S4 Ep103: Exploring Different Zones: Building a Growth Mindset Culture의 전체 녹취록

34 00:02:16,590 --> 00:02:20,100 Ted Talk on learning zone and the performance zone have been 35 00:02:20,250 --> 00:02:24,330 viewed by over 8 million have been viewed over 8 million 36 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:28,890 times. And I'm one of them. His book, the performance paradox, 37 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:32,850 turning the power of mindset into action, will be published 38 00:02:32,850 --> 00:02:37,080 by Penguin Random House in September of this year. He is 39 00:02:37,110 --> 00:02:41,760 Behera Aspen fellow, a member of the Aspen Institute's Global 40 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,050 Leadership Network, and an inductee into happiness Hall of 41 00:02:46,050 --> 00:02:50,100 Fame. Eduardo grew up in Caracas, Venezuela, he holds a 42 00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:53,490 Bachelor degree in economics and engineering from the University 43 00:02:53,490 --> 00:02:57,480 of Pennsylvania, as well as an MBA and MA in education from 44 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,110 Stanford University. Most importantly, he continues to 45 00:03:01,110 --> 00:03:05,520 enjoy lifelong learning every day. And that's exactly while 46 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:11,190 you why you are here, Eduardo, for our listeners to share your 47 00:03:11,790 --> 00:03:15,450 experience and how to actually do that. So welcome again to our 48 00:03:15,450 --> 00:03:16,320 podcast. 49 00:03:16,590 --> 00:03:18,060 Eduardo Briceño: Thank you, Evelyn. Great to be here. I feel 50 00:03:18,060 --> 00:03:19,920 like we have kindred hearts. I look forward to the 51 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:20,670 conversation. 52 00:03:21,030 --> 00:03:23,970 Eveline Oehrlich: Yes, the first one. The first thing which I 53 00:03:23,970 --> 00:03:27,240 really want to know, of course, everything else is exciting, but 54 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,590 happiness Hall of Fame. I did some research and check that 55 00:03:31,590 --> 00:03:36,120 out. You have to tell us about that. What? What is that? 56 00:03:36,630 --> 00:03:39,900 Eduardo Briceño: Yeah, I didn't know either. And it is actually 57 00:03:40,710 --> 00:03:45,420 one of the things I'm most proud of, because, to me, it 58 00:03:45,420 --> 00:03:50,280 symbolizes a lot of change that I have done in myself. I grew up 59 00:03:51,060 --> 00:03:56,130 being very unhappy, actually. And I have really transformed 60 00:03:56,130 --> 00:04:01,560 myself over a lot of years. And I lead a very happy life now 61 00:04:02,310 --> 00:04:05,790 with a lot of joy. And that's, that's involved a lot of change 62 00:04:05,850 --> 00:04:09,030 in myself a lot of work in myself. And so I was doing a 63 00:04:09,030 --> 00:04:13,920 keynote once and afterwards, a man came to me and he said he 64 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,130 was the executive director of the happiness Hall of Fame. And 65 00:04:17,130 --> 00:04:21,030 I hadn't heard of it either. But they had looked at my work and 66 00:04:21,060 --> 00:04:25,140 the impact that they felt that was having on people and how I 67 00:04:25,140 --> 00:04:28,800 was spreading joy. And they wanted to induct me into the 68 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,690 happiness Hall thing so that you know that to me, was striking in 69 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,480 in symbolizing how much of a change I had made myself. 70 00:04:37,260 --> 00:04:40,470 Eveline Oehrlich: Wow. Fantastic. For our listeners, 71 00:04:40,470 --> 00:04:44,760 check it out. There are Eduardo is in great company out there. 72 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:50,160 There are a whole range of folks you you got you listeners will 73 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,090 all recognize. So that's fantastic. Congratulations for 74 00:04:54,090 --> 00:04:59,370 being there. All right. So as I mentioned to you already, when 75 00:04:59,370 --> 00:05:03,300 we did a little bit Have a pre call. I'm a big fan of Professor 76 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:07,410 Carol Dweck work, particularly the work around the growth 77 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:13,140 mindset. But I don't want to assume that everybody on 78 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,210 listening here has actually read her book mindset or is familiar 79 00:05:18,210 --> 00:05:24,450 with. So why don't you share with us a little bit about what 80 00:05:24,750 --> 00:05:26,970 a growth mindset is? 81 00:05:27,900 --> 00:05:30,210 Eduardo Briceño: Sure. And I'm glad you're asking that because 82 00:05:30,210 --> 00:05:35,040 it's something that is really easily to get distorted. It is 83 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,200 something that a lot of people haven't heard about, like you 84 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,780 said, but also a lot of people have, and a lot of people have 85 00:05:39,780 --> 00:05:44,220 read the book you just mentioned Mindset by Carol Dweck. It's 86 00:05:44,250 --> 00:05:48,600 been a bestseller. But even for for people who learn about 87 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:54,720 mindset and do work on mindset, and I'll start there. We, when 88 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,740 we ask people who think they're familiar with growth mindset, 89 00:05:58,770 --> 00:06:02,610 what a growth mindset is, they often describe something 90 00:06:02,610 --> 00:06:06,960 different, like they might say, it's, it means being open 91 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:12,150 minded, or it means working hard or persevering. And a growth 92 00:06:12,150 --> 00:06:14,490 mindset is none of those things. A growth mindset is not 93 00:06:14,490 --> 00:06:17,910 something we do. It's not a behavior. But it's a belief 94 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:21,660 about the nature of human beings is the belief that we can change 95 00:06:21,780 --> 00:06:25,560 the belief that our abilities or qualities are malleable, or we 96 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,030 can develop them. And the reason so for example, if we think that 97 00:06:30,060 --> 00:06:33,390 some people are natural leaders and others aren't, and that's 98 00:06:33,390 --> 00:06:36,420 what determines whether somebody's a good leader, that 99 00:06:36,420 --> 00:06:38,670 would be the opposite of a

growth mindset is what we call a 100 00:06:38,670 --> 00:06:42,390 fixed mindset about leadership. Or if we think that some people 101 00:06:42,390 --> 00:06:45,960 are introverted, and others extroverted, and that's fixed, 102 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,330 those are things that don't change, that would be a fixed 103 00:06:48,330 --> 00:06:52,200 mindset. Versus we can work to develop any of those dimensions 104 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,250 we can we can work to become more introverted, right, like 105 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:59,940 more mindful, more reflective, more more present more 106 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:05,460 comfortable in solitude, and more extroverted, more, more 107 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,910 more in a state of enjoyment when we're with other people, 108 00:07:09,150 --> 00:07:13,740 and great at conversation and great at being funny, or 109 00:07:13,740 --> 00:07:16,740 whatever it is. So those that's different from a fixed mindset. 110 00:07:16,740 --> 00:07:19,770 And a growth mindset is when we see ourselves as fixed, or when 111 00:07:19,770 --> 00:07:22,290 we see ourselves as able to change. And the reason that 112 00:07:22,290 --> 00:07:25,770 that's important, is that what doctor mindset with Dr. Dweck 113 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:31,830 research has shown and lots of other researchers as well now is 114 00:07:31,830 --> 00:07:37,890 that we will try to change the behaviors is really hard if we 115 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,180 are in a fixed mindset. So if we think that we can't change, then 116 00:07:42,510 --> 00:07:46,650 telling somebody, you know, to work hard, or to be open minded, 117 00:07:46,650 --> 00:07:50,580 or to try to experiment beyond the known that doesn't tend to 118 00:07:50,580 --> 00:07:53,820 work if people are thinking that their abilities are fixed, or 119 00:07:53,820 --> 00:07:56,250 that other people's abilities are fixed. And so we need to 120 00:07:56,250 --> 00:07:59,850 work on both changing our beliefs about the nature of 121 00:07:59,850 --> 00:08:02,910 ourselves and others, and changing our behaviors and 122 00:08:02,910 --> 00:08:05,430 habits. And those two things go hand in hand. 123 00:08:06,270 --> 00:08:10,350 Eveline Oehrlich: Interesting. I love that. I wish this book I 124 00:08:10,350 --> 00:08:16,050 haven't really checked, if that book is also in German. I have a 125 00:08:16,050 --> 00:08:20,010 few colleagues who potentially should read this, because we 126 00:08:20,010 --> 00:08:24,900 just had this conversation on these assumptions. And I felt 127 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:29,160 that they had a very fixed mindset. So but I would love 128 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,620 them to read it in German. I will check on that. 129 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,210 Eduardo Briceño: Later, too. I think you know, 17 languages, if 130 00:08:36,210 --> 00:08:39,960 I recall correctly, yes. I bet it is available in German and 131 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:40,950 lots of other languages. 132 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:43,920 Eveline Oehrlich: I will do that research tonight and check with 133 00:08:43,950 --> 00:08:47,730 our favorite retailer, if that's possible, right. So let me know 134 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,180 I would like yeah, yes, absolutely. So how did you 135 00:08:51,180 --> 00:08:54,870 actually get into the space of developing cultures of learning? 136 00:08:56,309 --> 00:09:00,059 Eduardo Briceño: Well, you know, the first time that I got into 137 00:09:00,059 --> 00:09:04,379 learning, I think was a time that we all got into learning, 138 00:09:04,379 --> 00:09:07,829 which is when we when I was really, really young. When I was 139 00:09:07,829 --> 00:09:12,179 a baby, when I was a young kid, I think all of us are passionate 140 00:09:12,179 --> 00:09:16,769 about learning them, right? If you look at a baby or young kid, 141 00:09:16,889 --> 00:09:22,289 they're trying to get up or like crawl and like failing and 142 00:09:22,289 --> 00:09:25,859 trying again, and trying again and trying a different strategy. 143 00:09:26,009 --> 00:09:30,659 Or they might be really looking mesmerized at what we're doing 144 00:09:30,659 --> 00:09:34,709 with our voice in making all these sounds that seem to you 145 00:09:34,709 --> 00:09:36,509 know, we seem to communicate with each other and they don't 146 00:09:36,509 --> 00:09:40,619 understand what's going on. And they're so interested and trying 147 00:09:40,619 --> 00:09:44,819 to understand that eventually they come to understand language 148 00:09:44,819 --> 00:09:47,279 and they come to to understand what it is that we're doing with 149 00:09:47,279 --> 00:09:50,759 our mouths. That's incredible. And so, we have so many 150 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:54,899 questions, right? kids ask so many questions, but then what 151 00:09:54,899 --> 00:10:01,079 happens is that we get to school and in school I think what tends 152 00:10:01,079 --> 00:10:06,119 to happen in school is tragic because schools haven't, the 153 00:10:06,119 --> 00:10:09,809 goal of school hasn't been to develop lifelong learners, 154 00:10:09,809 --> 00:10:14,399 right? It hasn't been to ignite a fire for people to pursue 155 00:10:14,399 --> 00:10:17,369 whatever path they want to pursue, to experiment and 156 00:10:17,369 --> 00:10:22,739 discover, rather, is being to try to teach people some things 157 00:10:22,859 --> 00:10:25,619 that they might not be interested in at the time. And 158 00:10:25,619 --> 00:10:29,909 so we start associating learning with something that's boring and 159 00:10:29,909 --> 00:10:33,779 tedious and like something that we do in school. And when we're 160 00:10:33,779 --> 00:10:35,909 home, we do it only when we're doing homework, and when we're 161 00:10:35,909 --> 00:10:37,949 done with homework, then we're done learning, right, and we go 162 00:10:37,949 --> 00:10:43,589 do something else. And so and so we learn in school, that 163 00:10:43,589 --> 00:10:47,489 learning sucks that

learning is not relevant, it's not useful. 164 00:10:47,699 --> 00:10:52,919 And and we also learn to perform all the time because so many 165 00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:57,569 things in school are graded with a letter or a number that we we 166 00:10:57,599 --> 00:11:00,929 we get the message that what we're supposed to do on a daily 167 00:11:00,929 --> 00:11:04,439 basis is to do things well to do things we already know how to do 168 00:11:04,529 --> 00:11:08,279 to try to minimize mistakes. And so I like many people, I 169 00:11:08,279 --> 00:11:13,259 believe, I went from loving learning, to just trying to 170 00:11:13,259 --> 00:11:18,449 perform and to show that I'm good and to validate myself. And 171 00:11:18,599 --> 00:11:21,899 I ended up you know, after school, like there's no more 172 00:11:21,899 --> 00:11:25,559 tests and almost grades, but the way that the best way that I 173 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,039 could figure out to do well is to get a high paying job, right? 174 00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:32,879 So I I went and I work in the investment banking in New York 175 00:11:32,879 --> 00:11:35,789 City. And I know you, you you worked at Forrester Research 176 00:11:35,789 --> 00:11:40,259 where you were in that kind of similar world as well. Then I 177 00:11:40,349 --> 00:11:43,889 got into venture capital, and I was investing in technology 178 00:11:43,889 --> 00:11:47,039 companies in Silicon Valley. And after a few years of that, you 179 00:11:47,039 --> 00:11:49,769 know, it was it was interesting, but after a few years of that I 180 00:11:49,769 --> 00:11:56,639 realized I actually got physically sick. I was my I got 181 00:11:56,639 --> 00:11:59,789 a repetitive strain injury called myofascial pain syndrome, 182 00:11:59,819 --> 00:12:03,839 it was painful and difficult to use my hands to do simple things 183 00:12:03,839 --> 00:12:07,619 like brushing my teeth or open doors or driving. And I met 184 00:12:07,619 --> 00:12:12,959 people with my condition who had gotten so bad that they couldn't 185 00:12:12,959 --> 00:12:17,909 use their hands for more than 10 minutes a day. So I, I ended up 186 00:12:18,059 --> 00:12:21,239 stretching for an hour and a half for every day for three 187 00:12:21,239 --> 00:12:25,469 years and getting treatment of all kinds. You know, I went to 188 00:12:25,469 --> 00:12:28,289 Washington DC for six weeks to get a particular treatment every 189 00:12:28,289 --> 00:12:31,199 day. So it was a big journey for me to heal. But one of the 190 00:12:31,199 --> 00:12:36,149 things that I learned was that I needed to, I couldn't take my 191 00:12:36,149 --> 00:12:39,899 hands for granted. I couldn't take my ability to do things for 192 00:12:39,899 --> 00:12:43,919 granted. And so I needed to find something that I was passionate 193 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:46,409 about, and that I felt was making a difference in the 194 00:12:46,409 --> 00:12:50,969 world. And so I went to grad school to build that different 195 00:12:50,969 --> 00:12:56,309 path for myself. And over there. I met Carol Dweck. And I read 196 00:12:56,309 --> 00:13:01,499 her book and I, she's my mentor. She's been my mentor for since, 197 00:13:01,649 --> 00:13:05,009 you know, over 15 years, and her work just learning about her 198 00:13:05,009 --> 00:13:09,899 work, I realized how my fixed mindsets had gotten in the way 199 00:13:09,899 --> 00:13:13,559 of my goals. I was self sabotaging. I realized how I 200 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,339 needed to change my thinking and my habits in order to really try 201 00:13:17,339 --> 00:13:20,579 things that I hadn't done before and, and learn and develop 202 00:13:20,579 --> 00:13:24,539 myself. And I realized how a lot of people could benefit from 203 00:13:24,539 --> 00:13:28,559 those same insights that I was gaining from Dr. Dweck. So we 204 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,409 partnered and co founded a company called mindset works. 205 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,579 And I led it for over 15 years, my job became more and more 206 00:13:35,579 --> 00:13:40,019 public speaking. And that's what I'm focused on 100% for for the 207 00:13:40,019 --> 00:13:42,239 last several years now. Wow. 208 00:13:43,140 --> 00:13:48,120 Eveline Oehrlich: fits very well with, with my belief in how we 209 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,350 want to lead our work in the DevOps Institute. Because, 210 00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:56,460 again, if you think about what we do, I'm sure you probably 211 00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:59,580 don't know, but I'll, I'll share it with you and again with 212 00:13:59,610 --> 00:14:04,080 others. We're trying to help. We're not trying but we are we 213 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,380 know we are helping our community members to learn. We 214 00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:11,850 call it upskilling or skill building, right. And we do this 215 00:14:11,850 --> 00:14:15,630 by developing content, we do trainings, we do certifications, 216 00:14:16,170 --> 00:14:20,310 we have events, and we encouraged and fostered a fairly 217 00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:24,690 tight community. We have over I think 90,000 or so fellow 218 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,930 followers on LinkedIn. I just learned that today. And we hope 219 00:14:27,930 --> 00:14:30,360 we can make a difference for these individuals who want to 220 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,680 learn and grow but it is challenging. And so when I went 221 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,330 off to help us give get some insights in this learning and 222 00:14:39,330 --> 00:14:43,740 growth, that's how I found you and I find your explanation on 223 00:14:43,740 --> 00:14:48,030 learning and performance zones extremely helpful. And I would 224 00:14:48,030 --> 00:14:52,080 love for you to share a bit more details with our community 225 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,700 members to help them understand these different zones. So please 226 00:14:56,700 --> 00:15:00,600 do share with us. What are the zones Since you call them 227

00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,800 learning zones and performing zones, and what what must we 228 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,560 know about them for our daily work? 229 00:15:08,519 --> 00:15:11,219 Eduardo Briceño: Sure. So the learning zone and performance 230 00:15:11,219 --> 00:15:15,869 zone came from when I, at some point, my work, businesses 231 00:15:15,869 --> 00:15:18,359 started reaching out to me because they wanted to build a 232 00:15:18,359 --> 00:15:24,689 growth mindset culture. And in those workshops, in getting into 233 00:15:24,689 --> 00:15:27,779 the conversations and trying to help them build a growth, 234 00:15:27,779 --> 00:15:30,749 mindset culture, I tried different frameworks and 235 00:15:30,779 --> 00:15:34,559 different routes to the conversation. And this 236 00:15:34,619 --> 00:15:37,619 particular framework really resonated and became really 237 00:15:37,619 --> 00:15:41,459 helpful for them to generate insight and to align with each 238 00:15:41,459 --> 00:15:44,309 other about how they wanted to foster a growth mindset culture, 239 00:15:44,309 --> 00:15:51,539 and what the the the one that addresses is the the confusion 240 00:15:51,539 --> 00:15:56,459 that a lot of us have, that the way to improve is to work hard. 241 00:15:56,909 --> 00:16:01,109 That is too simplistic, and it gets us into trouble. So the 242 00:16:01,109 --> 00:16:07,019 reality is that there's getting better at things or innovating 243 00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:10,499 is not just about working hard. Because there's two different 244 00:16:10,499 --> 00:16:14,039 types of hard work, there's hard work to get things done as best 245 00:16:14,039 --> 00:16:16,619 as we know how trying to minimize mistakes. That's what 246 00:16:16,619 --> 00:16:20,159 we call the performance zone. But in order to improve, we have 247 00:16:20,159 --> 00:16:24,269 to actually work to go beyond the known and to ask questions 248 00:16:24,269 --> 00:16:27,209 and to experiment and to do things that may or may not work. 249 00:16:27,329 --> 00:16:31,589 That's what we call the Learning Zone. And it is by engaging in 250 00:16:31,589 --> 00:16:34,919 the learning zone that we get better. So my book is called the 251 00:16:34,919 --> 00:16:37,889 performance paradox to performance paradox is the 252 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:42,779 counterintuitive fact that if we perform all the time, we hinder 253 00:16:42,809 --> 00:16:46,469 our performance, we actually stop ourselves from performing 254 00:16:46,469 --> 00:16:49,499 even higher if all we're doing is performing. And that's that 255 00:16:49,499 --> 00:16:53,339 is a paradox, but it's true. And so what we need to do in order 256 00:16:53,339 --> 00:16:56,969 to get better is to go beyond the known and to do things like 257 00:16:56,969 --> 00:17:01,229 when you talk about upskilling and skill building. Those are 258 00:17:01,229 --> 00:17:04,859 the things that happen with great performers, right. So if 259 00:17:04,859 -->

00:17:08,429 you look at a great athlete, for example, if they're playing a 260 00:17:08,429 --> 00:17:11,999 championship final, they're going to be focused on the 261 00:17:11,999 --> 00:17:15,389 things that they do best, and they're trying to minimize 262 00:17:15,389 --> 00:17:17,879 mistakes and be if they have a weakness, they're going to try 263 00:17:17,879 --> 00:17:21,659 to avoid that weakness in that match. That's all for 264 00:17:21,659 --> 00:17:24,539 performance. And because the only goal during the match is to 265 00:17:24,539 --> 00:17:28,049 try to win the game. But what they do after the game is the 266 00:17:28,049 --> 00:17:30,389 learning zone right after the game, if they were having 267 00:17:30,389 --> 00:17:33,149 trouble with a particular move, they're gonna go to their coach 268 00:17:33,149 --> 00:17:36,599 and say, Coach, I need to work on that particular move. And 269 00:17:36,599 --> 00:17:40,349 that's a very different activity and area of attention than what 270 00:17:40,349 --> 00:17:43,019 we do during the match. Right, it's actually completely 271 00:17:43,019 --> 00:17:46,619 different. And it is what they do in the learning zone that 272 00:17:46,619 --> 00:17:50,969 allows them to perform so well, in court in the performance only 273 00:17:50,969 --> 00:17:54,479 if they're only playing games, then they get stuck, right, they 274 00:17:54,479 --> 00:17:57,839 don't get better, in fact that the Williams sisters, which 275 00:17:57,839 --> 00:18:01,379 became the best in the world, Valium played any championships, 276 00:18:01,409 --> 00:18:05,489 any games. For years before they turned professional, they were 277 00:18:05,489 --> 00:18:08,999 just in the performance zone, sorry, in the Learning Zone. So 278 00:18:08,999 --> 00:18:11,999 the learning zone can be a pure learning zone, like taking a 279 00:18:11,999 --> 00:18:17,429 course, or you know, doing you know, reading is a pure learning 280 00:18:17,429 --> 00:18:20,639 zone activity. But we can also integrate these two zones so 281 00:18:20,639 --> 00:18:23,459 that we do them together so that as we're getting things done, 282 00:18:23,699 --> 00:18:26,999 we're doing things in a way that's also going to lead to 283 00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:29,909 insight and to new skills and strategies and to getting 284 00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:35,099 better. And so it's a by integrating these two zones. We 285 00:18:35,129 --> 00:18:38,849 we can get better while also doing all the things we need to 286 00:18:38,849 --> 00:18:40,649 do in our long to do list. 287 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,740 Narrator: Do you want to advance your career and organization we 288 00:18:46,740 --> 00:18:50,520 can help you do that DevOps Institute offers a wide range of 289 00:18:50,550 --> 00:18:54,060 educational experiences for you to begin your upskilling 290 00:18:54,060 --> 00:18:57,300 journey. Whether you're looking for a defined path to 291 00:18:57,300 --> 00:19:01,350 certification, exploring the latest in DevOps, or connecting 292 00:19:01,350 --> 00:19:04,170 with the larger community, we can help you develop the 293 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:08,220 specialized skills needed for the future of it. And it won't 294 00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:11,550 just be good for your career. It will also make you indispensable 295 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:14,850 at work with our lineup of industry recognized DevOps 296 00:19:14,850 --> 00:19:18,780 certifications, digital learning opportunities, and engaging 297 00:19:18,780 --> 00:19:22,500 events. You can connect with our network of experts and expand 298 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:26,550 your potential today. Visit DevOps institute.com and join 299 00:19:26,550 --> 00:19:27,630 our community now. 300 00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:31,050 Eveline Oehrlich: So a quick side note for everybody 301 00:19:31,050 --> 00:19:36,150 listening in. There are some two fantastic TED talks from Eduardo 302 00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:39,210 one is called How to get better at things you care about. Check 303 00:19:39,210 --> 00:19:43,890 that out. The other one is the power of belief. So listeners go 304 00:19:43,890 --> 00:19:48,090 to the TED Talk, easy to find, and listen to it. Let's come 305 00:19:48,090 --> 00:19:53,340 back to what you just said. And this is very specific to our, to 306 00:19:53,370 --> 00:19:58,350 our folks in IT, particularly the DevOps folks and others. We 307 00:19:58,350 --> 00:20:01,800 do a lot of, well, a lot If it's a little bit of an exaggeration, 308 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,780 we do something called a post mortem, right? Actually, it's 309 00:20:06,990 --> 00:20:09,780 because it's such a nasty word, we have renamed it to call the 310 00:20:09,780 --> 00:20:12,900 retrospective, because post mortem sounds like we're killing 311 00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:16,050 something. But we don't want to do that, we want to actually 312 00:20:17,070 --> 00:20:21,630 step back and look at what has happened. And so that, I think, 313 00:20:21,660 --> 00:20:25,770 is an excellent example of an integration of a learning zone 314 00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:27,990 and the performance zone. Would you agree with that? 315 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,080 Eduardo Briceño: Absolutely. Yeah. That's a great way to 316 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,300 integrate the Learn the learnings and the performance on 317 00:20:33,540 --> 00:20:38,130 the retrospective is a wonderful strategy. And it's also kind of 318 00:20:38,130 --> 00:20:40,110 what you know, great performance, like athletes do, 319 00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:42,480 right? They perform. And then afterwards, they might watch a 320 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,870 video and see, hey, let's, let's think about how that game went, 321 00:20:45,870 --> 00:20:48,060 and what can I learn? And what do I need to practice. So that's 322 00:20:48,060 --> 00:20:52,350 the retrospective, in addition to a retrospective, think about 323 00:20:52,380 --> 00:20:56,730 doing

because retrospective, also, can be called an after 324 00:20:56,730 --> 00:21:01,020 action review. That's a term they use in the military. But 325 00:21:01,050 --> 00:21:04,290 and that's great, that's all wonderful. But also consider 326 00:21:04,290 --> 00:21:07,350 doing kind of mid action reviews, something that happens 327 00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:11,790 also kind of in the middle of projects, and as a habit, rather 328 00:21:11,790 --> 00:21:16,830 than only when things go wrong. When when people make a mistake, 329 00:21:16,830 --> 00:21:19,920 it's just we can always get better, right? And so whether it 330 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,820 is after projects, or after there's an incident, which is 331 00:21:23,820 --> 00:21:26,880 wonderful to do think about also, how can you do this 332 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,880 proactively and as a habit, so that you're doing it all the 333 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,550 time regularly. And so it is normalized is something that we 334 00:21:32,550 --> 00:21:35,820 all want to be doing on a regular basis, because we can 335 00:21:35,850 --> 00:21:36,990 all continue to improve. 336 00:21:37,530 --> 00:21:40,560 Eveline Oehrlich: And, and it becomes part of our day. Now, 337 00:21:40,590 --> 00:21:45,060 that I guess is the challenge. Because, again, if I think of my 338 00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:49,080 times in it, I didn't have a lot of time, it was very dynamic, 339 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:54,570 very fast paced, I had lots of performing to do, right. And 340 00:21:54,570 --> 00:21:58,920 even so in, we encourage people to make mistakes and learn from 341 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,120 that. At the same time, because I'm delivering outcomes and 342 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:06,960 values and our lives deliver results. It is very difficult to 343 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,820 actually combine those two and and and kind of integrate them. 344 00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:16,290 Do you have any additional tips for people? What What can our 345 00:22:16,290 --> 00:22:19,410 listeners do is just something would you say? Do this once a 346 00:22:19,410 --> 00:22:23,880 day or once a week or something like this? Because everybody is 347 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,880 probably hungry, saying yeah, this sounds all great. This is 348 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,080 very theoretical, but be in my shoes one day, write anything 349 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,100 you would suggest? 350 00:22:32,580 --> 00:22:35,310 Eduardo Briceño: Sure. So first, yeah, there's there's so 351 00:22:35,310 --> 00:22:38,910 strategies, I'll share a couple. But first, I want to start by 352 00:22:38,910 --> 00:22:44,640 just recognizing the issue, which is that if we only stay 353 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:50,400 only worried about getting the tasks done, then over time, 354 00:22:50,460 --> 00:22:54,150 we're going to make to be to have a lot less time, right? If 355 00:22:54,150 --> 00:22:57,780 we want to create time and make more time both for learning

and 356 00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:01,410 for performance, then we have to find ways to work smarter. And 357 00:23:01,410 --> 00:23:05,640 to get more work more done, like more important things done in 358 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,910 less time. And the way to find that is to engage in the 359 00:23:08,910 --> 00:23:12,330 learning zone. So so we have to figure out a way to engage in 360 00:23:12,330 --> 00:23:15,360 the learning zone, so that we have more time, right so we can 361 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:20,490 create time. And and so in general, one way to get started 362 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,330 is to do something as like doesn't take a lot of time is 363 00:23:24,330 --> 00:23:28,710 very, very quick. And that you can do frequently. So rather 364 00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:32,880 than try to say block two hours every Friday like which is 365 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,930 becomes really hard. It's better to just spend like five minutes 366 00:23:36,930 --> 00:23:39,690 a day doing something or even just one minute a day. Because 367 00:23:39,690 --> 00:23:44,490 what that that Prime's a growth mindset and an interest. And 368 00:23:44,490 --> 00:23:47,700 then it is it is very frequent. So we start building a habit, 369 00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:50,250 and then it becomes easier to go from one minute to three 370 00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:53,250 minutes, and from five minutes to 10 minutes, or then even 371 00:23:53,250 --> 00:23:57,240 more. So just to change our thinking as we're going about 372 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,210 getting things done throughout the day. So we're just paying 373 00:24:00,210 --> 00:24:03,150 more attention to the things that we can learn isn't isn't 374 00:24:03,150 --> 00:24:05,760 doesn't really involve doing something differently. But it 375 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,820 involves paying attention to the things that we can learn. In 376 00:24:08,820 --> 00:24:14,850 fact, there's research that shows that for people measured 377 00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:18,510 people's mindset, so they ask them things like, Do you believe 378 00:24:18,510 --> 00:24:22,110 that you can become smarter? And for the people who answered yes, 379 00:24:22,140 --> 00:24:25,560 I believe I can become smarter. They looked at people's brains 380 00:24:25,590 --> 00:24:28,950 inside of a brain scan machine. And they while they were solving 381 00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:32,280 problems inside of the machine. And what they realized is that 382 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,920 people who thought they could become smarter, so who had a 383 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,830 growth mindset about intelligence, their brain was 384 00:24:37,860 --> 00:24:41,100 more active when they were getting information about what 385 00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:44,520 mistakes they made during the problems. And so they learn from 386 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,920 those mistakes, and they were more effective in solving 387 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,740 subsequent problems. So they became

better problem solvers, 388 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,890 because they paid more attention to our mistakes. And they pay 389 00:24:52,890 --> 00:24:54,720 more attention to mistakes because they thought they could 390 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,600 become smarter. And so they weren't spending any more time 391 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,020 solving problems. They were all just solving problems. but some 392 00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:03,810 of them were paying attention to what they could learn and others 393 00:25:03,810 --> 00:25:06,630 weren't. And that made all the difference. But some something 394 00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:09,900 that is very simple that anybody can do. And I think it's really, 395 00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:15,060 really powerful is to build a habit to every morning remind 396 00:25:15,090 --> 00:25:19,260 ourselves of what it is that I'm working to improve. We're like, 397 00:25:19,260 --> 00:25:23,430 what one thing am I working to get better at right now and, and 398 00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:27,510 review that every morning. And what that does is first, it 399 00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:30,420 makes sure that you're always working at improving something, 400 00:25:30,780 --> 00:25:34,740 a that be that's top of mind so that you're thinking throughout 401 00:25:34,740 --> 00:25:37,200 the day and identifying opportunities to improve so that 402 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,870 when something comes up, you're like, oh, that's relevant to 403 00:25:39,870 --> 00:25:42,480 what I'm interested in and you pay more attention to it right? 404 00:25:42,690 --> 00:25:46,800 And then it Prime's a growth mindset, it Prime's the reminder 405 00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:50,430 that we can always continue to improve and develop ourselves. 406 00:25:51,180 --> 00:25:54,060 And so it gets us to think differently throughout the day, 407 00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:56,430 every day. So that's just one example of something simple that 408 00:25:56,430 --> 00:25:57,060 we can all do. 409 00:25:57,630 --> 00:26:00,150 Eveline Oehrlich: Perfect, fantastic. I am going to make 410 00:26:00,150 --> 00:26:05,670 that for myself important. So let's talk about quickly on the 411 00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:08,760 upcoming book, the performance paradox, turning the power of 412 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:16,410 mindset into action. It's releasing September 5 2023. Give 413 00:26:16,410 --> 00:26:20,850 us a few things, what to look out for what's in that book, I 414 00:26:20,850 --> 00:26:24,180 already ordered it. So I'll share with everybody else how to 415 00:26:24,210 --> 00:26:28,080 preorder it but give us a little bit of a like two minutes on, 416 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,170 what can we find in it? Sure. And 417 00:26:31,170 --> 00:26:32,700 Eduardo Briceño: thank you for pre ordering. And and yes, it's 418 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:36,270 available for preorder in any bookseller now. And yeah, I'll 419 00:26:36,270 --> 00:26:38,040 describe a little bit the structure that sounds good, 420 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:44,460 because it also gives people an idea of what kinds of things we 421 00:26:44,460 --> 00:26:47,370 can all work on in order to become better at learning and 422 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,940 performing. So the book is has has three parts. The first one 423 00:26:51,090 --> 00:26:54,390 is driving individual growth, which is about individual growth 424 00:26:54,390 --> 00:26:58,200 and the foundational ideas. Part two is about overcoming the 425 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,590 performance paradox in teams and organizations. So how do we 426 00:27:01,590 --> 00:27:04,770 create strong teams and organizations? And part three is 427 00:27:04,770 --> 00:27:07,860 from individual transformation to global impact? So how do we 428 00:27:07,860 --> 00:27:11,370 take everything we're learning and apply it in the performance 429 00:27:11,370 --> 00:27:14,730 zone and apply it to change lives. So in part one, about 430 00:27:14,730 --> 00:27:18,420 individual growth, like Chapter One is about the performance 431 00:27:18,420 --> 00:27:21,390 paradox, which describes what the challenge is the problem. 432 00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:24,810 Chapter Two is the solution, which is about the two zones 433 00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:26,400 that we talked about the learning zone and the 434 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,970 performance zone. Chapter Three is about integrating the two 435 00:27:29,970 --> 00:27:33,330 zones so that we do them together, right? So instead, 436 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:37,110 it's not about learning by doing because we don't learn by doing, 437 00:27:37,260 --> 00:27:39,810 but it's about learning while doing how do we change the way 438 00:27:39,810 --> 00:27:44,670 we do things in order to, to also improve? Chapter Four is 439 00:27:44,670 --> 00:27:48,540 about six essential learning strategies that we can all use. 440 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,630 Chapter Five is about mistakes. And mistakes are interesting, 441 00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:55,500 because mistakes on one hand, we know that we can learn from 442 00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:59,160 mistakes, and on the other hand, mistakes, lower performance. And 443 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,930 so Chapter Five is about getting more and more nuanced 444 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,110 understanding of mistakes and getting clear about how can we 445 00:28:07,140 --> 00:28:10,230 elicit mistakes in a way that's going to increase learning, but 446 00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:12,870 also increased performance as well. And when do we want to 447 00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:17,910 avoid mistakes. Chapter Six is about common misconceptions 448 00:28:17,910 --> 00:28:21,240 about learning and about growth mindset that gets in the way of 449 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,770 growth. Chapter Seven is about a framework called the growth 450 00:28:25,770 --> 00:28:29,400 propeller, which is the five key elements that drive growth that 451 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,970 any of us can work on in order to

become stronger learners and 452 00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:37,200 performance. And those are our identity, our purpose, our 453 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,620 beliefs, our habits, and our community. And so that's part 454 00:28:40,620 --> 00:28:43,770 one of the book. Part two is about teams and organizations. 455 00:28:43,950 --> 00:28:47,760 So chapter eight is about visions of a strong learning 456 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,600 organization with examples of very, very strong learning and 457 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,050 performing organizations. Chapters nine and 10 are about 458 00:28:55,050 --> 00:29:00,750 teams, chapters, 11 and 12, are about how to lead for growth to 459 00:29:00,750 --> 00:29:04,170 leadership. And finally, the third, the final part of the 460 00:29:04,170 --> 00:29:08,790 book, chapter 13, is about the performance zone, what can we do 461 00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:11,970 in the performance zone in order to perform at our best, and 462 00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:16,080 chapter 14 is about how overcoming the paradox changes 463 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:21,510 lives. So not only can we get to better destinations, and to 464 00:29:21,570 --> 00:29:25,740 improve and to increase our results, but in in overcoming 465 00:29:25,740 --> 00:29:28,890 the performance paradox, we also change the process, right what 466 00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:34,380 what the experience of life and work feels like? Because we find 467 00:29:34,380 --> 00:29:37,560 more joy, we find more happiness, we also experience 468 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,250 less anxiety, less depression, and we build deeper 469 00:29:41,250 --> 00:29:43,800 relationships with each other because we become more curious. 470 00:29:43,860 --> 00:29:46,350 We're more supportive of one another we learn about each 471 00:29:46,350 --> 00:29:48,690 other's needs and perspectives. We can learn more from each 472 00:29:48,690 --> 00:29:52,950 other. And so we we change not only this nation, but also the 473 00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:55,050 process and the everyday life that we live. 474 00:29:56,130 --> 00:29:59,220 Eveline Oehrlich: Beautiful. I cannot wait. I kind of wish it's 475 00:29:59,220 --> 00:30:02,430 September. So I can't have it. But then the year will be over. 476 00:30:02,430 --> 00:30:06,780 So we'll we'll look forward to it if anybody on the call or on 477 00:30:06,780 --> 00:30:12,060 this listening into it is easily preorder PL orderable add 478 00:30:12,060 --> 00:30:19,050 performance paradox.com Go there and, and preorder it. So we have 479 00:30:19,050 --> 00:30:22,560 come to the end, I have one more question for you. What do you do 480 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,320 for fun? Well, you 481 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,410 Eduardo Briceño: know, I feel so grateful that from so many 482 00:30:28,410 --> 00:30:31,290 things, I mean, the first thing I do every morning is to express 483 00:30:31,290 --> 00:30:37,800 gratitude for so many things. But I find most of my days like 484 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,970 really fun. And I'm I'm very privileged that way. But some of 485 00:30:41,970 --> 00:30:45,090 the things kind of outside of work because I love my work, and 486 00:30:45,090 --> 00:30:47,880 I have fun in my work. But some of the things I do outside of 487 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,600 work is I've been playing more and more tennis with my wife we 488 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,380 played yesterday and the prior day. And we're really enjoying 489 00:30:55,410 --> 00:30:58,260 kind of being playful and challenging one another in the 490 00:30:58,260 --> 00:31:03,480 tennis court. I also travel a lot for work, and my wife does 491 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,930 too. So we like traveling with each other and kind of when I 492 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,260 when I'm in a place I take some time to either visit a museum or 493 00:31:10,260 --> 00:31:12,900 see somebody there that I haven't seen in a long time as 494 00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:16,230 something that that I enjoy doing as well. But I love my 495 00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:22,020 work. I love how I'm I'm you know, in a way obsessed about 496 00:31:22,020 --> 00:31:25,560 it, and I like being obsessed about it. So I'm privileged to 497 00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:27,360 kind of have fun throughout the day, every day. 498 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,660 Eveline Oehrlich: I can feel that I can sense it through 499 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,170 through the through the lines of communication with you. This has 500 00:31:34,170 --> 00:31:38,220 been absolutely wonderful. We have been talking to Eduardo 501 00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:41,070 percent. Your Thank you, Eduardo. This has been a very, 502 00:31:41,340 --> 00:31:45,360 very, very nice treat for our listeners and for myself. Thanks 503 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,990 again for joining me today on humans of DevOps podcast. 504 00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:50,940 Eduardo Briceño: Thank you, Evelyn. It's great to speak with 505 00:31:50,940 --> 00:31:51,210 you. 506 00:31:52,740 --> 00:31:55,140 Eveline Oehrlich: Humans of DevOps podcast is produced by 507 00:31:55,140 --> 00:31:58,860 DevOps Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia 508 00:31:58,860 --> 00:32:02,550 Papp and Brendan Leigh and Daniel Schultz Newman, shout out 509 00:32:02,550 --> 00:32:07,410 to my teammates who make this really great equate production. 510 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,950 I'm humans of DevOps podcast executive producer Evelyn 511 00:32:10,950 --> 00:32:14,250 earlyish. If you would like to join us on a podcast, please 512 00:32:14,250 --> 00:32:20,880 contact us at humans of DevOps podcast at DevOps institute.com. 513 00:32:21,180 --> 00:32:24,930 And I said that this time without really tripping up so I 514 00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:26,910 remember literally talk to you soon. 515 00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:31,050 Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of 516 00:32:31,050 --> 00:32:34,590 DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get 517 00:32:34,590 --> 00:32:37,950 access to even more great resources like this. Until next 518 00:32:37,950 --> 00:32:41,430 time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. 519 00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:42,480 You belong