Ep 99 Best bits series: Better decisions in an era of continuous pressure의 전체 녹취록

that we experience as being a state or whether it's a trait. 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:30.800 It'll be really interesting to talk to you, Angela Robert, and ask you about whether maybe you might experience uh procrastination yourself. 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:33.360 So before we do, let's get to the track. 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:34.240 Absolutely. 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:35.599 This is episode eight. 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:36.960 Be decisive. 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:59.919 We procrastinate because we tell ourselves that if we were to wait, we might have more information, we might be less tired, we might be more mentally focused, we might be more ready, or might be a stronger version of ourselves and therefore in a better, fitter place to actually make the decision. 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:11.599 And so we justify the delay and we postpone the decision even though we know that there will be a negative consequence of doing so. 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:16.000 And very often it's unnecessary to delay the decision. 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:23.680 Very often we have all the information that we need or that is available, and we should just commit to that decision. 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:24.960 Yeah, I think that's right. 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:36.240 I mean, I remember when I was at school, I was one of the people that used to receive your homework to be done over the school holidays, and I used to not do it, wait and wait until the last minute. 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.319 And it hung over me for the entire two weeks of the whole day. 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:42.000 But I still had to do it at the end. 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:50.240 Whereas if I'd have actually done it at the beginning, I'd have still done exactly the same amount of work, but had two weeks of not having to worry about it. 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:56.479 Now, procrastination for me has been pretty much a lifetime uh trait. 00:03:57.039 --> 00:03:58.400 What about you, Christian? 00:03:58.560 --> 00:03:59.840 Are you a procrastinator? 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:02.560 Procrastination, uh absolutely never. 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:04.000 No, on a serious no. 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.159 Well, yeah, I knew you were gonna say never. 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:08.960 Yeah, I can fall victim to procrastination. 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:09.759 Yeah, absolutely. 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:10.560 The same with it. 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:18.560 Tim mentions just there on the clip that yeah, he left things to the last minute, knowing that it'd be a lot less stressful and more productive if he didn't. 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:27.279 I know that a lot of the time it'll be good for me to start things earlier, tasks that I kind of feel like they're sort of hanging over me like a shadow. 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:31.279 And I suppose for me it's about emotional regulation when I think about it. 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:37.199 So when there's a task that I might put off, there's an anxiety, I think, about failing. 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.199 Maybe I might not know how to start. 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.839 It feels a bit um daunting. 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:48.319 So I suppose my brain is in some ways taking the quickest available route to kind of giving me some relief. 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:50.800 And for me, that can sometimes be avoidance. 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:52.079 What about yourself? 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:58.879 Um, I definitely procrastinate, but I don't, it's definitely not over sort of fear of failure. 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:01.360 I'm not much of a perfectionist. 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:07.040 I like to do things well, but I also am not a like naturally reflective person. 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:11.120 I'm not a person who's gonna sit there and like revisit that over and over and over and over. 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:20.000 I have to do like one good pass and some secondary refinement, but not like refining, refining, refining, usually. 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:28.000 So if I think about why do I procrastinate, it's probably somewhere around the risk factor of it. 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:33.040 I have quite a high risk tolerance according to my decision styles profile. 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:38.160 I think I need a little bit of that positive pressure to force action. 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:43.839 If I feel like I've got plenty of time, I will always find something else that needs doing now. 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.560 And then yeah, for me, I think that's what it is. 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:56.240 So, in some ways, the urgencies sort of create a bit of adrenaline, which then mobilizes you a bit and kind of gets you off your seat and into action. 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:57.360 I think so, yeah. 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:02.399 I mean, it feels good to get things done early and have it ready to go, right? 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:07.439 Like Tim's example of the homework and having two weeks of not having to think about it. 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:14.879 But that doesn't feel good enough to me, I guess, to prompt me to do it early on many occasions. 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:20.160 And when I do get things done early like that, I honestly just forget that I've done them already. 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:29.199 So then the whatever the deadline is will come up and I'll I'll actually have that last-minute sort of panic jump where it's like, oh, I need to get that done. 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.319 And then, oh yeah, I did that two weeks ago, you know. 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:33.839 Yeah, I know what you mean. 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:44.160 And sometimes the avoiding, for me anyway, avoiding doing the thing and doing the task feels really comforting if I push it to the back of my mind in the short term. 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:50.560 But yeah, I think over the years I've realized that I kind of can create in my mind a bit more urgency. 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:57.040 And I think I kind of almost time travel to that situation how painful it might be if I've left it to the last

minute. 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:04.160 And that's kind of been quite effective in helping my brain create some more urgency so that I don't procrastinate. 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:10.639 So I'm almost like I'm traveling into the future and visualizing how it's going to be uncomfortable for me if I leave it to the very, very last minute. 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.920 Doesn't always work, but it's a strategy to help. 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:19.680 I've definitely got to employ more strategies like that, especially around like household tasks and stuff. 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:26.959 I always procrastinate on those, and then I find it piles up and I'm stressed about it when I really could have just been doing it, you know. 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:31.279 So the next clip, it's actually part of that same episode, isn't it, Christian? 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:32.079 It is, yeah. 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:33.519 So it's still episode eight. 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:40.720 And we talk a bit more about some of the potential traits linked to procrastination or our tendency to procrastinate. 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:43.199 What are the drivers of procrastination? 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:48.720 Okay, we've got these um slow decision makers, these bottleneck makers. 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:54.560 Are there particular traits that we can identify in these people that can identify them as procrastinators? 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:56.879 You know, can we spot them from afar? 00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:57.839 We can. 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:02.879 So, in fact, we've started to describe the first one, which is perfectionists. 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:14.399 So people who fear failure and they are perfectionists, they can find it difficult to start or commit to a decision until all of the circumstances are perfect. 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:25.920 And so if you hear a client say, I can't let go of it until it's completely ready, or I cannot commit to a decision until I have all of the facts, they are probably a perfectionist. 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:27.360 Have you got any examples of that? 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.000 We do we always like a good example in these podcasts. 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:45.279 I'm working with a client who is managing a significant sale of a business, and they've been going through the last stages of the data gathering phase since they've agreed to sell to their buyer. 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:56.399 And at every day, every step, the buyer wants more information, and they're unable to say that's it, that's enough, that they have sufficient evidence. 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:14.960 Now, my client is 90 to 95% certain that the sale will go through, but what he can see is a really good example of collaborative procrastination where the buyers are constantly asking for more and more information, even though a decision to buy the company has already been made. 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:23.840 They want to minimize the risk and they're just not able to really make that final commitment and they're struggling to make the decisions. 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:25.759 And that's down to perfectionism. 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.000 Yes, that can be down to perfectionism, or it can be down to a fear of failure. 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:32.240 Are we going to head for a nice list here? 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:36.480 Have you got a list of things that we can talk about that uh why people procrastinate? 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:37.279 Indeed. 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:38.240 I like a list. 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:44.320 So the second one is that people who procrastinate are often dreamers rather than doers. 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:59.440 Because they want everything to work out beautifully and they would like the decision often to change their life or their team's life or their clients or customers, they don't start the activity or make the decision until they get everything aligned. 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:06.639 And by stalling the decision, they can keep that ideal vision of the perfect outcome in their mind. 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:11.919 So, I mean, both those initial two things that you've said, they both seem to come from a good place. 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:18.240 They're the the people are perfectionists, which you know can be in certain circumstances a good thing. 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:21.440 They're dreamers, they want the ideal thing to happen. 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:22.799 That all sounds good, doesn't it? 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:29.200 So it's not necessary to say that somebody who's a procrastinator is somebody who's a poor performer or not capable. 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:30.639 No, completely. 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.039 Yeah, the dreamer versus the doer, Angela. 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.240 Had you heard those labels before in that distinction? 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:41.759 Um, possibly somewhere, but it's a nice, succinct little way of framing it. 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:42.879 What are you, Krishna? 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:44.480 Are you a dreamer or a doer? 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:50.559 You know, I mean, how many people are actually going to be happy to say that they're dreamers and not doers? 00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:55.519 You know, let's let's be honest, you know, especially if you're asking this in a corporate environment. 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:59.440 But if I'm honest, I'm a dreamer quite a lot of the time. 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:16.559 In certain situations, then I've got better at than just getting on and doing things because I know the default might be to not necessarily be a perfectionist and just try and find the ideal vision, but I know my bias can sometimes be keeping options open. 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.519 You know, it feels comfortable to have the possibilities, right? 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:25.919 We can be sometimes addicted to, or I can be in the past, addicted to the possibilities of doing things. 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.879 You know, it feels good to know that you could do this and it could do

that. 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:34.799 Those doors are still open, but actually I've learned to be more comfortable with closing some options. 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:36.879 We know there's a paradox of choice, right? 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:42.399 So now I've become better at doing the doing, but um, yeah, I've still have my moments of dreaming. 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:44.240 And I used to daydream a lot at school. 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:45.679 So maybe it comes from that. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:58.240 It's interesting to me that you sort of connected being a dreamer to something maybe that you wouldn't want to admit at work, but I think a workplace needs both types of thinkers, right? 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:00.799 So I'm definitely not a dreamer. 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:04.480 I have never been much of a daydreamer kind of person. 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:10.159 I'm 100% a doer, but that also means I don't really like to sit there and like think about it too hard. 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:12.960 I just like to do it, make the decision and go. 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:20.240 You do need to pause and think about things sometimes, or you know, take the time to bring people on the journey with you. 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:23.919 So there is real value in being a dreamer sometimes. 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.879 Well, it again it shifts by the context, doesn't it? 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:34.320 So there might be many of our listeners who think, yeah, actually, in that context situation, maybe outside of work, I'm a dreamer. 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:39.759 But actually, in this context, when I'm doing my job potentially, then I kind of activate the doer. 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:44.399 But I think we have a preference or a default to an extent on one of these. 00:12:44.720 --> 00:13:14.559 The next episode, we kind of jump forward in time a little bit to uh really interesting concept and actually something that when we notice in organizations, I certainly have, when decision making or the judgment process hasn't necessarily led to financial success, or when companies or teams have been maybe investing in certain decisions, making certain judgments because they've done it before in the past, and it can be sometimes difficult to change tech. 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:18.159 So we talk about sunk cost fallacy and the fear of failure. 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.080 This is episode 53. 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:23.519 So, what is this thing called the sunk cost fallacy? 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:38.159 So, sunk cost is a cognitive bias that occurs when people continue to invest in a decision or a project, even though the evidence suggests that the investments are no longer rational or beneficial and that we should actually stop. 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:40.639 Yeah, I may have done that myself once or twice. 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:42.080 Um, where does it come from? 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:43.840 It's basically a bias. 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:56.399 We're driven by the need to avoid loss,

and we have a fear of failure that's incredibly powerful that drives us to continue with something that we should probably stop and admit isn't working. 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:59.759 And that could be time, it could be money, it could be effort. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.320 Something that we invest in in some way. 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:10.639 So, in other words, it's when we let our past investments influence our decisions about future actions, particularly if they are sinking. 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:11.120 Yeah. 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:18.720 And as I say, it's not just about money, it's relationships too, or it's anything that you invest time, money, effort into. 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:22.639 So sunk cost, have you experienced it yourself? 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:24.720 Have you seen it in action? 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:27.759 Um, yes, I've experienced it myself. 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:31.840 I kind of feel like it's one of those human condition type scenarios, isn't it? 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:36.879 I think everyone has experienced it at some point where they just feel like I'm gambling is a great example. 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:39.600 You've put so much down and you're kind of in it. 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:46.639 And really, if you're looking at the data, just the cold hard facts, it might be the right time to step away. 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:55.519 But you kind of still hang on to the idea that you know you've put this much down, you could just a little bit longer, it just might make the difference. 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:59.840 I'm really guilty of that, I think, in relationships. 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:06.399 So in a business context, I might see some potential in a business relationship. 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:12.399 And I will like sort of chase that conversation much longer than maybe I should. 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:25.600 And I actually am having to like sort of think about strategies to disengage from a potential relationship that actually isn't going anywhere because I will just keep kind of holding on to hope. 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:33.039 And the longer I spend on it, the less willing I am to kind of drop it then because it feels like I've put so much into it now. 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.159 So that would be my business scenario example for myself. 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:39.200 That's a great example, especially with business development. 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:47.200 I know when I was a consultant, I can totally see what you mean, which is why some of the best salespeople actively try and get a no, don't they? 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:59.360 Obviously, sometimes so that there's that more certainty and they're not spending months or years trying to uh hold up hope for a lead or a prospect or an opportunity that is not really ready to say yes. 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.559 Of course, then we also know the power of the follow-up as well. 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.480 So yeah, things do come back. 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:05.440 Yeah,

definitely. 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:17.600 And I can also see a scenario where, you know, a business has invested in building a new platform or something, and then for whatever reason, it the feedback is not what they would have hoped. 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:30.720 And because so much was invested into this project being a success, that kind of just trying to tweak around the edges when maybe it's time to just call that and say total radical shift in direction. 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:40.000 I think when the option is not tweaking, but actually saying, No, I have to stop, I think that's when sunk cost probably comes in more often, right? 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:46.559 Because, like you said, closing doors on options and not leaving things open, there's a finality to that, isn't it? 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:48.879 And then it really is like, was that all a waste? 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:49.919 Yeah, absolutely. 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:55.120 And it's about sometimes not wanting to admit the, I suppose the earlier decision was wrong. 00:16:55.200 --> 00:17:03.519 And I think sunk cost can feel more painful when your ego is attached, yeah, which it can often be to the original choice that you made. 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.839 And it's not just the resources and the time and the energy, even though those are big things as well. 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:17.039 I wonder though, in my first example around the relationship thing, for me, I don't feel like it's an ego thing, it's not an admitting failure thing. 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:27.039 I wonder if it's just like being the ever optimist or something and not wanting to relinquish hope that a good outcome will come, but you know, interesting anyway. 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.240 We'll do a coaching podcast and we can explore that. 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:31.519 Exactly. 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:35.680 Okay, so the next clip is actually from the same episode, isn't it? 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:38.720 It's Amanda's take on sunk cost. 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:45.039 Yeah, let's see whether Amanda agrees with some of our points and and feelings about sunk cost. 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:57.279 It's really very much about not wanting to admit at that point that you've lost the previous time, the previous investment of money, energy, or emotion if it's a relationship as well. 00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:59.200 So it could be in relationships too. 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:05.440 So people don't want to admit loss, they don't want to admit something has failed, but they don't want to be wasteful. 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:09.200 So if we think about food, and they care about saving face. 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:14.880 So that one was particularly relevant for me in saying a product, I'm going to take that product off the market. 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.960 I worried about what other people would think about me or my capability. 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.720 And we worry about other people's opinions too much, I think. 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:31.039 So that saving face and ego piece that you just mentioned, Christian, is actually very important with some cost, worrying about what other people think. 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:36.640 If I keep investing, they'll think it's all okay and they won't judge us for my actions. 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:44.240 Yeah, that makes sense, particularly in a world where a lot of our businesses and marketing efforts are more noticeable, you know, through social media. 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:45.680 Everyone can see what everyone does. 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:47.759 Those of us who are on social media, of course. 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:48.559 Absolutely. 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:50.160 So what should they do? 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:52.400 The sensible decision is to stop. 00:18:52.559 --> 00:19:00.960 Stop investing time, energy, money, emotions into relationships, whatever it is, and put your resources into something that is more promising. 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:10.400 But the brain tells you that there is an emotional attachment to what you have been doing, and therefore it makes it really difficult to detach. 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.359 But actually, that's the thing that we need to do. 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:15.759 So difficult but possible by the sense of it. 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:16.480 Absolutely. 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.680 Recognizing, of course, is going to be absolutely key. 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:22.079 Those lovely dulcet tones again. 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:23.119 Oh yeah. 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:30.160 But uh yeah, this made me think about our strategies to resolve this cognitive dissonance. 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.680 So actually, going back to sunk costs, I suppose that's a way, isn't it? 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.319 It's a strategy of resolving the discomfort. 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:43.839 You know, if we think of cognitive dissonance is the discomfort of holding these two different beliefs, inconsistent beliefs that don't match. 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:46.640 Sunk cost is you're reducing dissonance. 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:57.519 So, you know, if I've put five years into something or a decision, so I'm going to carry on doing it, that resolves the discomfort of maybe that grim realization that it was the wrong path, for example. 00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:59.200 So we double down, don't we? 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:09.200 Much easier than actually updating the belief or changing our beliefs, which is harder probably to do than some of these strategies of, yeah, let's keep on doing it. 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:09.680 Yeah. 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:11.279 And I like Amanda's advice. 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:12.000 Just stop. 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:12.720 Just stop. 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:13.680 Easy as that. 00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:14.799 Absolutely. 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.319 We've talked about some of the barriers, haven't we, to decision making. 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:19.279 Sunk cost. 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:27.839 I mentioned some of the

things that make decision making potentially difficult or how we procrastinate, the concept of cognitive dissonance. 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:29.119 But what's going on in the brain? 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:40.240 You know, we had some really interesting podcasts where we talk about what's happening in the brain and the neurochemistry of decisions in terms of dopamine and epinephrine. 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:50.720 So this episode is episode 50, and it talks about uh really key neurotransmitters in terms of reward and motivation and their part to play in decision making. 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:51.680 Absolutely. 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:55.200 This is episode 15, neurochemistry of decisions. 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:06.160 I am now really interested actually to hear a little bit more around what is actually going on inside us, inside our brains, with our chemicals when it comes to decision making. 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:09.200 So could you please talk us through the neuroscience? 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:11.039 It's quite simple, actually. 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.839 Most people want to be more decisive, and most of us want to avoid being a procrastinator. 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:27.039 So we need to have more self-control and we need to be motivated and we need to make sure that there's a clear reward mechanism for decision making from a neuroscientific perspective. 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:38.240 And how we do this is through our dopamine system because high levels of dopamine can increase our goal focus and can reduce our levels of procrastination. 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:49.119 Dopamine is the reward chemical, and problems can arise when we do not have enough dopamine and therefore procrastination can actually happen. 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:51.599 Because low dopamine can be a real issue. 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.720 The research has shown that we release a little bit of dopamine before making a decision. 00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.759 And it's the signal that we are going to get some. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.640 Pleasure from completing a task and it impacts our ability to make that decision. 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:10.000 So by increasing our dopamine levels, it can impact our decision making. 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:14.640 But we don't want too much of it because otherwise it can reduce our levels of sensitivity. 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:19.920 But we need enough that actually we're motivated and we're going to get that sense of reward. 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:36.559 So people who are too low in terms of their dopamine and they don't necessarily write lists or think about the expected outcomes enough or think about the opportunity and what the reward might be, are not going to be signalling to the brain to be releasing that dopamine. 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:41.920 So in other words, we need to get excited about the outcome in order to be motivated to make the decision. 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:46.160 And if we do that, then we're going to release a bit of dopamine that really motivates us to do so. 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:56.720 The other one, because there is another reason why people might hold back from making decisions, and that's something called epinephrine, which comes from the fight or flight response. 00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:00.160 And some people will procrastinate on purpose. 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:06.160 They will hold back from making decisions so that they can perform better when they approach a deadline. 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:13.599 And I worked with somebody back in my Towers Perrin days, the Towers Perrin is now Willis Towers Watson. 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:18.000 And she and I could not have been more different because I'm risk averse and planned. 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.279 I used to finish my work two weeks before the deadline. 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:32.400 And then literally the day before, the night before, overnight, she would stay in the building rewriting everything that I would have done and completed and I was quite happy with two weeks before. 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.119 And she used to really enjoy the pressure. 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:37.839 She used to say it made it more focused, more creative. 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:43.440 And that was because she was tapping into her epinephrine system, which sets her up for fight or flight. 00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:46.000 And this translates into a desire for action. 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:48.799 And the effect for her was incredibly strong. 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:55.519 And it did actually create incredible outcomes, but it created so much pain for everybody around her. 00:23:55.920 --> 00:24:02.319 And she would be stuck and would find it really difficult to get started until the epinephrine system kicked in. 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.880 But for me, I was done and dusted two weeks before. 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.920 The irritating thing is that she always improved everything that I built. 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:10.400 Of course she did, otherwise it wouldn't have happened. 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.559 And she was an incredible consultant, an incredible thinker. 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:19.200 But it took the epinephrine system to kick in for it to really work for her. 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:21.119 Really interesting one there. 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:27.839 I know people experiencing a lot of stress for whatever reason, uh, when they've got lots of cortisol in the system. 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:34.400 I know that there's a research, isn't there, to say that that can impair sort of your prefrontal function and so how you think. 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:50.799 So when we really need to weigh up options to analyze biases and maybe to do forward thinking and planning and more critical judgment, then at least for me, I can certainly get things done and I'm really sort of mobilized when I've got that fight or flight thing going on for me. 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:58.319 But I think if I'm under stress and that's sort of a chronic thing,

then I know that's no good for the quality of my thinking and decision making. 00:24:58.559 --> 00:24:59.680 What about you, Angela? 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:09.839 Um, I I tend to perform well under stress, but you make a good point about chronic stress and chronically high cortisol. 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:21.680 So I would say when there's a balance and I've only got the cortisol hits like in one part of my life, that can be quite a good sort of you stress, right? 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:27.519 Where I'm focused, I'm being productive, and I'm absolutely not procrastinating, right? 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:36.000 But if I've got it coming from all sides, then yeah, potentially not very healthy for me or for anyone around me. 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:44.079 I thought it was quite funny when Amanda said, you know, it created a lot of pain for everyone around this person when she procrastinated like that. 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:46.799 And it's sort of like I can see that. 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:59.119 And at the same time, it's hard to go against the grain if that's kind of your natural state, or if you, for whatever reason, are struggling to be outcome-focused and get the dopamine of the outcome. 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:02.880 I wouldn't say that I'm a hundred percent one way or another if I think about it. 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:04.160 I like to make a list. 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.519 Making lists gives me dopamine, knocking them off the list. 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:17.200 But I think if I don't do that initial, like just get started with it, it will end up sitting until the last minute, and then it will be that stress, the deadline pressure that pushes me into action. 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:18.480 Yeah, totally. 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:20.000 What about you, Christian? 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.759 Are you a dopamine er or an epinephriner? 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:25.119 You know what? 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.319 I think I'm about 50% of both a lot of the time. 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:30.240 I need the carrot and the stick. 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:44.960 I think as I mentioned before, I've learned that instead of wasting time on sometimes spending too long on thinking about the options and being the dreamer, as Amanda says in that clip, getting excited about the outcome. 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:59.680 So how good I'm gonna feel once I've achieved that piece of work or when people are happy with the outcome and the fact that I'm not gonna be stressing people out when they're waiting for me to complete it, making that really compelling in my mind actually helps a lot. 00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:01.119 So I suppose that's the carrot. 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:05.519 Those are the things that can motivate me to do those things and start to create action. 00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:18.319 But then also as the same thing, you know, I could also visualize and get really clear on what the pain will be if I leave it to the very last minute, because I know that I can sometimes default to sort of deliberation. 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:20.559 So yeah, a bit of both, I would say. 00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:21.200 Good. 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:27.440 Well, the next clip that we're focused on is around leadership and decision making. 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:34.319 It's about diversity and decision-making styles and how that is really the key to organizational success. 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:40.319 You certainly have a lot of experience talking with leadership teams about decision styles, don't you, Christian? 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:41.839 Yeah, I I do. 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:53.680 And particularly the conversations in the last few months I've noticed are increasingly about the importance of knowing what an individual's personal decision-making style is. 00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:59.200 So what they will default to, whether that's being instinctive or intuitive or being very deliberate. 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:03.920 I think most people haven't already an idea of that anyway, without doing a test or an assessment. 00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:33.039 But actually, when you're coaching somebody or using an assessment, for example, really exploring their decision styles can make a massive impact because they get a greater awareness of under pressure or under stress, under the huge amount of pace and uncertainty that most people are going through in organizations at the moment, those decision styles or preferences or default behaviors, they're going to double down more than they would anyway, under stress or under pressure, because there are mental shortcuts. 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:45.279 So actually, having conversations about how do you prefer to make decisions naturally, I think is really key here before we can even start to think about okay, how can I adapt or change the way I make decisions and be more adaptive and flexible. 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:49.519 So the next clip that we'd like to play is from episode 91. 00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:55.519 So relatively recent episode where we talked about what decisive leadership actually means. 00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:00.880 Because there can be a misconception that being decisive means being quick, being fast. 00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:03.920 But actually, there's something more, and that's about clarity. 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:05.039 Absolutely. 00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:09.839 This is episode 91 why decisive leadership demands clarity, not speed. 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:13.440 And I believe it was featuring Mark Herbert in that episode. 00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:16.880 Well, I think a lot of people confuse decisiveness with rushing. 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:22.720 So people will, I think, rightly say a great skill of good leadership is being decisive in decisions. 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.960 But I think a wrong assumption is to assume decisive means instinctive and quick. 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:35.119 I think decisive means being really, really clear on what the core of the issue is and on what the

criteria are that we're using to make the decision. 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:36.640 And when we make it, we make it. 00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:40.240 And then we buy into it and we bring people on the journey. 00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:42.160 Indecision is the opposite of that. 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:51.519 It's not having any clarity, it's flip-flopping around different ideas, it's being easily persuaded by false arguments or by power of personality. 00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:54.400 We need to be decisive because we have to operate a pace. 00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:59.759 And we all would say we probably have limited resource, time, money, bandwidth, headspace. 00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:01.920 We need to learn to be more decisive. 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:06.400 And because things change so quickly, by the time we've discussed an issue, things have moved on. 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:17.920 So I think that the skill is clarity, some of which comes quickly, and some of which is let's actually slow down our decision making to make it more rigorous, we'll probably then make a better decision. 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:19.839 Yeah, I love that, Angelo. 00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:29.200 Don't know what you think about that point about decisive, not necessarily meaning quick, but I think a decisive person could take a long time gathering information and still be decisive. 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:33.759 It's about not getting in that loop, isn't it, of indecision and reevaluating constantly. 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:41.440 Yeah, and I was just thinking as I was listening to that, it was reminding me of the work I've been doing recently with one of our colleagues. 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:51.200 And her approach to the creation of this document was really to, I am such a doer that I will just be like, let's dive in, let's make decisions as we go. 00:30:51.519 --> 00:31:03.519 And she was like, hold on, we need to like just reel it back in and make a clear structure on like what are we doing and why are we doing it and what's gonna go in here and what's not gonna go in here. 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:10.799 And it was a much slower process than I would prefer usually to work at, but I actually really enjoyed the clarity. 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.000 And that is what it was. 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:21.680 It was clarity, and it was a kind of clarity I feel quite comfortable not having going into projects a lot of times, that actually having it, it's very, very nice. 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:33.440 So um, yeah, that's what I was thinking about there, that clarity doesn't necessarily mean working slowly, but it definitely does mean that you do have to kind of stop and make sure that you're clear. 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:34.960 So yeah, interesting. 00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:36.160 I totally agree. 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:42.559 And I think speed for me is about how much time and process you put in before you get there. 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:44.559 So someone can be fast, can't they? 00:31:44.640 -->

00:31:45.920 And indecisive as well. 00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:57.759 So they can snap to a choice pretty quickly, but then they can still keep reopening it or re-evaluating it or being in a kind of loop of indecision or asking for reassurance, you know, if there's a lack of self-belief there. 00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:26.880 So if a good decision maker means there's a shared belief that that team or that individual has to be quick, I think there can also be a danger that where people who take a little bit more time to process or are more deliberate at first or process a bit more slowly, their voices don't always get heard, or they don't feel as though they're taken along the journey of somebody who thinks they're decisive but really actually just doesn't like the discomfort of not making a very, very quick response. 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:34.480 Sometimes it can just be the decisive person, maybe reducing the anxiety or the uncertainty of maybe not taking action right now. 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:45.119 So, from the same episode, we've actually got another clip here, and it's around understanding your decision styles and the process of deciding how to decide. 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:46.720 So let's have a listen. 00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:49.680 I think your experience working with teams very similar to ours. 00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:52.799 We see a lot of similar challenges, pressures, behaviors. 00:32:52.960 --> 00:33:00.799 I think, you know, a starting point is do I understand my own decision style and in different contexts how that style might change in one direction or another? 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:05.039 Have I given the space and time to understand the different styles of the people I work with? 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:11.839 And is there a style in the sort of wider ecosystem of my organization that we either are needing to lean more towards? 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.839 For example, we're all very intuitive in this innovative startup. 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:20.640 We need to dial into more objective data and slow down, or something like that. 00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.480 So some of it's just about understanding and appreciating style and then the connections. 00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:36.880 But honestly, I think the mistake a lot of people make is because we're time poor and we need to make decisions quickly and we've been told be decisive, we rush the all-important first step, which in our training we call decide how to decide. 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:40.160 I think in some of the readings and technical stuff, the meta decision. 00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:43.920 Let's contract and get clarity on how we're even going to approach this decision. 00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:47.200 So some simple things like what sort of decision is this? 00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:50.799 Do we all see this as high consequence and irreversible? 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:53.519 Or do some of us actually see this as very reversible? 00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:57.279 Because how we see a decision has a profound impact on how we approach it. 00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:05.599 A second example is okay, we're going to debate some different options here and come up with a decision, but are we clear on the criteria we're going to use at the point of decision? 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.360 Or even as something as simple as who is actually going to make this decision? 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:10.239 Is this vote? 00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:11.440 Is this consensus? 00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:13.280 Is it going to be derived authority? 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:15.840 Is it going to be the person at the top with the D? 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:20.079 And again, I think too often we have assumptions that we're clear on these things. 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.039 And so you hear in rooms questions like, are we all clear? 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.440 And we're all really nice and we go, yeah, I'm crystal clear. 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:26.559 But you drill down. 00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:29.440 Often people think they're clear and they're absolutely not. 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:32.480 And that's where a lot of decision making, I think, breaks down. 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:33.440 Interesting. 00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:34.960 What do you think, Christian? 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:58.400 It reminds me of a workshop that we delivered last year, actually, to a client of ours who were making some big decisions, an SLT who, for the first time, are actually meeting in person and really having to come together as one team, as one unit, and make really huge decisions for that organization that would impact obviously the whole organization. 00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:03.519 And we explored their different decision styles and preferences. 00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:12.880 And they found that incredibly useful because it kind of gave them an idea about how their decision-making styles complemented or clashed with one another. 00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:16.960 So they could start to think about maybe what are the barriers to making those decisions. 00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:24.400 But actually, I really like that clip because what had the biggest impact was literally deciding on what to decide. 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:29.280 So questions like, you know, is this decision or decisions, are they reversible or not? 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:39.440 Because the group actually realized that if you can and do some of those decisions, if they were reversible, then it was a case of like, let's just try it, let's just get the data and we can always walk it back. 00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:45.360 So sometimes it was that helped them to just then decide on the things that they could just decide fast. 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:53.519 Another question that they started to discuss was, you know, is actually that more thinking and more analysis actually going to change the answer? 00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:56.239 Or are we just avoiding commitment here? 00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:01.039 So I think some of those questions, as well as

sort of what state are we in right now? 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:07.519 So they were actually kind of experiencing a lot of stress, they were quite tired, and they were emotionally kind of like drained. 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:11.039 So they weren't trusting in the process at that moment. 00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:17.199 We talked about how actually the state you're in can then inform the quality of decisions that you'll make. 00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:27.840 Well, on that note of being aware of your own decision styles and how you're making decisions as a group, we do have another clip from the same episode actually with Mark Herbert. 00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:38.400 Another coach I know of, and I've had a conversation with and read some of their things, talks about the difference between self-awareness, which we hear and read lots about, and self-engagement, which goes deeper. 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:50.719 So, for instance, you pick up a decision styles profile or something similar, and you become more self-aware of your predisposition in a general sense to how you make decisions, albeit the context might shape and change that. 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:55.280 Okay, I have an awareness that I'm quite intuitive and I'm more intuitive than objective. 00:36:55.360 --> 00:37:04.320 But the self-engagement piece is am I aware in any given context or team how that preference and approach is impacting the people around me and how they then make decisions? 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:08.960 Because it's not enough just to go, well, I know I'm intuitive and I know Susan is objective. 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:09.920 Okay, we're different. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:10.960 Let's leverage that. 00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:14.880 When I say something from my gut, what impact does that have on Susan? 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.840 Does that draw her into the conversation or does it push her away? 00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:19.599 Or take something like speed. 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:26.000 If I'm intuitive and quite quick and I recognize that Susan's quite slow, it's not enough just to be self-aware of that. 00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:33.519 I need to engage with the reality that when I'm going quick, it doesn't feel quick to me, but to Susan it feels really, really rushed. 00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.360 So am I aware of that and engaging with it? 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:42.719 And I think that self-engagement piece that Lawrence Barrett talks about is really, really powerful because it takes us a step deeper than just knowing ourselves. 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:44.960 It's actually how are we then going to show up? 00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:50.639 And that's the emotional intelligence piece that I don't think we go deep enough on in high-performing teams. 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:52.960 Yeah, what do you think about that, Angela? 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:58.960 There's lots of tools and ways of, I suppose, increasing self-awareness of things like our strengths and decisions. 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:06.800 But Mark alludes to actually the real value of understanding the impact of our preferences and styles on other people. 00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:20.800 I think actually his point is it's the whole ballgame, really, because like you said, being aware of things is nice, but the so what of that is so how does that play out when I'm interacting with people? 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:32.960 What am I doing to recognize the impact of my actions and either mitigate or amplify that, depending on whether that impact is positive or maybe not so positive? 00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:39.679 So if you've got that down pat, you've probably solved a whole lot of world problems right there. 00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:40.880 I think you're right. 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:44.320 It's a good way to start tying up uh this podcast. 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:55.679 I think we've started off, I suppose, more focusing on the individual, what happens in the brain, some of the psychological concepts and constructs that are quite unique to judgment and decision making. 00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:02.320 And then we've then started to move that towards what this means for teams, decision making in organizations. 00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:05.119 Really enjoyed listening to some of these snippets. 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:14.000 And actually, in the future, I know we'll be talking more and more about AI and actually as organizations integrate AI into the ways of working. 00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:16.400 What does this mean for decision making? 00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:16.880 Yeah. 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:19.039 How does it impact our human judgment? 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:31.360 That is a hundred percent an entirely different episode on itself because I've already got just off the top of my head about three completely different points around AI and human judgment decision making. 00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:35.920 So I am looking forward to having that discussion on this podcast for sure. 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:36.800 Me too. 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:42.559 Well then, Christian, lovely to be with you today talking about decision styles, decision making. 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:43.840 Always a pleasure. 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:50.159 And as always, we didn't miss Amanda this time, but we're looking forward to having her back very soon. 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:59.920 And for anyone else who was listening, if you enjoyed this episode, please do give it a like, give it a share, and we hope you have a wonderful and successful day.