Ep 44 Super League 360 - RLWC Week 3 Review! England OUT!의 전체 녹취록

Point. And the match of the weekend, 38 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:03.040 depending on who you talk to, was either that game 39 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:07.620 or Tonga 20, Samoa 18. Both those games were at 40 00:02:07.780 --> 00:02:12.389 Combank Stadium. I'll just go to the women's while I'm 41 00:02:12.430 --> 00:02:18.590 on a roll. Just allow the website to switch over 42 00:02:18.629 --> 00:02:19.830 to the women's game. 43 00:02:21.710 --> 00:02:22.210 Last week. 44 00:02:23.050 --> 00:02:26.750 The Welsh women were the first team to score a 45 00:02:26.770 --> 00:02:31.020 try against Australia in the tournament. The problem was that 46 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:37.099 Australia had got 124 points and Wales only managed six. 47 00:02:37.180 --> 00:02:40.810 New Zealand fought it. Papua New Guinea, 12. So Wales 48 00:02:40.870 --> 00:02:44.090 and PNG both out of the tournament now, I think. 49 00:02:44.610 --> 00:02:45.189 Fiji, 54. 50 00:02:45.189 --> 00:02:51.289 France, 6. and England 6, Samoa 24. So both English 51 00:02:51.310 --> 00:02:54.909 teams going home. Look, we're going to really delve into 52 00:02:55.289 --> 00:02:58.180 England a little bit later, but I think the games 53 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:03.039 that we probably should give a good review to, well, 54 00:03:03.139 --> 00:03:06.599 first of all, France and Lebanon. What a finish to 55 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:11.340 that game. You know, John, I posted on my Facebook, 56 00:03:11.379 --> 00:03:14.370 Rugby League Coach, I posted, well done France, and put 57 00:03:14.430 --> 00:03:18.629 the France flag on a Rugby League ball. and I 58 00:03:18.669 --> 00:03:21.050 was on the phone to my dad, and all of 59 00:03:21.110 --> 00:03:23.409 a sudden I saw these bunker signs coming up on 60 00:03:23.449 --> 00:03:28.169 the screen, and it was about the obstruction, not obstruction, 61 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:32.099 whatever you want to call it, and it ruled that 62 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:34.659 out for France, and it's a rule that's not in 63 00:03:34.699 --> 00:03:38.259 Super League, but it is in the ping-pong rugby league 64 00:03:38.539 --> 00:03:43.969 in the NRL. And then the try that Lebanon ended 65 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:48.439 up scoring... France were rushing through the set, I think, 66 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:52.139 because half-time of extra time was about to happen, and 67 00:03:52.180 --> 00:03:55.159 he kicked the ball straight into the breadbasket of a 68 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:59.699 Lebanese player who went over to score. So, fantastic finish, 69 00:04:00.060 --> 00:04:03.789 and it really warmed the crowd up for the main game. Yeah, 70 00:04:03.909 --> 00:04:06.620 I think we all saw this game a couple of 71 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:08.740 weeks ago coming. It would really be a very even 72 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:12.180 contest because, obviously, Lebanon and France have been beaten by 73 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:14.979 all the other sides, much more evenly matched. 74

00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:17.120 And I thought, looking at how. 75 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:19.470 Compared to the drubbings that France have gotten in their 76 00:04:19.509 --> 00:04:24.009 games and how more competitive Lebanon have been, particularly against Tonga, 77 00:04:24.490 --> 00:04:25.990 I thought, oh, Lebanon win, but. 78 00:04:25.930 --> 00:04:27.949 It'll be a really tough game. And, you know, it's 79 00:04:27.970 --> 00:04:28.290 a bit of the. 80 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:31.720 Previous colonial rivalry, isn't it? You know, France used to 81 00:04:31.740 --> 00:04:35.120 be a top power in the Middle East. But, yeah, 82 00:04:35.189 --> 00:04:38.290 this was... I mean, people will always say, oh, we 83 00:04:38.350 --> 00:04:40.569 only need, like, a five-team World Cup now. We need, 84 00:04:40.689 --> 00:04:44.069 you know, Australia, New Zealand, Samoa Tonga and England and 85 00:04:44.089 --> 00:04:44.769 get rid of all the rest. 86 00:04:44.810 --> 00:04:45.329 But this is. 87 00:04:45.910 --> 00:04:47.750 You know, we want more competitive games like this, and 88 00:04:47.769 --> 00:04:51.490 this was fantastic. I really feel for Arthur Morgue from 89 00:04:51.829 --> 00:04:52.529 hero to villain. 90 00:04:53.110 --> 00:04:55.709 I mean... Straight into Abbas Miski. 91 00:04:56.129 --> 00:04:59.230 And it's actually quite a crazy story with Abbas Miski 92 00:04:59.250 --> 00:05:03.319 because he played in the grand final for Wigan last 93 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:06.680 year and then had a bad injury and then, because 94 00:05:06.740 --> 00:05:09.740 of salary cut reasons, was basically deregistered by Wigan. I 95 00:05:09.740 --> 00:05:12.490 think he played a few reserve games. Not played really 96 00:05:12.550 --> 00:05:15.050 all year. And he's also a winger and he was 97 00:05:15.069 --> 00:05:19.730 playing the back row for Lebanon. So, you know, his 98 00:05:19.769 --> 00:05:23.449 year ended on a high, but... Yeah, great, great entertainment. 99 00:05:23.490 --> 00:05:25.370 And I think it just set up, also obviously it 100 00:05:25.389 --> 00:05:26.949 was part of a triple header, set up what was 101 00:05:26.970 --> 00:05:28.189 to come with Samara and Tonga. 102 00:05:28.709 --> 00:05:31.120 Now, I was wrong. Fiji are still in the Women's 103 00:05:31.149 --> 00:05:33.379 World Cup. We'll get to the games next week, a 104 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:37.379 bit later on in the podcast. But in the women's round, 105 00:05:37.459 --> 00:05:41.480 we at least had the opposition scoring some tries this week. 106 00:05:41.500 --> 00:05:46.259 So France got one against Fiji. Papua New Guinea got two. 107 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.079 They got 12 points against France. against New Zealand and 108 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:53.500 Wales scored one against Wales and partied like it was 1999. 109 00:05:53.500 --> 00:06:03.310 I guess with our England hat on, we'll leave the 110 00:06:03.579 --> 00:06:06.000 talk about the state of English rugby league until we've 111 00:06:06.050 --> 00:06:08.509 spoken about the Samoa and Tonga game. Because what I 112 00:06:08.529 --> 00:06:12.850 must say, John, is as passionate and as upset and 113 00:06:13.350 --> 00:06:17.790 fired up as I am about the England game, team 114 00:06:18.069 --> 00:06:23.209 going home from the World Cup early that's literally matched 115 00:06:23.269 --> 00:06:26.149 by how happy I am to see two other sides 116 00:06:26.529 --> 00:06:29.430 in the mix and I've used the term already on 117 00:06:29.509 --> 00:06:32.550 one podcast this week that the tectonic place of International 118 00:06:32.589 --> 00:06:36.629 Rugby League have literally shifted this weekend the old century 119 00:06:37.350 --> 00:06:42.079 has been shoved back into fifth so a bit like 120 00:06:42.100 --> 00:06:44.139 the USA and China if you like and the new 121 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:50.079 century Samoa and Tonga emphatically, I wouldn't say arrived on Sunday, 122 00:06:50.139 --> 00:06:55.379 but really rammed in the nail, I think, into the coffin. 123 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:00.279 Yeah, I mean, I would say Tonga arrived in 2017, 124 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:04.500 didn't they? That was when they obviously had Tamalolo, David 125 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:09.000 Fafida and Manu Ma was the defections. And obviously they 126 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:12.379 beat New Zealand for the first time. Fiji beat New Zealand. 127 00:07:12.420 --> 00:07:14.279 That was a great World Cup, I remember it fondly. 128 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:17.860 And they had that semi-final... against England and Auckland, which is, 129 00:07:18.139 --> 00:07:21.610 you know, outstanding. And then they backed that up in 130 00:07:21.610 --> 00:07:23.649 2019 when Tonga beat Great Britain for the first time. 131 00:07:23.689 --> 00:07:25.910 They beat the Kangaroos for the first time in New Zealand. 132 00:07:26.230 --> 00:07:29.370 I was there for that again at Eden Park. Fantastic moments. 133 00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:32.949 And then Samoa backed that up, didn't they, in 2022 134 00:07:32.949 --> 00:07:35.290 when they beat England and made the World Cup final. 135 00:07:35.329 --> 00:07:38.199 So I think it's just built on what we've seen 136 00:07:38.220 --> 00:07:41.379 the last nine years. But you are right, that contest... 137 00:07:43.100 --> 00:07:45.420 I said, you know, the brutality and the physicality, I think, 138 00:07:45.459 --> 00:07:49.279 was surpassing Origin. And some English person got a little 139 00:07:49.300 --> 00:07:51.600 bit arced up because I, you know, Origin is the 140 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:55.339 point of reference for Australians. But Origin has been, I mean, 141 00:07:55.379 --> 00:07:58.579 since it started, and you can disagree with me, obviously, being, 142 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:01.740 you know, a Lions England fan, but it has surpassed 143 00:08:01.779 --> 00:08:02.560 the Ashes and. 144 00:08:02.579 --> 00:08:05.560 You know, the

Australian Premier Games. Nobody knows about the 145 00:08:05.620 --> 00:08:10.379 Ashes now. And last year didn't help. I mean, the 146 00:08:10.589 --> 00:08:12.879 Aussies weren't interested in the Ashes last year, I'll tell 147 00:08:12.899 --> 00:08:13.579 you that for nothing. 148 00:08:14.540 --> 00:08:17.660 But that contest just had everything, didn't it? I mean, 149 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:21.550 the atmosphere. I was watching on TV in Bangkok. The 150 00:08:21.629 --> 00:08:26.310 atmosphere was going through everything, the physicality, the power, the skill, 151 00:08:26.329 --> 00:08:29.670 the turns, the passion. You know, you could see people 152 00:08:29.689 --> 00:08:32.409 were saying, oh, you know, these teams don't have anything 153 00:08:32.429 --> 00:08:35.090 to play for because they're already through. They were desperate. 154 00:08:35.110 --> 00:08:36.629 They were dying out on the field there. They were 155 00:08:36.669 --> 00:08:40.340 giving it everything. And that was, yeah, it was one 156 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:43.700 of the best games I think I've ever seen. I mean. 157 00:08:45.789 --> 00:08:49.399 It was okay. It was a good event. 158 00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:53.940 My first thought vis-a-vis the ground, I thought they could 159 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:55.000 have filled that twice over. 160 00:08:55.539 --> 00:08:58.509 So I thought that was a missed opportunity. That was, 161 00:08:58.929 --> 00:09:01.549 they just, I spoke to, sorry to interrupt, I just 162 00:09:01.570 --> 00:09:04.529 spoke to someone at the IRL on Friday at Wynn 163 00:09:04.549 --> 00:09:09.419 Stadium and, yeah, I think the organisers thought conservatively, you know, 164 00:09:09.460 --> 00:09:11.220 let's try and fill out combat. But you're right, they 165 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:12.779 should have had that at Allianz and they would have 166 00:09:12.820 --> 00:09:17.850 sold that out. Or Suncorp. Or Suncorp. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. 167 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:19.529 They would, they would, absolutely. 168 00:09:19.710 --> 00:09:21.490 Yeah, yeah. And I think when you add in all. 169 00:09:22.110 --> 00:09:25.509 Also, the Lebanon-France game, how big the Lebanese diaspora in 170 00:09:25.690 --> 00:09:26.490 Western Sydney is. 171 00:09:27.009 --> 00:09:30.149 But, yeah, it's one of those things, though. 172 00:09:30.169 --> 00:09:32.149 I think when you see a sold-out stadium and all 173 00:09:32.169 --> 00:09:34.610 the flags and everything, it makes you want to go 174 00:09:34.690 --> 00:09:36.230 to the next game, doesn't it? Because it's FOMO. 175 00:09:36.590 --> 00:09:40.990 It's fear of missing out. It was a good event, singing, 176 00:09:41.070 --> 00:09:43.470 et cetera. In terms of the physicality, I think it's 177 00:09:43.509 --> 00:09:45.529 only true with the players that can tell us about that, 178 00:09:45.580 --> 00:09:49.100 how that felt out there. The football is different because. 179 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:55.190 Number

one, it's international football. Number two, because it's rep football, 180 00:09:55.870 --> 00:09:57.970 that you will feel some of the physicality a little 181 00:09:57.990 --> 00:10:00.360 bit more. Plus the Salmon and Tongan. packs are a 182 00:10:00.379 --> 00:10:02.500 little bit heavier than your average pack as well. So 183 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:06.919 they're going to be bashing lumps out of each other, 184 00:10:06.970 --> 00:10:11.929 and they certainly did. Thirdly, about it being one of 185 00:10:11.970 --> 00:10:13.909 the best games and stuff like that, I mean, I 186 00:10:13.950 --> 00:10:15.490 don't even know if it was the best game on 187 00:10:15.529 --> 00:10:18.309 that day, quite frankly, because of the one that was 188 00:10:18.350 --> 00:10:23.379 on before. particularly the way it ended. When I think 189 00:10:23.419 --> 00:10:26.259 of World Cups, I think of, well, first of all, 190 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:31.129 the 1992 World Cup final, Great Britain, Australia. I think of, 191 00:10:31.570 --> 00:10:34.850 in my lifetime this is, I think of the 1995 semi-final, 192 00:10:35.210 --> 00:10:38.230 New Zealand and Australia that went to golden point. I 193 00:10:38.269 --> 00:10:43.220 think of the 2000 semi-final, Wales and Australia, where Lee 194 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:47.779 Breers was carving them up. I think of the 2008 195 00:10:47.779 --> 00:10:50.299 Grand Final, the World Cup Final. And I think of 196 00:10:50.340 --> 00:10:50.879 that game. 197 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:53.139 Billy Smiten's past, you know. 198 00:10:53.419 --> 00:10:56.820 And I think of the 2017 semi-final, Tonga and England. 199 00:10:57.350 --> 00:11:00.710 And in tests, I don't think... I don't know if 200 00:11:00.769 --> 00:11:02.710 in my life I will ever see a better game 201 00:11:02.730 --> 00:11:06.789 than the second test of 1990, Great Britain versus Australia 202 00:11:06.809 --> 00:11:09.350 at Old Trafford. And the skill level was definitely higher 203 00:11:09.409 --> 00:11:10.269 in that one because. 204 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:15.759 We forget about this when we watch such a game 205 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:18.899 of such intensity. There was an awful lot of errors 206 00:11:18.950 --> 00:11:22.549 in this Samoa and Tonga game. And also, Tonga had 207 00:11:22.629 --> 00:11:25.610 more or less put them to bed, and then Samoa 208 00:11:25.629 --> 00:11:28.789 just came back at the end. So all I'm doing 209 00:11:28.870 --> 00:11:34.029 is giving some devil's advocate to that. It was fantastic. 210 00:11:34.090 --> 00:11:37.090 I was glued to it. And it's fantastic that we're 211 00:11:37.110 --> 00:11:39.990 going into a World Cup semi-final period now where we 212 00:11:40.009 --> 00:11:44.169 literally don't know who's going to win. And we'll talk 213 00:11:44.230 --> 00:11:50.309 about that soon. Anyway, this podcast goes directly into England, mate. 214 00:11:50.409 --> 00:11:52.740 And I think we've got some English things

to talk about. 215 00:11:52.789 --> 00:11:56.169 But just business lastly, I mean, I'm sure you've seen, 216 00:11:56.220 --> 00:11:58.539 you know, you live in an area where there's a lot. 217 00:11:58.419 --> 00:12:01.620 Of Polynesian teams. 218 00:12:02.610 --> 00:12:07.870 In New Zealand, in Queensland, in Sydney, in Utah, in California, 219 00:12:08.230 --> 00:12:13.350 of Tongans and Samoans celebrating. I mean, for me, this 220 00:12:13.389 --> 00:12:16.889 just sort of shows these two nations against each other 221 00:12:16.990 --> 00:12:20.120 is a separate concept, like the Ashlands, like Origin, that 222 00:12:20.149 --> 00:12:24.120 has commercial ability. And we need to... Like, obviously, they're 223 00:12:24.139 --> 00:12:25.779 going to play in the Pac Championships next year, which 224 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:27.740 is great, but we need to make the most of 225 00:12:27.820 --> 00:12:33.700 it because I think it's proper... box office stuff and 226 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:36.799 it can, you know, as a concept. But, like, the 227 00:12:36.820 --> 00:12:39.500 scenes in Utah and California, I mean, maybe we should 228 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.129 be looking to play, you know, they should play in 229 00:12:41.190 --> 00:12:43.929 a test in the United States because I think the 230 00:12:43.970 --> 00:12:46.490 fans are there to make it a success. 231 00:12:46.690 --> 00:12:49.250 And, you know, the other thing, John, I've seen as 232 00:12:49.309 --> 00:12:52.919 much on social media calling for Lebanon and France to 233 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:55.480 play a series regularly now as well. 234 00:12:55.659 --> 00:12:58.710 The thing about... Well, the thing about that is people 235 00:12:58.730 --> 00:13:00.860 forget they were supposed to play a series after the 236 00:13:00.899 --> 00:13:03.269 last World Cup. Lebanon was supposed to tour France for 237 00:13:03.309 --> 00:13:06.730 two tests. I can't remember if it was 23 or 238 00:13:06.730 --> 00:13:09.549 24 or even 25. I think it was 24, but 239 00:13:10.070 --> 00:13:13.149 that fell apart because of lack of money. Now, this 240 00:13:13.210 --> 00:13:15.210 is one of the things that people don't understand, particularly 241 00:13:15.250 --> 00:13:17.169 on social media. They're like, we should have a Six Nations. 242 00:13:17.230 --> 00:13:19.590 We have this. These things have got to pay for themselves. 243 00:13:19.629 --> 00:13:22.330 Like who, you know, the fans for some of these 244 00:13:22.549 --> 00:13:24.590 lower nations, let's be honest, that, you know, they're not 245 00:13:24.610 --> 00:13:28.250 going to get 20,000 people paying top dollar, but we 246 00:13:28.289 --> 00:13:30.649 need to help France and we need to help Lebanon. 247 00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:33.919 And I think that's a series of, a two-test series in, say, 248 00:13:33.940 --> 00:13:40.980 Toulouse and in Perpignan, that maybe the NRL can fund partially, 249 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:43.580 that would

be great for both those nations and I 250 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:47.919 think would be a fantastic contest as well. Okay. 251 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:52.460 Matthew sent a question. Matthew from England, who's now in 252 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:53.179 New Zealand. 253 00:13:53.659 --> 00:13:54.460 Hi, Lee, John. 254 00:13:54.620 --> 00:13:58.299 I'm writing this ahead of the Lebanon versus France and 255 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:03.750 Tonga versus Samoa games. Out of 15 group stage games, 256 00:14:03.830 --> 00:14:06.809 only England versus Tonga really felt like it meant something. 257 00:14:07.330 --> 00:14:10.929 So this was before the Tonga and Samoa and, ironically, 258 00:14:10.980 --> 00:14:11.879 before the two best games. 259 00:14:11.889 --> 00:14:14.419 But the first game, the first game, Australia and New 260 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:16.820 Zealand didn't make anything. I've not finished. I've not finished. 261 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:20.399 The opening game between New Zealand and Australia was purely 262 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.240 about seeding. The way the groups have ultimately panned out 263 00:14:24.940 --> 00:14:28.389 highlights yet another flaw in the system. It actually looks 264 00:14:28.429 --> 00:14:30.700 like it would be much better for either Tonga or 265 00:14:30.740 --> 00:14:34.759 Samoa to lose their upcoming match and intentionally finish lower 266 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.879 to avoid a New Zealand side that is playing well. 267 00:14:38.610 --> 00:14:41.350 The game will be a watered-down version of what should 268 00:14:41.389 --> 00:14:43.429 be a great game, he said. This was before the 269 00:14:43.470 --> 00:14:46.950 Tonga-Samoa game. And both sets of players would accept a 270 00:14:46.990 --> 00:14:49.539 loss in this match if it meant advancing to the final. 271 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:55.509 Don't kid yourself otherwise. The tournament design seemingly gave Australia 272 00:14:55.570 --> 00:14:58.950 and New Zealand an easy ride to the semi-finals by 273 00:14:59.009 --> 00:15:01.690 getting their hardest games out of the way first, allowing 274 00:15:01.730 --> 00:15:05.529 them to coast against two easier sides. Even though Australia 275 00:15:05.570 --> 00:15:08.100 made hard work of Fiji, they always look capable of 276 00:15:08.149 --> 00:15:12.179 seeing off a valiant, tiring Fijian side in the second half. 277 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:15.679 While I'm not too concerned that England are out, as 278 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:20.080 it means avoiding Australia in a predictable semi-final, I completely 279 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:23.409 see why fans are unhappy with the format. The historical 280 00:15:23.470 --> 00:15:28.070 inconsistencies are glaring. In 2017, Samoa advanced to the quarter-finals 281 00:15:28.750 --> 00:15:31.090 with just one point after losing to Tonga and New 282 00:15:31.149 --> 00:15:34.000 Zealand and scraping a draw against Scotland. This has got 283 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.940

to be the most undeserved advancement in World Cup history. 284 00:15:37.539 --> 00:15:41.240 In 2022, Samoa got hammered by England in the opener 285 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:45.620 but deservedly advanced by winning their next two games. This tournament, 286 00:15:45.769 --> 00:15:49.519 England has done exactly what Samoa did in 2022– and 287 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:51.779 what New Zealand did this year with two wins and 288 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:55.299 one loss, yet England has drawn the short straw. Looking 289 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.210 at the England, Tonga and Samoa group, most would call 290 00:15:58.230 --> 00:16:02.990 these match-ups 50-50. Well, I'm not in that group. Realistically, 291 00:16:03.070 --> 00:16:05.909 England had to beat Samoa to stand any genuine chance 292 00:16:05.950 --> 00:16:09.769 of progressing. England always needed to win three games to 293 00:16:09.809 --> 00:16:15.500 go through, a burden no other top team faced. The 294 00:16:15.529 --> 00:16:18.600 other week, Johnny yourself claimed Tonga had a harder path 295 00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:22.580 because they also had to play Samoa. But mathematically, Tonga 296 00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:25.279 had two chances to win a 50-50 game, giving them 297 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:28.919 a 75% chance of winning at least one. England and 298 00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:32.539 Samoa only had a 50% shot. Furthermore, defenders of this 299 00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:36.679 format claim it reduces blowout scores. It clearly hasn't. If 300 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:39.399 the players' union caps a tournament of five games, they 301 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.360 should just run a 12-team tournament with four groups of three. 302 00:16:43.149 --> 00:16:45.940 The top two advance to the quarterfinals and the bottom 303 00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:49.120 team goes home. That eliminates three weeks of predictable group 304 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:53.700 games and injects knockout jeopardy by week three. And it 305 00:16:53.740 --> 00:16:56.019 keeps the tournament to just five games. And let's not 306 00:16:56.059 --> 00:16:58.759 pretend that anyone really cares about the fact that Lebanon 307 00:16:58.779 --> 00:17:00.350 and France would only get two games. 308 00:17:01.929 --> 00:17:02.929 A question for John. 309 00:17:04.670 --> 00:17:07.690 The rise of Tonga and Sambola relies heavily on the 310 00:17:07.789 --> 00:17:12.549 NRL and the IRL. not tightening eligibility rules around state 311 00:17:12.589 --> 00:17:16.789 of origin and international reputation. If they revert to stricter rules, 312 00:17:16.869 --> 00:17:19.450 Tonga and Samoa will suffer on the field as players 313 00:17:19.490 --> 00:17:23.970 will likely chase the money and choose origin. What is 314 00:17:24.009 --> 00:17:26.170 the NRL, which claims to have all the money and 315 00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:29.339 know-how actually doing to help these nations? People talk about 316 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:34.000 hosting the three-test series in Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Auckland or Christchurch. 317 00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:36.779 Why not play them in Samoa and Tonga? Why isn't 318 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:40.450 the NRL investing in the infrastructure there? Instead, they are 319 00:17:40.569 --> 00:17:43.319 fannying around in Las Vegas. Rugby League in the US 320 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:46.759 is nowhere near taking off. The crowds there are just English, 321 00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:49.859 Australian and Kiwi tourists. A mate of mine went to 322 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.380 the Vegas games and said the locals had absolutely no 323 00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:55.380 idea what was going on. It's just a holiday for 324 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:59.210 existing fans, not genuine growth. It is much easier for 325 00:17:59.230 --> 00:18:01.329 the NRL to put on a show in Vegas and 326 00:18:01.349 --> 00:18:04.150 to do the gritty hard work of developing the game 327 00:18:04.190 --> 00:18:07.779 in the Pacific. Right now, the Tonga and Samoa National 328 00:18:07.819 --> 00:18:11.789 League teams are essentially just Australian stroke NZ heritage sides. 329 00:18:12.569 --> 00:18:15.950 That isn't true development. It's just hoping players choose heritage 330 00:18:16.029 --> 00:18:20.369 over money. Both nations are entirely relying on the Australian 331 00:18:20.990 --> 00:18:24.460 and Kiwi systems. England's development system might be struggling, but 332 00:18:24.779 --> 00:18:27.980 at least they actually have one. Now, there is another. 333 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:31.460 Question, but... Can you answer that one? Was that all 334 00:18:31.579 --> 00:18:33.579 one question or the first bit was just a rant? 335 00:18:33.660 --> 00:18:38.869 Well, he's put in a lot of his views. I 336 00:18:40.190 --> 00:18:42.509 wonder if he'd have shared some of those views after 337 00:18:42.529 --> 00:18:44.430 the results. And, you know, I'm not going to hammer 338 00:18:44.470 --> 00:18:48.849 him for now we're wise after the event. But, you know, 339 00:18:49.210 --> 00:18:52.980 the France and Lebanon game, for example, is certainly caught 340 00:18:53.019 --> 00:18:55.960 people's imagination. And the Tonga Samoa game did too and 341 00:18:55.980 --> 00:18:57.519 certainly looked like it meant something. 342 00:18:58.589 --> 00:19:01.210 Well, the thing is, Lee, I mean, I think people 343 00:19:01.230 --> 00:19:03.279 saying that the Samoa Tonga game was going to be 344 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.480 before it, obviously, was going to be a write-off for 345 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:10.170 a non-event. I clearly have no idea... about those two 346 00:19:10.210 --> 00:19:13.430 countries or about, you know, their players or what it 347 00:19:13.470 --> 00:19:17.259 means to them, their culture. You know, you can't fake 348 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.579 that kind of stuff. And, you know, you've worked with 349 00:19:20.619 --> 00:19:22.720 Poland and you've worked with the United States,

you've coached 350 00:19:22.740 --> 00:19:26.799 with those nations. Like, players aren't just there for the jolly. 351 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.059 I mean, you might get the odd player, but whether 352 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:32.680 they're representing their mum, their dad, their grandfather, whatever, they 353 00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:36.000 were born there, it means something to them. So I 354 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:39.940 think people need to... Maybe, well, just this individual maybe 355 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:40.589 needs to wake up. 356 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:44.799 It's not all about money. Look, I'm trying to remember. 357 00:19:44.819 --> 00:19:47.769 That was such a long post, what the exact question was. Well, 358 00:19:47.789 --> 00:19:50.480 I'm just going through to get the main points. I 359 00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:56.460 mean he talked about the games meaning something in terms 360 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.930 of outcomes I mean we're not a strong international sport 361 00:19:59.990 --> 00:20:02.289 so we have to manufacture things a little bit we're 362 00:20:02.309 --> 00:20:07.529 not so the tournament design seemingly gave Australia and New 363 00:20:07.569 --> 00:20:11.380 Zealand an easy ride to the semi-finals well Obviously, Matthew, 364 00:20:11.420 --> 00:20:13.700 you've got a short memory about what happens every time 365 00:20:13.779 --> 00:20:17.079 England hosts a tournament. 1995, designed to get England to 366 00:20:17.099 --> 00:20:23.200 the final. 2000, designed to get England to the final. 2013, 2022. 367 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:24.890 And the last two times, they didn't even get to 368 00:20:24.910 --> 00:20:28.230 the final. I was going to say... Three times, sorry. 369 00:20:29.109 --> 00:20:32.650 The last World Cup in England, they faced Samoa. They 370 00:20:32.690 --> 00:20:34.349 flogged in the first game and had easy games, and 371 00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:37.369 then they played PNG. And then they didn't even face 372 00:20:37.430 --> 00:20:39.769 Australia or New Zealand or Tonga in the whole tournament, 373 00:20:40.009 --> 00:20:41.230 and they still couldn't get to the final. 374 00:20:41.549 --> 00:20:42.890 So that's absolute nonsense. 375 00:20:43.750 --> 00:20:49.230 In 2013 and 2017, they placed Australia in the first game, 376 00:20:49.750 --> 00:20:51.309 but then got a second bite of the cherry and 377 00:20:51.349 --> 00:20:53.450 then had an easy path through to get to the final. 378 00:20:54.369 --> 00:20:56.569 And they didn't even make the final, obviously, in 2013. 379 00:20:56.549 --> 00:20:59.509 They lost. Unlucky to lose to New Zealand at Wembley. 380 00:21:00.049 --> 00:21:02.130 But we can talk about formats all. 381 00:21:02.009 --> 00:21:10.180 Day, but Tonga had to beat England and Samoa to 382 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:12.779 get through. If they'd lost both those games, they would 383 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:15.160 have been out. They had two tough games. We had one. 384 00:21:16.059 --> 00:21:20.619 And also, Samoa had a better points difference anyway, so 385 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:21.240 it's irrelevant. 386 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:26.119 The format is everyone knew it coming in. The RFL 387 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:29.680 knew it. Everything had to be from the England point 388 00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:32.859 of view on that first game. And we knew once 389 00:21:32.900 --> 00:21:36.029 they lost that game, it was pushing shit up the hill. 390 00:21:36.789 --> 00:21:39.890 And people can cry about formats and excuses and put 391 00:21:39.930 --> 00:21:43.049 excuse after excuse. But the simple reality is even if 392 00:21:43.089 --> 00:21:45.529 it even got through the semifinal, I did not see 393 00:21:45.569 --> 00:21:48.410 them being in Australia, New Zealand in the semifinal. So 394 00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:51.369 you can have a, disappointing semifinal exit or you can 395 00:21:51.390 --> 00:21:56.119 have a disappointing group exit. But that's the reality of 396 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:58.519 their exit is what it is. And I don't think 397 00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:00.339 it's a surprise to many people. If it is a 398 00:22:00.380 --> 00:22:03.000 surprise to some people, then they've clearly not been paying 399 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:05.680 attention for the last, well, I'd say a decade, but 400 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:07.759 you could probably say since what, the mid-90s. 401 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:12.869 He also asked the question vis-a-vis, the question was developing 402 00:22:12.890 --> 00:22:16.089 the infrastructure in Samoa and Tonga. And then he asked 403 00:22:16.130 --> 00:22:19.559 a bit later, how many Tongan bone players have Tonga 404 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:22.519 developed since 2017? 405 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.099 I mean, that's a fair point. I'm not disputing that. 406 00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:30.799 They are heritage nations. When you understand, and I've not 407 00:22:30.819 --> 00:22:33.420 been to Tonga or Samoa, but having lived in Australia, 408 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:36.369 I do understand a little bit about the P6. These 409 00:22:36.569 --> 00:22:40.809 are very poor nations where job opportunities are rare, employment 410 00:22:40.829 --> 00:22:44.269 opportunities are rare, and people leave generally to Australia and 411 00:22:44.309 --> 00:22:45.869 New Zealand for a better life. 412 00:22:45.750 --> 00:22:46.269 For their kids. 413 00:22:46.289 --> 00:22:49.589 Yeah, yeah. And they also, they moved to America, they 414 00:22:49.630 --> 00:22:51.829 moved to other places as well. But obviously, Australia and 415 00:22:51.849 --> 00:22:55.809 New Zealand is closer. Now, in terms of the development 416 00:22:55.829 --> 00:22:59.990 of those nations, I think part of the 600 million pounds, sorry, 417 00:22:59.990 --> 00:23:03.829 600 million dollars that Anthony Albanese, the Australian Prime Minister, 418 00:23:03.849 --> 00:23:06.099 has given for the Papua New Guinea chiefs, a big

419 00:23:06.150 --> 00:23:09.759 portion of that is going to development in Samoa, Tonga 420 00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:10.319 and Fiji. 421 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:11.779 It's a whole Pacific program. 422 00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:14.440 Some of the Tongan players are actually born in Tonga now. 423 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:15.779 They may not have been in 2017, but some of 424 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:18.900 them are. Or some of them were born in Auckland 425 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:19.890 to Tongan parents. 426 00:23:20.809 --> 00:23:23.289 Connie Harrell was one who was born in Tonga, raised 427 00:23:23.329 --> 00:23:26.049 in Tonga, moved to New Zealand, I think, to play 428 00:23:26.130 --> 00:23:28.490 schoolboy rugby union in, I think it was in Auckland. 429 00:23:29.069 --> 00:23:30.869 Some of them were born on the island and actually 430 00:23:30.890 --> 00:23:35.200 put Auckland as where they're born for one reason or another. 431 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:37.880 And the other point about playing games in Samarra and Tonga, 432 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:44.180 they don't have stadiums that are adequate for professional internationals 433 00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:48.029 of size. That's the simple reality. If they did, rugby 434 00:23:48.109 --> 00:23:50.490 union would be playing test there. Rugby league would be 435 00:23:50.509 --> 00:23:54.369 playing test there. So it's about channeling the diaspora and 436 00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:56.970 they are just as passionate, whether they live in Logan 437 00:23:57.089 --> 00:24:00.579 or Mount Druid or in Christchurch is if they live in, 438 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:04.700 you know, Appiah. But yeah, I think some people fail 439 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:06.779 to understand that, particularly in the Northern hemisphere, they don't 440 00:24:07.099 --> 00:24:10.900 get the concept and of the heritage point. And look, 441 00:24:11.910 --> 00:24:13.549 The heritage thing, you might not like it, but it's 442 00:24:13.569 --> 00:24:14.609 not really about where. 443 00:24:14.470 --> 00:24:15.069 You were born. 444 00:24:15.170 --> 00:24:18.480 You know, if you're– Lee, if your parents, both your 445 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.960 parents are Tongan and you're raised in Brisbane, you can 446 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:25.079 be– this is the Jason Tamalo example. 447 00:24:25.099 --> 00:24:26.440 Obviously, it happened to him in New Zealand. 448 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:29.670 He was raised in a Tongan household, and he feels– 449 00:24:29.859 --> 00:24:31.799 he played for New Zealand. He represented New Zealand, but 450 00:24:31.819 --> 00:24:34.099 he feels more Tongan than he does Kiwi. I think 451 00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:36.539 I've said this story before when I was Poland coach. 452 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:40.240 Because the Polish border– well, first of all, Poland didn't 453 00:24:40.299 --> 00:24:42.990 even exist for a while. before World War I. 454 00:24:42.980 --> 00:24:44.720 It was part of the Russian Empire, yeah.

Right. 455 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.960 And then, but during World War II, when some of 456 00:24:49.059 --> 00:24:53.579 the grandparents of the Polish players were born, that point 457 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:56.180 on the map would have been under Hitler's control. 458 00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:57.579 Yep, yep. 459 00:24:57.819 --> 00:25:00.500 Or Russian control. So it was technically Russian or German. 460 00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:04.700 And we literally had to go through the hoops to 461 00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:05.720 get them qualified. 462 00:25:06.369 --> 00:25:12.089 Now, these people were Polish top to toe. 463 00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:19.450 But due to political issues and geopolitical issues, somebody else 464 00:25:19.470 --> 00:25:22.250 was on their doorstep and on their country at the time. So, 465 00:25:22.869 --> 00:25:26.490 you know, it's not a black and white scenario. I 466 00:25:26.509 --> 00:25:28.779 must say, though, Matthew did say at the end of this, 467 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:30.700 he said, thank you for taking the time to read this. 468 00:25:30.740 --> 00:25:33.579 I really enjoy the podcast. In my opinion, this is 469 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:38.039 the most in-depth analysis podcast of the game. And I 470 00:25:38.059 --> 00:25:39.059 thank you for that, Matthew. 471 00:25:39.099 --> 00:25:39.529 And also. 472 00:25:40.250 --> 00:25:43.329 on that note I mean thanks Matthew yeah I mean 473 00:25:43.390 --> 00:25:47.130 our answer even knowing that we've both sort of gone 474 00:25:47.170 --> 00:25:51.769 back at Matthew there haven't we Matthew can. 475 00:25:51.670 --> 00:25:54.269 Have his opinion and he's explained it well and I 476 00:25:54.289 --> 00:25:56.130 agree with some of his points I disagree with some 477 00:25:56.170 --> 00:25:59.670 others but that's fine good debate honest debate is what 478 00:25:59.690 --> 00:26:01.049 we want don't we Lee so. 479 00:26:00.869 --> 00:26:03.339 Thank you for Matthew we do keep sending them mate 480 00:26:04.650 --> 00:26:08.480 We'll do deeper England analysis soon, but we've got some 481 00:26:08.539 --> 00:26:11.119 questions and they might help us do that analysis. 482 00:26:12.380 --> 00:26:20.420 We do. First one from Instagram from Matt Boyson. He says, 483 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:23.099 Sunday we had two games with drama. What World Cup 484 00:26:23.140 --> 00:26:26.420 format would you have so we get more of that? 485 00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:30.470 The Pacific Championships seem to do it pretty well with 486 00:26:30.490 --> 00:26:32.769 the two levels. Or is more a case of being 487 00:26:32.829 --> 00:26:35.930 patient and stop playing with the format too much? That's 488 00:26:35.950 --> 00:26:38.569 a great question. Great point from Matt. I would say 489 00:26:39.009 --> 00:26:42.450 we need to be more patient. I don't think we 490 00:26:42.470 --> 00:26:46.890 need to tinker with formats every tournament. You know what 491 00:26:47.009 --> 00:26:48.140 I mean? 16 to 10 to 12 to 16, 18. 492 00:26:48.130 --> 00:26:50.839 I'll tell you what, John. 493 00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:58.720 If we had a Super League 360 bingo card this year, Unleashed. 494 00:26:57.220 --> 00:27:00.920 Would be on it. The NRL.... 495 00:27:01.970 --> 00:27:05.190 Deal with super league would be on it and now 496 00:27:05.250 --> 00:27:08.029 format format would be on it i think so. 497 00:27:08.769 --> 00:27:11.289 No look i i think um we do need to 498 00:27:11.309 --> 00:27:13.559 be patient i think part of the problem with international 499 00:27:13.579 --> 00:27:16.359 rugby league or when rugby league fans talk about is 500 00:27:16.430 --> 00:27:19.039 rugby league is a club driven game whether it be 501 00:27:19.059 --> 00:27:20.960 in or in the nrl or in super league we 502 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:24.460 both know that And everyone wants international rugby league to 503 00:27:24.500 --> 00:27:27.480 be like rugby union or the FIFA World Cup or cricket. 504 00:27:27.940 --> 00:27:30.599 But as you said earlier, which people seem to forget, 505 00:27:30.619 --> 00:27:34.089 we are a very small sport internationally. We're a tiny sport. 506 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:36.549 So we need to walk before we can run. And 507 00:27:37.289 --> 00:27:42.269 obviously we need to support Lebanon, France, England, Cook Islands, 508 00:27:42.309 --> 00:27:49.049 all these nations. And those below it, I think just importantly, Greece, Germany, Scotland, 509 00:27:49.109 --> 00:27:50.609 et cetera, et cetera, Jamaica. Yeah. 510 00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:54.910 Honestly, all these people talking about the format, I implore 511 00:27:54.950 --> 00:27:57.009 you to listen to the Rugby League History podcast. 512 00:27:57.170 --> 00:27:59.720 There's the plug number one. 513 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:05.359 Because we've charted the World Cup since 1954. The second 514 00:28:05.420 --> 00:28:07.799 tournament was a different format to the first one. The 515 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.140 third one was a different format to the first two. 516 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:16.920 It's literally changed that many times since 1954. Sometimes we're 517 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.250 four years apart, sometimes eight years apart, sometimes five years apart. 518 00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:23.470 Sometimes there was a final. Other times there wasn't a final. 519 00:28:23.609 --> 00:28:26.890 Other times they hadn't planned a final and then went, oh, shit, 520 00:28:26.950 --> 00:28:28.690 we should put a final in now to try and 521 00:28:28.710 --> 00:28:33.279 make some more money. Two tournaments, they actually played as 522 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.819 part of test series. So a selected test in the 523 00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:41.240 series was counted double bubble for points for the World Cup. 524 00:28:41.420 --> 00:28:45.250 We've had 16, we've had 10, we've had 14. We've 525 00:28:45.269 --> 00:28:46.250 had repetition. 526 00:28:46.329 --> 00:28:48.190 All these

formats changes. 527 00:28:48.210 --> 00:28:51.349 They've all been trying to Apart from horses, it's the 528 00:28:51.369 --> 00:28:53.470 only time I've ever seen the word rep a charge 529 00:28:53.589 --> 00:28:54.049 in one of. 530 00:28:54.009 --> 00:28:58.910 The Rugby League World Cups. The point is they're trying 531 00:28:58.930 --> 00:29:02.130 to find a format or a structure that commercially makes 532 00:29:02.150 --> 00:29:05.450 sense and doesn't cost them money. And that, at the 533 00:29:05.470 --> 00:29:07.529 end of the day, is a big point. People forget 534 00:29:07.630 --> 00:29:12.730 about the money aspect. Players need to be paid. They 535 00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:15.000 need hotels. Coaches need to be paid, et cetera. All 536 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.339 the people, the staff involved. 537 00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:17.000 Sorry, sorry. 538 00:29:20.259 --> 00:29:22.119 I was going to say we are a financially weak 539 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:25.819 sport and there isn't a huge, but the key point 540 00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:27.599 I think that I want to lastly want to make 541 00:29:27.619 --> 00:29:29.940 about this format and this world cup is you look 542 00:29:29.980 --> 00:29:32.269 at the TV ratings, I think it was almost 2 543 00:29:32.269 --> 00:29:36.289 million for Samoa Tonga and like international rugby league in 544 00:29:36.329 --> 00:29:38.769 Australia now or in the Pacific is thriving. So it 545 00:29:38.809 --> 00:29:41.740 is making money. So, this World Cup will make money, 546 00:29:41.859 --> 00:29:45.140 and then that money will go towards development around the world. 547 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:50.240 So that's the key. Well, that is the idea, yeah. 548 00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:54.339 The people who are worried about the format, there's two 549 00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:57.460 things I would encourage you to be more angry about. 550 00:29:58.380 --> 00:30:01.400 Number one, because the tournament was reduced to 10 teams, 551 00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:03.170 there was an awful lot of countries with just a 552 00:30:03.190 --> 00:30:05.650 stroke of a pen who had to give up on 553 00:30:05.710 --> 00:30:09.990 any plans to grow as a nation. So your Jamaica's, 554 00:30:10.009 --> 00:30:16.150 your Greece, your Ireland's, your Wales, your Scotland's, your so 555 00:30:16.170 --> 00:30:20.579 on and so forth. Secondly, I think the performance of 556 00:30:20.630 --> 00:30:27.519 some nations like Lebanon, France and Fiji, They've clearly gone backwards. 557 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:32.460 PNG have clearly gone backwards from previous tournaments. So, I mean, 558 00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:35.039 I'll just take one result. I know Fiji did okay 559 00:30:35.059 --> 00:30:37.859 against Australia, but the last two tournaments ago, they beat 560 00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:41.779 New Zealand. And on Saturday, they didn't even get close 561 00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:42.660 to scoring a try. 562 00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:44.359 I think, yeah. 563 00:30:45.420 --> 00:30:48.539 I was just going to say briefly, I don't disagree 564 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:50.140 with you, but I think part of that is also 565 00:30:50.180 --> 00:30:52.630 the spread of talent. And when you have, two to 566 00:30:52.690 --> 00:30:55.230 three key players who aren't available, like P & G, 567 00:30:55.319 --> 00:31:00.059 it was Lachlan Lamb, Alex Johnson and one other, and Fiji, 568 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:02.420 it was Jerome Buller and Campbell. 569 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:03.200 Greer who kick out. 570 00:31:03.460 --> 00:31:05.700 They're in a World Cup and they're not in the 571 00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:08.920 first World Cup that they've ever been in. If things 572 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:12.799 were done right, they should be more Ville Army kick-outs 573 00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:16.329 ready to replace them, right? So, you know, teams like 574 00:31:16.410 --> 00:31:18.069 Fiji who've been in the World Cup since 1995, P 575 00:31:18.049 --> 00:31:23.329 & G since 1995, They're clearly not getting better at 576 00:31:23.369 --> 00:31:26.230 the minute. France, who've been in the World Cup since 1954, 577 00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:33.559 I mean, their performance on Sunday has rescued their tournament. 578 00:31:33.940 --> 00:31:37.180 Even though they lost, we were looking at the worst 579 00:31:37.220 --> 00:31:39.039 France have ever been in a Rugby League World Cup 580 00:31:39.740 --> 00:31:44.990 before Sunday. And it showed the patient has got a pulse, basically. 581 00:31:45.769 --> 00:31:51.230 Le patient. So that's what I'd implore everybody to be 582 00:31:51.269 --> 00:31:54.210 more angry about, really, because there's a lot of nations 583 00:31:54.250 --> 00:31:57.960 didn't even get the chance. And you know why some 584 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:01.039 of these nations haven't improved, because there's never a steady 585 00:32:01.140 --> 00:32:05.259 tournament format. There's never a steady rotation of tournaments. They're 586 00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:08.609 not every four years like they should be or five years. 587 00:32:08.690 --> 00:32:12.819 It's never stable. And the ones that were there have 588 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:16.940 clearly declined across the board, including England. Including England. 589 00:32:16.980 --> 00:32:19.819 Let's not. Let's not. Let's not. But we're not going 590 00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:23.299 to hide from that, are we, John? No, we're not. 591 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:30.710 Questions on Facebook. Two questions. One from Sam O'Sagada. Apologies, 592 00:32:30.769 --> 00:32:34.109 I've probably pronounced his Irish surname wrong. Why didn't any 593 00:32:34.170 --> 00:32:36.950 Super League players play in the Celtic Cup? That's a 594 00:32:36.970 --> 00:32:39.910 great question. I don't know 100% sure, but I did 595 00:32:39.950 --> 00:32:41.809 see the Ireland coach come out and make some claims 596 00:32:41.849 --> 00:32:43.069 about clubs preventing them. 597

00:32:43.809 --> 00:32:44.609 That would be probably mine. 598 00:32:44.630 --> 00:32:46.009 That would not surprise me. 599 00:32:46.029 --> 00:32:48.839 Yeah, that happens every international year. 600 00:32:48.859 --> 00:32:54.759 The Celtic Cup was played between Ireland, Scotland, and I 601 00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:55.839 think possibly Wales. 602 00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:58.200 Yeah, it's been going on for the last couple of weeks. 603 00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:02.420 But every international series, you see clubs, you know, a 604 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:05.750 player might have a bit of a dodgy hammy or something. 605 00:33:05.809 --> 00:33:06.069 Oh, look. 606 00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:10.680 In a World Cup year as well, I mean, they're 607 00:33:10.700 --> 00:33:14.059 chasing the tail, I think. In a World Cup year, 608 00:33:15.059 --> 00:33:16.880 players will try and play in the World Cup or 609 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:18.029 have a rest, basically. 610 00:33:18.740 --> 00:33:20.789 No, well, I think clubs, you know, they do. I 611 00:33:20.809 --> 00:33:23.410 know this for a fact. Clubs pressure players not to 612 00:33:23.609 --> 00:33:28.089 make themselves available. And that is a sad reality. Question 613 00:33:28.109 --> 00:33:31.880 from Chris Macy. After the dramatic end to the France-Lebanon game, 614 00:33:32.299 --> 00:33:33.980 should the powers that be try to arrange a test 615 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:35.940 series in France between them both at the same time, 616 00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:37.099 the Kiwis over in England? 617 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:37.880 Yes. 618 00:33:37.900 --> 00:33:39.759 The story is there, and they seem to be at 619 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:41.200 a similar level, so you'd hope the games would be 620 00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:43.730 close and entertaining. We've pretty much gone over that, and 621 00:33:43.809 --> 00:33:48.049 we agree. We, we, we. I would say hopefully not 622 00:33:48.069 --> 00:33:51.230 at the same time because that way I could go 623 00:33:51.250 --> 00:33:53.799 to all the games, could fly over. For the John 624 00:33:53.819 --> 00:33:56.980 Davidson Cup. Yes, the John Davidson Cup. But, yeah, no, 625 00:33:57.019 --> 00:33:57.980 I agree, Chris. 626 00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:58.559 That would be. 627 00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:01.759 Fantastic to see. Hopefully we do see that. And we 628 00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:07.069 have got a load of questions on Twitter. Ben Blackwell, 629 00:34:07.490 --> 00:34:09.489 what positives can we take from this World Cup and 630 00:34:09.550 --> 00:34:11.570 implement into the domestic game, if at all? 631 00:34:11.909 --> 00:34:14.170 The coverage has been great. Games are more than just games, 632 00:34:14.190 --> 00:34:14.730 they're events. 633 00:34:14.949 --> 00:34:17.349 It's amazing what real expertise can bring to the table 634 00:34:17.429 --> 00:34:20.170 and attract new eyes slash interest to the sport. 635 00:34:20.230 --> 00:34:21.329 I'll let you tackle that one. 636 00:34:21.369 --> 00:34:26.579 Well, I am making the argument that England is as 637 00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:32.820 far back as 1982. when the Invincibles went over to England. Now, 638 00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:36.000 the reason I say that, England are representative of the 639 00:34:36.059 --> 00:34:39.380 Northern Hemisphere. So back in 1982, it was Great Britain 640 00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:43.500 and France. There was no Wales or Scotland or Ireland 641 00:34:44.059 --> 00:34:48.639 regularly competing on the top table. Secondly, the Australian side 642 00:34:48.699 --> 00:34:54.099 played without a Tonga or Samoa of any note. And 643 00:34:54.420 --> 00:34:56.920 if Australia were all of a sudden, if the eligibility 644 00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:02.309 rules changed, And Australia could call every player up who 645 00:35:02.869 --> 00:35:06.690 could represent Australia and everyone else just fought over the rest. 646 00:35:08.070 --> 00:35:10.289 I would hate to think what score it would be 647 00:35:10.349 --> 00:35:13.230 if England played Australia, if they could call on every 648 00:35:13.289 --> 00:35:15.659 one of their players. England are so lucky the talent 649 00:35:15.699 --> 00:35:18.659 has been spread out. The thing, yeah, the thing is though, Lee, 650 00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:21.579 Australia can call on, you know, Payne Haas and all 651 00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:24.639 these other players, but they've chosen, they've made the decision. 652 00:35:25.699 --> 00:35:28.840 You know, Stephen Clyde and Brian Toto, who else am 653 00:35:28.900 --> 00:35:34.320 I thinking? I'm not arguing that, John. What I'm saying 654 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.260 is that's how far back we are right now. So 655 00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:39.340 Ben asked, what can we take? Well, what we have 656 00:35:39.380 --> 00:35:43.619 to take is the absolute maximum, i.e. we're at ground 657 00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:48.150 zero again. So any progress we made since 1982, and 658 00:35:48.170 --> 00:35:52.170 trust me, we made plenty, particularly going into the 2000s 659 00:35:52.829 --> 00:35:59.019 and the 2010s, we are now right back at base because, honestly, 660 00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:04.679 England are so lucky that they only got to play 661 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:09.050 one third or one fourth, one quarter of the NRL. 662 00:36:09.929 --> 00:36:12.510 They are so lucky that that's all that happened. 663 00:36:13.670 --> 00:36:17.190 I think, yeah, Ben's looking at positives and, you know, 664 00:36:17.210 --> 00:36:19.150 how to, I guess, pull them into super. Like, I'd 665 00:36:19.190 --> 00:36:21.289 say one thing for me is that, and he says 666 00:36:21.309 --> 00:36:23.090 the coverage has been great. I think it has. I 667 00:36:23.110 --> 00:36:25.590 think Channel 7's been a breath of fresh air. They've 668 00:36:25.610 --> 00:36:29.460 been very positive. But the access for media, I think, 669 00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:31.420 has been really good.

There's been no mixed zones. You 670 00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:35.239 can basically get any player that you want off the game. Yeah. 671 00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:38.000 I used the example in my piece in the iPaper 672 00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:41.139 yesterday about England's access and their access for media in 673 00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:43.719 this World Cup has been fantastic and their access in 674 00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:46.699 the Ashes last year was a joke. They did nothing 675 00:36:46.780 --> 00:36:49.329 really to engage with their own fans. They were shown 676 00:36:49.369 --> 00:36:54.010 up by the Kangaroos. Were the English players better this year? Well, 677 00:36:54.030 --> 00:36:56.630 it wasn't the players. It's not the players' fault. It's 678 00:36:56.670 --> 00:37:04.579 down to, you know, the head coach and the, you know, Brian. 679 00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:05.519 McDermott was very good. 680 00:37:06.099 --> 00:37:08.519 The players were very good that I spoke to pre 681 00:37:08.579 --> 00:37:12.090 the Papagnini game and then after. But what I'm saying is, 682 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:15.090 you know, when we talked about this on the Ashes podcast, um, 683 00:37:16.349 --> 00:37:19.909 In Liverpool and Leeds, they didn't do any captain's run. 684 00:37:19.949 --> 00:37:22.630 They didn't do any open training sessions. They hid away 685 00:37:22.690 --> 00:37:26.199 in Worsley in their hotel. And while the Kangaroos were, 686 00:37:26.219 --> 00:37:29.260 you know, signing autographs with England fans and winning over 687 00:37:29.300 --> 00:37:32.519 hearts and minds, So I think the NRL players, particularly 688 00:37:32.539 --> 00:37:35.539 the Kangaroos, they understand that they have to sell the game. 689 00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:37.940 They sell the game and get more people to games. 690 00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:40.900 They make more money individually. You know, they're better for 691 00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:43.420 their brand. They get better sponsorship. There's still not a 692 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.639 mentality in Super League and the RFL about engagement, about 693 00:37:46.659 --> 00:37:47.400 talking directly to the game. 694 00:37:47.420 --> 00:37:49.440 And what the Super League clubs don't understand, so when 695 00:37:49.460 --> 00:37:51.780 they do everything they can to stop the international team 696 00:37:51.820 --> 00:37:54.519 doing well, what the Super League clubs don't understand, there's 697 00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:56.659 kids in Wigan and St. Helens, et cetera, who are 698 00:37:56.679 --> 00:38:00.400 growing up dreaming of being like Reece Walsh or Buzzaio or... 699 00:38:01.300 --> 00:38:06.099 Stephen Crichton or Brian Toto or Jerome Luai. I bet now, 700 00:38:06.260 --> 00:38:09.280 I bet NRL jerseys outsell local jerseys in England. 701 00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:13.760 There's one for you. I bet they do. That wouldn't 702 00:38:13.780 --> 00:38:18.130 surprise me. I mean, every Challenge Cup final trip I've

703 00:38:18.170 --> 00:38:21.789 made down to London in the last decade, you see 704 00:38:21.829 --> 00:38:25.170 so many. You see Broncos, Brisbane Broncos jerseys. You see 705 00:38:25.190 --> 00:38:29.090 South jerseys. You see Manly jerseys. You see Parrot jerseys. Yeah. Yeah. 706 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:33.039 um question from david sinclair will promotion be on league 707 00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:37.340 points only or points at ing score david we don't 708 00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:38.539 know the answer to that i. 709 00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:41.380 Think what about what about what about it's november the 710 00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:46.400 third that we're recording and we don't know how many 711 00:38:46.460 --> 00:38:48.570 teams will be in super league we don't know when 712 00:38:48.610 --> 00:38:52.269 super league starts we don't know when how many teams 713 00:38:52.329 --> 00:38:54.949 in the championship and when the championship starts. 714 00:38:56.260 --> 00:39:00.210 Yeah, well, we don't know if Feather are back in. Obviously, 715 00:39:00.230 --> 00:39:02.889 North Wales are back in, which is quite a surprise 716 00:39:03.809 --> 00:39:08.679 after they were basically knocked off and then came back in. 717 00:39:09.420 --> 00:39:12.860 Maybe some threats of legal action may have worked. But 718 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:16.579 in terms of the NRL deal, I think the... Now 719 00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:19.099 it's down to votes. So it's votes to approve the 720 00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:23.010 TV deal, votes to approve the 15 teams in Super League, 721 00:39:23.469 --> 00:39:25.829 obviously vote to London being in. 722 00:39:25.849 --> 00:39:28.170 Honestly, John, clubs to survive. 723 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:31.860 Need to sell season tickets. 724 00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:34.960 They've been selling them for a while. 725 00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:36.199 Based on how many games? 726 00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.260 Based on 14 teams. 727 00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:39.320 On what fixtures? 728 00:39:40.190 --> 00:39:45.730 When does the season start? Honestly, if you don't laugh, 729 00:39:45.750 --> 00:39:46.250 you cry. 730 00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:50.239 Yeah, we'll move on from that because we've still got 731 00:39:50.260 --> 00:39:54.019 a load of questions to get through. RJ Sports, aside 732 00:39:54.059 --> 00:39:56.079 from England on field, I feel disappointed with the atmosphere 733 00:39:56.099 --> 00:39:58.190 at England games. Loads of English fans travelled half the 734 00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:00.510 world to support, but we haven't replicated the Super League 735 00:40:00.550 --> 00:40:02.889 atmosphere in recent years with England. Why aren't we handing 736 00:40:02.929 --> 00:40:08.739 out drums and flags, etc.? Yeah, drums and flags make 737 00:40:08.860 --> 00:40:13.900 the atmosphere, don't they? I mean, yeah, that's an interesting point. 738 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.340 I mean, I think probably the flags with Tonga definitely 739 00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:19.579 do answer more. But, I mean, they're not giving out. 740 00:40:19.619 --> 00:40:22.079 They go out and buy them. I've got to be honest, though, too. 741 00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:25.150 I think a lot depends on what's going on in 742 00:40:25.179 --> 00:40:31.230 the field, okay? And also, Perth. I don't know if 743 00:40:31.269 --> 00:40:34.670 there's a huge rugby league diaspora in Perth from England. 744 00:40:34.690 --> 00:40:37.489 There's a small one. 745 00:40:39.150 --> 00:40:41.510 There's a small one, but yeah. A small one, right? 746 00:40:41.570 --> 00:40:44.150 So if it was in Sydney or Brisbane or Melbourne even, 747 00:40:44.190 --> 00:40:48.269 I think you'd get a bit more parochial support. But also, 748 00:40:48.570 --> 00:40:50.719 it's not like any of the games were really that tense, 749 00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:53.539 apart from maybe Tonga and England in the first game. 750 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:55.340 And I think the English fans were okay there. 751 00:40:56.760 --> 00:40:59.280 The atmosphere at Wollongong on Friday night was good. 752 00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:04.610 You know, there was Hull K.R., Lee, Jersey, all sorts of... Yeah, 753 00:41:04.650 --> 00:41:08.500 I mean, it was basically a sellout that game. Well, no, sorry, 754 00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:10.840 it wasn't a sellout. It was, I think, 2,000 or 3,000 755 00:41:10.840 --> 00:41:13.260 short of a sellout, but it was a very, very 756 00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:14.780 full win stadium. 757 00:41:15.059 --> 00:41:17.659 Maybe they're resigned to the fate of their national team. 758 00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:19.360 Maybe that's why they're not singing songs. 759 00:41:20.139 --> 00:41:21.909 I think you worry more about on the field than 760 00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:25.650 the atmosphere. Right now, yeah. Yeah. 761 00:41:25.710 --> 00:41:32.610 Question from j.r.d. Great Twitter handle, that one. Would it 762 00:41:32.650 --> 00:41:34.610 be worth the strongest one or two teams from the 763 00:41:34.650 --> 00:41:37.849 French Super League 13 comp joining the championship with the 764 00:41:37.889 --> 00:41:40.309 aim of Super League promotion or for them to stay 765 00:41:40.349 --> 00:41:44.559 and focus on developing the French League? I would say, yeah, 766 00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:46.639 it would be great, but there's no way that the 767 00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:48.639 teams in the championship would want them in. 768 00:41:49.070 --> 00:41:52.150 But he's obviously saying that with a view to growing France, right? Well, 769 00:41:52.170 --> 00:41:54.369 the two professional teams we have, half of them are 770 00:41:54.429 --> 00:41:56.170 Australian or English. 771 00:41:57.800 --> 00:41:58.380 Yeah. 772 00:41:58.539 --> 00:42:01.059 So because of the Super League rules, you can have 773 00:42:01.059 --> 00:42:02.119 10 overseas players. 774 00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:04.980 Yeah, in a perfect world, that would be great. 775 00:42:05.000 -->

00:42:08.280 But the only way that happens is if the NRL 776 00:42:08.739 --> 00:42:12.409 takes complete control and then says, we're putting another French 777 00:42:12.429 --> 00:42:14.750 team in, you know, like a relump to the other 778 00:42:14.769 --> 00:42:18.090 championship clubs. But as the current system where the clubs 779 00:42:18.110 --> 00:42:22.429 decided they would not want another French team in the championship. 780 00:42:24.010 --> 00:42:26.300 He's also, the same person's got another question. What's your 781 00:42:26.340 --> 00:42:28.599 thoughts on playing an international tournament in both Northern and 782 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:33.130 Southern hemispheres in between World Cups two years after? Southern Hemisphere, Oz, 783 00:42:33.190 --> 00:42:35.969 New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa, PNG, Fiji, Cook Islands and England, 784 00:42:36.389 --> 00:42:41.219 Northern Hemisphere, France, Lebanon, USA, Ireland, et cetera. Well, we 785 00:42:41.260 --> 00:42:44.860 have the Pacific Championships every year at the moment, which 786 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:49.340 basically does that except you take out England. The Northern Hemisphere, look, 787 00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:52.360 it's a great idea, but again, it comes back to money. 788 00:42:53.019 --> 00:42:55.760 Who's going to pay? In the Northern Hemisphere, where would 789 00:42:55.780 --> 00:42:58.519 you have a series involving France, Lebanon, USA and Ireland? 790 00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:00.250 Where would you have it and how many things. 791 00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:00.599 Are you going to get? 792 00:43:00.610 --> 00:43:02.880 Who's going to pay? Yeah, that's the thing. 793 00:43:02.900 --> 00:43:07.280 Everyone stay in Hubwood Hall. If we got a quarterfinal 794 00:43:07.300 --> 00:43:10.880 in 2022 between the Kangaroos, the defending World Cup champions, 795 00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:14.780 and Lebanon, and our quarterfinal, and we've got 6,000 people, 796 00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:17.650 how many people are going to turn up to USA v. 797 00:43:17.849 --> 00:43:19.849 Ireland in, you know, Featherston? 798 00:43:21.630 --> 00:43:24.710 Or Huddersfield. Yeah, like, in a perfect world, that would 799 00:43:24.730 --> 00:43:26.630 be great, but I think we're a long way from 800 00:43:26.710 --> 00:43:31.329 making that affordable. Yeah. John Hodgson, surely a test series 801 00:43:31.349 --> 00:43:33.389 between France and Lebanon has to happen for the next 802 00:43:33.429 --> 00:43:34.199 World Cup? Yeah. 803 00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:38.639 We already talked about that, John. Yep. Stuart asks, at the. 804 00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:41.900 RFL World Cup review, if they even have one, do 805 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:44.219 they just show this game in early Australia v New 806 00:43:44.260 --> 00:43:46.349 Zealand 1 to show how far behind we are now? 807 00:43:46.789 --> 00:43:49.630 Well, that's Ben's question before. We just have to look 808 00:43:49.730 --> 00:43:52.429 at tactically how far behind we are. 809 00:43:52.449 --> 00:43:53.429 Yeah. 810 00:43:55.590 --> 00:43:55.750 Yeah. 811 00:43:56.380 --> 00:44:00.480 A question from Hilt Stevens. England didn't qualify because of 812 00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:01.719 for and against, not. 813 00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:02.360 Because of the draw. 814 00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:03.980 Was this a missed opportunity? 815 00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:07.849 Yes. Yeah, it was. 816 00:44:07.869 --> 00:44:11.969 There's only one lot of people to blame, and that's England, 817 00:44:12.389 --> 00:44:15.929 as in the game and how it prepared its players 818 00:44:15.969 --> 00:44:18.489 and how it allowed its players to prepare for this tournament. 819 00:44:19.190 --> 00:44:21.190 I don't blame the coach. I don't blame the players. 820 00:44:21.449 --> 00:44:22.050 Of course, I'll. 821 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:24.969 Past comment on the tactics and things like that. That's 822 00:44:25.010 --> 00:44:29.110 what happens. That's what we all do. But we can't 823 00:44:29.170 --> 00:44:31.670 sit here and say the English players gave it anything 824 00:44:31.710 --> 00:44:32.010 but 100%. 825 00:44:32.010 --> 00:44:35.670 Oh, no, no, exactly. 826 00:44:35.750 --> 00:44:36.349 I agree. 827 00:44:36.869 --> 00:44:39.190 And, you know, as I wrote in the eye, and 828 00:44:39.210 --> 00:44:41.230 it's about a thousand words, so people please go out 829 00:44:41.250 --> 00:44:43.809 and read it online or we can't buy the paper 830 00:44:43.829 --> 00:44:45.230 from yesterday, but you can read it online. 831 00:44:46.269 --> 00:44:49.110 There's lots of reasons for why England failed. 832 00:44:49.510 --> 00:44:52.190 And part of them is to do with historical reasons, 833 00:44:52.269 --> 00:44:54.699 you know, with the Super League clubs, you know, not 834 00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:58.070 allowing a mid-season test for an Exiles or, A War 835 00:44:58.110 --> 00:45:01.230 of the Roses. And, you know, part of it is 836 00:45:01.570 --> 00:45:04.909 down to development. You know, we've talked about quota systems. 837 00:45:04.949 --> 00:45:09.199 You know, when the majority of your fullbacks, your halfbacks 838 00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:12.360 and hookers are Australian or Kiwi, you don't have much 839 00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:14.199 of a talent pool to pick for on the national team. 840 00:45:14.659 --> 00:45:16.159 And then also you look at, you know, they had 841 00:45:16.219 --> 00:45:19.500 two field sessions before the Tonga game. The travel was 842 00:45:19.539 --> 00:45:23.619 a joke. You know, no mid-season test. And then, you know, 843 00:45:23.659 --> 00:45:26.230 you can question some of the selections, but there was also... 844 00:45:26.590 --> 00:45:28.210 A bit of bad luck with Morgan Knowles and Morden 845 00:45:28.230 --> 00:45:31.849 Smithies being unavailable. A lot of injuries after the Super 846 00:45:31.869 --> 00:45:35.690 League Grand Final. But, yeah, it was a missed opportunity, 847 00:45:36.230 -->

00:45:39.309 without a doubt. I think that is all the questions 848 00:45:39.329 --> 00:45:42.489 we have. Thank you, everyone, for writing in. Facebook, anything 849 00:45:42.530 --> 00:45:43.210 on Facebook? 850 00:45:44.219 --> 00:45:45.300 No, we've done Facebook already. 851 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:47.659 You've done X? Yep. 852 00:45:48.869 --> 00:45:50.730 I'm sure there was more questions than that, John. I 853 00:45:50.889 --> 00:45:55.739 don't love a skirt. Anyway, until we sort that out, 854 00:45:55.820 --> 00:45:58.440 breaking press release from the Rugby Football League this week. 855 00:45:58.460 --> 00:46:00.119 This is your tweet of the week. Breaking. 856 00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:04.260 Within minutes of going out of the tournament, anyone would 857 00:46:04.280 --> 00:46:06.300 think they had this ready. Maybe they thought this was 858 00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:10.510 going to happen. Quote, some of the greatest players in 859 00:46:10.590 --> 00:46:15.250 England's modern history. I've got an issue about that straight away, 860 00:46:15.650 --> 00:46:18.119 will convene to help map out a future for the 861 00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:23.539 national game, including further analysis of the pyramid from grassroots 862 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:27.320 to pathways to the player pool for the international stage. 863 00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.570 After the disappointment of seeing England miss out on the 864 00:46:30.610 --> 00:46:33.949 World Cup semi-finals across both the men's and women's competition, 865 00:46:34.650 --> 00:46:38.329 recently appointed RFL chief executive Ian Nolan has decided to 866 00:46:38.369 --> 00:46:41.269 call upon the knowledge of a raft of stellar quality 867 00:46:42.030 --> 00:46:46.289 to form an in-depth discussion on national performance. Former Great 868 00:46:46.309 --> 00:46:50.199 Britain captain Paul Schoolthorpe, MBE and iconic forward Adrian Morley 869 00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:52.579 among the names of those who will now get together 870 00:46:52.619 --> 00:46:55.440 to look at what extra can be done to help 871 00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:58.260 make the England teams a genuine force. They will be 872 00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:01.880 joined by Gareth Ellis, who played in the last men's 873 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:05.340 side from these shores to defeat world champions Australia in 874 00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:09.090 2006 and works as a current assistant coach with York Knights. 875 00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:13.420 plus recently retired St Helens and England captain Jodie Cunningham, 876 00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:19.170 who will bring value perspectives for the women's and girls' games. 877 00:47:19.230 --> 00:47:21.730 There will be more names confirmed on the panel roster 878 00:47:21.750 --> 00:47:25.429 in the coming days, with views and opinions sought from 879 00:47:25.530 --> 00:47:30.719 key personnel across the sport. The panel's launch will augment 880 00:47:30.780 --> 00:47:33.820 the work started early in the year, coined internally as 881 00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:36.920 one game, One England. Well, yeah, they only had one 882 00:47:36.940 --> 00:47:39.960 game to win and they didn't. Now extending that remit 883 00:47:40.179 --> 00:47:42.659 across the whole pyramid, looking at how the player pool 884 00:47:42.699 --> 00:47:46.559 in this country is increased and how the game is played. Nolan, 885 00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:48.530 who took up his new role with the RFL just 886 00:47:48.550 --> 00:47:51.750 four weeks ago, said in this World Cup, Brian McDermott 887 00:47:51.769 --> 00:47:53.869 and his men's squad have delivered two wins from their 888 00:47:53.889 --> 00:47:58.110 three games and shown signs of genuine quality. The 82-0 889 00:47:58.789 --> 00:48:02.260 win over France was emphatic. as anyone could have hoped for, 890 00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:04.730 and the opening 20 minutes against Papua New Guinea on 891 00:48:04.769 --> 00:48:10.070 Friday was similarly impressive. Sadly, we couldn't quite maintain that 892 00:48:10.130 --> 00:48:12.949 level throughout, but we still emerged with two wins and 893 00:48:12.989 --> 00:48:17.349 were unfortunate in many ways to not prosper versus Tonga 894 00:48:17.650 --> 00:48:20.989 in our opener. There are plenty of mitigating reasons why 895 00:48:21.050 --> 00:48:24.110 we failed to reach the knockout stages, many of which 896 00:48:24.170 --> 00:48:27.230 were out of our control, such as travel itineraries and 897 00:48:27.289 --> 00:48:32.090 format of the competition. but we can't use these as excuses. Likewise, 898 00:48:32.170 --> 00:48:34.570 we were also criticised for what happened with the TV 899 00:48:34.650 --> 00:48:37.710 rights and the tournament going behind a paywall. We had 900 00:48:37.769 --> 00:48:40.679 no control over who the rights were sold to. However, 901 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:44.820 television is an important element of capturing the imagination of 902 00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:47.800 the next generation. This analysis of our national game will 903 00:48:47.820 --> 00:48:52.500 be all-encompassing, including how we can influence media rights, balancing 904 00:48:52.579 --> 00:48:54.820 reach and revenue, and attracting new audiences. 905 00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:56.110 But on the pitch.... 906 00:48:57.090 --> 00:48:59.519 We must look at why we have consistently struggled to 907 00:48:59.559 --> 00:49:01.719 make our mark on the world stage for more than 908 00:49:01.780 --> 00:49:06.119 half a century. This isn't just a recent problem. With 909 00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:08.980 one game, one England, we have already been in consultation 910 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:11.929 with the Super League clubs for some time with regards 911 00:49:11.949 --> 00:49:15.110 to new talent and performance strategy around pathways and academies. 912 00:49:15.150 --> 00:49:17.309 This will be finalised by the end of the year 913 00:49:18.690 --> 00:49:21.059 and the panel will add further

validations. to that aspect 914 00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:24.079 of work. Nolan has also spent time at the RFL's 915 00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:29.690 innovative DISE programme where the 2026 cohort of England elite 916 00:49:29.730 --> 00:49:33.130 girls were onboarded and recognised the England women's team are 917 00:49:33.150 --> 00:49:36.309 genuinely building for the future. He said grassroots investment in 918 00:49:36.369 --> 00:49:40.010 our women and girls game Only started a few years ago, 919 00:49:40.090 --> 00:49:42.710 we've started that journey. Stuart Barrow took a very young 920 00:49:42.769 --> 00:49:45.570 side to this World Cup with 11 graduates from our 921 00:49:45.630 --> 00:49:49.570 DISC programme. We're very much building for the next World Cup. 922 00:49:49.610 --> 00:49:52.349 The average age of our squad was just 21 years old. 923 00:49:53.110 --> 00:49:55.530 But the groundwork is starting to pay off. The panel 924 00:49:55.550 --> 00:49:58.369 will help us form some big decisions and changes. Those 925 00:49:58.389 --> 00:50:01.130 decisions might need the support of the entire game and 926 00:50:01.170 --> 00:50:04.809 progress won't be achieved overnight. I'll take a breath now. 927 00:50:06.150 --> 00:50:09.650 Where do you want to start on that, John? I mean, look, 928 00:50:10.650 --> 00:50:12.769 the starting point, look, I think they need a review. 929 00:50:12.869 --> 00:50:16.059 They do need, you know, people to come in and analyse. 930 00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:18.800 And I'm not trying to, I'm not having a shot 931 00:50:18.820 --> 00:50:21.880 at anyone who they've added there, but with Paul Schofield, 932 00:50:21.940 --> 00:50:24.920 obviously a great player. He was part of the England 933 00:50:24.940 --> 00:50:30.539 staff from 2016 under Wayne Bennett. Jodie Cunningham, I believe, 934 00:50:30.579 --> 00:50:33.679 has been working for the RFL since 2019. Yeah. 935 00:50:36.829 --> 00:50:37.650 Yeah, in development. 936 00:50:37.849 --> 00:50:42.349 So obviously I don't think Gareth Ellis has had a role, 937 00:50:43.070 --> 00:50:46.139 but I think they need to be looking outside the bubble. 938 00:50:46.900 --> 00:50:50.380 And look, Gareth Ellis, Adrian Morley, Sam Burgess, I think 939 00:50:50.420 --> 00:50:54.840 people who've got experience with development systems in Australia, even 940 00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:57.679 people like Wayne Bennett or people from the Australian side, 941 00:50:57.699 --> 00:50:59.619 it doesn't need to be English people who are looking 942 00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:03.480 at the English game. I'd maybe even go to Justin 943 00:51:03.539 --> 00:51:08.889 Holbrook or Willie Peters coaches who've, you know, who have 944 00:51:08.969 --> 00:51:11.090 experienced both NRL and Super League systems. 945 00:51:11.150 --> 00:51:13.289 Also need to go to pathways people, people who are 946 00:51:13.329 --> 00:51:14.889 involved with juniors in this country. 947 00:51:15.469 --> 00:51:17.909 Yeah, yeah. It's not just, exactly, it's not just about 948 00:51:17.949 --> 00:51:21.760 the senior level. It's more really about the development pathways. 949 00:51:22.460 --> 00:51:25.639 And I think all that needs an overlook. And I've 950 00:51:25.659 --> 00:51:28.400 written a piece later in this week, you know, in 951 00:51:28.420 --> 00:51:31.739 the eye about, you know, six-point plan to how to improve. 952 00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:34.820 What were your six points? What were your six points? 953 00:51:35.860 --> 00:51:37.559 Off the top of my head, you really put me 954 00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:39.099 on the spot. 955 00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:43.389 Here, Lee. But my point is about the review. Jeez, 956 00:51:43.670 --> 00:51:46.230 we love a review in English rugby league. 957 00:51:46.449 --> 00:51:48.909 Well, while you're finding that, what's going to happen with 958 00:51:48.929 --> 00:51:50.670 the review is the clubs are going to go, we're 959 00:51:50.690 --> 00:51:52.679 going to see all these recommendations and the clubs are 960 00:51:52.699 --> 00:51:57.340 going to go, no, no, no, no, no, no, maybe, 961 00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:58.139 aren't they? 962 00:51:59.300 --> 00:52:00.199 Yeah. 963 00:52:00.260 --> 00:52:02.960 The big challenge is making the clubs realise it's damaging them. 964 00:52:04.449 --> 00:52:07.130 Yeah, and look, my six-point plan, and the first point 965 00:52:07.190 --> 00:52:10.769 is completely obvious, partner with the NRL. So unless you 966 00:52:10.789 --> 00:52:14.730 change the administration setup and you bring new money in 967 00:52:14.929 --> 00:52:16.969 and expertise, nothing changes. 968 00:52:17.449 --> 00:52:20.150 So that's the key point. 969 00:52:20.630 --> 00:52:23.500 Once that happens, then you can actually make some change 970 00:52:23.539 --> 00:52:26.000 and you can invest in some areas. My second point 971 00:52:26.059 --> 00:52:29.420 is reduce the clubs in Super League because– you need 972 00:52:29.659 --> 00:52:32.099 your players playing an intense competition every week. And with 973 00:52:32.099 --> 00:52:34.760 15 or 14 teams, there's not enough intense games, in 974 00:52:34.820 --> 00:52:39.130 my opinion. Other people may disagree. Third point, invest in 975 00:52:39.170 --> 00:52:43.170 academies and participation. You know, we've talked on this podcast for, what, 976 00:52:43.210 --> 00:52:45.010 more than a year about, you know, the lack of... 977 00:52:46.610 --> 00:52:48.829 schools rugby league, the lack of the sport being visible 978 00:52:48.869 --> 00:52:51.610 and played in schools across the country, participation in the 979 00:52:51.630 --> 00:52:55.889 men's game is reduced, and the sort of academy reserves 980 00:52:55.929 --> 00:52:56.269 set up. 981 00:52:56.329 --> 00:52:57.690 I mean, the reserves barely play. 982 00:52:57.710 --> 00:53:01.090 There really needs to be a look at development and pathways. 983 00:53:01.550 --> 00:53:04.289 And

then, you know, the funding of development offices in London, 984 00:53:04.409 --> 00:53:06.929 the Midlands, Wales, Scotland, that was all slashed after the 985 00:53:06.929 --> 00:53:10.530 2013 World Cup. So that's got to change. Reduce the 986 00:53:10.570 --> 00:53:14.710 overseas quota is the next point, another obvious one. You know, 987 00:53:15.469 --> 00:53:17.949 if the majority or if a third of each Super 988 00:53:17.969 --> 00:53:22.500 League squad is taken up by Aussies, Kiwis, Pacific Islanders, 989 00:53:22.539 --> 00:53:25.300 Papua New Guineans, then they're not going to be eligible 990 00:53:25.619 --> 00:53:27.440 to play for England, are they? So you're reducing your 991 00:53:27.500 --> 00:53:32.760 own selection pool. The fifth point, take the national team seriously. Obviously, 992 00:53:33.500 --> 00:53:36.980 you know, it's about having a mid-season test. whether it's 993 00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:39.260 a series in Exiles, A War of the Roses, a 994 00:53:39.300 --> 00:53:42.000 new concert, England Needs Its Own, State of Origin series. 995 00:53:42.579 --> 00:53:44.780 And the same goes for the women's game and also 996 00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:47.780 the England Academy, who have not played the Australian schoolboys, 997 00:53:47.820 --> 00:53:53.030 who they beat twice since 2018. So I think... And 998 00:53:53.050 --> 00:53:55.719 I think part of that is that the Aussies didn't 999 00:53:55.739 --> 00:53:58.400 want to send their team over. But if that's the case, 1000 00:53:58.460 --> 00:54:01.019 then England or the RFL needs to spend money and 1001 00:54:01.099 --> 00:54:04.920 send them over and play the schoolboys and the Kiwis 1002 00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:08.610 at under-18 level every year because that's another step that 1003 00:54:08.630 --> 00:54:11.070 kind of goes, this is the level that you have 1004 00:54:11.090 --> 00:54:13.409 to be at. This is what it's like playing in Australia, 1005 00:54:13.809 --> 00:54:16.469 you know, under their conditions, their referees. It would help 1006 00:54:16.510 --> 00:54:19.280 the development of these kids so much. When it comes 1007 00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:21.199 to pathway. And my last point. Oh, sorry. 1008 00:54:22.090 --> 00:54:24.730 Yep, sorry. When it comes. 1009 00:54:24.489 --> 00:54:29.309 To pathways, you do your last point. Well, no, no, sorry. 1010 00:54:29.489 --> 00:54:32.849 My last point is increase the salary cap because I'm 1011 00:54:32.909 --> 00:54:35.690 a big fan of salary caps personally, but Super League's 1012 00:54:35.929 --> 00:54:38.670 salary cap of 2.1 million has not changed since 2020. 1013 00:54:38.670 --> 00:54:42.880 The salary cap in premiership rugby is 6.8 million, while 1014 00:54:42.889 --> 00:54:46.059 the NRL's is 11, well, basically 12 million, which is 1015 00:54:46.099 --> 00:54:48.280 around 6.27 million pounds. 1016 00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:49.539 And it's going to grow. 1017 00:54:50.820 --> 00:54:54.780 If you're Say you're a talented, I don't know, 10-year-old, 8-year-old, whatever, 1018 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:57.139 kid in England, and you've got a football, you've got 1019 00:54:57.159 --> 00:54:58.610 a cricket, you've got a rugby union, you've got a 1020 00:54:58.630 --> 00:55:01.630 rugby league. You're not going to choose rugby league, are you? 1021 00:55:01.690 --> 00:55:04.989 Because you know if you have a career as a footballer, 1022 00:55:05.010 --> 00:55:09.969 you can make huge money. Playing fourth division. Exactly. So 1023 00:55:10.349 --> 00:55:12.590 you go to rugby league and you might make, you know, 1024 00:55:12.610 --> 00:55:16.050 I don't know, 80 grand, 100 grand a year. It's 1025 00:55:16.090 --> 00:55:20.500 not enough. There are clubs, Super League clubs out there 1026 00:55:20.539 --> 00:55:26.380 with very wealthy owners who are in favour of increasing 1027 00:55:26.420 --> 00:55:26.760 the cap. 1028 00:55:28.429 --> 00:55:30.449 What I see when I see England play in this 1029 00:55:30.489 --> 00:55:34.309 tournament and in the Ashes last year, most of the 1030 00:55:34.349 --> 00:55:38.869 basics are there. However, in pressure circumstances, they fold massively. 1031 00:55:39.449 --> 00:55:43.929 And a lot of that is due to lack of 1032 00:55:44.010 --> 00:55:47.139 exposure to intense competition on a regular basis. So if 1033 00:55:47.179 --> 00:55:50.360 you're a super league player, you've probably got eight tough 1034 00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:54.760 games a year in reality, and you can go in 1035 00:55:54.760 --> 00:55:56.840 60 or 70% to some of them. Maybe that's due 1036 00:55:56.860 --> 00:56:00.539 to the lower teams, a disservice, but I'm not really 1037 00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:04.750 in the mood to be too forgiving right now. Um, 1038 00:56:06.300 --> 00:56:10.659 So there's that lack of exposure to the intensity. So 1039 00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:17.050 that's one, intensity. Number two, the mental torture. So literally 1040 00:56:17.130 --> 00:56:21.190 everybody in their lifetime will have never achieved anything against 1041 00:56:21.750 --> 00:56:25.730 Southern Hemisphere opposition, unless it's at home when the Southern 1042 00:56:25.750 --> 00:56:27.789 Hemisphere opposition leave half their team. 1043 00:56:28.929 --> 00:56:33.460 Or World Club Challenge. Yeah, with half the team of Aussies. So... 1044 00:56:34.449 --> 00:56:36.090 So there's a mental problem. 1045 00:56:36.630 --> 00:56:44.099 Okay. Right. The intensity issue. Mr. 1046 00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:47.199 Nolan, if you don't know this already, and I'm talking 1047 00:56:47.219 --> 00:56:49.260 to you with the greatest amount of respect, because I 1048 00:56:49.260 --> 00:56:52.539 really do appreciate you getting that statement out early and 1049 00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:56.119 I appreciate all the sentiments. But what you've basically done, Mr. Nolan, 1050 00:56:56.159 --> 00:56:58.849 is produced a list of everything that the Rugby Football 1051

00:56:58.889 --> 00:56:59.909 League does really poorly. 1052 00:56:59.929 --> 00:57:02.420 Okay. That's basically what it is. This is what we 1053 00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:05.179 don't do very well. And we need to look at 1054 00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:06.510 it in your right. Okay. 1055 00:57:07.510 --> 00:57:11.409 All the answers are in history already. And you probably 1056 00:57:11.449 --> 00:57:14.570 only have to go back about 20, 25 years. You 1057 00:57:14.590 --> 00:57:17.309 probably could even go back a bit further to documents 1058 00:57:17.369 --> 00:57:20.329 like framing the future. All the answers are there. To 1059 00:57:20.369 --> 00:57:22.829 be honest, if you scroll through X, you'll see most 1060 00:57:22.869 --> 00:57:26.860 of the answers. It's not rocket science. To recreate the 1061 00:57:26.889 --> 00:57:32.429 intensity issue, and to also cover the mentality issue about 1062 00:57:32.510 --> 00:57:36.590 playing Australians and beating Australians. We were so close under 1063 00:57:36.610 --> 00:57:40.010 the old world-class performance plan where Sport England was funding 1064 00:57:40.050 --> 00:57:44.309 it for us, and it's not a coincidence that the 1065 00:57:44.389 --> 00:57:48.679 funding stopped 2012, and we've only had one good World 1066 00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:53.500 Cup since then. It's not a coincidence, right? A development 1067 00:57:53.539 --> 00:57:57.030 system takes 10 years to bear fruit, And therefore, it 1068 00:57:57.070 --> 00:58:00.250 takes 10 years to unbear fruit. 1069 00:58:00.630 --> 00:58:01.090 Okay? 1070 00:58:01.130 --> 00:58:04.349 Can I add to that? 1071 00:58:04.409 --> 00:58:07.469 The one World Cup where England did well, they appointed 1072 00:58:07.909 --> 00:58:11.760 Wayne Bennett, arguably the best coach of all time. They 1073 00:58:11.820 --> 00:58:14.380 invested money. They flew down to Sydney and played Samoa 1074 00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:18.320 in a mid-season test. And they also had basically a 1075 00:58:18.400 --> 00:58:21.820 mini pre-season army boot camp in Perth and then played 1076 00:58:21.940 --> 00:58:24.780 a a scratch per select side before their first game 1077 00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:27.139 in that world cup so their preparation was. 1078 00:58:27.099 --> 00:58:30.440 Fantastic also a lot of those players were still from 1079 00:58:30.460 --> 00:58:32.559 a lot of those players were still from that sport 1080 00:58:32.619 --> 00:58:33.679 england system. 1081 00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:37.460 And but they almost won that world cup they almost and. 1082 00:58:36.920 --> 00:58:40.099 Ultimately even with all those bells and whistles the players 1083 00:58:40.139 --> 00:58:42.440 still need to believe when they're in the clutch moments 1084 00:58:42.539 --> 00:58:44.579 that they can hold on and they can get through 1085 00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:47.380 and so how do you create that what you need 1086 00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:49.920 is to create a circumstance from a young age where 1087 00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:55.750 these kids aren't worried about playing Tongan under-18s, Samoan under-18s, 1088 00:58:55.949 --> 00:59:01.139 Australian under-18s, New Zealand under-18s, under-16s, whatever. And you expose 1089 00:59:01.159 --> 00:59:04.889 them to that. So players like James Graham, your Kev Browns, 1090 00:59:04.909 --> 00:59:09.989 your Johnny Lomaxes, your, I would dare say Jake Connor 1091 00:59:10.030 --> 00:59:12.760 as well. Anybody who came from that, the Burgess boys, 1092 00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:16.880 they didn't give a flying flamingo about playing against Australia. 1093 00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:20.530 Adrian Wally, they relished it. And the tougher it got, 1094 00:59:20.570 --> 00:59:23.780 the tougher they got. Jamie Peacock, Stuart Field, and et cetera, 1095 00:59:23.800 --> 00:59:26.840 et cetera, because they came through a system. Now, what 1096 00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:28.960 did we do at home that made that different? What 1097 00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:32.260 we did is we had service areas. And you can't 1098 00:59:32.300 --> 00:59:35.840 tell me we need Sport England funding for this. What 1099 00:59:35.889 --> 00:59:38.449 it means is in any given area, so let's say Wigan, 1100 00:59:40.809 --> 00:59:44.650 the clubs, the schools, the churches, the ice cream men, 1101 00:59:44.849 --> 00:59:48.760 the people who work at ASDA, the people who, sell pies, 1102 00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:53.260 all of them get together and pool their resources. And 1103 00:59:53.300 --> 00:59:55.059 we find who are the best 20 kids at a 1104 00:59:55.059 --> 00:59:56.880 certain age group in Wigan, who are the best 20, 1105 00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:59.519 and we play them off against each other as they 1106 00:59:59.559 --> 01:00:02.300 grow up. That's what happened. And then the third thing 1107 01:00:02.340 --> 01:00:05.039 that was, David Waite in particular was very good at this. 1108 01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:09.280 He wanted to make sure that the selection systems didn't 1109 01:00:09.380 --> 01:00:12.619 suffer from nepotism. So you had meetings. 1110 01:00:14.940 --> 01:00:16.840 And quite often as the head coach of one of 1111 01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:18.820 these teams, you were the chair of the meeting. And 1112 01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:20.880 if you sat in a room of selectors and they said, 1113 01:00:20.940 --> 01:00:24.280 I want to pick Johnny Davidson. And the selector said, 1114 01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:26.090 I want to pick Johnny Davidson. He's a good kid. 1115 01:00:26.659 --> 01:00:29.070 The chair had to ask why. Why is he a 1116 01:00:29.070 --> 01:00:30.769 good kid? It wasn't just enough to say he's a 1117 01:00:30.789 --> 01:00:34.949 good kid or he's a Davidson. He's related to that 1118 01:00:35.070 --> 01:00:37.949 Lee Davidson, who was a great player 20 years ago. 1119 01:00:37.989 --> 01:00:39.429 You couldn't do any of that. You have to say 1120 01:00:39.469 --> 01:00:42.650 you have a good right

shoulder contact, great right foot step, 1121 01:00:42.710 --> 01:00:45.429 so on and so forth. So there's three things there. 1122 01:00:45.610 --> 01:00:51.210 Creating intensity. And you do that from juniors and you 1123 01:00:51.250 --> 01:00:55.309 create that in juniors. So intensity is across two schemes there. 1124 01:00:57.190 --> 01:01:01.360 And the third thing is an honest selection system that's 1125 01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:08.599 based on truth and objectivity, not subjectivity. And I don't 1126 01:01:08.659 --> 01:01:11.010 think we need millions of dollars or pounds for that. 1127 01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:12.179 I really don't. 1128 01:01:12.260 --> 01:01:13.170 No, no. 1129 01:01:13.210 --> 01:01:15.429 We just need everybody pulling in the same direction. 1130 01:01:15.530 --> 01:01:18.289 Yeah. But we do need, we do need money to send, 1131 01:01:18.510 --> 01:01:21.650 you know, the England Academy side down under the plate. Yeah. 1132 01:01:21.809 --> 01:01:25.369 But players will also raise their own. Rugby league in 1133 01:01:25.449 --> 01:01:30.179 England comes from working class roots and there's dynastic families 1134 01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:33.659 in England. There's, there's, there's players who play in that 1135 01:01:33.739 --> 01:01:37.619 England side now whose granddad's played for Wigan and blah, blah, blah, blah. 1136 01:01:38.329 --> 01:01:40.550 So they will have got, since the womb, that rugby 1137 01:01:40.570 --> 01:01:42.889 league is a blue-collar sport, so on and so forth. 1138 01:01:43.469 --> 01:01:46.340 If the game is honest with them, pardon me, if 1139 01:01:46.380 --> 01:01:49.019 the game was honest with them six months ago and said, lads, 1140 01:01:49.539 --> 01:01:52.920 we can only fly your cattle class halfway around the world, 1141 01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:55.920 that's all we can afford, I bet half those players 1142 01:01:55.960 --> 01:01:57.820 would have gone out and done a little bit of fundraising. 1143 01:01:59.139 --> 01:02:03.929 I honestly reckon some of them would. The travel has. 1144 01:02:03.590 --> 01:02:03.989 Been a big. 1145 01:02:04.590 --> 01:02:06.349 The travel's been a big thing, and that was done 1146 01:02:06.369 --> 01:02:07.809 by the organisers, but the RFL. 1147 01:02:07.829 --> 01:02:10.730 Well, nobody's owning it, are they? Nobody's really owning it. 1148 01:02:11.190 --> 01:02:13.550 The RFL could have... I mean, the RFL couldn't because 1149 01:02:13.570 --> 01:02:15.719 of their skin, but they could have... They could have 1150 01:02:15.739 --> 01:02:18.760 topped it off. Exactly, and they could have said, well, no, 1151 01:02:18.800 --> 01:02:21.000 we don't want to go from Singapore to Sydney. 1152 01:02:21.019 --> 01:02:22.559 We will pay the extra money to go to Sydney. 1153 01:02:22.579 --> 01:02:24.840 I reckon if they'd have rang the chairman of the 1154 01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:27.900 clubs and said, by the way, you know your halfback 1155 01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:29.920 that you pay your wages for? He's going to be 1156 01:02:29.960 --> 01:02:32.619 flying cattle class 47 hours around the world. 1157 01:02:33.579 --> 01:02:36.019 I don't know because I don't think so, Lee, because 1158 01:02:36.119 --> 01:02:38.320 I think the clubs, they're not really that, they're focused 1159 01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:38.860 on themselves. 1160 01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:40.519 They're not really that worried. 1161 01:02:40.539 --> 01:02:42.780 They need to get a grip because like I said earlier, 1162 01:02:43.239 --> 01:02:45.860 there's more kids walking around with NRL jerseys. 1163 01:02:46.909 --> 01:02:50.050 But that's why the structure has to change because the 1164 01:02:50.090 --> 01:02:53.130 clubs run the sport in England and that system has 1165 01:02:53.150 --> 01:02:53.570 to change. 1166 01:02:53.610 --> 01:02:55.489 We need a new administration. 1167 01:02:55.510 --> 01:02:59.170 We need the status quo to be changed and that 1168 01:02:59.389 --> 01:03:01.789 is only going to come with an NRL partnership. 1169 01:03:04.449 --> 01:03:10.320 Well, that's the starting process. You know, I don't necessarily 1170 01:03:10.340 --> 01:03:15.079 think the NRL partnership is the magic bullet, but it's 1171 01:03:15.099 --> 01:03:16.300 better than what we've got now. 1172 01:03:17.239 --> 01:03:19.440 I'm saying it's the best option on the table. 1173 01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:22.780 I'm not saying, look, the NRL could come in five, 1174 01:03:22.820 --> 01:03:25.230 ten years, nothing could be better, things could be worse. 1175 01:03:25.329 --> 01:03:30.039 There's no guarantee it's going to work. But, as you've said, 1176 01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:32.199 you go back to frame in the future all these things, 1177 01:03:32.260 --> 01:03:36.639 the 70s, you know, what has worked. When change has 1178 01:03:36.659 --> 01:03:40.510 been offered, it's been watered down. And even, you know, 1179 01:03:40.530 --> 01:03:42.449 you can even argue, you know, the IMG stuff's been 1180 01:03:42.469 --> 01:03:44.469 watered down. But we also... The other point of that 1181 01:03:44.510 --> 01:03:48.210 was we recycled the same people. There's people in charge 1182 01:03:48.250 --> 01:03:51.130 in Super League who have been there for over 25 years. 1183 01:03:51.610 --> 01:03:53.679 You know, it's the same faces, the same people. 1184 01:03:54.619 --> 01:03:57.579 And, you know, people in the game more than 25 years, 1185 01:03:57.619 --> 01:03:59.059 you know, 30 or 40. 1186 01:03:59.059 --> 01:04:02.179 We need new administrators. We need a different. 1187 01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:02.380 Way of operating. 1188 01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:05.440 We're sat on a minor talent in England. Some of 1189 01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:08.579 the coaches, I'm telling you now, I've coached in Australia 1190 01:04:08.599 --> 01:04:11.170 for 20 years. I'm a coach, educator, consultant and all 1191 01:04:11.210 --> 01:04:14.670 those things. I'm

telling you now, I reckon I can 1192 01:04:14.730 --> 01:04:18.329 easily find 10 coaches in England that are better than 1193 01:04:18.489 --> 01:04:23.960 their 10 best Australian counterparts at certain levels. Just thinking 1194 01:04:23.980 --> 01:04:28.599 more depth. Because it's an intelligent country, the UK. 1195 01:04:29.679 --> 01:04:30.340 Yeah, definitely. 1196 01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:33.579 It's a very intelligent country. And I'm not saying Australia isn't, 1197 01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:36.980 but the depth of thought in England has always impressed 1198 01:04:37.019 --> 01:04:37.780 me with the coaches. 1199 01:04:38.989 --> 01:04:39.780 Always impressed me. 1200 01:04:40.900 --> 01:04:43.239 I think the interesting thing, and I tweeted this the 1201 01:04:43.260 --> 01:04:46.900 other day, that there's a lot of people unhappy and 1202 01:04:46.940 --> 01:04:49.920 fired up after England's exit. And it shows that a 1203 01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:52.280 lot of people care. A lot of people still do care. 1204 01:04:52.300 --> 01:04:55.880 They want the national teams to be better. But we 1205 01:04:55.920 --> 01:04:58.780 need to use that and we need to push through change. 1206 01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:02.460 Because if we don't, and, you know, you said earlier, 1207 01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:04.519 it was in the statement, you know, half a century, 1208 01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:08.559 you know, hasn't been a World Cup win since 1972. 1209 01:05:08.559 --> 01:05:11.780 haven't beaten in Australia in any game since 2006. That 1210 01:05:11.820 --> 01:05:14.800 is not going to change unless things do change. 1211 01:05:15.139 --> 01:05:19.610 You know, again, from studying the history of the... Myself, 1212 01:05:19.670 --> 01:05:22.369 Tony and Andrew are doing the evolution of the rules 1213 01:05:22.610 --> 01:05:25.309 now in our recordings. You won't hear them for another 1214 01:05:25.349 --> 01:05:27.920 four or five weeks. Rugby League History Podcast, if anybody 1215 01:05:27.960 --> 01:05:28.480 was asking. 1216 01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:36.460 Ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding, ding. Bingo card. But basically.... 1217 01:05:37.050 --> 01:05:41.079 You can trace Britain's failure back to the 50s and 60s. 1218 01:05:41.219 --> 01:05:44.840 That's when Australia won its first Ashes Series for 30 1219 01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:51.539 years in 1951, I think it was. Also around that time, 1220 01:05:51.559 --> 01:05:55.800 the governing bodies on both sides of the world were 1221 01:05:55.820 --> 01:05:58.360 debating how far back the players should go from the 1222 01:05:58.400 --> 01:06:00.150 play of the ball. There was no rules around it. 1223 01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:02.300 It was still essentially rugby union with the play of 1224 01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:05.219 the ball. And it was unlimited tackles. 1225 01:06:06.179 --> 01:06:06.579 Yeah. 1226 01:06:07.239 --> 01:06:09.800 So then there was a no-yard rule, there was a 1227 01:06:09.909 --> 01:06:12.710 five-yard rule, a three-yard rule, so on and so forth. 1228 01:06:13.369 --> 01:06:19.489 So in a nutshell, and very quickly, Britain, England, has 1229 01:06:19.590 --> 01:06:25.480 failed at Rugby League to topple Australia as soon as 1230 01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:29.420 we started keeping the players apart. So the minute we 1231 01:06:29.460 --> 01:06:33.889 had a five-yard or five-meter rule, and that was solidified 1232 01:06:33.949 --> 01:06:38.920 in the 60s, the rot started, but then the absolute 1233 01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:43.980 nail in it, the 1972 World Cup was played under 1234 01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:51.090 the four-tackle rule. And that was our last success. So 1235 01:06:51.110 --> 01:06:53.230 the six-tackle one's been a real nail in it. Now, 1236 01:06:54.309 --> 01:06:58.050 the difference in the game, once you start separating people, 1237 01:06:58.110 --> 01:07:02.170 is the amount of running we need to do. So 1238 01:07:02.269 --> 01:07:03.750 England have looked at that and gone, oh, we just 1239 01:07:03.769 --> 01:07:06.230 need to get fitter. No, but you also need to 1240 01:07:06.269 --> 01:07:08.869 get smarter as you run and you have to adapt 1241 01:07:08.909 --> 01:07:11.070 to the circumstances you're in. 1242 01:07:12.070 --> 01:07:14.300 And I think also, like, you know, the RFL with 1243 01:07:14.320 --> 01:07:17.159 this review, they're looking, you know, past great players to 1244 01:07:17.179 --> 01:07:19.400 help them. I think they need to be looking at, like, 1245 01:07:19.460 --> 01:07:22.179 what Ireland's been doing in rugby union, how they used 1246 01:07:22.199 --> 01:07:24.579 to get flogged by the All Blacks and now they 1247 01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:27.480 beat the All Blacks regularly, you know, and they dominate 1248 01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:31.289 Six Nations, you know. Someone like Andy Farrell. he's something 1249 01:07:31.309 --> 01:07:33.610 i'd be getting reviewed and then you look at you 1250 01:07:33.630 --> 01:07:37.239 look at even the socceroos um in australian football you 1251 01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:39.940 know what they did in the 90s with the ios 1252 01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:42.380 system and how they got into the world cup and 1253 01:07:42.400 --> 01:07:44.280 then how they managed to get out of you know 1254 01:07:44.300 --> 01:07:46.639 the first world cup in 32 years they had all 1255 01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:48.780 these players who were playing in the best leagues in 1256 01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:51.260 the world in the premier league in syria you know 1257 01:07:51.280 --> 01:07:52.099 there's things that can. 1258 01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:54.969 Be done how norway how norway gets your world cup 1259 01:07:54.989 --> 01:07:56.929 with a Exactly, Iceland. 1260 01:07:57.110 --> 01:08:02.300 Iceland beating England in the Euros in 2016. There are 1261 01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:06.139 examples of countries who have less players, less resources, but 1262 01:08:06.179 --> 01:08:08.579

they maximise what they do, and then they can go 1263 01:08:08.619 --> 01:08:11.340 and beat nations with more resources, more players. 1264 01:08:11.719 --> 01:08:14.010 It is possible. There is a bit of a defeatist attitude, 1265 01:08:14.030 --> 01:08:14.840 but it is possible. 1266 01:08:15.210 --> 01:08:17.649 So basically England failed in this tournament because when the 1267 01:08:17.710 --> 01:08:23.460 pressure situations were on, they reverted to type. And your 1268 01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:26.500 type is practiced under pressure. So when it's pressure tested, 1269 01:08:26.960 --> 01:08:29.859 it's not pressure tested enough in the English system, full stop. 1270 01:08:30.460 --> 01:08:33.569 But Lee, we watched the Astros last year. You watched it, 1271 01:08:33.619 --> 01:08:36.220 I watched it. We talked about it on the podcast 1272 01:08:36.260 --> 01:08:39.319 for weeks before, weeks afterwards. Anyone who watched the Astros 1273 01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:40.859 knew what was going to happen in this World Cup. 1274 01:08:40.899 --> 01:08:43.640 Anyone who didn't, and part of this is to do 1275 01:08:43.659 --> 01:08:45.180 with the media in the UK, there is a lot 1276 01:08:45.199 --> 01:08:48.890 of denial, there's a lot of delusion about where the 1277 01:08:48.899 --> 01:08:51.289 game is and where the national team sits. 1278 01:08:51.859 --> 01:08:52.619 And all these things. 1279 01:08:53.220 --> 01:08:59.109 And until that changes, nothing will change either. Right. No 1280 01:08:59.149 --> 01:08:59.770 more questions. 1281 01:08:59.810 --> 01:09:04.119 You say exclusive by john davidson this week international rugby 1282 01:09:04.140 --> 01:09:08.119 league chair tony grant has hailed the opening rounds troy 1283 01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:11.920 grant that's what i said troy grant didn't her no 1284 01:09:11.939 --> 01:09:14.949 he said tony oh well tony's a good lad Troy 1285 01:09:14.989 --> 01:09:16.989 Grant has hailed the opening rounds of the 2026 Rugby 1286 01:09:17.229 --> 01:09:19.329 League World Cup and says the sport is now in 1287 01:09:19.369 --> 01:09:23.630 a favourable situation to grow. I'm just paraphrasing. After two 1288 01:09:23.670 --> 01:09:26.449 rounds of the World Cup, total attendances have grown 34% 1289 01:09:26.449 --> 01:09:31.180 from the 2017 tournament in Australia. Television ratings up 52% 1290 01:09:31.180 --> 01:09:35.659 now because it's more on free-to-air. He said he couldn't 1291 01:09:35.699 --> 01:09:38.260 be happier with how the World Cup was tracking so far. 1292 01:09:38.300 --> 01:09:41.859 Then he said, helps build the anticipation and week one 1293 01:09:41.899 --> 01:09:44.699 delivered it was box office. I think He's drinking some 1294 01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:48.779 Kool-Aid there. The engagement of the fans throughout the grounds 1295 01:09:48.840 --> 01:09:53.609 and via the broadcast numbers was just astonishing. The action 1296 01:09:53.670 --> 01:09:59.229 on the field has

certainly been spectacular. Fiji was spectacular 1297 01:09:59.260 --> 01:10:00.960 the other day against New Zealand, Mr. 1298 01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:01.239 Grant. 1299 01:10:02.340 --> 01:10:05.090 And there's more of that to come. But I love 1300 01:10:05.130 --> 01:10:07.210 this at the end. They've pulled their head out of 1301 01:10:07.229 --> 01:10:09.989 the sand of some old administrative thinking in reference to 1302 01:10:10.029 --> 01:10:12.850 the NRL. You could tell he was buttering up Peter 1303 01:10:12.869 --> 01:10:15.810 Volandis in what he was saying. They've been inventive, and 1304 01:10:15.850 --> 01:10:18.539 not only Peter Volandis needs a lot of credit for that, 1305 01:10:18.619 --> 01:10:22.659 but he's got a wonderful team, very visionary commissioners that 1306 01:10:22.739 --> 01:10:26.560 sit around them, that have the game's best interests at heart. 1307 01:10:26.779 --> 01:10:29.520 They're not driven by their own self-interest. They're driven by 1308 01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:32.939 the game's interests. And that's genuine. And they bring that 1309 01:10:32.979 --> 01:10:36.260 to the International Rugby League board in their representation too. 1310 01:10:36.880 --> 01:10:38.939 And we're learning a lot from them and we're coming 1311 01:10:39.000 --> 01:10:41.880 off a low base from the International Rugby League perspective 1312 01:10:41.899 --> 01:10:45.239 a couple of years of COVID. Essentially on the brink 1313 01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:48.340 of insolvency. So we've had to rebuild from the ground up. 1314 01:10:48.979 --> 01:10:51.000 But I really feel like we've got the window tar 1315 01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:53.439 back and it's all upside as long as we execute 1316 01:10:53.520 --> 01:10:56.979 it well. Our vision is to continue to grow the game. 1317 01:10:57.020 --> 01:11:00.149 But you have to, when you renovate anything, Start from 1318 01:11:00.229 --> 01:11:03.609 scratch and you have to do it sustainably and sensibly. Look, 1319 01:11:03.810 --> 01:11:06.350 I absolutely hear and understand the viewpoints being made about 1320 01:11:06.369 --> 01:11:09.100 the number of teams. I understand the disappointment because people 1321 01:11:09.119 --> 01:11:11.960 are passionate. But the reality is if we kept it 1322 01:11:11.979 --> 01:11:14.020 the same model, there would be no World Cup because 1323 01:11:14.079 --> 01:11:17.479 we wouldn't be able to afford to put one on. Ultimately, 1324 01:11:17.500 --> 01:11:20.619 do we get back to 16 teams at some stage? Potentially, 1325 01:11:20.659 --> 01:11:23.680 do we look at other concepts? Do we become more entrepreneurial? 1326 01:11:24.300 --> 01:11:28.829 We've just started our World Series concept. More investment into 1327 01:11:28.909 --> 01:11:31.250 it as part of our strategic plan to also give 1328 01:11:31.270 --> 01:11:35.029 another legitimate tournament a more competitive opportunity at that level. 1329 01:11:35.640 --> 01:11:38.399 There has also been criticism about the long travel times 1330 01:11:38.439 --> 01:11:41.140 that England and France have faced getting to Australia for 1331 01:11:41.159 --> 01:11:44.920 the World Cup. England reportedly took 44 hours to get 1332 01:11:44.960 --> 01:11:46.880 to Perth while some of the France team had a 1333 01:11:46.899 --> 01:11:50.390 50-hour trip. Look, he said, the International Rugby League wasn't 1334 01:11:50.439 --> 01:11:53.529 involved in any of the travel arrangements. So the RFL 1335 01:11:53.710 --> 01:11:57.239 aren't and the International Rugby League aren't. So when those 1336 01:11:57.279 --> 01:11:59.960 concerns were raised, I just asked the question. So the 1337 01:11:59.979 --> 01:12:03.760 countries themselves, through an agency, did their bookings, talking to 1338 01:12:03.779 --> 01:12:07.539 the local organising committee, the NRL. We've just got to 1339 01:12:07.579 --> 01:12:10.560 get England stopping going backwards and to hold and continue 1340 01:12:11.100 --> 01:12:12.970 to improve to lead the way. And we need the 1341 01:12:13.130 --> 01:12:16.609 RFL to replicate the investment strategy, not necessarily the quantum 1342 01:12:16.649 --> 01:12:19.750 of money, into the nations that have the interest and 1343 01:12:19.789 --> 01:12:22.710 accessibility to the Super League, like the NRL has done 1344 01:12:22.770 --> 01:12:24.890 here in New Zealand, now in Papua New Guinea, as 1345 01:12:24.909 --> 01:12:28.649 they have done across the nation. with expansion, they've got 1346 01:12:28.670 --> 01:12:31.029 to open their eyes. The RFL has got to get 1347 01:12:31.069 --> 01:12:32.989 their heads out of the sand. And frankly, they've got 1348 01:12:33.029 --> 01:12:34.930 to get their heads out of their arses for a 1349 01:12:34.970 --> 01:12:38.189 lot of their old time thinking because it's not working 1350 01:12:38.229 --> 01:12:39.050 in the modern world. 1351 01:12:41.260 --> 01:12:45.420 Thanks, Troy. You like that last part about the, I 1352 01:12:45.439 --> 01:12:47.079 love that. I love that at the end. Yeah, that 1353 01:12:47.119 --> 01:12:47.479 was good. 1354 01:12:48.640 --> 01:12:52.199 Um, and I look, I do love how everybody's trying 1355 01:12:52.300 --> 01:12:55.060 to wash the hands of anything bad that's happened in 1356 01:12:55.079 --> 01:12:59.770 the game. It's somebody else's fault. So Mr. Nolan was 1357 01:12:59.810 --> 01:13:01.689 saying a lot of things out of our control, and 1358 01:13:01.710 --> 01:13:04.390 that's basically the theme of that as well from Mr. 1359 01:13:04.430 --> 01:13:06.869 Grant. Yeah. 1360 01:13:07.590 --> 01:13:09.729 And in terms of his saying some of the opening 1361 01:13:09.750 --> 01:13:12.170 games were outstanding, well, I thought there was one that 1362 01:13:12.189 --> 01:13:14.710 was outstanding. That was Australia and New Zealand. The rest 1363 01:13:14.750 --> 01:13:17.449 were all one-sided bash-ups, basically. 1364 01:13:17.479 -->

01:13:21.880 So, yeah. Your thoughts on that? You did the story. 1365 01:13:22.899 --> 01:13:25.960 Yeah, I mean, I interviewed Troy, I think it was. 1366 01:13:27.140 --> 01:13:30.640 ahead of the Tonga Lebanon game at, uh, Combank, uh, 1367 01:13:30.720 --> 01:13:33.380 round two of the world cup. Um, but I agree 1368 01:13:33.399 --> 01:13:35.520 with some of the things he said there. I probably 1369 01:13:35.739 --> 01:13:38.210 questioned some of them, but, um, it was an interview. 1370 01:13:38.270 --> 01:13:40.909 It was a straight news story. So I was giving 1371 01:13:40.949 --> 01:13:45.090 him his opinion. Um, yeah, look, I think the numbers, 1372 01:13:45.670 --> 01:13:47.630 we can't argue about the numbers. We're comparing them to 2017, 1373 01:13:47.630 --> 01:13:50.369 which is obviously the last world cup. And it shows 1374 01:13:50.409 --> 01:13:54.050 the growth of rugby league in Australia. Um, A few 1375 01:13:54.090 --> 01:13:56.189 people in Super League team think, oh, well, rugby league's 1376 01:13:56.210 --> 01:13:57.949 the number one sport and all this, but it isn't 1377 01:13:58.550 --> 01:14:00.970 the number one sport in a lot of markets in 1378 01:14:01.010 --> 01:14:04.390 Australia and it has intense competition from other sports. So 1379 01:14:05.029 --> 01:14:06.989 it's great that ratings are up. It's great that crowds 1380 01:14:07.029 --> 01:14:09.529 are up. It's great that this tournament's going to make money. No, 1381 01:14:09.609 --> 01:14:12.770 everything is not perfect. The things that could have been 1382 01:14:12.789 --> 01:14:17.189 done better, but when is anything perfectly? And I think 1383 01:14:17.229 --> 01:14:20.729 he is right about that. the renovation, the bit about 1384 01:14:20.750 --> 01:14:23.670 International Rugby League. People seem to forget the last World 1385 01:14:23.689 --> 01:14:26.649 Cup had major issues, lost a lot of money. The 1386 01:14:26.770 --> 01:14:31.390 RFL still owes the IRL, I think, 400 grand or 1387 01:14:31.390 --> 01:14:32.020 300 grand. 1388 01:14:32.029 --> 01:14:36.199 Yeah, so I. 1389 01:14:35.920 --> 01:14:39.239 Think this World Cup, obviously it's not over yet, but 1390 01:14:39.659 --> 01:14:42.000 it looks like one of the semifinals has sold out already. 1391 01:14:42.380 --> 01:14:45.520 I don't know if it's the Newcastle one. Hopefully, I 1392 01:14:45.560 --> 01:14:48.340 think the final is going to sell out. hopefully we 1393 01:14:48.380 --> 01:14:50.279 can build on all this, you know, all the positives 1394 01:14:50.340 --> 01:14:52.920 of the World Cup. We can take learnings and improve, 1395 01:14:52.939 --> 01:14:55.000 but hopefully we build on this. And in 2030, it's 1396 01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:59.699 an even bigger and better World Cup. Let's hope. Let's 1397 01:14:59.739 --> 01:15:00.270 cross our fingers. 1398 01:15:00.310 --> 01:15:02.489 I've given myself Tweets of the Week, John. That's a 1399 01:15:02.529 --> 01:15:04.729 hat trick now this year of Tweets of the Week. 1400 01:15:04.810 --> 01:15:08.029 On recent pods with Johnny Davidson, I've been confidently saying 1401 01:15:08.109 --> 01:15:11.149 South Africa thrashed Japan in the 99. We'll be World Cup. 1402 01:15:11.229 --> 01:15:14.520 It's simply not even close to being true. their biggest 1403 01:15:14.560 --> 01:15:18.260 loss in that one was 64 15 to wales they've 1404 01:15:18.279 --> 01:15:22.720 lost 75 3 in 2003 91 3 in 2007 and 1405 01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:26.850 83 7 in 2011 but you get my point so 1406 01:15:26.869 --> 01:15:29.109 yeah so i just want to throw that in to 1407 01:15:29.149 --> 01:15:32.590 say those tales i've been saying about japan getting battered 1408 01:15:32.630 --> 01:15:34.970 in that world cup was complete and utter bullshit and 1409 01:15:35.029 --> 01:15:36.520 i've fabricated the whole thing. 1410 01:15:37.500 --> 01:15:39.979 Just um On England P & G, we've not really 1411 01:15:40.039 --> 01:15:41.920 analysed that game, Lee. Do you want to analyse that 1412 01:15:41.939 --> 01:15:42.430 game now? 1413 01:15:42.470 --> 01:15:44.289 I did when I said I was talking about how 1414 01:15:44.329 --> 01:15:48.100 they cracked under pressure. I feel like they've done it. 1415 01:15:49.050 --> 01:15:49.569 Yeah, okay. 1416 01:15:49.590 --> 01:15:51.649 Well, just briefly on that game, I mean, obviously I 1417 01:15:51.689 --> 01:15:55.199 was there. I thought the first half went perfectly for England, what, 24-0. 1418 01:15:55.229 --> 01:16:00.550 And obviously everything went wrong. Second half, and as you said, 1419 01:16:00.569 --> 01:16:04.189 they cracked under pressure. But even going into that game, 1420 01:16:04.750 --> 01:16:07.170 did anyone really, I mean, England or GB, I think 1421 01:16:07.189 --> 01:16:10.750 the most they've ever beaten PNG was 50 points, 40 1422 01:16:10.750 --> 01:16:12.529 and 50 points. Did anyone really think they were going 1423 01:16:12.550 --> 01:16:13.210 to beat them by 68? 1424 01:16:13.210 --> 01:16:15.670 The problem is the way they started, they were on 1425 01:16:15.710 --> 01:16:16.270 course to. 1426 01:16:17.949 --> 01:16:22.600 Yeah, but I don't think that was ever going to happen. 1427 01:16:23.020 --> 01:16:27.199 I didn't think they were going to beat France by 1428 01:16:27.239 --> 01:16:28.199 the score. 1429 01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:30.920 Some of the players would have gone, oh shit, we 1430 01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:35.260 might actually achieve this. We might be one of the 1431 01:16:35.300 --> 01:16:39.579 first sides to do this. That was in the ashes 1432 01:16:39.619 --> 01:16:41.760 last year. I remember Jack Wells making a big break 1433 01:16:41.800 --> 01:16:44.880 down the right. I remember the Wakefield winger on the 1434 01:16:44.939 --> 01:16:48.810 left making a big break and it was almost like 1435 01:16:48.829 --> 01:16:53.710 they went shit we're busting the Aussies here and then 1436 01:16:53.729 -->

01:16:55.649 they got in at half time thought about it and 1437 01:16:55.689 --> 01:16:58.149 next thing Rhys Walsh went 80 metres down the field 1438 01:16:58.210 --> 01:17:01.020 and they hadn't woken up so yeah that's what it 1439 01:17:01.060 --> 01:17:04.619 is it's psychological it's completely psychological. 1440 01:17:04.449 --> 01:17:08.010 Well, I did ask Brian McDermott this before the World 1441 01:17:08.029 --> 01:17:10.270 Cup about the need for, was he going to bring 1442 01:17:10.289 --> 01:17:11.149 in a psychologist? 1443 01:17:11.210 --> 01:17:12.289 And he said no. 1444 01:17:13.010 --> 01:17:16.609 I don't know if it's a psychologist you need. I mean, 1445 01:17:16.930 --> 01:17:19.609 some psychologists just don't get it. I mean, it's about 1446 01:17:19.989 --> 01:17:23.600 the ability. It's about having the discipline to do things 1447 01:17:23.640 --> 01:17:26.439 you don't want to do all the time, regardless of 1448 01:17:26.479 --> 01:17:26.850 the weather. 1449 01:17:28.039 --> 01:17:30.640 Yeah. But you could say you could look at elite 1450 01:17:30.920 --> 01:17:32.859 athletes and sports teams across the world, and a lot 1451 01:17:32.899 --> 01:17:36.369 of them do enlist athletes. sports psychologists to help them. 1452 01:17:36.930 --> 01:17:40.670 Not all of them have 59 years of failure to. 1453 01:17:42.289 --> 01:17:42.829 Encounter. 1454 01:17:43.630 --> 01:17:47.590 A good coach is a good psychologist. I don't know 1455 01:17:47.630 --> 01:17:49.710 if Wayne Bennett used one with the England team, but 1456 01:17:51.189 --> 01:17:54.350 I know that if you listen to what the players 1457 01:17:54.390 --> 01:17:57.960 said about it, they said that it was you've got 1458 01:17:57.979 --> 01:18:00.000 no time to think about an error you make, just 1459 01:18:00.060 --> 01:18:01.880 concentrate on the next thing. It was just all about 1460 01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:03.960 focusing on the next action. And because it was Wayne 1461 01:18:03.979 --> 01:18:07.180 Bennett and all the premierships he'd won, the players bought in. 1462 01:18:07.930 --> 01:18:10.390 Yeah, I think Wayne Bennett's coaching philosophy is very much 1463 01:18:10.729 --> 01:18:12.909 sit at the back of the bus, you know, befriend 1464 01:18:12.949 --> 01:18:15.050 the players, be a father figure, but, you know, play 1465 01:18:15.090 --> 01:18:17.369 cards with them and keep them calm and happy and 1466 01:18:17.409 --> 01:18:19.300 collected and you'll get the best footy out of them. 1467 01:18:19.340 --> 01:18:23.180 And that's worked for the majority of his career, hasn't it? Yeah. 1468 01:18:24.329 --> 01:18:26.909 I don't think you need a rocket science degree for it. Right, 1469 01:18:26.949 --> 01:18:30.539 let's do some tips. Women's Rugby League World Cup, New 1470 01:18:30.579 --> 01:18:36.020 Zealand play against Samoa. Betting odds not much between them? 1471 01:18:36.859 --> 01:18:42.659 No. Well, we didn't talk about the England-Fetu Samoa game 1472 01:18:42.970 --> 01:18:45.710 or about the women's game. We've been going over it 1473 01:18:45.750 --> 01:18:48.489 for 22 minutes, John. Yeah, I'll just briefly say I 1474 01:18:48.529 --> 01:18:50.350 thought Samoa were very dominant. You don't have to edit 1475 01:18:50.390 --> 01:18:56.340 this right so England's England's World Cup A defeat was 1476 01:18:56.399 --> 01:18:58.800 not a surprise. I've been really impressed with some old women. 1477 01:19:00.359 --> 01:19:03.800 Covered every game of theirs. Frank Pritchard, former NRL high 1478 01:19:03.819 --> 01:19:07.489 FC prop, done a great job. I don't think they 1479 01:19:07.510 --> 01:19:09.270 will beat New Zealand. I think the Kiwis will just 1480 01:19:09.310 --> 01:19:12.909 have it, but they've done phenomenally well, and I'd love 1481 01:19:12.930 --> 01:19:14.010 to see them in the World Cup final. 1482 01:19:14.069 --> 01:19:17.170 So I hope they get up over the Kiwifans. 1483 01:19:17.689 --> 01:19:19.869 Now, the betting odds are a bit different for Australia 1484 01:19:19.909 --> 01:19:23.619 versus Fiji. You can get $ 41, so 41 to 1. 1485 01:19:24.279 --> 01:19:28.310 for Fiji beating Australia, the Jilarus, who must have had 1486 01:19:28.350 --> 01:19:30.590 an inquest this week after conceding a try. 1487 01:19:33.170 --> 01:19:34.909 Yeah, it would have been fair odds for them to 1488 01:19:34.949 --> 01:19:36.689 go through the tournament without conceding a try. 1489 01:19:36.729 --> 01:19:40.270 Yes, I think the Jilarus will win by how much? 1490 01:19:40.340 --> 01:19:45.619 I'm not sure, but let's say 40. Okay, let's get 1491 01:19:45.640 --> 01:19:48.560 into the meat and potatoes now. New Zealand play Tonga 1492 01:19:48.619 --> 01:19:54.949 on Saturday in Newcastle. Um, A Newcastle, a Newcastle, New 1493 01:19:54.970 --> 01:19:56.369 Zealand the favourites for the comp, do you. 1494 01:19:56.310 --> 01:20:02.510 Think, John? On what we've seen, probably marginally, yes. They've 1495 01:20:02.529 --> 01:20:05.180 got the best pack, haven't they? I think they've got 1496 01:20:05.189 --> 01:20:07.600 the best pack, and I think they've had the most 1497 01:20:07.640 --> 01:20:11.079 settled spine while Australia's flitted around and changed. And I 1498 01:20:11.100 --> 01:20:13.640 think they've also got genuine wingers in there. They've got 1499 01:20:13.680 --> 01:20:16.630 players in the right positions. I think– is Ponga going 1500 01:20:16.649 --> 01:20:18.189 to play in this one? That's the big one. I 1501 01:20:18.189 --> 01:20:20.430 know he's been back training. He's on the extended bench. 1502 01:20:20.729 --> 01:20:21.729 Yeah. 1503 01:20:22.149 --> 01:20:25.609 That's the real– I think if Ponga plays and is 1504 01:20:25.649 --> 01:20:27.550 not hampered by injury, I think New Zealand will win. 1505 01:20:27.930 --> 01:20:31.250 I think if they don't, I can see– and you 1506 01:20:31.289 --> 01:20:35.149 know what? I said

this on the last pod, and 1507 01:20:35.189 --> 01:20:37.939 I've said it online, I'd love to see a Tonga-Samoa final, 1508 01:20:37.960 --> 01:20:42.399 World Cup final. I'd love to see Tonga beat New 1509 01:20:42.439 --> 01:20:44.340 Zealand and Samoa beat Australia, and I think that would 1510 01:20:44.359 --> 01:20:46.060 be fantastic for the sport. 1511 01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:52.579 But, yeah, I can't really pull apart these two teams. 1512 01:20:54.140 --> 01:20:56.760 I think New Zealand may be a slight advantage in 1513 01:20:56.800 --> 01:21:01.680 terms of just history, but I think Tonga, they've beaten England, 1514 01:21:01.699 --> 01:21:06.100 they've beaten Samoa, They looked very good on Sunday night. 1515 01:21:06.859 --> 01:21:07.880 I think they can definitely do it. 1516 01:21:08.399 --> 01:21:11.550 I think it'll be a nail-biter, an absolute nail-biter. Yes, 1517 01:21:11.880 --> 01:21:12.699 I agree. 1518 01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:17.880 Australia versus Sam Moller on Sunday. Australia have gone with 1519 01:21:17.939 --> 01:21:23.310 Reece Walsh at full-back, Tom Dearden at seven. So I 1520 01:21:23.329 --> 01:21:25.250 don't think any of us necessarily have a problem with 1521 01:21:25.270 --> 01:21:28.789 those selections, but the people left out, James Tedesco at full-back, 1522 01:21:29.810 --> 01:21:34.840 Sam Walker, Premiership winning half. And I'm a huge Tom Deardam. 1523 01:21:34.539 --> 01:21:37.279 Fan, don't get me wrong. Yeah, no, I think Tom 1524 01:21:37.319 --> 01:21:40.359 Deardam is a fantastic player. I think if you're picking 1525 01:21:40.399 --> 01:21:42.779 on club form this year in the NRL, you pick 1526 01:21:42.800 --> 01:21:44.300 Tedesco and Walker, don't you? 1527 01:21:44.340 --> 01:21:44.979 Without a doubt. 1528 01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:52.720 Yeah, Australia have not been convincing all tournament. Even, you know, 1529 01:21:52.739 --> 01:21:54.359 they were lucky to win the first game. I thought 1530 01:21:54.380 --> 01:21:57.460 New Zealand deserved it. But in saying all that, the 1531 01:21:57.479 --> 01:21:59.180 Kangaroos just have that knack, don't they? 1532 01:21:59.199 --> 01:21:59.680 They haven't won. 1533 01:22:00.640 --> 01:22:04.399 the majority of World Cups by not producing when it matters. 1534 01:22:05.439 --> 01:22:09.380 And I think they've still got that in them. Samoa, 1535 01:22:09.439 --> 01:22:11.260 I think, have got a few weaknesses. 1536 01:22:11.279 --> 01:22:12.359 I think. 1537 01:22:13.850 --> 01:22:19.210 The spine, the Australian spine is still... better than the 1538 01:22:19.229 --> 01:22:22.130 Samoans buying I think Samoa's probably got the advantage in 1539 01:22:22.149 --> 01:22:24.649 the front row and maybe across the pack but I 1540 01:22:24.869 --> 01:22:27.869 think the Kangaroos can still produce what it matters and 1541 01:22:27.890 --> 01:22:30.300 I think they will win that game but again as 1542 01:22:30.340 --> 01:22:32.699 I said I'd love to see a Samoan upset that 1543 01:22:32.739 --> 01:22:38.680 would be such a huge story Samoa knocking out Australia. 1544 01:22:39.279 --> 01:22:42.279 My tip I'm going to say Samoa are going to 1545 01:22:42.319 --> 01:22:46.270 beat Australia but I'm going to say New Zealand are 1546 01:22:46.289 --> 01:22:47.369 going to beat Tonga. 1547 01:22:49.180 --> 01:22:53.460 Yeah. Well, Samoa knocking, I'm trying to, well, you would 1548 01:22:53.479 --> 01:22:56.560 know in your podcast, has Australia, well, has Australia ever 1549 01:22:56.680 --> 01:22:58.300 not made the World Cup final maybe once? 1550 01:22:58.979 --> 01:23:01.300 Not since 1954 have they failed. 1551 01:23:01.340 --> 01:23:05.979 Yeah. So that would be, in terms of stories in 1552 01:23:06.279 --> 01:23:08.220 the history of rugby league, that would be just giant, 1553 01:23:08.239 --> 01:23:11.869 almost one of the biggest stories ever. So look, as 1554 01:23:11.909 --> 01:23:16.109 a journalist, I'm all for independent news values and angles. 1555 01:23:16.189 --> 01:23:18.069 So let's, let's see. 1556 01:23:20.979 --> 01:23:24.520 People should know that we've only got two more Super 1557 01:23:24.539 --> 01:23:28.310 League 360 podcasts for the season as well before we 1558 01:23:28.359 --> 01:23:33.789 have a hiatus which is sounds like an animal a hyena. 1559 01:23:33.109 --> 01:23:39.010 A hiatus I call it a hiatus so we'll do 1560 01:23:39.170 --> 01:23:41.409 one after the semi-finals and one after the final then 1561 01:23:41.449 --> 01:23:46.850 we'll have a little break for the Yuletide festivities where 1562 01:23:46.890 --> 01:23:50.069 can people get you John? probably in bed if they 1563 01:23:50.109 --> 01:23:52.390 want to yes i'll be going back to bed soon 1564 01:23:52.409 --> 01:23:54.970 they can get me uh on x or twitter on 1565 01:23:55.090 --> 01:23:57.729 johnny d davidson and get me on instagram at johnny 1566 01:23:58.270 --> 01:24:01.720 d davidson rl on facebook with john david john davidson 1567 01:24:01.739 --> 01:24:06.119 journalist on patreon at rugby league hub.com long reads and 1568 01:24:06.159 --> 01:24:09.039 i will be in in the eye again tomorrow uh 1569 01:24:09.800 --> 01:24:13.649 with that six point plan to Fix English rugby league, 1570 01:24:13.670 --> 01:24:15.489 which obviously we've discussed in the podcast, but you can 1571 01:24:15.550 --> 01:24:17.729 read it in depth. It should be in the paper 1572 01:24:17.770 --> 01:24:19.260 tomorrow and online tomorrow. 1573 01:24:19.479 --> 01:24:21.600 I just want to thank people for the questions because 1574 01:24:21.640 --> 01:24:24.159 that basically gave us our script today. 1575 01:24:24.859 --> 01:24:28.909 Yeah. We've been building this podcast all year, haven't we, Lee? 1576 01:24:28.989 --> 01:24:32.699 And the numbers have gone up and the interaction. It's fantastic. 1577 01:24:32.720 --> 01:24:35.939 So I really want to thank everyone who writes in 1578 01:24:35.979 --> 01:24:36.619 and comments. 1579 01:24:36.979 --> 01:24:38.060 Yeah, it's been great. 1580 01:24:38.380 --> 01:24:40.140 People can get in touch with me at Rugby League 1581 01:24:40.199 --> 01:24:43.529 Coach Instagram and Facebook and at our old coach on 1582 01:24:43.550 --> 01:24:45.550 the net on X, but just message me on Instagram 1583 01:24:45.630 --> 01:24:47.550 and Facebook. I don't read all the other messages. 1584 01:24:48.390 --> 01:24:51.170 Nice one. And all the 58 other podcasts that you 1585 01:24:51.189 --> 01:24:54.949 do every week. Well, mate, you've either got it or 1586 01:24:54.989 --> 01:24:57.800 you haven't. The podcast whore, Lehigh Patterson. 1587 01:24:57.840 --> 01:25:01.729 Rugby League History Podcast, Rugby League Coach Podcast. And also 1588 01:25:01.789 --> 01:25:02.350 loose carry. 1589 01:25:02.369 --> 01:25:03.090 Ding, ding, ding. 1590 01:25:03.350 --> 01:25:04.960 Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.