Better Tools, Better Judgment?의 전체 녹취록

00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:19.600 And and so, you know, in general, we would say that technology should increase the capability of the operator without replacing the judgment skill or accountability of the operator, because that's the first thing that that kind of starts to happen is that you know, it becomes something that a technology that supports a person to now it's just the people supporting the technology. 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:29.839 And the companies that build this stuff, you know, maybe they're really good at they spend a lot of money and research into like user interface and how people interact with it, but but it's not operational. 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:37.279 It's literally how you use the system at a, you know, like hey, the the this is how the system works. 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:39.519 Here's where you click, here's where you enter the information. 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:41.279 It's not really like, okay, but that's great. 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:45.040 I know how to use this thing, but how do I go operationalize this? 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:46.800 How do I go use this in real environments? 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:49.360 And not enough time is is ever spent in that area. 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:50.800 So while we're talking about Flock. 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:53.600 So this technology has existed for years. 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:58.800 So, Greg, why does Flock suddenly seem to be part of this public conversation? 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:00.399 Why is it a household name now? 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:08.879 Yeah, well, because of the speed of information, first of all, because it wouldn't have made multiple newspaper articles or magazine articles back in the day, right? 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:19.600 But anytime machine-generated information enters a human decision-making system, it fundamentally alters the cognitive mechanisms that dictate perception, belief, and action. 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:28.000 And that disrupts how we normally construct baselines, evaluate things like risk, process environmental reality, and that scares people. 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:29.279 I'll give you an example. 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:34.399 Not too long ago, they came up with a fancy new thing called a laser rangefinder. 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:37.199 And first it was only for military applications. 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:41.439 Then every golfer, hunter, sniper used them, right? 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:42.399 And now it's common. 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:44.240 So you're not going to see an article about it. 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:52.319 But your argument at the very beginning that technology should increase the capability of the operator without replacing the judgment. 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:54.720 Well, what does the laser range finder do? 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:58.000 You don't notice you don't have it until you don't have it. 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:02.079 Because listen, for a hunter, it's great because you take a more ethical shot. 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:09.360 Uphill, downhill, at distance, you know, in in rocky terrain, you can get fooled on how far that animal is and injure an animal. 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:10.720 Same thing with the sniper. 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:15.279 You'll be more lethal if you know exactly the dope on that scope, right? 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:15.759 Yeah. 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:17.519 And then we come to golfing. 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:18.800 Uh yeah. 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:24.879 But now I'm taking out my judgment and I'm impacting my skill, and it becomes a competition. 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:26.399 So that became the argument. 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:35.439 Not about we could ethically kill animals or people at a greater distance, but it was, hey, you're cheating if you use that to determine distances and all this other stuff. 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:36.800 So what's different now? 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:44.399 Well, again, machine-generated information, a human has to process that information, and it's cognitively different. 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:48.399 It doesn't come at us the same way because there's no problem solving. 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:52.480 See, the the sense making the decision making is inhibited. 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:58.879 So to great example too, especially with the laser rangefinder, because it's different in all those contexts, right? 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:09.199 And then now you're, I mean, that that's a so it I I I like that, you know, the the hunter sniper versus the golfer is a good example because it's a it has a different impact. 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:13.040 So with with these the those flock camera systems, right? 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:17.439 They didn't invent the idea of you know automated license plate recognition. 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:18.720 They didn't come up with that. 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:27.519 But obviously, you know, what's changed is sort of the scale, the accessibility of it, the effects, the visibility, the public awareness, right? 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:37.439 It's now this recognizable name and and technology and kind of makes for a useful case study for a much larger question about technology adoption. 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:52.079 So one of the things that it has is like, you know, people get into different, you know, benefits and and and and and you know, negatives of it, but like what you know, you you just gave your example of the golf and the versus the sniper. 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:57.040 So sort of what should be the relationship between the operator and the technology? 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:01.839 Because we were just at the National Tactical Officers Association conference, right? 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:04.879 And had met some amazing folks down there. 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:14.560 And I spoke with he was he attended our presentation, a very highly experienced state trooper, and he specializes in interdiction. 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:20.319 And so his concern was not that flock doesn't work or that

there aren't benefits, right? 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:32.879 He his big concern is that these younger troopers were relying on this technology instead of developing the traditional, you know, interdiction skills that he spent years learning and he teaches, right? 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:42.240 He he teaches uh for a number of different places, but so he saw it as a different, like obviously the generational gap and how it changes their behavior, it changes their level of competence. 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:44.240 So what do you think he was recognizing there? 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:48.080 Yeah, so again, tech alters what people notice. 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:52.960 So in human behavior pattern recognition analysis, that's called attentional hijacking. 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.519 You can only attend to so many things at one time. 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.799 You can only use 100% of your attention, right? 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:07.840 So when something takes over a big part of my essay, my situational awareness, I have to surrender part of my pattern matching and part of my sense-making skills. 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:10.399 So we don't need to recognize patterns. 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:19.600 We don't need to make sense of incoming stimuli because this external modem, this external media, the synthetic media, inputs a template straight into our brain. 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.159 And Brian, that takes out a critical step. 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.320 And once we take out that critical step, the first time, not so much of a bother. 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.480 The first five times, not so much. 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:32.080 But on seventh, your brain goes, go on, and now we're fucked. 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:36.559 Pardon my language, but because what happens is we don't have that ability anymore. 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:39.840 And if we didn't have it with us, we're not going to be able to create it. 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:44.399 In the old days, there used to be a hot sheet, and the hot sheet was on the visor of every patrol car. 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:47.440 And you reddit it on duty and you did a pass down log with it. 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:53.519 And on that hot sheet was any important felony warrants and important stolen vehicles that you might run into, right? 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:55.679 And it was short and it was right to the point. 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:57.519 You had to look, Brian. 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:02.320 You had to take that and read it and make sense of it and then actively look for it. 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:04.000 And that's what Pruma's talking about. 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:11.600 I apologize for name dropping them, but but that's what's lacking in those troopers and those officers that get to rely on the system. 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:22.320 So in this is let's let's dive into that a little bit because um this is a really good way of explaining how this technology really affects us in the moment. 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:27.919 So this is a good one where this, I think he was from Colorado that was what I was talking to at this conference. 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:30.240 Yeah. 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:45.200 And so, you know, in and what he's talking about is this is you just let's say that normal position, you know, uh you're doing that interdiction job and you're watching and you're observing and you're reading baselines and you're looking for anomalies and you're seeing these incongruent signals, right? 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:46.320 So you're developing this. 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:53.279 But then what happens is, you know, your your brain is creating an explanatory storyline. 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:56.639 It's saying, here's what I think it likely is, but uh, you know what? 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.559 I have to do some math first, right? 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:04.720 I gotta check things, I have to establish reasonable suspicion, then I have to do this, and it has to meet certain criteria. 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.759 I have to be this is all happening in in nanoseconds, right? 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:08.559 Unconsciously. 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:12.159 And I I give the the the exam, and then and then you act on that story. 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:21.360 So what I'm saying is like you're viewing this, you know, situation, you've created this explanatory story on your line, and then you make your decisions based on that story. 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:40.080 And so it's not unlike, you know, if you're driving down, you know, a state road, rural area, and then all of a sudden, you know, you're doing 50 miles an hour, then all of a sudden up ahead you see a deer poke its head, you know, out of the tree line towards the road, you're gonna start walking towards the road, and you immediately you might lock up the brakes, you'll slow down, whatever. 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:44.639 And so what you're doing is you're not saying, oh my god, deer hit the brakes. 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.639 Your brain has already said, that deer looks like it's gonna cross the road. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:56.000 And if it crosses the road, I won't stop in time and it's gonna destroy my vehicle, and I'm gonna kill that deer, and I could get hurt, and so I'm going to slow down. 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.080 So, so that's what it actually did. 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:07.840 So when now I replace that sense making part that happens in nanoseconds with I'm looking at a screen, it's giving me the story. 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.279 So it's alright, and so my brain goes, oh, okay, that's the story. 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:25.200 And so it locks in on that as if this is a, you know, it's like it has a higher level of authority, or or there's there's more robustness in this story than something I created in my head from my own observations. 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:27.039 And that's not always true, right? 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:31.039 So so our brain takes that as this like, oh, okay, it's a stolen

vehicle. 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:31.519 I know. 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:35.360 Well, if I had to do that on my own, there would still be some doubt, right? 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:40.799 If I'm watching the situation, I go, man, it it looks like a description of one that I know was stolen. 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:50.240 The guy's driving it similar to I've seen others, like there's still an element of I need to prove this first, or I need to be able to articulate this before I make a decision. 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:54.720 When it pops up on a screen, it gives me, we go, well, this is the machine they gave me. 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:56.879 This is what they told me to use. 00:12:57.039 --> 00:12:59.759 This is what it says, so I'm acting on it. 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:00.240 Yeah. 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:00.480 Yeah. 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:02.559 And so go ahead. 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:02.720 Yeah. 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:03.840 It's great. 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:11.600 So, so the idea of your story about the deer and the process that humans go through in cognition is exactly right. 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:26.480 The problem is, is if a machine is doing that for you and for your car to avoid that danger, it's giving you a story and your brain will read that story and start accepting that data even if it's not true, even if it's wrong or flawed. 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:28.320 That's where the the rub is. 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:34.159 So the reason I mentioned Prim, Prim does interdiction and training for Western State. 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:40.559 The guy that we were talking to, Brian, great guy, he's retiring in just a couple of months, does interdiction for Colorado State Patrol. 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:46.399 We've had interdict folks from FDLE, a lot of them come up because these skills help them, right? 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:52.960 And and so the skill that you're talking about, and I read a great book once, folks, get your hands on a book and read it once in a while. 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:56.720 I read a great book, and inside of it, it talks about the salience effect. 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:58.480 And I'm like, well, what does that mean? 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:04.480 Well, our brains inherently respond to the most salient, the most attention-getting cue in our environment. 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:19.679 So machine-generated feeds hijack our cognitive process and cause us to miss the subtle critical ground truth anomalies that make us want to pull over that vehicle, that make that vehicle interesting, that make us want to develop reasonable suspicion because it's done for us. 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:20.799 It's made for us. 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:27.039 That's why we get fat, because instead of hunting and producing our own food, we go and open something and eat it, right? 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:31.679 So then we eat all the shit that's in it, all the sugar and the fat grams and everything else. 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:32.960 We don't think about it,

right? 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:38.639 I would say always be suspicious of machine-generated probable cause because you weren't there. 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:46.879 You didn't do the work, you didn't have a robust, fidelity-filled uh decision-making process that started with sense making and problem solving. 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.759 So continuous electronic comms are bombarding us. 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:53.120 And that'll lead to the erosion of sensory skills over time. 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:57.039 Now, somebody's gonna argue with me and they're gonna go, yeah, but that may take months or years. 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:57.440 Yeah. 00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:59.120 Can a cop avoid that? 00:14:59.360 --> 00:14:59.679 No. 00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:03.039 And so therefore, you buy it when you buy that gear. 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.919 It dampens your micro observation abilities. 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:09.679 It tells you don't worry about the thing on the left or the thing on the right. 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:10.720 This is more important. 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:12.960 How many times are you gonna fight with your brain? 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:16.080 Cognition has kept us along alive this long, right? 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.320 And now all of a sudden you're saying, well, yeah, it's my same argument with AI. 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.759 I I get arguing with AI to write a better story. 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:24.480 I get that. 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:27.600 But creating a story for you, that's the rub, Brian. 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:29.039 Your brain doesn't like that. 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:31.200 Your brain wants to be an active part. 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:36.480 And somebody, again, is going to argue, well, conservation of calories, not on survival stuff. 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:44.320 Your brain conserves calories specifically for survival, and it considers this a stolen plate, a felony warrant, those kind of things. 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:48.480 It considers that's a danger that's serious enough that it might take your life. 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:50.000 That's why we're on this. 00:15:50.320 --> 00:16:00.639 Well, and even with the different like large language models and AI systems and the use of it, they're already showing that people like who constantly engage with that or do that in a sense, well, I'm just gonna use this for everything. 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:05.039 Like, there's a huge reduction in cognitive like development. 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:06.879 There's a huge reduction in cognitive use. 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:08.559 You just kind of like it makes you dumber. 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:16.720 And I remember even talking on one of the episodes about right when I moved to Minnesota and I was using my, you know, you know, Google Maps for everything to get around. 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:19.679 And then, you know, because I didn't know where anything was, brand new area, right? 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:21.840 I got fine grocery store, literally. 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.559 And and then after a month, I was like, wait a minute, like I don't know where anything is. 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:28.480 I don't know what that street name is. 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:34.000 And it was like I had never had that experience because I wasn't, you know, I wasn't born with the technology, right? 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:41.600 And when I've used it before in the past, I used it in an area where I knew, and it was how you know, what's the best traffic route, what's the best times, because it's stuff got really good at it. 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:48.559 But and so I literally had to turn it off and be like, okay, look at the directions, find the street name, and then then set the phone down and go drive and go, oh, there it is. 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:51.600 Oh, I missed my turn, got to go back because that builds up. 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:52.960 Now I'm now I'm building it. 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:58.240 So, you know, you know, that that's always that's always going to be a huge issue when we start adopting these things. 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.720 That it's not looked at, it's not looked at as a trade-off. 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:05.759 No, no, and let me let me throw one at you there because you know Jaeger, you know, the the Sharpe human. 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:13.519 So Jaeger and I were out off of the La Brea Tarpit uh area, and we were doing an operation. 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:20.480 And during the operation, we had radios, and we had cars, and we had all this other stuff, and I got hopelessly lost trying to find the area. 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.519 We were building what became Combat Hunter at the time. 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.079 How do you find certain things interesting? 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:27.839 Why is this more interesting than the other? 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:34.720 So we're working with the coppers on the streets, and so I go, I'm not gonna embarrass myself and pop up and go, hey, I'm at this intersection, how do I get to you? 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:35.039 Right. 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:39.599 So I pull over at a bus stop and I walk up to a female that had some bags and everything else. 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:40.960 And I asked her, I go, I'm here. 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:41.680 How do we get there? 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:42.720 And she goes, go down. 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:44.480 When you see the in and out, take a left. 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.000 You go all but about halfway down the block, and there's a car wash on your right side. 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:49.279 Big, big car wash. 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:50.079 It's that turn. 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:50.880 And I go, great. 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:52.720 So first of all, she gave me landmarks. 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:55.119 She didn't give me GPS with streets and distances. 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:59.039 And when I got back in the car, Jaeger goes, There was 17 people at the bus stop. 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:00.240 Why did you

go straight to her? 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.480 I go, she's a female with her groceries. 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:03.759 She's taking the bus. 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:06.559 Who else knows the time and the routes and the distances? 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:09.119 She doesn't want that gosh damn ice cream to melt. 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:10.640 She knows those things, right? 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.319 And he was like, wow, that's pretty good. 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:18.319 No, that's what happens when we reason, when we think through, when when the answer is given to us. 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:21.680 Uh I would make the argument that calculators make us dumber. 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.759 I see now, because I eat a lot. 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:27.920 I see now when we go to airport restaurants, they calculate the tip for you. 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:30.640 So all you got to do is add the numbers that they already made. 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.160 That pisses me off because it takes your thought press out of it. 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:35.440 Here's the suggestion. 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:36.720 Go with our suggestion. 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:37.920 How do you know that's right? 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.799 How do you know somebody didn't have their thumb on the scale, Brian? 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:44.880 Well, yeah, and that's that's any data or information we always do that. 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.640 People take it for, oh, well, this thing told me that, and this study said that. 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:56.079 And it's like, okay, well, you know, it's five out of six people enjoy playing Russian roulette, you know. 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.359 But that last that one guy, he's a home game. 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.000 Well, we couldn't we couldn't couldn't get his opinion on it. 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:08.720 But but the idea is can can any of this then just sticking with that kind of you know let me say right there for just one one second. 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:17.200 Can can technology improve somebody's performance before they have actually developed the underlying competence? 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:22.000 Like can it act as a bridge or a band-aid or something that that helps someone out? 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:31.279 So so so you and I didn't understand the chemical comp chemical composition of Curlix before we had to use it in combat combat. 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:34.319 We were happy to use it because we saw a difference, right? 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:40.960 So the idea was there, the performance, meaning the use case, was strong enough that we didn't have the competence. 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:43.039 We just knew that this was likely going to be some. 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:47.119 And for people that don't get that reference, let's talk about uh uh something different. 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:48.400 Optics, okay? 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.920 Thermals, uh, night vision, spotting scopes, okay? 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.559 We we didn't have to be good at them. 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:58.319 We just had to hold them up to our eye and go, wow, and you could learn on the fly. 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.440 Now, were there mistakes fallen uh because I had no depth perception? 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:02.160 Do you get what I'm saying? 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:02.640 Making those. 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:07.920 But but the the idea was the performance was there before I had the competence. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.319 And and the the an additional one call back to the anti-stop brakes. 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:21.680 When we first got airbacks in the the scout cars, you didn't have to be very smart because the airbag took over when you made that calculated risk and did the error, right? 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:23.200 And the airbag went off in your face. 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:24.799 You go, wow, I don't want to do that again. 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.200 The idea was that I just crashed. 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.519 It took over right at the moment of crash. 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:31.839 So I learned things afterwards. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:33.839 So I didn't have the competence going in. 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.960 And those are good things. 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:45.279 But but I would say that most of those, except for thermals and those type of things, are intermediate to low-end opt uh technology rather than the high-tech that we're seeing now, right? 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:49.839 The high tech, my my fear only because I'm an old guy, is that it goes too fast. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:53.599 And when processing goes too fast, it outpaces our cognition. 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.079 And when it does, we fall for things. 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:03.119 We will believe it, just like a magician's trick, until somebody comes back and slows it down and we go, holy crap, I never considered that. 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.559 Well, if you don't consider something, then it's not in your reasoning. 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:09.119 It's not in your sense making or problem solving. 00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:09.839 Yeah. 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:17.279 So that kind of brings us into like what does this, you know, back to the the kind of flock uh uh cameras and stuff. 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.599 It's like what you know, no one's asking, what does this technology actually know, right? 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:27.119 Because if something like this generates an alert, what what does the machine actually know? 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:38.720 Like, because it could know certain characteristics about a vehicle with a certain plate at a certain place and time, but you know, another database may associate that information with something else, right? 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:48.880 It doesn't medically like it doesn't say anything like who is driving, right uh, why they're there, whether the information is current, whether the database entry is correct, when it's been updated. 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:51.359 Cause it

because the time and location of stuff is important. 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.400 You know, now it becomes like, oh yeah, this was absolutely what they were doing here. 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:55.759 Well, now it's a girls' school. 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.759 It's like, you know, it's like, oh, wait a minute, whoops, we didn't update the database on. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.440 This before we fired away with this technology and look at what happened. 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:05.519 So I always look at it from that point. 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:14.720 And so these conclusions that you're talking about that I take at face value, like they they still require some sort of interpretation. 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:16.480 It's essential. 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:26.160 One of the things that Brian does in class all the time, Brian's an incredible instructor, and and he's developed some great strategies over the year to laser focus in on stuff. 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:38.880 And the one thing when we're talking about a dispatch and and how information can be mistaken, Brian says, okay, so I call dispatch and I go, hey, listen, I'm in a room and I'm surrounded by people and they all have guns. 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:40.480 And then they're all staring at me. 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:42.480 Yeah, yeah, you get what I'm trying to say. 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.960 So here, that's a very different thing. 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:53.119 So what happens is if Compers on the road spot a man with the gun, the recognition of the gun is important, yet it's not as important as the intent. 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:59.759 So whether that person poses a threat or what the situation may actually mean in context, it takes a human to determine that. 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:10.799 So you remember not too long ago, probably 25 years ago, I'm guessing, they had the new scanner where as you were driving in the vehicle, it would scan people and show whether they had a gun or not, a concealed weapon. 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:19.119 Now it could also show stuff in their pockets like wallets and it showed change, but it also showed the people as naked because it did away with the clothing. 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.519 So you got to see nipples and penises. 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:27.599 And everybody went absolutely batshit because that technology was rolled out so quickly for a good reason. 00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:30.079 Yeah, then all of a sudden, guess what? 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.400 All of a sudden the accordion effect caught up to it, and people go, Yeah, but you're seeing that person naked. 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:39.519 So we have to balance that because the machine knows more than you think it knows, first of all. 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:51.599 And so if the machine is programmed, can it still tell whether it's a male or a female or a black or a white or an Asian or Hispanic person that's behind the wheel? 00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:55.440 Well, if it can read the digits on a plate, it

can certainly read things like that. 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:57.680 Could it likely read an age of a person? 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:00.720 Well, if it does those things, then it can be abused. 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.400 The idea is I understand where people get afraid, Brian. 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:05.599 We're afraid of new things. 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:08.000 We're afraid of things that are faster and smarter than we are. 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:10.640 And then we always think of the worst-case scenario. 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.519 We don't sit around and go, oh, that'll be great for saving lives. 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:19.519 We sit around and go, that son of a bitch is going to know who's driving that car, and that's ripe for abuse. 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.119 But but I must add, that abuse has been around forever. 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.240 Coppers have always used that to stalk people. 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:39.039 Anyone that with the with a flock camera now is no different than guys when I was on the road that followed people home, got their plate, ran the all vehicles registered to to try to get a girl's name or a boy's name to contact later. 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:40.079 And that's bullshit. 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:41.759 So that's that's a worry. 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:43.599 That's a realistic worry. 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:23.200 Right. 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:30.960 And we'll I'll get into we'll let's get into kind of some of the the the yeah, the of course the there's it's a dual-use technology, right? 00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:32.559 You can use it for good or for bad. 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:35.680 Um and there's different, you know, civil liberties around it. 00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:37.200 We'll get we'll get into that next. 00:25:37.360 --> 00:25:39.440 But I want to kind of talk more. 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:43.759 You give let's let's kind of finish thought on on this about what this thing's actually know. 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:55.039 So I guess the best way to ask would be at what point do we stop talking about what the machine observed and start talking about the explanatory story the human built around it? 00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:06.480 Because like when when I you know uh get a piece of information, you know, your interpretation of it is going to be different than my interpretation of it, even if we have similar roles and responsibilities, right? 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.000 Based on experience, based on knowledge, based on training, based on all these other things. 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:15.360 And and that is what I mean when I talk about you know this human technology interaction. 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.079 It's not just the user interface and how you do it. 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:20.640 It's like, no, what you do with the information is everything. 00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:30.160 Like information is you know, it has inherent value if used correctly, and you don't even necessarily know which information is the most valuable or which data points are. 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:33.519 So so No, that's a great, that's a much better question, Brian. 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:39.279 So, so I was still going under the Kamala Harris definition of AI when you first asked that. 00:26:39.360 --> 00:26:41.600 So let me tighten my shot group a little bit. 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:55.039 The the machine-generated whatever creates involuntary uh heuristic manipulation because heuristics are important to how we've been programmed in our genetic wiring to sense make, right? 00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.279 So it's like an availability heuristic. 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:02.559 External information is repeatedly presented, it's made readily available to our brain. 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:12.079 So the brain begins to irrationally weigh that or believe that pre-packaged information as more important than the true observed facts that are right in front of them on the ground. 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:16.640 So we start believing the machine, and that's a form of expectation bias. 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:25.279 What that means is people staring at those screens for a long time begin filtering out conflicting evidence and disproportionately, unevenly weighing. 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:32.160 And then when you're searching for the information, you only search for information that confirms the conclusion you've already been handed. 00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:33.440 Okay, well, what do we know? 00:27:33.600 --> 00:27:35.120 Well, we we've heard of that before. 00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:45.039 And and the idea is that anytime that we buy into unverified external inputs without checking tangible facts, artifacts, evidence, mistaken assumptions will occur. 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:46.079 They have to occur. 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.079 That's the round peg in the square hole. 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:54.559 That's going out and and uh enlisting confirmation bias as your ally, and that's never a good thing. 00:27:54.880 --> 00:28:09.680 Yeah, and you actually brought up some good examples that, you know, kind of like when you talk about availability heuristics and the way we we see things, it's like the, you know, you go out and buy a new car and then you're all excited, you got your new car and you're driving around, and what do you see everywhere? 00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:16.640 The same car as yours that's been you're like, well, I didn't, you know, and you're going like, hey, there was always that many Toyota cameras on the road. 00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:25.840 Like, you know, you you're just now noticing them because you have one and now it's insignificant to you, it's available to you, it's something you see more now. 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:33.680 And and I and like and you you kind of explain it there and what that means when now I'm interacting with this technology, it begins to tell me these things. 00:28:33.840 --> 00:28:34.960 Oh, wait, I was right. 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:36.720 I found those missing kids.

00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:42.640 So now there's now I just be start to this this system has this authority, right? 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.920 And I no longer question it and I no longer look at conflicting information that I otherwise would have before, right? 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:48.640 I mean, exactly. 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:52.240 So so that's just in and out builds, and then the longer I do that, the more reliant I become. 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:58.720 And then now you're two, three generations later, and we're all walking around with these cell phones, and not a single person can tell me how it works, right? 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:00.480 And we don't even use it as a phone anymore. 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:01.360 You know what I'm saying? 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:02.000 Like right. 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:19.680 So so it's uh yeah, so so that that's sort of the the the I I think that was a good, you know, this kind of first part of this episode, like talking about the technological, you know, the the issues with adopting technology and the use and the operally operation whatever, operationalizing how we actually use it. 00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:22.720 Way too early for that much bourbon, that's all I'm saying. 00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:26.000 So so Fenty, one quick one on that. 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:30.079 Listen, we don't adopt shit that we don't fully trust down to our core. 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:37.120 So when it came out with the technology of the automatic electronic defibrillators, the AEDs, right? 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:39.440 And I always say that term wrong and somebody will correct me. 00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:40.319 I don't give a shit. 00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:42.960 It's the box on the wall that jump starts the heart. 00:29:43.120 --> 00:29:43.440 Okay. 00:29:43.840 --> 00:29:45.360 I was a cop for a good long time. 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:51.600 And Brian, you've met and worked with a lot of great cops that have, you know, double digits already in their careers. 00:29:51.840 --> 00:29:56.480 Ask them how many times on the road they did CPR, and that CPR saved a life. 00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:57.360 I'm one of those. 00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:02.160 I did CPR probably 11 times a year, maybe nine to 15, right? 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:03.440 Never had a save. 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:03.680 Never. 00:30:03.840 --> 00:30:06.400 Heimlich saved a bunch, never with CPR. 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.880 Then all of a sudden the AED came out, and guess what? 00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:10.240 Now you're getting saves. 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:15.519 So even if you don't fully understand the technology, you're willing to embrace it because it saves a life. 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:17.440 You saw that immediate return. 00:30:17.600 --> 00:30:19.680 You didn't have to be a cardiologist, right? 00:30:19.840 --> 00:30:24.559 So those type of things are a lesser lift, even though that would be a high-tech tool, right? 00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:28.880 But but the idea is that

you buy into that because you see an immediate result. 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:35.680 We still haven't seen, uh law enforcement has, but we still haven't seen in our family, in our own life, an immediate result. 00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:42.319 They're out there, but remember, they posed the argument before they gave us potential evidence to go through. 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:44.240 They only gave us one side of the argument. 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:44.960 It was binary. 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:46.640 You're either for them or you're against them. 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:48.880 That's not how we should judge this technology. 00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:57.120 Well, that and that's a good uh that's kind of a good segue into what what some of the arguments for and against these technologies. 00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:09.840 So specifically the the the mass surveillance systems, as people refer to them as, which you can there's, I mean, my your your phone is a mass surveillance system, but your your your Wi-Fi at your house is. 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:20.319 But uh so what are let's talk about some of the arguments kind of against you know the these these systems, specifically the flock and the automatic license plate readers. 00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:25.039 Like one thing that immediately people talk about is civil liberties, right? 00:31:25.120 --> 00:31:29.920 So one of the most common criticisms is hey, this is an invasion of my privacy, my civil liberties. 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:37.840 And but you know, you and I have talked about that before, and you actually kind of were saying, well, that's actually one of the weakest arguments, or our weaker kind of form of the argument. 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.160 So explain why you why you think that. 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.880 Yeah, yeah, and and listen, folks, you can argue with Brian and I anytime you want. 00:31:45.120 --> 00:31:46.319 Come on, it's an open form. 00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:47.600 All you got to do is write. 00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:51.519 We'll put you on the next podcast if your argument's good enough, but don't send us crappy arguments. 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:55.200 And the crappy argument is, well, this is uh against my civil liberties. 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.079 Driving on public roads is highly regulated. 00:31:58.240 --> 00:31:58.640 Why? 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:02.240 Because driving on public roads is a privilege, not a right. 00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:09.759 You have to have a driver's license, you have to register your vehicle, you have to maintain insurance, you have to obey traffic laws because it's best for all of us. 00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:11.360 Those things are in writing. 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:12.720 Every state has them. 00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:14.000 There's federal guidelines. 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.960 Driving privileges can be suspended, they can be revoked. 00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:20.319 License plates and vehicles are openly visible on public roads. 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:23.920

There's no assumption of any sort of privacy. 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.319 And vehicles historically have always had much less protection than a person's own. 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:34.880 We can go back, Brian, to the earliest capers that have to do with cars back when prohibition was running, right? 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:35.840 And what did they say? 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.880 Vehicles are inherently movable, so there's got to be a different standard. 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:40.960 Exactly. 00:32:41.120 --> 00:32:45.759 So the so the idea is don't come at me with that argument because that argument is flawed. 00:32:45.840 --> 00:32:48.720 Now, if you come at me with other arguments, I'll listen to them. 00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:52.319 Like you said, one of the things that that I thought was very important, okay? 00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:05.440 If I'm using it to judge how many people are taking their kids to a certain restaurant or to a polling place or something else like that, okay, if that information is unregulated, hey, we might have a problem. 00:33:05.600 --> 00:33:06.880 But driving is not the thing. 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:11.920 When you drive, you give up certain freedoms to be able to drive on a public road. 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:27.920 So I I I understand that that part of that argument, and a lot of people already are in disco, but you can't, I mean, we're if you the on your if you're on private property and you want to do whatever you want in your vehicle and bounce around, you go for it. 00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:28.799 But that's just the thing. 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:29.279 It's not. 00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:31.120 There's public versus private. 00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:34.000 When you're in public, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in this. 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:39.200 I purposely run those stop signs in front of the Walmart in town, jump open. 00:33:39.360 --> 00:33:41.200 That's a young copper pulls me over. 00:33:41.360 --> 00:33:42.480 You get what I'm trying to say? 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:43.600 Private property. 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:44.640 I don't think those apply. 00:33:45.600 --> 00:33:47.840 I'll just hold up my ID and drive right by. 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:55.600 So no, but but I I think the difference with these systems now is it's not just a snapshot in time. 00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:57.200 It's not just right now. 00:33:57.360 --> 00:34:04.400 It's it's it's it's collecting and aggregating information over time and and it's storing it. 00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:06.559 And that can be searched and that can be brought up again. 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:16.159 And it's like that does, I would think, open up some certain, you know, you know, certainly maybe some fourth and fourteenth amendment issues about using that information about me. 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:16.880 I mean, right? 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:33.920 Because if I go now, I'm under investigation for something and you go, well, we have you, we traced you

back using these cameras when I wasn't committing a crime, I was just out in public, which I get it, because you could say, Oh, I'm gonna go to this store and watch, you know, a hundred hours of CCTV footage to see if they walk past. 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:34.799 I get that. 00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:39.199 But now you've built this historical thing and now you're gonna use that information. 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:45.519 So it's like I it's I think it's the use and how it's stored and there is it kind of changes that that what you initially said. 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:48.400 Yeah, so so folks, do your homework. 00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:49.599 Look up the Yorkshire Ripper. 00:34:49.760 --> 00:35:10.400 I'm not gonna give you all the details of the caper, but they watched roads for this guy's sled for a good long time, and they managed to make a great record of everybody coming in and leaving the area, and so that's how they got the tire impression, the vehicle type and make, and went to the Yorkshire Ripper's home, right? 00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:19.119 Now, Brian, they didn't not look at all vehicles, they didn't only look at the Yorkshire Ripper's vehicle. 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:25.199 What they had to do is they had to come from a larger number to a much smaller number, and that's what you're talking about. 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:36.159 So anytime that we go after data, we need a rid of mandamus, we need a form of a warrant that allows us to look for those things, absent everybody else. 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:40.400 Because if not, you're gonna start finding other things that you weren't looking for. 00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:45.280 That's why phone tap, and again, these laws are out there, they've been around forever. 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:53.760 If it's on a phone tap and you're listening in and the persons aren't talking about the caper that you want about the people, about the drug, you have to tune out. 00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:56.559 Okay, so so that's what we're talking about here. 00:35:56.720 --> 00:36:00.960 And and first of all, when in doubt, whip it out on warrants because they're easy to get. 00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:05.760 And if you have an interest in a specific topic, write it down as an affidavit. 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:09.360 Go to a judge, and the judge will swear to it, and then you can go after those records. 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:14.480 Even if the person says no, even if the company says no, you can go after those records. 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:17.119 But my thing is, what if it's warrantless? 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:18.240 What if it's not? 00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:29.760 Because when you put two people in a room with high tech, they start messing with it, they start screwing with it, and sooner or later they're going to come up with a way to circumvent logic and reason, right? 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:33.280 And and law sometimes and do something silly with it. 00:36:33.920 --> 00:37:05.760 Well, uh yeah, yes, I I get what you're saying, and I think that's the another the argument against you know, this well, you know, the police can use this, and we've seen all the different cases of like, you know, stalking an axe or doing this, and it's like, yes, that's that's always an issue with any technology, but even with any authority or anything, like I I feel like that's almost somewhat of a non-argument because there needs to be, I mean, that's an argument for governance and how you use it and how it's tracked, but like those things that's not new, right? 00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:10.320 I mean, people did you even brought that up like regulating AI is not new. 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:11.599 AI is new, right? 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:13.360 But regulations aren't. 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:14.559 So yeah, yeah. 00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:18.639 And and and and and misuse of that for whatever your purpose is is not new. 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:26.079 Like you even said, like, oh, I'm gonna use this and I'm gonna look up something about this person who is you know now dating my ex-wife and things like that. 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:32.000 Look, yeah yesterday there was a caper that I sent you where the copper's brother was gonna be in a lawsuit. 00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:37.280 So the copper looked up the information and gave it to his brother so he could go confront the person. 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:38.800 Okay, that's a misuse. 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.720 That's not the technology's fault. 00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:43.199 That's the human in the loop's fault, right? 00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:46.800 So we have to be aware of that anytime humans are paired with technology. 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:50.639 Yeah, and then that argument alone is like almost it, it's always there. 00:37:50.720 --> 00:37:54.480 And it's something that needs, like I said, there's comes with governance and safeguarding and how you do it. 00:37:54.559 --> 00:38:02.960 But like I mean, because of how connected everyone is technologically and how everyone is surveilled by if you have a phone, then a smartphone, you do. 00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:09.119 I mean, you can right now, even completely legally and completely open source. 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:26.079 If I get three locations around when I know where you've been, Greg, all right, he was at you know, this store here around this time, he was over here at this time, you were I can find you and I can find your phone number because just from ad data, from different things, like there's there's there's open source stuff that you can do now that isn't hard to do. 00:38:26.240 --> 00:38:30.559 So it's like that's a little bit less of a of an argument. 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:36.720 To me, it's always to me, the biggest argument, the strongest arguments involves mistakes, right? 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:40.639 So what happens, what happens is when the machine is wrong. 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.000 Yeah, so so look, that's a great talk about segues. 00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:45.280 That

would smooth, babe. 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:53.360 Look, if I write down the wrong plate number and testify and make the stop and do something, the defense attorney's gonna tear that up. 00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:55.519 But but what is the court gonna say? 00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:58.559 The court's gonna say, hey, the cop made a mistake, okay? 00:38:58.720 --> 00:39:05.280 Because a lot of times you're running and you misstate something about the person that you're chasing on foot or the vehicle or anything. 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.519 Court, case law, time and time again, says mistakes are made. 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:11.039 The tension is high. 00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:15.679 You know, you uh thought it was this guy, and then in fact, that's the person you apprehended. 00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:21.199 So the court goes really, really easy on humans that make mistakes in complex environments. 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:23.599 Not so, not so with technology. 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:36.320 So if an automated system can misread a plate or confuse a letter or a number or misidentify the state or misread an expiration sticker, all of those things are gonna go into a database and they're gonna be compared. 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:51.920 And now they associate the wrong database, and you come back as a member of the, you know, MS-13, you get what I'm trying to say, and it's a it's got not the the the plates not associated with stolen, it's associated with you violating parole. 00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:52.400 Okay. 00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:53.920 So what's the worst part? 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:58.800 That the machine made the mistake, or what's about to happen when those red and blues come on? 00:39:58.880 --> 00:39:59.840 There's my question. 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:01.599 That that's the biggest thing. 00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:13.920 And then because of all the you know, reasons we we we we talked about at the beginning is now I'm going, oh crap, this is a stolen vehicle, and it's it's need, you know, what it comes across as the alert. 00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:17.440 And then now I'm going, well, okay, that's a good stop. 00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:18.480 You know, I'm getting this. 00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.360 I mean, and then now that turns into a pursuit. 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:26.480 Now that turns into a shootout, now that turns into the car crash that kills a bunch of innocent people. 00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:36.000 And so I I, you know, someone's gonna say, well, those are two separate arguments, or it's like, well, but if it got it wrong, but now that guy's running for some other reason or something. 00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:52.720 That that's the thing, is like it was or or yeah, now this person's freaked out, they're getting pulled over, and everyone, you know, pulling them over thinks this is a stolen vehicle and this is what's going on, you're you're you're now you're not you're not looking for anything to disconfirm your belief right there. 00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:57.280 So now it's the guy's reaching for his license or his his wallet and you're lighting away. 00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:57.760 It's a gun. 00:40:57.920 --> 00:40:58.079 Yeah. 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:02.720 So so let's talk about that for just a second in the context of of comparison. 00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:12.240 So if you compare the rate of of uh mistakes from expectation to explanatory storyline, the machine doesn't have that. 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.280 So the machine is going on information and gives it to you. 00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:19.599 And now you think there's a parole violator, it's a gang member, he had a gun before. 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:20.720 Why wouldn't he have a gun now? 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:22.559 So you see how that loop is shortened. 00:41:22.720 --> 00:41:25.360 And so now you're coming up with only negative things, right? 00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:28.320 So now you have a pseudo-negative feedback loop. 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:31.119 I know it means something else, but catch where I'm going with this. 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:32.960 So now that's in your mind, right? 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.960 The thing is, ask every cop you know, Brian, you know thousands of them. 00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:42.480 Ask every cop you know if they've ever had a pursuit just because the person didn't have the license in their pocket. 00:41:42.720 --> 00:41:48.559 Did a person flee at a high speed and blow intersections and everything just because they they were afraid to stop? 00:41:48.720 --> 00:41:49.840 So that happens, okay? 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:51.760 So that's an extreme, but it happens. 00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:56.240 So now the person hits the the gas pedal and is fleeing from you. 00:41:56.800 --> 00:42:01.440 With your information loop, it only confirms that this is a dangerous felon. 00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:04.480 And now you're TVIing and shooting and doing all those other things. 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:09.199 So the human expectation to explanatory storyline to prediction is flawed, right? 00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:15.280 So if we get that, that's going to create a very, very, very dangerous outcome that's at the end of it. 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:17.679 And you wonder, well, how many times has that happened? 00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:26.320 Anytime that you get a false thing with a name, you know, where a name hits close and it's been around forever, and they run them on a computer and you go, oh, is that this person? 00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:30.079 And now you're thinking the person in front of you has got all these felony warrants, and it's not. 00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:32.240 It's the softball coach for the local team. 00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:36.159 That's ripe with danger because you're at the precipice of a decision. 00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:40.559 And that decision and action, okay, is shortened because you're afraid. 00:42:40.720 --> 00:42:43.039 And you're saying, Well, I'm not afraid, it's just my job. 00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:43.840

You're afraid. 00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:49.039 You're sphincter titans because you're not sure what this person is going to do to protect their freedom. 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:51.920 Anytime you get a warrant, that means the person didn't comply. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:53.840 So why are they going to comply with you? 00:42:54.000 --> 00:43:03.039 And so the machine making a tactical error can lead to a catastrophic error of sense making on the ground. 00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:05.199 And I think that's exactly what you're describing. 00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:14.720 Yeah, it it sort of hijacks our, you know, this this decision-making cycle that all humans do, whether that's an extremist or not, right? 00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:16.559 I see some, hmm, that's interesting. 00:43:16.720 --> 00:43:23.679 Oh, oh, they have, you know, their vehicles not registered, or there's a broken taillight, or there's this. 00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:25.599 Okay, well, I can pull them over for that. 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.320 There's a violation, I have reasonable suspicion, whatever I call. 00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:30.320 And then now I'm talking to the person, okay. 00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:32.559 Now I'm this is this is confirming what I'm seeing. 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:33.599 I'm not seeing anything else. 00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:34.800 Now I have probable cause. 00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:36.720 Now I search the vehicle, now I find the dope. 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:44.800 Like that, that's the normal process of updating your hypothesis, creating an explanatory storyline, looking at most likely most dangerous course of action. 00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:50.720 And and what these, you know, especially the these Fox systems do, it goes right to decision. 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:52.880 It's like, oh, it's a stolen vehicle. 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:53.840 I need to do this. 00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:57.679 But I mean, and this is insane to me. 00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:10.000 But the LAPD went back and they studied, they went through their stuff, and they said 32% of stolen vehicle alerts examined in their review were false alerts. 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:11.119 So a third. 00:44:12.240 --> 00:44:14.159 Not not not 3.2%. 00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:15.119 Yeah. 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:16.320 32%. 00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:20.559 So so that's like just a recipe for disaster. 00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:22.000 I mean, you think about that. 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:23.679 But how much of a recipe? 00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:31.280 So, so let me ask you this from a military context, and and I'll give you an answer in a police context because I saw it firsthand over and over. 00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:39.840 So a non attribution, traffic stop, the guy on the passenger side of the traffic stop, definitely high stakes traffic stop, should have been a Fell and he stopped. 00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:44.880 And the guy on the passenger side, the copper that's watching the passengers, draws his revolver. 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:48.559 When

he draws his revolver, he cranks off around between his own feet. 00:44:48.720 --> 00:44:50.320 Thank God he didn't hurt himself. 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:56.079 That bullet skipped under the vehicle and hit the driver contact officer. 00:44:56.240 --> 00:44:56.559 Okay. 00:44:57.039 --> 00:44:58.000 So he's hit. 00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:00.240 Thank God it was in his vest and doesn't kill him. 00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:03.119 What do you think happened next when there was shots on that track? 00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:03.599 Yeah. 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:04.079 Okay. 00:45:04.240 --> 00:45:04.639 No, no. 00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:06.480 Answer that in military contact. 00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:07.199 Oh no. 00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:09.119 I don't know if I can. 00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:15.840 Not that you witness personally, but you've heard stories of negligent or accidental discharges. 00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:17.920 And what does everybody else in that patrol do, man? 00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:24.559 Oh, to the point that I've heard hey, everyone fire a few rounds because I I just launched one off on accident. 00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:28.639 It's another extreme, but that's hilarious. 00:45:28.720 --> 00:45:29.920 That's briefly concreted. 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:32.639 I just launched a 40 millimeter grenade. 00:45:32.720 --> 00:45:34.559 Uh everyone fire some right. 00:45:34.720 --> 00:45:36.159 Mine might help me up here. 00:45:36.240 --> 00:45:40.159 And so you got the squad leader firing the tracers toward where you're round. 00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:40.400 Yeah. 00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:44.480 I've I've I've heard the the comment, hey, where are you guys shooting at? 00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:45.360 We're suppressing. 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:46.320 Suppressing what? 00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:47.280 The north. 00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:49.679 Just the general direction of the north. 00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:50.800 Like uh, okay. 00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:58.079 But the idea there is, okay, that's a low-tech thing that can happen when a low-tech accident occurs. 00:45:58.320 --> 00:45:58.960 A mistake. 00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:00.159 It was a mistake. 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:01.840 It wasn't intentional, right? 00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.039 There was no intent. 00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:10.559 So the machine doesn't establish intent, but we take it that intent is present because it gives us those big words. 00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:12.079 And that's not fair. 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:34.960 Well, we it it not only cannot tell us intent, but it it may it's going to, like we talked about, this kind of decision, you know, loop of of what how you process information on the scene and what you're talking about, it it affects it so much that it it almost makes it seem, it gives you this false sense of, oh, I I now arrived at this conclusion, his intent must be that. 00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:45.760 And it's like, well, wait a minute, like you're you just jump three steps ahead in in the game here based on what you think is you know accurate information, but you never compare. 00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:46.720 There was no comparison. 00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:53.599 So you didn't say that you didn't you you don't say, okay, if this is a stolen vehicle, what else should I likely see? 00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:55.599 What should I expect when I go up there? 00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:56.720 Like we're already thinking that. 00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:59.360 And so it hijacks that sort of decision-making process. 00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:05.119 So you're farther, you're you're you're you're influencing the outcome more than you recognize. 00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:06.159 That's what these things do. 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:11.840 They influence the outcome of these situations and therefore the second, third order effects, but yet they're not responsible for them. 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:13.599 And then you know, you like you can't. 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.679 Or the consequences of them right now. 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:17.199 You see what I'm trying to say? 00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:21.440 So consequence dictates that certain things get better. 00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:30.000 Like, for example, if you used a false search warrant, the fruit of the poisonous tree, make sure that none of the information gathered from that is going to be valid. 00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:32.159 It spanks you until you learn. 00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:32.639 Okay? 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:34.400 The current system doesn't do that. 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:36.559 Clearly, it didn't do that in LAPD. 00:47:36.720 --> 00:47:37.760 You get what I'm trying to say? 00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:39.519 For a third of the mistakes. 00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:41.599 And and there's a there's a term for that. 00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:54.559 And again, I hate to you know bag our own book, but listen, if you read, if you do a little bit of studying on anything that's related to human behavior, entropy is such an important indication. 00:47:54.720 --> 00:48:06.639 So closed system entropic failure is a tactical decision loop like Boyd's that relies on an outdated or externally distorted mental model, and then it converts an open feedback loop into a closed system. 00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:09.440 That's why I'm always railing against the OODA loop. 00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:11.440 And I keep hearing it every day on LinkedIn. 00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:14.639 This will make you better, this will make your cops better, this will make your business better. 00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:16.159 No, it's a failure. 00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:18.480 And not for Boyd, not for what he used it for. 00:48:18.720 --> 00:48:22.800 Not for what he for your misapplication because you're not a fighter pilot. 00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:24.480 You weren't in the situation he was. 00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:25.840 It has to constantly update. 00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:35.440 So a decision-making system that fails to continuously update its mental models against the actual ground

truth is gonna degrade and it's gonna degrade into disorder and make critical errors. 00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:36.480 Simple entropy. 00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:37.440 That happens all the time. 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:42.960 So it unintentionally forces and reinforces reactive rather than proactive. 00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:50.240 So instead of operating left of bang, what we're doing is we're making packaged template matches instead of prototypical matches. 00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:51.119 And what does that put us? 00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:52.159 It puts us on the X. 00:48:52.240 --> 00:48:53.199 Now we're at Bang. 00:48:53.360 --> 00:49:00.000 And so the perceived crisis is already in progress when you go with an ALPR or a flock. 00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:02.000 And that doesn't give us time. 00:49:02.240 --> 00:49:03.920 That doesn't give us flash to bang. 00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:08.079 That doesn't give you and your parents sitting at the dinner table talking about the news. 00:49:08.240 --> 00:49:09.119 Remember those days? 00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:09.519 Okay. 00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:19.119 We don't have that now because the information is so shortened that we don't put reasoning, we don't put decision making at the end of sense making and problem solving. 00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:20.320 We make it first. 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:23.119 Here, here's your decision, go enforce this. 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:23.760 It's not right. 00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:30.559 Yeah, because the, I mean, the greater, the greater the consequence of being wrong, the more important that corroboration becomes, right? 00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:42.800 I have to consider like the the these are life, these these are potentially always, you know, life-ending consequences, or you know, that there's there's life and death hanging the balance of these things. 00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:55.440 And I I I don't think that's you know, we don't fully take into account the second third order effects and how this changes in the moment over time, generationally, what does that mean? 00:49:55.679 --> 00:50:02.400 And so, you know, the in the the big the big argument with these with the floxists and is that you know it's a it's a surveillance problem. 00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:13.440 And and you know, I am the you you look, I've I I can I get it from from both sides of this where you know I understand the argument like, well, if you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have to worry about it. 00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:16.639 That yes, that's I I technically agree with that. 00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:21.440 However, we have a fucking constitution and a bill of rights, and that that's what makes this so hard. 00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:31.760 That's what makes our society so complex and wonderful and amazing, and and have to have these discussions because it's like, well, yeah, but there's also I I I have I have my own work. 00:50:32.079 --> 00:50:44.639 This is built on our whole society is built on the concept of Greg, you are free to do whatever the hell you want so long as, so long as you are not impeding on the rights of others. 00:50:44.720 --> 00:50:46.400 That is the fundamental thing, right? 00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:51.440 But now we get into the surveillance network and and and and information is very valuable. 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.840 Hey, it's become more valuable now. 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:58.240 I mean, any data and information is extremely valuable, always has been. 00:50:58.400 --> 00:50:59.760 Information is power, right? 00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:06.320 And and who has the knowledge and who knows what, when, and that that's everything that drives the markets, that drives everything that we do. 00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:13.199 But I think that this criticism, you know, it's a point to that it creates this sort of surveillance network. 00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:25.039 And you know, you've pushed back on this, and and and I I I I I find your take interesting, and I want you to share that about like, you know, you said, well, your phone knows more about you. 00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:35.360 So like, you know, there's all these things, but so what's what's your argument, not really against that surveillance problem, but like it's it's almost like it's that's a non-argument to you. 00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:44.400 I don't want anybody to think that we're uh coming away from this, choosing a side against ALPR, against Flock, against surveillance, against technology. 00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:52.720 What we're saying is everything has to be regulated to a point so that there's less mistakes, so that you have a more pure signal. 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:54.720 The less noise, the better the signal. 00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:56.400 That's my argument right there. 00:51:56.639 --> 00:51:59.920 Because ALPR is uniquely invasive. 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.079 I hear that, I read that every day. 00:52:02.240 --> 00:52:03.280 It's overstated. 00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:13.760 Most people are already carrying, like you said, devices that continuously generate information about your location, your searches, your purchases, your communications, travel, interest, behavior. 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:19.039 The existence of technological surveillance is not unique, and specifically not to flock. 00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:24.079 And I would ask you now, as my dear friend, when I die, please clear my browsing history. 00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:28.079 The idea that was not a joke, by the way. 00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:29.840 Uh furries unite. 00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:39.679 So you know that I was on a flight recently to the East Coast, and so leaving Denver, we have a total mechanical failure, and we have to make an emergency landing in an airport. 00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:42.880 That airport wasn't ready for an emergency landing. 00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:48.000 The emergency services people, I don't want to get into any more detail than that, did an incredible job. 00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:50.159 We had to park a

long way away. 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:53.679 We had to take the old style ramp onto the tarmac. 00:52:53.920 --> 00:52:55.920 Uh, we had to have buses that took us in. 00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:58.400 And they handled that part of the emergency very well. 00:52:58.559 --> 00:52:59.840 You know who didn't handle it? 00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:00.720 The people. 00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:02.480 Well, what about my bag? 00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:04.400 Is my bag going to get transferred? 00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:05.679 What about my next flight? 00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:07.039 What do you mean you don't have a flight? 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:14.559 What do you mean you have so the idea is that what happens is we've become so reliant on it, we we we have to fish or cut bait. 00:53:14.720 --> 00:53:25.119 You can't say, I want you to know about my travel reservations in my GPS so I can look it up immediately and then get indignant when GPS shows you a road and it's a roaring river. 00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:26.320 You see what I'm saying? 00:53:26.400 --> 00:53:28.400 You can't there's a balance there. 00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:30.480 So is this really a surveillance problem? 00:53:30.720 --> 00:53:38.159 Brian, Gladys Kravitz on Bewitched was looking out her window all the time and going, Abna, look at what they're doing across the street. 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:39.599 That's a surveillance problem. 00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:42.880 We say if you see something, say something, that's a surveillance problem. 00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:46.159 Your government neighborhood listing your there you go. 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:48.240 So so how is that different? 00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:51.840 So my argument is that it's a uniquely invasive bullshit. 00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:53.360 It's happening all the time. 00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:58.240 It's what am I gonna do with that information and who gets to use that information? 00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:04.159 That if I was gonna make an argument, that becomes my top argument based on surveillance. 00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:16.480 Yeah, I I I see your point, and and that's always, and then you you know you of course are sort of caveating or saying it's about you know who has access to it and what are they using it for is is is a bigger, broader question. 00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:26.320 Because, you know, these I will the the the arguments for this technology is yeah, look, it's easier to f your car gets sold and it's easier to find it. 00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:29.519 Like it's your car that's so so then who's gonna start pushing for that? 00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:32.000 Well, insurance companies are gonna start pushing for that, right? 00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:34.800 Because that that that great, we got we're recovered your car. 00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:39.360 We don't have to, you know, pay you out now, so we save some money or we made more money. 00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:41.119 And then that's gonna create a whole thing behind. 00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:46.559 And then

you're gonna say, well, you know, these kids got kidnapped, and we get it, and and of course, you know, people want that, right? 00:54:46.639 --> 00:54:56.800 And we even have like, you know, I looked at this as like, well, the the the amber alert was almost this use of community with with an incredible technology when that stuff was invented. 00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:10.320 And I've I don't know if anyone, if you've ever had it, I've had it several times before where I'm in the area of something happened, and then you know, you get this you know, alert on your phone and it's on there, look for this vehicle, this is, and I'm like, oh shit, like let's let's catch some kidnappers. 00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:11.119 You know what I mean? 00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:16.800 Like that's really cool to me because you know, you could do the same thing about stolen vehicles or this. 00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:26.480 Like, you could how many Uber Lyft Amazon delivery drivers are just puffing around every city all the time, everywhere they go. 00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:27.280 Like, you know what I mean? 00:55:27.360 --> 00:55:28.559 You could make it make it a game. 00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:33.039 Hey, yep, you know, a hundred bucks if you lead to the arrest and fine of this, this, this vehicle. 00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:45.760 Or so I mean, what I'm saying is that like you, like you said, it's not we'll we're we already we're already part of the the surveillance state, meaning you personally, you know, humans are that's how we are. 00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:46.639 We want to go, what's going on? 00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:48.079 What's a neighbor over there doing? 00:55:48.159 --> 00:55:50.480 Oh, why why do you think social media works so well? 00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:55.360 It's because it's you know, how many people do you know just never post anything online, but they're always online? 00:55:55.519 --> 00:56:01.039 It's like it's like you're not interacting here, you're literally just surveilling everyone. 00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:03.920 You're a stalker, and and and and that's well, that's part of what it is. 00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:07.599 And well, it's so I but this is where it comes to. 00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:16.320 We we brought up earlier, it's this is it's this it's an oversight issue, it's a governance issue, it's who gets to use the information and why do they do that? 00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:18.720 And that's what concerns me. 00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:29.840 And that's why even like now I think there's they're you know, uh due to recent events, Flock had to come out and say, well, we now delete information after a week and no longer 30 days. 00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:46.079 And then you had to you already had investigators going, like, well, wait a minute, like, hey, this is we're really helping me out on these cases because I get to go back into that historical data and I can build the timeline of this person that can show they're the likely person who killed someone or robbed this

place or did that. 00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:54.720 So it's like there's always a balance in our society between you know civil liberties and freedom, and you know, then then being safe. 00:56:54.880 --> 00:57:03.119 So safety and security is always uh in sort of this this this balance of of personal freedom and civil liberty. 00:57:03.280 --> 00:57:08.720 So like that that's that's in any free society that we have, unless you want to live in a dictatorship, you know what I mean? 00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:10.800 Like that this is how it's always going to be. 00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:17.840 And so I think looking at the important parts of the argument about like, well, it's not just, oh, this thing does this, let's adopt it and use it. 00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:19.840 It's like, well, hang on here. 00:57:20.079 --> 00:57:22.159 Well, what how are we implementing this? 00:57:22.240 --> 00:57:23.199 How are we governing this? 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:25.360 Who has access to this information, right? 00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:28.559 What is the specific use cases that it's going to be used for? 00:57:28.720 --> 00:57:41.519 And I actually think, you know, and in this, this I it's it's a that's an argument against a short, you know, the the the business model maybe of of one of these companies that well, we just want everyone to buy it and start using it. 00:57:41.599 --> 00:57:45.039 It's like, yeah, but look what happens when you don't do that correctly. 00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:46.559 Now people are cutting them down. 00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:50.240 Now people now people are going to their town hall going, like, hey, get this shit out of here. 00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:51.119 We don't want it here. 00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:53.119 You spend our tax dollars on it no more. 00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:54.960 What are elected officials eventually going to say? 00:57:55.039 --> 00:57:56.159 Like, okay, you know what I mean? 00:57:56.240 --> 00:57:56.720 So you're done. 00:57:56.800 --> 00:58:05.519 So what I'm saying is like, if you build in that governance, you build in that reliability and you get you get that sort of community adoption where they go, yeah, this is a good thing. 00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:07.920 Over the long run, it it does get better. 00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:08.960 It is a better thing. 00:58:09.039 --> 00:58:13.039 You don't have to just like every tech thing, oh, just ship it and we'll we'll fix it on version two. 00:58:13.280 --> 00:58:17.280 It's like, no, like this is people's fucking lives, and it's it has to do with our civil liberties. 00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:19.280 And that's my biggest argument against this stuff. 00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:21.280 It's like you didn't plan any of this out. 00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:26.559 You adopted it, you took it on, you listened to what some asshole from fucking Silicon Valley said, and you know what? 00:58:26.639 --> 00:58:27.280 You bought it. 00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:30.960 And and and now you're now you let the genie out. 00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:32.079 Now what do we do? 00:58:32.240 --> 00:58:32.559 Right? 00:58:32.720 --> 00:58:34.000 I I mean, think about that. 00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:36.240 So let me let me throw this at you. 00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:47.599 If you're listening to the sound of our voices and you own a corporation and you got a couple of bucks, get yourself flock and a P L R and put it outside your business and put it outside in your parking lot. 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:51.119 That's going to save you a lot of damage and trauma later on. 00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:51.679 One. 00:58:51.920 --> 00:59:07.920 Part two, I would say that if you work in the security industry, that you should be thinking about having a, you know how they have the remote speed reading things to show you you're going this fast, and they roll them around on tires. 00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:15.199 Get one of them that does an APLR style flock and have it at a venue because information is great. 00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:20.720 Those data points are going to compare and help you exclude bad people from the event that's coming up. 00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:21.679 That's an argument. 00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:22.880 Why do I make that argument? 00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:27.280 I make that argument because I I would interrogate you guys that are listening. 00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:30.960 I know it arrests and what interrogation means, but I would. 00:59:31.039 --> 00:59:34.320 And I would interrogate you on the medical industrial complex. 00:59:34.639 --> 00:59:37.920 Does the medical industrial complex want to cure you? 00:59:38.159 --> 00:59:41.920 Clearly not, because if they cure you, you're not coming back and spending money. 00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:43.920 So they want to give you enough drugs to do what? 00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:46.079 To keep you alive for a longer time. 00:59:46.240 --> 00:59:50.480 That's the problem with industry regulating their own ideas that they came out with. 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:54.800 And I'll give you an example of that with the DNA, shit in a box, send it in, find out where. 00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:56.000 Okay. 00:59:56.559 --> 01:00:00.639 Greg, uh, I think they I don't I think you're just supposed to give blood. 01:00:00.720 --> 01:00:02.639 I don't think you're supposed to poop in the box, Greg. 01:00:02.960 --> 01:00:05.280 My my idea is I did the blood, urine, semen. 01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:06.159 Yeah, give it all. 01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:11.360 It's like every hotel room I stay in. 01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:12.400 Exactly. 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:13.440 That's your pillowcase. 01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:18.639 But the idea is that look, when that poop in the box came out and to tell you about, hey, you could do this. 01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:20.000 It's a moneymaker, right? 01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:22.639 But people fell for that scam and still are. 01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:27.039 The idea, however, is that some savvy cop somewhere goes, you know what? 01:00:27.199 -->

01:00:37.519 If I had access to that family DNA database, I could look people up and get into the family and start restricting or you know, deleting people and come up with the person. 01:00:37.679 --> 01:00:46.240 So to me, every technology has the ability to be abused or to be used, like you said at the very beginning, for good or evil. 01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:47.519 So you know what scares me? 01:00:48.159 --> 01:00:53.920 Okay, can another jurisdiction or federal agency read my ALPR or or my flock feed? 01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:55.360 Is a warrant required? 01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:55.920 Okay. 01:00:56.240 --> 01:00:58.480 Do they have to have a writ to take a look at it? 01:00:58.720 --> 01:01:01.039 You said it already, how long information is stored. 01:01:01.199 --> 01:01:03.119 But is 30 days good enough? 01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:04.079 Uh, should it be one? 01:01:04.320 --> 01:01:05.360 Should it be 24 hours? 01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:07.920 Should it be immediate, like a TSA camera? 01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:12.000 Can the borrowed recorded information cross state lines without a warrant? 01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:13.599 What searches are logged? 01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:15.840 Who routinely audits those logs? 01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:19.119 When you think about that, what happens when someone abuses it? 01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:21.920 Is it internal discipline or a crime with consequences? 01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:23.280 Most people don't know this. 01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:29.280 If you violate a policy, you might get fired from your business, but it doesn't mean you're violating a law. 01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:32.079 So you can keep go on offending other places. 01:01:32.240 --> 01:01:33.039 You get where I'm going? 01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:35.039 And so all I'm saying is guardrails. 01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:37.280 I'm not saying be draconian about this shit. 01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:38.720 I'm saying it's gonna occur. 01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:40.880 You're gonna have to have it in 10 years. 01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:43.039 We're not even gonna have this as an argument anymore. 01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:44.000 It's gonna be automated. 01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:45.920 So get on a European flight, Brian. 01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:47.519 Uh, you've done this as recently as I have. 01:01:47.679 --> 01:01:49.119 You don't have to show your ticket anymore. 01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:51.360 You walk up, it scans you, and you're on. 01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:52.800 So, so what about that? 01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:54.480 Do we not want to fly anymore? 01:01:54.720 --> 01:01:57.039 So we have to accept certain things. 01:01:57.280 --> 01:02:01.920 We have to negotiate parts of our freedom to allow for safety. 01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:02.480 And the U.S. 01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:04.159 Supreme Court has always backed that. 01:02:04.240 --> 01:02:12.079 They've always backed the thing that, hey, this situation is quite different for safety and security, we'll allow you to go a little longer, a little further. 01:02:12.720 --> 01:02:24.720 And for, well, first of all, on the private sector side, if I were, yeah, at some of these companies or these big campuses, and like if I was providing some consulting about security, I would be like, you need to allow it. 01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:26.639 I would be, I would be like, I agree. 01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:32.320 If you're asking me for my opinion, I would say absolutely, because one, it's private property, so you can do what you want. 01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:40.720 And yes, you're gonna maybe there's some informed consent from your employees, but they're they they either say yes, we're okay with it, or they have to go get a different job. 01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:48.240 I mean, you don't really like you, you you do have a choice as that person, but but then so I I I think that's it that that's definitely different. 01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:53.039 And and so the use of it and and what you can do with these things, I think goes beyond. 01:02:53.119 --> 01:02:59.920 And even could well, it it's like your your uh the genealogy testing you just brought up with the poop in the box or whatever with the blood you give. 01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:16.880 Like now that testing is so good that they can tell, like, oh, here, so-and-so did their 23andMe and found out that's the that's the this person is the brother of that blood sample you found at the crime scene. 01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:19.199 Like, I mean it's that accurate, they can tell. 01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:20.720 It's absolutely insane. 01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:25.280 And I mean, again, maybe that could get pushed back in court, but like it's it's it's pretty it's pretty good. 01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:29.360 Which I pissed at my brother, he did that thing a while back, and I was like, but why do the hell did you do it? 01:03:29.440 --> 01:03:30.720 He's like, Well, I just wanted to find out all this stuff. 01:03:30.800 --> 01:03:36.880 I was like, Yeah, now if I get ramp, you know, jammed up for something, they start to if I want to commit a serious crime and escape. 01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:40.400 Yeah, I was like, dude, like you're gonna get me caught because you did that. 01:03:40.480 --> 01:03:47.440 So which they actually have caught, I believe they have caught some serial killers from that too, where someone You're exactly right. 01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:49.119 Many, many, many murders. 01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:59.760 Where they where someone was a cousin of someone and they they they their DNA hit, you know, on some crime scene, they went and investigated, oh, your cousin was, you know, was the one hacking these people up. 01:03:59.840 --> 01:04:05.519 But hopefully they're shit in a box in LA where they only have a one-third chance of catching you, though. 01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:08.480 Yeah, yeah, apparently. 01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:18.320 Well, this is a big thing with with any of this, and you know, the the uh you know, as these technologies increase, man, this

governance has to increase with it. 01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:26.800 I I think this is a general example of what the conversation is in the United States right now with all of these technologies and with AI and what they're doing and what it means. 01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:37.519 Like we haven't, you know, once again, the technology always moves faster than any policy or government can, and adoption, you know, it just because that's just how things are, that's how they've always been. 01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:44.079 You know, they're back when they first started putting radios in, like just AMFM radios in cars. 01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:49.199 There was a lot of people that were against that, saying, like, this is gonna be distracting, you can't do now. 01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:54.320 I will say this technically, those people were correct, right? 01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:57.119 Because I'm gonna look down, I'm gonna change the station. 01:04:57.199 --> 01:05:05.519 Now I got loud music playing, we know that's gonna like technically they're correct, but that seems right now, a hundred years later, you know, absolutely insane to think that. 01:05:05.599 --> 01:05:07.360 Like, oh, you thought a radio was bad. 01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:10.079 You know, so humans do adapt and it changes things. 01:05:10.320 --> 01:05:13.119 But but but look at the cars now. 01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:17.039 Look at the safety features, look at the cameras, look at the alerts, the beeps, the lanes assist, all that stuff. 01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:18.960 Like, what's self-driving that's happening? 01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:21.280 But we're it's getting us it's getting us dumber. 01:05:21.440 --> 01:05:26.800 No, it it we have to accept the fact that it it and realize that it is making us collectively dumber. 01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:30.559 What what what radio station does your self-driving car listen to? 01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:31.599 That's all I'm wondering. 01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:35.599 When you were saying that, I was thinking exactly that. 01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:38.400 Just a bunch of machine noises or something. 01:05:38.480 --> 01:05:39.280 I don't know. 01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:40.079 All right. 01:05:40.240 --> 01:05:48.400 Well, there's there's some some other incidents of this stuff too, um, that I think would make is a good Patreon. 01:05:48.559 --> 01:05:52.320 I know that that that that we can go in further for those folks who are on the Patreon. 01:05:52.400 --> 01:06:11.280 Um you know, there's the one about the uh what was that is it in a Waymo, the the uh driverless vehicle where someone had a gun in there and they called the police, and like, you know, that again, you're getting into like, okay, if that was a kid about to go shoot up a school, we would be like, this is the greatest thing ever, right? 01:06:11.679 --> 01:06:15.679 But hey, we're what about the Second Amendment? 01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:17.280 And what about well, you know what I mean? 01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:21.039 Like, what about my own privacy and rights and what I'm doing in this vehicle? 01:06:21.199 --> 01:06:24.240 So there's a lot we can get into some of these specific ones. 01:06:24.480 --> 01:06:26.240 I think we'll definitely cover that on Patreon. 01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:35.599 And then of course, anyone listening to, if you have one or you're curious, you can you can you can absolutely reach out to us and and and we'll cover it on there. 01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:45.519 But you you know, I I I This is again why we're constantly beating the drum about this human first model. 01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:47.440 Like, what does a human do? 01:06:47.599 --> 01:06:48.559 What do they need? 01:06:48.720 --> 01:06:51.440 What's going to make their job easier in a sense? 01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:53.599 And then what would that look like? 01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:55.360 Second and third order effects. 01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:59.519 Because it's like, you know, any technology, man, what did it actually tell me? 01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:02.240 I mean, what am I building around this? 01:07:02.320 --> 01:07:05.280 What am I taking this information and just starting to create a story out of? 01:07:05.360 --> 01:07:05.679 What am I? 01:07:05.840 --> 01:07:08.880 So I'm what I've because what you're doing is you're making a lot of assumptions, right? 01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:11.760 And did I take the time to corroborate any of that evidence? 01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:14.559 What does my action, is it going to justify it? 01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:15.920 You know, did I reassess? 01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:16.880 How proficient am I? 01:07:17.039 --> 01:07:36.000 There's there's just a lot that goes into these, you know, is is is the final, I guess, kind of question I would ask you, Greg, and ask our listeners as you're listening to this, in a sense, is like after all of these different issues, because each one of these we could have a that we brought up today, we could have an entire podcast on. 01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:40.240 But like what should we actually be worried about? 01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:44.320 Is it the camera, is it the system, is the database, is the algorithm, or is it us? 01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:46.240 Is it is it is it people? 01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:47.679 So I'll give you one. 01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:49.119 I'll give you a street one though. 01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:55.840 Folks, I I never intentionally try to insult your intelligence, it just happens naturally with me. 01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:57.119 So here's the idea. 01:07:57.360 --> 01:08:06.880 Years ago, LASIK surgery was one of those things that you might lose your vision, and now robots do it and it's outpatient, and you're back on the road in no time. 01:08:07.039 --> 01:08:07.280 Okay? 01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:14.400 Technology can be immediately and immensely valuable to society, and we have to go there. 01:08:14.559 --> 01:08:15.920 AI, we have to go there. 01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:16.880 We're not going back.

01:08:17.039 --> 01:08:18.159 Genie's out of the bottle. 01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:19.279 We have to do something about it. 01:08:19.439 --> 01:08:21.279 But LASIK surgery, okay? 01:08:21.519 --> 01:08:24.000 So let's talk about that for a minute now. 01:08:24.159 --> 01:08:26.639 We don't even think in the context of that now. 01:08:26.800 --> 01:08:37.519 The idea is that what we have to do is we have to make sure that we look at the technology, look at the benefits of it, and then embrace the change by saying, what are the safeguards? 01:08:37.599 --> 01:08:38.639 And what do I mean by that? 01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:41.840 When somebody was getting LASIK surgery, they got raped. 01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:46.960 When they went to the dentist to get a tooth pulled, that person took pictures of their vagina. 01:08:47.199 --> 01:08:48.000 That's humans. 01:08:48.159 --> 01:08:49.119 That's not the machine. 01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:52.639 The machine didn't conspire with AI to get you to drop trout. 01:08:52.960 --> 01:08:57.199 That was a human, and some humans are effed up and they're flawed. 01:08:57.279 --> 01:08:59.520 And that's the ones that we have to have filters for. 01:08:59.680 --> 01:09:01.279 We don't have to have filters for you. 01:09:01.439 --> 01:09:03.359 You're not the one that they're coming after for. 01:09:03.520 --> 01:09:09.920 We have to have filters for those people that would imbue devious intent on a technological advantage. 01:09:10.399 --> 01:09:14.720 I I would say that it's always a people issue. 01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:20.399 I I don't look at any of this, you know, it's the same thing where it's like, no, yeah, guns don't kill people. 01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:22.079 People with guns kill people. 01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:23.600 Drugs don't kill people. 01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:26.000 People doing drugs kills people, right? 01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:28.159 It's it's there's there's an interaction there. 01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:29.840 It's the same thing with all this AI shit. 01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:33.199 It's like, no, it takes a human to do these things. 01:09:33.279 --> 01:09:36.159 So so people are the problem, but people that means people are the solution. 01:09:36.319 --> 01:09:38.079 Like that this is the whole idea about gun first. 01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:42.159 It's you're not obsolete, you're you're the you're the main character in the story, right? 01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:49.039 And and you know, any change or things that need to be happened, it it's it's about the the person, not about the thing that you're using. 01:09:49.119 --> 01:09:51.279 It's how you use it, it's your intent. 01:09:51.439 --> 01:09:54.640 It's this anything can be a dual-use technology, right? 01:09:54.720 --> 01:09:56.480 Anything could be used for good or for evil. 01:09:56.640 --> 01:10:00.399 A hammer is just a hammer for building shit until I start bashing your head with it. 01:10:00.480 --> 01:10:01.520 Then it's now it's a weapon. 01:10:02.159 -->

01:10:05.039 It goes from tool to weapon because of the human interaction with it. 01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:18.960 And I think my my opinion is is that is that if we focus on the human interaction with the technology within the context, like that's the most important part because that's the one that we we haven't cracked that code. 01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:21.439 We're always gonna get better tech, we're always gonna have better ways to use it. 01:10:22.399 --> 01:10:26.399 And which means someone's always gonna come up with a better way to defeat it, an easier way to defeat it. 01:10:26.480 --> 01:10:30.079 I mean, just look at the war in Ukraine, how much it's changed over the last few years. 01:10:30.319 --> 01:10:34.480 So you see this rapid, rapid changes because humans adapt it. 01:10:34.560 --> 01:10:36.960 So I can I can predict that about human behavior. 01:10:37.119 --> 01:10:43.039 I can predict likely technological use, whether it's positive or not, based on the past behavior of human beings. 01:10:43.199 --> 01:10:54.159 And so if you just focus on that element, I think it makes it easier to understand and easier to see what the potential problems are, and then easier to kind of correct those in stride and and account for it in some way. 01:10:54.480 --> 01:10:56.560 Yeah, and and we're not oversimplifying this. 01:10:56.800 --> 01:10:59.920 This is a complex issue, multifaceted. 01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:05.920 The idea is, I think I would revel in your answer that human problems require human solutions. 01:11:06.079 --> 01:11:10.800 I I am at a loss now because I'm dehydrated, but it was either Philip K. 01:11:10.960 --> 01:11:12.159 Dick or Isaac Asimov. 01:11:12.319 --> 01:11:20.000 I'm I'm heavy on the Asimov or Robert Heinlein that wrote iRobot, and I think it was Asimov, and he came up with the three laws. 01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:21.920 Look up when that book was written. 01:11:22.079 --> 01:11:35.199 Look up how long ago that he predicted exactly what it is that we're talking about here, that you have to make sure that when you have an artificial intellect, that that intellect is always there to help, never there to hurt. 01:11:35.600 --> 01:11:54.399 And you they all a lot of the big thinkers too, uh uh uh, you know, especially the scientists, went back to, well, there is with anything, whether it's a new AI system, whatever, there are physical limitations because there are physics at play, and so you can only do so much. 01:11:54.480 --> 01:12:02.319 So if you start to solve those physical limitations, I would include a human being in that and account for those, then you can get a better system, then you can get it faster. 01:12:02.480 --> 01:12:04.480 So, you know, I great points. 01:12:04.800 --> 01:12:12.640 I think you know, technology uses C more, but but do not let it give you permission to think less is what I would what I would take away. 01:12:12.720 --> 01:12:14.239 I because it does. 01:12:14.560 --> 01:12:17.199 So any other any other final thoughts, Greg? 01:12:17.680 --> 01:12:20.880 No, I I I I am excited about Patreon. 01:12:21.039 --> 01:12:27.439 I would tell everybody if you haven't checked out Patreon, go to the website, pick up an episode or two, and you'll see why we're so excited about that. 01:12:27.680 --> 01:12:28.079 All right. 01:12:28.239 --> 01:12:30.880 Well, I appreciate everyone for for tuning in. 01:12:31.039 --> 01:12:31.840 Thank you so much. 01:12:31.920 --> 01:12:36.720 Again, you can check out the website and the podcast episode page on there to search for different topics and things in there. 01:12:36.880 --> 01:12:41.760 I know some of you folks kind of will reach out with questions about hey, remember you guys talked about what episode was that? 01:12:41.920 --> 01:12:42.880 You can look for it right now. 01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:43.680 It's free. 01:12:43.840 --> 01:12:46.480 So it's all right there, lots more on the Patreon. 01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:49.439 So I appreciate everyone for listening. 01:12:49.520 --> 01:12:52.399 If you made it this far, uh, you know, thank you so much. 01:12:52.720 --> 01:12:54.640 Feel free to reach out to us anytime. 01:12:54.720 --> 01:12:57.760 And don't forget that training changes behavior.