Disability Pride, Community and the Disability Movement의 전체 녹취록

around in my day. 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:02.399 So my childhood and I suppose my teenage years, I didn't want to identify as a disabled person. 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:06.000 I didn't want to be a disabled person, it was a negative thing. 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:11.920 Um because I because I was excluded from the mainstream, very much excluded from the mainstream. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:18.959 I mean, I went to a special school, I d and there are some good special schools, but mine was not good. 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:21.519 It was uh very focused on therapy. 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:39.040 So I I wasn't I wasn't offered the same the same opportunities as other people did, wasn't offered the same opportunities as my brothers and sisters, and I couldn't understand that they were going off to mainstream school and I and I couldn't, and I knew you know that I had an inquiring mind and all of that kind of stuff. 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:42.160 So I was just isolated and I was just alone. 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:47.680 And I think as a child and a young adult, adolescence is tough enough, you know. 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:56.000 But I growing up in London, which was cool, but but I think I was isolated, I was lonely, I was angry, I was confused. 00:05:56.319 --> 00:05:59.360 So, and this in my mind was all down to my impairment. 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:11.199 But of course, as I went along, my as my journey developed, and I I met other people, right on people that helped me to understand that my disability wasn't, my medical condition wasn't a problem. 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:24.000 The barriers that society presents to me, you know, getting in my way, the attitudes, education, I suppose, at that time were just they were huge barriers to me and transport at that time. 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:31.920 And I just felt different, but I wasn't but I couldn't at that time I couldn't recognise difference as being something to celebrate. 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:34.240 It was just I I want to be like everyone else. 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:42.720 And of course now, because I'm I'm a bit of a maverick anyway, but I can see that being different is a huge, it's great, it's really great. 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:44.720 But they in those days I couldn't understand that. 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:58.319 So it wasn't until I met other disabled people, um, and we we struggled along, rubbed along together and were able to talk and discuss and and debate and all of that stuff that I began to think, yeah, actually this is quite cool. 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:01.040 So that's why I say I'm proud to be a disabled. 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:02.079 I think that's awesome. 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:02.720 I am as well. 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:06.560 And I'm not saying this to blow your trumpet, but I didn't. 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:16.240 It was when I met you and Robert Droy, who was on my last podcast, part of me, that I started to become proud of my um disability. 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:20.399 And as I'm saying, not my disability, but proud to be a disabled person. 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:35.519 Um and I'm as I said, I'm not saying it to blow your trumpet, but kind of being around, I think that's the first time I'd been around around truly empowered disabled people who were like, Well, fuck it, it's your fault that I can't get through the door, so I'm gonna crack through the middle of it. 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:37.680 Yeah, and that is not my responsibility. 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:41.360 And that that's that's also, you know, that was really awesome to me. 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:54.240 And even now when I'm delivering training, I don't mention you two by name, but I talk about kind of that journey to my own empowerment um through meeting other people who were living it already. 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:55.279 Yeah, thank you. 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:56.959 That's that's a really cool thing to say. 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:01.040 But you see, that that's so interesting because that was so my experience. 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.759 You you didn't feel it until you met Robert and I. 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:08.079 I didn't feel it until I met these other, you know, these other people, you know. 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:16.079 It doesn't matter now in the context of how I talk about um disabled people collectively and through around the social model. 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:17.040 It doesn't matter. 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:26.000 But in those days, one was in a wheelchair, so I could see it, see that this person was disabled, and the other person I think she walked with a stick. 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:35.759 And that and they were both really cool and and and and you know, philosophical and interested in exploring ideas and challenging and all of that stuff. 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:41.519 I mean, this was the very these were the very early days that the very beginning of this kind of stuff. 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:44.480 So it was the time it was the right time to be to be around. 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:46.720 And you you know, you talk about coming into meetings. 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.039 Did you say that you came into meetings with me? 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:49.919 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:53.840 I met you in the yeah, I met you in a um a co-production panel. 00:08:54.080 --> 00:09:06.799 Yeah, well, you see, it's very interesting because to mirror mirroring that my experience was very similar because as I said, I was angry, you know, I was confused, all the rest that I've just explained. 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:11.519 And they said, come along to a meeting, and I thought, no, who's gonna be at this meeting? 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:14.080 They said, other disabled people. 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:16.960 And I was like, No, not a job. 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:18.000 I don't want to go. 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:24.000 And then somebody, I think it might have been a social worker, she drew drew alongside me and said, You'd be really good, please come.

00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:26.960 I said, Who's gonna be there apart from these other disabled people? 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:30.879 Head of the council's gonna be there, Bernie, and we want to start making some changes. 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:43.919 So I went along to this meeting, and this is where these two women were that I've just explained, and they didn't say much, they were really welcoming, uh, and and I I being outspoken and got lots of ideas. 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:46.159 I just I said, I can't even remember. 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:48.159 I mean, you know, this was a long time ago. 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:56.799 I was in my twenties, and I I think we were talking about disabled people and and driving, and I was saying things like, We need to make it easier, don't you? 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:01.440 You need to make tr you need to make driving instruction easier and all all the access stuff. 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:03.200 And I I can't remember what I said. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:18.399 It it pressed somebody's buttons because after the meeting, these two girls came over and these two women came over and said, not girls, women, came over and said, Would you be interested in joining you know, this organisation? 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:22.720 And I was like, and then I sat and talked to them a bit more and I thought, yeah, they're quite interesting. 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:28.960 So I I went along and I and uh, you know, they they they were they were employed. 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:39.200 What had happened is the local authority had got a small amount of money and they'd bid for this organization, or they'd bid on the local authority's behalf. 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:42.320 And it I was going into a room and it was like a broom cupboard. 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:43.120 It was tiny. 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:43.440 Wow. 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:50.960 Tiny, tiny, as tiny as you can imagine, just about get your wheelchair in there, and one desk, one phone, and that was all that it had in there. 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:58.000 And I used to go in there maybe once for once or twice a week just to help out with the phones, because I had two young children at the time as well. 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.120 I mean, very young children that had just started school. 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:08.320 So when the kids is when the kids were kind of at school, I used to I used to go in and help out and volunte volunteer. 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:10.559 And then they asked me to go to a meeting. 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:15.200 They said what we're gonna have the first management, one of the first or second management committees. 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:21.679 They'd got other people together, and they asked everybody around the table to, and I really didn't want to go to the meeting. 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:30.480 It was the same scenario to have to these people because I'd done everything in my everything possible to get away from disabled people. 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:37.440 I

didn't want to associate with disabled people because I'd been forced to through school and medical stuff and everything else. 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:43.679 And I went along to the meeting and we sat down around the table, and they said, like, can everyone introduce themselves? 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:45.360 And I waited until near the end. 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:50.320 And everybody around the table introduced themselves in relation to their medical condition. 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:51.360 Oh, really? 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:52.159 Wow. 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:54.720 Like, my name's Pauline and I've got MS. 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:56.960 My name's Sid, and I, you know, all of that. 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:00.559 So, like, as a person with cerebral palsy, this is my opinion. 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:02.639 That was their whole identity. 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:06.159 Their whole identity was fixed around their medical condition. 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:06.720 Jeez. 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:09.919 And I got it got to me and I just said, uh, I can't remember what I said. 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.960 I probably conformed because I was feeling uncomfortable. 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:15.519 I can't remember, but I remember that feeling very strong. 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:18.639 Why are they all talking about their medical condition? 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:27.519 And that's how it started, and then I got to know these the people in the organization more and we began to develop ideas and stuff. 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:38.159 My gosh, so so was it that the people were introducing themselves by their medical condition, that was their identity because they were disempowered, or was it for a specific reason? 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:44.240 Well, I I I suppose I suppose it I suppose I don't know, I don't know the re the answer to that. 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:46.799 I I can only I can only surmise. 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:52.000 I mean, in those days, disabled people generally disabled people weren't empowered. 00:12:52.480 --> 00:13:00.480 In those days, disabled people didn't have a sense the majority, not all, because there were little grant there were little bits beginning to develop. 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:15.200 But but in those days, disabled people didn't have a sense of sovereignty of who they were, of the fact that you are in your own right powerful, you know, so you don't have to you don't have to and I was in a similar place, to be fair. 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:19.919 I didn't know that I was powerful in my own right, but I knew I wanted something better. 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:30.799 But I think I think we, you know, in some ways I think I mean I I always wonder whether we're in the echo chamber and that we think that we're really kind of enlightened as a society. 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:37.120 I mean, obviously we know what's going on in the world, um, but we think we're really enlightened as a society. 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:41.120 But is it the that we are around people who are empowered? 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:48.960 So I was in a meeting this morning where I do say I'm a disabled person because it's wrapped up in what I do for work. 00:13:49.120 --> 00:14:00.720 You know, I run Celebrating Disability, which is a user-led organization, and I'm really proud that it's a user-led organization, and we only hire disabled people, and we're a disabled person's organization. 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:05.039 So it's very important that I mention that I'm a disabled person. 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:10.320 But um, somebody said, Oh, I should introduce you to blah blah blah. 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:11.679 She's wheelchair bound. 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:28.720 Um, and obviously that's not what the person thinks about themselves, but that there's still this kind of perception that you must know this person, I must introduce you to this person, you'll get on really well because they're also, you know, and the terminology wheelchair bound, they're also stuck like you, kind. 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:30.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:36.399 But I don't know what is that is that about that about living in living in a small world? 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.279 That's about the assumptions people make, actually. 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:40.960 I mean, yeah, isn't it? 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:41.519 Yeah. 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:50.879 I think it's also it is about the assumptions people make, but it's also I think about I think sometimes I still hear disabled people introduce themselves like that. 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:56.159 I mean, you're talking about kind of how people introduce themselves when you start to go to meetings. 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:01.919 I remember at school, people would sit around talking about the medications that I mean I went to special school as well. 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:19.840 They sit around talking about the medications they were on, and even now, um, you know, sometimes I see somebody on the train who a disabled person on the train that I haven't seen for a while, and they give me their whole like last month's kind of background of their medical condition for hospital visits. 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.879 And it's like, I'm gonna put my headphones on now because I don't care. 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:36.080 But you know, I think I think there are us that are empowered, but I think there's also a lot of us that are still really disempowered and still think that you know we only thing for us is to talk about what's wrong. 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:37.120 Yeah, absolutely. 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:40.080 And that can just be down to personality though, can't it? 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:48.799 It it it it doesn't necessarily mean it's down to you know because not everybody's politicized because I think it's a political issue. 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:54.080 So so you know, not everybody not everybody's op wants wants to be on that bus. 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:55.279 They just don't. 00:15:55.600 -->

00:16:10.559 I suppose I I came and you came having some idea of you must have had some idea of rights, even at an unconscious level, or or wanting things to change, you know, or progress or or all of those things. 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:13.919 I suppose I I came from that because I came with that. 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.159 I think you know, maybe it's the same with you, but I think I was a fighter. 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:20.000 I just came as a rebel. 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:21.440 Yeah, no, I think so. 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:27.360 And you know, rebel I used to call myself a rebel without a cause, but now I think it's I'm a rebel with a cause. 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:29.200 But yeah, I do. 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:39.519 I think that my mum brought me up to you know, she didn't politicize anything for me, but she she always says, you know, you deserve better, essentially. 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:44.960 And that was through her behaviour and her language, you deserve more from life. 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:46.960 Yes, exactly, exactly. 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:53.519 And you see, for me, I grew up in an Irish family, and my both my family were politically aware. 00:16:53.679 --> 00:17:04.960 I mean, uh as you s just as you say, it was in their behaviour, it was in it was in the the s the conversations, it was in the reading that they did, the papers, newspapers that they read. 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:07.599 It was it was just in those things, you know. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:12.160 And also I think for me, I grew up in a time of revolution, you know. 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:19.200 To put it into context, I was very fortunate to have grown up in West London in a time of revolution. 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:26.799 Yeah, you know, and and that you know, Vietnam was going on, black power was going on, all of that all of that really good stuff. 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:38.400 People were beginning to stand up and shout, and and Greenham Common and all of those all of those environmental uh uh change movements were happening all around you. 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:43.359 So um I think all of that uh was very fertile and and a a good time. 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:44.720 It was a great time to grow up. 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:50.160 I'm guessing that you didn't have to search very far to find like-minded people really. 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:57.039 No, no, no, no, and not just like-minded people in well, maybe in terms of disabled people. 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.039 I didn't have any like-minded people in in in terms of disabled people. 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:10.960 But my you know, my best, my best friend, I think her family were very involved um in in being aware of the struggle. 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:20.960 They were a Jamaican family and she was they were very aware of the struggle and that was going on, and and you know, yeah, it was just that kind of time really. 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:27.200 So I'm not aware of of of being reading or I don't know, it's a funny thing. 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:38.880 I did it I really want to get into this because I think it's such an amazing kind of journey that you went on, but you know, even without people saying it every day, kind of it's in the air, isn't it? 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:39.759 It's yes. 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:44.079 That that kind of excitement and that energy is is all around you or the time. 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:49.759 It's all around you, it's in the music, yeah, it's culture, it's in the music, it's in everything around you. 00:18:49.839 --> 00:19:07.680 I mean, you know, you'd walk down the street and you'd hear Bob Marley, or you'd walk down the street, you'd hear Marvin Gaye, or or uh or um and Irish music as well, because it was a very difficult time in Irish in Ireland's history as well, you know, around um the struggles that was going on in the north of Ireland. 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.440 And of course that was that was very much talked about at home. 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:26.160 So whether somehow that gets into your psyche, or as you say, through behaviour, through the food you eat, through the people that you mix with, I just knew that there had to be there had to be a better world, not just for me, but for all disadvantaged people. 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.240 So we went out for and we are gonna get back to your kind of story. 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:38.400 We went out for lunch a few weeks ago, um, and we were in a restaurant, and the waitress was quite rude to me. 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:49.920 And you saw that I was upset, um, and and the way that it manifested, the rudeness manifested, is that I asked for my food to be cut out for an access requirement, and they made it really difficult. 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:58.079 Um, and you said, God, I can't remember the line now, but it was from a Marvin Gaye song, and I actually put it into a training session as a result. 00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.759 Yeah, I know that you're gonna say. 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.119 Yeah, you said the way they live our lives. 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.680 So the way they live our lives. 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:06.160 Yeah. 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:24.160 And the point I want to make just now is that in that moment, and again, this kind of seems like I'm blowing a Bernie's trumpet episode, but in that moment, it helped me feel better because it was something to kind of, I'm not the only person that goes through this, I'm not the only person that's oppressed in this way. 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:38.960 Other people have articulated it in different ways, and it must have been like that in the time when you know this revolution was happening and all of this going around you that wherever you were hearing the music, kind of listening to people's speeches and stuff. 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:42.240 It's it's in everything that everybody's doing and saying. 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.680 And so it it it kind of it must must have felt in some way a little bit comforting

as well. 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:54.000 I think it it started to feel comforting when I met with other when I started to meet with other disabled people. 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:59.599 I mean, I'm I'm talking this bit that I'm talking about now was was when I was a teenager. 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:09.519 Um and as you say, it was everywhere and it was exciting, but I didn't really understand, I didn't really I didn't really know how to to articulate that, what to do about it. 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:10.799 I just found it exciting. 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:15.759 I mean, I remember watching the Vietnam War on TV and and I was absolutely appalled. 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:23.039 And I remember hearing about the average soldier coming back from Vietnam was 17, you know, and I just could not believe it. 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:24.799 I could not believe it. 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:34.640 Um, you know, my f m m and and my family and my and my my best friend, I I had two best friends, one was from Mauritius and one was from Jamaica. 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:59.839 And the one from Jamaica, they they were um they weren't that well off, but I was amazed how how rich and what a life of value it was, you know, because they do they do these things like if they didn't have they'd have these parties with these great big speakers and they'd and they'd ever invite everybody in and then the to pay the gas bill, they'd they'd sell the food and and they'd have DJs. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.599 Jays in there and all of that stuff. 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:03.200 And I was always invited. 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:06.319 And I just felt felt so privileged to be part of that. 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:13.359 And so the the different ways that people respond to the barriers that they face in life and how they overcome that. 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.359 And then and then I and then I went away to college. 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:20.400 And that was another exclusion that I didn't want to go to. 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:26.400 But I did that because it was my only way of get of moving out of my parents' house as a teenager. 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:28.240 It was the great escape. 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:34.000 But there I met some really cool people as well, but not political, but people that were having having fun. 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:43.440 And I began and I and I began to see it's not all about misery and and because you know how being a teenager is, it's all in your head, isn't it? 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:44.799 And you think you're the only one. 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:50.319 And so then I then around that time I met my husband, and he was very he was quite alternative. 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:51.359 And then what happened? 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:59.680 Then I had children, and then I it was only then when my son was four months old that I began to get involved in the movement. 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:00.720 So I was a young mum. 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:02.319 Because you had nothing else

to do. 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:05.200 Struggling to get out, struggling, isolated. 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:15.279 I mean, it's isolating enough being a mother with a young baby, but when you've got an impairment and nobody around you is disabled, there were very few disabled people that had parents. 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:16.720 But that was my idea. 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.200 The whole thing for me with that was, oh, I'm normal. 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:21.759 This is a move towards normality. 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:29.359 But it yeah, yeah and it which wasn't always the best way to plan a family which isn't the best way to put a family. 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:30.559 But it was a step. 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:32.559 It was a step on my journey, I think. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:38.640 My me taking control of who I am and what I want out of life, and I'm not gonna have this. 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:49.039 And then I met these other people, and it was like a magnet that I was listening to them talking about their experience and other people talking about their their experience as well. 00:23:49.279 --> 00:24:02.319 The net began to widen, and then this movement, this idea began to spread throughout it wasn't start didn't start in London, the movement actually, I suppose you could argue that it officially started in Hampshire. 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:11.680 Because there were four disabled people in Hampshire that decided they were going to move out of residential homes, and that's when direct payments started. 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:13.599 Yeah. 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:33.039 So so tell us about your kind of your experience and how you got involved in the movement or how you were involved in the movement, because I know that some you were involved in some really, you know, prevalent and important things that still impact the way that disabled people are able to live their lives today. 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:34.000 Today, yeah. 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:35.440 I mean it wasn't just me. 00:24:35.519 --> 00:25:08.079 Um what I'd say is that there was pockets all around the country that were doing similar, but my experience was so I went to this meeting and I expressed my uh some of my ideas, and then I went to this other meeting and and uh began to attend this committee meeting on a regular basis, and I'd go home at night and I'd when the kids were in bed and I'd write up agendas and we'd chat on the phone and we'd chat on the phone about ideas and um about you know what we felt the committee needed to discuss. 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:16.960 Um and I can't remember how it happened, but the local authority that I was living in, this was way before direct payment. 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:27.119 So so the local authority that I'd live in in got some money and wanted to develop a centre for independent living, which started out with with very good ideas. 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:40.799 So I began to work with that that project, and what we did was we put together um a

list of we put we just brainstormed what were the things we felt we needed to change. 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:57.119 The things that had come not just from our point of view, but the things that had come up in at the group meetings and stuff, and we had this conference where we had workshops on education, employment, benefits, money or something something like that. 00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:02.000 And we got we put people into it workshops and we just asked them to discuss. 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:11.039 And out of that we got loads and loads of stuff, really good stuff, and that was used as a as a basis for the for the um for the centre. 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:18.319 But unfortunately, that centre, in my opinion, started out with very good intentions but didn't didn't continue. 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:26.079 But at the same time, the organization that I was originally involved in, you know, the one that I said was in the broom cupboard. 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:31.200 It was so quaint and so f and and and so raw. 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:41.279 So you know these things don't happen in big conference rooms, they happen in small conversations in the corridor or this kind of stuff. 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.039 So that had got I think they must have only had temporary funding. 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:45.920 So that went. 00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:53.200 But another another organization called uh another organization of disabled people started in the local authority. 00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:56.559 And I was a volunteer and I was involved in that as well. 00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:11.920 And I can't really remember much about what we were doing, but we were, you know, things like consulting the local authority would send us information and and we would consult on small bits and pieces, a bit like the PEP was was doing, and that kind of developed as well. 00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:15.680 And then I've been doing volunteering for all these years. 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:18.799 In between that, I also did training as well. 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:24.240 I was going to college, so I've gone to college doing volunteering and had children at home. 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:32.240 And then I moved, I applied for a job in that local authority and I got the job. 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:41.759 And then I worked in this, it was for an NHS trust, and I stayed there for maybe five years, and then I got another job, and that was the beginning of my professional career. 00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:50.079 Um and then I then I, you know, and then I'd moved out of London and moved down to Dorset where I live now. 00:27:50.160 --> 00:28:00.000 And for a long time I worked for Southampton Centre for Independent Living, which was a fantastic experience, and I I met some really wonderful people and learned a lot. 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:09.039 But between going to Southampton Centre for Independent Living, I was managing a stay centre because I was thinking I could change the world, you know, on my own.

00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:15.119 But that became a bit I did did do some good stuff, but that was you can't change the world on your own. 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:20.160 So it was it wasn't, you know, I had to be flexible and adjust. 00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:29.279 But when I came to Southampton, I'd by that time I'd done I'd developed a small consultancy of my own, as well as working, as well as going to college. 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:37.599 And I was um I was working training social workers in uh disability quality training, which I'd kind of learnt. 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:48.079 I'd also had my own tr I'd also been trained as a trainer by other disabled people that came from Southampton before I went there, and another woman. 00:28:48.319 --> 00:29:08.720 So by this time kind of the networks were beginning to spread and people were beginning to question what they actually needed to quit to equip themselves as leaders and how they could and how they could then use those skills that they gained, how they could pass those skills down to other disabled people. 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:16.400 So we there was like a system where it you were constantly mentoring, constantly passing down to the grassroots all the time. 00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:23.359 Do you think that's what's missing at the moment from from how the movement has become so segmented and lost? 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:23.759 Yeah. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:27.039 There's not that peer support and that peer learning. 00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:28.000 Most definitely. 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:38.559 I mean, I think one of the really powerful things that you said a minute ago that was really significant for me in all of it and for others that I've worked with is positive role models. 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:41.440 You know, there weren't any in the very early days. 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:46.960 So if you haven't got a positive role model, somebody to mentor you, you're gonna go off on your own, aren't you? 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:52.559 You know, you've got an inquiry mind and you want to change the world, so you're gonna go and you're gonna research and all of that. 00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:21.359 I think I think, yes, I think there needs to be a that we had we had a network of peers, and then we then there then there was a almost like an umbrella where we would all meet, all the all the all the centres for independent living, which who were you know had right on disabled people, had uh like an umbrella organization and they would meet together to network to learn from each other continually. 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:28.640 And and I think that could be why we have got the we've got the fragment you know, fragmentation that we've got now. 00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:32.880 Plus, most of it is online, and you know, online is fantastic. 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:37.759 I mean, don't get me wrong, it sets so many people free, but it's not the same. 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.599 It's not it's not the same. 00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:45.680 I don't I can't I don't know what it is about it, but it's not the same as meeting somebody physically for a coffee. 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:57.839 And the problem is you can't always when you're developing these things, these these great ideas, these changes, they happen organically when like-minded people come together. 00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:02.400 And I don't think you can always say, Oh, let's have an agenda, we're gonna talk about this. 00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:11.519 You just get people together that want to bring about change, and you just talk about how you're gonna change the world and what needs to change, and little sh little shoots come from that. 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:14.000 And you can't do that online, yeah. 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:19.519 No, you can't, like, we're gonna put you into a breakout room now, because you can't shout across as well. 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.240 You can't just do it online on the other side of the room. 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.599 I think you could do some online, but you can't do it all online. 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:26.559 Yeah, yeah. 00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:30.559 And also it's that experience of getting into the room as well. 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:44.480 So before lockdown, CDC were predominantly face-to-face because I think that that I, as well as the rest of the world, hadn't really considered virtual learning when it comes to kind of live training. 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.119 No, I'm not talking about e-learning, I'm talking about live training. 00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:50.079 And then lockdown came, and then we all went online. 00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:55.279 And then I would say that 70% of our services are now delivered online. 00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:15.119 And when I go into a physical space and deliver training or consultancy, I remember, oh my god, all of this stuff that I can bring with me to the delegates right now, live in the space, because of what I'm seeing, what I'm feeling in this atmosphere, what I've just been through to get here. 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:16.640 I can bring this all in. 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:26.640 And I think whether it's a training session or whether it's a kind of a community meeting or whatever it is, that is what's missing from a virtual space. 00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:33.839 There's no background, you kind of appear out of nowhere without any backstory of how you arrived. 00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:35.359 I hadn't thought of that. 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.599 Yeah, you know, the coffee and the chat. 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:44.559 Yeah, and the slide just didn't open the door for me, or oh my god, I fell off the curb, or maybe that's just my experience. 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:46.960 Yeah, I fell off the curb wherever I go. 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:47.920 Um but yeah. 00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:57.680 And and I think what's often underestimated for people in our community is you know, for me, one of the huge barriers is our T IT. 00:32:58.319 --> 00:32:58.640

Okay. 00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:14.000 So on the neurodivergent side, and I've and for me to even get for me to get to set up a laptop, if I haven't got support, let's face it, many disabled people are living in a world where they haven't got enough support. 00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:19.440 And if they have got support, then they've got support for the basics, like personal care. 00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:20.480 Yeah, yeah. 00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:26.720 But they haven't got support to to set up their laptop and to have a chat with friends, to prepare their agendas or whatever. 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:35.039 And so for me, setting up a laptop, I'm already I'm coming to that to the forum with all this in my head. 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:40.640 And I've got to try I've got to bring that down before I begin. 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:57.920 And and it's like and the same argument I think exists if you're coming when you if you in the stuff that you're just saying, because if you're coming to a room and you've had trouble with your train because you haven't been able to get on your train, and you've done everything possible. 00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:05.359 I mean, we work 150% harder than everyone else to do to do what the average Joe does. 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.200 I don't want to be an average Joe. 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:14.960 So so I work so much harder to to to make that happen, and often that isn't that isn't recognised. 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:20.079 So for in some ways, uh IT is accessible to us, but in other ways it isn't. 00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:20.719 Absolutely. 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:32.960 I remember at the beginning of lockdown, one of the things that people would talk about, because there's always people talking about the business case of disability inclusion, and I quite often say that that is is fundamentally ableist. 00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:37.440 Why does there need to be a business case to be inclusive of a human being? 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:43.440 But anyway, one of the business cases people were using in lockdown was oh, it's digital, so it's successful. 00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:45.039 It's dangerous to think like that. 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:52.800 It's so dangerous to think like that because the rise of technology has has compounded exclusion even more. 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:53.679 Yeah, yeah. 00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:02.239 In some ways it's a great help for me, but in other ways it's an absolute it's a huge barrier, a huge barrier. 00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:08.880 And if I haven't got the support to work that through, then then I'm gonna leave I'm gonna, you know, that's just more overwhelming. 00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:10.559 I I don't want to just focus on me. 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.320 Let's just say people like me. 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:12.719 Yeah. 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:25.840 You know, as you say, it's a huge, it's it's a huge assumption to think, you know, well, you know, if this person needs support with admin, let's just give them a

free fund them to have uh to pay for chat GPT every month. 00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:26.320 Well, no. 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:32.400 And that's not saying that these we're not saying that these technologies aren't helpful, but they're not helpful in isolation. 00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:36.559 You can't just as you're not just giving the tool and say off you go. 00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:39.280 It's about helping people, seeing the difference. 00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:44.480 I remember a blind person telling me a story about um a reasonable adjustment. 00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:52.000 Um, so he he'd requested, and the company had done a really good job at reaching out to him and saying, Are there any access requirements that you have? 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:54.000 Can we talk about reasonable adjustments for your first day? 00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:58.800 And said, Oh, I need screen reader software to be able to use the computers. 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:04.960 And so he arrived at work on his first day to find a package in a box on his desk. 00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:05.760 Yeah. 00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:14.880 Um, so it's so important, you know, that the technology is great, but only if it's helped to be implemented in the right way. 00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:15.679 Wow. 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:17.360 The way they live our life. 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:20.719 I know I'm gonna start it was a bit incredible. 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:29.440 And I use that example again in training sessions to really because I think it's a really tangible example of you have to think it through from beginning all the way to end. 00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:42.480 Yeah, and it's about I mean it's kind of we know companies are under nobody's money's tight and resources are tight, but so often these things are just about how we can connect to another human being. 00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:48.400 Just allow yourself to be vulnerable just for a little while and put yourself in that person's shoes. 00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:52.239 Don't you know, and and think, and think, how can I help? 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.280 What's gonna make this person's day just a little bit easier? 00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:58.159 Well, that is that's what it is, really, isn't it? 00:36:58.320 --> 00:36:59.119 That's all it is. 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:02.000 How can I make this person's day a bit easier? 00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:06.880 And actually, if I offer and they say no, it's not a rejection to me. 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.559 It's just, you know, that person is is able to do it themselves. 00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:13.519 And equally that applies to us as well. 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:16.960 Because you know, we mustn't say everybody can contribute. 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:18.559 It just makes the world go round. 00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:24.639 It's just makes it's it's it's it's not always about the great the great the great expression. 00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:29.440 Sometimes it's about something gentle, something more connection. 00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:44.239 I think it was a few years I heard Mick Scarlett talking, and he's a disability activist as well, about um pre-DDA, so pre-disability discrimination act, and then post-Equality Act 2010. 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:44.639 Yeah. 00:37:44.800 --> 00:38:08.320 And what he was saying is pre-1995, when the um DDA, the Disability Discrimination Act um came into place, things weren't perfect, but it felt a lot more inclusive um from his perspective, because he would rock up at, let's say, a club, and there'd be three steps to get into the club, and the security guards would say, Okay, come on, we'll lift your wheelchair and we'll help you in the club. 00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:36.880 And now you rock up to a club, and I actually remember that not the same club, but me and my friend Lorna, when we were at drama school, we used to go to this club called the Flute and Furkin, and it had four steps up, and we just rocked up and the bouncer would be like, not you again, but in like a really friendly way, and carry us in our electrical up the stairs, and then guard me while I was adamant that I was gonna dance on the table, and there was no no, you can't do that, that's dangerous. 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:59.599 Yeah, and I think that's the point that Mick was making that we have this act today, and I know there's you know, there's there's controversy around the act being brought into one, but there's a lot of good things about what the act does as well, but also it takes away from the spontaneity and the human connection, yeah, yeah, it does, and it puts people off, I think. 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:02.079 People think, oh, oh, you know, I've got to get it. 00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:03.679 It's it's difficult, isn't it? 00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:10.800 It's difficult just be accept trying to be accepting of each other and but oh, I mustn't say this, I mustn't say that because it's not politically correct. 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:15.599 Or I mustn't lift this person, I mustn't offer to do this because of health and safety legislation. 00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:19.760 You know, and that yeah, I that I can relate to that as well. 00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:23.440 But there I mean there are great things that have come out of the DDA. 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:26.320 Oh, I'm not no, I mean I was in yeah, I know. 00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:34.400 Um the DD the the the the Equality Act and the DDA were groundbreaking for their time and yeah you know to be celebrated. 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:36.639 But yeah, it's an interesting point of view. 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:50.400 It's I re you know, I remember back in the 90s, so I was born in the 80s, so back in the 90s, my first and I didn't even think of it as a negative experience at the time, but thinking back, I was like, oh my god, that was awful. 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:59.840 My first experiences of using a train were sitting in that guard's wagon because there was no either we people listening to this this episode

thinking, well, what do you mean? 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.440 But you know, there were no spaces for disabled people to sit comfortably on trains. 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:10.960 So we used to sit in that middle carriage where the guards walked through where you kept bikes and stuff. 00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:16.000 And at the time it was just what it was, but looking back, it was awful, wasn't it? 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:17.440 Yeah, it was really awful. 00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:22.400 But having said that, I remember the first time I went on the train on my own, and it was quite late. 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:23.440 It was quite late. 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:33.840 It was probably for me, I mean it was it was probably 25, maybe 30 years ago, because I had a PA that used to drive me to work, and I and one day the PA couldn't come. 00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:36.559 I thought, blow this, I'm going, I'm going, I'm getting the train. 00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:39.440 I didn't know I didn't know what I was doing. 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:44.159 And I just I just rocked up at the train station and as you say went through it all. 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:46.320 But I remember this real sense of excitement. 00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:50.400 Hey, I'm just getting on with public transport, just like everyone else does. 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:51.440 You know? 00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:55.599 Um I remember saying that to Robert, and he said, Yeah, you felt the same. 00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:59.679 And it and yeah, just to be included, that's where exclusion does. 00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:03.440 And it took me a while to sit back and think, wow, well it's nothing major. 00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:08.719 I mean, come on, you've only just you've only just uh used the train on your own. 00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:08.880 Yeah. 00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:13.199 But I don't know, there was something about being together with others, being part of the bigger picture. 00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:15.039 And I yeah, no, I agree. 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:24.159 And you know, different times for the both of us, but I do agree that you know, the first time so I went to drama school and that was exciting enough. 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:32.400 I never thought I'd get into drama school full stop, not necessarily because I was disabled, but because I was disabled and because I thought I wasn't that talented. 00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:35.280 But it turns out I was both disabled and talented. 00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:54.000 So I went to drama school and the excitement of being in the place where I only dreamt of being, but then on top of that, the excitement of just being treated like another student, because the drama school I went to had a course designed for disabled artists, um, and it was run by a disabled activist. 00:41:54.559 --> 00:42:08.000 Wow called Mandy Moore, and she was a blind lady, and so because they were used to having disabled people in the in the drama school, you went, you breathed in the direction of a door and it would open. 00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:09.760 And I just thought, that's amazing. 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:11.119 Oh my god, that's amazing. 00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:14.239 I don't need to ask anyone, nobody's telling me to be careful. 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:22.639 And then I went to the cafe on my own, and the woman behind the counter at the cafe said, Would you like me to carry it to the table? 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.280 And I was like, Oh my god, I didn't even say anything. 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:26.159 I didn't even think. 00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:33.599 And you know, I burst into tears, and when I was 19, I was embarrassed about crying, but it was just it was such a special moment. 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:38.880 Yeah, the lovely And as you say, it's it's normal, but for us it wasn't normal. 00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:41.679 Yeah, other 19-year-olds take that for granted. 00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:49.920 Something so simple is a really good example of what it feels like to be included and the impact of being of exclusion. 00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:50.400 Yeah. 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:51.039 As well. 00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:51.760 Yeah. 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:57.039 Because you come to accept, and I think the more you accept, the more you put up with. 00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:00.960 You know, you the smaller you become, the smaller you become. 00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:01.280 Yeah. 00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:02.239 Yeah, absolutely. 00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:06.559 Except begin to accept less and less, and you lose sense of who you are. 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:11.360 And you, you know, as I said, you know, you've got a right to stand in your power and be who you are. 00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:15.920 And that's I think what we what young people need to learn need to know. 00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:19.280 So if you I want to talk a bit about your art. 00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:26.079 I want to talk about what your art is, and I want to share some links to your art as well, which will be available in the show notes. 00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:39.039 But also, if you want to, um, talk a little bit about how your experiences that we've talked about so far, if they at all influ impact the art that you do today. 00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:42.000 That's really that's really interesting that you should mention that. 00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:45.440 So I attended out an art group on a monthly basis. 00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:50.320 I'm now an ambassador for a l a great organisation called Outside In. 00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:58.880 And Outside In exists to support creative artists, well, it is artists that experience barriers to the mainstream. 00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:09.280 Um And the term outside in is is uh it's been around for a long time, but I think it's now beginning to get recognition. 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:19.599 And what it actually means, originally what it actually meant was that um you're an outside artist or there's other terms, raw artists, folk art, other stuff. 00:44:19.760 -->

00:44:23.760 Um if you hadn't if you hadn't attended art college. 00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:24.159 Okay. 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:32.239 So I attend this art group on a monthly basis where I've learnt so much from other artists and I've made some great friends. 00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:46.320 And um as as one of the opportunities that are available to outside in artists is I hope this is accurate, every other year they give artists an opportunity to submit their work for a national exhibition. 00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:47.920 I submitted some of my work. 00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:53.199 I I just just thought, I'm just doing this exercise just to do it, if you know what I mean. 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:55.440 Just to be just take up the opportunity. 00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:59.679 And I was my art was selected to be at Christie's. 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:11.599 Um so I submitted my work and I had my and had uh it was submitted, it was at Christie's for maybe two weeks, and it was also in a in a gallery in the Midlands. 00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:23.840 So I'm a mixed media artist, but that means that I use lots of different mediums, so you know, different paints, pastels, pens, anything goes down on the paper. 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:31.679 Um and more recently, and I've come from nowhere, I've always been interested in art, that's what I was saying. 00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:38.800 I've always been interested in art, I've always wanted to develop it, but the opportunity just hasn't been available to me. 00:45:38.880 --> 00:46:04.960 And one of the things that I remembered when I started to go to join outside in was that when I went on the first day of my secondary school, and I was really excited about going to secondary school, they showed me round the round the school, and I opened a door, and it was an art room, huge art room, and it had everything in it, like everything, you know, silk screening, working with fabrics, textiles, all the rest. 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:07.679 And I opened the door and I said, Wow, what's that? 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:08.400 What's this? 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:10.079 And they said, This is an art room. 00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:11.840 You can go in there if you like. 00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:13.679 And I said, Can I go in there? 00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:16.320 Can I really can I can I go in there and look at the stuff? 00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:18.320 Will I get a chance to learn that? 00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:20.639 And they said, Yeah, definitely, definitely. 00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:23.280 You can go in there whenever you like outside of lessons. 00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:25.039 Wow, I'm really excited. 00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.800 Three weeks later, I discovered that they got rid of the art room. 00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:32.800 No, they got rid of the art room and turned it into a physiotherapy unit. 00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:33.679 Oh my god. 00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:34.159 Yeah. 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:37.440 And I I remember it was like this thud. 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:38.800 It was just wow. 00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:44.320 And they also had a science lab, and I was really excited about that as well. 00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:47.599 And then they got rid of the science lab around the same time too. 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:50.400 That's medical model in practice, isn't it? 00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:50.639 Yeah. 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.199 And I was so brokenhearted. 00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:57.599 I was just so sad because you know, I was like twelve, eleven, twelve. 00:46:57.840 --> 00:46:58.000 Yeah. 00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:04.320 I knew that I wanted I I didn't know how, I didn't know, but I knew there was something about art that I loved. 00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:09.519 So go when I started without Sardine, I I had no experience, none whatsoever. 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:14.000 You know, I'd say things like I drew this picture, but it was absolutely rubbish, and I bind it. 00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:17.039 And the teacher was saying, Don't talk about your art like that, Bernie. 00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:19.599 It was which is right, which is correct. 00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:23.119 I'd say the same to the to a new person coming up now. 00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:25.519 I'm uh I'm still a new person coming up. 00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:25.920 Yeah. 00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:27.599 So I do mixed media art. 00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:33.280 But more recently I've I've I've done I I've done something yesterday and it's all very abstract what I do. 00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:43.679 And uh I thought, you know, I'm gonna try I've been thinking throughout this whole process, I want to try and find a way of representing my experience as as a disabled person in my art. 00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:52.639 And it's just starting to I think it there's very small beginnings, but I don't want to say too much about that in case I because it doesn't happen. 00:47:52.960 --> 00:48:04.400 Can you talk about how you think that your experiences as a disabled person politically and otherwise have contributed to to kind of the art that you do or influenced? 00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:08.559 I think it's interesting that the art I'm into is very is very layered. 00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:10.559 There's lots of layers to it. 00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:13.119 There seems to be lots of by that I mean depth. 00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:27.039 That's um I mean the art the piece of art that I actually the piece of art that I submitted to the exhibition was about neurodiversity and I didn't realise it until after until about I just did it and I didn't realise it what it was about. 00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:37.280 I woke up in the middle of the night and had this epiphany that it was this is the piece of art that you're gonna submit and did you know this piece of art was about your narrow diverse and brain? 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.480 And honestly that's true, and I didn't, so I got up. 00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:43.840 So I have kind of made the headways to it before. 00:48:44.079

--> 00:48:48.960 But I did something yesterday and a a quirky person in a wheelchair seemed to emerge. 00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:52.000 I would they such a difficult question to answer. 00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:55.280 Well, it might not be They've shaped me into who I am. 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:59.519 I mean, I wouldn't change that part of my life at all, you know. 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:05.199 They've they've opened my eyes to different opportunities, they've met great people. 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:15.119 Um I always try and listen to other point you know, although I have uh ideas, I like to listen to uh the other point of view, the other opinion. 00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:18.800 So I've had opportunities to debate that, to better understand that. 00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:24.719 I've had it's given me work with fantastic people and fun and travel. 00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:31.920 I mean I've travelled as well with and I've done all of I've done that with disabled people, we've kind of rubbed along together and we've had such good fun. 00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:35.280 Despite all the barriers, we've found ways of overcoming them together. 00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:38.559 And I those other people, they've they've showed me the way. 00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:40.079 They've showed me the way. 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:43.840 I mean, I I'm very fond of that saying we stand on the shoulder of giants. 00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:45.440 And we really, really do. 00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:51.840 The people that I met, the people that I've met along the journey, they're people that did it before I was doing it. 00:49:51.920 --> 00:50:02.239 And their experiences were different than mine, and that's tested my thinking and challenged me and helped me to kind of find ways round the bend of doing things. 00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:15.039 There's not one way, there's lots of different ways, but there are certain principles that you need to stick to but I believe, you know, treating people with respect, believing in equality, that you know, and all of those things. 00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:18.239 And difference is to be celebrated no matter what. 00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:20.719 And it's and and I mean difference in everything. 00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:33.599 I mean the the current debate is horrif some of the stuff that's going on, it's not even debate, it's not even it's single-minded thinking from becoming from the wrong place, is is quite frightening, and I try not to listen to it. 00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:37.840 But we always have to think we think out of the box, and they taught me all of that. 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:46.719 I mean, I came with the capacity to be able to do that, but it they helped me to develop who I am, and you know, that state and that's where I am today. 00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:48.000 I still keep in touch. 00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:50.559 I'm still I'm a reluctant follower of politics. 00:50:50.719 --> 00:51:02.239 I try and minimise it because it makes me sad, and I think of all the things that the movement achieved and all the great things that that right on people out there are still doing, but there's so much against us now. 00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:10.800 It feels like we're going backwards, you know, with the with some of the attitudes, narrow-minded thinking and bigotry that we're hearing, you know. 00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:13.760 But we've got to we've have to keep pushing forward. 00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:16.000 We have to do it together, you know. 00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:24.960 We have to be one voice, and we have to remember that all that that there were people that did it before us, and we have to look to them as the pattern. 00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:29.039 They are the pattern they can show us, and we have to be open to that. 00:51:29.199 --> 00:51:31.519 That's what it that's what the movement is giving me. 00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:34.960 We have two groups of listeners to this podcast. 00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:51.360 One group of disabled people themselves, and another group are leaders within companies leading on in quality and inclusion in their businesses and influencing not only internally but externally as well. 00:51:51.519 --> 00:52:07.199 Um so not asking you a big question or anything, but but if there was anything you would say to people um to either develop community, continue the movement and continue kind of keep the faith, um, what would it be? 00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:16.079 I think that the being human thing and putting yourself in in other in another's shoes is is really quite significant in as many things as possible. 00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:18.000 And and avoid tokenism. 00:52:18.079 --> 00:52:24.559 I mean putting a box on a table, maybe maybe for somebody that doesn't even can't see the box, I'm assuming. 00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:25.119 Mm-hmm. 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:44.079 Maybe can't open the box, can't set the system up without as the organisations and projects that I've been I've been privileged to work in and be part of the movements and stuff, have always managed on nothing, you know, and it's so much harder now. 00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:46.000 So I'm talking about resources. 00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:56.880 So I think if companies could look at what resources they have and really examine those resources in the context of inclusion, it doesn't have to be about money, you know. 00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:13.119 But but but if you have got a little bit of money, then look at what you can do with that money to make a difference and co-produce that with the communities that you're going to co-produce that with the communities that identify your community that you want to work with. 00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:15.599 You know, is it disabled people or whatever? 00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:21.199 I mean, I'm talking about disabled people, but if it's disabled people, be broad in your thinking. 00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:25.280 Do not just get into this thing of disabled people are just wheelchair users. 00:53:25.440 -->

00:53:29.920 It's not only about disabled people that have obvious impairments that you can see. 00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:32.960 You know, there are what about people with mental health impairments? 00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:35.039 What about people with visual impairments? 00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:36.239 All sorts of things. 00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:51.440 So be broad in your thinking, identify what you want to do, be broad with your in your thinking and co-produce that essential, essential stuff doing with the people that you're hoping hoping to offer that to. 00:53:51.599 --> 00:54:05.760 I remember years ago I was I was successful in getting a um a a bursary to support my business, and I was funded and I applied for this and I got it. 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:14.960 And it was offered by a very big corporation, and it was a wonderful opportunity, but it wasn't well thought through. 00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:20.400 And it wasn't because it wasn't co-produced with the people that you're offering that to. 00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:22.559 So that's my fur that would be my first one. 00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:29.119 So if you've got a little bit of money, think about what you can do and think about who you're going to do it with, but co-produce there. 00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:34.960 And the second one I would every whenever always put yourself in another person's shoes. 00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:35.840 Be human. 00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:42.960 Don't be don't be frightened to allow yourself to be vulnerable, to be vulnerable, because we live in a vulnerable world all the time. 00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:45.119 I feel vulnerable when I can't get on the train. 00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:51.760 I think I've been with you and you can't get on the train and and because and you've done everything you can to book that train and organise yourself. 00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:55.360 And that takes you as far more time than it does everybody else. 00:54:55.519 --> 00:54:57.280 So just remember things like that. 00:54:57.440 --> 00:55:01.760 Because if you're real as a person, then you're gonna make good connections with others. 00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:03.679 That's what that's why Brilliant. 00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:04.719 I have nothing to add. 00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:08.239 Um is there any we're coming to the end of our episode today. 00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:10.639 Is there anything else you would like to share? 00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:16.719 No, I think I think I've I think I've I think I've covered most most things. 00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:19.039 I can't think of anything else. 00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:21.840 It's been nice to talk about my art, thank you. 00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:24.320 Because that's really why where I'm at these days. 00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:26.800 Anybody can join outside in. 00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:29.039 Uh it's open and it's free to join. 00:55:29.199 --> 00:55:35.760 If you're if you're inter if you're an artist, um, you know, just the person who wants to move forward with your art. 00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.360 Or anybody from from any of these marginalized communities. 00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:47.679 Yeah, it's not, it's for people that uh uh for people that um experience uh uh disadvantaged communities. 00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:53.760 So it could be carers as well, it could be uh substance misuse, it can be any any of those groups. 00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:55.679 So yeah, thanks for pointing that out. 00:55:56.000 --> 00:55:56.400 Amazing. 00:55:56.559 --> 00:55:57.840 Thanks so much, Bernie. 00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:00.639 We will put a link to Bernie's Art. 00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:04.239 Can I put a link to the art and can people access your art online? 00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:06.480 Yeah, they can they can look at my platform. 00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:07.360 I okay. 00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:13.360 We will put a link to Bernie's Art and also to Outside In in the show notes as well. 00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:16.880 Yeah, and I'll just say that my platform is work in progress. 00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:18.880 Okay, she'll hear you. 00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:24.960 Just want to say thank you so much for um coming along to talk to me today on the Equality Edit. 00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:26.480 I've really enjoyed this conversation. 00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:27.679 Yeah, thank you. 00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:32.639 Thanks everybody for tuning in, watching or listening, or however. 00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:39.199 So if you would like to get in touch and tell us what you think, please add it into the comments and we will read it. 00:56:39.280 --> 00:56:42.960 Um and we look forward to seeing you again for another episode really soon. 00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:43.920 Bye everyone. 00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:52.400 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like, subscribe, and press the notification button so you don't miss anything. 00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:57.760 If you're watching on Spotify, give us a five star rating.