343 00:20:52.109 --> 00:20:55.650 strategic advice, on how to navigate Washington and how to 344 00:20:55.690 --> 00:20:57.369 navigate governments around the world. 345 00:20:57.430 --> 00:21:02.150 And that was quite lucrative for her. And she wasn't alone. 346 00:21:02.230 --> 00:21:04.940 There were a number of other firms that were. 347 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:07.200 West Exec, I believe, is another one to mention. 348 00:21:07.869 --> 00:21:10.170 Yeah, that's a good one because this was a firm 349 00:21:10.190 --> 00:21:13.890 that I think is illustrative of this revolving door. It 350 00:21:13.930 --> 00:21:18.039 was started by a number of prominent Democratic officials right 351 00:21:18.220 --> 00:21:22.359 after Trump won. So this is at the end of 352 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.240 the Obama administration. A number of these people had worked 353 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:26.339 in the Obama administration. 354 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:28.059 And when Trump. 355 00:21:28.220 --> 00:21:30.420 Upset Hillary Clinton, a lot of these people who had 356 00:21:30.460 --> 00:21:34.519 been probably well positioned to become officials in the Clinton 357 00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:40.420 administration that wasn't, instead ended up starting a firm on 358 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:43.660 the outside called West Exec, which is named for the 359 00:21:43.779 --> 00:21:48.200 road that goes between the West Executive Office building, which 360 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:51.700 is a sort of White House spillover annex, and the 361 00:21:51.740 --> 00:21:52.259 White House. 362 00:21:52.700 --> 00:21:53.900 And that was intentional. 363 00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:56.779 That was to signal, hey, these are people who have 364 00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:00.099 access in both of these places, the West Exec Office 365 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:04.109 building and also the White House, and understand how things work. 366 00:22:04.170 --> 00:22:06.170 And so the founders of it were none other than 367 00:22:06.210 --> 00:22:09.700 Tony Blinken, who, you know, played a prominent role in 368 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:12.480 the Obama administration, of course, would go on to become 369 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:17.240 Biden's Secretary of State, as well as Michelle Flournoy, who 370 00:22:17.259 --> 00:22:21.079 was rumored to be the possible Defense Secretary under, well, 371 00:22:21.099 --> 00:22:24.539 you know, probably under Hillary Clinton's administration, but certainly under 372 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:24.740 Joe Biden. 373 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:26.609 Oh, let me read some of the lists, Ken. You've 374 00:22:26.619 --> 00:22:30.069 done a wonderful job for us here. Avril Haines, Director 375 00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:34.890 of National Intelligence, becomes DNI. Chris Inglis becomes National Cyber Director. 376 00:22:35.029 --> 00:22:39.009 Barbara Leaf becomes Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs. 377 00:22:39.150 --> 00:22:44.190 Lisa Monaco becomes Deputy Attorney General. Matt Olson becomes Assistant 378 00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:48.400 Attorney General for the National Security Division. Eli Ratner becomes 379 00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:53.339 Assistant Secretary of Defense for Indo-Pacific Security Affairs. Daniel Shapiro. 380 00:22:53.980 --> 00:22:58.829 I could go on. Good heavens, Ken. The Republicans pretend 381 00:22:59.289 --> 00:23:03.700 that they're doing influence peddling. the Democratic model is you've 382 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:05.039 got to go to work at the White House, and 383 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:05.819 then it's okay. 384 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:11.859 Yeah, and the argument here, John, is this is the 385 00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:15.480 permanent professional class of Washington. What would you have these 386 00:23:15.549 --> 00:23:19.009 people do when they're no longer in power? 387 00:23:19.109 --> 00:23:22.809 Should they just retire? Or can they find. 388 00:23:22.549 --> 00:23:27.869 Ways to use their expertise that are financially beneficial and 389 00:23:27.950 --> 00:23:31.789 rewarding for them that sort of, you know, serve the, 390 00:23:31.970 --> 00:23:35.849 they would say, serve this purpose of like creating, you know, 391 00:23:35.890 --> 00:23:39.269 a back channel or helping to advise these clients on 392 00:23:39.309 --> 00:23:41.170 how to navigate the U.S. government. 393 00:23:41.210 --> 00:23:44.380 But like clearly there is an influence peddling element here. 394 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:47.079 If you look at some of the clientele, they include everyone. 395 00:23:47.339 --> 00:23:50.640 I'm talking about West Exec Advisors now. They include everyone 396 00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:55.059 from Boeing, the major defense contractor, to Israeli artificial intelligence 397 00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:00.250 and facial recognition companies. to the Japanese conglomerate SoftBank, the 398 00:24:00.289 --> 00:24:06.670 Royal Bank of Canada, the British-Australian mining conglomerate Rio Tinto. 399 00:24:06.710 --> 00:24:10.369 So these are clients that want to know how to 400 00:24:10.430 --> 00:24:15.309 navigate Washington and see great value in paying someone or 401 00:24:15.369 --> 00:24:18.549 paying a firm that is staffed by people who have 402 00:24:18.609 --> 00:24:23.029 experience inside of the administration. And even if they're not 403 00:24:23.170 --> 00:24:27.400 registering under FARA or formally lobbying, They are doing something 404 00:24:27.500 --> 00:24:30.099 akin to that, and this is the way that the 405 00:24:30.299 --> 00:24:34.700 influence industry at large, and particularly the foreign influence industry, works. 406 00:24:34.869 --> 00:24:35.670 It's valuable. 407 00:24:36.089 -->

00:24:38.690 It's more valuable to have people who have ties to 408 00:24:38.710 --> 00:24:42.470 people inside or an understanding of how things work inside than. 409 00:24:42.369 --> 00:24:44.890 It is to pay people who are political. 410 00:24:44.490 --> 00:24:48.819 Science professors or have a sort of more academic understanding 411 00:24:48.859 --> 00:24:53.319 of the way that Washington works. And there's... Many a 412 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:56.769 vacation home on the eastern shore of Maryland that has 413 00:24:56.809 --> 00:24:59.250 been paid for are private school tuitions for the kids 414 00:24:59.349 --> 00:25:01.970 of people who go in and out of government. And 415 00:25:02.009 --> 00:25:04.069 when they're out of government, it's time for them to 416 00:25:04.130 --> 00:25:07.970 collect these big paydays at places like West Exec Strategies. 417 00:25:08.170 --> 00:25:11.279 Hunter Biden, I want to tie the bow on this one. 418 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:15.299 It comes to a pardon by the president for Hunter Biden, 419 00:25:15.339 --> 00:25:18.039 for his brother Jim, I believe for the whole family. 420 00:25:19.069 --> 00:25:22.450 because of the concern that there is a compromise here 421 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.740 that is very deep and can be found out. That 422 00:25:25.859 --> 00:25:28.200 is known to the American people at the time, so 423 00:25:28.220 --> 00:25:32.220 I'm not worried about that. The question is, the Hunter 424 00:25:32.259 --> 00:25:36.539 Biden story has some loose ends that were not tied up. 425 00:25:37.420 --> 00:25:40.799 The Chinese influence operation, did we ever get any clarity 426 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:45.160 about where the money went and that the money stopped 427 00:25:45.970 --> 00:25:48.490 and that Hunter Biden no longer represents any of that? 428 00:25:49.509 --> 00:25:51.839 Yeah, they I mean, they we do know that the 429 00:25:51.910 --> 00:25:55.380 Bidens were that Hunter Biden in particular was paid millions 430 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.339 of dollars by these two Chinese entities that were 100 percent. 431 00:25:59.380 --> 00:26:01.750 I mean, you know, they were 100 percent part of 432 00:26:01.849 --> 00:26:05.769 the sort of economic influence operation of the Chinese government, 433 00:26:05.789 --> 00:26:10.559 the Belt and Road Initiative, it was called. And. You know, 434 00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:14.319 there is, I think, some convincing reporting, including my book, 435 00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:20.140 but also by others, including this Michael Isikoff, legendary Washington, D.C. reporter, 436 00:26:20.549 --> 00:26:25.329 that this, you know, came as and appeared to parallel 437 00:26:25.990 --> 00:26:28.970 real influence operations that the Chinese were conducting in other 438 00:26:28.990 --> 00:26:32.150 parts of the world, including Africa. It's notable, John, that 439 00:26:32.430 --> 00:26:34.849 the guy Patrick Coe, who we talked about, who Hunter 440 00:26:34.869 -->

00:26:38.490 Biden referred to as the expletive spy chief of China. 441 00:26:38.980 --> 00:26:42.259 Like he was charged in the U.S. for violations of 442 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.240 the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act that stem from claims. 443 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:46.980 He was convicted. He wasn't just charged. 444 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:52.259 Claims that he was bribing the families of African leaders 445 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:56.539 on behalf of this Chinese entity to, you know, create 446 00:26:56.619 --> 00:27:02.170 favor and potentially, you know, start infrastructure projects in those countries. 447 00:27:02.230 --> 00:27:05.490 That sounds like a pretty similar fact pattern to what 448 00:27:05.569 --> 00:27:09.660 we saw yesterday. with the Chinese payments to the Biden. So, um, 449 00:27:09.859 --> 00:27:13.299 you're right to point out that the pardon absolves Hunter 450 00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:16.619 and inoculates Hunter is a better word against, against charges 451 00:27:16.660 --> 00:27:18.740 that could stem from this. And it's not at all 452 00:27:18.779 --> 00:27:23.029 a coincidence that the dates that were provided in the, 453 00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:26.680 in the pardon for any potential criminal activity that could 454 00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:29.980 have occurred between the date that they provided is the 455 00:27:30.140 --> 00:27:33.940 spring of 2014 and the present, the present being the 456 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:38.940 end of the Biden administration. Um, that that period is 457 00:27:39.019 --> 00:27:43.079 when Hunter Biden was starting his most aggressive pursuit of 458 00:27:43.339 --> 00:27:47.940 foreign paydays, including in Ukraine, as well as Romania. And 459 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:52.789 I think that there was real concern, and there should 460 00:27:52.809 --> 00:27:57.250 have been real concern, about Hunter Biden's vulnerabilities to a 461 00:27:57.829 --> 00:28:00.690 charge under the Foreign Agents Registration Act, which of course 462 00:28:00.730 --> 00:28:05.170 now cannot come because he's been pardoned preemptively for anything. 463 00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:09.140 And Robert Strick, we need to mention that he throws 464 00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:13.559 several parties at the occasion of the victory for President 465 00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:18.160 Trump in 24 and the inauguration. And he talks about 466 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:20.819 giving lots of money to the inauguration committee. In other words, 467 00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:23.779 he remains Robert Strick, the man we love, the character 468 00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:26.180 we can't take our eyes off of. And when he 469 00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:29.349 got to the part that he's pitching the Taliban, that 470 00:28:29.390 --> 00:28:31.289 was almost a bridge too far for me, but I've 471 00:28:31.329 --> 00:28:33.890 recovered myself, Ken. Do we know what happened to it, 472 00:28:33.990 --> 00:28:34.529 that pitch? 473 00:28:35.509 --> 00:28:38.970 Yeah, they either didn't hire anyone or went elsewhere. Of course, 474 00:28:39.019 --> 00:28:41.759 there's a lot of issues in play there with sanctions 475 00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:45.599 that make it hard to collect paydays from the most 476 00:28:45.819 --> 00:28:49.460 sort of unsavory of foreign interest because the U.S. government 477 00:28:49.529 --> 00:28:52.410 ends up limiting their ability to access the U.S. financial system. 478 00:28:52.769 --> 00:28:57.329 That said, this became in the second term. This became 479 00:28:57.509 --> 00:29:01.329 Strick's sort of meal ticket is representing sanctioned figures by 480 00:29:01.549 --> 00:29:04.690 offering to help get them off of sanctions. So among 481 00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:08.630 his clients now are these two Russian executives for the 482 00:29:08.690 --> 00:29:15.900 Russian state government-owned defense contractor, Rostec, who– Rostec is supplying 483 00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:18.900 the Russian army in its invasion of Ukraine. 484 00:29:18.980 --> 00:29:20.519 It is Ukraine. It's Ukraine. 485 00:29:21.349 --> 00:29:25.009 Yeah, I mean these are people who are not– it's 486 00:29:25.130 --> 00:29:28.700 difficult to find a lens through which to view them 487 00:29:29.019 --> 00:29:31.740 that is not– does not lead to the conclusion that 488 00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:32.660 they're bad guys. 489 00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:35.789 I think they're called the enemy in the old-fashioned way. 490 00:29:36.970 --> 00:29:40.630 So Strick's claim there is that, like, no, they too, like, 491 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.380 it could be useful to the U.S. if they were 492 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.880 to have sanctions lifted on them because they could potentially, 493 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.859 there could be goodwill there, or they could be, you know, 494 00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:53.160 useful for parts of the Russian economy that are more Western-facing, 495 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:57.759 that might create goodwill with the U.S. It's a tortured argument, 496 00:29:57.779 --> 00:30:00.240 but it's one that Strick has continued to make as 497 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:04.539 he has moved further sort of towards the, he's become 498 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:11.299 an advocate for increasingly more devilish clients, including these Russians, 499 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:12.490 and he's still at it. 500 00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:16.359 Kenneth Fogel is the author of Devil's Advocates, The Hidden 501 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:19.869 Story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden, and the Washington Insiders 502 00:30:20.380 --> 00:30:23.349 on the Payrolls of Corrupt Foreign Interests. When we come back, 503 00:30:24.170 --> 00:30:27.029 Kenneth learned a lot on this trail, and it continues. 504 00:30:27.529 --> 00:30:29.880 So what is to be done? And what have we learned? 505 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:33.019 This is CBS Eye on the World. I'm John Batchelor. 506 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:38.569 I'm John Batchelor with the New York Times

investigative reporter 507 00:30:38.609 --> 00:30:42.069 Ken Vogel. His book is Devil's Advocates. It's the story 508 00:30:42.170 --> 00:30:45.170 of all the administrations in easy reach reaching back into 509 00:30:45.210 --> 00:30:50.430 the 20th century. And the way the players, the power players, 510 00:30:50.509 --> 00:30:53.849 the ones that are at very expensive restaurants and have 511 00:30:53.930 --> 00:30:58.890 horse farms in Virginia, and have paydays that are millions 512 00:30:58.930 --> 00:31:05.269 of dollars, how they conduct their affairs in the 21st century. FARA, 513 00:31:05.509 --> 00:31:07.630 the law that was passed to restrict it in the 514 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.559 20th century, is clearly inadequate. It can be flouted easily. 515 00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:14.099 You can double talk. You can hire somebody as an 516 00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.539 interlocutor for the source of money. So you're not directly involved. 517 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:21.640 You're at a distance. All of this adds up to, 518 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:24.240 is there a solution or is this the way the 519 00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:27.710 world is? Ken, you've watched this again and again, and 520 00:31:27.750 --> 00:31:32.069 the excuses given, I roughly, I generalize on both sides. 521 00:31:32.670 --> 00:31:35.849 There was nothing wrong here. This was a political persecution. 522 00:31:36.009 --> 00:31:37.890 It had to do with the election, not with the 523 00:31:37.990 --> 00:31:41.519 facts of the matter. And the Justice Department is being weaponized. 524 00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:44.880 That was a Manafort argument. That was a Biden, a 525 00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:47.460 Hunter Biden argument. I imagine it could be an argument 526 00:31:47.500 --> 00:31:50.619 of any one of these lobbyists. How do we respond 527 00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:51.240 to that, Ken? 528 00:31:52.779 --> 00:31:56.970 Well, I think that Unfortunately, it's getting harder to offer 529 00:31:56.990 --> 00:32:01.250 a response that is convincing to the American public, both 530 00:32:01.309 --> 00:32:05.950 because there's just been so seemingly unending string of scandals 531 00:32:05.990 --> 00:32:08.309 that have like come out of this space, this space 532 00:32:08.369 --> 00:32:13.779 being the confluence of U.S. government and politics and foreign 533 00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:18.680 interests and foreign paydays. And so, you know, Trump in 534 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:23.519 particular has, you know, appears to have successfully convinced his 535 00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:30.089 supporters that you cannot trust law enforcement entities to prosecute 536 00:32:30.140 --> 00:32:35.150 without politics to follow the facts and prosecute cases on 537 00:32:35.210 --> 00:32:38.440 the merits. And we saw that with his reelection. I mean, 538 00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:41.380 he was running in 2024. 539 00:32:41.569 --> 00:32:42.950 As he put it, you. 540 00:32:42.910 --> 00:32:48.250 Know, your retribution, like he was openly campaigning, you know, 541 00:32:48.390 --> 00:32:52.579 as seeking retribution against people who had prosecuted him and 542 00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:55.619 his supporters. And what we see is this being embraced 543 00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:01.839 around the world by, you know, Victor Orban or officials. 544 00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:05.509 And I write about the tease at the very end. 545 00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:12.359 that Rudy Giuliani went to meet with a dictator in 546 00:33:12.460 --> 00:33:15.980 the Republic of Srpska, which is an autonomous region in 547 00:33:16.420 --> 00:33:21.920 Bosnia and Herzegovina, a Serbian region, where the leader, the 548 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:25.430 Serbian nationalist named Milorad Dodek, was being prosecuted by courts 549 00:33:25.529 --> 00:33:28.970 in Bosnia and was sanctioned by the U.S. government for 550 00:33:29.029 --> 00:33:32.769 significant corruption and for flouting the Dayton Peace Accords. Well, 551 00:33:32.809 --> 00:33:35.670 Rudy Giuliani goes over there to work for him. Sorry, 552 00:33:35.710 --> 00:33:36.589 to host. 553 00:33:36.430 --> 00:33:37.250 Him on a podcast. 554 00:33:37.490 --> 00:33:41.099 Paul Manafort ends up going over there to work for him. 555 00:33:41.390 --> 00:33:42.440 Some of the same characters. 556 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.000 And their argument now on behalf of this guy is that, no, 557 00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:49.660 you cannot believe that the charges here by the Bosnian 558 00:33:49.700 --> 00:33:53.440 court or the rationale by the U.S. government for sanctioning 559 00:33:53.500 --> 00:33:57.119 this guy are valid. In fact, he's being persecuted because 560 00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:00.460 he's a right-wing populist, you know, like Trump, because he 561 00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:04.690 supports Trump. And least you'd think that that argument is 562 00:34:04.769 --> 00:34:09.670 just about framing, like, you know, political positioning. Just last month, 563 00:34:10.010 --> 00:34:13.389 the U.S. government lifted the sanctions on this guy and 564 00:34:13.429 --> 00:34:16.250 a number of his supporters as a result of, or 565 00:34:16.269 --> 00:34:18.510 if not as a result of, at least at the 566 00:34:18.570 --> 00:34:22.150 same time as there is this sophisticated lobbying and influence 567 00:34:22.190 --> 00:34:25.230 campaign being launched by people who are close to Trump, 568 00:34:25.329 --> 00:34:29.469 making arguments that clearly resonate with him such that it 569 00:34:29.590 --> 00:34:33.920 is just harder and harder, I think, to enforce these 570 00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:38.719 types of laws without generating skepticism from their targets and 571 00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:41.730 from the supporters of their targets. And I should add, John, 572 00:34:41.769 --> 00:34:45.769 that we're not even really trying anymore because Pam Bondi, 573 00:34:46.090 --> 00:34:51.110 President Trump's attorney general, herself a former foreign

lobbyist, registered 574 00:34:51.170 --> 00:34:52.780 under FARA for the state of Congress. 575 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.239 So the chief of staff was a foreign lobbyist. 576 00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:01.059 Susie Wiles was a lobbyist as well. She, she was, she, right. 577 00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:03.760 She was registered under fire for Nigeria, although she said 578 00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:05.429 that she, uh, did not. 579 00:35:05.250 --> 00:35:07.889 Actually, let me introduce you to Nigeria. We've got a 580 00:35:07.909 --> 00:35:08.510 problem there. 581 00:35:09.449 --> 00:35:09.750 Right. 582 00:35:09.989 --> 00:35:10.289 Yeah. 583 00:35:10.349 --> 00:35:12.889 So, um, and she's, and the. 584 00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:16.349 President is making remarks about bombing Nigeria while his chief 585 00:35:16.389 --> 00:35:20.989 of staff registered for Nigeria. Huh? I mean, I get confused. 586 00:35:21.070 --> 00:35:22.070 My head goes around. 587 00:35:22.750 --> 00:35:23.699 No, it's a good point. 588 00:35:23.860 --> 00:35:29.429 Um, I would just say to continue the thread on 589 00:35:30.949 --> 00:35:37.590 Pam Bondi, one of her first moves as Attorney General 590 00:35:37.989 --> 00:35:40.789 was to announce. 591 00:35:40.489 --> 00:35:43.679 The decriminalization of FARA. That is that the U.S. 592 00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:48.260 Government would not allocate significant prosecutorial resources to bringing criminal 593 00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:52.670 charges related to violations of FARA. And so If anything, 594 00:35:52.730 --> 00:35:55.650 I think the pendulum is swinging back towards the wild, 595 00:35:55.690 --> 00:35:56.130 wild west. 596 00:35:56.170 --> 00:35:57.369 And by the way, I should correct myself. 597 00:35:57.690 --> 00:36:01.920 Susie Wiles had registered for the People's Democratic Party of Nigeria, 598 00:36:01.940 --> 00:36:03.019 so not for the government. 599 00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:08.460 Okay. No, nice detail. That's helpful because Nigeria would be Tunubu, 600 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:14.050 who is the boss, and it's many moving parts. But, Ken, 601 00:36:14.230 --> 00:36:16.630 in other words, the law is now like that thing 602 00:36:16.710 --> 00:36:19.150 on mattresses. You know, remove this and it's illegal. 603 00:36:19.170 --> 00:36:21.329 Right. So, yes. 604 00:36:21.550 --> 00:36:22.969 And I think there was a period of time where 605 00:36:23.010 --> 00:36:25.650 it was like that and it sort of openly acknowledged 606 00:36:25.670 --> 00:36:27.190 that it was like that. And then we had the 607 00:36:27.210 --> 00:36:32.000 pendulum swing more towards, you know, more rigorous enforcement. And 608 00:36:32.019 --> 00:36:34.860 that was seen as a correction, but possibly an overcorrection 609 00:36:34.900 --> 00:36:38.960 by the Trump folks who are now sort of decriminalizing both. 610 00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:41.699 I should say both the Foreign Agents Registration Act and 611 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:45.389 the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, another law that's used to 612 00:36:45.469 --> 00:36:50.000 sort of regulate U.S. political involvement abroad. And so, yeah, 613 00:36:50.099 --> 00:36:51.699 I think we're back to the Wild West. 614 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.300 We have you, Ken. Kenneth Vogel for The New York 615 00:36:55.340 --> 00:36:59.440 Times and for his book, Devil's Advocates, the hidden story, 616 00:36:59.539 --> 00:37:03.300 not so hidden right now, of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden, 617 00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:06.769 and the Washington insiders on the payrolls of corrupt foreign interests. 618 00:37:07.610 --> 00:37:10.590 This is CBS Eye on the World. Thank you, Ken. 619 00:37:11.469 --> 00:37:12.349 Hey, it was a treat. 620 00:37:12.769 --> 00:37:13.670 I'm John Batchelor.