TBC Flashback - Dr. Todd Dewett: License to Lead의 전체 녹취록

just learning more about your insights and especially um some of the stories from LiveHeart, one of the things we always like to do for our listeners is explain what Dr. 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:40.800 DeWitt's reference profile is. 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:43.120 Uh, Todd is a Venturer. 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:48.960 And Todd, when you took the assessment from the predictive index and, you know, we sent you your results. 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:53.360 Just give us a highlight about your impression and your thoughts about the results. 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:54.560 I was really impressed. 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:56.080 Uh, and I wasn't expecting to be. 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:57.759 I mean, I'm just to be blunt with you. 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:05.199 Um, so I'm an old school guy with some personality training back in the day that really focused on the giants uh of yesterday that are still popular. 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:12.000 And I've seen lots of flavors of assessments out there and uh of different types with different amounts of research backing them up. 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.919 I I took yours, I was excited too, because I know you and what you're up to. 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:26.159 Um, and I didn't know what to expect because it was such an frankly easy, small amount of time put into that that I was thinking to myself, okay, and this is supposed to be valid, but how good could it be? 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:27.599 And then the results came out. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:32.479 I was like, I'll be damn, this thing really kind of got me in a very small amount of time. 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:35.280 And that was very, uh, very fun to share with you. 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.120 It didn't take much time to do this. 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:40.960 And yet, and I know this because I've been tested on different types of things over time. 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:48.159 I know that what it's saying about me, just based on self-reflection and based on a whole bunch of uh assessments over the years, is quite accurate. 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:49.120 And that's scary. 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:51.199 That and that it's that's really impressive. 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:52.319 We get that a lot. 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:57.120 We get that a lot from people saying, What is this wizardry that you presented to me? 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:58.719 But uh no, that's good to hear. 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:05.120 And and as a venturer, um, Sarah, you want to just highlight a couple of things on the venture and what that profile tells us? 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:11.360 Yeah, the venture is a self-starter, self-motivator, risk taker with a strong goal orientation. 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:12.400 Does that sound about right? 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:13.280 Perfect, Dr. 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:13.599 Todd. 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:14.159 Oh, yeah. 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:22.720 And we would say that signature to how you work, uh, you're outspoken, frank, authoritative in terms of communication. 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:29.279 You you may not uh have fun or enjoy delegating major authority or responsibility in your world. 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:36.319 Um, but the details, yes, the details can be delegated, but you know, the outcome of things is something you're you're gonna watch closely. 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:39.439 You are an innovative and creative problem solver. 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:43.519 And um, at times you may value your own judgment over others. 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:45.120 Would that ever be the case? 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:47.920 I definitely have confidence in my views. 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:49.120 There you go. 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:57.600 Yeah, but what's great about the venture profile is you're one to drive change and you're not uncomfortable challenging the status quo. 00:04:57.920 --> 00:04:59.360 I think you just nailed it. 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:03.600 Didn't uh because I am frank, I would tell you where it wasn't quite accurate. 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.079 No, that was a really nice summary, for better or for worse. 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:15.839 And I'd like to tell all your folks listening uh, you know, it's just useful for people who aren't used to thinking about breaking down personality preferences and such into a vocabulary. 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:25.360 It's a useful place to start thinking about why the team does what it does, not because one profile, mine versus yours versus John's, is good or bad, right or wrong. 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:26.720 We are different. 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:27.439 That's all. 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:27.680 Right. 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:32.720 Understanding how to articulate that makes it, well, a little bit easier to start working productively together. 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:35.199 That's where the value of these tools really comes from. 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:44.639 I was really impressed that the tool actually noted the uh time for introspection, because just to use the classic extrovert-introvert thing that gets tested on a lot of these tools. 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:49.199 Uh, most people who interact with me go, Todd was a very effective extroverted type of person. 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:50.319 Uh, it's not true. 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:53.680 I have I'm right on the borderline, often leaning towards introvert. 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.759 And I have learned because communication is a skill set that you can learn. 00:05:57.759 --> 00:05:58.000 Yeah. 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.600 I've learned when I need to be doctor do it, how to do that. 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:02.560 That's a skill. 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:09.680 But my normal preference, I am as comfortable or more being introspective, alone, thoughtful, quiet than I am on stage. 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:10.399 You know what I mean? 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:11.519 Oh, that's amazing. 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:11.920 Yeah. 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.079 Thank you very much, Sara, for that. 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:30.160 But one of

the things that I think really stands out in my experience with Todd's body of work is your capacity to drive change and challenge the status quo, and specifically when it comes to how people lead and develop other people in that capacity. 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:35.040 So, Todd, would love to hear about the work that you're doing around leadership. 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:40.959 You've said you've got a story out of Live Hard that you think would be helpful to help people avoid those bosshole blunders. 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:44.639 We just want to turn it over to you and tell us, tell us what's going on. 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:45.199 Sure. 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:49.120 Well, I mean, what's going on, I think, is really well known by a lot of us at this point. 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:52.879 It is a time people are battling uncertainty. 00:06:52.879 --> 00:07:05.600 And what we know, no matter what the stressor is, what we know is that people at work under abnormal levels of stress tend to start making certain errors, certain behavioral shifts that are explainable but not productive. 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.120 Explainable, uh, for example, because we become more risk averse. 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:10.399 But is that always useful? 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:11.279 Generally, no. 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:14.480 Uh, when you're more risk averse than our baseline, it becomes a problem. 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:18.079 People notice it, people uh start to hold information more. 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:21.120 Managers in particular get less communicative. 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:29.600 They start to sit in the office more, analyze their way out of this, they think, and they start to have shorter tempers, less sharing, less use of explanations. 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:36.399 All the things we know that are good and healthy in a team for leaders to share tend to become challenged and less common. 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:43.360 So, my job as a full-time uh agitator is to people not to do those things. 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:45.360 That's that's that's all I do, really. 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:53.120 Um, because some people have no managers perfect, no uh full-time speaker educator guys perfect, none of us are. 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:57.920 And as a result, when times get challenging, some of our deficits are pronounced. 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:02.480 So the story that's in the book, there's actually several, very excited about the book. 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:03.759 A lot of people are enjoying the story. 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.839 Stories, stories just touch people because emotions are every bit as important as logic. 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:14.399 So now I was reflecting um many months ago on the last, I had one more story I wanted to put in, and I thought of something. 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:22.079 I thought of an old MBA student I remembered calling me one day back when I had a real job, and she said, Um, I'm so-and-so. 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:23.439 Uh, you remember me? 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:24.720 I said, Yeah, how are you? 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:26.319 And she said, Can we have lunch sometime? 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.240 She worked in the same city where I was still working. 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:32.080 And I'd like to uh get your thoughts on some things that are going on with me professionally. 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:33.120 And I said, sure. 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.120 Um, and I was, you know, I'm still privileged to have many of these types of conversations. 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:42.000 And so I met her and we had lunch, Mexican joint in the Midwest somewhere. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:53.120 And what she told me was hard to hear, not because it was new, but because I was live in person with her and it was emotional for her, and she started crying while she's telling me this story. 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:54.799 This is this is what she told me. 00:08:54.799 --> 00:09:00.159 She said she works in finance for in this town that was a well-known financial uh house, I'll just say. 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:28.080 And the her boss, and she's a newly minted MBA, smart person, and uh her boss was a person from a certain generation who, for better or worse, uh had certain views about men and women in leadership, especially in finance, and was convinced that uh women weren't going to be great leaders in finance and was not shy about saying it publicly in general at a meeting or walking down the hall or to the face of a few women with whom he worked, over whom he was a leader. 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:37.679 Uh so she started telling me examples of things he'd said to her uh in earshot of everyone, because you know there's no secrets in Cube Land, everyone hears everything at work, right? 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:39.919 Um, or pretty much that's true. 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:42.799 And this had progressed over several years. 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:50.639 Her feeble attempts to give feedback, like, hey, I'm not sure you're understanding how you're speaking to me, and you don't know that you're being offensive. 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:53.279 Those efforts went nowhere and made things worse. 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:54.720 How dare you speak to me that way? 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:55.840 was the response she got. 00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:59.200 And over a couple years, uh, she realized uh a few things. 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:01.600 One, she was starting to feel broken and not good. 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:05.440 And it just it's amazing the power that leaders have to help you or hurt you. 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:07.840 It's amazing the power they have every day. 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:08.480 Yes, yes. 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:17.679 This is emerging as an area of study because we all know that your mental self, your physical self, your spiritual self, these things are all related and impact each other. 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:25.200 We know this, and work is the biggest, almost unexplored in some ways, uh, some negative

impact threat to those things. 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:26.320 Work is often killing us. 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:30.080 Jeffrey Pfeffer out of Stanford put a book out recently that that speaks to that effect. 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:33.440 And it's really shocking the numbers uh when you think about it. 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:34.320 But it's pretty obvious. 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:38.879 We spend so many hours there and we spend them under stress doing things we might otherwise not do. 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:41.840 You would expect adverse health things to happen as a result. 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:44.159 This woman was giving me her version of that. 00:10:44.159 --> 00:11:04.559 She had, over a couple of years of failing to write this ship, this relationship with this person, she found herself uh driving slower to work, driving different routes to explore and waste a few minutes before she got to work, sitting in the parking lot before she went in, sometimes in tears, because she had to volunteer to walk through that door and go subject herself to that. 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:07.279 She also realized over time that it wasn't just her. 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.399 So that was a kind of a good thing, but it didn't help that much. 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:17.440 It was women in general, a few in particular that were his go-to targets for reasons that weren't clear to her, other than maybe opportunity. 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:23.759 Um, and so we talked at that lunch about what to do about that and how to cope and how to talk to her husband who was tired of hearing about it. 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:26.799 And then, you know, relationships are fun at work and at home. 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:27.679 Uh, and we talked. 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:40.320 And it was therapeutic to talk because it's always therapeutic to have a good listener, and maybe someone could help you think about some options to consider, but there was no magic solution to be offered, as is often the case when you meet a bosshole. 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:42.159 It's just not the case. 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:48.879 There are things to consider, ways to cope, and options to try, all of which have risks and costs. 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:53.200 Um, and I didn't feel great because we didn't find a wonderful solution. 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:55.759 I gave her some things to think about, which was useful. 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:57.679 Um, fast forward many years. 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:03.120 I finished writing this book, I remember that story, so I went ahead and I included that, a version of that as one of the stories. 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:09.600 And I reach out anytime I put someone in a book and I tell them, hey, I'm you remember that time we talked about the is it okay? 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:12.559 And a couple times I've mentioned people by name, and sometimes I keep it generic. 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:14.960 This one's sensitive because it's a boss hole situation. 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:15.279 Yeah. 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:24.720 I don't mention names in companies or anything, but I did reach out because we're connected and tell her um, FYI, you are the person I'm referring to in that story. 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:26.720 I thought you'd want to know, and she's so excited. 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:28.480 And weeks passed, she's got the book. 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:32.320 Hey, I love the book, and she sends me notes back and gave me the final chapter. 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:36.159 Uh this amazes me because it's not in the story because I didn't know this had happened. 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:40.399 She finally so wait, that that kind of makes this exclusive. 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:41.200 Is that correct? 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:42.000 That's correct. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:42.799 This podcast? 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:43.279 Okay. 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.679 I just I just want to point that out to our listeners. 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:46.720 We are cutting edge here. 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:47.279 So, Dr. 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:48.240 Todd, go ahead. 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.320 Yeah, man, you are the first in the world to hear the actual end of the story. 00:12:52.320 --> 00:13:03.519 Uh, after she kind of went numb and thought, this is my fate and I can deal with it and feel disgusted or quit, which would be a big risk because the opportunities in that town weren't great. 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:07.360 It was a smaller town, and she had a juicy, wonderful opportunity. 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:18.879 Um, she finally, uh, against the odds, banded together with some other uh targets of this person and did the whole group approach thing, call it an intervention, call it what you want. 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:24.799 And after the umpteenth time, they finally, which is uh brave as anything, just brave, frankly. 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:31.600 Yeah, they finally, she's not sure exactly why it was this time, the seventh time that you know she had talked to him. 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:42.720 He finally somehow opened up and realized that people were not enjoying him, were misinterpreting him, or not, were interpreting him right sometimes and not liking the way he was talking about them and talking about women. 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.240 And somehow that hit him. 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:47.279 And she swears, and I I knew her pretty well back in the day. 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.480 She swears that that this was a wake-up call for him. 00:13:50.480 --> 00:14:02.080 And he didn't want the rest of his life to be him aware now, caring for the first time about others really having problems with them that mattered to him at least a meaningful amount, whereas it used to not matter at all. 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:06.879 And as a result, he started to change his behaviors towards people. 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:10.000 He's not some ideal, there's no ribbon on the end of the story. 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:10.320 Right. 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:16.960 He's not some

genius relationship pro now, but the worst behaviors all went bye-bye. 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.919 The willingness to be a little more quiet and listen increased. 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:23.759 These were massively important changes to this person's behavior. 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:28.480 And she swears uh that her and her friends were the biggest explanation for why this happened. 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:29.919 Did something else in his life happen? 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:30.639 I don't know. 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:35.200 But she did have a happy ending, still working there, been promoted several times since I talked to her. 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:35.679 Really? 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:45.919 I still ahead of her and still a boss of hers, and uh apparently leads people fairly effectively today, whereas uh 15, 20 years ago he was a big problem. 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:46.879 How do you like that? 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.559 People can grow, old dogs can learn new tricks. 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:54.960 And isn't that the whole point of what we're trying to put out there? 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.320 Is he, you know, we don't want anyone to change who they are. 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:03.519 We want them to adapt in such a way that who they naturally are doesn't hurt other people. 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:04.000 Right. 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:08.960 We just want to we want to be better at understanding and optimizing the people we're responsible for. 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:10.240 What a great story. 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.840 Yeah, it really is, because they're they don't all have good endings, and this one does. 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:14.320 Yeah. 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:22.960 The punchline there, uh, which we briefly talked about offline when we were just catching up, is that it's amazing how people aren't aware of. 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.799 Now, if they are aware of and they don't have empathy for, that's a different issue altogether. 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:29.279 Mostly people lack awareness. 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:36.559 Most people don't know this, but uh, most people, for example, who are jerks of any variety uh are meaningfully unaware of their status as a jerk at work. 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:41.039 They're just not tuned in to understand that, they're not wired naturally to get that. 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.200 Uh, and so you have to build awareness. 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:44.159 Now, is that easy? 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:44.399 No. 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:45.279 Does it always work? 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:47.919 No, but it is the route forward that makes the most sense. 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:56.320 Try and help people reduce the gap between what they think about themselves and how the typical person observing them every day actually thinks about them. 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.320 Now, which one's true doesn't matter. 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:06.559 If you want to get along at work, you've just got to make sure that you close the gap that stands between us in communication so that we can get along better. 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:10.159 This guy needed to have that tough curtain pulled back. 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.759 Um, I'll be honest with you, I've had this happen a million times. 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:17.600 Um, thinking just of another example I wrote about somewhere else years ago. 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.399 A boss told me I was brought in, do some consulting. 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.159 Hey, we got issues, uh, do it. 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:23.200 I got your name from so-and-so. 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:23.679 Come on in. 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:28.559 One of the first things I did was interview some key managers before interviewing their teams. 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:30.960 And the boss, one of the bosses pulled me aside. 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:32.159 Hey, I'm so glad you're here. 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.960 Uh, I mean, I'll tell you what, my team's really not the problem here. 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.759 Um, we all get along quite swimmingly. 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:39.120 And uh, but I'm glad you're here. 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.840 I can't wait to hear what you uncover around here, et cetera, et cetera. 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:45.200 And he seemed sincere to me, and I can smell insincerity a mile away. 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:47.679 He seemed like a really sincere fellow. 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:49.919 And then I went and I talked to his team. 00:16:49.919 --> 00:17:02.799 And what I learned, and this is common, not uncommon, what I learned is that there is a gap between what he perceived to be their understanding of life at work every day and what they actually felt about him and about life at work every day. 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:03.279 Okay. 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:06.160 And they were meaningfully uh unhappy. 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:13.599 I'm just making this up as a concrete example about why you have to get down into the details of being kind to people and thinking about them, not just you. 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:18.720 Um, his team felt that he was impersonal, distra distant, and aloof. 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:25.680 His team specifically mentioned that they couldn't stand how on Mondays he didn't say, Hey, start of a new week, how you doing? 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:26.720 Was your weekend okay? 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:27.680 What'd you guys do? 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:28.559 Anything fun? 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:33.839 Uh, they couldn't stand that on Friday he didn't say, Tough week, man, you guys pulled it out. 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:35.200 I appreciate the effort so much, man. 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:36.160 Do you deserve a weekend? 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:36.960 Have a great weekend. 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:40.400 He didn't do those little things at the beginning and the ending of a week. 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:43.359 And to them, that was very significant. 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:48.160 So, what we know from research is that managers tend to get

task-focused sometimes in a problematic way. 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:58.160 And we know that employees who are not leaders tend to get relationship-focused, vibe, culture-focused in a sometimes problematic way, meaning we need balance and the two groups don't often see the same. 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:10.160 Uh, so my job is to give bosses to get over themselves, if you will, and remember that a whole lot of little things that they might not need anymore themselves are still of paramount importance to the people who report to them. 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:22.480 I think that right there is such a critical component because we talk about how organizations wrongly promote individual contributors into a management position, and they're not prepared for it. 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:37.359 They may not even want to do it, but what they think is necessary to be an effective manager or supervisor, somehow they abandon what they needed as an individual contributor, somebody to develop, some somebody who will develop me, help me grow, provide guidance. 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:44.240 Sometimes just leave me alone because I'm off doing my work, but the right amount of touch, somehow that just vaporizes. 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:49.519 It's it's funny that you would say that because it that reminds me of an aspect of the story in Live Hard, I was just talking about. 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:53.680 It really is, I think it was called a license to lead, if I remember what I titled that chapter. 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:55.359 And the the premise was simple. 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:57.839 And this is, I mean this genuinely, even if it sounds silly. 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:01.440 You gotta have a license in the States and most places to do almost anything. 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:03.519 You want to be a doctor, you gotta get your training, got to get your license. 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.599 You want to be an accountant, you gotta get your training, you gotta get your license. 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.200 You want to be a taxidermist, you gotta get your training, you gotta get your license. 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:14.880 You want to be a kid in a neighborhood selling lemonade to your neighbors in many places. 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.119 This is in the news all the time, every year. 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:22.480 You will see kids get tickets because you have to have a license to sell lemonade in many communities. 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:23.839 I'm not kidding, I'm making this up. 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:36.480 But if you want to be a leader, a person with a very real impact on others' lives every single hour of the day that they're together, you need jack squat. 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:41.519 You need a party and someone with power to say you're now the boss of that group. 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.799 I find that reality very suspect and problematic. 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:50.880 There is not yet a universal agreed-upon leadership credential, and I think that's that's true,

and there's reasons for that. 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:56.480 But boy, can we do a whole heck of a lot better than we do given the powers that leaders wield every day. 00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:59.119 That's absolutely that's so powerful. 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:19.759 I was we had a uh conversation with another subject matter expert, and we didn't really talk about this, but one of the things that I thought would be a great question to ask somebody who's being considered for a leadership or a management position is based on the people that you've overseen and for whom you've for whom you've had responsibility, what has your turnover rate been? 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:32.799 I mean, quite frankly, she gave an example of where one particular manager was just mean and vindictive and ended up firing everybody on the team. 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.440 I mean, there was a hundred percent turnover on this team. 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:44.960 Well, the likelihood that every single member of that team is really a poor performer or at fault statistically is sort of unrealistic. 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:47.759 I mean, what does that say about the manager themselves? 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.319 I mean, I again I think that's a great point, Todd. 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.200 But you know, it's it's a tall order, isn't it? 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:56.160 For you know, to be effective in that leadership role. 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:56.720 That's it. 00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.279 It's beyond a tall, if people don't see it coming. 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.640 Wait, wait, you just I apologize for interrupting, you just said a mouthful. 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.319 Uh people never see it coming. 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:08.000 The number one reason people are promoted is because of functional task skill at some level. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.400 Hey, they were good accountants, they'd be great at running the team. 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.400 No, that is completely erroneous logic. 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.720 It's just it doesn't follow that one is something and thus could lead a team of people doing it. 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:18.079 They're very different skills. 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:27.200 Um, so I had the unique pleasure of being 10 years in a classroom with MBA students, and I got to watch lots of people go from being non-managers to managers or managers to executives. 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:32.319 The leap from non-manager to manager is the most jarring because you just don't know what the heck you're getting into. 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:41.599 Uh, and the fact that you were so smart yesterday with spreadsheets and who knows what, uh, or maybe you're an engineer and you're just amazing at understanding how to solve problems dealing with certain metals, or who knows. 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:42.960 I heard a million things like that. 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:48.240 It means nothing as to how well you can understand and help people do that very thing. 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.519 Leaving them and doing the job are completely different. 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:59.039 Now, even if you're brilliant at finance or great metallurgist or whatever you might be, now communication is everything. 00:21:59.039 --> 00:21:59.759 Understanding. 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:07.680 Self-motivation, motivating others, understanding conflict management, how to engender and manage the process of change we often have to deal with. 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:15.680 These now are the core skills that will determine whether or not you're successful, even if you were the best financier ever before your promotion. 00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:20.799 In the world we live in, we talk about the head, the heart, and the briefcase, you know, the whole person. 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.680 And the research you referenced is spot on. 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:29.920 People are promoted to a leadership role because of their briefcase, most often, because of the skills and abilities they have. 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:39.039 But we have no way to understand what's in their heart or how their behavioral wiring and their cognitive ability may impact their success in this role. 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:41.279 So we we got to consider all those things. 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:42.720 I have a question for you, Dr. 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:43.279 Todd. 00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:53.440 When it comes to appreciating or understanding the gap between how I might see myself and how other people see me, you know, there's there's a necessary component to shift that. 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.119 And it would be feedback. 00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:59.519 Why is it getting and receiving feedback so challenging for people? 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:00.720 Oh, especially leaders. 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.440 I mean, it's a super question, and there's a lot of answers to it. 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.039 I'll give you a couple of brief thoughts. 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:13.839 One is that we all have different personalities that give us different predispositions to understanding its importance, to feeling good about finding it, feeling good about trying to learn from it. 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:16.400 We all, some of us love it, some of us hate it, some of us are in between. 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:17.680 So that's one that's one thing. 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:19.200 And then there's the environment that we're in. 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:20.000 How busy are we? 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.599 Really busy, almost all of us. 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:27.839 And then there's how much is that valued and modeled by the systems around us, our boss, our performance management system, et cetera. 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.599 So all of these are big factors. 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:34.160 Uh, all I like to tell people is don't you ever think that you've had enough feedback. 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:37.200 I don't want you to get paranoid, but don't think you've had enough. 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:39.920 Don't think

that you know yourself because your situation's always changing. 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.960 New clients, new customers, new vendors, new people at work. 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:48.400 And that that means the average view of you is always shifting because they see you differently than you see yourself. 00:23:48.640 --> 00:24:02.240 And going back to what you said earlier, I mean, I think it was the Stanford Business Advisory Council uh four or five years ago that said, without question, the number one competency for effective leadership is self-awareness. 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.480 It is absolutely at the top of the list. 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:12.799 There are other important competencies, but if you don't have that and you're not willing to seek it out, you will struggle as a leader and a developer of people. 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:13.920 There's no question. 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:21.039 I like to tell people a big part of whether or not you're gonna be successful if you're gonna play the management game is how much you can be okay with being uncomfortable. 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:34.480 Because if you want to think about, if you want to think about getting feedback, if you want to think about trying to build self-awareness, if you want to think about having a learning orientation for your whole career, not just for a couple of years, all of those are ways to think about becoming uncomfortable. 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:39.119 And if you can gain comfort with but being a little uncomfortable, that is a skill. 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:43.599 You can get better at it through practice and through um intentional training. 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:44.480 You can do this. 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:46.640 That's going to serve you so well. 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:53.759 So, along with what you've already shared as powerful tips for managers and leaders, what other things would you suggest? 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:59.759 What are top what are the top things on your list for you know preventing bosshole blunders? 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.319 Maybe I'll give you two quick responses to that. 00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:03.759 Um, thanks for the open-ended thing. 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:04.960 Well, but I guess it's dangerous. 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.279 I'm a professional speaker and you're gonna give me an open-ended question. 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:08.000 You're you're brave. 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:12.480 We can we can make this a two-episode podcast, too. 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:13.039 Yeah, go ahead. 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:13.839 One part two. 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:16.160 Two ideas pop up immediately. 00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:21.680 The first is a summary from a book uh I wrote that people still enjoy years ago called The Little Black Book of Leadership. 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.839 And uh one little blurb I put in there was the response to a question. 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:26.960 Hey, I get this all the time. 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:29.039 Hey, uh, you're supposed to know a lot about leadership. 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:30.160 You've been out there for a while. 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:32.000 Tell me, I boil it down. 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:32.880 What's it really all about? 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:37.359 If you just got a minute, what's the one, two, three things I gotta do, gotta know to be effective? 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:42.160 Uh, I don't like doing this because I think you should care about a much bigger picture and get it to get some depth. 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:43.599 Having said that, here's my answer. 00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:48.400 You have to strive hard to reduce ambiguity when you're leading people to be fair and to stay positive. 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:50.319 To reduce ambiguity is huge. 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:58.400 And everything we say, we write, or behaviors we show people, we're either helping them understand something better or we're making them feel more ambiguity. 00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:05.440 Think of a core goal for any leader to reduce ambiguity through explanation and words mostly. 00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:07.119 That's just a beautiful reminder. 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.279 So reduce ambiguity, be fair. 00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:11.039 I'm talking about a meritocracy. 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:16.319 We still struggle with this, that's why I list it, but it should be an above-the-board, transparent meritocracy. 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:24.799 That's fairness, not fairness of distribution of outcomes, but fairness of opportunity and fairness in terms of all of us getting a positive work environment. 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:25.599 That's fair. 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:27.599 And finally, strive to stay positive. 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:33.200 Just choosing that perspective and then sharing it with others is a core talk about talk about being healthy. 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.079 That is a core skill for any leader because it's such a hard job. 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:37.440 It has to be a core skill. 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:40.720 So that's my first generic, honest answer to what people should do. 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:47.680 But then my second answer for you is in reference to this horrible thing we've all been enduring called COVID, this pandemic. 00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:51.519 Uh, the truth is, I like to be honest, it's one of the things I think I'm known for. 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:52.880 But there's no, there's not simple answers. 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:54.960 A lot of people in my shoes will sell you simple answers. 00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:56.240 And I don't like that, frankly. 00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:57.200 I like honesty. 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:06.559 The truth is there aren't a lot of simple answers that are going to help teams who have just lost two members and the budget got crunched, and everyone's worried about being employed next week, et cetera, et cetera. 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:11.359 Because so many versions of that, and there's no magic answer for you. 00:27:11.359 -->

00:27:15.200 I can tell you this, and I love to tell bosses this in the last year. 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:18.559 Even if that's true, you can still do good. 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:25.039 Number one, assume they are all as stressed or more stressed than you and be open to that. 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:30.000 Validate that, find a way to talk about that and to let them know that you're going through it too. 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:40.960 If you can listen and not not give that magic answer, which maybe will materialize at some point, but if you can listen and be a person that says, I hear you and mean it. 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:47.359 That is invaluable for people going through stress to simply now know that they're not alone. 00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:48.160 That's a gift. 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:55.039 And if you can give people that, that's step one until you actually find the the business answer to some of those challenges. 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:56.880 Absolutely. 00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:59.599 Oh, I there's so much, so much in there. 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:03.119 It makes me think of the Gallup study that um came out. 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.359 It was published in April, and I'm sure they've replicated, you know, continued on with the research. 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:15.440 But at that time, as the pandemic was really starting to take hold, what employees needed most from their managers was trust, compassion, and hope. 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:16.559 Uh, and clarity. 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:18.559 You've touched on really all of those. 00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:24.160 I think too, reduce ambiguity, uh be fair, try your best to stay positive. 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:31.440 All of those in their own right require a little bit of effort and work and self-reflection and evolution of self to achieve. 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:37.119 But I think in particular about reducing ambiguity, I go back to the reference profiles. 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:43.359 There are a few of them, and one of them would be mine and John's, who are less attentive to detail. 00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:53.359 We are much more comfortable working in ambiguous environments and not knowing what the end result is going to be because we have a lot of confidence uh in our in our approach. 00:28:53.359 --> 00:29:00.559 So we live in that world, and and I think what you talked about is especially true right now. 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:05.920 People do need some sense of clarity, something to kind of you know put their flag in. 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:07.759 And we have to adapt. 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:14.160 So people like me, in terms of how I communicate, I need to intentionally say less, but say more. 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:18.480 Say more in terms of what's the expectation, how are we going to get there? 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:19.680 What's the time frame? 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:23.039 Um so I appreciate that that's significant. 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:23.680 Go ahead, John. 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:31.039 Well, and I think to that point, Sarah, between a venture, a captain, and a persuader, we all are we're we're all really comfortable with the response. 00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:32.079 We'll figure it out. 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:34.160 We'll we'll figure it out, we'll get there. 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:40.480 But 68%, I mean, the majority of the people, the reference profiles, that does not work. 00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:57.200 And so leaders, managers, and supervisors have got to take that to heart and say, even though we're working in remote under remote circumstances and we're not in one office anymore, these people need the communication, need that connection. 00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:02.799 You are in the people building business if you're a manager, and don't let that slip away. 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:09.599 So I have one final question for you, Todd, as we as we think about the pandemic, and I know that the vaccines are coming out. 00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:16.160 Let's face it though, that the shift toward some sort of next normal is going to take some time. 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:27.519 We've had some business owners, CEOs, people in the C-suite say, well, when everything gets back to normal, and immediately we let them know this is a paradigm shift. 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:29.680 This this has already happened. 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:35.519 What you are thinking of in terms of normal and how things used to be is no longer going to be. 00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:43.599 How do you see that relative to, you know, executives that are saying, uh, once we get past this, we're all going to go back to the way it was before? 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:50.640 Well, I think that they fell in love with the simplistic ability to control things when everyone showed up at an office every day. 00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:50.960 Yeah. 00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:53.440 Um, and now that's been disrupted hardcore. 00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.759 And the question is, what's going to happen as we move forward? 00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:59.680 I'm going to rephrase the um my take on the new normal like this. 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:06.640 I think that the they now have an opportunity, the leaders of industry who are trying to imagine what it's going to look like when the virus does get under control. 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:10.960 I think they're going to have an opportunity to shift how they view success. 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:17.279 And what I mean by that is they very often focus on process as opposed to outcome. 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:24.000 Now, I'm talking about one manager with one or two subordinates or a big team or an executive, they all get fall prey to this. 00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:27.759 We get law saying, here's the way we should do things, the process. 00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:31.119 Go to the office, use this tool, use this sequence. 00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:35.119 Sometimes certain work requires rigid methodology. 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:35.839 Very true. 00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:41.359 A ton of office work professional does not, and there's a number of ways to skin any cat. 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:44.079 And yet bosses still want to micromanage process. 00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:46.880 And so what I love to tell them is that your process has been screwed up. 00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:47.839 That's the virus. 00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:52.880 The truth is, you need to get better and better and better at articulating the outcomes you're trying to achieve. 00:31:52.880 --> 00:32:03.119 And if some people using slightly different tools, slightly different methodologies, different processes, different timing, et cetera, et cetera, can get done what you've just defined as what we have to get done. 00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:04.480 That's a beautiful thing. 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:06.000 And you shouldn't care about the process. 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:10.880 The time you should worry about remote versus office or a million other process-related questions. 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:12.640 How do we do this questions? 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:16.000 Is when you're not achieving the outcomes that you wish to achieve. 00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:25.359 So I actually think this is one awesome weird wake-up call that says where you work isn't as important as whether or not you work well together and you've defined outcomes that you're achieving. 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:32.720 And you start mucking around in that process and caring about it, for better or for worse, when you're not able to get done the great things you want to get done. 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:33.839 That was good. 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.079 That was that was good stuff. 00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:37.759 Todd, really appreciate it. 00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:38.720 This has been awesome. 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:39.680 My pleasure. 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:40.640 Good luck to both of you. 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:41.759 Hope to be back again. 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:43.119 Yeah, absolutely. 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:44.000 Take good care. 00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.039 Stay healthy and well. 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:45.839 Happy New Year. 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:47.119 You too, man. 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:54.640 Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Boss Hole Chronicles. 00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:56.000 It was so good to have you here. 00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:02.319 And if you have your own Fosshol Story that you want to share with the Boss Holt Transformation Nation, just reach out. 00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:07.200 You can email us at mystory at the Fosshol Chronicles.com. 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.960 Again, mystory at the Fosshol Chronicles.com. 00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:12.799 We'll see you next time.