2. Royal Arrest Attempt Triggers English War - JONATHAN HEALEY의 전체 녹취록

00:04:38.389 --> 00:04:41.279 Parliament something to argue about, which is you can't take 70 00:04:41.339 --> 00:04:44.579 documents without a charge. I agree with all of that. 71 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:48.160 But the scene that is better than any other is 72 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:53.370 the scene with Charles and Henrietta and a woman known 73 00:04:53.449 --> 00:04:59.949 as Lady Carlyle. And this is– it's a cinematic moment, Jonathan, 74 00:04:59.970 --> 00:05:03.350 so I want to pause over it. Charles is unclear 75 00:05:03.370 --> 00:05:09.420 the road ahead and he needs to explain to Henrietta Maria, 76 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:13.899 his wife, why he's doing this and not that. He's 77 00:05:13.939 --> 00:05:16.939 grabbed the documents but he hasn't grabbed the men. He's 78 00:05:17.019 --> 00:05:21.060 intimidated or in some fashion taking a step back because 79 00:05:21.139 --> 00:05:23.980 lords won't obey him. They want this argued in the 80 00:05:24.060 --> 00:05:26.720 commons first and they want to charge first before they 81 00:05:26.740 --> 00:05:29.230 try to impeach somebody. In other words, it's all process. 82 00:05:31.009 --> 00:05:37.019 How is it How is it that that secret of 83 00:05:37.100 --> 00:05:40.220 what he's plotting gets out is the question you raise 84 00:05:40.259 --> 00:05:45.759 in your book. Guilty parties have been advanced for 400 years. 85 00:05:45.819 --> 00:05:49.269 Do you have a version that you're comfortable with? Yes. 86 00:05:49.329 --> 00:05:52.680 I mean, I think it was Lady Carlisle who first 87 00:05:52.899 --> 00:05:56.800 leaked the information. She was a courtier. She'd been, you know, 88 00:05:56.860 --> 00:05:59.120 quite close to, she'd been very, very significant, of course, 89 00:05:59.139 --> 00:06:03.339 in the 1630s. But she'd been close to the Earl 90 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:07.040 of Stratford, actually. But after his execution, she'd gravitated towards 91 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:11.600 the Junto, partly because several of her family members were um, 92 00:06:11.660 --> 00:06:14.339 significantly involved with them. So she was very worried about 93 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:16.740 the direction of travel. And if, if Charles was able 94 00:06:16.779 --> 00:06:20.120 to start arresting leading members of the Junto, then it 95 00:06:20.220 --> 00:06:23.300 might be that members of her family would, would be next. Um, 96 00:06:23.339 --> 00:06:25.199 but she's still at this point, very close to the 97 00:06:25.220 --> 00:06:28.410 queen and she's got this probably acting as a sort 98 00:06:28.430 --> 00:06:32.069 of double agent between, between the two. Um, and at 99 00:06:32.189 --> 00:06:35.050 late at night in Whitehall, Charles and Henrietta Maria seemed 100 00:06:35.069 --> 00:06:39.480 to stay up, uh, arguing essentially about what to do next. Um, 101 00:06:40.579 --> 00:06:44.939 And the Queen manages to use her sort of forceful 102 00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:50.420 persuasion to encourage Charles to decide to go to Parliament 103 00:06:50.459 --> 00:06:54.079 himself the next day. And then at some point, Lady 104 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.110 Carlyle got wind of this. So she was probably told. 105 00:06:57.829 --> 00:07:00.689 And then she disappeared off into the night, I assume, 106 00:07:00.949 --> 00:07:04.750 and then went and told probably Mandeville because she thought 107 00:07:04.769 --> 00:07:08.209 that he was under threat. And he then told the 108 00:07:08.250 --> 00:07:10.269 members of the House of Commons that, that they were 109 00:07:10.310 --> 00:07:12.889 under threat the next day. So when they went into 110 00:07:13.250 --> 00:07:17.129 the house on the 4th, they knew what to expect 111 00:07:17.170 --> 00:07:18.910 that day. They knew to be on alert. 112 00:07:19.870 --> 00:07:23.230 For 400 years, we've had recorded in history after history 113 00:07:23.750 --> 00:07:29.339 that what Henrietta says to her husband, the king, is, poltroon, 114 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:34.439 go pull them out by their beards. Now, who heard 115 00:07:34.500 --> 00:07:36.600 that and who passed it on? Why do we have 116 00:07:36.620 --> 00:07:39.800 it 400 years later? for the Queen to call Charles 117 00:07:39.860 --> 00:07:42.120 the poltroon in the middle of the night in Whitehall 118 00:07:42.420 --> 00:07:43.699 where he's plotting a coup. 119 00:07:45.139 --> 00:07:49.079 Who tells us? I mean, it sort of crops up. 120 00:07:49.850 --> 00:07:52.410 It crops up in a very, very obscure source several 121 00:07:52.509 --> 00:07:57.959 decades later. And the... The only way that I can 122 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:02.180 really see that story getting out is if Lady Carlyle 123 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:04.519 had reported that specific. 124 00:08:05.569 --> 00:08:08.209 Listened at the door of the closet, right? 125 00:08:08.290 --> 00:08:11.589 Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I guess. Because, you know, there's 126 00:08:11.649 --> 00:08:15.990 thin walls in this period and raised voices. I think 127 00:08:16.050 --> 00:08:18.069 people would have been able to hear these kind of things. 128 00:08:18.860 --> 00:08:21.139 There are historians who think, well, that all sounds too 129 00:08:21.180 --> 00:08:23.870 good to be true. But it's sort of so... it's 130 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:26.269 so specific. For me, it has the ring of truth 131 00:08:26.310 --> 00:08:29.389 about it. I'd like to believe it was true. But 132 00:08:29.430 --> 00:08:31.689 of course, you know, one can never be completely sure 133 00:08:31.730 --> 00:08:34.909 about these kinds of things in, you know, looking at this. 134 00:08:34.970 --> 00:08:36.169 Everyone's available. 135 00:08:36.629 --> 00:08:39.759 If you meet it for the first time in Jonathan's book, 136 00:08:39.779 --> 00:08:42.500 you're all available for your own version of how it happened. 137 00:08:42.500 --> 00:08:48.080 400 years later, the plot was betrayed by someone who 138 00:08:48.139 -->

00:08:52.220 heard the queen yell, now, There's nothing wrong with Henrietta Maria. 139 00:08:52.299 --> 00:08:56.259 She sees exactly what's going on. She understands that Charles 140 00:08:56.299 --> 00:09:00.230 must act with dispatch. And in this instance, he doesn't 141 00:09:00.269 --> 00:09:03.750 back down, as he likes to do, come up with 142 00:09:03.789 --> 00:09:06.730 a great plot and then doubt himself. He shows up 143 00:09:06.789 --> 00:09:12.440 in Parliament, and he's there to make arrests. This gets 144 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:17.080 another scene. Remember, we're in Westminster now. Another scene. King's 145 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:20.309 standing there. surrounded by his guards who've come in to 146 00:09:20.350 --> 00:09:23.370 make the arrests. Where are the five? What's happened to them? 147 00:09:24.470 --> 00:09:29.350 Well, they've escaped. They had been warned. And they'd come 148 00:09:29.389 --> 00:09:32.080 into Parliament that morning. They got the warning probably from 149 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:34.519 Lucy Hay. They'd also had a warning from the Earl 150 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:39.659 of Essex. At lunchtime in Parliament, they'd sent someone up 151 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.539 to the Palace of Whitehall where they'd seen large sort 152 00:09:43.580 --> 00:09:47.610 of large collection of armed cavaliers, armed soldiers who'd been 153 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:49.000 there for a while now. And they'd sort of seen 154 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:51.789 that they were getting ready to do something. And then 155 00:09:51.889 --> 00:09:54.710 when Charles came out of Whitehall, gathered together these cavaliers 156 00:09:54.769 --> 00:09:57.269 and started, you know, going down the street towards Parliament, 157 00:09:58.129 --> 00:10:02.639 a lookout posted by the French ambassador saw them and 158 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:05.500 then ran all the way down the street to Parliament 159 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:08.620 so they'd heard that he was coming and as he 160 00:10:08.659 --> 00:10:12.149 was coming into Parliament they were escaping through the back 161 00:10:12.169 --> 00:10:14.929 door down the stairs right down to the river because 162 00:10:14.950 --> 00:10:16.389 of course Parliament is on the river as it is 163 00:10:16.409 --> 00:10:20.070 today and they slipped onto a boat and And then 164 00:10:20.860 --> 00:10:24.159 they rode along the Thames into the city of London. 165 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:27.120 So they made their escape. And so Charles is stood 166 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:30.019 there in the House of Commons saying, you know, where 167 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:34.460 am I? Where are my five members? And they're not here. 168 00:10:34.659 --> 00:10:36.059 They've gone. 169 00:10:36.299 --> 00:10:39.799 This is one of the most dramatic moments in all 170 00:10:39.820 --> 00:10:43.450 of English history. We have another player we've not introduced 171 00:10:43.490 --> 00:10:47.419 when we come back. The plague is afoot. Jonathan Healy 172 00:10:47.539 --> 00:10:50.519 is the author, The Blood in Winter, England on the 173 00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:57.909 Brink of Civil War, 1642. I'm John Batchelor. I'm John 174 00:10:57.950 --> 00:11:01.210 Batchelor with Professor Jonathan Healy. His first book is The 175 00:11:01.250 --> 00:11:04.879 Blazing World, which was a stunning achievement for me because 176 00:11:04.929 --> 00:11:07.480 I didn't know any of this. And now I've had 177 00:11:07.539 --> 00:11:11.700 a very good 20th century education. I read a lot 178 00:11:11.740 --> 00:11:15.519 of history in university, and I've read a lot since. 179 00:11:16.179 --> 00:11:19.840 Jonathan's book introduces you to a world that we come from. 180 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:27.090 The 17th century, you remember your date, 1607. That's Jamestown. 1619, 181 00:11:27.090 --> 00:11:32.389 that's the Pilgrims. All of this material is watching England, 182 00:11:32.669 --> 00:11:36.529 Great Britain, in civil war or building towards civil war 183 00:11:36.629 --> 00:11:39.629 in the 17th century when power would pass from the 184 00:11:39.750 --> 00:11:43.669 king to the parliament. Constitutional monarchy, we call it today. 185 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:47.259 That would be the model for the founders in the 186 00:11:47.460 --> 00:11:51.419 18th century, which is why all this backstory is so 187 00:11:51.940 --> 00:11:56.039 helpful to understand our institutions. We come now to not 188 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.409 an institution, but the question of health of the republic 189 00:11:59.769 --> 00:12:02.889 or health of the empire or health of the kingdom, 190 00:12:03.470 --> 00:12:07.610 the plague. It returns in the 17th century, never more 191 00:12:07.990 --> 00:12:12.820 worrisome than in 1660s, but it strikes that winter in 192 00:12:13.539 --> 00:12:16.149 In only London, Jonathan, or was it throughout the land? 193 00:12:18.129 --> 00:12:21.549 Well, at this point, the plague tended to hit city 194 00:12:21.590 --> 00:12:25.580 by city. When the Black Death first arrived in England 195 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.100 in the 14th century, it just swept through the country very, 196 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:31.139 very quickly. But now, ever since that, it sort of 197 00:12:31.460 --> 00:12:33.700 pops up in one place and then disappears and then 198 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:36.409 goes somewhere else. So it was in other places a 199 00:12:36.450 --> 00:12:38.409 little bit, but the main centre at this point was 200 00:12:38.450 --> 00:12:43.169 London and Westminster. And that summer, In particular, the summer 201 00:12:43.330 --> 00:12:48.809 of 1641 had been very, very bad. Plague had been 202 00:12:49.090 --> 00:12:52.009 killing quite a lot of people. By the wintertime, because 203 00:12:52.029 --> 00:12:54.779 of the particular kind of seasonality of plague, it was 204 00:12:54.820 --> 00:12:57.559 starting to die out. But yeah, it had been a 205 00:12:57.580 -->

00:12:58.200 sickly year. 206 00:12:59.419 --> 00:13:02.620 The reason the plague is important here is because members 207 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:04.799 of the House of Lords and those who could afford 208 00:13:04.860 --> 00:13:08.720 it in common have fled the city. and are called 209 00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:11.370 to return to Parliament. Remember, this is the long Parliament. 210 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:14.610 It never really recesses. It has a committee that's always 211 00:13:14.649 --> 00:13:20.210 meeting permanently. It's a process fiction. But Charles has reason 212 00:13:20.250 --> 00:13:24.049 to believe that his numbers will strengthen to dominance on 213 00:13:24.129 --> 00:13:27.960 January 12th. He's not the only person who knows that. 214 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:32.500 The Junto at this time, Jonathan, what does John Pym 215 00:13:32.779 --> 00:13:35.360 make of Charles' attempt? Does he think that it was 216 00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:39.259 nearly successful and we escaped it? Or does he use 217 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.340 it against the king? How does he explain to the 218 00:13:42.419 --> 00:13:46.289 parliament and even to lords what the king's afoot with? 219 00:13:48.330 --> 00:13:52.850 Well, the proclamation whereby Charles tried to get his supporters 220 00:13:52.870 --> 00:13:55.519 to come back to parliament is the sort of background, 221 00:13:55.559 --> 00:14:00.460 if you like, to the the attempted impeachments of the 222 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:02.360 early January, because one of the things that Charles is 223 00:14:02.379 --> 00:14:04.500 hoping is that he can sort of slow things down 224 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:08.799 until January the 12th, as you say, when he'd get 225 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:13.379 these sort of moderate MPs back. But the attempt on 226 00:14:14.419 --> 00:14:19.470 the five members kind of just dramatically changes the landscape. 227 00:14:20.490 --> 00:14:23.870 And whereas Charles was in a position before that, that 228 00:14:23.929 --> 00:14:25.779 he might have been able to sort of gather a. 229 00:14:27.460 --> 00:14:30.720 A very, very strong, well, actually a majority in both houses. 230 00:14:31.299 --> 00:14:34.490 He's now completely lost that because people are looking at 231 00:14:34.690 --> 00:14:39.110 the royalists in fear. And those moderates in the middle 232 00:14:39.549 --> 00:14:42.210 have really kind of swung behind Pym and the Junto. 233 00:14:42.250 --> 00:14:47.149 So it's a huge, a catastrophic decision by Charles because 234 00:14:47.210 --> 00:14:49.529 it makes it look like he is a military threat 235 00:14:50.269 --> 00:14:52.379 to Parliament. And that means that a lot of moderates 236 00:14:52.409 --> 00:14:54.940 kind of dramatically swing against him. 237 00:14:55.629 --> 00:14:58.570 What's going on outside is important here because the crowds 238 00:14:58.610 --> 00:15:01.429 make a lot of noise, but many of them are 239 00:15:01.509 --> 00:15:06.669 parts of gangs that are gathering in the night and 240 00:15:06.710 --> 00:15:08.990 very dangerous. But there are two groups that we need 241 00:15:09.009 --> 00:15:17.200 to pay attention to. The cavalieros, the cavaliers who are royalist-associated, 242 00:15:17.659 --> 00:15:21.580 the roundheads who are Puritan-associated, the mob that's in between. 243 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:25.789 And one group I found fascinating. The apprentices, what do 244 00:15:25.809 --> 00:15:28.210 they represent in London at this time, Jonathan? 245 00:15:29.590 --> 00:15:32.549 That's a really interesting question. And actually, the word roundhead, 246 00:15:32.590 --> 00:15:36.129 although it's often said to come from the Puritans who 247 00:15:36.149 --> 00:15:38.450 wore their hair short, the other people who had to 248 00:15:38.490 --> 00:15:42.360 wear their hair short were apprentices because their masters insisted 249 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:45.620 that they look smart. So roundhead was also an insult 250 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.889 aimed at the apprentices. And they're basically young people who 251 00:15:48.950 --> 00:15:53.049 are learning a trade. And they're often quite a volatile group. 252 00:15:53.450 --> 00:15:55.909 If there's any kind of street protest in London, much 253 00:15:55.990 --> 00:15:58.480 as students would be today at the forefront of it, 254 00:15:58.570 --> 00:16:02.220 apprentices would be in the 17th century. So they are 255 00:16:02.659 --> 00:16:04.600 a very kind of vocal group. They make up a very, 256 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:08.559 very large proportion of the population. And they are, as 257 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:13.580 I say, they're young. They're also impacted by poor trading. 258 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:18.919 There's bad trading at this point. And they are I mean, 259 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:24.480 I think that they're also particularly in tune to particularly 260 00:16:24.580 --> 00:16:29.379 attuned to ideas about tyranny because they are they are 261 00:16:29.419 --> 00:16:32.919 looking at their work situation where they have this master. 262 00:16:33.940 --> 00:16:36.759 And if that master acts tyrannically to them, they can 263 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:39.179 they can sue them in the law court. So they 264 00:16:39.299 --> 00:16:41.659 they kind of have this idea that they they have 265 00:16:41.740 --> 00:16:44.399 rights there. And I think that helps them think about 266 00:16:44.419 --> 00:16:46.539 the monarchy in a particular way. But yeah, I mean, 267 00:16:46.580 --> 00:16:48.860 London's very, very volatile at this point. And you've got 268 00:16:48.899 --> 00:16:51.970 lots of demobbed soldiers coming back as well from the army, 269 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:55.370 which had been raised to fight Scotland, had not done so. 270 00:16:55.870 --> 00:16:57.789 It had then been disbanded and a lot of the 271 00:16:57.830 --> 00:17:01.549 soldiers then came back to London and became the cavaliers, 272 00:17:01.610 -->

00:17:04.970 as you say. So it's a very, very volatile situation 273 00:17:05.009 --> 00:17:05.849 on London streets. 274 00:17:06.730 --> 00:17:09.819 And when it gets dark, it's very dangerous to be 275 00:17:09.890 --> 00:17:13.619 out on the street. Very dangerous. And things happen outside 276 00:17:13.650 --> 00:17:17.079 of Whitehall. Things happen outside of Westminster that they're not 277 00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:20.359 sure of. It's spooky, plus the plagues out there. So 278 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:24.500 when we come back, the king is pushed to the limits. 279 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:29.000 They move against his queen. And time to flee. The 280 00:17:29.019 --> 00:17:31.819 book is The Blood in Winter. Jonathan Healy is the author. 281 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:35.200 This is CBS Eye on the World. I'm John Batchelor. 282 00:17:38.410 --> 00:17:41.470 I'm John Baxter visiting with Professor Jonathan Healy. The new 283 00:17:41.490 --> 00:17:43.769 book is The Blood in Winter, England on the Brink 284 00:17:43.809 --> 00:17:46.690 of Civil War, 1642. There's lots of violence. There are 285 00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:51.029 lots of threats. There are people grabbing their weapons. They're 286 00:17:51.069 --> 00:17:54.049 threatening in the crowds. They swing sabers at each other. 287 00:17:54.609 --> 00:17:57.769 But the threat that upsets the king more than any 288 00:17:57.849 --> 00:18:01.650 other in my imagination is the threat to impeach the queen, 289 00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:06.190 Henrietta Maria. And that may drive decisions by the king 290 00:18:06.910 --> 00:18:09.730 It also is going to lead to it's time to flee. 291 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:12.670 But before with the fleeing, I want to come to 292 00:18:12.710 --> 00:18:16.410 what happens in late January. There's violence every night, Professor. 293 00:18:17.299 --> 00:18:22.319 And the violence can seem ceremonial, as if there are 294 00:18:22.460 --> 00:18:25.240 crowds coming out and crowds not coming out. There are 295 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.980 several nights where the crowds don't come out. Is it 296 00:18:28.099 --> 00:18:31.920 organized in any fashion or are people really spontaneous? 297 00:18:33.299 --> 00:18:37.019 And historians have debated this point for many, many years. 298 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.009 And I think there must be some kind of organization. 299 00:18:41.049 --> 00:18:45.990 There's definitely a few. There's one particularly striking moment where 300 00:18:46.029 --> 00:18:49.339 there's a report. And it shows that there's a debate 301 00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:52.579 going on in Parliament and the Junto are losing. So 302 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.109 someone runs into the city, City of London, goes to 303 00:18:56.150 --> 00:18:58.990 a shop where they know someone will be, finds one 304 00:18:59.009 --> 00:19:03.349 of the MPs' wife, and she calls out the crowd. 305 00:19:03.390 --> 00:19:05.880 And then the crowd of people go down to Westminster. 306 00:19:05.890 --> 00:19:09.420 So there's obviously some organisation. And I think also the pastors, 307 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:16.750 the ministers, the ministers of the gathered congregations are also– 308 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:20.099 you know, bringing out the crowd and also when the 309 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:22.140 crowd are no longer necessary, they tell the crowd to 310 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.200 go home. So there's definitely some organization, but I do 311 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:29.880 think there's also a capacity for spontaneous crowd action as well. 312 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:31.559 So it's a bit of both, really, I think. 313 00:19:32.660 --> 00:19:35.930 Old Testament, 1 Kings 1, 2 to 1, 5 to 6, 314 00:19:35.930 --> 00:19:38.029 15 to 16, a passage to your tents, O Israel. 315 00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:46.200 You make that a chapter late in the drama. 316 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:46.819 Why? 317 00:19:47.019 --> 00:19:47.589 What happens? 318 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:52.480 Well, for me, this is the moment that Charles really 319 00:19:52.539 --> 00:19:55.220 kind of realises that he's losing control. And the day 320 00:19:55.299 --> 00:19:59.269 after he tried to arrest the five members in Parliament, 321 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:01.269 he tried to do it again, this time in the 322 00:20:01.309 --> 00:20:03.250 City of London. And he went to the City of London. 323 00:20:03.269 --> 00:20:05.809 There was a big crowd and he was rebuffed by 324 00:20:05.849 --> 00:20:08.750 the city government. So he went for lunch with the sheriff, 325 00:20:08.809 --> 00:20:10.789 one of the sheriffs. And then after that, he got 326 00:20:10.829 --> 00:20:12.950 in a coach to go home back to Whitehall. On 327 00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:16.710 his way, the coach was surrounded by crowds and someone 328 00:20:16.750 --> 00:20:20.460 ran up to his coach and threw in a pamphlet entitled. Well, 329 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:22.180 I mean, it had a longer title. It basically sort 330 00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:24.259 of reported what had happened the day before. But it 331 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:26.779 had this biblical passage that you talk about to your tents, 332 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:32.480 O Israel. And it's it's basically a call for the 333 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.890 the nation of the biblical nation of Israel to withdraw 334 00:20:34.950 --> 00:20:37.430 its support from the House of David because the House 335 00:20:37.470 --> 00:20:43.509 of David had become tyrannical. And, you know, the sort 336 00:20:43.529 --> 00:20:47.009 of innuendo is very, very clear that Charles is acting 337 00:20:47.049 --> 00:20:48.869 as a tyrant. But also the fact that people can 338 00:20:48.950 --> 00:20:52.980 get that close to his person and that coach, which 339 00:20:53.059 --> 00:20:54.960 is supposed to be the sort of barrier between him 340 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.579 and his people, is permeable, means that I think he 341 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.220 suddenly gets

very, very frightened. And within a few days, 342 00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:03.460 he left. He left London. 343 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:06.160 Is that when they changed the locks in Whitehall or 344 00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:08.019 had they done that earlier? I don't remember. 345 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:14.559 The lost key in Whitehall is one of those things 346 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:16.500 that I discovered in the archives. I don't think anyone's 347 00:21:16.539 --> 00:21:20.240 ever found that before. And I would love to think 348 00:21:20.299 --> 00:21:23.940 it was significant. But basically, one of the king's nephews, 349 00:21:26.170 --> 00:21:30.869 who's actually considered as a potential pretender, loses his keys 350 00:21:31.309 --> 00:21:35.029 on the day of the 3rd of January. And there's 351 00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:38.769 a record in the household account saying a new set 352 00:21:38.809 --> 00:21:43.680 of keys for this guy. So I'd love to have 353 00:21:43.700 --> 00:21:45.940 been a fly on the wall when it was discovered 354 00:21:45.980 --> 00:21:48.079 that those keys had gone missing in the midst of 355 00:21:48.140 --> 00:21:50.160 all this kind of anarchy on the streets of London. 356 00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:54.759 I know I'm reading backwards, Professor. But it's impossible to 357 00:21:54.819 --> 00:21:57.339 ignore the fact that this is a man who will 358 00:21:57.380 --> 00:22:02.200 suffer regicide as he makes decisions here. And you might 359 00:22:02.299 --> 00:22:08.269 say that he's protected by large, organized, and very capable 360 00:22:08.349 --> 00:22:12.589 soldiers at Whitehall. But I felt that he was vulnerable 361 00:22:12.670 --> 00:22:15.710 every moment, especially where passages where you would say he 362 00:22:15.750 --> 00:22:18.490 would disappear into the warrens of Whitehall. Anything could have 363 00:22:18.529 --> 00:22:19.829 happened in those corridors. 364 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:22.640 I think that's right. And I think he feels vulnerable. 365 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:24.890 And the other thing to bear in mind about Charles 366 00:22:24.950 --> 00:22:29.109 and Henrietta Maria is that they had both suffered assassinations 367 00:22:29.430 --> 00:22:34.250 to people that they were close to. Henrietta's father, Henry 368 00:22:34.309 --> 00:22:36.880 IV of France, had been assassinated. She was a baby 369 00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:40.200 at the time, but she knew about it. And Charles, 370 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:42.140 of course, had lost the Duke of Buckingham, who'd been 371 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:46.720 assassinated in 1628. And so they are both very conscious 372 00:22:46.789 --> 00:22:50.180 that the people of are not just a kind of, 373 00:22:50.309 --> 00:22:54.430 you know, they're not just a concept. They are potentially 374 00:22:54.470 --> 00:22:59.660 dangerous and their lives are at threat if they go 375 00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:02.279 the wrong way. So I think that's true. I think 376 00:23:02.299 --> 00:23:06.309 we have to understand this kind of background of threats 377 00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:09.650 that they are experiencing if we want to understand their actions. 378 00:23:09.730 --> 00:23:11.730 I don't think it's irrational of Charles to be afraid, 379 00:23:11.950 --> 00:23:12.190 I think. 380 00:23:12.549 --> 00:23:15.750 Charles and Henrietta Maria make a decision to flee. They 381 00:23:15.789 --> 00:23:18.190 descend into a boat and are off to Hampton Courts. 382 00:23:18.250 --> 00:23:21.410 What does Parliament make of the king leaving the city? 383 00:23:21.809 --> 00:23:23.839 Is it satisfied? Is it frustrated? 384 00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:27.180 Well, I think, I mean, they spend a lot of 385 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:29.680 time trying to get him to come back. And I 386 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.819 think the realisation in Parliament with the king gone is 387 00:23:34.690 --> 00:23:37.430 is that it becomes much harder to sort of come 388 00:23:37.450 --> 00:23:40.450 to a settlement, if you like. And I think the 389 00:23:40.490 --> 00:23:44.000 realisation at that point is that if we don't do 390 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:47.299 something pretty serious in terms of negotiation, then we are 391 00:23:47.339 --> 00:23:49.900 going to end up in a civil war fairly soon. 392 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:53.160 So although it's a sort of victory for the Junto, 393 00:23:53.220 --> 00:23:56.420 I think it's a very uneasy victory because of what 394 00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:59.509 it represents. I think what they hope What they'd hoped 395 00:23:59.569 --> 00:24:02.329 for is that Charles would back down and give them 396 00:24:02.390 --> 00:24:05.839 the political reforms that they want. Instead, what he'd done 397 00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:09.420 is he'd run away because they'd frightened him. And I 398 00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:14.400 think that meant that the realisation was it wasn't likely 399 00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:18.019 to end in compromise and, you know, a kind of 400 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:21.170 set of articles of agreement. It was going to end 401 00:24:21.309 --> 00:24:24.569 in a battle. So, yeah, it was unnerving, I think. 402 00:24:24.890 --> 00:24:28.670 There's a scene that is very convincing. When they flee 403 00:24:28.690 --> 00:24:32.190 to Hampton Court, it was not prepared for them. So 404 00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:34.170 the rooms are cold and the fires are not lit. 405 00:24:34.809 --> 00:24:37.829 And they sleep together as a family that night. And 406 00:24:37.930 --> 00:24:42.640 I saw them extremely representing the old world that's about 407 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:45.859 to pass away. And we come to what it is 408 00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:49.640 that Parliament does over the next weeks. But before that, 409 00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:53.910 Henrietta and Charles have a meeting. And they've got new 410 00:24:53.970 --> 00:24:56.269 plans now. Where is Henrietta going? 411 00:24:58.349 --> 00:25:00.549 So Henrietta

will go to the continent and she will 412 00:25:00.569 --> 00:25:06.700 try to raise forces, money and potentially armed forces to 413 00:25:06.779 --> 00:25:12.559 come over and support Charles. Whereas he will go and 414 00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:14.619 set up a court somewhere and he ends up setting 415 00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:16.630 up his own court in York, which is quite a 416 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:21.349 long way from London. And that. that means that the 417 00:25:21.690 --> 00:25:26.160 potential for a negotiated settlement gets even further away. And 418 00:25:26.740 --> 00:25:28.920 I think, you know, the fact that Henrietta has been 419 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:31.819 sent over to the continent to raise forces, I think 420 00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:34.880 Charles has realised that he's not going to put down 421 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:39.329 Parliament without using force. So he's kind of come to 422 00:25:39.349 --> 00:25:42.289 an acceptance that he will have to raise an army 423 00:25:42.349 --> 00:25:47.250 against these people. So, yeah, I mean, again, it's another 424 00:25:47.289 --> 00:25:50.980 step towards the sort of inevitable end, which is, pitched battles. 425 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:56.579 As Charles makes his way north, Parliament is passing laws 426 00:25:57.339 --> 00:26:02.309 that again and again reproach the king or rebuke the 427 00:26:02.369 --> 00:26:06.390 king or reject the king as an authority. They take 428 00:26:06.430 --> 00:26:09.150 away from him the power of raising soldiers, I think. 429 00:26:09.849 --> 00:26:12.849 They already had the power of purse. Surely they knew 430 00:26:12.930 --> 00:26:16.460 that that was pushing him towards violence. Is that what 431 00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:18.619 they expected? They wanted him to make the first move? 432 00:26:20.289 --> 00:26:26.309 There's some some some would say yes. I think the 433 00:26:26.890 --> 00:26:29.170 one of the things that is very, very central to 434 00:26:29.329 --> 00:26:31.329 the way that parliamentarians are thinking at this point is 435 00:26:31.349 --> 00:26:33.829 that they are still afraid and they are afraid of 436 00:26:33.849 --> 00:26:36.890 the rebellion in Ireland and they are afraid of the Cavaliers. 437 00:26:37.390 --> 00:26:40.250 And what Charles had done on the 4th of January 438 00:26:40.289 --> 00:26:43.670 had made them afraid of the people around him. So 439 00:26:43.809 --> 00:26:46.779 as a result of that, they they tried to take 440 00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:51.950 control of the militia. And but of course, as you say, 441 00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:55.089 Charles was not willing to do to allow them to 442 00:26:55.130 --> 00:26:57.109 do that. So they had to do something which was 443 00:26:57.829 --> 00:27:01.099 actually quietly very, very radical, which was that they passed 444 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:07.160 an ordinance rather than a bill. And an ordinance is 445 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:10.480 basically something which has gone through two houses of parliament, 446 00:27:10.539 --> 00:27:12.740 but not been given the assent of the king. But 447 00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:14.960 it has the force of law and it has the 448 00:27:15.009 --> 00:27:19.299 force of law because the king is indisposed. Now, if 449 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:24.200 the king had been away and not contactable, that was fine. 450 00:27:24.220 --> 00:27:26.720 But he was there and he was literally saying, I 451 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:29.799 don't agree to this. And so the fact that they're 452 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.609 passing this ordinance and then putting it into and treating 453 00:27:33.619 --> 00:27:36.509 it as law is a very, very radical statement. And 454 00:27:36.549 --> 00:27:38.349 it's very, very hard to see how you go back 455 00:27:38.410 --> 00:27:41.589 from that because they are claiming kind of sovereign authority 456 00:27:42.470 --> 00:27:45.750 over the kingdom. So that's why that militia ordinance is 457 00:27:45.789 --> 00:27:48.049 such a critical moment. And you're right, no, Charles would 458 00:27:48.089 --> 00:27:50.619 never assent to that and in fact at the same 459 00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:53.319 time he starts to raise his own forces by using 460 00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.440 something called the commissions of array and then gradually you're 461 00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:59.660 getting these kind of two armed camps which is the 462 00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:02.119 next stage that you want uh that you need for 463 00:28:02.140 --> 00:28:04.750 a for a civil war um you know you've got 464 00:28:04.789 --> 00:28:07.130 two two two armies growing. 465 00:28:07.150 --> 00:28:14.710 The blood and winter jonathan healy i'm john bachelor i'm 466 00:28:14.730 --> 00:28:17.630 john bachelor with professor jonathan healy the book is the 467 00:28:17.650 --> 00:28:20.759 blood and winter There are scenes here that are hard 468 00:28:20.779 --> 00:28:24.180 to believe. You all remember the scene in Monty Python 469 00:28:24.220 --> 00:28:26.849 and the Holy Grail where they arrive at a French 470 00:28:26.970 --> 00:28:29.369 court and demand to be let in because they're on 471 00:28:29.390 --> 00:28:33.789 a mission from God or something like that. And the 472 00:28:34.170 --> 00:28:36.910 lord of the castle shouts down at them and throws 473 00:28:36.950 --> 00:28:39.529 things on them and says, you can't come in. Well, 474 00:28:39.910 --> 00:28:45.289 that actually played out as Charles marched north. He wanted 475 00:28:45.309 --> 00:28:49.299 a port city with weapons. That would be Hull. Is 476 00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:52.420 that correct, Jonathan? Do I remember that right? That's right. Yeah. 477 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:56.529 And they shouted. Did they really, as you position it, 478 00:28:56.599 --> 00:28:59.660 was the report back to Parliament that they were shouting 479 00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:01.779 at each other and Hull wouldn't open its gates? 480 00:29:03.019 -->

00:29:05.619 Yeah, I mean, the governor is standing on the gates 481 00:29:05.779 --> 00:29:08.240 shouting down to the king and the king is shouting 482 00:29:08.299 --> 00:29:13.240 back or having his people shout back. And it's quite 483 00:29:13.299 --> 00:29:17.809 farcical in many ways. It's also of immense constitutional significance 484 00:29:17.869 --> 00:29:20.869 because what Parliament are doing or what the governor of 485 00:29:20.930 --> 00:29:23.910 Hull is doing is he's saying that the king shouldn't 486 00:29:23.930 --> 00:29:26.970 be allowed access to this stuff because Parliament says that 487 00:29:26.990 --> 00:29:30.009 he shouldn't. So then there becomes a question as to 488 00:29:31.470 --> 00:29:33.930 At what point, you know, does the king have a 489 00:29:34.019 --> 00:29:37.420 right to go into all of his castles and, you know, 490 00:29:37.539 --> 00:29:41.019 all the sort of square yards of England's land? So 491 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.119 it's a very, very significant moment. It's also very humiliating 492 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.599 for Charles because, you know, he is being rebuffed in 493 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.619 this way. And it's of huge military significance because, as 494 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:54.089 you say, Hull is full of weapons and it's a 495 00:29:54.089 --> 00:29:59.369 really key port area. on the River Humber, which would 496 00:29:59.390 --> 00:30:02.759 be a landing point for any sort of foreign army. 497 00:30:03.259 --> 00:30:06.559 So it's a very, very significant moment. And it's actually 498 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:11.420 after what happens at Hull that Charles starts explicitly talking 499 00:30:11.460 --> 00:30:14.839 about the fact that Parliament is waging war upon him. 500 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:17.900 So he's talking as if war has been declared, really. 501 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:22.299 This is 1642, the summer of 1642. Charles has been 502 00:30:22.339 --> 00:30:26.750 moving north towards York. He eventually achieves it. But I 503 00:30:26.789 --> 00:30:30.809 want to step back just a moment and understand the 504 00:30:30.910 --> 00:30:36.930 spirit of history for 400 years. I get the sense 505 00:30:36.950 --> 00:30:39.750 from your book, Jonathan, that it's never really been resolved 506 00:30:39.809 --> 00:30:42.789 whether Parliament was right or not in the way it 507 00:30:42.890 --> 00:30:46.589 conducted its affairs, that there have been epochs ever since 508 00:30:46.930 --> 00:30:51.990 coming and going in my country, in your country, where 509 00:30:52.339 --> 00:30:57.519 there's doubt about the decision to challenge authority. Is that 510 00:30:57.579 --> 00:31:01.599 still true in 21st century Britain, doubting about challenging the king? 511 00:31:02.869 --> 00:31:03.990 I think that is true, yes. 512 00:31:04.269 --> 00:31:04.730 I think. 513 00:31:06.150 --> 00:31:08.970 In the later 17th century, I think people believed that 514 00:31:09.009 --> 00:31:13.069 the parliamentarians were wrong. I think into the 19th century, 515 00:31:13.109 --> 00:31:14.970 when you've got the sort of Whig tradition of history, 516 00:31:14.990 --> 00:31:19.599 a lot of historians essentially believed the parliamentarians had right 517 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:21.940 on their side. I think the 20th century has made 518 00:31:21.980 --> 00:31:25.130 things a little bit more a little bit more balanced, 519 00:31:25.170 --> 00:31:27.690 if you like. I mean, I think from the point 520 00:31:27.750 --> 00:31:32.869 of view of modern liberal democracies, I think it's hard 521 00:31:32.910 --> 00:31:35.349 to argue a royalist position. But I don't think as 522 00:31:35.390 --> 00:31:38.089 historians we necessarily should be doing that. We should be 523 00:31:38.130 --> 00:31:41.190 trying to put ourselves in the 17th century. And then 524 00:31:41.250 --> 00:31:43.329 it becomes a lot more complicated. And one of the 525 00:31:43.349 --> 00:31:46.730 things I've really enjoyed actually about writing this book is 526 00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:49.359 to try and understand where the royalists were coming from. 527 00:31:49.579 --> 00:31:52.640 What did they believe? Why did they make this particular choice? 528 00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:55.329 You know, they turn their back on the idea of 529 00:31:55.390 --> 00:32:00.349 a representative constitutional monarchy. And what was it that made 530 00:32:00.390 --> 00:32:02.250 them do that? And I think it's things like loyalty. 531 00:32:02.309 --> 00:32:04.950 It's a belief in the old church. It's a worry 532 00:32:05.029 --> 00:32:10.869 about the uncertainties and the potential for chaos that there 533 00:32:10.910 --> 00:32:14.509 would be in a kind of in a revolution. And 534 00:32:14.529 --> 00:32:17.029 I think it's really interesting to think about the events 535 00:32:17.069 --> 00:32:17.910 from their point of view. 536 00:32:18.549 --> 00:32:21.289 I agree with you. I'm trying to. go to the 537 00:32:21.430 --> 00:32:24.230 one man who you spend a deal of time with 538 00:32:24.309 --> 00:32:28.569 following his life, John Banks, who I believe starts on 539 00:32:28.730 --> 00:32:31.349 one side and drifts to the middle and then drifts 540 00:32:31.369 --> 00:32:34.380 to the other side. Is that correct? Yes. 541 00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:38.599 And it's, he's, I was, I basically wanted a figure 542 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:42.119 who could sort of represent the, the kind of, I 543 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.279 don't know, the soul of England, if you like, in 544 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:46.700 a way and being forced to make these decisions. And 545 00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:50.170 he was a really interesting one because he, His family 546 00:32:50.210 --> 00:32:54.039 are quite legendary in this country as being the legendary royalists. 547 00:32:54.450 --> 00:32:58.960 Their castle is still kind of very... you know, the 548 00:32:59.009 --> 00:33:00.809 signs around it are

all about how royalist they were. 549 00:33:00.829 --> 00:33:03.970 But actually, his story was much more, much more balanced. 550 00:33:04.230 --> 00:33:06.509 And there's this kind of, so he's a very successful 551 00:33:06.569 --> 00:33:09.529 lawyer from quite a humble background. He was central to 552 00:33:09.750 --> 00:33:13.230 royal government in the 1630s. But he, as you say, 553 00:33:13.269 --> 00:33:17.089 he sort of drifted towards the centre in 1641. And 554 00:33:17.130 --> 00:33:20.490 in 1642, he actually, he was named as one of 555 00:33:20.569 --> 00:33:24.269 the militia commanders by Parliament. So he'd sort of gone 556 00:33:24.329 --> 00:33:26.859 over to or people thought he'd gone over to the 557 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:30.740 parliamentarian side. And then in 1642, he wrote these really 558 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:32.799 kind of moving letters, I think, to all these kind 559 00:33:32.819 --> 00:33:36.440 of parliamentarian figures, trying to get them to come together 560 00:33:36.819 --> 00:33:39.509 and sort things out and trying to sort of bring 561 00:33:39.569 --> 00:33:44.289 things together and create consensus and avoid civil war. But 562 00:33:44.349 --> 00:33:47.569 he was obviously unsuccessful. And I thought that part of 563 00:33:47.609 --> 00:33:52.920 the story, that belief– That kind of, you know, vain belief, really, 564 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:56.089 that these things could be sorted and actually people wouldn't 565 00:33:56.140 --> 00:33:58.589 have to end up taking a decision on one side 566 00:33:58.630 --> 00:34:01.690 or the other was, I thought, really, really interesting and 567 00:34:01.730 --> 00:34:03.970 really humane. And of course, in the end, he did 568 00:34:04.009 --> 00:34:07.930 have to take a decision. He became a royalist. He 569 00:34:07.990 --> 00:34:11.219 died during the Civil War. He didn't die in fighting 570 00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:15.059 and his castle was blown up. So, you know, his 571 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.960 family was ruined. So it was a real kind of 572 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:17.980 tragic ending, I think. 573 00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:20.820 He married well. I want to speak of Mary. 574 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:24.920 Yeah, I mean, yeah, he married well. Mary was an 575 00:34:24.980 --> 00:34:27.860 incredible figure, another one of these incredible figures from the 576 00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:31.110 17th century, had a lot of children. And then she 577 00:34:31.179 --> 00:34:33.409 is now more famous than him because she's the one 578 00:34:33.429 --> 00:34:37.909 who holds on to Corfe Castle against the parliamentarians. And 579 00:34:37.969 --> 00:34:42.389 she's sort of known as Brave Dame Mary because she's 580 00:34:42.449 --> 00:34:45.369 one of these very, very kind of forceful characters who 581 00:34:45.469 --> 00:34:48.340 holds on to castles in the face of real adversity 582 00:34:48.889 --> 00:34:51.369 um so yeah i mean she's a she's a fascinating 583 00:34:51.409 --> 00:34:52.590 character as well and uh. 584 00:34:53.630 --> 00:34:56.630 The war that they made on her was unjust the 585 00:34:56.750 --> 00:35:03.170 parliamentarians become extremely violent i understand the king's forces were 586 00:35:03.210 --> 00:35:06.260 violent too there was nothing but cruelty on all sides 587 00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:10.219 the puzzle is why there wasn't a committee coming forward 588 00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:14.119 for compromise was that ever debated in I know we 589 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:18.880 have the next book to get to. I'm anxious for it. 590 00:35:20.539 --> 00:35:22.460 There were a number of figures here who could have 591 00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:25.559 come forward and say, let's talk about this. Did they, Jonathan? 592 00:35:26.539 --> 00:35:28.880 Yeah, I mean, people did. And that's what Sir John 593 00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:31.440 tries to do. He tries to sort of bring people together. 594 00:35:31.460 --> 00:35:35.340 But I think in 1642, the differences are just irreconcilable 595 00:35:35.380 --> 00:35:38.900 at this point. And the force is on both sides. 596 00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:41.119 And it's not just the kind of radicals on the 597 00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:44.679 parliamentarian side. There's a sort of hardline cavaliers as well, 598 00:35:45.349 --> 00:35:47.550 who are pushing for a military solution. I think they're 599 00:35:47.570 --> 00:35:50.769 the ones who are driving the agenda. And I think 600 00:35:50.889 --> 00:35:52.250 one of the things I'm trying to say in the 601 00:35:52.269 --> 00:35:55.789 book is that at its heart, there is this fundamentally 602 00:35:56.329 --> 00:36:00.909 irreconcilable debate about where does power come from? Does it 603 00:36:00.949 --> 00:36:02.889 come from God or does it come from the people? 604 00:36:02.909 --> 00:36:07.369 And that's ultimately what each side is arguing for. And 605 00:36:07.429 --> 00:36:09.969 obviously there are religious elements too, but I think fundamentally 606 00:36:10.010 --> 00:36:12.300 that's the thing at its heart. And it's quite hard 607 00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:14.880 to see how that will get settled without, um, without 608 00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:17.260 a civil war, I think in, in the 70th century context. 609 00:36:17.619 --> 00:36:19.989 Is Henrietta Maria remembered today, Jonathan? 610 00:36:21.969 --> 00:36:25.469 Not really. And, and actually, um, she is, she has 611 00:36:25.510 --> 00:36:30.150 quite a bad reputation unfairly, maybe, um, she's sort of 612 00:36:30.170 --> 00:36:32.889 seen as being a, a kind of real hardliner who's 613 00:36:32.909 --> 00:36:37.650 sort of pushing the King towards much more militancy, I suppose. 614 00:36:37.670 --> 00:36:40.630 And there's, there's definitely elements of that, but, um, But 615 00:36:40.650 --> 00:36:44.409 I think she's someone who is very, very interesting in 616 00:36:44.429 --> 00:36:47.199 the context of her time. I think he has a 617 00:36:47.219 --> 00:36:52.340 very understandable set of ideas. And, you know, she's a 618 00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:55.559 Catholic in a very, very anti-Catholic country. 619 00:36:58.219 --> 00:37:01.320 Executing monks routinely. Yeah. Yeah. 620 00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:06.280 And, you know, executing, you know, Jesuits and preachers. 621 00:37:06.820 --> 00:37:06.980 Yeah. 622 00:37:08.190 --> 00:37:09.849 I can understand why she was how she was. 623 00:37:09.869 --> 00:37:13.300 The Blood in Winter, Jonathan Healy, waiting for the Civil 624 00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:16.380 War book coming soon. This is CBS Eye on the World. 625 00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:17.760 Thank you, Jonathan. 626 00:37:18.699 --> 00:37:19.909 Thank you very much indeed. 627 00:37:20.090 --> 00:37:20.809 I'm John Batchelor.