David Mathis - Brother Donkey, the Exercise Idol, and the Body Made Holy의 전체 녹취록

time to go for a walk, go for a jog, do something active in the mornings? And so I had to man up and give that a try. And that was life changing for me to try doing it first thing in the morning. It was a it was a different experience. Use some of that that first energy of the day, first and foremost, to be in God's word, hear from him first. But then before the day got going to spend some time getting my body active. So initially I did not get into it for very explicit or deep Christian reasons at all. I was just aware of I had put on extra weight, my life was sedentary, I was tired in the evenings, I was running out of energy, and I just kinda came ve in a very human sense of like, I need this activity in my life. Like I'm not living a fully human life here in terms of my sedentary lifestyle. so I got into it for pretty well human reasons, pretty worldly reasons even. And then along the way, I I was working on, all right, what's the theology of this? is there a theology that underpins it? Does d would my theology challenge me to stop exercising, or would my theology encourage me and booster and support my exercising? And I found that to be the case. I found that finding theological reasons was significantly helpful in motivating me and keeping up an exercise. routine. And so that's where the where the book was born, in those years of the twenty teens. I had to I had to live in this for a bit. I couldn't publish on it too quick. A a friend asked Josh Raies: Yeah. David: me about doing that in twenty nineteen. And that was just that was too soon. Needed a few more years and then we we brought this out. It was it was about a year ago in twenty twenty five. So it was it was a good ten year process of living it, thinking it, feeling it, running in it, the daily motivation to get up and go. And that's where the the origin of the project is. Josh Raies: That's so good. I it makes me think about how I feel like it's not too much to say that we live in certainly the most informed generation in history, just in terms of our access to information. And the reality with that is that we also are the most informed when it comes to the body and the reality of the positive effects of things like clean eating and regular daily exercise and movement, good sleep, all those things. And yet, David, the the thing that I notice again and again and again is with all that information, it really doesn't often seem to lead towards change. People don't actually act on it. And David: That's right. Mm-hmm. Josh Raies: so to kind of like reverse engineer something that, you know, you explicitly said there and then also you've included in the title of your book, man, why is it then that It matters that we have theology that undergirds our exercise. David: That's good. You know, a lot of times people don't think about theology being persuasion, being the offer of rewards, being the making of promises. C. S. Lewis talked about Jesus' teaching in the Gospels as the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the war the rewards offered in the Gospels. That that's what Jesus did, like he sought to persuade. the Sermon on the Mount is not mere information. It is persuasion. It's information that is being that is serving persuasion to change the heart, to change the will, to change the life. And so y you're absolutely right. I mean, we are swimming in the information age, often to our detriment. And information itself doesn't change the heart. Josh Raies: Okay. David: and what Christianity appeals to again and again is that sense of reward, that there's that that there's g if you do the hard thing now. God will reward you on the other side of that difficulty, which is the kind of paradigm that exercise offers the modern person, a chance to learn how reward works, how hard hard work works in God's created world. And so that's a that's a powerful incentive for why why bringing theology to exercise is not mainly to add information. Now there are some biblical data, some biblical doctrines. Yes, there's information involved. But mainly there's a sense of persuade the heart that this is God's design, it's good for you, help the motivation, help the persuasion, help the enjoyment of the reward in the process, and that over time is what's so life changing. Josh Raies: Hm. So with your initial motivation, like you said, being just like the general understanding that to get moving out of your sedentary lifestyle, would you say looking back on that, that there was not enough substance to that motivation to create what would be a sustainable habit and lifestyle. And that's why you needed those theological reasons to really build up and bolster why it is you were doing what you were doing. David: Yeah, you know, man, the human heart is so complex and I I do believe that sinners with bad motivations and a sense of legalism and performance can work themselves into all sorts of habits that'll be sustained long term. So I I I would definitely look back on it and say, as a Christian, the way I went about it was not ideal. It was Josh Raies: Yeah. David: not fully Christian. So if I'm mainly looking at the number on the scale Or the cholesterol number, the LDL number that my doctor is is holding out and saying, The LDL's too high, you're gonna have to be on a statin, you If if I'm being motivated by these these external factors, or even just the sense of, man, I I don't have energy, like I know I should. Like I am just kind of a walking zombie at times. Whatever those those the stick would be. C. S. Lewis talked about the carrot and the stick. He talked about the body as brother ass, brother donkey. Josh Raies: Yeah. David: And the the body is lovable and stubborn. And sometimes the body needs the stick. That means you stick, you hit the donkey in the back, get it going. Other times you you hold out the carrot. And Josh Raies: Yeah. David: it hitting the donkey in the back can get that thing moving forward. Like it it it

wants to avoid another smack until it gets going. but I don't think that's the ideal motivation. probably not for donkeys and not for Christians. especially. And so I I do think you might get into exercising for all sorts of reasons. A lot of them are vain. I mean, I was just at a juncture where I was overweight, I was sedentary, my doctor was starting to look at my cholesterol numbers. And so it was it was more health concerns. It wasn't wasn't me having any sort of pretense that I'm gonna look good in a mirror. it wasn't that kind of vanity. But I that is it for a lot of people is man, I really want to look good on Instagram, on the stage, when I dress up. Like there's there's the motivational body image. And it a lot can happen through that. And w we can be motivated to do a lot through that. But in terms of having a Christian motivation, I wanted to get down to the to the bottom. Like what is God's design for the human body and then how has God made these bodies not just to move but even to reward movement. And Josh Raies: Yeah. David: that is what's been so helpful to me. Not I I I am helped in pursuing exercise by knowing how it works. May Josh Raies: Yeah. David: maybe that's not for everybody, but but that's helped me significantly and it's at least helped ingrain and sustain those healthy patterns. Josh Raies: Yeah. David, talk to us a little bit about a little theology of exercise. like take us into it now. a general scaffolding. What is the framework that you put forth? And without going into too much detail, because y'all people you you need to read this book. It is not too long. It's an easy read and it's something that will edify you. but tell us a little bit about Wha what this theology, this little theology of exercise actually came to be for you as you put it down on paper? David: Yeah, you know the know where it was. You know, I think with any theological system or many theology, you can think about it in three-dimensional terms. Imagine like a sphere. You and I both like baseball. It's like a baseball. And you don't have to start at a certain point. You can start anywhere, anywhere in the sphere. So I don't think it has to begin in a certain place. My jumping off point over the years became First Timothy chapter four verses four and five. where Paul says, Everything created by God is good. And in that context, he's talking about foods, the dinner table, and he's talking about the marriage bed, life in the body. And I think it applies to sleep. I think it applies to exercise. I I'm making that extrapolation from First Timothy four, four to five. Everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God in prayer. So that was my Josh Raies: Yeah. David: concern. Like, how do how do I make exercise holy? And he says that happens by the word of God and prayer. So what is that? Word of God is what God says about it. So God made the world, he tells us

about the world, he tells us about his design, his purposes for our bodies, for movement in his world. And then he says, You make it holy by his word and prayer. And so that's how I structured the book is the first half is. What does God have to say about our bodies and their movement? That's what I'm trying to get at exercise because in the first century they were not nearly so sedentary. I mean, the nation of Israel is wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. Sedentariness Josh Raies: Yeah. David: is not their concern. and Jesus was a blue-collar carpenter working. I mean, he's walking around the the first century roads like the apostle Paul. So they they lived just f they lived far more active lives. So the the biblical assumption is here. And now we're kind of living at this lower this lower point down here. So that that that's a big part of it is lining up our current sedentary society even with what is assumed in the Bible. And then s finding out in that first part, all right, what does God say about our bodies and their movement? And then in the second part, like, all right, what's the how do I consecrate my exercise? Like, what do I do as a Christian to make it holy? It's one way to talk about it. Another way to say it is. make it Christian. Like how do I exercise like a Christian? what are the Christian motivations related to and I flesh out there the glory of God and my joy and my mind and my will and then love for others. There's there's five parts there. So that's my my basic approach to the topic. Josh Raies: Yeah, that's so helpful and I think it gives us the perfect kind of paradigm to go deeper into this subject. And David, I'm in Dallas and when I look around me in the middle of Dallas, Texas, I see really what I feel like could be very generally categorized as one of two things when you look at the people around me. And one side of that is just hedonism, to put it simply, in terms of just enjoyment of food, pleasure, whatever it is that the world has to offer. And then on the other side of it, I think at its worst is just pure vanity and concern with appearance and the physical world around us. when we see people that fall into these two camps, what is it that you think really keeps them from thinking of the body as being more than something that is physical? David: What keeps them from thinking of the body as more than f or human life? Yeah. Josh Raies: They're their excuse me. They're human life, yes. The the yeah. They're their physical existence, rather. the their human life. David: man, you know, and you I mean you're right, and I'm sure Dallas is polarized on this issue. Minneapolis and St. Paul is and as I travel around, as I see human life, it it is a polarizing issue in our day. I mean and it it's something that we wear in our appearance, right? I mean, over time, these habits of life become manifest in their various ways, in their appearance. And so you can crassly like look at a crowd and you can see the great polarization and divide. I mean living in the secular world that we do, I the the secular assumptions are pervasive that the here and now, the tangible, the seeable, the tasteable, the touchable, like that that is what matters. And there's a diminishing sense of immaterial reality, of ultimate reality in Christian terms, of God Himself, who is invisible and yet has made this world and manifests himself in it as in a and is in us by the power of his Holy Spirit. So that the invisible world is diminished for modern people and even for Christians. I mean this is one of the main battles to be a Christian in an increasingly secular society is to not have the ultimate and the real diminished because it's not, according to secular terms, seeable, touchable, tasteable. So I mean I I think in in in both those categories, in both sides, I think it's complex, in terms of very much you can have one side saying, you know, the I'm I'm not concerned about God or heaven or eternity. I'm just gonna get what I can get right now and I'm gonna do it with these immediate pleasures, immediate thin pleasures of food and comfort and not moving. And then you may have another side saying, you know, I I'm not living for God. I don't believe He exists. I'm not living in light of the invisible. I'm living in light of what I can be and and show myself to be, the the the a different kind of pleasure, which isn't the immediate pleasure of I'm just gonna eat this, but it's the pleasure of I'm gonna be this, I'm gonna feel this way. I mean the person who's giving themselves to an exercise idol is not forsaking pleasure. I mean they Josh Raies: Yeah. David: are experiencing a very profound pleasure. I mean every time they take a step and go for a jog and move around and put on a pair of clothes that fits. I there's a lot of pleasure to be had in the so-called you know vain body idol life. And so there there There is there's a pursuit of of various pleasures on different sides depending on where you're accenting your target. What kind of pleasures do you really want to experience? And how have you been conditioned in what what other what other way to pursue pleasures on this side or that side? And so the Christian approaches it and says, you know, in one sense a a plague on both your houses. There are good things beneath the surface that are represented in Christianity in terms of both resting in justification and and working by the power of the Holy Spirit as he empowers us in lives of movement and of good works. and at the same time there are there's a criticism both ways. The way the way C. S. Lewis put it, he talked about the pagans who hate the body and think it doesn't matter. And the neo pagans who are the exhibitionists Josh Raies: Mm. David: and half clad and he said we as Christians have a third way that's when he uses that language of of brother ass he goes this is the the the the path of Saint Francis who called his body brother ass who said Josh Raies: Hmm. Yeah.

David: it's a lovable beast and yet stubborn and infuriating and and we're stuck in the middle of not stuck in the middle we're gifted the middle of a complex relationship in this fallen world between us and our bodies and the body The Bible provides, the Word of God provides a story that helps us understand the complexities of our bodies in the situation. Josh Raies: So let's talk about that story in this context, because I think that that's probably something at least from many of the people that I've spoken about this specific subject with in Christian circles that lack that, that lack that ability to look at their physical ball body in the context of this redemptive arc of scripture. David: Right. Yeah. The I I think we're often prone to take a certain perspective that's true and distort reality by pretending it's the whole. Or sometimes, if you're really sharp, take a couple perspectives and then distort reality by making those two things the all all pervasive thing. And I I think as I try to rehearse the Christian story as it relates to our bodies, it it's hard to not have at least six parts to it. And I'm sure there could be more. So by identifying six here, I'm not saying these are the six and the only six. I'm just saying the details of the Christian story and the arc, like you said, has a bearing on the complex life of our bodies. So very simply, creation. God made your body, he designed it, it's his idea. Fall, sin. Our bodies have been affected by sin. Sin dwells in our mortal bodies, Paul says in in Romans chapter six. And then third, it's often overlooked. God Himself in Jesus took on a human body. This is a remarkable dignifying of the human body. The next step in God's story after sin isn't throw the body away. The next step, and the way I'm laying out here, is I'll take the body myself, I'll go save Josh Raies: Yeah. David: them. In the body. And so Jesus Christ lived in a fully human body, fully God, fully man, one spectacular person, and dignified these bodies. Next, then, where I want to go next, the Holy Spirit dwells in these bodies. So the risen Christ ascends. sits in triumph on heaven's throne and pours out his spirit that is this even more spectacular than the incarnation that God himself would dwell in our bodies. I mean it's a stunning thing. I mean it is it is a glory past finding out for the Christian to realize and realize again and realize again God himself dwells in me, in the Holy Spirit. I mean it's it's almost too amazing to even say and get our minds around. And then we live our Christian life In the bodies. This would be a fifth step that we live in these bodies. We defeat sin in these bodies because of the sacrifice of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. I mean, we live holy lives or unholy lives day after day, decision after decision, desire and delight after desire and delight in these bodies. And so they matter right now for acts of love, for glorifying God. Your body matters. That's where you live this life. And in the last stage, I don't know if What to call this, except you have a spectacular bodily upgrade that's coming. Like the story of your body doesn't end with practical redemption in this life. It ends with a promise that's coming of a glorified human body that will be spectacular among beyond our even greatest imagination. And that is coming where we enjoy Jesus at the center of all reality. Our bodies won't be at the center. Jesus will be at the center, but our bodies will will be so impressed. improved as to get the distractions out of the way, get the ailments out of the way and disease out of the way, that we can fully enjoy God Himself in these human bodies to his glory. Josh Raies: Amen. There in and of itself is why theology matters and why a theology of exercise matters because David: Mm, sorry. Josh Raies: I think it just helps us put our physical existence in light of the again, redemptive arc of scripture, of the David: That's right. Josh Raies: gospel, of what God has done in his creation and his redeeming us from brokenness. and so to draw it back to kind of go a little bit of a circle here to those two camps that we were talking about. and if we were to say like, if those are these camps in the secular world, they are going to be camps of temptation, right? For those that David: That's right. You're right. Josh Raies: are within the church to fall into. And maybe I could dress those things up a little bit more or be a little bit more civilized if you want to say that and call one side apathy or indifference towards David: Mm-hmm. Josh Raies: the body, physical health. exercise and then the other side just simply idolatry of it. with that storyline, that six-part storyline, how does that speak to the Christian that is tempted one way or the other? And how does it speak uniquely to one temptation or the other? David: Yeah, in terms of speaking uniquely, I'm not sure. But l let me let me first focus on that good news at point number four in the story. That Josh Raies: Yeah. David: God himself takes up residence, dwells in your body. And w for a Christian with the Spirit of God, He does not, he's not gonna let us settle in with that pattern of idolatry, with that pattern of apathy. He wants to prompt, to prick, to convict us, and and we play a part in that. I mean, we are choosing by faith. We are deciding to make efforts to try to get ourselves going, to put the reward in front of us. That's what the Holy Spirit specializes in. Partnering with God's word and his promises to put conscious reasons in front of us. on the one hand, to get an apathetic sedentary life going, or on the other hand, somebody who's got it aliba out of balance. They got body idolatry and they need to put that healthy body to use in service of others. So so this is something I found very helpful over the years. in terms of looking at our body in light of our callings to rehearse your objective callings in life, say as a son or as a father and as a

husband and in what work you have. It's a different issue if if you're in a profession where you are being paid for the use of your body in terms of professional athletics or in terms of military or police officers, where where part of the work and part of what you do on the clock is in training your body that isn't a that's it that puts it within the the calling proper so to speak and so I I think for for all of us to consider all right how does how does the the fitness of my body relate to these various callings in life and I would say that for anybody listening you your your fitness alone is not your calling Josh Raies: Yes. David: fitness makes us fit for something else. So a a question that a Christian asks about fitness is fit for what? Get your body fit for what? And then fitness is a great term for Christians because we want to ask that next question. is it is it fit just to be capturing eyes in an Instagram scroll? Is it fit to be up on a stage and prance around? Or is there fitness to be able to do good for others, to have the kind of energy it takes to get up, go help somebody put strong arms to use, strong legs to use to help somebody in various acts of love. And so a really good test for someone who is getting into going to the gym or running or whatever that that idolatry temptation might be is is your fitness serving your calling to love other people? Do you find yourself making excuses over and over again? I can't help you. I gotta go work out. I think it would be a flag. the the rejecting or moving away from human relationships because I gotta go work out. That that that's a flag to me. Josh Raies: Yeah. David: it should be that the life of the body and fitness is is serving the callings of the Christian as father, as husband, as worker, as neighbor. And then as we're able to then strengthen the body, work on the body, do so in such a way that would serve those callings, great. But but but when the focus on fitness begins to take away from the other clear callings then I think we have a a sign of idolatry. Josh Raies: Yeah, and I think that that's so difficult because there's nobody in the secular world at least that's ever going to discourage you from exercise. But all the while, I mean, even today, I had a moment where I had to struggle a little bit because the one hour that should have been mine to exercise I had to make the decision, was I going to use that for myself or was I going to use that to let my wife have an hour to get some things done that she needed to get done while I took the baby? And there's this like constant thought in my mind of like, Wow, like when I'm gauging this situation, I have this deep desire to just do more. And then I have to ask myself, like, why is it that I have this desire? Why is it that I feel like I have to exercise in this moment and I can't just give it up for the sake of selflessly serving my wife? And it's because of that fact that man, I see it as ultimate. And I think that that's so many people in my world as a personal trainer, they just view the body and they view the things that they can do physically as being ultimate, as being the end goal. And yet what's so encouraging to think about is like you're saying, man, all of this has a purpose in allowing us to do the things that God has called us to do in a way that brings more glory to him and edifies the people around us as much as possible. David: That's really good, Josh. I mean, you put your finger on the the struggle for and maybe for all of us and especially for dads with young kids and and and for husbands. I mean that is that's been a regular challenge. That that's been a a path I've been walking here. I guess so now it's been about eleven, twelve years of getting back into exercise after that long sedentary season early in my marriage. And I mean so often learning the hard way by by it through my wife's frustration. frustrations and gracious words and trying to make me aware of of ways that I can s more selflessly get that time to go for a run or to get some weights in or to even go play basketball with the guys, whatever whatever it would be, that would be the use of the body. There are self-sacrificing times for that. And there's other times where I'm making sacrif I'm making you sacrifice wife or kids. How early might I get up to get the exercise in before the kids are awake or might I do it at a later time about to walk out the door for a run and some need emerges like am I willing in that moment to say all right you know I I I spent four minutes getting my clothes and shoes on here can let's throw that away I can go for a run some other time I'll try it again tomorrow and if it if it's not in God's plan for me tomorrow then I I can submit myself to his sovereignty but in this moment I need to make the call to love not to Josh Raies: Yeah. David: be a amateur fitness runner Josh Raies: No, absolutely. And that's I mean, I love the way that you just said that to end right there. I mean, that's the reality is that word amateur. I mean, I'm not getting paid. to exercise. I'm not providing for my family via exercise. There there may be, you know, as a a coach and as a personal trainer and working with athletes, there is certainly an aspect in my own life that there is a necessity for me to do my work excellently that I might function in a way that allows for me to demonstrate and to teach and to coach in a way that best and most serves the people that I work. work for and with. but all the while, man, how much of what I do is not directly necessitated and and beneficial to accomplishing that purpose, if you know what I'm I'm saying there. So yeah. David: Right. That's right. You know, there's then there's seasons in life. You know, there's seasons with a newborn newborn at home. there's seasons with several young children at home that are different than than later on. Right. My my youngest is now nine and a half. And it's really different now than it was when she

was a baby and when all we had four kids under eight. That's it's a very different season now and and seasons in life change. And that that's important to keep in mind. Josh Raies: Yeah. And I think also recognizing I mean, you know, the the last guest that we had on the show, he talked about how the body and the soul they run oftentimes on like these parallel tracks. And one of the things that it made me think of is how it's not every day that I get to sit down and open God's word and just dive in deep for an hour and a half and spend time in prayer and study and like very, very deep. Deep meditation. Some days I have a good 15, 20 minutes and it's saying, God, not my will but yours be done. Like let like you you choose what to do with this time. I you are giving it to me. It's not mine to begin with. And what's crazy is I feel like when I apply that within the context of my exercise, it lets me walk in so much more gratitude and contentment because I'm reminded, like, man, this ability to even use my My body is not my own to begin with. It's solely a gift from God, which is so centering for me. And I hope that that would be true for others that might have the struggle of more so leaning towards the idolatry of the body and exercise. But I I will say this, David, to kind of move on a little bit. That's my personal struggle. And I would say like there's a lot of people again, like in in my circle and my profession that that would be true of. David: Mm-hmm. Josh Raies: But I also have many friends, I have people that are close with me that fall into the temptation on the other side. And I think one of the hardest things for me to do is to know how to speak to this subject with grace and truth. So how would you encourage whether it's a pastor, whether it's a friend, whether it's a family member, to to encourage someone else, to exhort, to admonish even, to to steward the body well with that idea of fitness, fit for what, being at the heart of David: Mm. Josh Raies: it. David: Yeah, you know, the I mean, as a pastor and having, you know, hundreds of people that are there in the church, members and attendees all over the map on this issue. In a young congregation it's a polarizing issue in our day. And so people are in or they're out typically. I mean, some are trying to get in and can't quite get in and go back and forth in the middle, but but there's a lot that are all in, there's a lot who are who are all out. So it is a polarizing issue. So w if I'm you know, have a big room of people I'm gonna proceed really carefully. I'm gonna talk about my own story. I'm gonna talk about clear biblical principles. I'm not gonna pretend I know exactly what needs to happen in their particular situation. And then some of knowing my own story is man, there are there are people who who live very sedentary lives for years. And that doesn't that's not a death sentence yet for them. That there may be a a change that comes along. And think about how that happened for

me. I mean I I feel like I'm still on a path of discovery. So Josh Raies: Yeah. David: I'm it's ten, twelve years in and I've done a lot of discovery on the exercise side. I'm working on my sleep right now. I'm I'm still I'm learning Josh Raies: Yeah. David: a lot of things about sleep. We got in this Netflix world where the the main enemy of the the big streaming services is human sleep. Josh Raies: Yeah. David: And I'm learning about that and what what it means to to eat well and and not not ruin what I'm doing with my exercise in the eating. So I I I'm very much still on the journey and wanna have space for those still on that journey. Now, as I'm in a particular one on one or more intimate relationship and can and can share with somebody, especially I mean, on this issue, for whatever it is, this may just be a twenty twenty six thing. Maybe I'd say something different five or ten years from now. But I I I'm looking to I I want somebody to ask. I want to be asked for counsel. I want to be very careful with with jumping right in for counsel that's not being requested. Maybe Josh Raies: Yeah. David: it it's a small echo form of pearls before a swine or something like that. But don't take that too far. That'd be bad as well. Josh Raies: Yeah, yeah, yeah. David: just a sense of I mean, I I've I've put myself out there by doing this book and talking about these things publicly. So my friends and those of my church. church know that I've I've done that kind of thing. And if they want to hear me say something to them, then they can ask me for that. Now I know others would be in a different situation. And so you gotta navigate those those conversations carefully. You mentioned before you you were talking about First Thessalonians five fourteen about here let me I'm I'm pull that up. I think this is helpful in this context. You got that right in front of you. I've I I plopped it into this to this document. Let's see, where do we put that? here we go. Admonish the idle, encourage the faint hearted, help the weak, and then he ends with, Be patient with them all. Josh Raies: Yeah. David: It's a classic Apostle Paul. to to know Know the situation, know your people, provide different options and and not presume to know more than you do about a particular person's situation and the deep complexities of their background and their history that got them to that point. So I mean, for me as a pastor, there's clarity about the focus of my calling on preaching Josh Raies: Yeah. David: the Bible. And and because the Bible has far less sedentary assumptions than our modern world, that's often not at the forefront. But there are plenty of places. There are plenty of places we're talking about a work ethic and the use of the will and moving the body and engaging in good works. And I want to take those opportunities and try to put them in our current context for people, in a world that very much encourages sedentariness or idolatry. I mean it's a Josh Raies: Yeah. David: polarizing situation that we're in, it's worth bringing up and exposing people to that and then let them have some time to live in that and see personal implications. Josh Raies: Yeah. Well i it makes me think about the old analogy of if you know, with it with the hammer and everything else is a nail. that's certainly not the tool of choice to hear to use here at all times. And what I love about that verse, the contrast between the visual image of admonish the idol and help the weak is very clearly different implements. of encouragement, of exhortation, of lifting up, calling higher. And but the thing that undergirds them all is just that idea of patience. And David: That's right. Josh Raies: even to go back to you referencing your own journey, I'm just thinking about how when when I look at my own life and where I am in this lifelong process of sanctification. It helps me so much to remember that as I seek to understand and and bear with it to use New Testament language, other believers, other younger believers especially that may be more immature in their faith. And so to like take that and apply it here in this setting, I think is so helpful for those who may have this zeal, this passion for health, for wellness, for exercise, and and and and leveraging that in a way that is specific to the individual. David: Right. It really is a call for wisdom here. You know, wisdom doesn't always take the same path. It's if you always turn right, that's not wisdom. wisdom is knowing when to turn right, when to slow down, when to speed up, when to pull off and refuel or fix a tire, when to veer left, when to slowly go left. And so and it that's gonna happen personally as we have our as we navigate life in terms of getting our own exercise and then just navigating those different relationships, times, seasons, what what's What's most helpful in the moment? Is this a battle for later? Is this just for now? Thank God that He's given us His Holy Spirit to help, to prompt. I I think as Christians, we should lean in to that pursuit of wisdom with confidence that the Holy Spirit's gonna lead and guide and help us, turn us in the right direction. We're gonna make mistakes. You may offer a bit of counsel that is ill-timed and hurts someone, or maybe there was a perfect time for teachable moment and you missed it, that's gonna happen. Josh Raies: Yeah. David: but but knowing that there's not a formula. Ahead of time to always say this or always say that, but you need Holy Spirit-helped wisdom to be guided in those relationships. Josh Raies: I love that. And David, you obviously just have such a shepherding heart, a pastoral gifting. when we have this conversation about exercise in the context of pastoral ministry, how have you seen this emphasis and this care, this stewardship of the body positively affect your ministry as a pastor? David: I mean are energy and joy two different things? I think they are. Maybe I could speak first to energy. I I don't want

brother ass, the donkey, holding me back. in in ministry and there are er in Christian ministry there are some really emotionally difficult situations. So d this is not just a matter of physical energy. I think you talk about the the body and the soul walking on parallel tracks, how one feeds the other. And I think of Jesus in John four saying to the disciples, I've got food to eat, you know nothing of. Like he wasn't eating physical bread, but there was a conversation with that woman of the well that was feeding his soul. And there are other times like You know, if you go all night without sleep, it doesn't matter how much how much time you spend reading the Bible, your soul's not gonna be in the in the right place. And the body and soul are are enigmatically and deeply connected. I have found over the years, when I'm expending energy and exercise, the irony is I have more energy. I have more energy not just for physical things to pick up stuff and move around, but I have more energy for conversations, for coming up against a an emotional barrier instead of just folding like a modern person to say, no, this is important. I I'm gonna pick up the phone, I'm gonna make the hard phone call, or I'm gonna talk to this brother, I'm gonna bring up the heart issue instead of just having a conversation that floats along with thin pleasantries. So there's there's an emotional energy that is critical in pastoral ministry. And I find that working out my body somehow, I I think I know a little bit of the biological mechanism, it helps that emotional energy. I mean the real simple part is w when you get your heart rate up and get your blood pumping, it gets hormones and neurotransmitters to the brain that you don't get to the brain otherwise. I mean God made these bodies in normal human situations, apart from disability, other tragedies, he made these bodies to move. And our brains don't work optimally when we're not moving and we're not getting that fresh flow of blood to the brain. So there's energetic effects emotionally. And then, I mean, I run on joy as a human, as one that God made, I want to be happy. I believe that Jesus offers happiness to the glory of his Father. And as a pastor, I'm going to pursue my people's joy better from a fuller place of joy in God. And then through pursuing their joy, I get the increased joy of being an instrument of God's grace in their life. So as a pastor who's pursuing joy in the joy of my people exercises one thing among others and and not the main thing but one thing among others that helps me in that. Josh Raies: Yeah, well why why would you not use what is available to you as a good gift? And I think about how David: That's right. Josh Raies: at the beginning of our conversation you explicitly mentioned how you've learned some of these things from Pastor John. And when you said that you also mentioned that w how how old did you say he is now? So he he's eighty. So there is David: He's eighty now. He turned eighty in this last year. Josh Raies: Obviously this incredible longevity to his ministry. So is it too much to say or too far to say that exercise can play a significant role, not an exclusive role like we just said, but but play a role in David: can play a significant role, not an exclusive role like we just said, but but play a role. Josh Raies: pastoral longevity? David: Absolutely. Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is man does not live by bread alone, but every word that proceeds from the mouth of of God Himself. So th the first thing to say, I mean i if if you wake up and it's either jog or get in the Bible, that's an easy answer for me. I mean first and foremost, I want my soul to live on the word of God. And I think caring well for our bodies, and I'm gonna bring in here what we eat and drink and sleep and exercise that that those pieces are not irrelevant and can be significant. I mean you know, if depending on how bad we are related to sleep and food and exercise. Those can become major, major impediments to effective ministry. but typically I think a a modest use of those things can be a powerful service in pastoral longevity. I d I joke with the guys at Bethlehem College Seminary, that Two of Piper's secrets that a lot of people don't know about is he's been jogging three times a week for the last my goodness, since the nineteen seventies. So however long that is, fifty or sixty years. he's not a fast jogger, but he gets up there, he gets his heart rate going. And even now, in his eighties, he does this elliptical machine, he says. He's and he has these little he's he does does the weights. I heard him talk about this just last week. He still does his weights and the elliptical into his eighties. That's one thing is that he's kept that pattern. It it's really modest. I mean we're talking potentially you know thirty minutes three times a week. That's a that's a a very small investment. investment pot potentially. The other one is I d was I was not expecting this when I started working from years ago. He doesn't drink sugar. And it's simple and that's pretty countercultural to a lot of Americans in the twenty first century. And and you can go a long way with with some modest levels of activity and not drinking sugar, you might find yourself further down the the health journey than you might expect. Josh Raies: That is so good. I love that too, 'cause one thing I keep saying recently, in a conversation on stewardship, is that stewardship in its most basic form applied is just intentionality. And that's really what David: just intentionality. And that's really Josh Raies: I hear from that is man, like I'm gonna consider what it is that I'm drinking. I'm gonna consider the effect that it can have on me and I'm gonna make a better choice. And man, like what a beautiful expression of caring for David: consider the effect that it can have on me and I'm gonna make a better choice. Yeah, try and man, like what a beautiful expression of caring for

Josh Raies: what God has given us in our bodies. David: Right. Josh Raies: So yeah. David: Josh, let me just let me emphasize there, you what you said there was so good. you said, I'm gonna make a better choice. That word better is so important. Like there's one way to fly past it and go, I'm gonna do the thing that's right. And there's another approach, a more hedonistic approach, or we like to call it a Christian hedonistic approach that says, I want what's better. I want more joy, I want more pleasure. Like I I am not passing on drinking sugar because I'm anti-pleasure. I have a sense of this will be better for me. It will be superior if I steward my body well. And that doesn't mean never eating anything that is fat or rich or never drinking sugar. But in in the whole overall framework, considering what's superior, what's better for your joy to the glory of God. Josh Raies: I love that. I love that word better too because it draws me back to when you referenced that sixth step in the arc. in the storyline, the upgrade, something better, something David: Mm-hmm. Josh Raies: to come. And when I think about that, David: Think about Josh Raies: I think about how like God has told us, like in his word, man, the body's not just gonna be done away with. Like obviously David: That's right. Josh Raies: God is for the body because like he's promised us the resurrection of the body. David: That's right. Josh Raies: and I sure hope that mine is much better and I hope that my knee doesn't ache me on on a run anymore and my shoulder after throwing a bass David: I don't want to run anymore and my shoulder after throwing Josh Raies: But David, David: baseball over years is messed up. but David Josh Raies: help us have like a sense of awe in the possibility of what that better body might look like. Let's dream a little bit. David: You know, the and one thing we can dream about in scripture is the glorified body of Jesus. I I take the transfiguration as being a a a peak ahead of time to the glorified humanity of Jesus. And we we see the glorified humanity show up in Revelation chapter one when he's speaking to the Apostle John. And there's the brightness of of light. It's almost like it's too much to take in to these human eyes. Like, you know, our fallen human eyes of the stage can't quite take it all in. I I think mainly my emphasis I want to have as I think about that resurrection body to come is I will be freed from thinking about my body. I'm not gonna think about the ailments. I'm not gonna feel that partially torn rotator cuff or the sprained ankle. now an interesting thing about the the glorified body of Jesus is this is this is counterintuitive. You might think a glorified body will have no scars. Josh Raies: Yeah. David: And maybe there are certain scars in this life that'll be gone off your glorified body and be a beautiful thing. But when the scars that Jesus got were for the redemption of his people, you know, the greatest achievement in the history of the world that he went to the cross to save his people and glorify his father, those scars are glorified. I love that language and the hymn crown him with many crowns, rich wounds, yet visible above, in beauty glorified. So his scars have been still on the body and glorified. You can tell it's Jesus. the Apostle John or the Apostle Thomas finds out by looking and and seeing the scars. So I I don't know all the details of what our our bodies will like be like. I there's no pretense in my mind that I'm gonna be able to dunk a ten foot goal basketball just Josh Raies: Ha ha ha. David: by the fact of being resurrected. I I think mainly the joy will be that I will see Jesus. I'll see him face to face. I'll enjoy him and I won't mainly be thinking about my body and I can interact with others who likewise enjoy him and the body will serve and facilitate a fullness of life and it won't get in the way of that life. It will do exactly what it needs to to provide in God's glorified physical new heavens and new earth what it needs for our maximal joy in him and to his glory. Josh Raies: I love that so much because I feel like it's an encouraging word for us here and now and not just daydreaming about what is to come. 'Cause I don't know, in my mind I just get the thought of David, you know, saying like I I I look to the hills, where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord and so like in in the midst of whatever it is that ails us, whatever it is that hinders us, that encumbers us in these bodies from experiencing the fullness of the joy that is available to us in Jesus. When we fix our eyes solely on him, the author and perfecter of our faith, we have the opportunity to have just a glimpse of what's to come in our new better bodies now. David: Mm-hmm. Josh Raies: which is so encouraging and I I I just like was getting a little bit overcome with emotion even thinking about that. How I'm sitting here still thinking about the body, David: about that. How yeah, I'm sitting here still thinking about the Josh Raies: but in glorification, the it's not that the the the central theme of glorification is me. The central theme of glorification is Christ. And man, like that right there is enough fuel to David: The central theme of glorification is Christ. And man, like that right there is enough fuel Josh Raies: To keep me going. so yeah. Well, David, I want to be considerate of your time, but I I do want to ask a couple David: to keep me going. So yeah. Well David, I want to be considerate of your time, but I I do want to ask Josh Raies: questions here, just kind of real quick. You you mentioned David: Yeah. Josh Raies: how you are emphasizing some nutrition and some sleep right now. So tell us a little bit practically David: Mm. So tell us a little bit practically. Josh Raies: what you mean when you say that. David: well, I mean I I grew up in the American South with a gallon of sweet tea in the fridge, and that was the normal drink rather than

water. So it's a a just a lifelong struggle of it finding the way to enjoy food and and and learning about food in the in the midst of it. I mean, that's not my major focus in life. I'm not a nutritionist. I have made this little exercise focus that serves my theology. So I continue to learn. And my wife's always ahead of me on this and I'll learn new things and and I I mean so w with my higher cholesterol numbers, I'm making conscious efforts to eat rest less red meat. and so when I have a burger now, it's typically this it's a celebration, it's a feast. I I I really want to be intentional that my own eating preferences and habits aren't disrupting family life or disrupting gatherings. So there are opportunities where I can be picky, that are just mainly me or me and my wife somewhere the options are there. There's other times where it it's disruptive and I don't want it to be about my eating habits or patterns. That's one. On the sleep side, I get this whoop. And Josh Raies: Yeah. David: I'm sure it's not perfect. I'm sure there's far more complicated and advanced devices. but keeping track of that, I've tried to become a little more conscientious as I'm getting older too. I I I've found out I'm 45 and on a four-hour night of sleep, I don't function the way I used to when I was in my 20s and my early 30s. And so there's a real there's a parallel stewardship issue there with exercise. if I'm not sleeping. well especially multiple nights in a row. I can you know I could do some poor things and and have a and have a small night of sleep and then I need to get back and recover. But if I go multiple nights in a row, man, I'm really dragging. And that doesn't help my work as an editor, it doesn't help my work as a pastor if I'm putting together an article, putting together a sermon, having face-to-face conversations. So that that emotional energy that comes in part from sleep and it's not in competition with the Holy Spirit. Spirit. One of the ways the Holy Spirit works in a life is to help you learn lessons from your bad decisions and and and and learn how to get some sleep and have a normal pattern of sleep so that When you're called on in a moment of need, you can miss sleep. So if I'm already three nights into bad sleep and then I've got a late night pastoral need or a need with one of my kids, I'm really in a tough spot. But Josh Raies: Yeah. David: I've been doing if I've been doing a reasonable thing, just making decisions to turn screens off. That that that is a big thing for so many people in modern life. Is turn the screen off, get to bed, work on the the daily discipline of enough sleep so that you're ready to sacrifice sleep when you can really help and and bless somebody. So that's that's an ongoing process. I continue to learn about that. I I just got Brett McCracken's book here called The Wisdom of Sleep and I'm looking forward to seeing if I can learn anything from from Brett about that. I'm sure I can and I'm excited for for that. Josh Raies: I love that. I mean there there's a lot of humility and dependence in the act of sleep. David: Mm-hmm. For sure. Josh Raies: And so, man, it definitely serves us. But I love that that paradigm of sleeping in pre for preparation, for what God might call you to do, in selfless service. So David, that's fantastic. Again, just thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us here today on the Two By Two Movement David: Thank you, Josh. Josh Raies: Podcast. where can people find you and your work and your ministry? David: Mm, Desiring God dot org. I have been pouring my life happily in there now for more than twenty years. So articles, sermons, books, and just about everything I do publicly gets pulled back around to Desiring God some way or form. So that'd be the the place to go. And I'm one of six teachers there. So check out those other teachers, not just John Piper, but Tony Rankey and Marshall Siegel and Greg Morse and Scott Hubbard. we try to to put out a feast that will not make you physically fat, but will feed your soul and desiring God. That's a good feast. You can eat and eat and eat without any There we go. That's right. No overindulgence. Josh Raies: That's a good feast. You can eat and eat and eat without any guilt, that's for sure. David: Yeah. Well everybody, this has been another episode of the T by Two Movement Podcast. Thanks so much. Josh Raies: Well everybody, this has been another episode of the Two by Two Movement Podcast. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you tune into the next one.