Ukraine built a digital government app, from scratch, in 5 years, during a war의 전체 녹취록

in for the customers to get some services, was awful because you need to create your own account, remember your password, your logging, and it was awful. 00:04:55.360 --> 00:05:05.759 Um, and after we started working on Dia, it's it's changed because right now the DIA is the one-stop shop for the services. 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:09.360 So when you say awful, you mentioned like having to remember your password. 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:17.360 Can you give me examples of the kinds of things that would go wrong because the system was kind of spread across many different logins and services? 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:28.399 So just imagine you have three different agencies somewhere you can apply, you can apply for the driver's license, you need to apply for some social aid and something else. 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:39.759 And everywhere you need to create your unique login with unique password and keep everything somewhere on a piece of paper into your desk. 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:44.639 So it was hard to, you know, to maintain just for the citizens, right? 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:54.879 And every time they experience a problem with logging and they create a lot of requests, you know, to the agency, okay, how to do that and that I cannot log in. 00:05:55.120 --> 00:06:01.600 And it was like it was just difficult for the citizens, you know, to so the inbound call volume as well, right? 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:04.480 Like people are actively saying, Hey, can I help recover my password? 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:05.360 Those kinds of things. 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:13.519 Did each department have copies of like your address or your passport number, or was it like only one department have one thing? 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:22.240 Every department has the copy of the information that you provided to them at that time when you provided that information. 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:25.120 So it was a lot of duplicates everywhere. 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:29.199 And the system, they are not talk with each other. 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:32.800 So they do not know if you're applying for the driver license. 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:44.240 The driver license division doesn't know if your current address or even your address that you provide it to them in an application is valid because they cannot they cannot, you know, uh validate it. 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:45.600 There are no option. 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:54.000 So so a department could be sending you mail to an old address that you're no longer at, and you've updated it with a different department, but not the one that's trying to reach you. 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:54.560 Exactly. 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:57.839 So these sound like pretty common problems for Canadians too. 00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:59.439 Obviously, you wanted to fix that stuff. 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.959 What was the spark that led to the creation of Dia? 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:15.040 I think the pre I won our president, because he had this idea when he when the election starts, he um he had this idea about DIA in his election company. 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:21.360 So he nudged people like our us to start working on that project. 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:24.079 So it was actually part of his campaign plan. 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:25.759 He like was promising this. 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:26.639 Yeah, yeah. 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:30.800 He promised to build the government in app and he made it. 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:34.160 And this is something that the citizens were asking for. 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:36.240 They were saying, please build us a digital app. 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:42.800 We did not sought like a lot of feedback from the citizens that we want to app, right? 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:55.040 We want everything in a like, yeah, we know that people wanna have the easiest way to access to the services, to have an option, to get an option to communicate with the government. 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:03.759 But I don't think that we did any research and like we received a lot of requests to have an app, you know, to build an app. 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:14.000 But the president team, they're really good and they did some research, and they came to that point that we are moving to the digital world. 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:20.959 I mean, we are already in a digital world, and the most used device right now is the phone. 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.240 So phone with you every time, all the time, right? 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:25.519 During your day. 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:37.919 So and the building, the creating the app in your mobile phone where you can interact with the government in different ways, this is um a good project for the Ukrainians. 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:38.399 Sure. 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:39.279 It's interesting though. 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:42.480 I mean, you didn't have public demand, it was just the obvious solution. 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:43.919 So you put it in the campaign. 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:48.799 I've seen different approaches to solving these issues of single sign-on and single source of truth. 00:08:48.960 --> 00:09:03.200 Obviously, in Estonia, and we did a conversation with someone about this a while back, they kind of got a chance to build it from scratch because they had the existing government kind of pulled out, and then they built this single source of truth with a you know proper ledger and all that stuff. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:11.519 Ukraine's a lot more like Canada in that you had all these different departments already in place, and you were trying to get them all to cooperate. 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:16.879 So it's a it's a different problem from having the luxury of kind of being able to pull everything out, right? 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:31.279 But I mentioned there are two things single sign-on, which is I can log in once and it just works, and then data sharing, which is each department can talk to the others, and then single source of truth, where there's only one

record for each piece of data. 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.720 Those seem like three separate but related problems. 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:39.759 Can you explain like how Ukraine thought about those things when it was beginning to build DIA? 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:47.440 We started with the single sign on to create the space where people can access to everything. 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:49.600 A DIA was that product, right? 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:58.080 So now when you're logging in a DIEA, you have an option to uh ask about some services. 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:03.200 And uh also you will have your digital document. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:05.919 Right now it's more than it's 19 actually. 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:12.320 19 documents and 70 plus 74 uh different digital services. 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:14.240 When you started, how many services was it? 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:20.240 We actually started just with uh two digital documents actually, not the services, but not even services, just two documents on your phone. 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:28.720 Yeah, one of the most popular uh documents, it's a driver license and the uh weekle registration certificate. 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:41.600 I know in US, in Canada, the the weekle vehicle certification registration, it's just a piece of paper, but in Ukraine, it's kind of the plastic document, same as a driver license, and it's used a lot. 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:46.720 So all drivers keep it with them driver license and the weekly registration all the time. 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:49.840 So, I mean, that talk about a minimum viable product. 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:53.440 You literally are like, we just put your driver's license and registration on your phone. 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:53.759 That's it. 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:54.159 Yeah. 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:58.159 And you had to sign in with a username and password to get that information. 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:08.000 So we're using bank ID identification because we have the whole national bank identification structure in Ukraine. 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:09.679 So we used that tool. 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:25.279 Also, later we um added an option to log in India using your physical passport, using the NFC to scan the chip on the passport, and it's let you to log in in India. 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:27.039 On the phone, that's amazing. 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:33.360 So so two authoritative sources, either a bank or your passport, which presumably you know a lot about. 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:35.519 Uh and the passport does it have biometrics? 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:38.559 It would look at your picture to make sure it matched the picture on the phone. 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:39.440 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:45.120 So how that process is actually working, you can connect your phone, right? 00:11:45.200 --> 00:12:09.360 You open the and like put your phone on a passport where the chip is, and then it's reading the chip information, then it's comparing you with

the picture from the uh from the passport, and it's actually sent the request to the registrar to validate if it's still valid, if it's everything okay, and if responses came like, yeah, it's the true, you know, not the false, but the true. 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:11.519 So it'll let you lock in in in DM. 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:18.480 So that's a pretty secure sign-in because you've got biometrics, you look a certain way, you've got a thing you own, which is your passport. 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:18.960 Yeah. 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.960 And you're using the phone, which is using your camera, to verify in real time that you're there. 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:28.480 So it sounds like a pretty robust uh system, but also you don't really need to remember passwords in that world. 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:29.039 Yeah. 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:29.679 Yeah. 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:31.120 Makes it a little easier. 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:31.519 Yeah. 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:33.440 So that was single sign-on. 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:35.039 And what about department data sharing? 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:39.200 Could you get the departments to share data with one another, or was that something they just never were going to do? 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:40.639 I will start with this. 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:56.240 So even before DIA was created, the Ukraine started working on some tool that will help agency to communicate with each other uh and using the secure protocol of data exchanging. 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:02.399 We call it Trimbita in Ukraine, but it's actually the Estonia product. 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:06.159 They call it, it's called uh X-Road in Estonia. 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:14.559 So they share uh the experience how they build that and we rebuild the same tool in Ukraine, and we're still we're still using it. 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:17.759 So it started even later than DIA was created. 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:19.279 Um but it was hard. 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:28.399 It was hard to nudge agencies to use the tool because they have their own world and own space, and they're like, yeah, we we're good here. 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:35.039 So you had a protocol that would allow one department to say to another, hey, what's this user's address? 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:37.200 But the departments weren't really cooperating. 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:46.720 So yes and no, because of the data privacy and we are we want that our citizens keep feel protected, feel safe. 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:53.200 We are not using the users' data without letting them know that we are using the their data. 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:59.840 For example, India, if you would like to apply for some services, for example, update your driver license. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:06.480 Whenever you're filling your application, it has like your first and last name, your tax number. 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:16.559 We have it in Ukraine, and it's one of the unique identifiers that we're using to pull the data from the

different system and registers for the user. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:29.679 So we need to fill like your first name, last name, your uh tax number, your address, your driver license information, and all this information stored in different places, right? 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:43.519 Because we have the registers that are keeping information about your address, and we have the register that keeping the information about your tax number, and DIA says, okay, we will take the data from the different registers. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.200 And the the users know about that. 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:46.960 So they let DIA to do that. 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:52.000 When you log in first time in DIA, it has like the privacy notice statement. 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:58.559 So you read that and you acknowledge that DIA will take the data from the register for you. 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:03.840 So we're not, you know, doing something on the back end without user. 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:19.519 So if I understand correctly, instead of trying to get all of the different departments to share data, the citizen or the user says, I trust DIA and I authorize DIA to go to all these departments and get what it needs to build me a particular document. 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:23.600 We're talking about the DIA context, yes, you do that. 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:36.159 But there are some kind of procedures where the agency can share data between each other just to fill the register with the new and updated information about the user. 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:39.840 So yeah, it's possible for that purposes. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:45.039 We have a Bill's laws where all the procedure is clearly defined. 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:57.200 And if you're interested in how that agency or that specific project or service working, you can read it in the law and it kind of it could have the statement about data sharing between the agencies. 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:02.159 So the third thing, I guess we talked about data sharing, but now there's the question of single source of truth. 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:07.120 If the address is in three or four places, how does DIA know which one is the current one to use? 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:09.360 We know what is the source of truth. 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.799 So we know the register on the back end it's defined. 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:16.399 And in the legal world in Ukraine, it's also defined. 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:24.480 So we know that address information, the valid one, the newest one, store it only in a demographic register. 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:33.759 So if we will fill your application for user, we're gonna use the address just from that register because this is the source of truth. 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:40.480 And if you use DIA to change your address, then it knows to write to the demographic database, not to some other thing. 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:40.960 Yeah. 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.799 So eventually you're just making these old addresses kind of just get stale. 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:50.799 Like they're still there, but it's up to the department if it wants to use a stale one or it could just go ask the authoritative one. 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.000 Does that mean that like our departments starting to converge now? 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:57.120 Are they starting to realize I should just use the demographic address? 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:14.880 I think they they own the way to re some of the some of the agencies already realized and they making some steps to create a data sharing between a demographic register just to take the data from them and validate the information about the users and store it in their registers. 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:20.319 So some agencies are doing that already, and some just starting considering about that. 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:20.799 Okay. 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:23.039 Tell me about citizens being concerned about this. 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:24.640 You mentioned they can go check the law. 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:26.559 You said, you know, we want to protect the citizens. 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:32.319 When this started, were the citizens concerned about this perception of all the data being in one place? 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:37.359 Even though, as you said, it wasn't really in one place, it was just being assembled by DIA in one place. 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:40.640 What were the opponents to modernization saying about this initiative? 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:48.160 So I can say people, some people still have a concern, and we continue to answer the questions that they have. 00:17:48.400 --> 00:18:00.799 So to show people that we are trying to do as much as we can to protect their data using the secure protocol, using the instruction, how we can see the data on the back end. 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:07.279 And the first couple years, the DIA did not save any data about users. 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.440 So at all, like nothing. 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:22.319 Now, because we have more services, so we have the hash data on the back end because the product is growing and the interactions is growing, and we just rebuild a little bit the architecture. 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:34.480 For the non-technical people, when you say hash data, you mean you're storing some encrypted signatures and stuff on it that are useless to anyone, but they save you compute time by having like a thing you can verify locally. 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:35.039 Is that right? 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:35.599 Yes. 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:36.640 Yeah, exactly. 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:37.119 Okay. 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:40.960 So you said that you started out with like driver's license and registration. 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:43.359 Obviously, there are more things than that in it now. 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:48.480 So can you tell me a little about what the roadmap was and how quickly you added new features? 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:56.799 The roadmap was to start adding the services

and documents that Moss used between the citizens. 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:05.680 So we have the statistics and data from agencies, how many documents are exist, you know, how many renewals people doing per year. 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:12.880 And this is was the start point to make a decision what need to be making DIA sooner or later, right? 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:14.799 Just to help us to prioritize. 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.759 And we have our internal developer team. 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:23.039 So DIA is not something that has the base on some existing tool. 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:27.920 It's just its in-house tool was created by Scratch. 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.200 The EPOM, it's well-known dev company in the world. 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:35.279 The EPOM helped us to create the MVP product. 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:41.200 And then we hired our own developers, and now it's an in-house team who are uh building the services. 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:43.920 So it's dependent on the where you at? 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:45.519 Like you started out with driver's license, right? 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.240 What was the next big one that everyone was like, finally, that's on there? 00:19:48.480 --> 00:20:11.519 So the next one was kind of the certification, the student certificate, uh, that show you have like the master's degree, bachelor's degree, or whatever, and uh the pension certificate, because we have a lot of pensioners and the people using the certificate for for the public transportation a lot to buy the medication pharmacy. 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.319 So it sounds like it started with credentials. 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:14.720 Yeah. 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:16.720 Here's what I'm able to do. 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.960 I can drive a car, I can get this medication, I have this level of education. 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:28.799 So it sounds like things like a driver's license or registration or student or accreditation, these are forms of documentation. 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:40.079 And you're authenticating that those are real, but there's a difference between that and getting DIA to do something like change an address or using it for a transaction like a public transit payment system or something. 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:48.079 At what point did DIA evolve from a set of credentials to actually taking actions on behalf of the citizen? 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:55.920 So in our plan, it was on the start, and in our plan was to create the services and help people to make some interactions. 00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:02.559 So we started with the main documents, um, depend on the statistics, right, that we got from the agencies. 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:06.559 And then we start we start building the services. 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:22.000 So the first services I remember it was kind of the statement from the register uh people can use then to apply for the services that for that time was still like in a in a person. 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:23.839 So we created that one. 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:33.200 Then we launched the driver license renewal because it also was really one of the most popular services. 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:39.519 And then in a couple of years, war started and it's completely changed our plan. 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.680 So when war hit, how did you how did DIA change? 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:48.480 What what happened to the existing services that people could expect from Ukraine? 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:50.960 And uh what was Dia's new role? 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:52.640 Yeah, it's a good question. 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:59.839 So when the full scale invasion invasion starts, I think everyone plans changed and DIA plans as well. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:07.279 So I think we had had a break for the day just to recognize what happens because nobody expected it. 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:09.839 It could be right in the 21st century. 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:30.799 But Dia, we we turned back to work and we started with the new type of credentials because a lot of government registers and systems was turned it off in a preventive purpose, just to keep data secure and not let anyone get an access to it. 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:39.519 So if I understand this data is in data centers in Ukraine, if someone invader were to come in and access that, they would be able to compromise your credentials. 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:43.519 And so those systems were disabled preventively ahead of time. 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:54.000 And so you now needed a new credential, but you could do it on DIA because DIA was properly deployed in a sort of resilient way with backups and other systems that maybe the older ones didn't have. 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:54.480 Is that right? 00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:54.880 Yeah. 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.119 Yeah. 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:56.720 DIA have a couple backups. 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:02.000 And that led us to create the new type of credentials. 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:11.839 Like we called it e-document that helps people to verify the identity when they um came through the checkpoints. 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:18.799 Also, a lot of people are migrated from different parts of Ukraine closer to the Poland, right? 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:20.079 To the west of Ukraine. 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:24.160 And um, when when this happened with you, you are not thinking about anything. 00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:26.480 You just try to keep yourself alive. 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.720 So you just run without any document. 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.200 You just keep your phone in a hand. 00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:31.920 That's it. 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:41.119 So it helps the people also, you know, like use the trains and all other transport where you need to verify your identity, right? 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:42.720 And show who you are. 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:43.440 Wow. 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:45.839 So it really became an instrument of national security. 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:46.319 Yes.

00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:48.960 So I've heard other stories about DIA. 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:56.960 One was that if you wanted to report like a saboteur or a spy, it was a way for you to authenticate people who were reporting things during the war. 00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:57.759 Is that the case? 00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:59.119 It is, yes. 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:04.400 So we had a chatbot in DIA that helps you to report on Russians. 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:13.519 Because DIA is verifique who you are, we know that the information that providing through the DIA is valid. 00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:17.759 So our army can react on that. 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:23.200 And did Russia attack the communications channels like TV and radio? 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:27.279 Or, you know, usually the they say the first casualty of war is information. 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.000 So you normally target the communication systems. 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.400 Did DIA fill the gap there as well? 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:32.960 Yes. 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:35.279 It's again, it's a good question, Alistair. 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:36.559 I'm so impressed. 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.839 Um Russians destroyed a lot of infrastructure. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.559 And they're still doing that. 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:56.240 And to keep Ukrainians updated about the situation, what's going on, we created an option in DIA to be able to watch the news and listen to radio. 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:02.160 It was especially important for the people who was already on the occupated territory. 00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:10.480 Even if they still have some kind of infrastructure, they just turned off all the Ukrainians' TV channels and radio channels. 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:11.039 Wow. 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:26.799 These are things that you usually don't think about in, you know, most countries, but I'm thinking about the dual use nature of credentials and resiliency in a world where, as Mark Carney says, you know, uh nostalgia is not a strategy on a slightly later note. 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:28.160 Tell me about the tank game. 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:29.519 It's my favorite. 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.359 It was our actually was our minister idea. 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.759 So the war is the worst things in the world, right? 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:47.440 And just to bring some joy and fun, we decided to give uh people an option to play games in Dia. 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.319 Why not? 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:58.880 But it was not just a game, it was the game when you can destroy the Russians, the Russians' uh drones and other stuff. 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:00.640 So a little tank battle game in there. 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:23.599 I've heard stories about you know how Ukraine has become really an innovation lab for a lot of these things, that when you have crews that go out, anti-tank crews that are piloting drones, they like score points if they do well, and then they can spend those points on

new equipment so that the best teams get to go and get new things and experiment with new things, which creates this kind of learning cycle. 00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:27.680 It seems like that's almost still taken from video games, right? 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:33.039 Like in a video game, you do a fight and then you get some experience points and you spend them on new equipment. 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:42.400 It feels like there's a level of innovation happening, sometimes out of necessity, that is different from what a lot of a lot of other countries see. 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:52.880 Do you feel like that kind of iteration and and uh experimentation has always been in Ukraine, or is it something that has been forced on it by the current geopolitical realities? 00:26:53.119 --> 00:27:10.880 I think it always been, but I also think that when this new team came uh to the government, they weren't afraid to bring all this idea to the government and make it less bureaucratic and more transparent and more human, right? 00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:25.119 Because usually when we're talking about government, it's something that closed from the public eyes, nobody knows what's happening on the back end, and we feel like they are speaking a different language, right? 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:26.079 Than we. 00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:46.000 So I think we just the DIA team and Ministry of Digital Transformation in general, we just try to react on people's needs, what people say, what they think, and we weren't afraid to implement it and see what happened. 00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:57.200 Yeah, it seems like the country's attitude and leadership were ready for a level of experimentation and iteration and and sort of transparency that wasn't necessarily there in the past. 00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.599 Dia is now being exported to other countries, right? 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:02.480 Like other countries are taking this model and implementing it themselves. 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:03.759 Yes, it's true. 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:04.319 Yeah. 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:10.480 Yeah, we have a team who are like consulting our countries. 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:13.839 It does seem like you know, technology is good, but it's not enough. 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:23.279 Figured out a solution to put a layer on top of old ministerial silos that presents a unified model to the users. 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:29.359 And then once those customers, those users, those residents start using it, now they kind of see the promise and they get buy-ins. 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:36.720 So can you tell me somebody who, like in 2019, was skeptical, maybe wanted the government to stay out of their data? 00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:37.839 How are they feeling today? 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.119 How did public sentiment change as you delivered more features? 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:43.680 Oh, I love this question. 00:28:43.839 --> 00:29:04.160 Yeah, there was a lot of skeptical people around, but I just want to say that

to make it changes like Ukraine made, you need to have a really powerful leader who will um nudge everyone else to follow this project. 00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:11.920 So at first, we just use this attitude that here's the rule, here's the promise, we need to do that. 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:14.880 Don't make me call Vladimir, that kind of attitude. 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:15.839 Yeah, okay. 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:17.839 I mean, it's it's it's fun. 00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:20.640 It sounds like a joke, but it was a reality. 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:25.200 And now and now agency sought the result, right? 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:28.880 And now everyone's already start building. 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:33.519 If they're building the services, they know what's the framework should be. 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:48.240 Yeah, it's hard for everyone, you know, to start to change your behavior and start doing something new, especially if you are not know a lot and you like worked in a in a different approach for like 10, 20 years. 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:49.519 So it's hard. 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:58.319 But I think when you like reach this point and start to seeing the result and consequences, that that that works. 00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:02.319 It really reminds me of Mike Bracken's line that the strategy is delivery. 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.000 Like, yeah, your strategy is start building things and show people what's possible. 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:07.039 Last question. 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:09.279 Um, do you have any advice for Canada? 00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:19.920 We need to get to where Ukraine is in terms of uh unified single sign-on, uh, single source of truth, you know, proper data sharing that still protects citizen privacy, all that kind of stuff. 00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:21.119 Any advice for Canada? 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:22.640 Yeah, I actually have. 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:33.920 I'm pretty sure that Canada is really good in understanding what's the best digital tool and approach you should pick. 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:43.359 I think my advice is would be change the mindset to start listening to your citizens. 00:30:43.599 --> 00:31:19.599 This is really important, and do not afraid to make changes, do not afraid to make a promise because if you make your promises, society expecting something from you, and this is like kind of building your um task list, so you need you know that you will do that, and I don't know, it's not an advice, but I believe that these changes could happen in other countries if this the country will have a strong leader. 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:26.720 Because what I'm seeing right now, it's it's really important that someone on the top support you. 00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:35.599 I just want to add one more important thing that Ukraine did in the way of creating all this deal world. 00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:50.319 We have a really, really strong marketing team who did all the researches who helps and create all these plain language communications with the government, like the citizen and government. 00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:52.559 So this is this is important. 00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:00.319 This is something that I believe in, and this is would be one, the last recommendation for the Canada and all others. 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:09.440 If you would like to build the product that people will start using, spend some time and resources on the marketing team. 00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.240 Yeah, that's something that is so often overlooked. 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:18.240 I think because government knows it's a monopoly, like people have to use the product, they just don't bother promoting it. 00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:21.200 They're like, ah, that's the product, as opposed to trying to get people excited about it. 00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:34.240 And maybe it's also seen from a public sector side as like we're not in the job of promoting things that feels partisan, but it does feel like the government could do a better job of promoting its successes and getting people excited about stuff just to maintain public demand. 00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:35.920 Thank you so much for sharing this with us. 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:45.680 I mean, Canada and Ukraine are strikingly similar in terms of having had different silos of government departments that have been there historically and don't communicate. 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:49.119 We have roughly the same population, around 30 to 40 million. 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:53.759 We have we're sort of resource-rich, large land, fairly distributed population. 00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:56.000 I think there's a lot of interesting parallels there. 00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:07.920 So it does seem like there's a lot we can learn from Dia, and hopefully we can build these kinds of solutions without having to have a foreign invasion galvanize us to act on it. 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:09.440 Better to build it while we can. 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:15.119 So if I were to go to Ukraine right now and ask the average Ukrainian on the street what they think of DIA, what would they tell me? 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:15.759 That's great. 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:22.720 They're gonna tell you that that DIA is a great product and Ukrainians are really proud of it. 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:37.279 I think uh the government, the Ukrainian government, we still continue to say the statement that DIA it's not just that we as a government build, we build it all together with Ukrainians, right? 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.960 Because we react on the needs that you guys have. 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:44.559 We did a bunch of beta testing with inviting people. 00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:49.920 The first beta test was like 50,000 people testing the driver license. 00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:51.759 So it's meant a lot. 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:54.160 Yeah, it's in its beta. 00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:55.279 Yeah, that's huge. 00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:56.559 Tanya, thank you so much. 00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:56.960 This was great. 00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:57.759 You're welcome. 00:33:57.839 --> 00:33:59.599 I was happy to talk about that. 00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:00.880 Thank you for this opportunity. 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.240 Thanks for joining us on the Functional Government Podcast.