#141: You Built the System That’s Stressing You Out의 전체 녹취록

all kinds of parts to an hour. 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.000 Why can't you have shorter meetings? 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:22.879 Yeah why can't you have just touchstone meetings where you you check in for a few minutes? 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:23.439 Yeah. 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:25.600 Why does every meeting have to be an hour? 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:40.319 And if your day is full of these hour-long meetings that are hour-long because somebody said they have to be an hour long, and that are meetings because somebody said you need a meeting, and the whole purpose of those meetings is to be is to work together and be productive. 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:41.040 Yeah. 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:43.920 But are those meetings productive? 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:51.120 Well, I mean, you could argue that so one, the pattern is we don't do the work until the deadline of the meeting is closed. 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:52.000 Absolutely. 00:04:52.240 --> 00:05:01.920 So the work is sitting in between meetings, and then 20 minutes before the meeting, you're quickly trying to read and get ready and review and all of that, which means the quality of your participation in that meeting. 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:06.399 And what are you do working on before you work on the thing for the meeting? 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:07.519 Could be anything. 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:09.680 For most people, that's the actual work. 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:12.879 And then there's all this like busy work that goes with the busy meeting. 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:13.519 Yeah, yeah. 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:14.639 Does that make sense? 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:14.959 Yeah, yeah. 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:19.839 So you got busy work preceding busy meetings and then post-busy work. 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:24.319 And then in between all those things, you get your real work done. 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:24.879 Right. 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:25.759 A lot of times. 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:29.040 That's you know, a lot of times that's what's uh what I hear happening. 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.360 My calendar mostly empty. 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:32.959 You don't even look at your calendar. 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:34.160 I don't even look at my calendar. 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:35.519 I don't have a calendar. 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:40.160 And I don't and I try I probably do, but you have a calendar. 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.519 I mean, I know I have a calendar, but I don't really look at it. 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:43.920 Right. 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:45.600 And I don't really understand it. 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:50.480 And and and you know, I stay on track because I have to-do lists. 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:53.920 We want everyone in the world on the path to pro. 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:58.319 White belt, yellow belt, blue belt, landing in the PST credential. 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.279 The professional systems thinker credential. 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:13.519 And that's not just personal, it's also part of a wider vision

of eight billion systems thinkers above the standard, which is the professional systems thinker or PST. 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:17.199 Count yourself into it and let's change ourselves. 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:20.000 And when we change ourselves, we change the world. 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:26.240 We're very different, you and I, in how we approach work, how we approach our time, right? 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:30.079 So, I mean, everybody knows you're massively ADD. 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:32.560 Pretty and I am massively not ADD. 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:32.959 Yes. 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:35.120 Like, there's that that dynamic. 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:43.439 Which means, and I and I'm trying to move away from it where a lot of my and I've been I've been thinking about this for myself. 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:47.360 Like, I don't just bring these things up because I think they're interesting, because I actually am experiencing this. 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:48.000 Yeah. 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:55.040 You know, I notice that a lot of my prioritization of my time is driven by deadlines and calendars. 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:55.680 Yes. 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:58.160 Rather than any other alternative. 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:02.720 So if I said to I'm saying, well, how would I do it differently? 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:03.199 Right? 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:09.759 How how could I do that differently where I'm not constantly using deadlines and calendars to sort of organize my time? 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:12.560 So then the question is, is it that I have too much to do? 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:14.560 Is it that I'm inefficient? 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:15.759 Who knows? 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:20.399 Yeah, I mean, I'm probably gonna say some things that aren't popular or useful or whatever. 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:22.639 Because I I would say that's probably very true. 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:23.120 Yeah. 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:29.279 I mean, I d I don't even I don't it doesn't make deadlines don't make any sense to me. 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:30.560 I don't get them. 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:31.360 Why? 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:37.360 Because if you're if you're motivated by the work, the deadline is how fast can I get this thing done? 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:38.000 Yes. 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.720 So and if you're not motivated by the work, why are why are you doing it? 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:50.160 But you can be motivated by work and it can have a deadline, especially if it's an externally facing deadline. 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:50.879 Right. 00:07:50.959 --> 00:08:00.399 But to me, if I if if I want to work on that thing and I'm excited by the thing, then I would just finish the thing as fast as I can. 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:01.120 Aaron Ross Powell Right. 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:02.879 At the expense of other things. 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:05.759 No, I just wouldn't take on other things. 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:07.199 That would become a priority. 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:07.680 Right. 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:10.639 But I don't really think of it like there's a deadline. 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:17.519 Like if it if it's a if I'm if I need a deadline to be motivated, then I probably shouldn't do it in the first place. 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.399 Aaron Ross Powell But what if you don't need the deadline to be motivated? 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:23.360 The deadline's just the dead the deadline is just reality. 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.439 The deadline is reality, but I would finish it with it's think of it this way. 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:33.840 The classes that I took that I went to, which is rare, I I was very interested in them. 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:42.159 The other classes I was forced to take, I wasn't interested in, because it was just like you're just phoning it in because somebody told you you have to take a class. 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:42.720 Yeah. 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:50.960 But the classes that I really like, what I would do is I'd go get the textbook, I would read the whole textbook before the class even started. 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:51.360 Yeah. 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:56.799 And I would be done with the textbook so that I could engage in the subject matter more more fully. 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:58.000 Right, right, right. 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:02.480 That's not the dead that that completely wipes out all the deadlines of that class. 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:04.720 There are no deadlines anymore. 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:08.480 Because you've already you've already done the work because you're interested in the work. 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:09.679 Yeah, no, I get that. 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:22.320 So like the deadline, a deadline is really is really like a it's it's like a weird external incentive that you don't actually need if you're internally incentivized. 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:25.440 Yeah, but I think right now at this moment I'm taking offense. 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:26.159 Probably. 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:27.039 That's what I said at the moment. 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:28.000 Well, I'm telling you. 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:28.799 I predicted this. 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:29.919 Um yeah, no, I know. 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:32.240 I think I'm a little offended. 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:32.559 Okay. 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:33.279 Here's why. 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:35.200 And I'm sure people like me are also offended. 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:36.879 So you've probably just offended a blog. 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:39.440 Probably 50% of the world is offended right now. 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:56.639 I get the sense that when there are competing demands on your time, and those demands are, let's say just for for argument's sake, those demands are equally important to you succeeding at what you're motivated to succeed to do. 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:04.960 You have to have some balance in being able to meet all of those different demands by the time they need to be met. 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.759 Which is

why deadlines can become useful. 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:08.639 Right? 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:16.799 Because if something is due tomorrow versus next week and both of them are equally interesting to me, it's not that this deadline is motivating me. 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:23.279 It's that in order for my definition of success, I will meet this deadline first and this deadline second. 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:26.960 Because meeting this deadline first means I don't get to get this one too. 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:27.919 And I want both. 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.440 So I don't I don't know that But that's just sequencing. 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:31.919 Yeah. 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:33.120 That's not deadlines. 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:33.679 Right. 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:36.159 That's those are that's just a sequencing issue. 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:40.559 It's just like I can't do everything at once, so I'm gonna do this first and then that next, and then that next. 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:43.600 And that's a reality-based approach to managing your time. 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:44.320 Yeah, for sure. 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:46.480 Which is reflected in your calendar. 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:47.440 I agree. 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:47.840 Yeah. 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:48.720 Completely. 00:10:49.120 --> 00:11:04.320 One thing that I think is interesting is I think, and we've talked about this before, where at the end of a day, if you had three things on your to-do list or ten things on your to-do list and you got four of them done, then you can end up feeling like you failed the day. 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:05.519 And so then we've talked about this. 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:06.720 So now I have fewer things. 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:07.519 I'm more realistic. 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:11.919 But that's but that's a fr the what you're describing is a fractal to the bigger problem. 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:20.960 It's just like the my what you're describing is that little m that little problem, which is like, so let's say I have a day, here's my day, and then you know, I have a week. 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:27.759 And and you've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten things. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:34.960 And you and by the and you're like, if I don't get all ten of those done, then I'm a loser. 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:35.519 Okay. 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:36.159 Right? 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:36.879 Or whatever. 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:37.440 You feel bad. 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:38.960 You feel like you haven't succeeded. 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:40.799 I don't do it that way. 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:41.519 Yeah. 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:45.679 I do it like I'm gonna try to work on these four things today. 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:47.279 And make progress on them. 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:48.559 Yeah, and we'll see. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.840 Like we'll adapt until those are gone. 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:53.519 Yeah, so that's what I do now. 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:54.000 Yeah. 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:55.279 This is my learning, right? 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:56.240 So I used to do this. 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:56.799 Yes. 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:05.759 Now I'm like, okay, I'm both realistic, I'm realistic about what is possible, and I'm more focused on the big things that matter. 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:06.399 Right. 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:11.919 And then I'm also amenable to hey, I made progress on three, and four's going here. 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:12.320 Yep. 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:13.759 Because that's the next thing. 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:15.360 And it's just sort of perturbating. 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:19.840 But to me, that's very different than like there's this external deadline. 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:20.559 Yeah. 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:27.440 And it's let's say, you know, three weeks, and I could get this done in three days. 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.480 Like, I would just get it done in three days. 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:32.399 If you had nothing else on your plate. 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:33.360 If I had nothing else. 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:34.960 Which is not real for most people. 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:35.279 Aaron Powell, Jr. 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.279 Yeah, but see what a lot of people do is they take this this thing and they put it here. 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:40.320 Yeah, I know, I know. 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:46.559 And then and then you have for this entire thing, which they create as an externality, what you have is stress. 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:49.039 Because this thing isn't getting done until the end. 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:49.759 Aaron Powell Yeah. 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:56.559 So what I'm proposing is this thing is is a little bit of progress all the way along. 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:58.240 Aaron Powell Yeah, if you want to do that. 00:12:58.399 --> 00:12:59.519 Or you could just finish it. 00:12:59.919 --> 00:13:02.720 If there's nothing else on your plate, which is not normal. 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:11.039 Aaron Ross Powell Well, but if you take if you take ten things and you space them out over incremental progress, or you do ten things one at a time. 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:11.519 Yeah. 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.000 It's it's just six sixes. 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:15.840 It's just like, what do you want how do you want to do it? 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:17.039 Yeah, I see what you mean. 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:17.840 You see what I'm saying? 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:18.320 Yeah, yeah. 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:25.200 Absolutely. 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:26.000 I'm not recommending. 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:34.480 And that I I think, you know, I'm like, I would I would try to get the the things that are the worst done the fastest. 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:34.960 Right? 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:35.360 Yeah. 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:44.159 And there's an analogue to this, which is the meetings thing, which I was saying is like, oh, right before the meeting, I'm gonna read the stuff I need to

do to collaborate at the meeting. 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:48.240 Where the truth is if you micro collaborated along the way, the meeting would be much better. 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:48.799 Yes. 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:51.279 Because everybody would have been engaged over time. 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:53.519 Yeah, and if you just think more. 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:54.159 Yeah. 00:13:54.480 --> 00:14:00.000 Like think more about the topic, you can walk into the meeting and have better thoughts. 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:00.720 Yes. 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:01.200 Right? 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.240 Instead of like just doing the the homework. 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:04.960 Yeah. 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:15.120 You know, understand the structure of what the what the meeting is about fundamentally, and then you can adapt that structure. 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:15.679 Yeah. 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:19.360 But uh again, a lot of people a lot of times homework is like busy work. 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:20.000 For sure. 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.840 Homework is like, I have to I have to know this stuff. 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:29.679 And you're like, well, after you've read uh a hundred pages, do you really know the stuff? 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:38.639 Could you could you draw a map of the stuff on a single page when you're done reading that hundred pages? 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:47.919 Or could you read ten pages of it and draw a map and actually understand it better than the hundred pages? 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:48.639 Right. 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:49.919 And do that ten times. 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:54.559 Because like if you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it. 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:55.360 Yes. 00:14:55.679 --> 00:15:00.240 You know, a lot of us go, oh, to prep for this meeting, I gotta read this hundred page thing. 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:01.039 No, you don't. 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:01.519 Yeah. 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:04.879 You could read that hundred page thing and not retain any of it. 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:06.639 So you've now checked the box. 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.480 I read the hundred page thing. 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:10.399 You didn't retain really any of it. 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:14.000 You're not any more prepared for the meeting, but you checked the box. 00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:14.639 Right. 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:15.519 And then you show up. 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:19.679 And then you show up and you have no idea really what's going on in the hundred-page document. 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:20.000 Right. 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:23.200 Because you didn't structurally understand the hundred-page document. 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.600 Aaron Ross Powell Yes, and that's true of almost anything in life, really. 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:25.840 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:26.639 That's true of everything. 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:31.440 Sometimes I think like our children don't realize the totality of what we do in a given day. 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:33.279 And I was thinking about this. 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:38.799 Like if I looked at my calendar and I actually put everything I actually do on my calendar. 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:39.440 Oh, yeah. 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:40.480 Cook breakfast. 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:41.279 Yeah. 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:47.279 Return the phone calls of this, have a meeting, turn in a, you know, pick up pick up the gate, stake. 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:51.679 I mean, yes. 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:56.799 And you know, when kids are little, it's cook breakfast, drive them, you know, get them to school. 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.039 You know, first, it's help them find them out. 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:06.639 You know, it's like if you think of the micro, all the way to the end of the day where it's like you end with packing their lunches, pulling their outfits for the next day. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:06.879 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:08.320 Why would you put all that on your calendar? 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:09.840 That's what I'm saying, is you don't. 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:10.879 But why would you? 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:12.960 Because it would take you longer to put it on your calendar. 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:23.519 I'm not saying you should, but I'm saying it would allow us to have a more accurate understanding of what we actually do in a day and where our priorities actually are. 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:24.799 Oh, I see what you're saying. 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:25.120 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:25.279 Right. 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:30.320 Because you just said at the beginning what's not on your calendar is as important as what is on your calendar. 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:30.879 Yes. 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:31.279 Right? 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:40.480 If I wanted to really see the totality of what I do in a day, first you know, and what you do in a day, there are a million things you do that like the kids don't see. 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:40.879 Yeah. 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:42.080 Because they think, oh, we can't. 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:45.279 Well, that's what a to-do list is in a way or a weird sort of way. 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:50.240 Like a to-do list is far more accurate of all the things you're doing. 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:52.799 And I mean it certainly doesn't include all of the things. 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:54.799 I don't put brush my teeth on my to-do list. 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:55.200 Right. 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:57.919 And I don't put cook breakfast, cook dinner on my to-do list. 00:16:58.320 --> 00:16:58.879 You just do them. 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:04.559 But but I'm saying a to-do list is a far more ambidextrous kind of tool than a calendar. 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:04.799 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:13.359 Right, but it would be interesting if for those of you who for those of us, like I'm I've been working on personal management for a long time. 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:14.160 Yes.

00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:15.279 I think about that. 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:25.519 Like if I actually at the end of the day wrote down or had on my list every single thing that I actually did that day, I would go to sleep every day feeling like a success. 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:33.279 Because I fed my family, I got my kids to school, I took them to so you know, like but if you just have your to-do list around like work. 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.960 Why are we framing the whole day around whether or not you're a success or not? 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.599 That seems like a strange perspective. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:44.400 Because it it's a zero-sum game. 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.519 Like you're either you're either a winner or a loser every day. 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:48.799 I think that's a fair point. 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:57.680 But I guess when I think about it, when I talk to people, and they're like, I'm overwhelmed, I'm struggling, I'm not taking care of myself, I'm failing my kids, I'm this. 00:17:57.920 --> 00:17:59.200 We're very judgmental of ourselves. 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.519 Yeah, so what I would do is put on your calendar this week, stop being judgmental. 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:05.440 Just as like an all-day event. 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:06.960 It's an all-day event. 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.079 Like stop being judgmental all the time. 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:11.759 But we're trained that way. 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:13.599 Okay, well, untrained. 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:14.240 No, I agree. 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:14.720 I like that. 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.200 It just feels like really a lot of pressure. 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:17.680 I know. 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:21.119 I'm like, I'm gonna work on the things I want to work on. 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.599 And I'm intrinsically motivated to work on them, so deadlines are irrelevant. 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:30.960 And the more you do what you love and what you the better the job you do. 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:33.839 Because you're not phoning it in for deadline's sake. 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:36.559 Yeah, but I feel like that's a luxury for some people. 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:38.559 Well, it's not a luxury. 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:43.599 It's a it's a it's an action that I've taken since I was living in my car. 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:47.039 So it wasn't like it wasn't like I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:47.839 No, I know that. 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.599 Had the luxury of, you know, doing what I like. 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:52.640 Yeah, no, I know. 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:59.200 I've forced yourself into brute forced myself into being able to do what I'm interested in. 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:00.160 Yeah, that's right. 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:15.279 I'm saying if if if you continually choose that, then you'll eventually get so good at that thing because you're so passionate about that thing that you'll be able to do that thing for for a living

or for a life or whatever. 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:16.079 Interesting. 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:29.200 And if you're getting, you know, taking feedback well from reality, then you're But I d I think it's I don't know if I could I don't know if I could live under the regime of like judging myself every day based on what I got done. 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:30.880 Because some days I get nothing done. 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.759 And then other days I'm like incredibly prolific. 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:38.480 It's it's just like when you're lifting or whatever, it's like you can't you can't lift every day. 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:40.240 You gotta there's gotta be downtime. 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:40.960 I mean you can. 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:51.680 You can, but over time, if you're not 20 years old, over time you're gonna do damage and it's and you're not letting your muscles recover and all kinds of stuff, right? 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.839 Like when when I was a kid, they'd always say, What was it? 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.200 All all work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy or something. 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:01.039 Didn't we say that the other day in a podcast? 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:02.799 Yeah, what I don't remember the time. 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:11.039 That's weird that that's coming up a lot, but it's like the cont the the all the all in and never rest paradigm. 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:17.039 Rest, regardless of what you call rest, I don't mean rest like sleep on a log, although it could be. 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:18.880 That's a very nice place to sleep. 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:19.759 On a log. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:25.039 But I'm saying rest meaning downtime for your brain, for your body. 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.319 And downtime could be just different time, right? 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:34.960 Like go bowling if you don't bowl a lot, or go, you know, go into the mountains or you go on a hike or just do something different. 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:37.279 Do something different than what you're doing. 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:38.799 That's downtime. 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:39.440 Yeah. 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:43.519 Making every day be productive, I mean, maybe, I don't know. 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:46.559 Influencers tell you to do that, but I don't who cares? 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:48.000 Who what influencers? 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:56.720 Well, everybody's saying now, you know, you gotta do, you know, the once and do it all the time. 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:57.440 And yeah. 00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:59.519 I'm like, okay, whatever, you do you. 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.200 But I'm sort of like, hey, some days are gonna be just chill. 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:04.319 Yeah, no, I agree. 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.359 And some days are gonna be like raring to go. 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:09.279 Like you need ebb and flow. 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:18.319 There's an ebb and flow to life, and you can surf that wave or ride that roller coaster or whatever metaphor you want to use. 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:19.119 Yeah, yeah. 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:21.039 Don't force it so much. 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.160 Don't put 40 pounds of potato in a 20-pound bag. 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:25.680 It's a lot of potatoes. 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.440 Well, it's not enough bag. 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:28.799 No, but it's also a lot. 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:30.319 Well, you didn't. 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:31.680 Potatoes in the law. 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:33.519 That's interesting. 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:46.960 I mean, I think part of what I was thinking about when we started this is, you know, I just don't know if people have a sense that things like calendars, to-do lists, whatever are you. 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:48.079 Oh, yeah, we completely agree. 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.720 They're windows into sort of your mental model. 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:51.680 Absolutely. 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:52.799 No, I totally agree with that. 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:57.119 You know, we kind of take them as absolute or what do they mean in your life? 00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:58.000 Like what what are they? 00:21:58.160 --> 00:21:59.039 Well, you want to be a diagnosis. 00:21:59.279 --> 00:21:59.839 What do they represent? 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.920 Yeah, and they can be a diagnostic for you. 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:03.759 And they can be a prison for you. 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:04.240 Yes. 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:07.599 Because that diagnostic, that mental model that's baked into it. 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:10.160 I'll tell you, I was saying this the other day. 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:12.720 It's like, so we know a lot about human learning. 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:19.519 And not too long ago, Cornell did a bunch of uh classroom redesigns. 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:20.880 Yes, I remember. 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:27.519 And these beautiful, immaculate, multimillion dollar rooms that they created. 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.240 You know, there's a door here, there's a door here. 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:37.759 This is like road seating, like a movie theater that you have to like, excuse me, pardon me, excuse me, pardon me, to get in with a desk attached. 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:38.799 A long desk, yeah. 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:39.359 Right? 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:41.119 All facing forward. 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:42.240 Not movable. 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:47.279 Not movable, not not even navigatable, and then rows, you know, walkways. 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:48.640 Basically a movie theater. 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:49.119 Yeah. 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:54.000 A screen, and then somebody presumably a person stands here, here's the lectern. 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.880 And these are the classes, classrooms that we taught in. 00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:57.599 Yeah. 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:03.039 Well, this is somebody's mental model of how learning, how human learning happens. 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:03.440 Yeah. 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:05.279 And it's totally

wrong. 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:05.759 Yeah. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:13.440 It says that all almost all our learning is going to happen with these ears, and that all the expertise is in this person. 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:21.039 All the informational expertise is here, and it's all going this way, and the listening comes from here. 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:24.559 So it's it's basically one-directional. 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:35.119 And we're using our ears, which is like, from a cortical humunculous perspective, like that's this is the perfect educational design for deer. 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:36.079 Yeah, for sure. 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:36.480 Right? 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:38.400 Because deer learn a lot. 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:46.240 Their brain is very much hooked up to their their is very much this is my this is my deer. 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:49.279 And the antlers. 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:50.400 Big ears. 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.720 They're hooked up to their ears. 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.680 But our brain is hooked up to our eyes and our hands. 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:58.640 We should be doing stuff and seeing stuff, not listening to stuff. 00:23:59.039 --> 00:23:59.440 And moving around. 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:00.559 Moving around. 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:03.119 This is a terrible classroom design. 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:03.680 Yes. 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:04.160 Right? 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:12.240 But we spent a ton of money on it, and it and it's indicative of it's the material manifestation of a mental model of how learning happens. 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:12.559 Right. 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:13.519 And it's wrong. 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:14.079 Right. 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:24.400 And like you're saying, the calendar is a material manifestation of your mental model of how things should happen and what should happen and what's a priority. 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:28.480 And not questioning that material manifestation. 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:29.680 It's dangerous. 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:30.400 Yeah. 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:31.279 It's dangerous. 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:37.519 It's well, because that's where you get into the mental models I'm talking about, where I'm like judging and I think that's baked in. 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:40.880 And I'm saying, oh, this isn't on my calendar, and so it's not a prior. 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:42.720 Yeah, it's all it's all over the place. 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:44.000 We do that all the time. 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:47.359 We bake we bake our mental models into the systems around us. 00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:48.000 Yeah. 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:50.720 And so that's called distributed intelligence. 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:54.799 So we distribute our intelligence into the material things around us. 00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:00.799 And we should always be inspecting those things, because those systems constrain our behavior. 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.240 They they system structure determines our behavior. 00:25:04.400

--> 00:25:04.640 Yeah. 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.920 Determines and constrains at the same time. 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:20.400 So if we don't build those systems around us, those manifestable structures to facilitate good thinking and good living, then then they then they constrain us. 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:20.960 Yeah. 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:22.240 And they direct us. 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:22.559 Yes. 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:23.440 Like cattle. 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:24.079 That's right. 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:28.319 Well, it's not there it is. 00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:28.880 Right? 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:30.240 So it it is what it is. 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.160 It is what it is. 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:34.319 Like it's your choice. 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:35.200 It's not judgy. 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:40.880 It's like I don't like when it comes to certain decisions, I want to be like a cow. 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:41.440 Yeah. 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:42.160 You don't want to be a couple of cows. 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:44.880 I just don't care enough about that particular thing. 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:49.839 And if it's a a bunch of stuff, I I'm like, yeah, just take me down the path. 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:54.240 Lead me to the you know, to the slaughter or whatever, right? 00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:55.200 I'm good with that. 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.119 But with other things, I'm like, I don't want that kind of structure in place. 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:00.960 So it's it's not a judgy thing. 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:06.400 Some places in your life you want those kinds of structures, and some places in your life you don't. 00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:13.680 And if you don't pay attention to this place versus that place, then they're controlling you. 00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:17.920 By they, I mean these systems, your calendar, etc. 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:29.119 I guess for me, part of the the wider point, I feel like my struggle should be shared so that people can learn from like think about your calendar as a mental model. 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:30.880 Think about your to-do list as a mental model. 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:32.000 The struggle is real. 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:33.920 My struggle is real. 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.640 I will tell you, I mean, I'm in my 50s. 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:46.960 When you're in the 30s and you have young kids, you're very judgmental of yourself and you're very overwhelmed by your calendar and your to-do list. 00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:52.720 And I wish I had known then what I know now, which is you know, chill. 00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:54.480 Stop judging it. 00:26:54.799 --> 00:27:00.319 Pay attention to what you get done, think about the priorities, simplify your life a little bit. 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:08.720 And then in your 40s, you're sort of more focused on, you know, you then you're navigating your kids through the risky parts of life, like high school. 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:10.000 Yeah, I don't know. 00:27:10.079 -->

00:27:19.519 I just I I wish I could go back and tell my younger self don't fall into the trap, you know, of all that stuff of all of that stuff, because it it's not helpful. 00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:21.359 Yeah, I think that's true. 00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:26.640 Well, I'm in the mindset of constantly trying to improve my systems, and I think of my calendar as a system. 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:28.640 That I think is a hundred percent. 00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.000 You should improve your systems. 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:30.480 Yeah. 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:47.680 When I was a kid, we we had all these assembly line things that we'd do for my mom's business and my dad's business and all that stuff, and it really taught me how to how to create better systems because I hated it so much that I focused on, you know, because it's repetitive. 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:50.000 It's like being literally on an assembly line. 00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:50.240 Yeah. 00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:57.039 And we had thousands of them to do, and I was like, you know, 12 years old, and I was like, I this is not what I want to be doing. 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:18.480 So I would just, I would be like, how could I like how could I literally, in order to get the next paper off, one sheet of paper, how can I lick my fingers and get it to the paper so I can get one sheet of paper off in a in a the in the most efficient way possible? 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:21.759 And then do that for the entire system. 00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:22.319 Yep. 00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:26.319 And make the system, you know, work for you. 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:29.519 And like my entire day is set up like that. 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:29.920 Yeah. 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:32.880 Like everywhere I go, everything I do is like that. 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:33.680 Is like that. 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:40.400 Do you remember then when they invented that little tube that you put water in and had a little tiny sponge? 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:40.720 Yeah. 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.519 And you could instead of licking the envelopes, because I got so tired of licking envelopes. 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:46.559 Yeah, God, it's so gross. 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:47.440 My tongue would be fair. 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.200 It tasted terrible. 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.599 I remember being like, this is the smartest thing anybody's ever invented. 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:54.559 I loved that thing. 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.519 It was amazing. 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:56.480 It was genius. 00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:57.920 And it was probably like three dollars. 00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:00.319 Yeah, and then they made it so that you don't you just stick them. 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:01.680 Yeah, then they made self-systems. 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:02.720 And that was like, oh my gosh. 00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:03.759 But they were more expensive. 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:04.720 We've arrived. 00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:06.160 That's when I knew. 00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:07.519 Innovation was a little. 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:18.000 Yeah, so uh everything around you is a system, and if you want to have it help you, that's critical. 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:19.440 Seeing it as a system. 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:19.839 Yeah. 00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:21.359 And seeing it as a mental model. 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:21.759 Yeah. 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:28.960 There was a many years ago I worked in outside of Moab in the Canyonlands and all the desert areas, right? 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:32.799 And down there, there's this amazing rock art. 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:40.319 And it the native people of those regions would, you know, do these paintings on the walls, and it's still there. 00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:42.160 You can go see them, they're beautiful. 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:50.240 And for a while, I I did a course, long time course with a guy that was studying this, and we had all kinds of conversations about it. 00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:56.319 And it as the name implies, we initially thought that this stuff was art. 00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:57.759 Right? 00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:59.440 It was just artistic. 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:04.720 But it turns out that what it was was was distributed intelligence. 00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:15.200 It was like if I'm nomadic and moving through an area, as I come into a new valley, I can read the walls and it tells me all about the valley. 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:28.400 It tells me about the hunting in the valley, it tells me about the other tribe in the valley, whether or not I should be there or not, you know, the seasons, all it's telling me a story about this particular valley. 00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:29.680 It's not art. 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:30.240 Yeah. 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:30.880 Right? 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:36.960 It's it's a distributed knowledge system that's built into the environment. 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:44.480 You know, all of these systems that we create around us, you those systems will constrain and determine your behavior. 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:45.359 I think that's right. 00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:49.359 And so if you see what you're seeing, which is, hey, this calendar is a mental model. 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:51.039 There's a mental model underneath. 00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:51.359 Yeah. 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:54.319 Because if we just see a classroom, we go, oh, it's a classroom. 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:59.119 But if you see a mental model and you go, God, that that's a terrible mental model. 00:30:59.279 --> 00:30:59.680 Yeah. 00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:01.440 That led to this thing. 00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:02.000 Yeah. 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:16.160 And this thing is going to determine how everybody in the room, every class behaves, no matter who they are, no matter what they believe, no matter what their mental model is, the structure of this room is going to change the way education happens. 00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:19.039 Right, but to change that room, you have to change the mental model. 00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:19.519 Right. 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:25.119 Just like to change, you have to change your mental model to change your calendar, to change the way you're behaving. 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:25.440 Yeah. 00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:30.000 Because those things shape how we behave, the classroom, the calendar, whatever. 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:34.319 So the the base level, the unit of analysis there is the mental model. 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:34.720 Absolutely. 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:36.240 The mental model is what has to change. 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:38.160 M equals IL. 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:38.960 All right. 00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:39.839 Did we do it? 00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:40.799 We did it. 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:42.240 That's a wrap.