The Criminal Defense Attorney: How He Defends The Indefensible?의 전체 녹취록

that I always found very interesting. 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:59.439 And um as I grew, I was I was not the best teenager. 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:05.279 I mean, I I wouldn't say I was a criminal necessarily, but possibly a criminal. 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:08.480 I was doing normal teenage stuff, I think. 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:12.160 I didn't go out and hurt people or anything like that. 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:20.480 So I think when I matured, I think some of that made me want to be, you know, in the legal field. 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:28.720 But when I was 15, my mother was 15 or 16, my mother was diagnosed with major depression. 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:33.360 15 to 16-year-old kid, I didn't understand what that was, it scared me. 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:44.560 And um, you know, so I always at that time I kind of started trying to learn a little bit about mental health and uh found it kind of interesting. 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:48.160 When I graduated high school, I didn't have any direction. 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:56.560 I didn't have a desire to go to college, didn't have a desire to have a career, I just didn't want to do anything really. 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.399 So didn't want to be in school. 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:07.439 But I remember the week after I graduated high school, my mom came in, threw the covers off me and said, Get up, you've got to find a better job, because you're not gonna live here and sleep like this, you know? 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:07.920 Wow. 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:26.079 And so I got up, I went out and I applied uh there at Big Spring State Hospital, applied there, and I also, one of my girlfriends in high school, her dad was the police and chief, chief of police there in Big Spring, and I went and talked to him, and he said, Well, come in, fill out an application. 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:31.199 So I went in, I filled out an application at the police department as well for a jailer position. 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:44.160 And um I don't know how long later, maybe a week or two, I get a call from the state hospital, went out for an interview, and um they offered me a position. 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:53.920 And then the next day after that, the chief of police called me, and Chief Edwards was his name, called me, he says, Well, Brad, I want to offer you a position as a jailer. 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:58.000 So I asked him how much it cost or how much they were gonna pay. 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:03.199 And I honestly don't remember what it was, but I know it was less than what I was gonna make out of the state hospital. 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:06.720 And I said, Well, right now I probably ought to go where the money is. 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:08.959 So I went to work at the state hospital. 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:10.720 Really enjoyed that work. 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:20.560 Really enjoyed, I worked on the multiple disabilities unit, means that they were uh we called it mental retardation back then. 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:22.079 Of course, as you know, we don't use that. 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:23.519 Intellectual disability now. 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:24.079 Exactly. 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:24.639 Yep. 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:29.600 And uh they were also mentally ill, so which are two separate things. 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:38.959 And to be on that unit, you had to have uh mental illness diagnosis as well as uh mental retardation diagnosis. 00:07:39.519 --> 00:08:02.800 And I really enjoyed working with those low mentally functioning people trying to help them through their problems, and we had we were a behavioral analysis unit, uh behavior mod, and so I really enjoyed learning about behavior modification on the unit, and then I decided, you know, uh that was a really interesting field. 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:08.319 Still didn't really have a desire to go to college, didn't really have a direction, but I enjoyed the work. 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:31.680 Then when I met my ex-wife, she had a daughter already that was a year old, and uh Allison, and she Al uh Jennifer, my ex-wife, when we decided to get married, uh I was just kind of over the moon, of course, because I I didn't know if I'd ever get married. 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:39.519 But I also decided that I can't support a family working at the state hospital as an aide. 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:41.279 That's just not gonna be enough money. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:47.360 My wife and my newfound daughter need somebody that can support them. 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:51.039 So that's when almost literally overnight I grew up. 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:51.679 Wow. 00:08:51.919 --> 00:09:08.399 I said, you know what, I've got to go to college, I've got to be a man, I've got to show this daughter that I've got now, um, what it means to be a man and what it means to be a father, because her father wasn't involved in her pin her wife. 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:14.080 And I also had a daughter on the way from a girlfriend in high school. 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.000 Uh, that daughter's Kelsey. 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:26.720 And so as I figured I've got to uh do something, I've got to support these daughters, my wife, I've just got to be a man. 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:30.080 So I decided I'd go to school to be a psychologist. 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:47.919 That's I really enjoyed the work out there, and that my plan was to go all the way through, become a PhD level psychologist in forensic psychology, just because I enjoyed the law, which was one of the reasons why I thought about working with the police department. 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:52.639 And the forensic aspect of psychology really interested me. 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:57.919 So I went to, you know, school, undergrad for psychology. 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:04.320 And then when I graduated undergrad, that's when I was in the middle of my divorce. 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:08.559 And everything else was just too much. 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:10.960 I was like, I'm not going back

to school right now. 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.759 Um, divorce was in Fort Worth. 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:15.279 I was in Big Spring. 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:22.000 My undergrad was in Odessa, which is about 60 miles away, the opposite direction of Fort Worth. 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:34.639 So there was one semester I drove over 2,000 miles a week because of the legal proceedings, seeing my children, going to school, working, everything. 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:41.840 So, but we all should do what we have to do for our family, for our kids, for our wives, our spouses. 00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:43.679 I went into psychology. 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:54.480 I worked for Big Spring State Hospital, and then whenever I graduated, I was working for West Texas Center's for MHMR on their ACT team, sort of community treatment team. 00:10:54.799 --> 00:11:00.080 And then when I met Carrie, she was working at the state hospital. 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:08.639 And when we decided to get married, and we did get married, we decided she wanted to be down here where her mother and stepfather lived. 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:12.480 And so I told her, well, if one of us gets a job down there, we'll go. 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.919 And she got a job down here, so we came down. 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:32.000 And um I hadn't got a job yet, so I went out to do teaching out in Ingram, you know, substitute teaching, just uh have something to do, get a little extra income in while we were waiting for me to get a job. 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:42.080 And uh they hired me actually, the uh Mary Ward was the superintendent at the time, and she's like, I can't put you as a sub, you've got a degree. 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:49.279 And I was like, Well, I'm just trying to, you know, get a little extra money while I'm looking for a job in my career. 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:54.159 And she said, Well, we need a new coach over at Ingram Elementary. 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:55.120 Are you interested in that? 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:55.919 And I said, Sure. 00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:01.120 So I did that actually for I guess it was a semester back in '99. 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.720 Then I got I was the acting leader here in Kerville. 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:06.159 For MHDD? 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:06.480 Yep. 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:06.879 Okay. 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:12.480 They hired me as the leader and I went to do that in January of 2000. 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:18.799 And then I got accepted into law school and went to law school starting in August of 2000. 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:25.679 Now, at what point did you make the decision to go to law school instead of to actually become a psychologist like you originally wanted to? 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:26.240 Okay. 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:30.639 That's as I said earlier, I've always been interested in law. 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:40.399 And then when I met Carrie, and I'm glad you mentioned this, uh, I met Carrie and told her about my interest in law, and she said, Well, my dad's a lawyer. 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.519 And her dad is a lawyer from Oklahoma. 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:54.639 Uh, he no longer practices, but uh I was like, Oh, well, that's cool, and talked to him a little bit about it, and I decided I would give law a try. 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:56.159 Um That's a big try. 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:58.559 It's a big commitment for just a try. 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:00.399 Like, yeah, I like this. 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:01.600 Yeah, what the heck? 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:06.639 And and part of it was, you know, I was like I said, I was the acting leader. 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:19.840 I went into the field to help people, and uh as the acting leader, I had to deal a lot with politics and you know, well, we need money for this client for this or that or whatever. 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.799 And of course, it's a fight, you know, for obvious reasons. 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:40.000 And I always felt like I was dealing more with budget stuff and employee stuff and political stuff, and I just felt like, well, if I'm gonna deal with politics and crap like that, I'm gonna go to law school and be paid for it. 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:40.559 Wow. 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:44.320 So I thought, well, I'm gonna take a leap and do it. 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:46.480 And that's where I went. 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:48.639 And I went to law school at St. 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:49.440 Mary's. 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:54.799 After graduation, I thought, well, you know, if I never passed the bar, I still have that degree. 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:55.120 Sure. 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.120 It's it's a accomplishment. 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:00.480 Obviously, I passed the bar and you know, here I am. 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:01.600 How long ago is this? 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:02.720 How long have you been a lawyer? 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:07.519 I I was licensed on November 6, 2003. 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.879 You do a lot of criminal defense, right? 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:13.279 How? 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.320 That's something I don't think I could do. 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:17.679 How do you do that? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:25.120 Well, first of all, the way I explain it is you have to have two hats. 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:34.639 You have to have your personal hat, where you have your personal beliefs, your personal views, and your family and everything else. 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.519 And you have to have your work hat, your attorney hat. 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:42.879 And you have to be able to efficiently take one hat off and put the other hat on. 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:48.240 Because it is difficult sometimes to defend someone that has committed an atrocious crime. 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:49.120 Right. 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:55.919 And uh one of the ways that you do it is remember, you're not defending a behavior. 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:01.039 You're not going in there and saying, well, he did this, but it's okay.

00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:02.639 He should be okay. 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:09.600 You're not going in there and saying that, and you don't ever go in and lie and say he didn't necessarily do something. 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:17.600 You have to defend the Constitution, you defend the laws of the state and the procedure of our court system. 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:21.519 If you do that effectively, you're doing your job and you're doing it well. 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:29.440 Because if if our system is done properly, then it should work properly. 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:34.720 Doesn't always work properly, and that's sad, but that is a matter of fact. 00:15:35.840 --> 00:16:00.480 But you go in and you make sure that an investigation in a crime was done properly, that the victim's rights, the uh suspects' rights, and everybody that's involved, make sure that their rights are upheld, that the investigator properly advised the suspect of their Miranda rights if they apply. 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:02.320 Miranda rights don't always apply. 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:10.159 If you're standing out on the middle of a street and a cop comes up and asks you questions, says, Well, did you punch that person over there? 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:12.240 They don't have to advise you of their rights. 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.559 There's not uh an issue of Miranda there. 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:24.399 Miranda only comes into play when uh you are in custody with the police and you're being interrogated. 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:27.840 It's the only time that Miranda applies. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.120 Not the only time, but that's when it becomes applicable. 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:35.600 So um so that's the way you've got to be able to do it. 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:42.480 First of all, you've got to take your personal hat off and put on your attorney hat and kind of separate yourself out. 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:45.919 Because you gotta remember you are this person's advocate. 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:50.559 And you've got to advocate for them and for their rights. 00:16:51.840 --> 00:17:01.759 And if you always remember that you're actually advocating for our system and our laws, that's the best way to do it. 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:11.039 Because if you were wrongfully accused of a crime, you would want the laws to be upheld. 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:12.960 You would want your rights to be upheld. 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:23.920 You wouldn't want some officer to come in, throw you in handcuffs, put you in a little room, smack you upside the head a couple times, and say, I'm gonna do that again, unless you say that you did this crime. 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.720 And that's literally the way it used to be. 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:35.039 And still is that way sometimes, wrongfully, even here in America and other countries, it's the standard. 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:52.240 But um, if we can protect our suspects, even the ones that are flat out guilty from things like that happening and

wrongful confessions, uh wrongful arrests, then we can protect the people that are truly innocent. 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:54.480 It always makes me think of Michael Morton. 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:56.400 I don't know if you know who that is. 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:02.799 Back in the 80s, Michael Morton was at work, came home, found his wife dead, murdered. 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:05.440 And he immediately called the police. 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:17.119 The police came out, started investigating, and they decided that the husband did it, which husband's always, or the spouse is always first suspect. 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.920 And um he talked to him. 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:25.279 He didn't think anything of it because he was at work, he came home and found his wife. 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.960 He just wanted to find out who did it. 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:28.640 Well, they didn't look anywhere else. 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:37.920 They said the husband did it, that's what they had in their mind, and they pushed that evidence and that whole uh narrative forward. 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:51.119 The prosecutor ended up suppressing or not giving out information and evidence that was exculpatory that said, hey, he didn't do it or he couldn't have done it, didn't give it to the defense, kept it for himself. 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:59.759 And they ended up convicting Michael Morton, and he spent 25 years or so in prison for a crime he did not commit. 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:07.039 And they ended up finding out, uh, I think it was from DNA evidence, that he was innocent. 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:20.000 And he was released from prison, obviously, and he did a very good job of advocating for the Michael Morton Act, which is a an evidentiary act for criminal evidence. 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:26.799 Now, all criminal evidence has to be turned over to the defense, whether they think that it's exculpatory or not. 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:39.599 Now, before that, we have the Brady rule, uh, United States versus Brady, which is a Supreme Court case that says that the prosecution has to give the defense all exculpatory evidence. 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:43.519 If there's anything that's exculpatory, it has to go to the defense. 00:19:43.759 --> 00:20:03.279 Um But because the prosecutor in Michael Morton's case didn't didn't even follow Brady, and then had held other information, they passed the Michael Morton Act now and says that everything has to go to the defense and cannot be withheld, regardless of whether you think it's exculpatory or not. 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:11.039 So when you were young, what happened when you got in trouble? 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:16.319 When I got in trouble with uh with anything in your household. 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:19.119 Anything in my household, oh, we got in trouble big time. 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:20.559 What is that what does that look like? 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:29.519 Well, uh yelled at, we would get grounded, and I grew up in the day that if you did something bad enough, you got to paddle. 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:42.559 You know, and while I understand that that's not the way it is the world is today, I think that that's part of the problem with our society is that we don't properly correct our children. 00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:50.240 Whatever that proper correction is, is up for a parent to decide, I think, uh obviously within reason. 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:52.799 Every child is going to be different. 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:54.559 I needed a paddle. 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:55.599 I'll be honest. 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:59.039 I was not the sweet little kid. 00:20:59.119 --> 00:20:59.920 I tried to be. 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.480 I mean, I think I was to a certain degree. 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:05.279 I think it was more mischievous than bad. 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:12.319 You know, I tried to get away with stuff and see what else I could do without somebody knowing, things like that. 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.160 But I needed the paddle. 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:17.920 Otherwise, you know, grounding to me or restrictions. 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.720 All right, well, I'll get it back soon. 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:25.279 Now, what would happen if you actually didn't do it? 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:27.519 Would your parents hear you out? 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.640 Yeah, I mean, they would listen to us and, you know, well, you tell me the story. 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:34.720 What happened then, you know, and you could tell them. 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:51.279 And my parents have stood up for us before and when we were little, and you know, he also I remember one time across the street, there was a a big glass door, and uh I shot it with a B B. 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:59.839 And uh, you know, Noel, the guy that lived there, came across and said, I think your son shot my door with a B B or something. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.640 And, you know, they came in, they asked, and I told them, yes, I did. 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:07.839 And so I had to pay for that window. 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:13.519 And did that by mowing lawns or whatever, washing cars, anything I could do to get some money. 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:27.519 Well, then our neighbor to the south of us, um, my bedroom window faced their living room window, and they would come over and say I was shooting their windows, which I wasn't. 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:31.200 And uh, of course they weren't broken or anything. 00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:36.079 And uh parents would ask me, and I'd say, no, I swear I'm not. 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.079 And they believed me because if they asked, I was always honest. 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.960 You know, because if I I'm always one to own up to a mess up. 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:47.039 I think that's the way to do it. 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:53.440 Not everybody does, but so my parents did give me an opportunity to explain. 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:58.319 Sometimes I did something wrong that I

felt was right at the time. 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:03.119 And they they would listen to me and tell me, nope, you're still wrong. 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:05.680 Or sometimes, well, okay, well, I can understand it. 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:08.079 I feel like my parents were pretty reasonable. 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.519 Well, the word that you actually used was they would advocate for you. 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:12.880 Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:21.839 They would advocate if if they felt like with the neighbor that kept arguing saying I was shooting at their window, well, they would advocate. 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:24.400 They'd say, Well, is your window broken? 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:25.519 No. 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:30.000 Say, well, that's like a 15 foot, 20 foot maybe. 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:33.200 And if he was shooting it with his BB gun, they'd be broken. 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:38.480 I mean, across the street broke this big pain glass window with his BB gun. 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:42.400 And you're gonna tell me that 15, 20 feet didn't break it? 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.359 And uh, you know, they I remember the argument. 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.160 How did that make you feel that your parents were advocating for you? 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:49.359 Oh, I loved it. 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.880 You know, it made me feel like, hey, you know what, they've got my back. 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:57.519 And as long as I'm honest with them, when I screw up, they'll always have my back. 00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.119 And I feel like they did. 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:01.839 Kind of sounds like attorney client privilege, right? 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:02.160 Yeah. 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:03.759 I I'd say so, yeah. 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:24.079 I wonder if that has any connection to why you decided to basically become an advocate for these people who are being accused of maybe something they did not do, because you were accused of something you did not do, and you had somebody, you know what it felt like, to have somebody that said actually no, and the way that they did that sounded like an attorney in courtroom. 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:26.240 Like, actually, this is 15 to 20 feet away. 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:30.799 Yeah, and actually, you know, I've really never given that that much thought, but you're right. 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:38.480 That very well could be a big part of why I decided to become an attorney and an advocate for people that need an advocate. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:46.960 The um now, once again, I wasn't I wasn't a bad kid, but I wouldn't say I was, you know, the straight-laced kid either. 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:48.960 What was underneath that behavior? 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:52.160 Attention seeking, I'll be honest. 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:55.039 I I really think that that's a big part of it. 00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:01.039 Um being the youngest, the youngest always feel like they're being left behind or whatever. 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:08.160 And you know, every child has, you know, you got the middle child syndrome, you got the oldest that gets everything they want. 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:09.279 I was the oldest, yeah. 00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:16.240 Oh, and so every child has their uh niche, I guess, or niche, however you want to say it. 00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:20.400 Um so I think a lot of it was probably attention seeking. 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:37.119 But another time that I remember being advocated for by my parents was I remember I was in my car with a few of my friends, and we had gone to Waterburger, and we parked at the high school parking lot. 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:46.400 We're sitting there eating our burgers and stuff, and these kids walked up and acted like they were gonna hit my car with a baseball bat. 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:47.759 Out of like nowhere? 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:51.680 Yeah, they just walked up and they were like, you know, acting like they were gonna do it. 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:58.640 So I jumped out and I said, what the heck, you know, and probably a few choice teenage words, if you know what I mean. 00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:01.039 And uh, well, they ran off. 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:06.720 No big deal, got back in my car, we finished eating, went on about our way. 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:09.440 Didn't think anything about it. 00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:25.200 About six months or so later, the cops go over to one of my friends' house and knocks on his door and said, Hey, do you know anybody that drives a, if I remember right, a brown pickup truck with a I love my beer sticker on the back? 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:30.480 And John's like, No, I don't know anything about anybody that drives a car like that. 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:31.359 You sure? 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:42.079 Because, you know, apparently a few months ago they were in the parking lot at the high school, pulled a gun on some kids and told them they were gonna play Russian roulette with them, or something like this. 00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:43.839 And he's like, I don't know. 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:46.400 I I don't know anybody that would do that. 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:50.160 And uh I don't know anybody with a truck like that either. 00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:53.359 So, no, we didn't think anything about it. 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.640 We did not attach it to that incident at all. 00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:01.279 And then uh, and John wasn't even actually there at that time. 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:07.279 The only reason why they went to his house is because these kids said they always saw it at that house, at his house. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:16.400 Well, probably another three or four months after that, they came knocking on my door and they said, Do you have a brown truck? 00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:17.359 I'm like, No. 00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:18.240 What do you drive? 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:20.799 I said, That dodge detona right there. 00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:26.480 It wasn't

brown, it was gold, actually, but you know, it could be perceived as brown. 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:31.759 Um, and he says, Do you have an I Love My Beer sticker on it anyway? 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:32.960 I said, No. 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:34.319 Have you ever had one? 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:36.480 I said, No, my parents wouldn't let me have that. 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:41.519 I'm only 16 years old, you know, they're not gonna let me drive around with I Love Beer sticker. 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:48.319 And it was, I mean, it was the 80s, but still, it was not they were still not gonna let me do that. 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:55.680 Um, so anyway, they said, Well, we I want you to come down and talk to us at the station. 00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:57.279 And I was like, Well, what about? 00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:00.240 And so, well, we think you're involved in this incident. 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:06.559 And my mom was there at the house, and and uh she said, Well, does he need to go with you? 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:07.680 Do I need to take him? 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:08.960 She said, Whatever you want. 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:10.400 I said, I'll go with the cop. 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:11.519 You know, I didn't mind. 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:14.079 I I broke into the department with the officer. 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:15.200 My mom followed. 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:24.960 We went down there and we got into the interview room and started, he told me the story, and I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. 00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:26.400 I don't own a gun. 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:31.519 I mean, I have a 22, a long rifle 22 that stays in my parents' room. 00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:39.759 He says, Well, you know, it was you and uh John Farmer and this other kid named Rocky. 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:42.880 I'm like, Rocky? 00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:44.799 Well, I don't really hang around Rocky. 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:54.559 The only time I remember being with Rocky, and I do know what you're talking about if this is the incident, and he because he was the other person in the car that day. 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.599 A Whataburger. 00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:59.200 Yeah, that well, at the high school parking lot after we went to Whataburger. 00:28:59.359 --> 00:28:59.680 Okay. 00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:04.960 I said, this has to be the incident, but we don't, I don't own a gun, and nobody pulled a gun. 00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:09.680 And I told them the story, and uh they said, okay, well, let me go and check. 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:11.680 And I guess he went out there and called the kids. 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.480 I don't know if they may have been there for all I know. 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:21.680 But he went out and he came back in and he said, uh, no, they uh said that you had a gun, you pulled it off. 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:24.880 I said, I don't own a gun. 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:27.599 And as far as I know, Jeff doesn't own a gun. 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:31.680 And

I don't know about Rocky, but yeah, I know we didn't have one that day. 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.880 And um, so a couple of times of this, and them going out. 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:38.559 And finally I said, Look, you know what? 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:40.240 I'll take a lie detector test. 00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:42.960 Let's do that, and you can put them on a lie detector test. 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:44.480 Let's see who's lying. 00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.240 And um, so he said, Well, let me see something real quick. 00:29:48.319 --> 00:30:09.119 And then he went out there, and I assume at this point he's at least calling them because he came back in and he said, You know what, after I told them that, that you would do a lie detector test and asked that they do one, they admitted that they were lying, that there was no gun, that all you did is get out and yell at them because they were trying to act like they were gonna hit your car. 00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:18.000 And of course my mom was there, and she I don't remember how much advocating she did, but she was there to protect me. 00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:20.799 And, you know, she told me, she said, Do we need to get a lawyer? 00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:23.119 I said, I didn't do anything, you know. 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:25.440 And But she was still ready to have your back. 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:27.519 Oh, she was there, she was ready to have my back. 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:30.720 And I rem she didn't tell the cops, I can't imagine he would do this. 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:34.480 And I know he doesn't have a gun, so I don't know where he would have had a gun. 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:46.079 What's interesting too, when it comes to your mom, you said uh originally you said that your mom would stand up for you, she'd advocate for you with your dad whenever you know you got in trouble. 00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:51.039 And you know, she advocated for you then, she went with you to the police station this time. 00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:54.079 They advocated for you with the BB gun incident. 00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:56.559 Sounds like mom really had your back. 00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:57.680 Oh, absolutely. 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:02.160 Now, when mom got diagnosed at 15, 16 years old, is how old you were, is that correct? 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:03.039 Yeah, I was fifty. 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:18.319 I I said 15, but I'm pretty sure I must have been 16 because after because she came and picked me up from my job because I didn't have a car yet, but I must have had my license because then we went home and then I drove away in in her van. 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:20.640 So and went to a friend's house. 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:21.440 I do remember that. 00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:22.640 So I must have been 16. 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:26.240 What do you remember about learning about your mom's depression? 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:32.559 Well, I remember thinking when she was telling me this, I was thinking, oh my god, is she gonna die? 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:35.440 Is this, you know, what what's going on? 00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:43.680 And I just remember um going to the library at school and trying to find something about it. 00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:49.680 And, you know, back then the information wasn't as available as it is today. 00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:55.519 Um, I do remember finding out that it wasn't something that she's gonna die from or anything else. 00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:58.720 Um and then it just interested me. 00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:01.359 And through the years, I I did more research on it. 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:06.880 When you started doing all of that research, was it kind of like connecting the dots with behaviors you had seen in your mom prior? 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:08.079 Absolutely it was. 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:08.559 Yeah. 00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:12.319 Because even I remember the night she told me it's just, I want to apologize. 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:23.839 You know, you've probably noticed over the past few months that I've acted a little different and I've been a little touchy and sensitive about things and maybe yelled or griped about things that didn't deserve it or whatever. 00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:28.720 And I remember my response to that is it's okay, mom, I know what it means to be on your period. 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:30.960 Oh my gosh! Yep. 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:36.640 I I was dumb kid, and I thought she was just apologizing for her menstrual cycle. 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:41.279 I didn't know, and you know, and she said, No, it's not that, it's more than that. 00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:50.720 And she said it's a chemical imbalance and told me what it was, and she said, But I'm trying to get some treatment for it, and which she did. 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.799 And um, you know, but it's still it scared the hell out of me. 00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:59.920 Well, growing up when you were younger, was your mom always kind of that way, touchy? 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:02.880 I don't really remember her being real touchy. 00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:03.440 No. 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:09.359 I mean, I don't think and she may have been more that you just don't notice as a child. 00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:10.000 Sure. 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.519 And it may have been a lot that she hid it from us. 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:18.720 Um, but I don't remember her being short or moody moody. 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:20.240 I don't really remember that. 00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:21.839 How about your dad? 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:42.000 No, my dad, I mean, my dad was he was a disciplinarian, you know, born in the early 40s and grew up in the his dad his parents grew up through the Great Depression and they were very strict and you know, he was an authoritarian, but I wouldn't say he was moody, you know. 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:46.160 If you did something wrong, you got yelled at and you knew you did something wrong. 00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.279 But I don't know that moody would be

the answer. 00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:57.359 I don't know if I'd say that, but well, it seems as though you had a lot of emotional safety in your house growing up, regardless of that authoritarian parenting. 00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:04.559 Your parents like did listen to you, they did advocate for you, and you did not have a hard time admitting when you did do something wrong. 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:05.119 Right. 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:12.880 And so when you have these clients that are coming into your office and it's like all the evidence is presenting that you did this, homie, right? 00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:18.960 Like and they are still doubling down on I I didn't do it, I swear, right? 00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.480 How do you how do you handle that? 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:27.920 Well, first of all, with all of my clients, I tell them my life. 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.079 I I I'm I'm an open book. 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:35.679 I don't want them to come in and feel like they're under interrogation with me. 00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:37.840 I want them to know who I am. 00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:44.639 Um they're able to ask me questions about my life, about how I grew up, just like you are right now. 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:45.760 I mean, honestly. 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:54.400 Because I feel if we have certain relationships and they know they have certain freedoms with me, I think they'll be more open and honest with me. 00:34:54.639 --> 00:35:02.719 And I think that leads to a better attorney-client relationship as far as my ability to represent them and to advocate for them. 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:18.800 Um, and if they feel more comfortable with me, they're more apt to say, okay, you know what, I did this, but I I would have didn't intend to do it, or this is why I did it, and which helps me uh devise a better defense. 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:31.119 Because if I go to court and I don't know some of the stuff that's going on and what happened, and I get to court and the prosecutor brings it out in front of a jury, and then I'm like, wait a minute, I didn't know this. 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.800 It's harder to deal with in front of a jury. 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:39.840 And so if my clients open and honest with me, it's much easier. 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:47.440 It just because they come in and say, Look, man, I did, I stole that car, you know, I saw the keys in it, and I thought, hey, why not? 00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:49.280 You know, I'm tired of walking. 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.239 You know, I can deal with that. 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:58.880 It's when they come in and absolutely deny it, and they say, Look, man, I wasn't anywhere near that. 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.840 I was in San Antonio at the time, I wasn't here in Terrville. 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:05.840 And then the prosecutor comes up with a video, you know, a home video. 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:09.119 And it's flat out, you can tell it's them. 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:21.840 And if that happens

and I don't know how to deal with it, now in this day and age it's much easier because I'm gonna have that video before court, but maybe I won't have it at a bond hearing. 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:29.360 And there's something that comes out that they haven't told me about before a bond hearing, then that can slap you in the face in the hearing. 00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:38.880 So I always try to project that to my clients so that they'll be open and honest with me, so that I can better advocate for. 00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:51.920 Have you ever had a person openly confess to you that they did something horrific, like child sexual assault? 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:57.760 Have they been honest to that point with you and then you still have to go defend them in court? 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:04.239 I've defended a few child sexual assault people that don't like doing it. 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:06.159 Most of them just deny it, you know. 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:07.599 Shame, right? 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:09.039 It's it's the shame. 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:10.480 Absolutely, I think so. 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:10.880 Yeah. 00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:14.000 And uh I mean, I had one a few years ago. 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:16.000 It was a bad case. 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:18.719 And uh I think I know which one you're talking about. 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:21.519 Where the grandfather Yeah, the grandfather got the little girl pregnant. 00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:22.239 Yes. 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:28.320 And I told him, dude, yeah, I mean, this is a life sentence. 00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:31.199 The way they have you charged, if you're convicted, it's life. 00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:32.719 It's automatic life. 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:37.679 And um they offered him twenty-five years. 00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:41.840 They would drop the continual part of it. 00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:43.840 And uh he's I didn't do it. 00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:44.480 I didn't do it. 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:46.800 DNA, the the DNA was there! 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:50.719 Absolutely, the DNA was there, and I can't tell you. 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:54.639 I talked to him when it's just wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. 00:37:54.960 --> 00:38:00.480 And so he did say, Well, you know what, maybe my brother did something. 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:06.239 And uh that's the only thing I can he he wouldn't he would not listen. 00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:07.840 What did what did you believe? 00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:09.440 Because I know all the details of that case. 00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:12.639 What did you believe happened while you were fighting this? 00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:14.400 Well, what did you believe? 00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:16.320 I believed that he was guilty. 00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:20.239 Um, and of course, I can't go into a lot of stuff, which is of attorney client privilege. 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:20.880 Well, of course. 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:25.599 But um just with the evidence that I saw, I believed that he was guilty. 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:28.559 Uh the DNA was spot on. 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:29.119 Yeah. 00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:37.440 I mean, I I did everything I could to say that the DNA was tainted or not intentionally tainted or anything like that. 00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:48.000 But and then we also tried to steer the jury to the the his brother who I can't believe this guy would try to implicate his his brother. 00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:49.519 Yeah you're a family guy. 00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:52.480 Like you're big on family, protecting family. 00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:55.519 How did that what how did that make you feel? 00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:03.760 Well, I took off my family hat and I put on my that's where I could not do your job. 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:10.639 Because here's the part that I go back to with a case just like that one, because I watched the the next trial after that that was related to the case. 00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:11.440 I was there in person. 00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:13.599 I'm assure yours, but I was there for the next one. 00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:29.199 And the hardest part for me is I am sitting there, I'm watching the defense attorney, and I know that the defense attorney has daughters, and I'm like, you are arguing to let this man, who I don't care if he told you he did it or not, the evidence all points at it. 00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:30.320 She says that he did it. 00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:33.199 There's a bunch of other stuff pointing to the fact that he did it. 00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:47.679 All this stuff is pointing that this guy hurts little girls, and you are over here saying that she's a liar, you are intimidating her while she's on the stand, you're making her super uncomfortable, she's crying. 00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:49.280 You have daughters. 00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:51.760 I don't think I could do that. 00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:52.719 It's hard. 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:54.159 Sometimes it's very hard. 00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:56.079 Like you're gonna let this guy out. 00:39:56.159 --> 00:40:02.880 Like it could potentially be because you were such a damn good defense attorney that this guy's walking around your daughters. 00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:12.159 How does how I it's very difficult to do that sometimes, but it's an oath that we take. 00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:13.280 What is the oath? 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:15.280 Tell me, like, how that plays into it. 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:29.920 Well, the oath is to uphold the law, to advocate fiercely and zealously for our clients to the best of our ability, but always uphold the law, you know, and you advocate for that law, whatever that may be. 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:35.280 And um now that client was always adamant. 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:36.159 I didn't do this. 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:37.440 There's something somewhere. 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:51.760 And you know, if if something was somewhere that he falsely put that evidence in, you know, somebody put that evidence in falsely or

something, I couldn't find it, doesn't mean that somebody else couldn't find it. 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:55.039 You know, I'm I'm not deluded. 00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:57.199 I don't think I'm the best attorney in the world. 00:40:57.360 --> 00:40:58.880 I don't have a shirt that says that. 00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:01.599 I have a shirt that says world's okayest attorney. 00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:03.039 Actually, lawyer. 00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:04.960 It says world's okayest lawyer. 00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:11.840 Um, but I just don't think that's the case in that situation. 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:15.920 I don't believe that somebody tainted the evidence. 00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:19.519 I don't believe that somebody planted his DNA. 00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:28.880 Uh watching all of the interviews and seeing all of the evidence points to the fact that he was guilty. 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:41.760 So whenever you were going in and then like trying to steer the jury or like we're going in for this whole my brother did it type of a thing, and you're looking at everything like, homie, just go ahead and admit it already, right? 00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:53.280 Like when all of that's going on, at what point has there ever been a point for you where you've been like, I'm gonna do the bare minimum because I don't like what this guy did? 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:54.880 I have not ever done that. 00:41:55.039 --> 00:42:08.719 Um, I could see somebody doing that, but I I feel too bound by my I mean, I worked too hard to become an attorney. 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:14.639 I mean, I worked hard to become to get my undergrad, and then all the time I spent to become an attorney. 00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:24.320 I mean, I was a full-time dad, um, lived, you know, 75 miles away from the school and drove every day and all of that. 00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:27.519 Um, I'm not gonna throw it away. 00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:30.239 I'm not saying by doing anything you're not supposed to do. 00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:35.519 I'm saying, like, there's obviously like this is what you're required to do, and then you can go above that, right? 00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:46.159 At what point are you like, I'm doing the bare minimum of what I am required to do under this oath, versus, all right, we're gonna freaking go for it and I'm gonna try to get this horrible human off. 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.039 I don't, I don't think I've ever done that, though. 00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:51.679 I think I've always done everything I could. 00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:57.039 I mean, maybe there might be, and of course, every attorney does this. 00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:01.920 It when you lose a case, you always say, okay, was there something more I could have done or should have done? 00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:07.440 No matter how hard you fight, no matter what you do, there's always gonna be that in the back of your head. 00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:10.400 Most of the time it's in the front of your head for a couple days. 00:43:10.639 -->

00:43:23.440 Um, even in that case where the right choice uh and right verdict happened, I still think to myself, okay, well, what could I have done or what should have I done differently? 00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:26.400 Just because that's that's your oath. 00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:36.079 That is your job, and you want to do your job to the best of your ability, or you should want to, even if it means getting somebody like that off. 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:44.159 Have you ever had a case where you did get somebody off and you felt like they did it, and then you were like, you felt bad about it? 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:45.920 No, actually, I don't think I have. 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:46.480 Really? 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:47.280 Yeah. 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:59.199 Um, all of my not guilties, I feel like, were either they were not guilty, or if they were guilty, it wasn't something that they really intended to do. 00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:02.719 It wasn't Uh something like what we've been talking about. 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:03.599 You know what I mean? 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:09.280 When you're first meeting one of these clients and you are building rapport with them, right? 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:11.360 And they're telling you their story. 00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:18.559 How often do you think that you see the human underneath the behavior? 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:22.400 Initially, I rarely see the human. 00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:23.360 Because really. 00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:32.320 Yeah, because I have to go in a little skeptical because it's human nature to make yourself look good to everybody in every situation. 00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:38.639 You're always gonna walk in with, you know, well, I I wasn't speeding officer, right? 00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:42.159 Or I didn't know I was speeding, even though you knew. 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:46.559 Or whatever the case is, you always try to make yourself look better. 00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:47.920 That's just human nature. 00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:58.719 So I can't go in and see, or I try not to go in and see the human at first, because I know it's not always going to be exactly right or true. 00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:09.440 And then after a few meetings, and I tell them about me, and I make them understand that you know what, we're all human, we all make mistakes. 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:15.280 It's what you do with that mistake that shows what kind of a person you are. 00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:21.840 And, you know, let's see what we can do to fix the mistakes that you've made, whatever those are. 00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:27.519 And as they get to know that that's truly the way I feel, then they become more comfortable. 00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:30.960 And sometimes they'll admit it and sometimes they won't. 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:35.840 And then I just defend their rights and defend them the best I can. 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:46.400 I think that for me, that would be where I would have a hard time doing what you do, is because

regardless of the crime, it can be a heinous crime, horrible crime. 00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:51.199 Like with the case that we were talking about where the grandfather did the unimaginable. 00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:51.840 Yes. 00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:58.800 I don't like the behavior that the adult did but I automatically go to what happened to him as a child. 00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:08.719 And that part it's like I have to look at them as two completely different human beings because part of me hates what this man did to this poor little girl. 00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:13.840 But the other part of me has compassion for that little boy that likely had something very similar happen to him. 00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:14.400 Yep. 00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:22.480 And that would be the hardest part for me in any kind of criminal defense because I'm like, okay, yeah, I can see that you did this, but the behaviors are symptoms. 00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:24.480 What's going on underneath this? 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:30.159 That's actually part of my uh interview process usually is okay. 00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:33.119 Do you have anything in your history? 00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:38.239 Do you have any psychological issues, any mental illnesses, any trauma? 00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:39.440 Everybody has trauma. 00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:40.639 Oh, everybody has trauma. 00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:41.760 Everybody has trauma. 00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:44.559 And and that's Yeah, if you say you don't have trauma, you're alive. 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:45.119 You're lying. 00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:52.320 Well, or you just don't understand that the definition of trauma is because I think trauma, I don't think, I know, trauma exists on a spectrum. 00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:52.480 Yeah. 00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:53.599 Like anything else. 00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:55.599 You've got, and it's all about perspective. 00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:07.760 It's all about how we interpret what happened to us, not exactly the experience, because our brain only highlights certain parts of what exactly happened, and two people can experience the exact same event, walk away with very different realities, right? 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:08.239 Absolutely. 00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:10.559 So it boils down to that interpretation. 00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:12.559 It's like, what did my brain learn from this? 00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:17.519 What rule did my brain create as a result of what happened to me? 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:27.840 How these experiences, especially when they happen alone without repair, and we don't have the ability to like understand what happens, that's when our brain goes ding, ding, ding, core memory. 00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:37.119 Okay, we're gonna like file this one away for adulthood, and this is just gonna create a pattern in your life, and you're not gonna know what to do with it until eventually you're forced to face it, right? 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:37.519 Right. 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:47.840 So I'm curious with

your you know, need for attention is what you were calling it when you were a teenager and you got caught, you know, stealing dad's car and all of those things. 00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:54.320 If you were, you know, crying out for attention, what was the loneliness before that for you? 00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:56.639 When do you remember feeling alone? 00:47:57.119 --> 00:47:58.000 I don't know. 00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:30.960 Um, because I'd never I think it was more about because my obviously my mom and my sister because same uh sex and daughters do things with their moms, and then my dad and my brother have such their personalities are so similar, and they had the same likes and everything, and their their personalities though, it's just exactly the same, and I don't have that same personality. 00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:38.159 I think that made me, you know, internalize that a little bit and may have made me feel a little excluded. 00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:45.360 Um it most certainly wasn't ever anything that my family ever did because we were all included in everything. 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:53.039 Um we never, you know, had to sit back while we had big parties for this kid, and then I didn't get it, you know. 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:56.239 I always had the parties and all of that stuff. 00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:58.320 They were equal opportunity employers, I got you. 00:48:58.559 --> 00:48:59.280 Absolutely, yeah. 00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:13.199 If I had any loneliness, it would have been from because I started because I was very I was premature and I was very small, thin, healthy, uh, until about the sixth grade. 00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:22.639 Um that is and one of the first times I really remember um probably first trauma was uh a friend of mine died. 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:26.239 She was hit by a car and died. 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:30.800 Um and that I mean, I wasn't there. 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:35.840 It wasn't not that I saw it or anything, but you know, a friend dies, and you know, it's a little bit traumatic. 00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:36.960 How old were you? 00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:38.000 I was in the fifth grade. 00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:40.880 It was between fifth and sixth grade summer. 00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:42.320 So like 10, 11. 00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:42.960 Yeah. 00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:53.840 And then in the sixth grade, my brother, and this is interesting because he became a paramedic firefighter and eventually the uh fire chief there in Big Spring until he retired. 00:49:54.000 --> 00:50:00.800 I was in the sixth grade, he was in the seventh grade, and we rode dirt bikes all over town, rode dirt bikes a lot. 00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:13.840 Him and two of our friends were out riding along, um, doing about 50 miles an hour, if I remember right, from the story, and a truck turned in front of Charlie and killed him. 00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:18.960 Right, and my brother and then Terry and then Charlie was in front. 00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:31.440 And uh,

you know, I remember uh it the helmet fell off, Craig said, and blood coming from his ears and his nose, and nobody was helping, you know. 00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:42.719 They had called the ambulance and nobody was doing much, and I remember Craig asking mom why nobody was helping him, you know, when they were there, and then of course they take him to the hospital and he passed away. 00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.760 But, you know, though that I think is what led Craig to where he is. 00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:48.719 Absolutely. 00:50:49.039 --> 00:51:07.840 And um when I was 15 is when my best friend, Kenneth, he died in a go-kart accident, which I may I probably would be dead too because he wanted me to go out there, but I was mad at him for uh an argument we had a couple weeks before that night. 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:20.159 They were on the service road about interstate and came out from under a bridge and a van on the service road hit him, killed him, and so I think that of course was a big trauma in my life. 00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:26.000 And at that point, I felt alone because my best friend was gone all of a sudden. 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:29.519 And I mean, I had a lot of friends growing up, by the way. 00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:32.880 I mean, my kids say, My God, you had a lot of best friends. 00:51:33.039 --> 00:51:35.920 You had a lot of close friends in high school. 00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:36.960 Said I did. 00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:46.480 I mean, you know, we all like to hang around and but I was the I was the fat fun friend, if you want to call it that. 00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:52.159 And um, you know, I don't feel like I had any enemies in high school. 00:51:52.239 --> 00:52:01.760 I mean, I hung around with the preppy people, the the nerds, I hung around with the We're very relational human beings, very warm and relational human beings. 00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:02.480 I try. 00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:08.320 I mean, I think everybody deserves respect, and if you do that, you can have fun and enjoy a conversation. 00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:10.639 And that's the way I've always been. 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:14.400 But I feel like everybody liked me and we hung around a lot. 00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:19.199 But I never really had a girlfriend until I was a senior in high school. 00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:23.199 And that always, I think, made me feel alone, you know. 00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:26.960 So I think that may be where any kind of loneliness came from, too. 00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:34.559 Well, also your sister had your mom and they were besties because they were the same sex, and then your dad and your brother were so much alike. 00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:48.400 So when you experienced these crazy events of your friend dying, being hit by a car, and then your other friend dying in that go-karting accident, who was there for you to talk about this with? 00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:53.920 Yeah, well, and to my parents' uh credit, they were there. 00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:58.559 I mean, they they made themselves available and but did you actually open up? 00:52:58.800 --> 00:52:58.960 No. 00:52:59.119 --> 00:52:59.280 Yeah. 00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:01.039 I was not an open person. 00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:10.239 I don't um I mean, I talk about things now, but back when I was young, I I didn't talk about trauma. 00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:14.239 Same and I didn't see it as trauma a lot. 00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:18.000 I just uh it's an event, it's life, it's what happens and you move on. 00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:22.719 And to this day, probably because of a lot of that, I don't cry. 00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:27.840 And my wife, she has said she said she's only seen me cry twice. 00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:29.519 What did you cry about those two times? 00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:32.559 The first time was when I was paralyzed. 00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:37.039 Uh I and it wasn't the day I was paralyzed, I was fine. 00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:38.159 I was okay with it. 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:53.119 It was when I left the hospital in San Antonio and we were driving back to Kerrville, which I was going to the uh inpatient rehab, and I was in the car and we were listening to uh Live Like You Were Dying, and that song just hit me. 00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:55.519 Because I've always lived like that, by the way. 00:53:55.760 --> 00:54:01.519 I've always I guess probably because of the you know deaths of my friends growing up. 00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:05.199 You know, I've always lived like I was dying. 00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:13.679 I've always, you know, bungee jump, skydive, dirt bike riding, scuba diving, everything that people want to do, I do. 00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:28.960 So anyway, we were listening to that song and it just hit me and it hit me that I can't live like I'm dying anymore because I'm paralyzed. 00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:31.760 And it it affected me. 00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:33.280 And it w it wasn't long. 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:34.960 I mean, it was probably ten seconds. 00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:38.880 And I still love that song because I think everybody should live like that. 00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:40.079 Because you never know. 00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:41.679 First of all, you are dying. 00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:45.519 Uh, from the day we're born, the second we're born, we start to die. 00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:51.519 There is a halfway point in everybody's life, but from the day you're born, that's when you begin to die. 00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:55.679 And you never know when that day will be. 00:54:56.239 --> 00:55:03.119 So, I mean, I could leave here and on my way home have a blowout and end up in upside down in a ditch that nobody finds me for a week. 00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:10.880 You know, God, I hope not, but that's just a fact of life, and it happens every day to unsuspecting people. 00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:18.639 And I don't want to be in that truck upside down in a ditch thinking, man, I really wanted to scuba dive before I died.

00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:22.239 Well, I've done it, and I still do it every opportunity I get. 00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:24.239 I really wish I had a skydived. 00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:25.039 Well, I've done it. 00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:27.119 Wish I could still do it, but I can't. 00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:29.840 You know, a bungee jump, I've done that many times. 00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:34.559 All of this stuff that I've always wanted to do, I've done. 00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:39.199 And now, of course, there's many things I want to do before I die. 00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:42.320 It's not saying that I'm ready to die by any means. 00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:45.920 I still I've got nine grandkids that I love very much. 00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:55.519 I want to watch each one of them grow up and graduate from high school and hopefully be around for their weddings and who knows, maybe great grandchildren, all of that good stuff. 00:55:55.679 --> 00:55:56.800 I want to be there. 00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:01.360 So I haven't accomplished everything I want to accomplish in life, but I've done a lot. 00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:04.559 I feel like I've done more than probably the average person. 00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:06.480 What was the second time? 00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:08.400 Uh, when my mother died. 00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:20.960 We were sitting in um my parents' house at the dinner table, and it was me, my brother, sister, their spouses, and my wife. 00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:47.280 We were going through pictures for the funeral and picking music for the funeral, and um uh Glenn Campbell came on, one of them, it was Rhinestone Cowboy, because that was always my favorite song as a kid, and anytime we traveled, which we traveled a lot, we and we drove everywhere we went. 00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:52.960 We never flew um as a kid, and uh we had this big black van. 00:56:53.519 --> 00:57:00.239 And our whole family, all my cousins, everybody talks about our actual friends growing up, they all still talk about it. 00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:04.960 If I go and we have a reunion or something, oh we remember the big black van, you know. 00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:11.760 And grew up in the time where you didn't sit in seats, and the back van back part of that van was empty. 00:57:11.840 --> 00:57:15.519 And me and my brother would get back there and we'd play baseball in the back of a van. 00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:33.280 I mean, you know, and so but anyway, the in that van had an eight-track take player to the 70s, you know, and they put in uh Rhinestone Cowboy, the whole family just sing right along with it, like we were part of Glenn's band. 00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:38.880 And so when that came on and uh it just hit me, you know, it was just a lot. 00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:43.440 So what do you think the actual trigger was in that that hit you? 00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:47.280 The fact that mom will never be there again to sing it with us. 00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:52.079 So it was just a realization moment,

I think. 00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:54.639 Yeah, everything does come to an end. 00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:55.519 Yep. 00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:00.800 But those are the only two times that she's ever seen me cry, and it's not that I don't want to. 00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:10.639 You know, when I have traumatic things that most people would cry about happen in my life, I sit there and I I feel it, and I'm like, just let it out. 00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:14.639 Let a tear fall, let you know, I try, it just doesn't happen. 00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:15.280 It's not a few. 00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:19.199 What would happen when you were a kid and you would cry? 00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:20.639 Nothing. 00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:24.800 Like you weren't told to go to your room and cry or stop crying or learn something to cry about. 00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:27.280 Yeah, I mean I can't imagine why. 00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:37.039 Yeah, and that's um I th it was never it was go to your room because I don't want to listen to you. 00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:38.000 So go be alone. 00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:38.800 Yeah. 00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:43.280 Um and yeah, if you don't stop crying, I'm gonna give you something to cry about. 00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:49.360 And but it was n I never got something to cry about that I ever remember, you know. 00:58:50.239 --> 00:59:00.800 Um but I really didn't start I didn't really stop crying, I don't think, until after Kenneth died. 00:59:01.039 --> 00:59:08.400 I think that because after he died, that was my that was right before sophomore year of high school. 00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:12.639 And from then on I didn't have a direction. 00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:20.000 I was pissed off at the world, I was angry, I was depressed, although I didn't talk to anybody about it. 00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:24.800 I didn't go and tell my mom and dad, hey, I'm depressed, I'm sad, uh you know. 00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:41.760 It's just not something that you do um as a teenager, first of all, and as a man, you don't, you know, it's just you gotta be cheese mo and be strong and you know, and I still feel like I need to be strong for my family, and even though I know that that's bogus. 00:59:42.400 --> 01:00:02.880 But it is, it's just kind of the way I think the I think it's just the way we were raised in the seventies, you know, and probably the sixties and fifties and forties and eighties and you know, probably wasn't until the probably mid-90s and two thousands that sensitivity became okay. 01:00:03.119 --> 01:00:07.360 It became okay to be cry to cry or to be sad and all of that. 01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:09.360 Otherwise you weren't being a man. 01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:13.599 What is the definition of strong to you? 01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:24.159 I think the definition of strong is being able to have emotions, express the emotions, however you do it. 01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:26.320 It may be crying, it may not be crying. 01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:28.079 I express my emotions. 01:00:28.239 --> 01:00:29.280 I just don't cry. 01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:31.840 It's not the way most people do. 01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:48.000 Um, but expressing those emotions, talking about the emotions, and continuing on with your daily life and taking care of what you've got to take care of, even when you have those emotions. 01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:51.280 And when I say emotions, I don't mean sad always. 01:00:51.599 --> 01:01:00.079 It could be happy, it could be excitement, it could be any of that stuff, because sometimes when people are happy, they're like, through work, I'm not going to work today. 01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:01.679 I I'm too happy for that. 01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:04.000 Well, you know, that's just not reasonable. 01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:08.079 You can be happy and go to work or sad and go to work. 01:01:08.239 --> 01:01:12.559 And maybe sometimes it's best not to go to work when you're having those emotions. 01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:14.320 I understand that as well. 01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:14.960 Yeah. 01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:24.400 And that is also a point of being strong, of being saying, being able to say, look, right now, my emotions are off the chart. 01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:29.840 I just lost my mom and dad and brother and sister all in one car crash. 01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:31.440 So you know what? 01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:34.880 It's not good for me to come in and be a doctor today. 01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:47.280 You know, it it's it's a even being an attorney, it's not always good to go in with strong emotions, personal emotions, because it's going to distract you. 01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:52.400 We were talking about the severe case that I had earlier, the sex case. 01:01:52.639 --> 01:02:08.880 Well, when I first started practicing, I went up, put my name on the court appointment list so that I could get some clients, and I uh get a sex assault case, a child's sex assault case appointed to me. 01:02:09.679 --> 01:02:12.159 And uh, you know, I didn't think anything of it. 01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:24.639 I'd been through law school, I knew what these cases were, and um I knew that they deserved advocacy, they deserved somebody that would work for them zealously. 01:02:24.800 --> 01:02:29.519 So I get the police report, sit down, start reading through it. 01:02:29.679 --> 01:02:36.880 I get about halfway through it, and I realize I have no idea what I just read because I was thinking about my kids. 01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:49.599 I was thinking about, you know, well, they're doing this right now, they're at, you know, daycare at school or whatever, and tonight we're gonna go and do this and be a good, happy family. 01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:53.519 And, you know, so I go back and start reading again. 01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:57.199 And then get about halfway through, I'm like, oh crap, what the hell? 01:02:57.440 --> 01:03:01.199 I read it, and I'm thinking to myself, at that point, what did I read? 01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:20.400 Because now I'm thinking,

you know what, if this was my kid, there wouldn't be a trial, he'd be dead, you know, and so at that point I realized after trying for several hours to read through the offense report without getting anything out of it, because I kept thinking about my kids. 01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:24.719 And so I went up and I said, Look, I can't do these cases. 01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:36.000 It's not beneficial to the client for me to handle it because I can't concentrate enough to come up with a defense and advocate for and zealously. 01:03:36.239 --> 01:03:37.119 It's not good. 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:39.360 I'm just curious, like what changed for you? 01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:46.960 Because that was the beginning of your career, and then you just were a defense for a man who got his granddaughter, his minor granddaughter, pregnant. 01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:50.320 Well, nothing really changed totally. 01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:53.920 So, one of the things, first of all, is years of experience. 01:03:54.159 --> 01:03:59.039 I didn't start taking any of those types of cases until probably 10 years ago. 01:03:59.119 --> 01:04:01.920 So I'd been practicing for you know 12 or 13 years. 01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:03.920 I got a call from one of our local judges. 01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:13.119 He just said, Look, Brett, right now we don't have anybody that's qualified to handle this case, and you're the only one that's really qualified to do it. 01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:15.039 Would you take this one case? 01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:18.800 I said, Well, because you called me, I'll take this one, but that's it. 01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:24.079 I don't want to become the local attorney handling these types of cases. 01:04:24.320 --> 01:04:25.280 The pedo defender. 01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:26.639 Yes, exactly. 01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:35.199 And so I did handle that one, and then I got another one, and I just did it, and then I got a couple more. 01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:38.320 Then I've told them since then I I don't want these cases. 01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:47.760 Remember, I I did it as a favor, and then I think when I did that as a favor, they not necessarily just put my name on that list. 01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:54.000 I think it was just, oh, well, Brett's up on the will, and this just happens to be that case, and so I would get it. 01:04:54.320 --> 01:04:55.920 Do you get to deny cases? 01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:57.519 Like do you get to say, I don't want this one? 01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:17.599 You can tell them that you object to it morally or whatever, and you can Because I can imagine if you're an attorney and you put your name in the bucket to be, you know, on the list for on the rotation for public defender stuff, and you get a lot of that kind of a thing, right? 01:05:17.920 --> 01:05:24.320 But I know that there's gotta be attorneys out there that were victims themselves and they're gonna have a bias. 01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:34.800 And how are you, as somebody who was traumatized by somebody who did the same crime to you when you were a child, going to go defend somebody that did this potentially to a child? 01:05:35.119 --> 01:05:35.679 Right. 01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:41.280 It's you do have the right to object to it, to representing somebody on moral basis. 01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:43.920 Do you get in trouble for saying no, I don't want this one? 01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:45.679 No, you you don't get in trouble. 01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:50.880 I mean, it's just you call and tell the court coordinator, hey, I just got appointed to this case. 01:05:51.039 --> 01:05:52.400 I can't do these cases. 01:05:52.480 --> 01:05:54.800 We need to get somebody else on it. 01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:57.360 And I've never had a problem with it. 01:05:57.440 --> 01:05:58.960 They'll say, okay, we'll get somebody else. 01:05:59.119 --> 01:06:01.599 I don't like Child abuse cases, period. 01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:08.559 I mean, I I used to do some CPS work, but just kind of got to me. 01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:12.159 Uh I didn't like the way CPS operated, first of all. 01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:12.880 Amen. 01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:23.760 And um it's very difficult sometimes representing parents that do things like that to their children. 01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:28.079 I mean, and whenever I say things like that, I don't necessarily mean sexual things. 01:06:28.400 --> 01:06:30.239 Sure, no, just abuse in general or neglect. 01:06:31.760 --> 01:06:31.920 Right. 01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:34.559 I mean these are vulnerable little kids. 01:06:34.880 --> 01:06:50.960 Neglect to me is almost it's not necessarily worse, but it's it almost is because not even caring enough to look at your child basically is what you're doing, and you're not bathing them, you're not feeding them or whatever, or leaving them in the house while you go party. 01:06:51.440 --> 01:06:58.639 When these people are accused of neglect, they're basically leaving these children defend for themselves, right? 01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:00.079 And they're not paying attention to them. 01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:02.239 The children are going unnoticed, right? 01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:02.559 Right. 01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:04.079 When they're alone. 01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:06.719 Attention, unnoticed. 01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:08.800 Alone, I wonder if that has something to do with it. 01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:09.519 It could. 01:07:09.679 --> 01:07:10.719 It very well could. 01:07:11.119 --> 01:07:15.599 I think uh whenever you're talking about psychology, all roads lead somewhere. 01:07:15.840 --> 01:07:16.960 Oh, they definitely do. 01:07:17.199 --> 01:07:19.119 It's uh we're all very, very patterned. 01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:20.079 Oh, yeah. 01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:26.159 And it's it's and everybody's like, oh well, no, I had a great childhood, and I did. 01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:32.320 Um, my parents weren't abusive, they weren't neglectful, they didn't do anything like that to me. 01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:41.679 But the way

people perceive things and the way you process them as you grow, that's going to affect you. 01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:44.159 Yeah, it's all about the interpretation of the event. 01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:44.719 Yeah. 01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:46.880 I can't I can give you a great example. 01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:51.679 I remember when I was very young, probably six years old-ish, my aunt was dating a house angel. 01:07:51.760 --> 01:07:52.559 His name was Sam. 01:07:53.119 --> 01:07:55.280 And we went to go visit my aunt and Sam. 01:07:55.440 --> 01:08:02.079 And he had this big room where he had like a pool table or whatever, and him and my dad are in there, and he didn't want any kids in there. 01:08:02.239 --> 01:08:03.199 And I wanted my dad. 01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:04.159 I was a daddy's girl. 01:08:04.239 --> 01:08:08.480 So I'm like going into this room, clinging on my dad's leg, hiding underneath the pool table. 01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:09.119 I don't want to leave. 01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:09.679 That's my dad. 01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:10.880 I want to be with my dad, right? 01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:12.639 My mom and my aunt were doing something worried. 01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:13.039 Okay. 01:08:13.519 --> 01:08:15.920 So I just remember this guy yelling at me, trying to get me to get out of there. 01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:21.840 My dad was like nervous, like nervous, laughing, like, you know, that this is haha his buddy, and he's also a Hell's Angel, kind of scary guy. 01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:23.520 So don't really want to piss him off, right? 01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:25.680 Well, the guy goes and he gets a horse whip. 01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:30.880 And he comes out with a horse whip and he just starts whipping it just for the noise to try to scare me to get out of there. 01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:37.119 And I just remember looking up at my dad and being like, I can't believe you're choosing this man over me. 01:08:37.520 --> 01:08:37.920 Right. 01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:40.960 Another kid could have been like, I'm in danger. 01:08:41.119 --> 01:08:42.159 I am unsafe. 01:08:42.399 --> 01:08:46.960 My thing was is my dad just chose this jerk over me. 01:08:47.199 --> 01:08:47.359 Right. 01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:47.920 Right? 01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:50.079 So the interpretation is really what matters. 01:08:50.560 --> 01:08:54.000 And that it goes so much into parenting and how we parent our children. 01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:57.119 And this actually ties back to the law. 01:08:58.159 --> 01:09:01.920 How important is impact versus intent? 01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:14.079 Well, um when you're looking at the law, criminal law, there is no impact aspect of the statutes. 01:09:14.239 --> 01:09:15.600 There is intent. 01:09:15.840 --> 01:09:19.039 There is what's called mens rea or guilty mind. 01:09:19.439 --> 01:09:22.560 You have to have some level of mens rea. 01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:25.920 In most crimes, you have to have some sort of mens rea. 01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:38.479

In other words, you have to have an intent to do it, or a recklessness to do it, in other words, accidentally do it, a reckless disregard for the safety of somebody, something to that effect. 01:09:38.640 --> 01:09:48.239 Now there are statutes out there that there does not have to be uh a mens rea, things such as indecency with a child. 01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:48.720 Okay. 01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:51.840 There is no mens rea aspect to it. 01:09:51.920 --> 01:09:54.720 If you do it, you're guilty, even if you didn't intend to do it. 01:09:54.960 --> 01:09:57.520 I'll give you an example of one of my cases. 01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:02.800 Years ago, and I still lament over this case. 01:10:03.119 --> 01:10:15.359 Um the guy was 24, 25 years old at the time, and he went to an 18 and over club. 01:10:15.840 --> 01:10:16.159 Okay. 01:10:16.720 --> 01:10:19.439 You had to be at least 18 to be in there. 01:10:20.079 --> 01:10:25.039 And you got, if you're between 18 and 21, you got a certain stamp on your hand. 01:10:25.119 --> 01:10:27.520 If you're 21 and over, you got a different stamp. 01:10:27.840 --> 01:10:30.640 Tells the bartenders whether or not you can have alcohol. 01:10:31.119 --> 01:10:42.239 So he's out, and it's probably about one o'clock in the morning at this club dancing, and girl comes up to him wanting to dance with him. 01:10:42.479 --> 01:10:47.680 He's like, okay, yeah, well, first of all, it's an 18 and over club, you gotta be 18 to be in there, no big deal, right? 01:10:47.840 --> 01:10:49.680 Don't think another thought of it. 01:10:50.399 --> 01:10:59.600 She did have an un 18 stamp, 18 to 21 stamp, and you know, they're dancing and they start talking, and you know, how old are you? 01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:00.560 Well, I'm 19. 01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:01.119 Oh, okay. 01:11:01.199 --> 01:11:03.840 Well, I'm 23, 24, whatever he was. 01:11:04.399 --> 01:11:18.079 And so they two o'clock comes, the club closes, they go to another party afterwards, and then they end up back at um this guy's apartment where there was another party going on. 01:11:18.640 --> 01:11:31.920 Or no, no, it wasn't this guy's apartment, it was his friend's, because they went into the friend's bedroom, him and this girl, and they're talking and kissing, making out and whatnot. 01:11:32.079 --> 01:11:42.239 And um he kind of reaches up and grabs her breast, and uh she seems a little nervous about that, and he takes his hand away and he says, Are you okay? 01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:43.199 What's wrong? 01:11:43.359 --> 01:11:46.960 And she says, Well, I'm actually only 14. 01:11:47.119 --> 01:11:49.119 Oh, he says, What? 01:11:49.359 --> 01:11:51.359 And she says, I'm only 14. 01:11:51.520 --> 01:11:53.199 He says, I'm sorry, I'm I'm out. 01:11:53.439 --> 01:11:55.600 She says, No, don't leave, don't leave. 01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:58.000 And uh he says, I'm not doing this. 01:11:58.079 --> 01:12:27.680 And he gets up and leaves, and he goes back into the living room, she gets mad and she leaves the apartment, goes to another friend of her house, hers, a girl, who puts a hickey on her neck, and the reason for that is, or at least that's this is what she told the officers, is that she she was living with her grandparents and didn't want to get in trouble, so she was went and had the hickey put on by the friend saying to say that she was raped. 01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:31.359 And um that all actually came out because she did. 01:12:31.439 --> 01:12:35.199 She went on and said I was raped, and they went in, did all of this stuff. 01:12:35.439 --> 01:12:38.560 Forensic said no, she was not ever touched. 01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:41.199 And uh she said, Well, by who? 01:12:41.279 --> 01:12:49.119 And said, Well, it was this guy, and you know, where he lived and all of that, because if where he lived, she knew. 01:12:49.359 --> 01:12:56.159 They went up, knocked on his door, he came to the door, the officers, and uh he, by the way, did have a history. 01:12:56.319 --> 01:12:59.920 I mean, he wasn't he'd been in trouble with the law in the past. 01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:01.279 But was it any sexual assault? 01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:03.439 No, no, nothing like that. 01:13:04.159 --> 01:13:08.159 And um, it was drugs, to be honest with you. 01:13:08.399 --> 01:13:13.439 So anyway, he invites the officers in because he wasn't into that anymore. 01:13:13.680 --> 01:13:20.000 Um, didn't didn't think he'd done anything wrong, and so the officer said, Well, did you meet so-and-so? 01:13:20.159 --> 01:13:26.720 And said, Yeah, I met her, you know, a couple nights ago at the club, and um so okay, well, what happened? 01:13:26.880 --> 01:13:31.199 And said, Well, you know, tells the story I just told you. 01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:33.439 And said, Is there any witnesses? 01:13:33.600 --> 01:13:38.000 Well, there's there was a party going on here, they'll all tell you that what happened. 01:13:38.079 --> 01:13:51.520 And when she left, I mean, they went in the room with us, but you know, and so anyway, they get through the investigation and finally she admits what happened, which is exactly what I just said. 01:13:52.079 --> 01:13:59.359 Well, so they changed the charge and they they indicted him for indecency with a child because he touched her breasts. 01:13:59.680 --> 01:14:00.880 But he didn't know how old she was. 01:14:01.119 --> 01:14:02.319 He didn't know how old she was. 01:14:02.479 --> 01:14:11.359 But the law doesn't differ differentiate that, it does not state that he intentionally and knowingly touched the breast of a child. 01:14:11.600 --> 01:14:14.079 It just says that he touched the breast of a child. 01:14:14.479 --> 01:14:20.000 She could have a DNA test, a driver's license, and a birth certificate saying that she was over 18. 01:14:20.159 --> 01:14:20.960 It doesn't matter. 01:14:21.039 --> 01:14:22.319 If he did it, he did it. 01:14:22.640 --> 01:14:23.680 But hold on a second. 01:14:23.840 --> 01:14:24.479 That's not

right. 01:14:24.640 --> 01:14:25.760 I'm not saying it's right. 01:14:25.840 --> 01:14:32.399 It's well, but it's like, okay, so intent only matters as long as it's not a child sexual assault case. 01:14:32.479 --> 01:14:33.920 Then intent doesn't matter at all. 01:14:34.239 --> 01:14:36.319 Not necessarily child sexual assault. 01:14:36.479 --> 01:14:38.079 But it's like speeding. 01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:44.800 If you're speeding and you get pulled over and you were doing 75 and a 55, would you expect a ticket? 01:14:45.039 --> 01:14:45.439 Yes. 01:14:45.680 --> 01:14:46.000 Okay. 01:14:46.479 --> 01:15:06.000 And let's say you were doing that 75 miles an hour because you just got word that Colton broke his arm at work and you were going to the ER to catch up with him, uh or to to pick him up or you know, make sure he was okay, and you weren't even thinking about how fast you were going. 01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:08.239 Do you think you should get a ticket? 01:15:08.560 --> 01:15:10.720 I mean, yes, I still broke the law. 01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:12.399 But did you intend to do it? 01:15:12.479 --> 01:15:15.680 If you were not doing it intentionally, you weren't thinking about how fast you were going. 01:15:15.920 --> 01:15:19.680 If I wasn't thinking about how fast I was going, I was still going 40 over. 01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:20.000 Right. 01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:21.520 So, yes, absolutely. 01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:22.720 I still deserve the ticket. 01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:23.920 It doesn't matter why. 01:15:24.560 --> 01:15:27.600 Same, same concept with indecency. 01:15:28.239 --> 01:15:38.239 But I think it should be like that across the board because in all reality, this is the problem when it comes to so many things, is that we always examine the intention. 01:15:38.399 --> 01:15:39.279 We give the excuse. 01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:42.960 Oh, I didn't mean to, oh, I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings. 01:15:43.359 --> 01:15:45.039 Okay, but what about the impact? 01:15:45.439 --> 01:15:48.399 What what about how this impacted the situation? 01:15:48.560 --> 01:15:53.279 Like, what if I was speeding to go to Colton because I found out that something horrific happened? 01:15:53.359 --> 01:15:55.119 He had a heart attack, broke his arm, whatever. 01:15:55.359 --> 01:15:56.640 And I am speeding to go there. 01:15:56.720 --> 01:16:00.159 And on my way speeding to go there, I hit somebody. 01:16:00.479 --> 01:16:03.199 Then it's like my intention wasn't bad. 01:16:03.359 --> 01:16:06.720 I was trying to help my husband, but my impact still matters. 01:16:07.039 --> 01:16:09.760 There's mensrea in that that's reckless mensrea. 01:16:10.079 --> 01:16:10.720 And how is that? 01:16:10.960 --> 01:16:20.239 That reckless mensrea is because you were driving in a manner that was reckless, it was without regard of the safety of the rest of the people around you. 01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:23.439 So I I want you to take that mensrea right there. 01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:32.560 And I want you as a dad of six and a grandfather of nine, I want you to implement how does mensrea cross over into parenting? 01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:38.560 Where does impact begin and intent still live in the equation of parenting? 01:16:38.960 --> 01:16:42.079 Take my BB incident when I broke the window across the street. 01:16:42.239 --> 01:16:47.920 I'm out there and I'm shooting at a target that we had set up. 01:16:48.239 --> 01:16:55.439 And it was just negligently, recklessly, or whatever set up with the window behind it. 01:16:55.680 --> 01:16:58.239 And I missed the target but hit the window. 01:16:58.399 --> 01:16:59.920 I didn't intend to hit the window. 01:17:00.159 --> 01:17:02.640 Yeah, you weren't purposely shooting to break the window. 01:17:02.960 --> 01:17:05.760 But I did intend to shoot the gun. 01:17:05.920 --> 01:17:10.880 This is transferred intent, um, where I intended to shoot the gun. 01:17:11.119 --> 01:17:16.640 I intended a specific result, that specific result being the BB hit a target. 01:17:16.960 --> 01:17:23.359 It just transferred to the window because that's where the BB went. 01:17:23.600 --> 01:17:33.920 So I still am at fault, but maybe mitigate it a little bit because I didn't intentionally shoot that window to break it. 01:17:34.079 --> 01:17:36.960 I wasn't intending to do anybody any harm. 01:17:37.199 --> 01:17:40.640 So maybe I should pay for it and be off the hook, other than that. 01:17:40.800 --> 01:17:45.119 But then again, you can't be totally off the hook even when you don't intend to do something. 01:17:45.199 --> 01:17:46.720 Otherwise, you don't learn a lesson. 01:17:47.039 --> 01:17:53.279 Let's pretend that I do something that hurts my child. 01:17:53.439 --> 01:17:58.000 I did not intend for that to hurt my child, but it still hurt my child. 01:17:58.239 --> 01:18:02.880 Does me not intending to hurt my child negate the fact that she was hurt? 01:18:03.199 --> 01:18:09.520 No, because that's probably gonna be a reckless endangerment or reckless injury. 01:18:09.760 --> 01:18:10.720 You hear that, parents? 01:18:11.039 --> 01:18:11.760 Everybody listening? 01:18:11.920 --> 01:18:13.600 It's reckless, reckless parenting. 01:18:13.840 --> 01:18:14.239 That's right. 01:18:14.399 --> 01:18:20.640 You could be doing something and become reckless and still be criminal and you could still be charged. 01:18:20.880 --> 01:18:32.000 I think what's really sad too is people will put so much more effort into researching something they're gonna buy on Amazon and reading all of the reviews and looking at the specs and like all this stuff. 01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:39.920 They will they will look so hard into things like that, and then they don't do the same when it comes to parenting, child development, any of that. 01:18:40.079 --> 01:18:40.399 Right. 01:18:40.640 --> 01:18:45.600 Like how many parents have actually studied child development, how the brain develops, what do they actually need?

01:18:45.760 --> 01:18:48.000 How many of them even know what is emotional safety? 01:18:48.159 --> 01:18:50.000 Do parents even know what that means? 01:18:50.479 --> 01:18:50.720 Right. 01:18:50.960 --> 01:19:12.880 And part of the problem with that is I think it's for the lack of a better term, grandparents' advice or or parents' advice, you know, a young parent, mother or father, you know, they're well, you know, it's our first child, and I'm just scared, I won't know what to do. 01:19:13.119 --> 01:19:16.079 And what is the response usually? 01:19:16.239 --> 01:19:18.319 It's well, it's okay, baby. 01:19:18.399 --> 01:19:26.479 You know, you'll grow, you'll learn as you go, and your natural parental instincts will tell you what to do. 01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:35.920 Well, some people, first of all, don't have those instincts, and um, second of all, sometimes those instincts are just absolutely wrong. 01:19:36.079 --> 01:19:40.960 Before a lot of technology, instincts are what kept people alive. 01:19:41.199 --> 01:19:49.840 Nowadays, with technology, you can't let instincts tell you that a baby's gonna be safe sitting in a 130-degree car. 01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:50.319 Right. 01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:55.439 Because you don't know that that's possible or that that's what's gonna happen. 01:19:55.600 --> 01:19:55.920 Right. 01:19:56.079 --> 01:20:01.840 You've got to learn what a car does when it's sitting in the heat without the air conditioning on. 01:20:01.920 --> 01:20:02.159 Right. 01:20:02.399 --> 01:20:03.439 It becomes an oven. 01:20:04.399 --> 01:20:10.079 And um, if you do know that, then you know you're not probably not gonna leave your kid in the car. 01:20:10.239 --> 01:20:19.039 I watch a lot of YouTube videos of this type of stuff, and it's horrific how often mom leaves a baby in the car and runs in to buy diapers, even. 01:20:19.119 --> 01:20:26.960 You know, it doesn't have to be something like liquor or cigarettes, and you know, she's just going in and grab diapers real quick, leaves the car on, goes in. 01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:30.399 What happens when the local thug sees the car sitting there running? 01:20:30.560 --> 01:20:32.000 They got it jump in it and go. 01:20:32.079 --> 01:20:32.239 Yeah. 01:20:32.399 --> 01:20:34.239 Not realizing there's a baby in the back. 01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:34.720 Right. 01:20:34.880 --> 01:20:38.000 You know, you you read those stories all the time, too. 01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:49.520 And of course, you know, I think back to when I was a kid, it was normal for us to run to the grocery store, me and my brother, be five or six years old, maybe younger, I don't know. 01:20:49.760 --> 01:20:53.520 And mom would run in and do some grocery shopping while we sat in the car and played. 01:20:53.680 --> 01:20:53.920 Right. 01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:55.680 You know, that was normal back then. 01:20:55.840 --> 01:20:56.159 Right. 01:20:56.399 --> 01:20:58.800 But nowadays we know the dangers. 01:20:59.039 --> 01:21:01.199 We know what could happen. 01:21:01.520 --> 01:21:05.199 And you just can't do that anymore. 01:21:05.359 --> 01:21:09.840 I would never do that because I pick up my grandkids a lot from school. 01:21:10.000 --> 01:21:15.600 I don't ever walk away from my truck until they're all out and my door is shut, all of their school work, everything's out. 01:21:15.680 --> 01:21:16.560 I made sure of that. 01:21:16.720 --> 01:21:18.159 I just could not imagine. 01:21:18.399 --> 01:21:19.600 What do you why? 01:21:19.680 --> 01:21:23.680 I mean, I just take the baby in and let her sleep with you right there. 01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:25.600 I'd rather my baby sit on me. 01:21:25.680 --> 01:21:27.920 You know, I texted my daughter in law last night. 01:21:28.079 --> 01:21:32.640 I said, I cannot believe you would deprive me of a picture of my baby princess today. 01:21:32.720 --> 01:21:32.960 Yeah. 01:21:33.279 --> 01:21:39.119 If I didn't get a picture early yesterday, and so of course got flooded with some pictures at that point. 01:21:39.199 --> 01:21:43.199 But you know, I I just can imagine leaving a baby. 01:21:43.520 --> 01:21:45.600 They're just such a precious thing. 01:21:45.920 --> 01:21:54.319 So if you had one piece of advice to give anybody that's watching this of what you've learned in 23 years as a practicing attorney, what would you give? 01:21:55.840 --> 01:22:00.880 When you meet an attorney and you need an attorney, always be honest with them. 01:22:01.039 --> 01:22:05.119 Tell them the whole truth, tell them the whole story to the best of your ability. 01:22:05.279 --> 01:22:10.720 Don't try to hide it because if they don't know what's going on, they can't help you. 01:22:10.880 --> 01:22:13.600 Um they can, but it's not going to be as effective. 01:22:13.840 --> 01:22:15.439 They have confidentiality. 01:22:15.600 --> 01:22:18.079 Attorneys, me, all attorneys do. 01:22:18.319 --> 01:22:25.760 And we can't run and tell what your past crimes were, whether or not you're innocent or guilty of the one that we're defending you on. 01:22:26.000 --> 01:22:37.760 The only time that we can break that is if it is in furtherance of a crime, or we see that somebody else is in danger, then we can, then we're actually obligated to do so at that time. 01:22:37.920 --> 01:22:46.159 We have to call the police and say, hey, my guy just said he's gonna go kill so-and-so, or gonna go beat so-and-so up, or whatever, you know. 01:22:46.560 --> 01:22:55.039 And other than that, it's you know, they've got to be honest so that we know how to handle their case the best we can. 01:22:55.359 --> 01:22:57.920 Does that transfer over to your parenting? 01:22:58.239 --> 01:22:59.039 I hope so. 01:22:59.199 --> 01:23:01.279 I mean, I really want my kids to be honest. 01:23:01.439 --> 01:23:05.279 So be honest with your kids so they understand what honesty is. 01:23:05.520 --> 01:23:07.520 Reward them for honesty. 01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:24.800 Even if that reward is a lighter punishment, when they've done something wrong and they're honest with you about doing it, maybe don't ground them for a full two weeks, maybe just one week, or whatever your particular punishment is. 01:23:24.960 --> 01:23:27.920 Maybe give them some sort of a reprieve for that honesty. 01:23:28.159 --> 01:23:28.960 Make it safe. 01:23:29.840 --> 01:23:31.520 Make the honesty worth it. 01:23:31.680 --> 01:23:36.319 Because if if you don't change the punishment, they're gonna lie to the end. 01:23:36.800 --> 01:23:39.760 It's not gonna change punishment, so why not? 01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:41.520 Why admit it? 01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:42.399 That's right. 01:23:42.560 --> 01:23:44.880 So well, thank you so much for coming on. 01:23:44.960 --> 01:23:46.880 It's been so much fun talking to you about all this. 01:23:47.520 --> 01:23:48.479 I really enjoyed this. 01:23:48.720 --> 01:23:52.479 Yes, thanks so much, and we will catch you guys next time.