Episode 182: EMDR and the Future of Healing (featuring Paul Schulte)의 전체 녹취록

just been uh really uh destroyed by alcoholism. 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:30.480 Unfortunately, both my parents were in the military, and my father had terrible, untreated, undiagnosed PTSD that was devastating for the family unit. 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.680 So a lot of this work is near and dear to my heart. 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:54.240 And I recently was in Ukraine um training uh 50 army psychologists in the Ukrainian army to help them get their handle uh on the you know PTSD problem that is uh you know going to ramp up uh with their 1.1 million man army. 00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:03.439 And and of course, it's also for the you know 5 million out uh refugees outside Ukraine, three and a half million inside Ukraine. 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:13.839 So I've been working with them closely, um getting uh up to speed and doing several you know multi-hour seminars with hundreds of psychologists recently. 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.639 So that's been a real big passion of mine. 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:17.519 Amazing. 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.160 And you were in finance before coming up. 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:23.120 Yeah, I had a career in finance and I hated it. 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:34.560 And 23 years ago, I just said phoey and I quit and I went to UCLA and I got uh trained up in counseling and psychology and drug addiction treatment. 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:48.959 And then I discovered uh EMDR like uh eight and a half years ago uh when I was living in Singapore, and I did a lot of it on myself with a with a therapist, and it it blew me away how effective it was. 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:51.040 And so it really piqued my interest. 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:59.360 And since then, I have been qualified in four different uh entities and I've written a book on EMDR, it's an audio book. 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:09.920 Uh, and I've been uh I've worked with hundreds of uh clients on um in doing EMDR with them on everything under the sun. 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:29.839 Um uh sexual assault, sexual abuse, incest, uh, PTSD, um escaping the narcissist, uh burnout, uh drug addiction, and uh many other issues, suicide of a family member, death of a family member, uh murder of a family member. 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:42.079 And so it is something that I have found to be uh you know in my heart and in my mind, I will tell you this beyond the shadow of a doubt. 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:54.879 I have never seen anything more effective in treating uh uh depression, anxiety, uh chronic sadness, uh incapacity to deal with death of a loved one. 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:58.879 I have never seen anything better than EMDR. 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:11.759 So for someone who has no idea what that is or what we're referencing when they just hear us say EMDR, can you talk a little bit about what it is and just maybe some of the main highlights about what EMDR does? 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.639 Can you just give a little bit of like a simple kind of like high overview for people who are like, what are they referring to? 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:18.560 Yeah, sure, exactly, exactly. 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:19.279 It's very simple. 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:24.319 It's eye movement, uh desensitization, and reprocessing. 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:29.839 And what it is basically is just in a nutshell, uh, you know, sort of standing on one foot. 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.919 Uh my left-handedness goes to my right side of my brain. 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:43.360 And this part of the brain, you know, is largely in general responsible for story and narrative, imagination, pictures, right? 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:45.919 Creating pictures of reality. 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:53.759 And then my my right sidedness, you know, my left side of my brain is time, space, uh, people, place, thing. 00:08:53.919 --> 00:09:00.080 And what EMDR does when you go back and forth with your uh hand, and the hand movement is the most effective. 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:10.240 You can have electronic uh pulses on your hands or electronic uh noises in your ear, alternate, alternating noises, hand movement is the most effective. 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:28.320 You you get the right brain and left brain talking to each other, and what happens is you pull out ancient, unprocessed trauma that is basically memories and emotions that occurred during the time of the trauma. 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:36.559 When we are in a traumatic situation, sexual assault, sexual abuse, you know, a battle, uh, physical abuse, whatever. 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:38.799 We are in fight or flight mode. 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:41.360 We know that as humans, we know what that means. 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:49.200 And when we're in fight or flight mode, our frontal blank, uh, our front part of our brain, our pre-frontal cortex, is shut down. 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:50.320 It's offline. 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:57.200 And so these emotions and memories are stored in their primitive form during the time of the trauma. 00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:03.840 And that's why when we try to call these things up, we we get panicky because our front brain can't process it. 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:08.080 These are pure emotions, and the timing is off, right? 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:13.600 And the sense of smell and taste and feeling and hearing are scrambled. 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:28.480 And EMDR puts these things together in a coherent state to allow you to desensitize yourself, to get some distance from the initial trauma, because we have to let that trauma come forward. 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:40.240 And EMDR does it in a very quick and uh calm way, and usually you require nothing more than maybe four to six hours of therapy. 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:59.840 I believe talk therapy doesn't work because talk therapy is trying to access our logical part of our brain for a purely emotional, almost reptilian uh memorization of a traumatic event in the base of our brain in the amygdala, which they call our lizard brain. 00:11:00.000 -->

00:11:07.679 And those two do not talk to each other, and that's why EMDR has come along and it has it does astonishing things. 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:17.120 It is the number one recommended treatment for PTSD, according to so many of the um psychological and psychiatric associations. 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:22.320 It's the number one uh recommended treatment for PTSD for the military. 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:27.200 That is what is going on only in the last, I would say, 10 years. 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.799 And you mentioned learning a lot about it overseas. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:45.519 I'm curious, did is there anything you've noticed in how other countries or where you learned about it and where you experienced it is different than how in the US we talk about it or treat it or use it? 00:11:45.679 --> 00:12:02.399 Is there any disconnect or is there anything that stands out into experiencing this in overseas versus what we may see here in the US with like the use of EMDR or how we talk about it or how often it's being used? 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:04.480 Anything you can throw out there? 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:06.559 Uh great question. 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:18.480 Uh I was thinking about this yesterday because I was working with a woman um from uh Russia yesterday, and uh she's also uh part uh from a country in Africa. 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:34.879 And so I have done this in uh Russian, Ukrainian, Spanish, uh, Portuguese, uh, and English, and I've done it with people on four continents, and I can tell you that we are all exactly the same. 00:12:35.120 --> 00:13:05.679 And when we come to certain points in the EMDR, it's astounding how the words that people use, and I ask them to tell me my Spanish is good, my Portuguese is good, my uh, you know, we we worked, uh I have a automatic translator for Ukrainian that I used, and I'm astounded by the not just similar, nearly identical words when people are going through these important uh uh segues into healing. 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:10.799 The words are identical so far in six languages. 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:12.000 Astounding. 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:14.240 That's amazing. 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:25.200 Because I'm curious with part of it, is I watched another interview you did where the claim the thing that you said was um EMDR over talk therapy in the next five years. 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:27.759 That is one thing that you you mentioned. 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:35.600 And one of the things that I'm curious about is when EMDR came about more, and people were like talking about it more. 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.440 There was I was seeing there's more trainings about it, there are more people doing it. 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:47.120 I still haven't seen a lot of people saying this is something they're gonna go learn to do, or this is what they're gonna provide. 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:53.039 Sometimes I see places have like 20 clinicians, maybe there's one who does EMDR. 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:53.919

Exactly. 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:55.679 Yeah, so that's where I'm crazy. 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:58.720 That's where I'm wondering where that where is that disconnect. 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:00.000 I know, I know. 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:00.639 Uh yeah. 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.159 Yeah, so I'll give an example. 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:11.759 My nephew, um, he's a great guy, and he was in the Marines for nine years, and then he was a uh a homicide detective, great guy. 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:23.679 He was dealing with some PTSD, and he went to a uh three-month program in Southern California, and there was one EMDR specialist there, and the rest were top therapists. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:29.120 And he was talking about some very to be frank, he's a homicide detective. 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:33.120 He was talking about very brutal, awful things humans do to each other. 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.200 This is what homicide officers do, they investigate murder. 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:43.279 And he was describing some stuff, and the therapist basically said, Oh, I have to give up and excuse myself on being triggered. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.799 And you know, that's just not on. 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.360 That is not what we need to be doing here. 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:53.279 Same thing with an SAS, which is British Special Forces guy I did EMDR with last week. 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:55.360 Same thing happened to him with this therapist. 00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:58.559 She was triggered and said, People shouldn't do those things to each other. 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:00.399 And it was like, Well, they do. 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:08.879 And you know, uh, why are we sitting here having to, you know, treat, you know, I'm being treated here, not you. 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:18.639 And so he told me the most effective thing that he did in that three months of uh of helping him with his PTSD was EMDR. 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:19.200 Right? 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:20.799 So I'm just gonna say that. 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:28.159 Uh every major significant drug addiction treatment center is gonna have an EMDR specialist now. 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:30.559 Um so it's just starting to catch on. 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:34.000 But of course, talk therapists hate this because they're they're threatened. 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:49.600 And so the talk therapy, you know, whatever uh, you know, masters in social work, clinical psychologists, they're they're very uh they're very threatened by the the extraordinary growth of this in a very short period of time. 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:50.960 That's what's going on here. 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:55.759 What what has gotten the growth recently to really accelerate? 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:59.039 Is it the the research is catching up? 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:03.200 Is it the effects we're seeing is now showing? 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:14.879 Like, what is it that's kind of gotten it to sort of according to what you're what you're looking at is potentially outpace and you know it's gonna be in every program and it's gonna be more popular. 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:21.679 Like, what is behind the acceleration of interest or seeing the benefit of what EMDR does? 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:22.720 Anything they can share online. 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:24.879 Yeah, I think I think I think you're right. 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.440 I think everything you said is is is right on the money. 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.360 I think that there's been a great deal of research. 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:48.320 There's been peer-reviewed studies, there's been meta-studies, and you know, uh very professional, well-respected journals of the psychiatric and the psychological community, um, and even the the the the um NIH uh has done a lot of work on on uh EMDR. 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:50.159 But I'll tell you what it is. 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:58.240 There's been three or four big movie stars who come who came out and said, I did EMDR, and it was so helpful, I can't believe it. 00:16:58.720 --> 00:16:59.919 That is what is going on. 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:12.720 I forget who it was, but she was she was um, you know, every time you go on Instagram, she comes up, oh, I did EMDR and it really saved my life and it was amazing, and my God, I I, you know, and so forth and so on. 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:18.960 What happens with me, with probably half of the clients I've dealt with of the hundreds I've worked with, they will say, What was I doing? 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:20.000 What was I doing? 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:32.720 Having six years of of therapy, I just solved this big problem I was dealing with in six years of therapy in 10 hours, you know, and that is exactly my experience at least half the time. 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:42.000 Uh and so uh I think the celebrities, you know, they always say that um, you know, politics and science is is downstream of culture. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:55.200 And I think the the the culture of celebrity woke up everybody to say, wait a minute here, if these people are saying that it worked, uh, you know, and and they get a million views, right? 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:58.799 Because and it was a it was a it was a female movie star. 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.279 We've seen that though throughout history, haven't we? 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:12.799 We've seen where it's like all of a sudden a celebrity talks about going to like meetings, and then all of a sudden it like seems like that, like over history, there's been some celebrities coming out about like substance use or mental health, exactly, exactly. 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:39.279 And then all of a sudden it seems like that picks up as a like this is acceptable, or oh my goodness, someone who's a celebrity had the same issue I did, and like because then like you know, memoirs get written and yeah, movies get made, and all of a sudden it seems like this is so it's interesting that that is what's happening here, but also we've seen

that throughout history a lot with different things related to mental health, substance use, and just behavioral health in general. 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:48.960 Yeah, and and also something else very, very important too, and that's what got me really interested in it too, from a scientific point of view, because I've been teaching in universities for 24 years. 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.559 I've taught at universities, you know, on four or five continents. 00:18:52.880 --> 00:19:04.480 And you know, what I was looking at was um uh research from military institutions and defense ministries, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US, right? 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:12.559 The five eyes, all of those now point to P to EMDR as a sort of a go-to for PTSD for soldiers. 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:15.599 And I was like, wow, something really important is happening here. 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:29.759 And so you had the celebrities picking up on it, you had the militaries picking up on it for you know, millions of soldiers who came back from all very damaged from Afghanistan and from um uh Iraq and other parts of the world. 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:37.279 And so I worked with many of these guys uh as veterans, uh, and it it has worked uh remarkably well. 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:42.160 And I think that's a question that comes up is is EMDR for everyone? 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:44.799 Is it something that everyone could go to? 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:53.839 Because I think sometimes people talk about like anyone could go to a counselor and it's a it's a place where you can sit down, you can talk, you can get like get support. 00:19:55.039 --> 00:20:06.880 Is EMDR something that would fit anyone that is seeking some kind of support, whether it's substance use, trauma, mental health, whether it's relationship issues. 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:13.359 And we know trauma plays a role in often a lot of those things that are going on. 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:17.440 So it kind of begs the question does EMDR work for everyone? 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:24.559 Or there are there's some times where someone would say EMDR is not appropriate for what you have going on. 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:34.720 I think that's something that people might want to wonder if that's sort of how it can be used, or there are times where someone would say, like, this is not appropriate for you. 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.160 Yeah, that's that that's a really uh great point. 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:47.200 Uh you know, I'd like to turn it upside down, and I would like to ask you what percent of people finish 52 weeks uh uh uh top therapy? 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:48.880 Do you know what what percent? 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:50.880 Let's say what percent don't finish. 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:52.160 Yeah, very low. 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:53.519 Yeah, very low. 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.799 Yeah, it's uh 5% finish. 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:13.119 So if you want to be talking about somebody who is feeling better after you

know 52 weeks, which is kind of a standard, like how are you doing after one year is a pretty good standard for any medical or psychological or psychiatric, you know, um you know, three months, you know, and then 12 months. 00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:17.680 And then 95% say, Oh, I stopped, it wasn't doing anything for me, so I stopped. 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:18.880 And why did I stop? 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:20.240 It wasn't working. 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:29.680 And so don't tell me that that talk therapy is the go-to, that CBT, everybody works for CBT, that you know, family systems, it works for them. 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.359 Gestalt is is very traumatic, gestalt therapy. 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:34.960 It doesn't work for everybody, right? 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:46.880 Um, and so so EMDR comes along and it is a fairly standard uh, you know, it's been looked at very carefully uh in in hundreds of journals now. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:48.559 It's been very well researched. 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.279 It is it is a protocol, right? 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.359 It's an eight step protocol. 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:59.519 And that's what I was teaching when I was in Ukraine with these uh RV psychologists. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:07.359 And uh I have to say to you that, you know, um uh I don't want to toot my horn. 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:15.839 And I would definitely say if it didn't work in almost all cases, people were much, much better after four, six, ten hours. 00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:19.920 Uh with some very heavy duty, very hardcore issues. 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:25.200 Like I said, you know, sexual abuse, incest, rape, uh, sexual assault. 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:30.480 Uh my best friend was blown up in front of me in the battlefield in Ukraine. 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.240 Uh my um my colleague didn't obey an order and he's dead, and I blame myself. 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:42.880 Uh uh my sister committed suicide, and I called her the night before, and I feel responsible. 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:46.559 You know, uh hardcore stuff, right? 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:57.759 And I would will give you my own lived experience of working with these people that in most cases there's a great deal of relief because what are we doing? 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:06.079 We're bringing these primitive, uh, ancient emotions uh out uh carefully and calmly. 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:14.880 Uh and when we do that, the fear goes down automatically because we're giving it its human size, right? 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:16.559 We're putting it out there. 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.839 Desensitization, I like the word detachment. 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.759 I like the word becoming objective. 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:26.880 It's the first time in many people's lives they will say, Oh, that's what happened. 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:28.160 Uh that's what happened. 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:29.839 It wasn't what I thought. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.799 It wasn't how I thought about it, it wasn't how I viewed it. 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:41.680 And and it feels better that I understand what happened because I've never been able to do that in talk therapy. 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:47.599 Because why the reptile brain does not talk to the logical brain, they don't talk to each other, right? 00:23:47.680 --> 00:24:03.680 And an EMDR is is sideways, it's not from the back to front, it's sideways, and it's integrating these various parts of the brain that integrate taste, feel, smell, sound, and time together in an event. 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:16.799 And automatically we should we should kind of just intuitively as humans, wow, now I have a narrative, now I have a story, now I'm calmer because I understand what happened. 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.359 And now what am I gonna do with that? 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:26.480 Now that I'm sitting here as an adult in a calm space, in a safe space, what am I gonna do about this? 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:28.720 What am I gonna believe about myself? 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:34.240 For me, it's all about what am I gonna believe about myself that was not true before? 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:40.240 Or what belief did I pick up during the trauma that is no longer true or was never true? 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:43.519 People say, I'm a coward, it was my fault. 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:44.880 I should have done more. 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.799 I didn't do enough to get away. 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.079 I liked it, a big one, right? 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:59.440 Um I uh uh you know, oh my my father said I was a coward, so I must be a coward in this circumstance. 00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:08.720 And so we look to the the event to see what did we come to pick up as beliefs about ourselves, then as adults we say that's not true anymore. 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.039 That just oh, in fact, you know what? 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:13.920 I hear it 80% of the time. 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:20.079 That belief I had about myself for 15, 20, 30 years was never true. 00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:47.839 Which also can last, and I think that's one of the things I heard about you in the interview that you did, which was like there's this traumatic event, but there's also this ongoing experience where like we kind of look at this event that happens, or this events, but also like how it becomes an ongoing experience of how someone feels, even five, ten, twenty years after that that trauma we used to see it as like an event. 00:25:48.480 --> 00:26:20.079 I I tend to see it more as like an experience that that can continue for there's really no ending necessarily to say like this is how long it lasts, but I think we used to see it as like this event, and we focus so much on the event itself, and then an event usually has like a start and end, or like it it is this thing, but then the trauma becomes something that someone experiences ongoing and and for so long, and it but could also be experiencing traumatic events ongoing. 00:26:20.400 -->

00:26:21.759 Yeah, that's a good way to put it. 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.759 I I would say I like that a lot. 00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:31.680 I I would say that uh unprocessed trauma is an ongoing an ongoing experience, yeah. 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:44.079 And not only that, it's even more of a freak show and more alarming because our brain, the different parts of our brain absorb our hearing and our sight and our smell and our sense of taste. 00:26:44.319 --> 00:27:00.480 And so when we remember traumas, we remember them because oh, I saw a face that looked like the guy that assaulted me, or that looked like the my father who beat me up, or oh, that smell was what I smelled in the battlefield, or oh my god, that noise makes me think back of the event. 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:11.920 And so you have all this like this this uh uh a jumble uh of the five senses, and time is floating around, and so it's an experience. 00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:19.279 I would submit to you that EMDR turns that jumbled experience into an event. 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.359 That is what EMDR does, it turns it into a single event. 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.759 This happened to me, and when I can say this happened to me, aha. 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:36.720 Uh, this happened to me, I felt this, and I uh believe this about myself. 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:43.200 And after we can talk about that for a few minutes, people will say, wait a minute, that doesn't that doesn't sound right. 00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:46.480 That what I came to believe about myself isn't doesn't sound right. 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.319 That that I don't think that's true. 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:56.960 Well, this this this is what happened to me, seems to be like an event that does have a start and end that can be placed in a time. 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:03.359 This is who I am, seems to be something that just carries with you forever, then. 00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:04.880 Well, that's right. 00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:10.960 And and EMDR breaks that breaks that that that gets rid of that broken record. 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.839 Yeah, we go around and around and around, and by the way, hey, you know what? 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.039 I'm used to that broken record, I like the broken record. 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:26.000 And you know, one of my mentors said, Well, unfortunately, you know, the needle's upside down and it's really awful music. 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.240 And do you are you sure that's true? 00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:32.400 Are you sure that that that song is you know is your song? 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.079 And that's what EMDR does. 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:51.279 It asks us to um be get into a uh a little bit of a discomfort zone and uh and and think uh uh uh about how am I going to reinterpret and reprocess my past in terms of what I have come to believe about myself. 00:28:51.359 --> 00:29:02.400 But when you do the eye movement, there's a blurring out of the fear and the sadness and the anger, right, and the uh fear, right? 00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:04.319 What are we doing in EMDR? 00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:05.440 We're grieving. 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:10.079 EMDR is an emotional process of grieving, and what is grief? 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:20.880 Grief is a complex emotion of sadness and uh fear and anger, and the underlying foundation is shame, and that is what EMDR does. 00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:39.119 It it processes those emotions, and we get to emotions of acceptance, and we get to emotions of boundaries that I can take care of by boundaries, I can accept what happened, I can um come to forgive myself, big one. 00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:45.200 And then the last thing, and this is where I tell you, I swear, my friend, I've seen this in six languages. 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.720 We you could even get to a point of not forgiving. 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.759 This is not about forgiveness, forgetting. 00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:03.200 We want to come to a point of maybe some pity for the oppressor, because that is really the highest calling of humanity, is to move on in life. 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:07.680 You know, we don't forgive our oppressor, we find pity for them. 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:16.319 And I swear to you, I have come to that word in six languages, and it's crazy how humans will arrive at that. 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:23.039 It's not forgiveness, it's not uh understanding, it's not empathy, it's different, it's pity. 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:35.759 I'm sorry you're like that, I'm not like that, I'm moving on, and that's where we want to get with trauma self-forgiveness, acceptance, self-trust, and a little bit of pity. 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.799 And that's what EMDR tends to do in this process called grieving. 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:47.200 And one thing you did, which seems very unique, is you create an app for EMDR. 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:48.880 Yeah. 00:30:49.119 --> 00:31:02.240 I'm and I'm very curious, was there was there any pushback to that or any challenges to being able to provide that through an app, considering what EMDR does? 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.599 I can imagine some people at first may have been like, well, how do you do this through an app? 00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:08.720 Like you're like, how do you do this through that? 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:15.599 Was when you had that idea or when you created, was there anyone that was telling you, hey, you can't do EMDR through an app? 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.480 That's got to be in person, that's got to be with somebody. 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:29.279 Um I was very curious because I I downloaded the app, I did the first exercise, I kind of went through it, and I was just curious, was there initial support right away for that? 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:35.039 Because I don't think a lot of EMDR is available through apps like we're seeing with other things. 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:36.799 Well, yeah, look, here's the problem. 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:38.400 Yeah, that's a

that's a great point. 00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:51.839 And so here, when I I finished all of this EMDR training with these uh 50 psychologists, great ladies, my God, the Ukrainian women are like the toughest mofo women in the world, man. 00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:56.480 These guys are not giving up, they're not gonna lose, they are gonna go right to the mat. 00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:58.400 Amazing people. 00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:15.119 So I finished it, and uh by my my like my my uh the lady who was like showing me around, and then she would take me to the you know to the um the uh the cellar when the air raids would went up and the bombings happened, and she was great and so brave. 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:19.119 And she said, Paul, you know, she's a colonel, a 29-year-old colonel. 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:27.359 Uh and she said, Paul, you know, yeah, you've trained 50 um uh EMDR people now, and they can go into the front lines and do the EMDR. 00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.160 We don't need 50, we need 5,000. 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.599 And that is when I got the idea of the app. 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:46.720 We don't have time, we don't have time for 100,000 plus soldiers, millions of domestically displaced people inside Ukraine, 5 million uh refugees outside of Ukraine. 00:32:47.039 --> 00:33:13.200 There are 100 million refugees in the world right now, and Ukraine is absolutely 100% super focused that they do not want to have a repeat to what happened to the veterans in the United States with runaway homelessness, mental illness, domestic abuse, uh, and uh unemployment, and suicide. 00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:21.839 You know, but some of the there's more Americans have died by suicide in America than what that were killed in uh Afghanistan and Iraq combined. 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.400 Ukraine does not want to do that. 00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:28.400 So, my primary purpose for doing this was to have something in Ukrainian. 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:38.079 The app is in 10 languages now, uh, because we have got we've got 10 million refugees in Sudan right now, 10 million in one country. 00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:46.000 So, altogether, way north of 100 million refugees, there are so many refugees from Russia and Ukraine and Barcelona. 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:51.599 Spain's been great to uh allow these people to come and try to find a home to get asylum. 00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.880 And Ukrainians are so damn talented, right? 00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:01.039 They're so sharp, they're such amazing people, and they've been given such a raw deal from Russia. 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:15.039 And so I believe this and I just last weekend I trained another 160 uh psychologists on Zoom uh through another colonel in the army. 00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:25.440 And so that they're really embracing it because they know there's no time, they don't have enough therapists in Ukraine, they do not have enough psychiatrists. 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:28.079 This is done with me as an audio guide. 00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.760 I wrote, I spent months writing the audio guide myself. 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:39.920 It is not you know self-administered, it's guided by me in my voice, uh, in um nine different uh areas. 00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:45.440 And uh it is a protocol, it's a specific protocol, right? 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:47.679 I do it as the protocol, right? 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:54.480 And so um, you know, it's not just you know how you're feeling, it is a it's a disciplined protocol. 00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.840 And so I believe it is uh it's time has come. 00:34:58.079 --> 00:34:59.360 It's time has come. 00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:04.480 We have more refugees right now in the world than there were in World War II at the end. 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:22.000 Yeah, and that always comes up where we hear about the need, and then something like this becomes available, which can provide something, you know, EMDR for so many, and then it seems like there's kind of like a yo-yo back and forth, but then it's like, well, can this do what it needs to do? 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:23.599 There's no person there. 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:30.719 So I always feel like that happens where we get into this this spot, and you seem to be like, look, this is a need, and here's something that can help with that. 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:49.599 Because I feel like that happens so often where we say there's not enough, there's the resources aren't there, now we can do this, but then people kind of want to tug back and be like, Well, no, we just need to have more people do it, or we need to have the resources to make it like more people can learn how to get trained in it. 00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:56.400 Not everyone jumps on board when it comes to like an app or a digital therapeutic tool that can be used. 00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:57.760 Um, any thoughts on that? 00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:58.239 Because I think that's a good thing. 00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:58.880 Well, that's right. 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:05.840 I mean, I think that I think it was like Schopenhauer, who said that any new any idea is always going to be met with contempt and then it becomes accepted. 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:11.360 You know, there's always that that that process of contempt to acceptance for any new idea. 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:12.239 That's the first thing. 00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:23.039 The second thing is, like we talked about a minute ago, 95% of people drop out of talk therapy in the first 52 weeks, right? 00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.559 That is a 95% failure rate, right? 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:28.880 Uh what is going on here, right? 00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:38.320 And so why are we not talking about the failure of talk therapy instead of you know uh questioning why you know EMDR is is is reasonable. 00:36:38.480 --> 00:37:03.360 And if it's a protocol and if it's guided by me, and I spent months doing it based on hundreds of uh EMDR treatments I've done, plus you know, it it having to explain this

in a foreign language to you know 50 highly trained psychologists in Ukraine really makes me have to really focus on you know being precise about what I'm saying and what I'm doing and what I'm thinking about. 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:11.119 And so that was a really great event for me to be able to focus my mind on what in the hell is actually being done here in very simple language. 00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:16.320 And so I just think that I think that EMDR will overtake talk therapy in five years. 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:18.239 I'm completely convinced. 00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:29.840 And what would you say, how would you describe to someone who they might be able to imagine when they go to a counseling session or a therapy session what that might look like? 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:33.920 How do you explain what an EMDR session is like? 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:40.559 Do you think most people have an idea of what that is to be there and sitting in that? 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:47.280 Uh what would you say to people who are of like no idea they're like you what is this is there some tool or instrument being used? 00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:47.679 Yeah. 00:37:48.480 --> 00:38:03.360 How would you explain like a just and I'm not asking for like the whole time and treatment or the whole sessions, but just in general, like what would someone expect when they are in an EMDR session versus some other modalities of treatment? 00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:07.760 Yeah, you so you're sitting right across from each other, maybe you're sitting one and a half feet away. 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:22.880 It is a relationship, it's not like this distant uh, you know, uh, you know, the the the avoidance at all cost of any you know transference or counter-transference in a therapist, you know, session where the therapist has to be arm's length and so forth, and so on. 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:24.320 It is a relationship. 00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:29.360 Um, number one, number two, uh the person is uh conscious at all times. 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.360 The person is a hundred percent with the program. 00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:33.760 This has got nothing to do with hypnosis. 00:38:33.920 --> 00:39:03.760 Number three, uh, the person um initially, as we do, like maybe one and a half minutes of eye movement, some tears, and oh wow, I just remembered something, and it's not connected, but it this happened as well, and then we get a timeline, and then we get uh uh this happened to me in this order, and we we look for words and we keep it very simple, it is not talk therapy, simple. 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.840 All of talk therapy, uh EMDR is coming from the heart. 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.320 We are looking at coming from the heart. 00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:17.920 What are these ancient emotions and and events that no longer are appropriate for an adult? 00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:34.320 How do we re-examine our past beliefs about ourselves in the light of being a grown adult in a safe space uh with a

trained person uh who has written books on this and has done this with hundreds of people? 00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:46.000 And we can eventually get to maybe four, six, eight hours uh of reconciliation and peace of mind with understanding wow, that happened to me. 00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:49.920 Uh the beliefs I had about myself just are true. 00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:57.760 Uh wow, I I I can uh trust my intuition, I can trust my own self, I can trust myself again. 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:02.639 Um, I I I can uh I can maintain boundaries with people. 00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.119 I can get, I can stay in my body. 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:06.559 That comes up a lot. 00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:12.880 Sexual abuse survivors disassociate from their bodies, and the EMDR allows people to come back in their bodies. 00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.119 Very common, uh, what I see. 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:20.000 And so uh in in in almost all cases, it is a joyous end. 00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:25.840 And and I don't want to see a person after five or six sessions, like I'll be their friend, but I don't want to see them again. 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:28.400 I don't want to see them 50 times in a row. 00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:30.320 I want them to go away. 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:33.440 I want them to be happy and finish uh the process. 00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:37.840 And it does tend to work after six, eight, ten hours. 00:40:39.440 --> 00:41:03.280 So one one thing I want to ask before we wrap up is I think this is a great, I guess like an elevator pitch I'm asking you for a clinician who might be a skeptic or uh individual who's not sure about EMDR, doesn't know if this is gonna be right for them, or they they're not sure of it. 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:12.400 Like, how would you speak to them as what you're seeing and experiencing with EMDR? 00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:13.920 Like what would you say to them? 00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:20.880 You give your your chance to say something about what you've noticed, your experience, all stuff that you've done, the work. 00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:31.840 How would you try to just talk with them about what they might not be recognizing or what they might not be seeing as far as what the potential for EMDR is? 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.760 Well, yeah, my app is called iMover, so I-M-O-V-E-R. 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.440 You can go on there and look at the uh introduction for free. 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.880 You can go on uh into the addiction area for free. 00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:45.119 I made it super, super cheap. 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:48.960 It's ridiculously it's eight, eight dollars or something, some crazy number. 00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:52.159 Uh, you know, uh talk therapy is 150. 00:41:52.320 --> 00:42:19.519 Uh and I would say if you're if talk therapy is not working, if you have a constant broken record of shame and fear and anxiety and and um sadness and anger going round and around and around, uh and you feel like events in the past uh haunt you and you can't get rid of them, and you keep revisiting them and you're hyper-alert and hyper-vigilant, give EMDR a chance. 00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:25.039 Because you know, we got the Pentagon that spends billions of dollars on this, right? 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:36.320 UK Ministry of Defense, Australian Ministry of Defense, Canadian Ministry of Defense, number one uh use for uh number one treatment for PTSD uh EMDR. 00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.440 Uh and you have the National Institutes of Health saying the same thing. 00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:43.920 You have American Psychiatric U Association, American Psychological Association. 00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:45.599 I have seen it with my own eyes. 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:50.320 The Ukrainian army invited me to the Ukraine to train their psychologists. 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:55.360 They are in the cutting edge of war right now, like no other country in the world. 00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:00.159 And they see EMDR as a way out for PTSD for their soldiers. 00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:02.320 Thank you for that. 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:18.400 I think that's gonna be a a great thing for people to hear because I imagine there is some of that going, and you mentioned it some from the criticism to skepticism to people not being a fan of it, not liking it, and just to hear about your experiences, a chance to go on the app. 00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:23.519 I know I went on it uh and did the first exercise, and I was gonna What was your experience? 00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:24.320 Tell me. 00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:26.000 I like it was different. 00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:43.360 You know, I've I've been looking at a bunch of different apps because just there's a lot of apps for a lot of things with addiction and recovery and everything from you know craving logs and did it give you some sense of a peace of mind or a sense of uh relief? 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.679 It gave me a lot of slowing down. 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:52.400 Um, I think it it helped to sort of slow things down versus normally I like it. 00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:52.880 I like it. 00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:59.440 I like a lot of apps try to engage with you, like to kind of keep you doing something, right? 00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:05.679 And this one sort of kind of was one to sit with without feeling like there was a lot to then. 00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:07.360 Yeah, I like that. 00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:08.159 I really like that. 00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:09.199 That's a really good insight. 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:16.480 Yes, so I'm gonna try some other parts of it, but so far I was when I saw that it was available and there were some parts of it you could try. 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:19.760 It's one of the things I did before you know hopping on and talking with you. 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:31.119 Yeah, so we have uh EMDR for soldiers, refugees, uh, sexual abuse, uh, burnout, uh, transition, uh escaping the narcissist, and addiction. 00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:34.239 Yeah, a lot of a lot of amazing topics. 00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:35.599 So thank you for that. 00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:46.400 All right, uh, this has been a great conversation based on everything we've talked about, anything that you've got going on, what would be a final message you'd like to leave with listeners? 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:50.880 We are designed to heal. 00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:54.719 All too often we are in our own self-constructed prisons. 00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.199 Pick up the key, it's right in front of you. 00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:59.920 Open up the door, uh, you can do it. 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:01.199 I love that. 00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:07.039 I don't think everyone had anyone really say uh one of the important messages we are designed to heal. 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:09.599 I think that is really, really important. 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:10.480 Thank you for sharing that. 00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:11.119 Promise. 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:12.400 I see it all the time. 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:13.119 Yeah. 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:15.280 Well, I appreciate you being on the podcast. 00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:19.920 We will let people know where they can connect with you, learn more about what you're doing. 00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:28.159 They can find links to download the app and learn more about EMDR, but I do want to thank you for jumping on the show and talking to me today. 00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:28.960 Thank you. 00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:30.639 Uh another Midwestern German. 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:32.960 So, yeah, have a great day. 00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:34.480 One quick thing before you go. 00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:41.119 If you've gotten value from Paul's episode, from this one or any other one, the best thing you can do is leave a review on Apple Podcasts. 00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:42.880 I'm not asking for anything elaborate. 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:46.159 Tap the stars, write one sentence about what the show means to you. 00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:49.679 It helps more people in the behavioral health and recovery space find us. 00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:51.679 I appreciate you more than you know. 00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:56.719 You've been listening to Talking Addiction and Recovery with Andrew J. 00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:57.440 Dreyer. 00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:05.920 We're so glad you've joined us and invite you to connect further with the show and these topics at www.andrewjdryer.com. 00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:11.119 That's andrewjsc r e-i r.com. 00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:18.719 You can also email us directly at talkingaddiction and recovery at gmail.com and connect on social media. 00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:28.079 Instagram at talkingaddiction and recovery, Facebook, Talking Addiction and Recovery Podcast, and Twitter at talkar underscore podcast. 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:32.639 To stay connected and never miss an episode, be sure to like, rate, and subscribe. 00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:37.360 Until next time, friends, let's keep talking addiction and recovery.