Stubby Talks Transformation | Episode 5: Joe Hungerman의 전체 녹취록

And they're really trying to dig into the relationship side of continuous improvement and what that means. And I was lucky enough to go through their cohort and it was really eye opening because if you stay on LinkedIn for any longer than like five minutes, you notice that it's just a big platform to complain about leadership. You know, it's like every second or third post is. Dave Stubberfield: Thank you. Joe Hungerman: You know, complaining about leadership or people talking about how to get leaders to bend to your will. And it's, really shouldn't be that way. We should all be working as a team. So where CI has gone is we're kind of taking more of a change management approach and we're really trying to figure out, can we tackle the problem of relationships with software? And you know, this is something that we've struggled with in business for. you know, a couple of centuries since the industrial revolution. And we had to go through the bumps and bruises of scientific management and how, you know, we treat people as resources rather than, you know, as people, all people with a common goal. And when you treat people as resources, what you find is they don't get bought in, they don't get involved and they really have no, know, stake in the game. ⁓ just... Dave Stubberfield: . Okay. Joe Hungerman: And you can't sustain improvement that way. You have to have people that are passionate about the things that are doing. And the other side of that coin is leaders that talk a good game, but at the end of the day, it's just talk, you know, and it's still command and control and do as I say, you know, or else sort of thing. And we want to figure out a better way to do that. So, you know, we're really targeting kind of small to medium businesses right now, because I think that gives us a shorter. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Joe Hungerman: shorter line to the leadership to really kind of instill these ideas and see where they're at, because this platform is not going to be for everybody. If somebody just wants the command and control, then I don't see them getting much benefit out of this. But if they want to create a team that works together, that flows, iterates, that improves and sustains that improvement, well, then yeah, we're probably the right thing for you. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. I think there for me, the thing I take from that is what you're trying to create with CI is making positive change happen across the board, isn't it? You've mentioned there Six Sigma, Lean, Toyota production system. These are terms that some people are probably very familiar with, others maybe not. Where did your journey in this world start? Joe Hungerman: for sure. At the very beginning, it started when I was getting my bachelor's degree at Western Michigan University and integrated supply matrix management at the time is a really groundbreaking type of program where it combined the business side of supply chain and the engineering side. So, you know,

half my courses were in business and supply chain. The other half were in engineering, like materials engineering and industrial engineering and things like that. So. One of the courses I had to take was on improvement and we had to learn theory of constraints and lean concepts. know, everybody uses the terminology lean, but really it was all derived from Toyota and lean is just kind of a brand name that I think LEI came up with lean enterprise Institute. ⁓ it would, ⁓ craft sick, ⁓ John craft sick. was a MIT guy. think he was the first one that use the term lean. You know I got my first taste of this stuff back then and you know I went into the purchasing side of supply chain which didn't lend itself really to a lot of the types of improvements so I didn't have a lot of initial applications but as I Dave Stubberfield: . Joe Hungerman: For the of my career, I got up to the point, I was a purchasing supervisor and I was in a manufacturing facility that was just all over the place. mean, it was, you know, the schedulers were handwriting schedules every 15 minutes because we couldn't keep up and it was just crazy. you know, that had a lot of effect on purchasing and I was also leading the material handlers. So, you know, Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Joe Hungerman: It was something where the material handlers were coming up to me daily, just complaining about how they got to move all the stuff around. And, you know, they never have a schedule. They never know what they're supposed to move where. And I'm like, well, from this perspective, what if we started trying to apply some of these improvement things? So I had a small team. was, ⁓ me and two other people, and we started reading books together. We started listening to books, audio books. started having a book club and. And bringing other areas of the plant at once they saw what we were doing. They got super interested. So we had the engineering manager that joined us and assembly manager and a bunch of other people. And we really kind of did a grassroots improvement thing and, you know, trying to instill all these concepts. eventually if, you know, I don't know how much of your, I'm guessing a lot of your listeners are kind of logistics, supply chain, manufacturing type. folks, but you know, a natural progression of improvement is finding and coming across scrum and agile concepts and software. And that too, like Six Sigma has like a bunch of dirty word connotations about it these days, but you know, was super interesting. And at the time I was just about to get married and my wife was getting her degree in software engineering. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Joe Hungerman: Um, so it just really caught my attention. So that just took me on a whole different direction. ended up leaving manufacturing, um, going to healthcare for a bit, uh, still working a little bit in supply chain, but mainly in data. Um, then I went and worked directly in software and led software teams and I had a passion for that. So, um, left my job working for a uh, software startup accelerator and said, you know what, want to try my own thing and just reflected on my career and looked at all the problems I had learning and finding all this stuff on continuous improvement and said, Hey, let me solve my own problem. know, maybe other people share that problem. Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Yeah, I think so. And I think that for me, what you've just said there is, think a lot of people associate the tools and techniques to manufacturing, to logistics, to supply chain, but they can be used in any walk of life. You can continually improve anything. And I think those principles, the tools, the techniques can be widely adopted. For me, I find that kind of education, that breakdown to say to people, you can do this just because you design stuff doesn't mean that you can't apply the principles. So yeah, that's really interesting. You mentioned improvement theater ⁓ and kind of the difference between real change. What in your view, Joe, kind of the behaviors or patterns that sort of teams seem to be stuck in kind of the superficial activity rather than meaningful improvement. Joe Hungerman: You can find this out pretty quickly. Like if you walk into wherever teams are working and there are just millions of KPIs wallpapered everywhere. Well, that's improvement theater. We're, you know, it's, you know, going through the motions. Leaders go to the board and say, Hey, we're doing this stuff. Pat us on the back. doing great. We're cutting all this cost, but you know, it's It's essentially just, you know, working towards all of these metrics and all these metrics end up stumbling over each other. And you really don't progress. Yes, you have some superficial numbers and, know, but nobody pays attention to how it affects the system as a whole. So, you know, you, you have all the soft cost savings and hard cost savings. So, ⁓ it's all over the place. And then. Once this program kind of, once you get all the low hanging fruit, then all of sudden, you know, that's when you really have to dig in and, and, and do the work. But that's when a lot of teams kind of just give up on it because some other priority has come along and now it's something new. And I'm sure tons of people are just used to that, you know, strategy shifts year to year. And these days you never know. You know, when I worked in healthcare, the healthcare leadership turns over like every three years and everybody wants to bring in their own thing, you know, and that's, it switches constantly, but you know, the improvement theater aspect is, you know, people getting in front of a crowd saying, Hey, this is what we're doing, Pat us on the back, but never really paying attention to whether that improvement is sustainable or whether it actually messed something up down the line. Dave Stubberfield: Yep. Joe Hungerman: I mean, in systems thinking you have these concepts of balancing loops and reinforcing loops and every system, you

know, deals with these, these kind of laws. And every time you it's, you know, Newton's law, every action has a equal and opposite reaction while the system operates that way too. So if the purchasing department cuts out, you know, $2 million of cost out of the product. That's going to have an effect somewhere down the line because the supplier didn't wasn't charging you $2 million extra margin. You know, they're going to find their own ways to cut corners. And if you're not working the entire supply chain from a continuous improvement mindset, then you're essentially just going through the motions and just, you know, acting. You're not really doing. Dave Stubberfield: Yes. Yeah, I agree. think for me it's kind of doing things in isolation as well. You've got teams that kind of so focused on themselves that they go, if we change this and do this, that'd be great. But not knowing the knock-on effect or impact, like you say, and I think that when you've got the whole value stream or the end-to-end process, whatever you want to call it, you've got a joined up view and thinking that automation springs to mind for me. You get teams that go, we need to automate this part of the process. Joe Hungerman: Never. Yeah. Dave Stubberfield: but there could be four, five, six, maybe more different interactions or points that could be automated throughout the entire life cycle, that journey where you've got real impact that can be made. And a lot of people sort of go, ⁓ we'll automate that six months later down the line, or we should have automated that as well. We'll do that now. And it becomes more of a cost, more of a hindrance than help because you're just constantly. retrofitting stuff that should have been done from day one, right? Joe Hungerman: Automation is a crutch and people see shiny new automation and new technology. And this is coming from a guy that's building a software platform. You know, they jump at it. You know, they can't wait when you see this with AI these days, you know, but people don't understand how to apply it. It was the same thing back when ERP and MRP systems first, you know, gained a lot of traction back in the early eighties. ⁓ You know, people just threw these systems in place and expected them to solve all the problems. But, know, as Eli Goldratt kind of talked about in some of his, his lectures, you know, they didn't change the paradigm, you know, they just still did the same exact process just with technology instead of completely overhauling everything and figuring out what's the best way to do things using technology, not what's the best way technology can replace things. And that's kind of where CI is headed. We want to be an amplifier of human relationships and an amplifier of human productivity, not a replacement for it. You know, kind of counterintuitive because we need to make money. So we need people to buy the software, but at the same time, my own personal values are, you know, human first. So we want to help people

be more productive, be more. Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Yeah. Joe Hungerman: Enjoy work more, you know, not just set up all this automation and use the software just to, just to use it. Dave Stubberfield: Totally, and I think for me, my view on kind of any kind of change or improvement, continuous improvement, Six Sigma, whatever it might be, if the goal is to remove heads from an organization, straight away I'm misaligned with that ambition because for me it's how can you make things more effective and more productive, keeping as many people as you possibly can so that when automation comes in, you can re-skill, retrain these people in these new technologies and these new systems that... can really add value to the organization. think I see so many times organizations are quick to hit the button and go, right, let's get rid of 20 % of the head count. But then they see growth a year or two later down the line and go, well, we need these people back, but they've already moved on with their careers and it's too late at that point. You've then got to get new experience, new skills in, onboarding, training, all of these things that come into the mix that people don't calculate at the beginning and the impact that may have. Interesting you say about the kind of the human first thing. I'm massive on kind of emotional intelligence and how humans behave in changes. A lot of organizations create logical plans, say, right, this is what's gonna change first, then we're gonna do this, then we're gonna do that. But then surprised when that change doesn't stick. What's kind of the view in your eyes? how important the human side is versus the technical side and how leaders can act better on that front. Joe Hungerman: If the humans don't understand what they're doing and what the technology is doing, then you're really setting yourself up for failure later. People have to fully understand and I've gotten an even bigger concept this after, you know, my foray into chess and studying chess and you know, there it's, you you can memorise things but At the end of the day, you have to understand the concepts. If you don't understand the concepts, then you're just moving things around. And when that, when people turn over and people leave, people come in, it's going to be that much harder to onboard them. And. You know, if, if you don't have people that are able to explain these things and explain the way the technology works and why do we do it this way? And, and, and the how. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Joe Hungerman: Then you're really going to put yourself in a situation where the technology rules all and nobody knows what's going on. And I've all this over and over again with ERP systems. know, it's just nobody knows how to use them. Nobody knows what's going on with them. And it's a big mystery. then you have to bring in million dollar consultants to come in and train everybody. And it's just a nightmare. Dave Stubberfield: Mm. Joe Hungerman: I mean, that was something

else that CI was originally intended to do was reduce the reliance on consulting, you know, no offense, but. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. None taken. But it's interesting what you say there. I was talking to the managing director of a firm last year ⁓ who told me about a great CRM that he bought. Everything was bespoke and he put a lot of time and effort into it. ⁓ Actually got his people on the frontline that would be using it to get some input of what would be good to include on it, which was fantastic. The guys that were building it. then said, right, okay, that's ready to go. His team said, well, how do we use it? There was no training provided. So they reverted back to spreadsheets and back to how they were working before, because this new fancy system, they didn't understand it. And it's exactly what you said there. And I think so many times I see organizations that go, we're going to bring in this new fancy system. could be something that's readily available off the shelf. It could be bespoke. It could be from a market leader. It's the senior people that are in these conversations getting demos and going, okay, that looks good. That fits our budget and we can do this. Yeah. Brilliant. Fantastic. But the guys on the ground generally are left in the dark as to what's happening. And I find that so frustrating because when it comes to implementation, people go, well, hang on, we've got a system here that works. I mean, now we've got to find ways around because this doesn't work and that doesn't connect to that. And it's so frustrating, isn't it? Joe Hungerman: Yes, it's like somebody going out and paying 3000 quid. I hope I'm using that word correctly for a tuxedo and not getting a shave and a haircut. I mean, you're just, you're dressing up, but not really doing the extra work that's necessary. Dave Stubberfield: That's correct, yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah, totally. You mentioned systems thinking there as well. Can you walk us through how you see organizations as systems where structure, people, data, everything interacts and what leaders often overlook when it comes to systems thinking? Joe Hungerman: Such a loaded question. ⁓ So, you know, systems thinking pretty much everything in the universe is a system. You know, it doesn't matter how complex or simple, you know, I mean, you get down to the root of it. There's there's things that are just Dave Stubberfield: Hahaha Joe Hungerman: Not systems, but 99 % of the world is. And I've had this debate with somebody about whether an organization is truly a system or not. And in my mind, it is because something happening in one area of a system affects another area of the system, whether you know about it or not. And that is very true about manufacturing facilities and other organizations is, you know, we have all these silos. We have the finance department, have manufacturing, have ⁓ purchasing, we have all these different places that have their own goals and they do their own things without working together cross-functionally. And when you do that, you know, like I mentioned before about the purchasing and buying from, you know, a supplier saves costs. The impact of one area of a system is going to have an impact on the other, another area of the system. You just don't understand it. And I think a big problem is rooted in General Motors. ⁓ You know, they started this ⁓ activity based costing thing back in the early, early 1900s. And that has kind of ruined everything. Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Okay. Joe Hungerman: Because you have all of these like in a manufacturing facility, you have all of these cells and they have pieces of equipment and these pieces of equipment, somebody, you know, reduces the cost of running that by 10%. Okay. And they get pat on the back and they get a promotion, but that change increased the amount of time that it takes to assemble the product by 30%. Dave Stubberfield: Okay. ⁓ Joe Hungerman: So you have this balancing loop, you know, this change at one machine center. Double the, you know, the impact that you save there doubled the cost at assembly. So you're really worst. So the assembly manager gets fired and the manufacturing engineer that came up with this cost savings and a machining center gets promoted. And it's just. It's been this way for centuries. mean, you know, you just have to understand that, you know, you have these balancing and reinforcing loops and just try to simplify it as much as possible. Balancing loops. Something happens, opposite reaction happens at the other in the system. Reinforcing loops. I think the gold standard of examples for a reinforcing loop is the cold war. So. Dave Stubberfield: Yep. Joe Hungerman: The US builds up extra nuclear weapons. So Russia says, well, we can't have that. So they add more. And then the US says, well, now Russia has more than we do. So we got to add more. it's just, that's a reinforcing loop where an action actually causes an even stronger digging in on another side. instead of kind of balancing, it's kind of a race to the bottom. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's really interesting. I feel, I think the more I'm kind of talking to you, I learned so much when I'm talking to you, especially around systems. I think for me, when I see organizations that are working in silos and departments and they're not joined up in their thinking or they're aligned, it really bugs me because Like you say that knock-on effect is so powerful sometimes and sometimes it can be really positive that it can have a positive impact through the line. But what I hate to see is where sometimes a small change at the front of the process can have a knock-on effect and compound all the way through. So when the customer actually receives the product or service, they're like, what the hell is this? This isn't what I ordered. This is not what I paid for. And it's because you've almost gone through these different departments that have added their inefficiencies on

top of one another and it's just compounded. So I think you've got it sort of multiple ways and you're right that system. I think for me, organisational design is a massive thing as well. It's kind of, is the organisation set up for success or are we following your traditional kind of hierarchy because that's the way we've always done it and that's the way we should always do it. Joe Hungerman: If you don't have a good base, you're just reinforcing bad habits. You know, you have to have the structures and the processes in place first before you can improve anything. You have to know, think Deming is, is, is cited with this, but you know, he said, if you don't know what you're doing, if you can't explain what you're doing as a system, you don't know what you're doing. Or as a set of processes or something of that nature, I'm messing up that paraphrase completely, but. Dave Stubberfield: Yep. Yeah. That's all right. That's all right. Just on that note, ⁓ what time is it for you? Just in the UK, it's just gone 11 a.m. What time is it for you? Joe Hungerman: It is 5 a.m. Dave Stubberfield: Okay, ⁓ whereabouts are you in the world? You said you're in America. Joe Hungerman: Nashville, Tennessee, Music City. Dave Stubberfield: Okay, so is it because you're so eager to talk to me at 5am or is it this is how you work? Joe Hungerman: This is really how I work. So people think I'm crazy. My therapist thinks I'm crazy. ⁓ That's probably a bad thing. But, you know, I get up at somewhere around 1230 AM and I start working. ⁓ It sounds problematic and it sounds like I'm a workaholic, but it's really not that way. I mean, I have a five year old, so I'm kind of more on his schedule. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah Joe Hungerman: And I just always got used to being able to do so much more early in the morning. And it just got early and earlier as I got older, especially after we had our son that, you know, I needed time to be able to get stuff done with both of us working from home. help each other out, you know, make sure he's taken care of. So getting stuff done early, plus in software, I have people I work with all over the world. So it just, it got easier for me when, especially my last full-time job I was working with a team in Sri Lanka and You know I wanted to be on their hours so that you know an inconvenience on me is one person an inconvenience on 20 people on a software team which they would do anyway, but I you know that human aspect that Values part of me wanted to be on their schedule not force them to be on mine so It kind of started out that way and I really enjoy it. I mean, I rotate back and forth. I work for a while, then I go study chess for a while, then I work for a while, then I study chess, then the day starts. So yeah, it's people don't understand that I never worked third shift or anything like that. So it never started out that way. That's not why I'm up at these hours. It's just, that's what I do. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. And since that full time roll, do you find your day has started earlier? Because you were getting up, was it 3am you'd start or was it 2.30am? Okay. Joe Hungerman: It is gradually gotten earlier, but it's just because my brain is always going a hundred miles an hour. So if I wake up briefly in the middle of the night, my brain just goes crazy. And then I'm like, okay, I got to get up and tackle what I'm thinking about right now. It's just the way I am. It's. Yeah. Dave Stubberfield: Fair play, fair play. Now just on that kind of personal aspects as well, last year was a really tough year for you. ⁓ I think a lot of leaders find significant life events and changes really has a knock on effects in how they work and lead people. Without going into too much detail, how has the experience of loss for you last year affected you and how has that transformed how you are as a person today? Joe Hungerman: Well, I've got a lot more ink all over the place because of it, but yeah, 2025 is a year that I would like to completely erase from my memory. I lost my dog, which was my best friend. lost my, uh, my father-in-law and I lost my mentor, Bob Rush. who was the Sensei of CI, was our heart and soul. ⁓ It took a lot out of me. I mean, it was something where I threw myself into work, which was having studied a ton of psychology, I knew was the wrong thing to do. And I had already started going to a therapist to get my head checked regularly, just you know. I think it's important. Mental health is important. I don't know when mental health day is, but we all got to be more cognizant of what people are struggling with. So losing all of them within six months. I mean, I just didn't know what to do. It was, you know, and then we came up on the holidays and my father-in-law was always Santa for all the kids in his city because he had a big beard and white hair and he was, I loved him to death. Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Joe Hungerman: I mean, I just, I miss him greatly and I, it's, was just really a struggle. So my therapist suggested that I stopped working so much and find a hobby. So like a ton of people, ⁓ during COVID and after the Queen's Gambit came out, I started playing chess online and I, it was something I hadn't done since I was a kid. And. I said, okay, I'll lean into that. So I bought some books. I started going to a chess club. You know, I loved it. And it was at that moment I realized how much I was burning myself out. You know, being a solo founder, even though I have a great team around me, I mean, I have so many great people and resources and advisors that help me every day and contractors and everything else. It's, I have amazing people that I work with. Being a solo founder is just, it's just completely taxing. You don't have, you know, you don't have somebody else to share the load. The struggle is real. I mean, it's, it's on your shoulders. My wife is very understanding and she's very supportive and she wanted me to go for my dream. So, you know, we've been dealing on

one income for three years now, so it's, it's stressful. And when I started digging into chess and leaning more into this hobby, I realized how burnt out I was and how much that was affecting me and how much it was actually negatively impacting my work and my relationships with people. And it's an eye opening experience. you know, it's just, it's one of those things that you always need. Leaders always need to be cognizant of where their heads at. Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Yep. Joe Hungerman: You know, and it doesn't matter how you tackle that. You can go to therapist, you can do meditation, you can do yoga, whatever you want to do, but make sure you're always checking in with yourself. Make sure you're always asking yourself, how am I today? Am I overburdened? Do I need a rest day? Because founders, you know, you have this, this thing drilled into your head that there is no rest day. You're essentially working 80 hours a week. You know, it's you do what you got to do to get Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Joe Hungerman: everything off the ground and I never wanted to do that. didn't, you know, my family is very important to me. It's the most important thing to me. And I wanted to make sure that they had all of me too. And in running myself into the ground and burning myself out because I was dealing with grief by throwing myself into work that negatively impacted everything around me. I think leaders fall into that trap a lot. Dave Stubberfield: I totally agree. I think for me, you're spot on there, mate. think that mental health day is every day. ⁓ It doesn't need a dedicated day to make people aware. I think it should be something that we just recognize every single day. ⁓ For me, I find journaling really, really powerful. Meditation is great, but just writing how I'm feeling, how yesterday was, what today looks like, for me, it's just some sort of mental log. Joe Hungerman: Yep. Dave Stubberfield: that you go, yeah, okay. I feel overwhelmed potentially, but like you, I love and care about my family deeply, the most important thing to me. And that's my priority in life. I might stress that I haven't replied to an email or a message, but that person can wait. Nothing's gonna be that important more than your family. So I appreciate you sharing that, mate. That's a great insight and sorry for all the loss you had last year. ⁓ Joe Hungerman: I that. I want to mention one other thing because I think this is important and it's very important for leaders. Stop being so self-involved and make sure you're paying attention to the people around you too, to make sure they're not struggling with something and give them a forum to be open and vulnerable about it. I think as a society at large throughout the world, we need to normalise talking about mental health. We shouldn't have this stigma that if you're depressed that you're crazy. I mean, it's just... It's terrible and we have this, you know, suicide at earlier and earlier ages. I mean, we just need to be more cognizant outside of our own head space and be cognizant of the people around us and make sure that they're okay, you know? Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes that takes a leader to be vulnerable and show their vulnerabilities first so that other people realize that it's a safe space. And I think that's a really, really powerful message. Thank you, mate. ⁓ Just as we start to wrap up this conversation, if you've got one piece of advice for leaders when it comes to transformation, what would it be? Joe Hungerman: Get rid of your savior complex and rely on your people. You hired them for a reason, let them do their job. Dave Stubberfield: I love that, I love that. Joe, I've got three rapid fire questions for you. So if you're ready, let's go. One habit that you won't compromise on. Joe Hungerman: Let's do it. Ooh, drinking coffee. Dave Stubberfield: ⁓ one mistake that's taught you the most. Joe Hungerman: Yeah, that's a tough one that's that's not so rapid fire man, that's like One mistake that I've learned from the most ⁓ Dave Stubberfield: It's not, I guess you think it doesn't it. Joe Hungerman: It was overcoming this incessant need to always be right. It's not necessarily a specific mistake, but you know, I had this, this chip on my shoulder where I always wanted to be right and had to be right. In order to grow as a person and as a worker, I had to figure out a way to get that out. Dave Stubberfield: ⁓ okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no fair play. And one thing leaders don't talk about enough. Joe Hungerman: Um, how other people are doing, you know, mentally, I mean, we just talked about this. It's leaders don't check in with the personal side of their employees. Yes, there's certain personal things you don't want to dig into and work is work, but at the same time, you know, leaders want to go out there and say, we're all a family. Well, that's BS, you know, cause if times get tough, you're going to cut about 30 % of these people that are your family. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Joe Hungerman: ⁓ They just don't check in and make sure that they're not overwhelming, that their staff isn't overwhelmed, that they're understanding and that they're at their peak, not kind of beaten down by everything that's going on in the facility. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, great answer. Joe, it's been a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you so much. I would say go and get some sleep, but you've probably got a few more hours of work left, haven't you? Joe Hungerman: Oh yeah. Hell yeah. I'll get some sleep later. I usually take a nap around 9 a.m. after I get back to take my son to school. Dave Stubberfield: Ha Good man. Good man. Joe, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much, mate. Joe Hungerman: Thanks, Dobby.