When Darkness Lingers: Walking Through Depression with God - Part 1의 전체 녹취록

people about your mental health. There's a huge fear. And before I go into my own personal story, I wanna ask you guys, have you ever dealt with depression or experienced that personally in your own life? [00:02:54] Jennifer: Yes, we have. Today's topic is one that's really close to our hearts. We have struggled with depression a lot as we had to work through not having kids, and the company Eric worked for going under. [00:03:04] Eric: Yes. And as Jenny mentioned, losing my job and being unemployed now for, man how long has it been? It's since July last year. Yeah. July 2024. So it's what, eight months, nine months? [00:03:18] Jessica: Yep. [00:03:19] Eric: It's been difficult. Trying different things, applying different places. The economy's not great for getting jobs in certain fields. It has been very difficult and especially more recently it's been hard for me. Learning to trust God through this and not succumb to the depression and the anxiety and the fear has been quite the battle more recently and more than I have experienced I would say maybe since, yeah, a number of years ago when I dealt with some other things in my life. [00:03:49] Jessica: And when you also say that's something that's hard to talk about other people, just like your struggles of going through the motions and just feeling depressed. [00:03:55] Eric: Yes. Oh, absolutely. I grew up in a culture that made you suppress your emotions and suppress those feelings, and you had to have it together. And so, I struggle with opening up on my own suffering and letting people in on that who could either help or just want to love and pray for us. [00:04:16] Jennifer: As you mentioned in the first episode, we had a really rough time while waiting for my surgery, not knowing how we could afford the private surgery I needed, coupled with me physically and emotionally struggling with having significant health problems in my twenties, it was a very dark, depressing time for us. Coming to the realization that it is okay and not a sin to be struggling with depression and admitting this to ourselves and others was a huge breakthrough. [00:04:38] Jennifer: We were able to pray more effectively and were encouraged by other believers when we started opening up about why we were down. I realized there is no need to be ashamed or alone when in the valley of the shadow of death. I love Psalm 23 verse four. Even though I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, I will not fear for you are with me. Your rod and staff comfort me. [00:04:59] Jennifer: As I was going under for my surgery, this verse I memorized as a child suddenly popped into my head and reminded me that I was not alone and everything would be okay, even though I was having major surgery in another country 5,000 miles away from home. I'm still continuing to learn about depression and how to open up thanks to Jessica, Eric, and other wonderful people in my life, and I look forward to hearing more about Jessica's journey in

the next little bit. [00:05:24] Eric: Yeah, and for me, having been working stably in the same industry for 14 years, and my last job I held for eight years, having that all come to an end, it was surreal. Even near the end, just before I lost my job, there were plans being made to continue on at the business and stuff like that, and then everything just fell apart. [00:05:46] Eric: I feel sorry for my bosses that had to go through what they went through, but I went in one day, it was actually Canada Day and they were like, yeah, we can't continue on anymore. And I'm like, well, I guess I'll just wrap things up and go home. And I got home, well actually it was, I went to my mom's house 'cause we were supposed to go to my mom's for hanging out there. [00:06:10] Eric: And I just broke down and cried. I've never experienced anything like it. I've heard people experience, it but for me to experience that was surreal. And then it kind of hits you over and over again as you're unemployed, you know, trying to get jobs, maybe trying to start something yourself, and stuff just doesn't happen in your timetable that you want. God teaches you through it, how to trust him and how to cast your cares upon him because He cares for you. [00:06:39] Jessica: Amen. [00:06:40] Eric: And, uh, it's a hard thing to learn, but I thank God that he is gentle and that he is loving and that he is merciful and he is kind and he is bringing me through it. [00:06:50] Jessica: I've seen you guys grow through that over the last year. Like even Jenny's physical health and you losing your job and all these things have been really hard for you guys, I've been seeing you guys grow in the faith and that has been a blessing to watch, even if it's been, it's really hard to go through. [00:07:06] Eric: Praise the Lord. [00:07:07] Jessica: And God's been like taking you through it and he's still taking you through it. [00:07:10] Eric: Amen. Yeah. And he is, and he will bring us through it. [00:07:13] Jessica: Yep. [00:07:14] Jennifer: So ready? Yep. Ready? You got this dude. I mean, do that. [00:07:14] Jennifer: Jessica, we're honored you're opening up about this topic too. Let's start from the beginning. When did you first realize you were dealing with depression? [00:07:21] Jessica: So, I think I didn't realize I struggled with depression. There is different degrees of depression and that's kind of why I never really thought I really struggled with it as bad because oh, I'm not like paralyzed, laying in bed for like days on end. [00:07:39] Jessica: But I would say I have struggled with probably since I was a teen. Because it goes hand in hand with doubting and it's just kinda like in and out of season. There's season was like better like, oh, I don't got that problem. And then there's sometimes where like it gets bad because there's things that pop up and it just really challenges you where you're at. [00:08:00] Jessica: This particular depression that I really went through, it started back in February of 2021. That was when Covid was, just kind of coming out of it, but the rules kept coming off and on and off and on. And that's when we were like drawn back from our communities. I really kind of felt the effects of that. But there was a thought that really came with this particular depression is I woke up one day and I felt like I don't have a purpose in my life. And I felt that really strong. And I don't even know where exactly it came from, but there was a strong feeling attached to that. I say 2021, it's been four years. That's a long time. But it's not like it was a constant darkness. Oh, I'm fine. Everything's good, everything's fine. And then you felt poured back into it. [00:08:51] Jessica: So I have a journal entry that I could read that really describes how it started. So if you want me to read that? [00:09:00] Eric: Yeah, please. [00:09:00] Jessica: Okay. So this is January 6th, 2021. I'm still fighting. I'm losing, I'm falling. No one sees. [00:09:12] Jessica: God doesn't care or he's, I don't know. I can't pick myself up. The voices are louder. They're louder than the truth. The voices are relentless. How do I find joy? How do I find peace in God? Seek God. Drown, says the voice. Despair. You fail. Do you believe in prayer? Why or why not? Do you believe in God's promises? [00:09:39] Jessica: I'm trying to pick myself up, but I'm unable. Nobody knows. Nobody sees, but I'm okay, right? I'm strong. I'm the encourager. I don't need help. I'm not strong. I'm weak. I'm broken. I'm tired. Usually I wouldn't hesitate to text my friends for prayer, but now that I live with them, I don't want to burden them. [00:10:00] Jessica: I'm scared to ask for help. I'm terrified because I'm ashamed of this and I can't pull myself out. [00:10:07] Jennifer: Why did you struggle with those thoughts? Can you describe your depression and where it comes from Jessica? [00:10:13] Jessica: I would say my depression probably did string outta that doubt, the feeling that came with it, like what is my purpose? And though I could tell myself, man's primary purpose is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. That's a catechism that you learn when you're a kid and stuff like that. And I'm just like, I don't feel that right now. [00:10:35] Jessica: And I don't know how to feel that. And it was really hard. Maybe it also kicked off because I was reduced from my community. And you might ask, well that was over a four-year period. Didn't you go back into your community? But the thing is that lie, that seed was planted in there and I did not know how to weed it out. Also there's other factors that aggravated that thought, and I didn't know how to really dwell upon the truth in that. [00:11:08] Jennifer: So since you've had this since 2021, when did you start to acknowledge you struggled with depression and might need help? [00:11:15] Jessica: I kind of dipped in and out of it, so it's not like I was 100% in like the valley. So I would

convince myself, oh, it's not that bad. Look, I'm fine when I'm out of it. And then I think when I started really realizing that I had a problem is, I would say, probably over the last year when my depression escalated, because it was also, I would say, aggravated. Or just like really pushed upon me because I withdrew even more from my church community. Not because I wanted to, but because my job got really hard. We don't talk about this, but like my job took a physical toll on me. So that also just, pushed me further into like, what is the purpose of my life? It felt really awful, and I was just exhausted all the time because of my job. [00:12:12] Eric: And it's easy, I would say it's easy in a lot of context to try to gloss that over when you're talking to people. [00:12:20] Jessica: Yep. [00:12:21] Eric: Because you don't want to burden them with the pain that you're experiencing. And also even from my experience more recently with things that I've been dealing with, I almost don't believe it's real. [00:12:35] Jessica: Yeah. [00:12:35] Eric: I'm tempted to think I'm making it up. [00:12:39] Jessica: Yeah. [00:12:40] Eric: I'm tempted to believe that it's just a fantasy and I gotta pull it together and move on. Kinda like what you were saying in your journal, right? [00:12:47] Jessica: Yep. [00:12:47] Eric: And then you get to a point where you break and it's just so overwhelming and you cry out to God and just say, I can't do it. I can't do this anymore. [00:13:00] Jessica: Yep. [00:13:00] Eric: And then you get to a point where you break and it's just so overwhelming and you cry out to God and just say, I can't do it. [00:13:11] Jessica: Yeah. [00:13:11] Eric: I can't do this anymore. I need help. Please help me. And that was me last weekend. By God's grace, God brought help our way and we're better. I still need employment, but we're a little bit better now I'm able to breathe a little easier, and so I'm still praying for employment and applying, but man, trying to bring that up with your friends and talk about it. [00:13:42] Jessica: It's really hard. [00:13:43] Eric: Is so hard. So hard. I feel your pain. [00:13:46] Jessica: Yeah. [00:13:47] Jennifer: I really appreciate, Jessica, you sharing the journal entry. You read it to me a while back and it really helped put words to what I was struggling to express myself, and I'm seeing it's helping Eric too, so thank you for sharing. [00:14:03] Jessica: Yeah that's what a writer brain does. They write down everything. [00:14:06] Eric: I don't know if this is weird or not, but reading it, it was so beautiful too. It's like the Psalms in the sense of how it is written and the cadence and just the absolute gushing of how you feel to God. [00:14:20] Jessica: Yeah. [00:14:21] Eric: And like hearing this has helped me learn how to pray better and I wanna hear more stuff like this because it helps me articulate what I'm thinking to God, who wants to hear me, you, Jenny, and whoever's

listening, he wants to hear us. [00:14:38] Jessica: Yeah. [00:14:39] Eric: In this way. [00:14:41] Jessica: Yeah. [00:14:42] Eric: It was a little bit of a rabbit trail, but yeah thank you for writing that, and thank you for being willing to share it. [00:14:48] Jennifer: It's not easy. [00:14:49] Jessica: Nope. Marker [00:14:51] Jennifer: Jessica, what would you say are the different types of depressions and degrees of it? [00:14:54] Jessica: Before I answer that question, I wanna ask you guys, when you think of depression, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Oh, that person struggles with depression. What do you think of? [00:15:04] Eric: Despair. Utter hopelessness. [00:15:05] Jennifer: They're wandering around, and they're lost and can't find their way out. [00:15:09] Jessica: Yeah. I think for me, I used to think when people say, oh, I struggle with depression, I think of the most absolute worst case scenario where they just can't function. There's also people who have high functioning depression, where they can look like they're completely normal in society. They're completely doing their job, but at home it just, they look like a mess. [00:15:30] Eric: That is a good point. [00:15:32] Jessica: That was me. [00:15:33] Eric: And I believe that because when I see the year on your journal entry, and I think back to that, I'm like, I had no idea. Honestly I had no idea that you were struggling that much. I don't know that anybody really did. [00:15:45] Jessica: Probably not. I think it got worse, progressively worse over time. It might have started off like that, but someone may not have known way back then because it went in and out of season, so sometimes I was like, oh, I'm doing better, and then it just came back. [00:15:59] Jessica: So I couldn't get rid of it and right now I feel like I'm in a good season, but I've talked to Jenny about this the other week. I think I talked to you too, Eric, and I remember I was just laying in bed and I could feel like a terror building up inside of me and like a fear. Oh, you think you're doing so good now, just wait, I'm gonna come back. It was like a voice taunting me, being like, remember me? I'm gonna come back, and I could just feel like this lurking in the corner of my heart and just I'm gonna come and get you. [00:16:27] Eric: Oh, and that's where I made the analogy. I was like, It's interesting that just cowering in the corner of your heart and not actually going anywhere. It's just it's content to kind of nip at your heels. [00:16:36] Jessica: Yeah. And I like when you mean it was like, yeah, it sounds like it's just cowering there. Yeah, maybe it is. I'm just gonna go kick it in the corner. [00:16:42] Jennifer: And at times when you're more tired or you're not feeling well, it really rears its ugly head. [00:16:50] Jessica: But what gave me peace, which is something I've been working through, I've been doing a lot better because I have learned through that to actually take all those feelings and those emotions to God. Even that feeling terrified. And as I was laying there, you know what the verse you quoted earlier? Psalm 23. I know God is with me. It's like I felt like God was saying fear not for I'm with you. [00:17:12] Eric: Yeah. Amen. [00:17:13] Jessica: So, the other type of depressions, because I've been not studying it but listening to other podcasts and other Christians talk about it, and there are different reasons why people struggle with depression. It could be psychological, there could be a hormone imbalance, there could be biological things, people struggle with bipolar or there's things in the family where people struggle with mental health. There's also people deal with depression because of physical stuff that happens in their life, like illness, exhaustion, and sometimes people may not wanna talk about this one, but it could be a spiritual aspect to it. If you have unconfessed sin. That also could lead to a form of depression because you are grieving the Holy Spirit and you're living in a way that's contrary to what God wants you to be, so you're not gonna be blessed with joy, but I've also had to learn this too. Like I may not be exactly sinning all the time when I'm depressed, but it doesn't always necessarily mean you are sinning. There could be just sadness that's there, and that is something you have to work through with God. Is there any way that I'm sinning against you? Or I'm feeling really sad today and I really don't know why. And it's just like talking through your emotions with God, and I think that's an aspect that I've had to learn. [00:18:30] Jennifer: Yeah. Jessica and I have been talking about this stuff too, and I mentioned earlier where it's separating depression because of unconfessed sin and having depression because of psychological or physical reasons. And I've really appreciated talking about that and being like, that's what helped me realize that depression is not necessarily sinning. There could be very real causes to it that have nothing to do with sin. That's important. [00:19:00] Jessica: And for mine? Yeah, I would say sometimes my depression did lead to sin because I just latched onto the feeling of my life has no meaning. Thing is I did not know how to get out of that. So it's also understanding when someone is actually dealing with whatever it is to help them walk through it. And know that they have the Holy Spirit. And you have the Holy Spirit. You guys can pray together about it and like you may not know how to exactly help them out of it, but just walking by them, which is what you did, Jenny, and Eric you did in some sense too actually, once I started talking more about it. You guys just walked beside me and you didn't reject me when I was going in the trenches. [00:19:39] Jennifer: And we've talked about this in other episodes where, as Jessica was saying, walking through her with that. As she was walking through it, I didn't really understand

depression at all, but I worked to be empathetic to her struggle and I was there to hear, listen and stuff. And what ended up happening was I started learning about depression and how it works. She was a blessing to me and I was a blessing to her. It's amazing. [00:20:03] Eric: Kinda leaning into what you guys are saying about being there for each other and listening. I've been listening to the book of Job on walks that I've been taking. I just wanted to get back into the book of Job because I really love its connection to struggles, depression, anxiety, and these things. Because Job goes through a lot. One of the things that I was really paying attention to was Job's friends. When they came to him, they initially sit with him, according to the book, they sat with him for seven days. That's a long time to sit with someone. Outside, I mean, who knows? Maybe they moved around and went inside other things. I don't know. But they, the point is that they were with Job for a period of time and they said nothing to him. They sat there with him in his grief. They even participated in his grief. I believe they tore their robes and sat with him. [00:20:55] Jessica: Yeah. I just listened to the passage this week. [00:20:57] Eric: That is such a great response to a friend who is going through depression! The sad thing is that oftentimes, like Job's friends, we go off the rails and we start telling people what they should be doing in ways that are, maybe insensitive. [00:21:15] Eric: Like I know when I listen to my wife sometimes if she's feeling sad. Inside it feels like she's going on and on, and on, and on, and I'm like, I got the solution right on my lips here, honey, I can really let you know how to help you, and then that comes out. [00:21:32] Jessica: Was that helpful? [00:21:33] Eric: No, it was not helpful. Like I mentioned in a previous episode about the poster on the wall. I don't think through that process of whether or not that's something I should be saying. I don't slow down and check my thoughts before they come out. When I do, things are better. Most of the time she talks herself through it and she's okay, or she asks me a bunch of questions, looking for answers and stuff like that, and encouragement. And that's when I can speak to her and carefully navigate through that. And again, it's not about not saying things. It's knowing one, when to say it. Two, you know what to say as you are listening. And three, making sure that tone is gentle and measured. Those three things, even like when people deal with me, those things are very important and it's not like when I'm depressed, I don't want people to say anything. [00:22:25] Jessica: We're not good at being gentle. [00:22:27] Eric: No, we're not. Our society is quite blunt and uncaring at times. [00:22:32] Jennifer: And unempathetic. [00:22:34] Jessica: But then people are like, but you need to be blunt sometimes. Yeah, but ask yourself, is this gonna be helpful to the person you're talking to? [00:22:40] Eric: And don't ask it from the standpoint of your mind of assuming it already is helpful. Literally step back and think slowly through it, and don't be quick to speak. God is not quick to speak and he is slow to anger and he is abounding in steadfast love and we need to be like that. [00:23:00] Jessica: Okay sometimes me as a depressed person, I do need people to rebuke me sometimes, but I think I receive it better from people who actually have walked beside me and know what I'm going through rather than someone who's an outsider and just gives an offhand comment, just do this. And it often just makes you wanna retrieve further into your shell rather than come out more and to work through it. Yeah so I think even thinking of myself when I don't understand someone else's struggle, it doesn't even have to be necessarily depression. It could be something completely different. It's just learning how to listen to that person's heart. Sometimes it's hard because like you just wanna help fix the situation and you're just like, I wanna give good advice, but sometimes I have to admit, I don't know how to help this person. And maybe the best thing to do in that situation is to pray with them because God knows how to help them better than you do. [00:23:56] Eric: Yep. [00:23:57] Jennifer: Have you ever been suicidal, Jessica? [00:24:00] Jessica: No. I don't think I've ever been suicidal, like really considering taking my own life. But I have this really, I guess, vivid memory that I have. This is one of my times when I went out east and I came back and I got sick with a cold soon afterwards. And I was back at my job and I hated it. I remember it was like in the summertime, I think, and I went outside on the porch and I looked up at the sky and I was praying, God, I don't wanna live anymore. [00:24:32] Jessica: And that felt terrible to admit that out loud because I'm just like, I'm supposed to be a Christian. I'm supposed to be the one who has life and have joy, and have peace and have all these things. And I was like, I don't have this right now and I don't know where to find it. and I was like, God, I'm supposed to find this in you, but it's like, I don't feel like I know you at all. All I can feel is this emptiness. And I was like, that doesn't make sense with what I know in my head. It was just really hard praying through that, and I didn't have an answer after that prayer either. It just kind of felt empty. That was also really hard, just really praying through that. [00:25:15] Eric: So, Jessica, as you were talking about that, I've been kind of debating in my own mind about sharing my own difficulties with, with those thoughts. Sometimes, well, not sometimes in marriage, spouses have arguments. Spouses have, I guess people call it fights, but I'm just, I'm really uncomfortable with the term, but spouses have fights and things can get really verbally heated and most of the time it's caused, at least in my experience, it's

caused by one of us saying something super insensitive to the other at the worst possible time. When I do that to Jenny, I have a very depressing response when I realize what I've done. I get depressed to the extreme, like an extreme swing in the negative direction to the point where in my mind, I'm asking, God, why am I even here? If I'm going to treat my wife in such a way, please take me from this world and replace me with somebody better. Not that I'm seriously going to act on said thoughts because I work my way through that by God's grace and Jenny and I work through things, but I get really depressed. [00:26:34] Eric: Early on in our marriage when I was battling with this even more, I had some self-harm things that I did and it wasn't good. By God's grace I worked through that and Jenny helped me through that and I am slowly getting a little bit better with that as far as getting depressed. [00:26:57] Eric: I still get really depressed when I don't treat my wife as I should, emotionally or mentally or verbally and such. I still need to work on that. The times I'm catching myself are increasing and so I'm thankful for that, but I still have a long way to go. [00:27:14] Eric: Working through that has been very difficult. Even like most recently, like just a number of days ago we were arguing over something. I had said something really insensitive and Jenny was dealing with some stress and talking to me about it. I was dealing with stress and I didn't want to hear about her stress and things devolved. It was rough and I got super, super, super depressed. It didn't take us long to talk through it and come out the other side from it. We have put in a lot of work to do that and we're still putting in work to do that, but... [00:27:49] Jessica: That's good. [00:27:50] Eric: Just talking through. It's so important. [00:27:52] Jessica: It is. Thank you for sharing that. I didn't know that about you. And thank you for your vulnerability. [00:27:57] Eric: Yeah, and I'm, I'm learning to talk with more people about stuff like this. We have some really dear friends of ours, actually dear friends of yours as well, Christian and Nastasha. [00:28:07] Jessica: Shout out. [00:28:08] Eric: Yep. Turns out Christian and I struggle with a lot of things that are very similar. One night when Jenny and, I think you were there too possibly, and Christian was going over kind of a list of things that he struggles with and I'm hearing him and I, after he was done, I'm like, I struggle with those exact same things. [00:28:25] Eric: And he is like, we should connect to encourage each other. And we still have yet to do that because life has been absolutely nuts since that point. But it was so great and actually a relief to hear another man struggles with the same things that I struggle with in his relationship with his wife. [00:28:45] Jessica: Which is why we're doing a podcast because we want you to know that you're not alone out there in your struggles. That's why we wanna do a bunch of different topics too. [00:28:53] Eric: Bingo. [00:28:54] Jessica: Jenny, we're straying off topic. [00:28:56] Eric: Yep. [00:28:56] Jessica: Can you help us get back? [00:28:57] Eric: We're straying. Get us back to the main point! [00:29:01] Jennifer: Jessica, did you ever get to a point where your depression was unbearable? [00:29:05] Jessica: Yep. We're gonna talk about that. So this was a few months ago, last October, November, when it got really bad to the point where I was burning out, and I honestly just wanted to burn out because I didn't wanna do anything anymore. [00:29:27] Jennifer: Can you elaborate? [00:29:29] Jessica: So I think I mentioned earlier how my job really put a lot of pressure on me. That actually started, not last fall, but the previous fall, where our company went through a restructure and the routes got unbearably long. That just really took a physical toll on my body, which I told myself it wasn't that bad, and I had you coming along saying, yeah it is. [00:29:54] Eric: Along with a lot of people telling you about how your job actually is really good. [00:29:59] Jessica: Yeah. [00:30:00] Eric: Even though they've never done a postal route before. [00:30:03] Jessica: Yeah. It kind of brought me back, I think, into a bad mental state. And, as I said, the physical actually affects like everything else in your life, which I also didn't wanna acknowledge that I wasn't eating as properly as I should, even though people was like, oh, you're still eating properly. And I was like, well actually I wasn't. I'm able to eat better now because I'm on a vehicle route now. [00:30:22] Jessica: Thank the Lord that he provided me with a route that's way easier and manageable for me. But I was starting going back into my sugar addiction really bad, which it's part of my coping mechanism. I also was napping a lot and scrolling on social media. Those are my, I don't like talking about it, but those are my way I try to comfort myself. I try to numb my emotions or I try to like just get away from the deadness inside of me, my coping, and even though I know this is not what God wants me to do, that's literally how I was coping with it, and I know that doesn't help with depression. Oh just pray about it. Just read your Bible. And sometimes at the end of the workday I was just so exhausted and I didn't have the capacity to do anything. And it just made everything worse. [00:31:16] Jennifer: I remember you had reduced fellowship because of the job. [00:31:18] Jessica: Yeah, it was reduced fellowship and people were like, oh, we are not seeing you as much anymore. So I don't think God didn't let that happen for a reason. I believe I actually had to go to that low point in my life because God was really exposing a lot of, I mean, it is sinful tendencies, but also a lot of brokenness in me that I knew I had a problem with, but he was calling to my attention that he brought me to a place where I had to come to terms

with it. So there are things that I realized I'm a people pleaser. I'm a perfectionist. I base my relationship with God on my performance and I didn't realize how bad I was doing that, and I did not know how to rest in God. I didn't really know what that meant because, how could God love me if I'm this way? [00:32:10] Jessica: I may not actually say that it's like, but Jessica, you're in a church that teaches all these great things. You can know these things maybe in your head, but you're not living them out and you're not actually deeply believing them in your heart. And God brought me to a place where I had to confront these areas that I really was struggling in, and the thing is, I still struggle with them, but, I would say healing from deeply rooted lies that I believed about myself and my relationship with God. [00:32:43] Eric: Also during that time, you took a step back from some ministry at church. You wanna elaborate on that a little bit? [00:32:50] Jessica: So that was because I was struggling. I also didn't wanna admit I was struggling that bad. And then there was one Saturday, I have to do all my meal prep, my laundry, all my chores. And then I was also like scheduling for hospitality ministry. I was also prepping, I think for toddlers class. And Jenny's like, I'm exhausted looking at you right now. I was like, what are you talking about? This is literally what I do. And she's like, I think you need to take a step back. You need to tone it down and I felt awful stepping back from ministry. That's also has to do with like your performance too. I feel like my worth is in doing these things, and God's like, no, that's not what it's all about. And during that time too, where I stepped back. That was last November, I decided to do that, but also I remember there's one day I came home and I think I didn't go to work that day. Karen and Laura were outta the house and I just called in and I just basically had a day where I was just crying because I was so tired and Jenny, you happened to, was it, did you walk in the house that day? I think you walked in on me on that day and she was just there for me. She didn't even know what was going on. She's just like, uh oh. And that happened a week before we went on strike. A lot of people were like worried about it. But for me that was a break that I needed to reorientate my life and really being able to rest with God, I would say, and be able to bear my emotions with God and realizing, yeah, this job is actually not doing favors for me. I was able to actually get back into community and visit other believers during that time. I was also able to open up to more people about my struggles, and it was actually beneficial. That was also really hard for me because I felt like God was telling me, you can't do this by yourself. You need to open up to more people. Jenny was one of the first people I opened up to and now I have a small group of people that really know about it and now I'm talking about it on a

podcast. [00:35:00] Eric: Which is really incredible to see how God has worked in your life that way. I think it's wonderful to see where you've come from, and I know you're still working through it today, but you have come through a long way on this, and God is really sanctifying you through this and you are understanding him in new ways that you didn't understand him before. [00:35:31] Jessica: That's true. [00:35:31] Eric: So it's just a beautiful thing to see this, I would say. [00:35:34] Jennifer: Yep. So how are you doing now, Jessica? [00:35:38] Jessica: Well, I feel like I've been doing better overall and I have really seen how God has worked in my life and really changing, I would say, old thought patterns into new ones. So praise God for that. And I don't think it's over yet. I do feel like I will at some point probably dip back into darkness, but it's also kind of less of a scarier thing now that I have friends who I know will be willing to walk beside me through that darkness. [00:36:15] Eric: Praise the Lord. That's good. [00:36:16] Jessica: So for example, I have invited people into my life that they can ask me how I'm doing and they'd be, no, really how you're doing? Instead of just being, oh yeah, I'm fine. They can be like, especially Jenny. No you're not. But I've also learned how to be more honest with the, I'm not doing fine. There was one Sunday that Christian asked how I was doing and I was like, not good today. He's like, oh, I'm sorry to hear that. And having people aware that there's gonna be days where I'm not doing so great. Even if they may not know how to help me, that they're praying for me. Also, I think I talked about this with Andre. We've talked about it at Crossroads one time, how, you know, we just come to church and we just put on a mask, and we pretend that everything's okay. As Christians, I don't think we should have that church culture. We need to be able to be more open with one another. Not to the point where, like, oh, I'm just gonna, Jenny has this problem thinking she's complaining about everything. It's not to complain. It's so that we are bearing with each other and our burdens and that we are encouraging one another with biblical truth and pointing each other to Jesus and what our hope is. You know? [00:37:36] Jennifer: Yes. When things are going well, we can rejoice with each other, and when things are not going so well, we can be there for each other and help build one another up and remind each other of God's goodness and promises. [00:37:49] Eric: Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. [00:37:53] Jennifer: I love that verse. [00:37:54] Jessica: Absolutely. [00:37:55] Eric: I love that verse. [00:37:56] Jennifer: At the end of the day, as much as it sucks going through depression, I'm still working on how to talk about it. Having trials are good and God helps us grow through having trials, even though it sucks while we're going through it, but that's how we grow. And even though I sometimes wish I don't have trials of depression, it's a good thing in the long run. [00:38:20] Eric: Depression is a sign we have pain and suffering in this world, and that pain and suffering is real. Simply reading the Psalms makes this clear. Psalm 5:1, 64:1 and 142:1 are just a few examples of what are referred to as Psalms of Lament. The men that wrote these psalms were experiencing depression, anxiety, and fear of what was happening to them. We still experience those same feelings today, thousands of years later, and I think it's really important that we read the Psalms for that reason. [00:38:55] Jessica: Yep. [00:38:56] Eric: I love the Psalms for that reason. When I'm feeling down and depressed, I repeatedly go back to those Psalms and then I will couple those with Psalms of praise as well to get both sides of it. The psalmist going through the darkness and coming out the other side to praise God in the end. [00:39:14] Jessica: I find it's helpful that there are artists have put those psalms into like song lyrics that you can actually sing to yourself. [00:39:21] Jennifer: We'll go into some songs in the next episode. [00:39:24] Eric: Yeah. I'm looking forward to that. [00:39:26] Jennifer: In the next episode, we'll continue our discussion, looking at the cultural and church expectations, deeper biblical reflections and practical encouragement surrounding depression. [00:39:37] Jessica: For many Christians, depression can feel like an impossible battle, one that's misunderstood by others and even by ourselves. [00:39:44] Jennifer: The church often struggles to talk about it, leaving many believers, feeling alone, ashamed, or even questioning their faith. But depression isn't a sign that God has abandoned us, and it isn't always a result of sin. [00:39:57] Eric: Thanks for joining us on the Broken and Redeemed podcast. We hope this conversation encouraged you and made you think. [00:40:04] Jessica: If you enjoy this episode, make sure to subscribe and leave a review. It really helps others find the show. [00:40:09] Jennifer: And if you wanna see what's coming next, follow us on social media. [00:40:13] Eric: Until then, remember to seek truth, extend grace, and stay rooted in Christ. We'll see you next episode!