Loans, Free speech의 전체 녹취록

00:03:20.490 --> 00:03:22.189 let's kick off with the actual thing they've 00:03:22.189 --> 00:03:24.310 decided to do, which is, I'm not sure there's 00:03:24.310 --> 00:03:27.069 a better way of putting this, DK. Basically what 00:03:27.069 --> 00:03:29.270 they're doing is warning you that it's going 00:03:29.270 --> 00:03:32.340 to be unfair. Something like that. I mean, I 00:03:32.340 --> 00:03:35.080 think the actual warning is that they don't really 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:37.379 know quite how it's going to play out. And there's 00:03:37.379 --> 00:03:39.419 literally no way of knowing as an 18 year old 00:03:39.419 --> 00:03:41.740 entering university, how much you're going to 00:03:41.740 --> 00:03:45.500 end up paying under what terms offer, how long. 00:03:45.740 --> 00:03:49.599 Because in terms of a financial product, the 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.039 student loan system is completely weird. It is 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:54.479 unlike anything else anyone will ever interface 00:03:54.479 --> 00:04:00.099 with. The statements that we are presented with 00:04:00.099 --> 00:04:03.400 at the start struggle, I think, to explain what 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.000 is actually going on. I don't think there is 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:08.539 an easy way of explaining how student loans work. 00:04:08.939 --> 00:04:10.939 but the government are going to have a go. So 00:04:10.939 --> 00:04:13.060 that's nice, isn't it? It's called a loan. We 00:04:13.060 --> 00:04:16.000 all know it's more a tax than a loan. But if 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.019 you want to access higher education, you have 00:04:18.019 --> 00:04:20.800 got no choice unless your parents were sufficiently 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:23.040 wealthy to be putting several hundred pounds 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:25.060 a month away since the moment you were born on 00:04:25.060 --> 00:04:27.240 the assumption that you might go to university, 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.379 you are going to have to take out loans and they 00:04:30.379 --> 00:04:33.199 are going to have an impact on your financial 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:35.620 freedom once you get through the other side. 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:39.759 So it's all very well putting it up there. And 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:41.199 I mentioned Mike has just started university. 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:43.879 We've been through all this. It's quite a frightening 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:46.180 reading already. It's just going to be another 00:04:46.180 --> 00:04:48.639 line that goes, this is a debt and the terms 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.480 under which you make payback are going to change. 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.000 I think there were other things that they could 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.459 do in terms of communication. post -graduation 00:04:57.459 --> 00:04:59.459 so that you know the Russell Group trial before 00:04:59.459 --> 00:05:02.779 the pandemic that kind of different way of demonstrating 00:05:02.779 --> 00:05:04.860 how much you're contributing and kind of putting 00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:07.319 the outstanding balance at the end that even 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:10.079 that would be an improvement on just a line that 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:12.480 says well we can make this more unfair than it 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:16.000 already is at some point in the future. But I've 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:19.660 got a question for you Pam right so did you say 00:05:19.660 --> 00:05:21.579 your daughter you dropped your daughter off? 00:05:22.100 --> 00:05:25.959 Yeah. Right so imagine your daughter got given 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:28.720 a piece of paper and in really big letters, really 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.620 clearly, it said, you're about to take out a 00:05:31.620 --> 00:05:35.519 loan. By the way, the terms of the loan may well 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:38.860 change at some point when the economy hits the 00:05:38.860 --> 00:05:41.139 rocks. I mean, in what way is that going to make 00:05:41.139 --> 00:05:46.019 your daughter feel better? Doesn't that just 00:05:46.019 --> 00:05:48.939 mean that she's going to be furious before she's 00:05:48.939 --> 00:05:51.560 30 rather than when she's 30? Yeah, exactly. 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:54.629 You're going to be furious earlier. If you're 00:05:54.629 --> 00:05:56.350 looking for an apprenticeship, they're not that 00:05:56.350 --> 00:06:00.490 easy to come by. There's not that many post -18 00:06:00.490 --> 00:06:02.709 jobs that don't require some kind of further 00:06:02.709 --> 00:06:05.149 training. If you know what you want to do and 00:06:05.149 --> 00:06:07.509 it requires a degree or you're still figuring 00:06:07.509 --> 00:06:09.949 out what you want to do and you think maybe an 00:06:09.949 --> 00:06:11.949 extra three years of education might put me in 00:06:11.949 --> 00:06:15.449 a better place than I am with three A levels 00:06:15.449 --> 00:06:20.220 that are not directly vocational. then you haven't 00:06:20.220 --> 00:06:22.480 got a choice. You are still going to have to 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:25.240 take that loan out. Yeah. I mean, it's funny, 00:06:25.379 --> 00:06:27.740 isn't it? Because I think if you take it on its 00:06:27.740 --> 00:06:30.850 own terms, that whole... conversation in the 00:06:30.850 --> 00:06:32.790 select committee and the whole report really 00:06:32.790 --> 00:06:35.149 Mac is about is about this, you know, this idea 00:06:35.149 --> 00:06:37.810 that we need to, we need to empower the, you 00:06:37.810 --> 00:06:41.550 know, the choosing consumer. You've got literally 00:06:41.550 --> 00:06:43.069 no choice, have you? It's not, you've got no 00:06:43.069 --> 00:06:45.250 choice in fees. You haven't really got much choice 00:06:45.250 --> 00:06:49.029 of when you go. I mean, this is, and so really 00:06:49.029 --> 00:06:52.170 what we're saying to, you know, well over a million 00:06:52.170 --> 00:06:54.750 young people every year is not only do you have 00:06:54.750 --> 00:06:57.550

absolutely no choice in this, you can't predict 00:06:57.550 --> 00:07:00.610 how much it's going to cost. Me and Jimco, we 00:07:00.610 --> 00:07:02.930 often exchange random tweets that we see or random 00:07:02.930 --> 00:07:04.670 kind of like screenshots of various commentary 00:07:04.670 --> 00:07:06.970 online. And the one which keeps coming to mind 00:07:06.970 --> 00:07:08.910 is, you know, not that long ago when all the, 00:07:08.910 --> 00:07:10.730 you know, all the A -level students have been 00:07:10.730 --> 00:07:12.410 accepted for places, you know, I think it was 00:07:12.410 --> 00:07:14.410 like over 250 ,000 this year, it was a record 00:07:14.410 --> 00:07:16.310 number. And there was a load of discourse online, 00:07:16.389 --> 00:07:17.769 you know, people will have seen about like, you 00:07:17.769 --> 00:07:20.050 know, this is too many, what's going on? You 00:07:20.050 --> 00:07:21.810 know, wait until they get, you know, wait until 00:07:21.810 --> 00:07:23.050 they graduate and they realize there's no job 00:07:23.050 --> 00:07:24.829 market for them. And I saw some really interesting 00:07:24.829 --> 00:07:26.589 commentary from people that was like, do you 00:07:26.589 --> 00:07:29.120 know what, we know the debt is terrible. We know 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:30.540 that this isn't, you know, this is not good. 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:32.600 We don't actually need you to improve the guidance 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:34.300 because the last nine months have told us that 00:07:34.300 --> 00:07:37.459 if anybody's kind of rolling on TikTok for goodness 00:07:37.459 --> 00:07:39.699 sake. But you know, this person actually said, 00:07:39.699 --> 00:07:41.259 you know, we know the debt's terrible, but if 00:07:41.259 --> 00:07:43.740 you're an 18 year old right now, and you know, 00:07:43.819 --> 00:07:45.420 you're in an area where there aren't a lot of 00:07:45.420 --> 00:07:47.879 local jobs, you can't drive, you know, you can't, 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:50.060 you can't find a local job, degree apprentices 00:07:50.060 --> 00:07:51.839 or whatever like that aren't in reach to you. 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:54.500 Your only conventional route to adulthood is 00:07:54.500 --> 00:07:56.420 to sacrifice all that and get the loan and you 00:07:56.420 --> 00:07:58.959 know, either move out or you know, take on all 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:00.519 of this debt. And we know that, you know, from 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:02.040 the medicine side of things, it's still not enough. 00:08:02.339 --> 00:08:04.779 But that's really their only choice. And a lot 00:08:04.779 --> 00:08:06.459 of these kind of perspective students are kind 00:08:06.459 --> 00:08:08.920 of just accepting that as it as is and just moving 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:13.860 on. DK, you must have been following our Chancellor 00:08:13.860 --> 00:08:17.850 this week, prefacing the budget. I mean, you 00:08:17.850 --> 00:08:21.370 know, if we know one thing, we know that fixing 00:08:21.370 --> 00:08:25.689 the student loan system is extraordinarily expensive 00:08:25.689 --> 00:08:28.730 because of all the existing borrowers that have 00:08:28.730 --> 00:08:30.670 debt on the books. Now, you know, we could do 00:08:30.670 --> 00:08:32.570 a separate podcast on how that works, and it's 00:08:32.570 --> 00:08:35.590 probably another podcast for another day. But, 00:08:35.690 --> 00:08:37.850 you know, you only have to nudge the terms very, 00:08:37.850 --> 00:08:39.990 very slightly, and it costs billions in a year. 00:08:40.330 --> 00:08:42.850 And Healey hasn't got the money, has he? I mean, 00:08:42.990 --> 00:08:45.980 am I missing something? If you're looking for 00:08:45.980 --> 00:08:48.860 a large injection of funds into any part of higher 00:08:48.860 --> 00:08:50.899 education, you're going to be disappointed in 00:08:50.899 --> 00:08:54.039 the budget. The money is simply not there. I 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.899 think because of the way we deal with higher 00:08:56.899 --> 00:08:59.480 education fees and budget repayments in the national 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:03.500 accounts, it kind of looks worse than it is. 00:09:03.779 --> 00:09:06.379 It was a lovely piece on the post -18 project 00:09:06.379 --> 00:09:09.669 that John Blake did a while back. that said a 00:09:09.669 --> 00:09:12.909 lot of the reason that higher education looks 00:09:12.909 --> 00:09:17.990 so expensive is because of particular choices 00:09:17.990 --> 00:09:20.169 we've made in the way we think about it, the 00:09:20.169 --> 00:09:22.250 way we explain it, and the way it shows up in 00:09:22.250 --> 00:09:25.799 the national accounts. In recent weeks, I've 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:29.600 become absolutely fascinated by a treasury concept 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.000 called the discount rate, which John Healy has 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:36.159 decided to lower. So what that does is it makes 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:40.200 it look a bit cheaper to invest in things that 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:44.080 have got a long -term benefit. you're going to 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:47.320 build, I don't know, a large railway line between 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:51.019 London and Birmingham. Or maybe extend it even 00:09:51.019 --> 00:09:54.120 from Birmingham to Manchester. Yeah, that would 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:57.000 be quite nice, but we can tell when we get. That 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:00.940 now looks a bit cheaper because the spending's 00:10:00.940 --> 00:10:04.000 all at the front, but the benefits show up over 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:06.059 a long period of time. We're talking lifetimes, 00:10:06.139 --> 00:10:09.830 we're talking... Now, exactly the same thing 00:10:09.830 --> 00:10:13.870 is true of the state deciding to invest in having 00:10:13.870 --> 00:10:15.889 a graduate rather than not having a graduate. 00:10:16.509 --> 00:10:20.710 There is still, depending on which of the comments 00:10:20.710 --> 00:10:22.990 underneath wonky

articles that you decide to 00:10:22.990 --> 00:10:27.289 read, there is still a graduate premium. The 00:10:27.289 --> 00:10:29.610 work I've been doing with the British Academy 00:10:29.610 --> 00:10:31.929 suggests that that premium is not just a salary 00:10:31.929 --> 00:10:35.659 premium. It's all kinds of other economic benefits 00:10:35.659 --> 00:10:39.379 for society, for culture, and for our civic life. 00:10:40.139 --> 00:10:43.360 Now, if getting those benefits looks cheaper 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:45.860 because of a change to the discount rate, then 00:10:45.860 --> 00:10:49.059 it just makes me think that there are other ways 00:10:49.059 --> 00:10:52.389 we could look at the loan system. to make it 00:10:52.389 --> 00:10:55.870 look less like this massive amount of money, 00:10:55.870 --> 00:10:58.110 all of which needs to be paid back in some way 00:10:58.110 --> 00:11:01.009 and more like an investment in the infrastructure 00:11:01.009 --> 00:11:03.429 of our country, which probably needs a couple 00:11:03.429 --> 00:11:05.309 of graduates knocking about the place to make 00:11:05.309 --> 00:11:07.429 stuff work. But can I ask you, DK, because you'll 00:11:07.429 --> 00:11:11.129 know, right? So once you've got all the linkages 00:11:11.129 --> 00:11:13.690 with administrative data like Leo and where people 00:11:13.690 --> 00:11:17.090 are and so on and so on, presumably you can not 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:19.350 prove because, you know, we're looking several 00:11:19.350 --> 00:11:21.970 years, several decades out, but you can You can 00:11:21.970 --> 00:11:25.389 start to look at, for example, that roughly 100k 00:11:25.389 --> 00:11:29.429 of extra franchise students, most of which got 00:11:29.429 --> 00:11:31.750 no A levels, most of which are mature students. 00:11:32.129 --> 00:11:34.230 On the one hand, they look like a widening participation 00:11:34.230 --> 00:11:37.169 success. On the other hand, you'd have to assume 00:11:37.169 --> 00:11:40.610 that someone somewhere has access to a bigger, 00:11:40.850 --> 00:11:44.200 more open data set that we've got. that is looking 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:45.899 at that and then doing what they've done over 00:11:45.899 --> 00:11:47.980 the past few years, which is say, we're getting 00:11:47.980 --> 00:11:50.059 less money in student loan repayments than we 00:11:50.059 --> 00:11:52.200 thought. And that causes the treasury then to 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:54.179 say, well, DFE, you got to either have fewer 00:11:54.179 --> 00:11:55.879 students or we're going to make student loan 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:58.860 terms worse. So, you know, I've got this horrible 00:11:58.860 --> 00:12:01.539 feeling that once you're sat on the data and 00:12:01.539 --> 00:12:05.360 you're staring at the data, DFE either Does the 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:07.259 unpalatable thing and says, all right, make loan 00:12:07.259 --> 00:12:09.120 terms worse or does the unpalatable thing and 00:12:09.120 -->

00:12:10.620 does student number controls? I mean, which, 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:13.559 where will it go? Do you think? I mean, as you 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:17.200 said, those are the two options and you can with 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.860 Leo and with SLC data, you can actually look 00:12:20.860 --> 00:12:25.159 at this. There is a team in the FE that is able 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:27.980 to see this. And even though all of the moves 00:12:27.980 --> 00:12:31.019 to actually better register the wild west end 00:12:31.019 --> 00:12:35.600 of franchise. provision have been ostensibly 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:37.899 driven reputationally that it just makes the 00:12:37.899 --> 00:12:40.879 system look bad, that we have all this actual 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:44.720 financial fraud going on. I would not be betting 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:48.000 against the fact that it is also linked to, okay, 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.159 there are graduates from certain universities 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.980 that are not likely to make repayments, that 00:12:53.980 --> 00:12:56.159 are not likely to pay off their whole loans, 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:58.679 and that is expensive. And if we're thinking 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:01.759 about student funding as a structural investment, 00:13:01.820 --> 00:13:04.320 which I would argue that we should be - Some 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.600 providers, some courses, some students are better 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.539 to invest in than others. Yeah. It would look 00:13:09.539 --> 00:13:11.740 like that. But on the other hand, I mean, we 00:13:11.740 --> 00:13:14.870 need to be fair here, it's not entirely impossible 00:13:14.870 --> 00:13:17.389 that there are benefits from that thing. I mean, 00:13:17.409 --> 00:13:21.669 even if you compare having a degree from somewhere 00:13:21.669 --> 00:13:24.610 with not having a degree most of the time, there 00:13:24.610 --> 00:13:27.649 is an earnings premium, most of the time there 00:13:27.649 --> 00:13:33.210 is a less tangible but equally important benefit 00:13:33.210 --> 00:13:37.559 for the graduate and wider society in that. They 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:39.820 have been exposed to different ideas, to different 00:13:39.820 --> 00:13:42.100 kinds of people, to different approaches, to 00:13:42.100 --> 00:13:45.139 some semblance of academic activity and critical 00:13:45.139 --> 00:13:47.559 thinking, which is probably good. It's quite 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:49.759 difficult if you just look at the salary data, 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.399 which is the temptation that Leo gives us. And 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:55.070 again, it's the underpinnings of the work. that 00:13:55.070 --> 00:13:56.830 the British Academy are looking at, which is 00:13:56.830 --> 00:13:58.990 like, okay, what actually are these benefits? 00:14:00.129 --> 00:14:03.330 And again, there is work happening in DfE that 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:07.169 is looking at what they call the overspill benefits, 00:14:07.429 --> 00:14:09.769 the other stuff that we get by having graduates. 00:14:10.350 --> 00:14:13.669 It is a difficult calculation to make, but I 00:14:13.669 --> 00:14:16.710 am absolutely certain there are people within 00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:20.389 the DfE that are. that are attempting to make 00:14:20.389 --> 00:14:22.990 these distinctions and are attempting to understand 00:14:22.990 --> 00:14:25.850 what the data can actually show us. This is a 00:14:25.850 --> 00:14:27.950 really interesting trade -off, I think, Pam. 00:14:29.490 --> 00:14:32.370 Imagine you're going to invest in something. 00:14:32.669 --> 00:14:34.429 You haven't got a lot of money, but you've decided 00:14:34.429 --> 00:14:40.870 to invest. Your choices are, I'll invest in either 00:14:40.870 --> 00:14:44.350 the existing students that we have in, say, back 00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:47.639 in 2019, by giving them a bit more maintenance 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:49.779 loans, they've got time to learn more skills 00:14:49.779 --> 00:14:51.960 and become even more economically productive, 00:14:52.139 --> 00:14:55.740 or I'll choke off their funding and instead I'll 00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:58.340 do what we've actually done since 2019 and massively 00:14:58.340 --> 00:15:01.659 expand franchising in sheep to teach business 00:15:01.659 --> 00:15:04.059 courses around the edges of cities. Like if you 00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:05.980 had to make that choice and you were actively 00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:08.120 making that choice, what choice would you make? 00:15:08.409 --> 00:15:10.409 I think that's quite a difficult choice to make. 00:15:10.990 --> 00:15:12.870 Instinctively, I would invest as soon as possible. 00:15:12.870 --> 00:15:18.279 I mean, I have put it in a particular way. That's 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:20.620 a very loaded question and my preference would 00:15:20.620 --> 00:15:23.620 be to have students that are already there. However, 00:15:23.779 --> 00:15:26.559 if you look at the developing skills profiles 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:29.759 of the country and where we might need people 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:32.259 in the future, it's not necessarily sensible 00:15:32.259 --> 00:15:35.980 to limit that spread of higher education because 00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:38.200 if you're moving into a high skilled economy, 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.700 which the country is theoretically trying to 00:15:40.700 --> 00:15:44.460 do, AI aside, then the more people who are able 00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:47.549 to access higher levels of learning. and not 00:15:47.549 --> 00:15:50.149 necessarily come out with a qualification business 00:15:50.149 --> 00:15:53.210 that is, but the ability to learn and develop 00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:55.070 throughout their careers, then you do want to 00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:57.220 be able to spread that a bit wider. I think that's 00:15:57.220 --> 00:16:00.259 a lot harder to put a kind of a pound sign against 00:16:00.259 --> 00:16:05.799 those. It's

the non -monetary benefits. But when 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:08.279 you say spread, Pam, right? Do you mean spread 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.980 geographically or spread just more people? Because 00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:14.220 the trouble is since 2019, it looks like pretty 00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:17.360 much all the, you know, the spreading has been 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:20.679 to London, Manchester, you know, around the edges 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.120 of cities doing, you know, business qualifications. 00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:25.440 Is that the spread we wanted if we wanted to, 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.919 do you know what I mean? It wasn't that long 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:28.620 ago that I was doing marathon training, and I 00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:30.019 think I was chatting to you, Jim, and I decided 00:16:30.019 --> 00:16:32.600 to run to a franchise provider on the edge of 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:34.559 my city. I live in the city centre. And I was 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:37.299 like, gee, let's see what this is, because the 00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:39.399 pictures online were all AI -generated, and I 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:41.519 wanted to actually find it. And I did find it, 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.350 and it was bleak. it still had no transport infrastructure 00:16:44.350 --> 00:16:46.450 near it there was no local community around it 00:16:46.450 --> 00:16:48.029 that would even you know it was basically an 00:16:48.029 --> 00:16:49.730 industrial estate and unless you wanted to go 00:16:49.730 --> 00:16:51.850 to DFS and you know curry's on your lunchtime 00:16:51.850 --> 00:16:54.110 like there's no there was nothing there that 00:16:54.110 --> 00:16:56.330 said you know this is this is um you know outreaching 00:16:56.330 --> 00:16:58.149 to a local community that can then upskill themselves 00:16:58.149 --> 00:16:59.669 because they're closer to that and they won't 00:16:59.669 --> 00:17:01.210 be able to get into the city centre and go to 00:17:01.210 --> 00:17:04.809 you know man met for example um it is the kind 00:17:04.809 --> 00:17:06.789 of like the principle and the and the idea of 00:17:06.789 --> 00:17:09.970 this and the vision you know isn't isn't not 00:17:09.970 --> 00:17:12.069 sound but the practice of it now is just become 00:17:12.069 --> 00:17:14.829 so, so dodgy, let's be honest, that it does kind 00:17:14.829 --> 00:17:17.750 of make my stomach go a bit funny. Yeah, absolutely. 00:17:18.009 --> 00:17:22.150 Yes. Yeah. I mean, you can always find someone 00:17:22.150 --> 00:17:25.700 that will benefit. in principle from higher education 00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:28.380 but if you haven't got lots of money the idea 00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:32.099 that you would just throw particularly when all 00:17:32.099 --> 00:17:35.279 the all the expansion there's been has appears 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.960 to be in the sort of provision that isn't delivering 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.380 the you know delivering the goods i mean

yeah 00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:42.519 that gets very tricky you've been keeping your 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:44.119 eye on this mac haven't you this week is that 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:46.700 yeah and any other news from lucy pail and on 00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:48.740 student loans i mean this thing today is quite 00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:50.700 interesting isn't it this rethink repayment with 00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:54.140 nus having a little demo outside I can't remember 00:17:54.140 --> 00:17:56.420 the last time NUS had a demo, other than the 00:17:56.420 --> 00:17:58.319 great demo of 2010, where my name was on the 00:17:58.319 --> 00:17:59.980 risk assessment. It's all right, there'll only 00:17:59.980 --> 00:18:02.480 be 2 ,000 students. A demo outside number 10 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:04.119 North, that's probably the first demo outside 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:05.779 number 10 North, isn't it? I think it will at 00:18:05.779 --> 00:18:07.519 least be the first student -based demo. Yeah, 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.220 absolutely. I mean, there are frustrations. I 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:13.200 think are really interesting because you know 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.220 we're getting to the point now where you know 00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:17.279 students and student activists that are campaigning 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.920 and you know rethink repayment is thinking mostly 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.500 about graduates because when we talk about the 00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:22.819 student loan debate really we're talking about 00:18:22.819 --> 00:18:24.960 plan two students but a lot of the student activists 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:26.819 which you know will be going to number 10 north 00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:29.119 um you know this afternoon or this morning they're 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:30.660 actually thinking about the wider picture so 00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:32.500 they're thinking about you know about plan five 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:34.359 students who are you know you know plan your 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:36.240 daughter will be a plan five student and you 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.119 know the terms of that repayment aren't much 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.299 better you know they're not they're slightly 00:18:40.269 --> 00:18:41.670 better but they're not much better it depends 00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:43.470 on what lens you look through and they're also 00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:44.809 thinking about the maintenance aspects of this 00:18:44.809 --> 00:18:46.470 and you know certainly when we'll talk about 00:18:46.470 --> 00:18:49.950 it later this morning students are going to university 00:18:49.950 --> 00:18:51.670 now knowing that they are going to probably be 00:18:51.670 --> 00:18:54.250 working one if not two jobs skipping a few meals 00:18:54.250 --> 00:18:56.450 and struggling and it's very very different to 00:18:56.450 --> 00:18:58.390 that beans on toast narrative that you know we 00:18:58.390 --> 00:19:00.589 fed we fed you know incoming students you know 00:19:00.589 --> 00:19:02.410 maybe 10 years ago it's going to be tough you're 00:19:02.410 --> 00:19:04.190 going to have to scrimp and save and no this 00:19:04.190 --> 00:19:06.170 is you know very much about survival and about 00:19:06.170 --> 00:19:07.789 kind of and to what extent you actually can have 00:19:07.789 --> 00:19:09.190 a decent time and to what extent you can be able 00:19:09.190 --> 00:19:11.119 to just go through that degree. So I think that's 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.140 a lot of what the discussion will be. Well, the 00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:15.240 discussion placards will be about today is, you 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:18.059 know, plan two students, plan two, sorry, holders. 00:19:18.380 --> 00:19:20.039 Absolutely. These are graduates we're talking 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:22.579 about and the conversation hasn't yet in the 00:19:22.579 --> 00:19:25.180 past nine months, really moved from plan two 00:19:25.180 --> 00:19:28.559 holders onto kind of current borrowers. Yeah, 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.500 that's true. Now while we're on this DK, the 00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:35.099 University of UK future jobs thing where there's 00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:37.420 this grand commitment to make sure that every 00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:40.160 student, you know, does some work. while they're 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.680 at university and the first thing whenever someone 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.500 proposes this locally the first thing I think 00:19:45.500 --> 00:19:48.019 is okay it's either in the credit system and 00:19:48.019 --> 00:19:50.460 it's unpaid which will take them out of the ability 00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:53.559 to earn money part -time In the labor market 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.019 or it's outside the credit system people are 00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:59.200 already scrapping for placements, you know It's 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:01.259 not like there's tons of businesses falling over 00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:03.519 themselves to offer placements and actually every 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.700 time every time a university has a push on this 00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:07.380 I always look at the other universities are having 00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:09.519 a push on this in the region and think this is 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.759 more of a fight over placements this is you know 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:16.430 when you combine all that It becomes really difficult, 00:20:16.430 --> 00:20:18.529 doesn't it, for students to both find the work, 00:20:18.769 --> 00:20:20.769 for it to be paid ideally, and for businesses 00:20:20.769 --> 00:20:24.930 to support it meaningfully. The thing with placements 00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:27.670 is they are really hard to get right across the 00:20:27.670 --> 00:20:31.309 system. I still remember trying to find a placement 00:20:31.309 --> 00:20:34.990 for my kid at school and it's really, really 00:20:34.990 --> 00:20:37.970 hard to do. There's not a lot of employers who 00:20:37.970

--> 00:20:40.200 will think... Tell you what, what I really fancy 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.559 doing is doing a little bit of teaching and instruction, 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.660 not getting any kind of payment for it whatsoever, 00:20:46.660 --> 00:20:49.259 and just helping out the school system. It's 00:20:49.259 --> 00:20:51.700 not what you do, especially if you're an SME, 00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:54.079 especially if you're a one person enterprise. 00:20:54.740 --> 00:20:57.019 There's not a lot of it out there. And we've 00:20:57.019 --> 00:20:59.279 seen this at schools, we've seen this with T 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.259 levels, which had been really slow to get off 00:21:01.259 --> 00:21:04.039 the ground precisely because it's really hard 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:06.119 to find placements. We see it at universities 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:08.119 as well. There's a number of universities that 00:21:08.329 --> 00:21:11.309 promote the idea that you will get a placement. 00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:13.869 I mean, years and years ago, the University of 00:21:13.869 --> 00:21:15.690 Bradford used to make the big thing about every 00:21:15.690 --> 00:21:18.069 student has a placement. There's been an announcement 00:21:18.069 --> 00:21:19.890 in Manchester. There's a couple of other places 00:21:19.890 --> 00:21:23.390 as well, but it is really, really hard to firstly 00:21:23.390 --> 00:21:26.309 get any placement at all. And secondly, even 00:21:26.309 --> 00:21:28.750 if you can do that, to get a meaningful placement 00:21:28.750 --> 00:21:32.009 that contributes to the graduate's learning and 00:21:32.009 --> 00:21:34.970 employability. I mean, the obvious answer, which 00:21:34.970 --> 00:21:38.480 is a case you've made many, many times on the 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.940 site is you know if students are doing all of 00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:43.940 this work in order to survive why not actually 00:21:43.940 --> 00:21:46.400 give them a measure of academic credit for it 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:48.099 and you know maybe you can have them reflecting 00:21:48.099 --> 00:21:52.019 on it or writing about it in some kind of a critical 00:21:52.019 --> 00:21:54.369 way to make it a little more academic but This 00:21:54.369 --> 00:21:57.710 does not feel like it is beyond the wit of man 00:21:57.710 --> 00:22:00.430 to organise something like that that reflects 00:22:00.430 --> 00:22:03.809 the work that students are already doing. There's 00:22:03.809 --> 00:22:07.009 actually quite a sophisticated set of systems 00:22:07.009 --> 00:22:10.710 in other countries about recognising the learning 00:22:10.710 --> 00:22:14.210 that people get from work. I'm not talking about 00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:16.869 giving people academic credit for pulling pints, 00:22:16.910 --> 00:22:18.849 but actually if they're a shift supervisor in 00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:22.420 spoons. and you know they're the deputy licensee 00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:25.759 and so on it's not immediately clear to me that 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.319 every student that's doing that needs all 360 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:31.980 credits to be in their academic subjects some 00:22:31.980 --> 00:22:34.299 of those credits you know are life -changing 00:22:34.299 --> 00:22:36.500 they're important we're saying last week via 00:22:36.500 --> 00:22:38.900 universities uk that they amount to learning 00:22:38.900 --> 00:22:41.460 why aren't we why aren't we recognizing that 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:44.740 as learning because it's suddenly it all starts 00:22:44.740 --> 00:22:46.829 to fit together in a way that kind of doesn't 00:22:46.829 --> 00:22:49.089 at the moment. I think any work -based learning 00:22:49.089 --> 00:22:51.769 that is where the agency is on the scene to find 00:22:51.769 --> 00:22:54.730 it, the biggest asterix for any, you know, for 00:22:54.730 --> 00:22:56.730 any university that's doing a big strategy on 00:22:56.730 --> 00:22:59.369 that is, you know, the access to them. I remember 00:22:59.369 --> 00:23:01.589 being at university and a friend on my course 00:23:01.589 --> 00:23:03.569 very casually was like, you know, my dad couldn't 00:23:03.569 --> 00:23:05.750 find us all place, all internships and placements. 00:23:05.750 --> 00:23:08.829 And I was like, I studied politics. My dad could 00:23:08.829 --> 00:23:10.490 absolutely, wouldn't even know what an internship 00:23:10.490 --> 00:23:12.970 is, no disrespect to John. But he wouldn't. So 00:23:12.970 --> 00:23:15.170 like, it's about access to those things as well. 00:23:15.390 --> 00:23:17.829 And, you know, it isn't just a fight right now 00:23:17.829 --> 00:23:19.690 because everyone's putting in applications for 00:23:19.690 --> 00:23:21.349 however many, you know, limited placements there 00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:23.089 are. It's about contacts. It's about inside the 00:23:23.089 --> 00:23:25.130 networks. And, you know, that probably isn't 00:23:25.130 --> 00:23:27.789 covered in universities' APP right now. But do 00:23:27.789 --> 00:23:29.190 you remember when we were in Portugal and we 00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:32.240 were at that... we were at that provider where 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.519 you know there was actually a moderately sophisticated 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:37.299 way of finding every student a placement wasn't 00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:39.019 there? Well in that, forgive me if I'm wrong 00:23:39.019 --> 00:23:41.180 Jim, that was where the university was really 00:23:41.180 --> 00:23:43.640 entangled with the local businesses and the local 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:45.279 economy to the point of which they were they 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:46.900 were constantly working a partnership. I'm not 00:23:46.900 --> 00:23:48.519 saying universities don't do that in the UK to 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:50.700 the same extent but they weren't as kind of as 00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:53.180 harmoniously entangled and you know the universities 00:23:53.180 -->

00:23:54.579 were there to deliver some of the skills for 00:23:54.579 --> 00:23:56.500 the local economy in a way in which we haven't 00:23:56.500 --> 00:23:59.019 kind of linked up I guess as sophisticatedly. 00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:01.180 really got there. Right. Thank you, everyone. 00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:03.019 Why don't we find out who's been blogging for 00:24:03.019 --> 00:24:07.799 us this week. Hi, my name is Sahil and I am the 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.319 Director of Accreditation at School of Management 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:13.480 University of Bath. This week on wonky my friend 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:16.299 Rashad Shabab, the Associate Dean for Education 00:24:16.299 --> 00:24:19.630 and Students at the University of Sussex. And 00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:22.849 I've been blogging about why program coherence 00:24:22.849 --> 00:24:25.769 should be everyone's responsibility and not just 00:24:25.769 --> 00:24:28.069 the program leader's job. Universities can have 00:24:28.069 --> 00:24:31.029 excellent individual modules, but students often 00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:34.369 experience their degree as a series of disconnected 00:24:34.369 --> 00:24:37.890 classes, assessments and expectations. They notice 00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:40.670 repeated content clashing approaches to things 00:24:40.670 --> 00:24:44.930 like Generative AI and deadlines all landing 00:24:44.930 --> 00:24:48.029 at once. The issue is not actually a lack of 00:24:48.029 --> 00:24:50.890 care from teaching staff. It's that university 00:24:50.890 --> 00:24:54.789 structures, quality processes and rewards tend 00:24:54.789 --> 00:24:57.710 to focus on modules in isolation rather than 00:24:57.710 --> 00:25:00.690 on how they fit together. Creating a coherent 00:25:00.690 --> 00:25:03.369 program takes ongoing conversation and shared 00:25:03.369 --> 00:25:06.660 ownership across teaching teams. If you really 00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:09.319 want students to experience a connected academic 00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:12.400 journey, we need to value collaborative curriculum 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.079 design as much as brilliant teaching in any single 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:24.059 module. Now, DK, just when we thought that free 00:25:24.059 --> 00:25:26.579 speech was starting to be something we didn't 00:25:26.579 --> 00:25:30.359 have to read 90 page OFS PDFs about, another 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.779 90 page OFS PDF has landed! Yeah, I mean, it's 00:25:33.779 --> 00:25:36.500 a source of an anxiety dream, really. This is 00:25:36.500 --> 00:25:38.180 never going to stop. There's always going to 00:25:38.180 --> 00:25:41.019 be 90 -page PDFs from the UFS about freedom of 00:25:41.019 --> 00:25:42.599 speech. They're always going to be hard to read 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.740 and intently irritating. And here we have another 00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:49.839 one. Now, this is the ostensibly sensible bit 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:52.319 of the Freedom of Speech Act, the bits dealing

00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:55.940 with... governing documents and governance arrangements, 00:25:56.019 --> 00:25:57.880 which is going to be new condition of registration 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:01.859 E11 and new condition registration E12, which 00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:04.839 covers the actual free speech duties, which are 00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:08.140 the bits where you have to not just support freedom 00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:10.500 of speech, but actively promote freedom of speech. 00:26:11.259 --> 00:26:13.900 So this is all going to come into force on the 00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:17.720 1st of April, 2027. This is quite tight for a 00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:21.580 consultation. You do have to wonder. exactly 00:26:21.580 --> 00:26:24.880 how much impact given the number of bits that 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:27.839 are completely out of bounds because they relate 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:29.960 to legal judgments or the actual layer of the 00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:32.259 law itself that are actually going to change 00:26:32.259 --> 00:26:36.019 as a result of responses. As a set of documents, 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:40.779 it shows the OFS walking a line very carefully 00:26:40.779 --> 00:26:45.000 between what it actually has to do and what it 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.279 actually has to set out and actually offering 00:26:47.549 --> 00:26:50.190 a kind of meaningful guidance and support to 00:26:50.190 --> 00:26:52.730 universities in doing these things against the 00:26:52.730 --> 00:26:56.170 kind of post Sussex no surprises thing in which 00:26:56.170 --> 00:26:59.109 everything has to be clear and straightforward 00:26:59.109 --> 00:27:02.250 and they don't dive in with a studs up until 00:27:02.250 --> 00:27:05.450 they've actually had a talk to the university 00:27:05.450 --> 00:27:10.920 in question first of all. So this is Another 00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:13.579 set of scaffolding which universities and particularly 00:27:13.579 --> 00:27:15.859 university boards are going to have to look at 00:27:15.859 --> 00:27:18.519 because it deals directly with the idea of a 00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:21.000 governing document and what's in the governing 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:24.279 documents and how this supports our otherwise 00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.200 freedom of speech. I've got some lovely examples 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:32.500 of this. Let's talk about the Randsen benefaction, 00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:35.400 which is a part of the regulations of the University 00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:38.359 of Oxford. There is a request that's been left 00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:41.539 to Oxford to provide a preacher to preach a sermon 00:27:41.539 --> 00:27:45.200 on church extension within the British Commonwealth. 00:27:45.380 --> 00:27:48.880 This has happened since 1847, so you'd have to 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:53.019 assume people know about it. Now, under the terms 00:27:53.019 --> 00:27:56.460 of the promotion of free speech regulation, this 00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:58.859

feels to me like if you're specifying what a 00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:01.599 preacher needs to talk about, you're implicitly 00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:03.579 specifying what they can't talk about. If they 00:28:03.579 --> 00:28:05.119 have to talk about the expansion of the Church 00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:08.210 of England, they cannot talk about what's been 00:28:08.210 --> 00:28:10.289 happening in the news that week or something 00:28:10.289 --> 00:28:13.329 like that. Is that a part of a governing document 00:28:13.329 --> 00:28:16.210 that restricts freedom of speech? Is that something 00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:18.470 that the RFS is going to go steaming in on? We 00:28:18.470 --> 00:28:22.390 don't actually know, and I'd love to hear from 00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:25.230 somebody from Oxford who can explain this to 00:28:25.230 --> 00:28:27.269 me. Are they going to have to change the terms 00:28:27.269 --> 00:28:29.849 of that bequest or not? Yes, we have a clip from 00:28:29.849 --> 00:28:34.519 someone from Oxford. No, we don't. Okay. You 00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:38.420 know, the other thing in here is I think a Rubicon 00:28:38.420 --> 00:28:41.559 has been crossed, you know, because when I was 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:43.779 reading it yesterday, so basically yesterday, 00:28:44.059 --> 00:28:47.539 DK was looking at the, you know, this big new 00:28:47.539 --> 00:28:50.700 dashboard that OFS has published. And so I was 00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:53.920 reading this yesterday and, you know, I was slowly 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:55.900 getting my head around, you know, the various 00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:58.859 potential contradictions and the and the potential 00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:00.539 kind of Kafka -esque, you know, what's a governing 00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:02.799 document? And then I got to the bit where it 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:04.859 said, where basically the promote GT. So, you 00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:07.059 know, the other thing this document does is it 00:29:07.059 --> 00:29:10.039 suggests, you know, it's got proposed guidance 00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:12.859 on what would count as promoting free speech, 00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:14.420 because there's two GTs, you know, the secure 00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:17.079 GT and the promote GT. And it's crossed a Rebicon 00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:21.140 because it gets into how you teach. I don't know 00:29:21.140 --> 00:29:22.819 if you've seen this right but there's one of 00:29:22.819 --> 00:29:25.539 the lines in there says it may depending on the 00:29:25.539 --> 00:29:27.579 circumstances be likely to assist providers and 00:29:27.579 --> 00:29:29.180 constituent institutions to meet their promote 00:29:29.180 --> 00:29:32.500 duty la la la la to have more student -led debate 00:29:32.500 --> 00:29:38.000 and discussion spaces to smaller class sizes 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.119 i .e. moderated seminars there's a line in here 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.140 that says make sure more junior audience members 00:29:44.140 --> 00:29:46.160 and participants are the first to comment after 00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:49.390 a talk There's a moment in here where it says, 00:29:49.450 --> 00:29:51.549 make sure people are sat around tables rather 00:29:51.549 --> 00:29:54.049 than lecture formats. And I'm like, okay, even 00:29:54.049 --> 00:29:57.150 if I set aside the idea that OFS is busy, you 00:29:57.150 --> 00:30:00.029 know, encouraging people to make savings reductions, 00:30:01.269 --> 00:30:04.049 a document that broadly tells people how to teach 00:30:04.049 --> 00:30:08.210 is a new level of finger wagging, isn't it? It 00:30:08.210 --> 00:30:12.470 did speak to me around the tension between that 00:30:12.470 --> 00:30:16.210 duty to have due regard to academic freedom and 00:30:16.210 --> 00:30:19.990 promote freedom of speech because they are limiting 00:30:19.990 --> 00:30:22.589 by some of this guidance. If it's taken literally, 00:30:22.849 --> 00:30:26.009 it could limit the freedom of an academic to 00:30:26.009 --> 00:30:28.930 deliver their teaching and the student's experience 00:30:28.930 --> 00:30:32.210 in a way that best fits. I think also practically, 00:30:32.490 --> 00:30:34.269 what we're going to do, we're going to lock down 00:30:34.269 --> 00:30:38.259 our 300 seat lecture theatre. that we also use 00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:41.500 for a whole host of other things. Some of it 00:30:41.500 --> 00:30:45.779 is impractical in practice and some of it just 00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:49.119 depends on what you are trying to do through 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.200 the particular mode of delivery. Maybe freedom 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:55.640 of speech is less at risk if it is a didactic 00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:58.880 piece of teaching, your chalk and talk, and maybe 00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:01.759 there are more risks in those seminar situations. 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:05.680 But it's for academics to determine what they 00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:08.299 need to do to achieve the desired learning outcomes 00:31:08.299 --> 00:31:11.359 for the piece of content they are delivering. 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:14.559 And I think there's a real dangerous crossover 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:16.900 between that. I mean, a couple of other things 00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:21.200 that left out to me were... have unrecorded Q 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:25.519 &As. Now, anybody who has speech -to -text software, 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:29.099 you're then discriminating against their right 00:31:29.099 --> 00:31:31.859 to access their learning because you are then 00:31:31.859 --> 00:31:35.000 removing their ability to understand what's going 00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.859 on. Whether they are visually impaired, hearing 00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:41.779 impaired, have dyslexia, what other executive 00:31:41.779 --> 00:31:44.279 processing difficulties that they've got, you're 00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:47.400 taking away that. Are you saying that Also, even 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.559

if you don't think about disabled students, good 00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.980 luck with that. I mean, literally, around my 00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:54.960 neck right now, I'm wearing a little recorder. 00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:58.700 Do you know what I mean? The idea that this is... 00:31:58.700 --> 00:32:01.180 I do get the feeling when I was reading it that 00:32:01.180 --> 00:32:04.579 it's a document written for colleagues at Cambridge. 00:32:04.579 --> 00:32:07.420 Yeah, it did feel very much like a... Well, obviously 00:32:07.420 --> 00:32:10.369 we'll have our tutor. and you'll go and see your 00:32:10.369 --> 00:32:12.230 tutor in their office once a week, and there 00:32:12.230 --> 00:32:14.769 will be conflicts. But there's also, practically, 00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:18.150 we are waiting for the outcome of the C6 consultation. 00:32:18.349 --> 00:32:21.369 That's coming out in, quote marks, the autumn 00:32:21.369 --> 00:32:24.890 with an implementation timeframe that is essentially 00:32:24.890 --> 00:32:28.269 overlapping the freedom of speech work. Now, 00:32:28.369 --> 00:32:30.529 most providers should have done quite a lot of 00:32:30.529 --> 00:32:32.769 this, the preparatory work for freedom of speech 00:32:32.769 --> 00:32:36.279 already, but still. particularly in smaller providers, 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:38.200 you're going to have a same couple of people 00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:41.880 doing both bits of regulatory implementation. 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:46.539 and trying to balance quite a lot of complex 00:32:46.539 --> 00:32:49.779 guidance. There's a lot of over -specifying. 00:32:50.299 --> 00:32:51.980 We've kind of got a little bit of what we asked 00:32:51.980 --> 00:32:54.660 for. Consultation promises say, we need more 00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:57.539 clarity. We need more examples. We need you to 00:32:57.539 --> 00:33:00.599 tell us exactly what you mean. Then obviously 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:04.880 now that we've got it, too much information. 00:33:05.829 --> 00:33:09.890 Now, while we've been talking, Mack, as you would 00:33:09.890 --> 00:33:13.109 be the first to say, my blogs are too long. So 00:33:13.109 --> 00:33:15.289 one of the things I didn't put in the article 00:33:15.289 --> 00:33:20.109 about the consultation is some stats that I've 00:33:20.109 --> 00:33:22.289 nevertheless thrown out as a wonk corner a couple 00:33:22.289 --> 00:33:25.750 of minutes ago that went up a bit later. And 00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:27.970 basically, one of the bees in my bonnet about 00:33:27.970 --> 00:33:31.130 all of this is, you know, where have we got the 00:33:31.130 --> 00:33:33.170 biggest problem? And actually, if you look at 00:33:33.170 --> 00:33:36.049 the stats, Not only does the free speech question 00:33:36.049 --> 00:33:39.109 in the NSS represent pretty much the best theme, 00:33:39.450 --> 00:33:41.470 right? So, you know, if you were a risk -based 00:33:41.470 --> 00:33:44.049 regulator, you'd be wandering around

the country 00:33:44.049 --> 00:33:47.130 issuing very, very detailed ideas about assessment 00:33:47.130 --> 00:33:48.910 and feedback or something, right? You know, that's 00:33:48.910 --> 00:33:51.990 what you'd do. But it's medicine. And, you know, 00:33:52.049 --> 00:33:54.829 we don't know why. I mean, OFS is still sat on 00:33:54.829 --> 00:33:56.910 this treasure trove of free text commentary that 00:33:56.910 --> 00:34:00.190 it's never analyzed that might tell us why. But, 00:34:00.329 --> 00:34:01.730 you know, if I look at all the other pieces of 00:34:01.730 --> 00:34:03.990 research that come out on MedCert, it's fitness 00:34:03.990 --> 00:34:06.650 to practice and placements. Now, there's no word 00:34:06.650 --> 00:34:08.610 on fitness to practice and placements in here. 00:34:08.750 --> 00:34:11.050 And actually, you can have all the Chattermouse 00:34:11.050 --> 00:34:13.110 rules conversations in your seminars that you 00:34:13.110 --> 00:34:15.090 want. It's not going to fix someone feeling they 00:34:15.090 --> 00:34:18.289 can't speak out on the wall, does it? The NSS 00:34:18.289 --> 00:34:20.610 question is a funny one because the extent to 00:34:20.610 --> 00:34:22.250 which everyone comprehends in the same way how 00:34:22.250 --> 00:34:24.030 a student interprets it versus how the regulator 00:34:24.030 --> 00:34:26.050 interprets it versus how a university interprets 00:34:26.050 --> 00:34:29.650 it is when they get the data back. different 00:34:29.650 --> 00:34:32.869 things it is odd that their recommendations here 00:34:32.869 --> 00:34:35.489 it seemed to be around I mean when I was reading 00:34:35.489 --> 00:34:38.030 it this morning it felt like the old feds were 00:34:38.030 --> 00:34:40.489 trying to regulate quality better here through 00:34:40.489 --> 00:34:42.469 than they do through you know their existing 00:34:42.469 --> 00:34:44.530 B conditions or quality processes I was like 00:34:44.530 --> 00:34:46.829 we're talking about pedagogy all of a sudden 00:34:46.829 --> 00:34:49.289 and actually what what we're talking about with 00:34:49.289 --> 00:34:53.380 small class sizes with you know small class sizes 00:34:53.380 --> 00:34:55.420 and you know those are those other kind of like 00:34:55.420 --> 00:34:58.000 you know round tables you know active learning 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:01.199 classrooms setting ground rules you know it's 00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:03.360 all just like it's all just good good pedagogy 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:05.539 stuff but actually it's the scaffolding to make 00:35:05.539 --> 00:35:07.360 students feel comfortable and safe in order to 00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:08.880 be able to kind of like share their thoughts 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:10.800 and opinions and it's the same sort of principle 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:12.960 which they've hinted at but not really like done 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.860 an amazing job with with c6 and e6 which is you 00:35:15.860 --> 00:35:17.900 know they want more students to you know if if 00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:19.360 unfortunately they have experienced harassment 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:21.059 they should be able to report and they should 00:35:21.059 --> 00:35:22.889 have confidence to you those mechanisms. If they 00:35:22.889 --> 00:35:24.389 don't feel like their consumer rights have been 00:35:24.389 --> 00:35:25.789 met in higher education, they want them to be 00:35:25.789 --> 00:35:27.489 able to report it. You know, if they don't feel 00:35:27.489 --> 00:35:28.869 like their free speech, you know, if they feel 00:35:28.869 --> 00:35:30.250 like their free speech has been silenced, they 00:35:30.250 --> 00:35:32.590 want them to report it. But you have to create 00:35:32.590 --> 00:35:34.289 the conditions of which they feel safe to do 00:35:34.289 --> 00:35:36.710 so and confident to do so too. And we've seen 00:35:36.710 --> 00:35:38.530 that with various pieces of research about free 00:35:38.530 --> 00:35:40.070 speech in the past, which is students are quite 00:35:40.070 --> 00:35:41.690 fine, you know, saying what they want to say, 00:35:41.750 --> 00:35:44.630 they're just not confident. It's an anxiety issue 00:35:44.630 --> 00:35:48.420 rather than a feeling of being stifled. and the 00:35:48.420 --> 00:35:50.880 the thing here is the the pedagogy and the guidance 00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:53.179 which they're giving you know is weirdly detailed 00:35:53.179 --> 00:35:55.420 for you know this bit but we haven't really done 00:35:55.420 --> 00:35:58.340 it for e6 or for c6 yet but you're right when 00:35:58.340 --> 00:36:00.500 it comes down to you know this feels like it's 00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:02.420 a bit of a cambridge seminar sort of situation 00:36:02.420 --> 00:36:05.719 rather than big class sizes you know much bigger 00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:08.440 universities now who are struggling financially 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:10.280 and aren't going to be able to now move all of 00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:12.159 their desks and tables around and start setting 00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:15.659 up 20 -room seminars. And when he gets to like 00:36:15.659 --> 00:36:17.199 courses on medicine and, you know, students that 00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:19.460 are on placement, they've got very, very different 00:36:19.460 --> 00:36:21.739 free speech needs that this guidance isn't even 00:36:21.739 --> 00:36:23.099 touching upon or, you know, there could have 00:36:23.099 --> 00:36:25.440 been at least one proposal about. I'll tell you, 00:36:25.460 --> 00:36:27.000 I'll tell you the thing that really worries me, 00:36:27.019 --> 00:36:30.519 DK, right? Unlike every other aspect of the teaching, 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.940 learning and why does student experience that 00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:35.139 a university might be responsible for? This is 00:36:35.139 --> 00:36:38.360 one where, when a complaint comes in, OFS can 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:40.079 then, and it's written it carefully, but broadly

00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:43.039 OFS has said, look, you know, if we uphold a 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:44.559 complaint, you're likely to have been in breach 00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:47.980 of a condition of registration. That's also brand 00:36:47.980 --> 00:36:50.239 new. I mean, at the moment, people uphold all 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:53.000 sorts of complaints. And that, you know, barely 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.300 speaks to OFS's regulation. In fact, we've got 00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:57.440 a blog on the site from someone who FOI'd and 00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:59.420 basically worked out that there's no process 00:36:59.420 --> 00:37:03.849 for OFS. doing that. I've described it, I can't 00:37:03.849 --> 00:37:05.190 remember, what did I do? I think I described 00:37:05.190 --> 00:37:08.230 it as you've got a kind of invasive laser on 00:37:08.230 --> 00:37:10.429 this particular aspect of teaching and learning, 00:37:10.730 --> 00:37:12.789 but then for every other aspect of teaching and 00:37:12.789 --> 00:37:15.349 learning, which has got worse satisfaction in 00:37:15.349 --> 00:37:18.090 the NSS, I might add, you've got this kind of 00:37:18.090 --> 00:37:20.889 really dull, broad flashlight where the batteries 00:37:20.889 --> 00:37:25.590 are going. To be fair, that's probably not particularly 00:37:25.590 --> 00:37:27.829 Arif Ahmed's fault. It's the way the legislation 00:37:27.829 --> 00:37:30.269 set it up, but it does seem like a really weird 00:37:30.269 --> 00:37:32.469 scenario, don't it? Where we've got an office 00:37:32.469 --> 00:37:35.090 for students. Students can't use the complaints 00:37:35.090 --> 00:37:37.389 procedure, but the people who can, can basically 00:37:37.389 --> 00:37:40.829 get a breach of registration finding out of one 00:37:40.829 --> 00:37:42.809 complaint and one incident. That's odd, isn't 00:37:42.809 --> 00:37:44.409 it? Your audios entirely. Well, we can't hear 00:37:44.409 --> 00:37:47.869 you, DK. That's odd. Right. Okay. I'm back. To 00:37:47.869 --> 00:37:51.050 be strictly fair to the OFS, they do say that 00:37:51.050 --> 00:37:53.730 even if this is identified as a breach, it doesn't 00:37:53.730 --> 00:37:55.610 necessarily mean that they're going to steam 00:37:55.610 --> 00:37:58.360 in and start taking regulatory action. But it 00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:02.079 does, as you say, it is a weird thing to be this 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:04.519 particular component of the student experience 00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:08.239 has got this absolutely gold plated system. And 00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:10.300 all of the rest of it is just like, oh, well, 00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:12.659 you can probably complain to an institution and 00:38:12.659 --> 00:38:14.559 they'll probably sort it out. If not, you can 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:16.280 complain to somebody else. They'll probably sort 00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:18.219 it out, but we don't know. We don't really care 00:38:18.219 --> 00:38:20.139 about that. And then your

complaint may or may 00:38:20.139 --> 00:38:24.920 not show up in some stats at some point. It is 00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:27.739 an odd set of priorities. They are constrained 00:38:27.739 --> 00:38:31.539 by the way the legislation has been set up. I 00:38:31.539 --> 00:38:34.340 mean, which is kind of basically because round 00:38:34.340 --> 00:38:37.639 about 2019, everybody in the conservative party 00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:40.119 decided that this issue was really important 00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:42.039 and this was something that really needed proper 00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:46.440 safeguards. It would be, I mean, given what we 00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.800 saw in the High Court recently, I would be very 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:53.380 surprised if OFS was super proactive on the idea, 00:38:54.099 --> 00:38:57.219 oh, there's been a complaint, somebody was sitting 00:38:57.219 --> 00:39:00.699 in a medicine seminar, was not allowed to talk 00:39:00.699 --> 00:39:03.199 about, I mean, gallons, theories of the four 00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:06.420 humans that control the body. their freedom of 00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:09.659 speech has been, has been traveled upon. So therefore 00:39:09.659 --> 00:39:13.099 let's close down Bristol Medical School. I think 00:39:13.099 --> 00:39:16.159 the legal grounds for doing this are quite shaky. 00:39:17.139 --> 00:39:19.900 And, and, but, you know, you'd think, I mean, 00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:21.980 parity, if you're going to do this for one kind 00:39:21.980 --> 00:39:23.679 of student complaint, you should do it for any 00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:26.559 kind of student complaint. The other thing that 00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:28.500 strikes me about those medical stats, Pam, is 00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:29.820 that, you know, in the context of what we were 00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:32.969 talking about earlier, he's tricky enough, you 00:39:32.969 --> 00:39:36.250 know, kind of corralling academics to do things. 00:39:36.489 --> 00:39:38.929 But you know, once you're saying that, you know, 00:39:39.050 --> 00:39:41.369 technically, every single placement provider, 00:39:41.590 --> 00:39:44.250 you know, in theory, I think, if I read it right, 00:39:44.550 --> 00:39:46.550 I think you or one of your colleagues, Pam, are 00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:48.690 supposed to sit down with the boss of every placement 00:39:48.690 --> 00:39:50.949 provider and say, you are allowing maximum free 00:39:50.949 --> 00:39:54.409 speech, aren't you? Like, I mean, I just don't 00:39:54.409 --> 00:39:57.170 even know, I don't even know how that would work. 00:39:57.349 --> 00:39:59.389 I'm not sure those are the skills that employers 00:39:59.389 --> 00:40:02.690 are, or maybe they are. Well, there's a broader 00:40:02.690 --> 00:40:07.630 problem with hierarchy in medical context anyways. 00:40:08.210 --> 00:40:10.929 We all know, you know, we've all come across 00:40:10.929 --> 00:40:13.269 a doctor with a gold complex and they are in 00:40:13.269 --> 00:40:16.570 a teaching situation, then their students' free 00:40:16.570 --> 00:40:20.210 speech might be limited. But from that council 00:40:20.210 --> 00:40:23.590 perspective, if you've got students going out 00:40:23.590 --> 00:40:28.030 into placements, you potentially... In local 00:40:28.030 --> 00:40:32.570 community health centers, you might have audiology 00:40:32.570 --> 00:40:36.909 students going out to Specsavers in Crossgate 00:40:36.909 --> 00:40:40.590 Leeds to do a placement there. You're going to 00:40:40.590 --> 00:40:43.289 go to every Specsavers franchise, so you can't 00:40:43.289 --> 00:40:45.730 just go to Specsavers head office. You've literally 00:40:45.730 --> 00:40:49.409 got to go to that particular placement location 00:40:49.409 --> 00:40:53.889 for sure. It's not practical and what will happen 00:40:53.889 --> 00:40:56.670 is that there will be a set of principles that 00:40:56.670 --> 00:40:59.110 are shared as part of those placement agreements. 00:41:00.030 --> 00:41:01.989 I am very looking forward to getting a leaf through 00:41:01.989 --> 00:41:05.250 the door as I do every six months from Specsavers 00:41:05.250 --> 00:41:07.869 going, not come and get your glasses fixed, but 00:41:07.869 --> 00:41:12.030 debate night. That sounds great. I'm going to 00:41:12.030 --> 00:41:14.789 bring some sandwiches. Right. Well, please, will 00:41:14.789 --> 00:41:17.309 someone make it make sense? Well, I've got good 00:41:17.309 --> 00:41:21.739 news. Higher education is a system of moving 00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:24.739 parts. Funding, teaching, research, governance, 00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:28.079 data, students, strategy, culture, international. 00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.840 Each one a world in itself and all of them connected. 00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:34.219 Most people in a sector know their part well. 00:41:34.539 --> 00:41:36.420 What's harder to come by is a working knowledge 00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:39.239 of the whole. How the pieces fit. Where the pressure 00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:41.559 points are. And what's driving the decisions 00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:44.039 that land on your desk. Here at Wonky we're doing 00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:46.360 something about that. Making sense of higher 00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:49.800 education is 10 live online modules running every 00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:53.039 three weeks from October 26 to April 27. 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education who need a proper induction 00:42:15.070 --> 00:42:17.449 into how the sector works. For governors who 00:42:17.449 --> 00:42:20.210 need cross -sector fluency fast. For experienced 00:42:20.210 --> 00:42:22.969 professionals ready to contribute beyond their 00:42:22.969 --> 00:42:25.590 own patch. We cannot wait to help you make sense 00:42:25.590 --> 00:42:28.630 of higher education. Find out more at wonky .com 00:42:28.630 --> 00:42:35.460 forward slash events. So, lots of other things 00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:37.880 have been going on this week. Who'd like to go 00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:41.239 first, DK? Okay, you might have noticed the Office 00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:43.460 of Students has got its own AI chatbot at this 00:42:43.460 --> 00:42:45.480 point. I can't see this causing any problems 00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:49.199 going forward. If you are spending 10 minutes, 00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:51.900 I mean waiting for a train or something, just... 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.800 try and get it to present you with the most bizarre 00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.460 thing you possibly can. My record thus far, I 00:42:57.460 --> 00:43:00.340 have a recipe for a vegan chocolate cake with 00:43:00.340 --> 00:43:02.780 no nuts that is compliant with the regulatory 00:43:02.780 --> 00:43:06.360 framework. If you can better that, please do 00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:08.699 send me an email. Yes, I managed to get it to 00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:12.679 speak in pirate that last week, which was excellent. 00:43:13.150 --> 00:43:16.570 In a way, I can't think of a better way to describe 00:43:16.570 --> 00:43:21.670 condition B4. Matt? I'll assume you did that, 00:43:21.670 --> 00:43:23.789 yes. This week I've been looking at one of my 00:43:23.789 --> 00:43:26.489 favourite not -so -good surveys, and I say not 00:43:26.489 --> 00:43:27.869 -so -good because the weighting isn't amazing, 00:43:27.929 --> 00:43:30.150 but it's the National Student Money Survey from 00:43:30.150 --> 00:43:32.849 Save the Student. We've touched on a lot of this 00:43:32.849 --> 00:43:34.789 already today, but one of the stats, which I 00:43:34.789 --> 00:43:37.130 looked at this survey two years ago and I wrote 00:43:37.130 --> 00:43:39.949 a piece and it was like 67 % of students are 00:43:39.949 --> 00:43:41.630 skipping meals. And I thought every year when 00:43:41.630 --> 00:43:42.980 it comes back into the inbox... because I always 00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:44.659 want to check and go, wonder what it is this 00:43:44.659 --> 00:43:46.500 year? It's 63 % this year and that, you know, 00:43:46.579 --> 00:43:48.079 it's not cause for celebration. You know, the 00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:50.280 methodology is not perfect of this survey, but 00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:52.199 every single year and every single conversation, 00:43:52.219 --> 00:43:53.760 you know. James Ranney will have been having 00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:56.260 with SU offices over the summer tells a story 00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:58.760 of food poverty and it's one which two years 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.099 ago at my end of my article says this is becoming 00:44:01.099 --> 00:44:03.880 incredibly normalized for students and the system 00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:06.360 has normalized it too and two years on I've read 00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:09.019 you know very similar stats again serving methodology 00:44:09.019 --> 00:44:11.159 not amazing but it's the same thing and I guess 00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:13.519 my kind of like call to action is there's this 00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:15.000 really nice moment happening at universities 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:16.199 right now where students are getting dropped 00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:18.420 off you know going to their first lectures and 00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:19.500 they're going to be really busy and it's going 00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:21.059 to be full and academics and lecturers are going 00:44:21.059 --> 00:44:23.309 to love it because The campus is busy and there 00:44:23.309 --> 00:44:25.389 is a moment in November, December where it'll 00:44:25.389 --> 00:44:27.210 all quieten off and everyone will start having 00:44:27.210 --> 00:44:29.449 those crisis meetings of what's happened in engagement 00:44:29.449 --> 00:44:31.610 and attendance. Oh my goodness me. What are we 00:44:31.610 --> 00:44:32.949 doing wrong? We've built all these things and 00:44:32.949 --> 00:44:35.150 they're not coming. And I just beg people not 00:44:35.150 --> 00:44:37.210 to really go straight to the, they're lazy, they're 00:44:37.210 --> 00:44:39.570 all hung over, they can't be bothered. And maybe 00:44:39.570 --> 00:44:41.150 just like take a second and go, do you know what 00:44:41.150 --> 00:44:43.010 they're doing? A really, really quite impressive 00:44:43.010 --> 00:44:45.210 balancing act right now of various different 00:44:45.210 --> 00:44:47.769 challenges. And some of that is skipping meals 00:44:47.769 --> 00:44:49.849 and working two jobs. So there's my crew people. 00:44:50.110 --> 00:44:54.409 Yeah. And part of it is some of the initial panic 00:44:54.409 --> 00:44:56.349 around food price inflation because the Strait 00:44:56.349 --> 00:44:58.389 of Hormuz has eased off, but it's actually now 00:44:58.389 --> 00:45:01.230 eased back on because of that massive, you know, 00:45:01.389 --> 00:45:03.170 climate crop damage we've had over the summer 00:45:03.170 --> 00:45:05.530 and energy bills. I mean, there was a front page, 00:45:05.530 --> 00:45:07.449 wasn't there, this week on the energy price cap 00:45:07.449 --> 00:45:08.829 is going to absolutely rock. I mean, it's not 00:45:08.829 --> 00:45:10.289 great news for Andy Burnham, but it's, you know, 00:45:10.309 --> 00:45:12.929 it's really bad news for students because I suspect 00:45:12.929 --> 00:45:15.170 that as usual, what will happen is if there's 00:45:15.170 --> 00:45:16.989 any help from government, it'll be focused on 00:45:16.989 --> 00:45:19.110 people who claim

benefits, people who pay rent 00:45:19.110 --> 00:45:24.039 and the landlord will trial. Sorry, people who, 00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:25.860 you know, pay energy bills. Landlords will try 00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:29.260 out of that and students generally aren't in 00:45:29.260 --> 00:45:30.940 the benefits system. So, you know, it's potentially 00:45:30.940 --> 00:45:33.920 a tough winter coming. I've got a new dashboard. 00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:36.980 I do like a new dashboard. Quite rightly, they 00:45:36.980 --> 00:45:39.300 are seeking seed back on this because there's 00:45:39.300 --> 00:45:42.079 definitely a few, definitely a few bugs. I'm 00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:44.400 not entirely sure what the dots on the heat map. 00:45:45.300 --> 00:45:47.099 They look a little bit like spots. They don't 00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:50.059 go bigger and smaller, but if you were. Yes, 00:45:50.099 --> 00:45:51.800 there's definitely more than one address for 00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:53.619 every franchise provider. That's one of the things 00:45:53.619 --> 00:45:56.619 I've noticed. If you're thinking strategically 00:45:56.619 --> 00:45:58.920 about your provision, then this is a great tool 00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:02.519 to help. It really helpfully links to the skills 00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.360 dashboards that are published as well. Where 00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:09.039 I think the gap is now is where the higher level 00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:13.099 skills are, where our graduate skills are required. 00:46:13.340 --> 00:46:16.119 and where there might be, and I don't know how 00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:18.059 you do this, I'm just throwing it out, where 00:46:18.059 --> 00:46:21.179 there might be opportunities to kind of build 00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:23.739 businesses and build those graduate level skills 00:46:23.739 --> 00:46:26.539 in the future because the pipeline is still not 00:46:26.539 --> 00:46:30.320 joined up. I think this is another bit of the 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:33.219 pipe. Yeah, I suppose, DK, to have the pipeline 00:46:33.219 --> 00:46:35.119 joined up, you'd need the data joined up. And 00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:36.920 that's one of the things that the dashboard doesn't 00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:41.019 really do, isn't it? No, it's like there's still 00:46:41.019 --> 00:46:43.579 a couple of different ways of thinking about 00:46:43.579 --> 00:46:46.920 subject. There's loads of different ways of thinking 00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:50.019 about geographic area. And I mean, being OFS, 00:46:50.260 --> 00:46:52.780 they have the power to say, okay, let's sort 00:46:52.780 --> 00:46:55.219 all this out. Let's not use cost centers anymore. 00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:58.500 Let's bring everything into the common academic 00:46:58.500 --> 00:47:01.849 hierarchy or something like that. I mean, that's 00:47:01.849 --> 00:47:03.650 the kind of level of thing they need to do and 00:47:03.650 --> 00:47:05.449 then build the dashboard after that. I've got 00:47:05.449 --> 00:47:07.449 a piece on this, on the site, if anybody wants 00:47:07.449 --> 00:47:09.650 to read it and me talking about dashboards. Perhaps 00:47:09.650 --> 00:47:13.230 somebody does, I don't know. I mean, DK, just 00:47:13.230 --> 00:47:18.269 before we finish off, I was playing with it yesterday 00:47:18.269 --> 00:47:21.090 and I was thinking, I am not finding this easy 00:47:21.090 --> 00:47:25.769 to monitor the market. I don't want to be overly 00:47:25.769 --> 00:47:28.889 simplistic about it, right? But whatever I thought 00:47:28.889 --> 00:47:30.769 this was going to be, this is not what it was. 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:34.679 If not, it's a very, very early stage prototype. 00:47:34.820 --> 00:47:36.679 I'm surprised that they've released it at this 00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:38.300 point, to be honest, because there's clearly 00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:40.260 a lot of work to be done in actually joining 00:47:40.260 --> 00:47:43.579 the data together. So you can think, OK, we've 00:47:43.579 --> 00:47:46.119 got a lot of research in this area about engineering. 00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:48.500 We've not got a lot of teaching spaces. Perhaps 00:47:48.500 --> 00:47:51.380 we could safely expand engineering there, because 00:47:51.380 --> 00:47:53.199 this is what local employers think. But we're 00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:57.739 a long, long way off that. That's it for this 00:47:57.739 --> 00:48:00.300 week. Remember to read about more. That's it 00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:02.420 for this week. To read more about anything we've 00:48:02.420 --> 00:48:03.940 talked about today, you'll find links in the 00:48:03.940 --> 00:48:07.579 show notes on wonky .com. Do subscribe, just 00:48:07.579 --> 00:48:09.139 search for the higher education show wherever 00:48:09.139 --> 00:48:11.739 you get your podcasts. And if you want to get 00:48:11.739 --> 00:48:14.320 ahead of everyone else on everything that's going 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.550 on in UKHG. head over to One Key, click subscriptions 00:48:17.550 --> 00:48:21.449 to find out more. Huge thanks to DK, Matt, Pam, 00:48:21.769 --> 00:48:24.289 Michael Salmon lurking behind the scenes making 00:48:24.289 --> 00:48:26.789 it all happen. We'll be back next week. Until 00:48:26.789 --> 00:48:28.050 then, stay one key.