A Completely Unhinged Feminist Rant의 전체 녹취록

toward sort of patriarchy. But when, when they d- display weaponized incompetence for caring for your child, that's a m- that's a s- consequential problem Kimberly: When, when our first child came home with us, um, w- there, I, I was with him, like, 24/7 for a few weeks before I felt comfortable, like, stepping away. And so one evening, I was finally like, "Can you please, can you please," to, to my husband, "Can you please just watch the baby? I need, like, 20 minutes to a half an hour to go to the corner market and get a Coke or whatever and just, like, out of the house for a minute because it's been 24/7 for weeks." And so I did, and I was probably gone about, like, a half an hour, and when I came home the baby was fine, but there was a hole in our door Because he had gotten so upset at the baby crying and didn't want to take it out on the baby, so he punched a hole in the door. what I learned from that was my baby's not safe with you. I didn't have it that consciously as a, as a, as a thought. It was much more like just never felt like the baby to him and leaving. Like, I just didn't, I, like, so it wasn't so much a conscious thought as it was just, like, sort of ingrained in me, like, the baby's safer with me. And that's, that's why I got triggered with, with the thought of her taking the baby to the bathroom, because the bathroom is not a great place to bring your baby if you have to pee. Like, what, you're gonna either s- like, sit in your lap, or you have to set it on a, on a You know, it's, it's, it's not a better choice than leaving your baby with a capable, confident, safe partner Michelle: And she came back with four boxes of food, which is not easy to carry. So her, she, she was not in a more convenient place to take that baby with her, by far. So something was deciding her for her Kimberly: and based on my experience with, with our first baby, I'm, I kinda wonder, it, that, that, it triggered me that that was my first thought was what has he done or said that has made him appear to her to be a less safe or competent choice? Michelle: Maybe it's a really good time to lean into our anger. That feels right to me right now. 00:05:37.000 --> 11:26.000 Men making shit up to make themselves feel better Michelle: So there, there are so many, there are so many little things that are unequal between men and women, and, and one of the ones that's bothering me most right now is this idea of women creating life and birthing babies. I mean, the... Every, every man was ever created by a woman, and patriarchy has layered on this male god who created a man and then created a woman out of a man, when in reality, biologically, every man came from a woman, and yet they had to layer on this male version. Um, women create all of the Christmas magic, right? I mean, if you celebrate Christmas or whatever holiday you celebrate. You create Christmas magic, who gets the, the credit for that? Santa Claus. Mr. Santa Claus. So it's just everywhere. And then women's an- Kimberly: Bunny's a man. Michelle: yes Kimberly: Tooth Fairy has been both, depending on which family you come from Michelle: I think Tooth Fairy's always been a, a, a f- a girl, a woman Kimberly: N- it depends on who. I've heard families that have both. Michelle: Okay. Well that's, that's cleaning up, Kimberly: m- more Michelle: body parts. Tooth Fairy cleans up body parts Kimberly: And pays you for it. Michelle: Yes, pays you for it Kimberly: Okay. Okay. All right. So yeah, I mean, a lot of this... Yes, it's very true a lot of the savior figures in our culture have been men Michelle: So it, it's this, this idea of always having to create some sort of fantasy or story that men are capable, in charge, protectors, all of this when it's just a facade. So let's take, for example, the, the ancient warriors that are being dug up. In the 1920s, there were warriors being dug up, and they had bones, and they had graveyards nearby for sort of the regular people. And then they had these e- extravagant, grand warrior, uh, grave sites with horses and swords and shields and all sorts of things that sort of celebrated them as the warrior. And in 1920s, when they dug them all up, they said, "Oh, these all must be men." Just concluded that. Didn't even ask the question, but just assumed these were all men warriors. In the 2020s with genetic analysis, we can find out, we have found out that many of these warriors are women, women warriors. And the conclusion that men come to isn't, "Oh, that was a mistake. Now we need to acknowledge that this society had women warriors." Their conclusion was, this is the slave of the warrior or the wife of the warrior or the, the, the women are buried with the horses and somehow the male skeleton has been carted off, you know, grave robbed or whatever. So this is a fantasy about, first of all, just not even asking the question and assuming they're men. And second of all, if they're women, there must be some reason they're women, not that they're women warriors. So I'm so tired right now. I'm so tired of this patriarchy layering on these fantasies about men. One of the biggest ones is that men are under cap- uh, under control of their emotions, right? A man gets angry. That is normal, and it is appropriate. And they start... It's not emotion, right? It's just male, right? And so they start wars with this, and they have fights with each other and all sorts of things like that. Women's anger, it's emotional. It's out of control. It's, uh, incapable. And then at the same time, okay, I'm on a... This, this is, it's getting me angry so often. So I've seen, uh, several videos too, when we're talking about weaponized incompetence, where men will get on and say, um, "We were just stupid. You just have to tell us. We're stupid. We don't see the mess. We don't see these things. You just have to tell us, and we'll learn how to do this." But there's a biological difference that men are incapable of seeing the things that you

see. And yet they're the ones who have all the political power and all the commercial power. If they're incapable of running a home and keeping it clean and keeping kids healthy and alive, then why do we think they're capable of running countries? Kimberly: That's a really good point. Yes, absolutely. I, I, yeah, I'm so, so, so sick of this, "Well, if you would just tell me," or, "If you would just ask," or, "All you have to do is let me know." And here's the, here's the reality is that by the time a guy gets to that point with his partner, w- h- his wife or his girlfriend, it's because she has told you again and again and again and again and again and again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again. And you still didn't get it. And so she's gonna stop. Eventually she's gonna stop. And this is why I think they do it because they know eventually they're gonna wear you, you down and we're gonna, we're gonna stop asking because it's harder to continue to ask for what we need and not get it than it is to stop asking for what we need Michelle: But I think the, the ul- the additional layer is just really dangerous, and that is that men are lean- are hearing us say, "We've asked 1,000 times and you won't do it." And then they're coming in and saying, "We hear you asking us. We're not capable of seeing, you know, of looking around and seeing what's, what's there." So if you're gonna lean into the stupidity, lean into the incapability, do that across the, the, the spectrum. Who's the head of the household? Who, who typically fires, files as head of the household for US taxes? The man, right? The woman does the ... Well, not, well, we don't know Kimberly: No, but and even back then, even when I was married, I always filed because I filed. I was filing, I put myself as head of household because I did the work. Michelle: But that default, I mean, don't even get me started on weddings, where she has to show the white dress of purity and he does not. Where the, the dad, who might not even have been in the bride's life most of her life, gets to walk her down the aisle and hand her off like cattle. Just, there's just so much of the wedding culture that is... And so she has to wear an engagement ring, uh, to signify that she is someone's property. Men don't wear engagement rings primarily. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of ingrained, subtle, a lot, a lot of ingrained, subtle misogyny and patriarchy 00:11:26.000 --> 15:15.000 Periods and power Michelle: So women, women can't be president because, well, this is, this is what I hear. Women can't be president because we have periods and we're emotional, and we have fluctuations in our cycles. And yet every single war in the history of everywhere has been started by a man, 100% of them Kimberly: So okay, so let's talk about cycles for a moment. I, I know that there are women who really do struggle when they're having their period with physical pain, with emotional stress, that I, I do know that that's th-

that is the case in a lot of cases. I do not walk around my world looking at women and going, "Oh, God, I wonder if she's on her period today." Like, it never crosses my mind whether a woman's on her period. If she's having emotional reaction or if she's completely flat affect, doesn't matter, it never, ever crosses my mind that her period has anything to do with it. So I don't know why we just sort of accept that, that even women do, like, accept it. Like, "Oh, my God, I'm so s- just don't listen to me, I'm on my period." No, bullshit. Your period, if you're, if that's seven days out of every 28-ish, that means a quarter of your adult life is in that emotional space. That, that kinda is you. So don't just brush off, like, h- a quarter of who you are simply because you happen to be bleeding. Like, all that's all I'm just saying is, like, we should stop belittling women because they are on their period Michelle: I think it's exactly the opposite. A woman on their period for a quarter of their adult life, and they still get their ass out there, and they still do the work even though there's a lot of pain. And I, I feel like women are e- being even stronger right now by saying, "You know what? I need a minute. I need a minute because I'm bleeding out of my body, and it's just painful, and I have a headache, and I can't see very well." And they take 10 minutes, and they go do what they're gonna do and then come back, right? But they're still getting out there. Women are still getting out there and being successful in the world despite this challenge of emotional cycles. Despite that. I mean, how s- how strong is that? I mean, what if men had to deal with this, uh, over and over again? I don't know. I don't think it's a... Well, okay, first of all, period products would be free, and they would get a quarter of their life as vacation days Oh, it's one of my favorite things to see is, uh, when women hook up men to the period simulator. Kimberly: Oh, I love that. I Michelle: I love that, yeah. Kimberly: Love it Michelle: Because then they put it right on themselves and they say, "Yeah, this is accurate. It's not like we're torturing men. We're just saying this is what women go through and still get out of bed." Kimberly: And you could, and you could say something like, your physiology's..." It's the same amount of pain we're producing for each person. Michelle: Right Kimberly: The fact that we push through it does, it should count for something. Michelle: It, it shouldn't just count for something, it's everything. It's, it's showing the strength of fe- of women Kimberly: A- and I agree with you. I, I, I agree that what, what you're talking about is, is pushing through it and that makes us strong. what I'm saying is we shouldn't dismiss women because they're in a space in the moment where they're having to push through the pain. Like, if they're pushing through the pain and it's making them really, really crabby, we can't just then dismiss everything that they do and say for seven whole days out of every 28. We can't, we can't just be like, "Okay, I'm ch- I'm checking out. I'm gonna check out until you're over your period and then you come back to me." Is... No. It still is your whole person should be allowed to always be however it is. That's all I'm saying. Don't dismiss women just because they're on their period 00:15:15.000 --> 16:50.000 Work at home is work Michelle: This, I, I, I haven't really heard in, in my corporate arena that women are dismissed because of their periods. I think there is a definite dismissal of women who come back from mat leave. So in Canada, mat leave can be 18 months, and when they come back, there's definitely not the same respect after that. But they have done so much growing and working in those 18 months that men never get really the opportunity to do in the same way Kimberly: Yeah, and, and that, that's part of a bigger problem of, of even pe- even w- women who are stay-at-home parents. I mean, and, and this kind of leans into the, the problem also that I have with the tradwife lifestyle, is that it completely dismisses the efforts that women put in to keep a household running. And the, the reality is it, it takes as much to keep a household running as it does to keep a corporation running. It's, there's It takes the same type of, um, attention to detail, but also ability to look at a bigger picture and to juggle multiple things all at the same time. And the fact that women are doing that and it's like, "Well, you're not really, you don't really have any work experience." Bullshit you don't have work experience if you've been home. Work, managing a household for 20 years, you have 20 years of work experience Michelle: I've heard it called the baby vacation, which just boils my blood because it's so much work on no sleep. And I've heard calculations of how much money it actually, if you had to pay for those things, for a, a night nurse and a cleaner and a driver and a cook and all this, how much money it would cost, and it's just astronomical. Kimberly: Insane Michelle: But to look at it that way I think is really important. 00:16:50.000 --> 18:53.000 Male egos crushed by reality Michelle: Okay, another one of my favorite things that I'm seeing is when average guys on the street are asked, "Do you think you could beat a professional basketball player in basketball or a professional, uh, sprinter on a sprinting..." And like, and, and they, I'm sure they select the ones who say yes, and then they actually do the, the event. Michelle: Okay, another one of my favorite things that I'm seeing is when average guys on the street are asked, "Do you think you could beat a professional basketball player in basketball or a professional, uh, sprinter on a sprinting..." And it's so funny to me that these guys, first of all, they're so egotistical and that they're willing to do this race or this basketball game. Don't you see it coming? I mean, don't they see it

coming? It's ju- I mean, they just get smashed by these women, and they don't see that coming. It's just so bizarre to me Kimberly: No, a- and I think, because I think they really truly believe it. They believe to their core that they are the best at everything. It, it's, it's weird. It's like, it's almost like things in life that knock you down and then we learn from those things and we become stronger and then we avoid those kinds of things or we figure out a different way to do those th- when tho- those things that knock them down, it's just like, th- there's no reflection, there's no learning. It, it's just like a non-acknowledgement of things that knock you down, and so they just believe that they're completely invincible Michelle: Where's that coming from? Society, parenting Kimberly: I think patriarchy and narcissism honestly is my, that's where I would tend to place that. Um, I think narcissism definitely, I mean, it's got all the hallmarks of narcissism, and that's in either gender. patriarchy, I think the entire system is designed to make, to make all of the knocks in life a softer landing for men Michelle: Yeah Kimberly: so they get used to this softer landing, so they're gonna take a lot more risks because when they get knocked down, they, they get hel- handled with kid gloves 00:18:53.000 --> 19:50.000 Soft landings for men Michelle: So we're not gonna talk about the Cornell Seven. We're not. We're not gonna go there. But I heard two things today that made me have to put my phone down and take a minute. First thing, the Cornell Seven, if they had said, "Free Palestine" instead of "Free Pussy," they would've been expelled. Had to put my phone down. Second thing, the essays that they had to write as punishment or reflection for the events they took part in, if they had plagiarized those essays, they'd be expelled So soft, soft landing. Soft landing Kimberly: I think that our hard landings are we just get beat and beat and beat and beat, and we fall and we hit and we scrape our knees and we hit our head, and we just keep getting up and keep, keep, keep at it 'cause of there's not really any other option. 00:19:50.000 --> 20:35.000 Women: support other women! Kimberly: but I, I wish that we could... here's what I wish. I wish that women come together and, and, and stop knocking other women, and come together and give each other a softer landing. Because it's not gonna happen from the men. The men don't give a shit. But I think also because we have been kinda taught that the only way to succeed in the patriarchy is, is competitively, and so we... And the only way to do that is to knock other women to get, to get there. And just, I wish that we didn't do that, and I wish that women would come together instead and be like, "I got you, girl." Michelle: I, I think that's happening more and more. So again, we're not talking about the Cornell Seven. We're not gonna go there. 00:20:35.000 --> 22:12.000 I am Jane Doe Michelle: But there is

a movement right now, the, uh, defense attorney is trying to find the name of Jane Doe, of the accuser, in order to do a smear campaign, of course. And so women are coming together right now on social media, and they're posting their profile picture as, "I am Jane Doe." I am, and you are, and they are, and they are. And I think this movement over the next week, I'm gonna watch it carefully because I think it's going to sweep. It's like the MeToo again. It's gonna sweep. I am Jane Doe. Come after me. That's fine. Come after me and all the 10,000 other women who have changed their profile picture. So that's that kind of coming together that we need to do Kimberly: I love that so much, and I do think that the social media has given us an opportunity to do that in ways that we never had before. And I do think that that's part of the reason that we're even able to have these conversations right now, is because we have a platform and a w- and a, and a place to have these conversations. really, really feel like, like back in the '50s and '60s and '70s, even into the '80s, w- the only community that women could build was physical community in, like, actually in their neighborhood. So, like, you could support from the church wim- the church ladies, from the PTA, from, like, a sewing circle, you had to be there to get that support. And so I don't think that many of our stories were really being shared in a way that now with social media we can share our stories and be like, "Yeah, uh, uh," that Me Too was critical for that because up until that point it was not safe to tell our stories. 00:22:12.000 --> 23:48.000 How #MeToo changed everything Kimberly: When we told ourse- I think younger people today do not realize what it meant for a woman to come forward with an allegation of rape in the '70s and '80s. Because it wasn't like you'd then go to court and litigate it You could expect 100% that you would go to court and you would be on trial. And th- and the defense would attack the woman and try to break down her credibility so that then they could the guy off. And, and this wasn't just like a take your chances, this was a, a guarantee. Like, if you are gonna take this guy to court, you will lose and you will be humiliated along the way. And it's gonna cost you money and friendships. And so no one's gonna do that in that world. No one's gonna... A, a few really brave people did. But then with Me Too, uh, one person, it took that first person to be like, "You told your story really, really bravely. It happened to me too." And then all these women were like, "Yes, all... Nobody will hear, hear my story, so if all we e- even are doing is telling other women our stories, at least we can, like, put it out there." And then it became too big for men to ignore anymore. And then, and then they really had to... had to face it in court. They had to l- literally face down the consequences of their actions. 00:23:48.000 --> 25:31.000 We're not talking about the Cornell

7 case Kimberly: And okay, so we're not gonna talk about the Cornell, is it a seven? Michelle: Mm-hmm. Kimberly: But the way that those men seem to have gotten off pretty easy is really reminiscent of how those accusations would have happened in the 80s. And I don't like that somebody or a lot of somebodies are trying to move us backwards to a place where women are shamed for speaking their truth. Michelle: So of course the, the, we're, we're not talking about the Cornell Seven. That's not the topic of this episode. However, I've heard people over and over again reading the original police transcript. It wasn't a police transcript, it was when she went to report this incident to the university. So the university wrote up her words, and what they were saying was that she voluntarily took drugs and alcohol, and she voluntarily gave consent to have seven men have sex with her. But she reported the incident why? And two years later, she's, she's saying 100% I was raped and I was coerced and I was coerced to take the drugs and I took the second dose of ketamine because I thought I would just pass out and then I wouldn't have to experience the, uh, the in- incident So they're, they created a soft landing for those, for those boys Kimberly: Yeah, it, it, and there's, there's an element to this too that there's, there's a good old boys club. And so the people that are taking these reports probably are not... They're probably filtering the information that they're getting, and what's get- what's getting written down on the actual report is through their filter of, like, this is, we gotta protect these boys 00:25:31.000 --> 26:46.000 Not all men? Michelle: So let's talk about another, another aspect of this story, not all men, right? I, I, we both want to believe it's not all men. I, I do to my soul believe that it's not all men. I think there are really good men out there. So one, we need to define what good man means. Good man doesn't mean you're not participating in that rape, right? That doesn't mean a good man. That's, that's like s- lower, lowest level, minimum. The, the text that said, "Free pussy at this, uh, fraternity house" went out to 50 men. 50 men. So how many of those 50 men do you think came in and said anything like, "This isn't right," or, "Guys, you, you're, this is not okay"? Kimberly: Probably zero Michelle: It was zero. So where are the good men? We wanna see them. We want to believe that they're there. We wanna see these, these good men step up. If you talk about, uh, women choosing the bear, the bear wouldn't call his friends to come eat that woman Kimberly: Yeah. Yeah. That's right Michelle: So it's not enough to be a good man. You have to show up. We have to be able to see it somewhere Kimberly: I get that there's a lot of peer pressure when you're in groups of men that are like that. Uh, a- and I understand that it's hard to stand up to that, but also it's not as hard as being the victim 00:26:46.000 --> 30:42.000 Anita Hill, we believe you Michelle: Do you remember in the '80s there was a woman named Anita Hill? Just fierce, amazing woman. She was an employee of Clarence Thomas, who's now sitting on the Supreme Court. And w- during his confirmation trial, she came forward and said that she had been sexually harassed by him many, many times. One example she gave was, uh, that there was a hair on a Pepsi she was drinking, and he said something about it being a pubic hair. And I could tell that all those men who are confirming him were saying, "So? That's not sexual harassment. There's nothing wrong with that." Probably to all the examples she gave, they're probably saying, "What are you talking about? You're just such an emotional, overreactive woman." But she was sexually harassed. In the, back in the '80s, I remember there was a bumper sticker that said, "Anita, we believe you." And I wanted that on every single car because this woman had the guts to come forward, and her name instead was dragged through the mud so much. And he ended up on the Supreme Court, and she ended up as some footnote joke, which is so incredibly inappropriate Kimberly: For decades her name, her name was the punchline of, of that joke. And, and here's the thing too, I- she was not just harassed, she was assaulted. Like, he touched her too. And we sort of, like, soften it by calling it harassment. Like, well, there's no touching, so it's really not that big of a deal. Without really, like, an acknowledgement that even, even if he didn't touch her, which he did, uh, it, that's so much more damaging or as equally damaging to a woman's psyche that as, as actually being touched is. Like, it, not nothing men do those things. It's, it, it's actually quite terrifying when men are harassing, sexually harassing women. It's a terrifying experience. Because partly, uh, like, like in my mind, I'm thinking to myself when I'm being harassed, sexually harassed, my, my, my first thought is, if this man doesn't have the capacity to understand that there's a b- boundary that, that he's just crossed or has chosen to cross that boundary in the arena of sexual harassment, how am I supposed to believe that he also, that he would then have a boundary about, about sexual assault? i- in my mind, the very first thing is, that this, this is not a safe person. And I kind of think that it sort of go hand in hand. I don't think it's a big stretch to say that the men who are willing to sexually harass a, a woman also probably don't really see women as real human beings and probably don't have a problem, like, atta- assaulting them or raping them or murdering them Michelle: When I think about the men who were listening to this story of Anita Hill telling about how she was harassed and maybe thinking it's nothing, my first thought was, very cynical thought, that these men who were confirming Clarence Thomas were thinking to themselves, "Oh, I treat women just like that, so I need to confirm this guy, otherwise they could come

after me." Kimberly: I don't even think they had that as a thought in their head. I don't think that... Because in order to think, "I treat women like that," they have to acknowledge that they are treating women any kind of way. honestly, I think what they were just thinking was, "She's describing all this stuff that happened to her. So what? Like, why is that... What... That... This is not a problem for us. Like, Michelle: He's overreacting Kimberly: Yeah, she's overreacting. Yeah." And, and, and it... I think it's taken a lot more decades before men started to realize that the way they treat women is actually a thing that they should be considering. That it's not just like you just do what everyone's doing without a second thought. No, you ha- have to actually think to yourself, "Do I wanna be that kind of guy that treats women like that? Or do I wanna be better than that?" 00:30:42.000 --> 35:34.000 So what is a "good" man? Michelle: So let's take a poll. How many, what percentage of men do you think are not all men? The good men Kimberly: Oh, I Michelle: I, w- before you say anything, I would love to hear comments from people. What percentage of men are good men? That we can see and demonstr- de- demonstrate that these are good men. Not just the ones who are not raping. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about demonstrably good men who are preventing other women from, from being harmed Kimberly: okay, so I'm not, uh, I'm not gonna give a percent, I'm not gonna give a number because it would be really, This is conjecture. This is all, and experience and anecdote Michelle: we, we truly to our soul believe that there are good men out there. We believe this. We need to define what a good man is. There is someone that I've seen on TikTok who is a good man. He calls himself the alpha male. Kimberly: The one guy. Michelle: I'm not saying there's just one. I'm not saying just one. It's just harder to see. This guy calls himself an alpha male, and he says, "You know what? I'm, I'm an alpha male. I go out and I provide for my family. I provide a hot meal at the end of the day. I provide baths to my kids." So he's the provider, and I just love this guy. He's, "I, I'm an alpha male. I know how to juggle." I mean, just beautiful things about the modern definition of a, a truly good al- alpha male Kimberly: I do see a lot of content creators that are men that, that speak as though they're understanding what we're saying. And, uh, and a lot of these content creators, their content is focused around mansplaining to men what women are trying to convey that they can't understand or hear because it's a woman's voice saying it. And, like, maybe if the guys are telling each other this, maybe they'll start to understand it. just really, really, really hope that those content creators are actually living out in real life the things that they're saying that they believe c- uh, online Michelle: I'm gonna once again call out a podcast called Pink Pill

Rx, who I just love. It's Katers8 and her husband. And the husband is, is the one who's on camera. And she's telling him all of this stuff about misogyny and, and, um, unfair treatment of women. And I mean, they have almost 700 episodes, something like that. And he gets on the podcast and he listens to what she says and he goes, "Oh "Give me a minute. I need to think this through." And he takes it in, and he absorbs it. And then he gives some, some feedback to her, and he asks questions about it. And I feel like that's a good man because he's willing to hear e- the, the experience of women instead of dismissing it as overreaction or sensitivity or whatever, what- however it's dismissed Kimberly: So one of the criteria that we have for good men is a willingness to be open and to listen and to learn. Okay, I would con- I, I, I would take that Michelle: Yes. Yes. I think that's one of the biggest things, to not dismiss Kimberly: I would say another criteria for being a good, a good man is to Practice what you preach. Like, if, if, if you do understand and you speak as though you understand, then, like, live that out too. Also, I think another criteria is we're not asking for perfection. We, Michelle: No Kimberly: And this is, I swear to God, I swear to God, one of the arguments I used to get all the time was like, "Oh, you're, uh, you're expecting way too much." And I'm like, "No, uh, what I'm really expecting is pretty much bare minimum." Like, all the women that I have in my life behave like this. You cannot tell me that you have no capacity to behave like this. It's a choice. yeah. So to tell me that I'm expecting too much is just putting blame on me for your behavior, and I'm done with that. I'm done with that. You can behave better. Michelle: It's shocking to me how different the realities are that women are living in and men are living in. And I know that I'm overgeneralizing, but this is the problem, is the, the completely different realities. Like the men who think they can beat professional women athletes, and the, the men who think that women are overreacting for being sexually assaulted. It's, uh, it, we have a long way to go, but we need to go there Kimberly: we started off talking about a woman who not only bore the burden, then her husband's behavior. What do we do with that? What do we, what do we do with that? Michelle: I think we need to be brave and call out bad behavior. Because, I mean, honestly, you and I are putting ourselves on the line right now. We're making some pretty severe accusations. We're, we're being really raw about what our li- lived experience has been. I think it's important to keep doing that, and to support women to support women, and everybody to believe women first 00:35:34.000 --> 39:15.000 The erosion of the marriage institution Kimberly: In my relationships, I believed that I was at fault. Like, because that's what we were taught. Like, if it, Michelle: Right Kimberly: if he did something to me, I must have provoked it, Like, I Michelle: what we've Kimberly: done something to provoke it, and then spend the rest of my life trying to figure out how to behave in a way that it doesn't provoke. And, and Michelle: Right Kimberly: th- this is actually one of the things that finally ended my marriage, was I got to the point where I had backed off of so ma- ... Like, I, I, I couldn't even come and say, "This makes me unhappy," because it would just turn into this huge fight because I was the problem. And eventually, when you have that relationship, and I just kept backing off and backing off and backing off to the point where there was nothing left. Like, the distance was so vast that we didn't even really have a relationship anymore, because I was not allowed to come and voice any of my discomforts or, or, or, or, or opinions Michelle: It's shocking how different the realities are. That your reality was that you just wanted to communicate your preferences, your needs, your boundaries, and his reality was, "I need to get my way at all costs and I'm gonna make her the, the perpetrator. I'm gonna make her the bad guy." Kimberly: I think the other thought that, that was going through his head was that my life would just be so much easier if she would just leave me the fuck alone. Michelle: Mm-hmm Kimberly: And so I learned how to leave him alone until there was nothing left to work with. It was just like s- like water, like there was nothing to hold onto anymore Michelle: I don't think he wanted you to leave him alone. I think he wanted you to only be what he wanted and not be actually you, a whole human Kimberly: That's fair. That's fair. My interpretation of it, of, of if I c- just leave him alone enough, eventually he'll like me is part of what got us to, Michelle: But if he really wanted you to leave him alone, he could have left you, and he didn't. He wanted you around for his, Kimberly: well... 'cause I was useful, Michelle: Right. Kimberly: was productive. Michelle: Right Kimberly: But, certainly I wasn't allowed to voice any dis- displeasure or discomfort. Yeah. Well, there's just, the, we just was nothing, there was nothing left there. I kinda wonder, like, on a bigger scale if that's sort of what's happening, culturally right now, is that men's voices have been so overpoweringly, "Just leave me the fuck alone," "Let me be myself, and you have to be who I need you to be," and all of those things that I experienced in my marriage, I think culturally women are like, nothing left then. You If I can't bring my whole self, get to bring your whole self, but I have to change my whole self to be you, to be with you, um, then, then what, then what are we doing? Like, what, what am I, what am I hanging onto?" And I think this whole, like, loneliness epidemic, and this decline in, in birth rates, and a lot of the things like women aren't dating, I think is culturally the experience that I was having s- specifically in, in my marriage. Which is if, if I

can't bring my whole self, and if you're also not bringing your whole self, then what are we doing? Michelle: Yep. I think what's, that's one of the biggest problems of marriage Which I think could be a whole, a whole second episode Kimberly: Yeah, I'll put it in my book Oh, oh, oh, oh. . 00:39:15.000 --> 41:46.000 Tactics and ultimatums Kimberly: So I used to, my marriage, I used to come up with that I thought would be effective because coming at problems authentically and honestly never worked. It was never effective. And so I had to come up with all these like, "Okay, if I do this, maybe that'll work." So here's one of the things that I used to do. I would say, "T- my car needs such and such done to it." And I'm perfectly capable of taking it to go get that fixed. But my husband didn't want to spend the money, and so he would say to me, "Don't take it to go get fixed because I don't want to spend the money. I will fix it." And then a week would go by, and then a month would go by, and then three months would go by, and then six months would go by. And I would occasionally bring it like, "Hey, I still need this thing fixed." Like, "I'm getting to it, I'm getting to it," and would never get to it. So then I felt so stuck because I was neither getting the work done by the, by my husband, but I also was not allowed to take it to get it fixed. So what I did was I started saying to him, "Okay, that's cool. If you want to fix it, I'm totally cool with that. If it's not fixed by a week from Friday, I'm taking it in." And it was almost always fixed by a week from Friday when I did that because he didn't want to spend the money. And it was, it... And he knew I always do it. knew I would take it in and, and get that taken care of. And I mean, the cars is just a situation. I don't know how to fix cars, and it's not something I'm interested in. Don't care. There's people for that. There's other things that I'm perfectly capable of doing. And if he didn't want to do it, fine, but don't hold me to the, you know, don't, don't hold me hostage. And so I just learned so many stupid little tactics. when I realized that these were efforts that I didn't want to have to put in just to keep a relationship going, it was one of the things that just finally was... I like, ugh. Look, I can... Men will say that we ne- we, that we need them for things like fixing cars. I can just as easily take my car to get it fixed now that I'm single, as I could take it to get it fixed while I was married. Michelle: No, it's not just as easy. It's so much easier Kimberly: so m- that's a good point. So much easier. Yes, so much easier 00:41:46.000 --> 43:32.000 Ask yourself if it's worth it Michelle: So this is a fundamental question. All the stuff you have to put up with, the hours that you put into ideating this scheme and initiating this scheme, are you getting enough out of that relationship to make that worthwhile? Kimberly: Ask yourself the question. That's, that's really insightful. Ask yourself the question. Don't just assume that, that you can tactic your way into making it work Michelle: Maybe you can, but why? W- are you getting something out of it? That's, that's really Kimberly: That, then it's Michelle: the main crux of it, Kimberly: Yeah, Michelle: right? Are they failing to get Kimberly: maybe you have fewer arguments that way, but is this a relationship that's fulfilling to either one of you? If, if, if you're having to create tactics to counteract their tactics, like this is not, this is not war games. And if it's war games, Michelle: Not worth it Kimberly: it might be time, it might be time to, to, to put, put up the white flag and walk away. Michelle: If you're married, if Kimberly: hard. I know it's hard. It's hard, it's hard, it's hard, and there's a million excuses, a million reasons. But if you feel like you need to bring the baby to the bathroom with you because there's some reason why leaving your baby with the husband doesn't make sense, you've really gotta start asking yourself the question, is this worth it? Michelle: And if the answer is yes, it is worth it, and your man is a good man, good on you, good on him, and make sure he's telling his friends how to be a good man