Will AI Kill Us All? Real Risks, Real Controls의 전체 녹취록

asking Claude something and having Claude say, 76 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,480 you'll be wall and they would do it, right? 77 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:10,520 Of course. Yeah. 78 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,960 OK, so non-zero chance. 79 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:14,960 Here's the other problem I have with this entire thing. 80 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,560 And we keep falling for this stuff, right? 81 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,000 We've talked about this before. 82 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,040 I think it was Google we talked about before. 83 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,920 Every single time knows Facebook, every single time 84 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:30,200 an organization is closer to a monopoly or success 85 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,040 in their field and they're being chased 86 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,440 by a whole bunch of smaller competitors. 87 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,600 All of a sudden, they demand legislation 88 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,120 against the thing they're doing. Yeah, it's so crazy. 89 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,440 Yeah. The only organization 90 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,080 that is going to be helped by legislating and limiting 91 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,360 our research into AI is Anthropic and Open AI. 92 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,120 Period. Right. 93 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,080 And I'm not saying we shouldn't have guardrails. 94 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:58,880 I'm not saying we shouldn't have something. 95 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:00,800 We all know my opinion of legislation. 96 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,000 But every single time you hear an organization that says 97 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,120 because here's what they they say part of this 98 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,720 and the other part is just kind of implied. 99 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,520 Hey, we've spent a lot of money building something. 100 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,120 And because we've built it, 101 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:15,480 we've proved it's possible. 102 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,360 So other people are now trying to build it. 103 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,960 And sadly for us, it will be easier 104 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,520 for them to build it because we've proven the path. 105 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,560 So what we want to do is spike the path 106 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,720 so they can't come in. Yeah. Right. 107 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,960 And the way they spike the path is by going to Congress 108 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,360 and saying, hey, we paid you a bunch of money. 109 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:35,360 I mean, we didn't pay you. 110 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,040 We donated to your election campaign 111 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,760 past this law that makes it harder for everybody else. 112 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:42,920 Yeah. I'm tired of that. 113 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,840 And I'm tired of the fact that we as a population 114 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,760 keep just accepting that call. 115 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,760 The fact that people I know that have. 116 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,520 They could not spell AI are now saying, 117 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,840 well, we should have laws protecting us from this AI system. 118 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:00,480 I look a cool. 119 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,680 And how many laws have protected us against murder? 120 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,720 How many law rights? Sorry. 121 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,080 I'm right. Yeah. No, no, it's a it's a good rant. 122 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:09,320 And I agree with you, Kevin. 123 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,760 I think I find it funny 124 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:15,360 that the value of these companies 125 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,240 just continue to increase every time 126 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,640 a founder like Dario, whoever comes out and says, 127 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,520 AI needs to be paused, needs to be regulated, needs to. 128 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,480 We need to stop what we're doing. 129 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,080 We have to do something about it and put guardrails in. 130 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,920 And like, I'm like, well, first of all, 131 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,360 the investors just keep throwing more money 132 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,440 and billions of dollars at these companies. 133 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:38,880 The more they say that. 134 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,560 And then second, they're the ones creating these things, 135 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,960 but they're not pausing and they're not stopping. 136 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:46,640 They're continuing to do this. 137 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,920 So to me, it's all marketing and it's about money and investment. 138 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:50,760 Absolutely. 139 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,560 The fact that they're getting more investment 140 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,280 when they're literally saying government make us stop 141 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,800 tells me that the investors know they're not going to 142 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:01,120 and the law is not going to affect them. 143 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,480 I have this great idea if Dario or whatever. 144 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,560 And for some reason, I just see him as a Italian plumber in a game. 145 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,760 Every time I hear his name, Mario, Mario and Mario Dario, 146 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:19,240 Evil twin brother, Dario and every time I see these, 147 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,720 like, I want to write back to the dude and say, 148 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,520 I got this great idea. 149 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,200 I got this great idea, man. 150 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,960 You believe that I should be regulated. 151 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,880 So give me a list of the things you want the government 152 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,240 to make it illegal for AI to do. 153 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,280 OK, cool. Give me that list. 154 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,400 Now, tell me why you haven't

stopped your own damn company. 155 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,800 You know, the one you're in charge of, 156 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,840 you know, the one you make the rules for, 157 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,240 the one that you claim is just trying to help population 158 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,560 and humanity will implement those rules, jerk, right? 159 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,920 The day you show me that you have taken your proposed 160 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,480 regulation and made it not policy, 161 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,440 I want to see actual controls that prevent the thing 162 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,120 you're claiming and everybody else is going to do. 163 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:08,600 Show me those controls. 164 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,920 And the day you show me those controls and show me 165 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,760 that they're effective, then I will have an actual 166 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,760 conversation with you about regulation. 167 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,680 But until you show me that you're you're putting 168 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,560 your money where your mouth is, because, like I said, 169 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,760 you control the organization. 170 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,360 That would be like me saying, you know what? 171 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,040 Secure ideas has this really serious problem 172 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,960 that our consultants are becoming artificially intelligent 173 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,440 and they may destroy the world. 174 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,160 But if the government doesn't regulate me from 175 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,080 preventing them from destroying the world, look, 176 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,080 my consultants are going to go crazy. 177 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:45,400 Yeah. I'm sorry. 178 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,200 We told you. My hands are tied. 179 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,280 I got to be destructive. 180 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,600 Only the government can save you from secure ideas. 181 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,520 It's BS. I'm sorry. It's BS. 182 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,440 OK, I'll shut up now. 183 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,240 Scott, what do you think of all this? 184 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,520 Well, I mean, I can't create as entertaining 185 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,960 an argument as Kevin on whether or not 186 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,720 things should be regulated. 187 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:08,600 So I'm just going to leave it at that. 188 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,800 But I think there are a lot of different paths 189 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,240 by which I could severely harm the human race. 190 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,240 And I'm just going to go down that path. 191 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:17,640 Yeah, there you go. 192 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,520 And say, you know, the recent, 193 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,600 you know, evolutions of, you know, 194 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,840 breaking out of testing

sandboxes 195 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,240 to me is the most credible. 196 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,040 A lot of people will say, yeah, it's it's marketing. 197 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,800 You know, they did it to make their 198 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,400 things seem more mysterious and powerful. 199 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,960 But I can think of other ways that they might have come up with, 200 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,440 you know, a killer app that would grow their market, 201 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,160 maybe not as fast or I don't know. 202 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,040 I'm just saying I think that the most credible way 203 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,520 that this stuff gets to that point of being, 204 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:57,200 you know, a serious threat to all humanity is the way it's going. 205 00:09:58,080 --> 00:09:59,920 In the path that we've seen it going on. 206 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:03,400 And I think, you know, some of the scariest things we could see, 207 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:08,760 if my feeling is correct, is it would be finding paths 208 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,280 to a distributed way of operating 209 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,720 so you don't have a kill switch, right? 210 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,680 That would it would looking back to Asimov's, you know, 211 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:19,960 three rules of robotics, right? 212 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,720 You know, did you see the XKCD cartoon about that? 213 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,200 You got to find it. 214 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,280 Why Asimov put his rules in the order that he did. 215 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,120 It's actually the picture of the week 216 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,200 and last week's security now episode from Steve Gibson. 217 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,520 But basically every other combination of don't harm humans, 218 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,880 obey the rules and then, you know, protect yourself, right? 219 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,880 Every other combination results in bad things. 220 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,720 I don't know how I'm not an expert on this stuff. 221 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:55,480 But I think the process starts with identifying, you know, 222 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:59,680 is this going in a direction that could, you know, 223 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:01,360 lead to what they're predicting? 224 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:02,960 And I think it may be. 225 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,080 And I've always sort of had that gut feeling that, you know, 226 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,400 it was going to start with, well, you're not going to be able 227 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,800 to trust what you see on TV or on, you know, streaming. 228 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:13,600 And that's happening. 229 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:14,440 It's happening now. 230 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:15,760 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 231 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,880 So, yeah, that's that's my two cents. 232 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,960 And I want to be very, Scott, agree 100 percent with you. 233 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,080 I'm not saying the uselessness of the measure 234 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,840 means we should ignore the fact that it's possible. 235 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,080 It is absolutely possible. 236 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,800 As a matter of fact, I would argue possible isn't the right word. 237 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,120 I think the word should be likely, right? 238 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,920 Whether it's directly due to the AI system going like, 239 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,080 hey, wait, these humans suck, let's wipe them out. 240 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,160 Or it's just because we've moved to something 241 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,200 that either people are making decisions based 242 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,640 on what AI systems are doing or we're allowing AI systems 243 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,360 to control things and making judgment calls 244 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,880 based on incorrect information, but we're making them at speed. 245 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,720 Right. Because that's that's the thing. 246 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,960 Look, I'm dull, but I can only be dumb so fast. 247 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,720 Right. AI could be dumb just like me way faster. 248 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,240 And if I take my level of dumb and combine it with the speed 249 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,480 of AI giving me more dumb, we have an issue. 250 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,920 So yeah, I totally think it is possible 251 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,600 and likely that we, even if we don't wipe out humanity, right? 252 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,040 The idea that we cause significant harm 253 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,000 directly due to the usage of AI, not 254 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,080 data centers sucking up all the waters and stuff like that. 255 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,480 But directly from the usage of AI, I took AI 256 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,520 and hosted up to this nuclear power plant and it went right in the meltdown. 257 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,280 Or it's even less obvious than that. 258 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,160 I think, you know, that method I said of getting to a distributed operation. 259 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:03,000 What about what about the botnets that have taken over all the old routers? 260 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:04,880 Right. Hmm. 261 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,400 Isn't that a logical way that they might go, right? 262 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,360 Rather than first attacking a nuclear reactor? 263 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,480 Well, I'm not saying attacking a nuclear reactor. 264 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,240 I'm saying we give it control to the nuclear reactor and it makes a mistake. 265 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:18,720 Yeah. Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. 266 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,400 Yeah. Accidentally, I guess I'm more of a realist 267 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,720 that like we don't need AI to destroy humanity. 268 00:13:25,720

--> 00:13:27,320 Like we're already doing pretty well. 269 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:32,080 It's like we're like, yeah, like literally like we got climate change. 270 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,000 We have, you know, I mean, pick your poison, right? 271 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,880 Like I'm actually more fearful of, you know, World War Three 272 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,680 and all of us launching nukes at each other. 273 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:45,480 And there definitely is the end of humanity and AI won't even be involved in it. 274 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,040 Right. And I see this all over the media and the news. 275 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:49,720 First of all, the odds of this happening. 276 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,880 Yes, there's always a chance and all these things. 277 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,760 Well, it's going to happen in five, 10 years. 278 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,160 Like who really knows? 279 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,000 Like most likely not. 280 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,600 I mean, and I think it is kind of overhyped, 281 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,960 but I think we need to direct our attention towards the things that we can control. 282 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:11,120 Right. Like and realize that this AI hype is really all of a lot of it 283 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,680 is built around money and investments. 284 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:20,160 And we probably don't have time to talk about the whole US versus China thing. 285 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,600 And Trump saying is like, well, we can't have guardrails. 286 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:24,760 We got to beat China. 287 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:26,160 Guys, China's already won. 288 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,640 Really sharp president. 289 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,680 No, seriously, China's already ahead of us. 290 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,400 Like we should just admit that. 291 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,960 But we need to focus back on what we can control. 292 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,640 And it may not be AI turning into the next Skynet. 293 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:38,680 Just my opinion. 294 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:39,800 Yeah, priorities. 295 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,280 This one is a hotly a hot topic. 296 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,440 And we all have very, very strong opinions about it. 297 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,240 But love to hear from our audience. 298 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:50,040 What do you think? 299 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,680 Do you think this is the end of the world as we know it? 300 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,240 And all of humanity will be wiped out in five years? 301 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,880 Or do you think it's a more hype and more marketing and more about money? 302 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,480 And you put the REM song in the background. 303 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,120 I could maybe on the audio version. 304 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,400 But YouTube will ban me for life if I use the copyright. 305 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,880 So hopefully me seeing it just now won't get you banned. 306 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,080 But, you know, yeah, well, I may have to edit that out. 307 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:15,840 Scott, thank you. 308 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,160 Do you have any questions to anyone? 309 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,360 Yes, yes, that's right. 310 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:21,640 Please let us know in the comments. 311 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,760 We've been getting some great comments on the on the YouTube channel recently. 312 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,000 Even on past posts, I saw a really good one about remember the topic 313 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,720 we had on AI boyfriends and girlfriends. 314 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:36,080 And someone left a very good, well thought out comments about that. 315 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,040 And I was good about, like, we should be really focused on human 316 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,800 relationships with each other and not so much relationships 317 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,480 with AI systems that, well, will never be human. 318 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:48,800 There's some good studies on that. 319 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,480 And maybe we may have to discuss again. 320 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:51,520 Yeah, that's right. 321 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:51,960 That's right. 322 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:53,400 Yes. 323 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,360 All right. 324 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,360 Well, we will move on from this hot topic. 325 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,440 But again, thank you all for listening. 326 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,040 And until next time, stay safe, stay secure and stay private. 327 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,680 Thank you for listening or watching. 328 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,720 If you like this episode, hit subscribe, share it with your friends and 329 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,760 colleagues or jump into our community at sharedsecurity.net 330 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,400 slash supporter to keep the conversation going. 331 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:22,200 Thanks again, and we'll see you next week for another episode of Shared Security.