Been There, Got Out: Two Survivors on Rebuilding After a High-Conflict Divorce의 전체 녹취록

are going all over the place, he's excited and he's talking. Said he was into football. I have no interest in football. And then he tells me he's like a frat boy. I thought, my gosh, like never. But yet, at the same time, for the first time in my life, I was like, this is so weird, but I feel like I'm talking to the male version of me. I never had that happen before. Even though he was so different stylistically. And we had a great time. And the wonderful thing that Chris did without even realizing was at the end of the meal, when we got up to leave. He didn't try to hug me. He didn't try to kiss me. He didn't try to shake my hand. He just walked next to me and then he asked if he could have my phone number. And it was really good because I was so recently out of that relationship and I wasn't ready for someone to kind of push me in any way physically. He he did shortly after that with a kiss, but not that day. And afterwards, I really appreciated. I sat in the car, and again, first time in my life, it sounds so crazy. But I thought, how do I feel right now? I actually paused and was like, I feel good. I had a good time. I would do it again. And it just felt really comfortable and really natural. And now we're almost eleven and a half years later. Yeah. after that first date. The next day we both had plans. Lisa was getting together with some friends and I was taking my boys out, speaking of football, out to a spring football practice at Penn State. So it was a four hour drive each way. but we were texting each other. the next day we were both available and I got the day out Sunday. Yeah, so this is now two days after the lunch date. And we got together just for like an hour, right? It was just very short. And just to chat because we had enjoyed each other's company so much. We just sat at a pub down the street from me had some pretzels and chatted for a bit. I have to say Chris was totally dressed down and it relaxed me because he was wearing a sweatshirt. I think I was coaching like a little bit I know. I was like okay, okay, good. The prep thing was like a bit much. A little more a little more rugged looking this time. Yeah. But again, it was the same dynam. We just slipped into this conversation. It was just so, so easy. Until you frightened me, Chris. What did you say that scared me? and this is true. that morning on Sunday morning, I woke up and and just had this thought and this has learned since that my brain is very, very active in the morning. A lot of times I'll start talking before I'm awake. Like, like, let's go. Let's like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, we joke. It's like I'm like Chris is like, may I begin? Just blue. I'm just like that. But the thought that morning was I'm going to kiss her today. There's gonna be a first kiss And I hadn't had a first kiss in fifteen years, something like that. And yeah, it was fifteen years. and Lisa hadn't been for longer. like twenty, maybe twenty years. I don't have a really good editor.

and so of course I said this to Lisa and that's I was horrified. He's like, Yes. I woke up this morning, I was thinking, we're gonna kiss. I'm like, What? my god! You know, here I am in my forties. Like, how dare you? Like, that's so presumptuous. it's only our second date. Like, I don't even know you. And I said, Well, I mean, maybe we should like wait a week or something. And Chris goes, Well mean then I'm gonna have to hire a mariachi band and get fireworks. It just cracked me up. So it he was very disarming. after our little get together, it was April and it was chilly. he walked me to my car, total mom minivan and Chris was actually about, I don't know, what, seventy something pounds heavier than that you are now? Yeah. So he was like this six three. So he was like this big teddy bear. And it was cold. And so he's standing next to my car and he like looks down at me and he's like, can I hug you? And I said, Okay. And he was so warm and comfortable. And then he just, looked down and it was kind of like, is it okay? And then he kissed me. And I swear it was the moment from the Brady Bunch where Bobby kisses Millicent and the fireworks. I felt like I was 16 years old. I felt like I hadn't felt that kind of desire since I was a teenager. It was the most surprising, astonishing experience that I literally had to hold onto the car door because I felt like I was gonna fall over. It was so completely unexpected. me too. and part of me, you know, as I watched Lisa drive away, I was like, wow, what just like wow. that was really wow. part of sort of the logical part of my brain said, look, I don't, I can't, this is a second time we're seeing each other. I don't know where this is gonna go. It sure feels great, but I don't know. What I was so appreciative of and grateful for was that at 48 years old, I could still feel that that moment, that Brady Bunch moment that Lisa talked about. Cause I experienced the same thing. I was like, my God, there's hope after everything I've been through in my marriage. I was like, this is I have a future. Woohoo. Yeah. And all for me, it felt like when they described being shot by Cupid's arrow. after that it was like, my gosh, I am so attracted to him. I could not keep my hands off it like the first year. It was crazy. It was that amazing feeling of desire, which I mean, I have never been attracted to my ex-husband, physically attracted. Nobody believes that it's true. It's true. But it was like This feels so good. It was wonderful. I also thought that I was the kind of person who didn't really laugh that much. And I told this to Chris. I was like, I find things funny, but I don't really laugh out loud. He had me literally on the floor, hysterical, within a couple of weeks, just telling me these stories about stuff from his childhood. one of the funniest people I have ever met. And he's got that dry sense of humor. So he says stuff with a straight face and it just Very associative brain, super intelligent humor, not like beat you over the head, ho, ho, ho, I'm so funny. Just perfect, perfect style for me. So we've just had a ball ever since. you could feel safe with him and be yourself. You weren't on guard. Yeah. And speaking of that, right before he kissed me, I remember when he looked down at me. It was one of the only times, again, in my life that I felt like he was really. Like he really saw me and he really wanted to get to know me. It's hard to describe, but it just felt really, really good. I have no poker face, right? So you can always tell I'm terrible at masking emotions. I don't even bother. But she read that one very, very accurately because in the eleven and a half ish years since, I have never stopped wanting to know her more. And we still hold hands when we walk around the block with the dog or something. What she's saying about being attract I feel compelled to to hold her hand or touch her, just have our arms against each other, whatever. Just chemistry. What did you guys did you guys have to unlearn any old behaviors or did you have any triggers? Going into this relationship or did that just all melt away? I feel like especially for the first year, it was hard. when you come out of a relationship like this, plus I was dealing with the crazy legal stuff with my ex. one thing I was very conscious of was and going to therapy and stuff, was I had allowed myself to be led into many of the romantic relationships I'd been in. So when Chris and I got together, I really, really liked him, but I didn't want that same pattern. So I said, I would really like it if you don't say I love you and you let me say it first when I'm ready. So he had to wait. He had to wait three months. He thought I was gonna do it at the second month, but he had to wait three months. And that that that also was different. I felt safe too because I felt like the relationship in general, he wasn't gonna push and he was very respectful of of those boundaries. And Lisa, I think you were the first relationship in my life where I was not the first one to say I love you. I'm just trying to think I'm pretty sure that's right. I don't know if it's like a male, female thing that men tend to say at first, but I just thought I need space to figure out how I feel and allow time for those feelings to develop. There were a couple of things that that were a little bit bumpy. Like one thing was I actually didn't read Chris's profile. I just got the message from him and we were off. And I didn't realize that he had communicated that he smoked sometimes. So I'm super into fitness. when I found out he smoked, I was like, I don't think I could really deal with that. And then Chris was like, I don't do like I started it from my ex wife. it's not like a major thing. And I could just I'll just stop. And I was like, Great. And then I found out a month later that he hadn't. And I felt like that it was like hiding something. And in his mind, he's like, Well, what's the big deal? I told you I was gonna

try. But in my mind, I was like, But you said that you would stop and then you've been doing it and I didn't know about it. it was almost like not gaslighting, but I remember kissing him sometimes and being like, Why does it taste like ashy a little bit? maybe it's just me, maybe it's just me. And so we had a big fight about that. in my mind it was like, I need to know what I'm dealing with. So even though to you it's just like a cigarette once in a while, which is not that big a deal, for me, it's my ex did what's called lying by omission. there were so many things that I didn't know about in our relationship that he assumed I was fine with, or he in his mind was like, I could do whatever I want. So when Chris was smoking, saying that he had quit and then still doing it, I felt like it was a betrayal of trust. And I almost broke up with him over that. I can't believe over something like this, it's not just the cigarette, it's this type of behavior. So we made a plan where because it was harder for him to quit than he had anticipated. so we made a plan that if he was going to smoke, that he just tell me, that he just say, I feel like I have to, and then I could choose if we would get together later today. And he knew I'd like, No, I don't want to see you. And that actually caused him to stop because he wanted to get together. Yeah, that that was what greased the kids to me stopping. And I had underestimated 'cause I only like I was not a smoker. I think it was stress related just in short periods of my life I had done that. it was a little harder for me to stop than I thought it thought it would be. And as Lisa's telling that story, I think both of us changed a lot from our our marriages. that had a huge impact on our evolution as people. So I kind of got the fully actualized Lisa, like the one who stands up for herself and has all these very healthy habits and boundaries, but it's hard to deal with sometimes, right? Because she is a lot. I didn't know her before, but she's tougher. she stands up for herself. I admire that, but I also as sometimes I get the crosshairs as a result. we're not perfect. We're a couple that's been together a long time. So we've had our bumps along the way. Yeah. But one thing Chris did that convinced me to rethink not ending the relationship sooner was because it really like freaked me out when that happened. And that was so early, that was like a month or something into the relationship, was He negotiated with me. He was like, you know, you got married when you were pretty young. so you didn't get to be like an adult in a lot of ways in a lot of like adult grown up relationships. Your relationships were mostly as an adolescent. So for him, he got married later than I did. So he had a number of serious relationships in his twenties, which I didn't have. And so he said, I just wonder if maybe you could try to give this another chance. I mean, adults when somebody makes a mistake or whatever, they try to work it out rather than just like this is the end. And I thought, that makes sense. I remember saying I know it's new and it's young, but we might have something pretty special here. it's it feels like it to me. we can't just discard it as this over this. Like let's work through this. Right. and that's why we came up with that plan together over what he could do and what I would accept and compromising and it were. Have you guys seen that YouTube video? It's not about the nail. That lady that has like the nail in her forehead and she's complaining to her husband that the sweater is snagging over her head and he's like, Well, take the nail out. So I was thinking about it. It's not about the cigarette. Yes, that's right. I forgot about that. That was, I think I saw that in through some domestic violence training. Yeah, we saw that one of the conferences we're at. Yeah, that's right. my gosh, I forgot about that. so then you guys are in this relationship. how did team Lisa and Chris come up with this to start helping other people? Well, it was that conversation that I mentioned in Lisa's kitchen. We had this sort of common purpose early in our relationship. Lisa going through her divorce, me going through mine. Mine took longer. Lisa had to go back a bunch after. Like it they were both just a bunch is an understatement. Absolutely awful. But we learned together. We supported each other through that. It was like our project for that first couple of years. we learned a ton about why. things were as difficult as they were, that there was a personality disorder behind it. Now Lisa's ex and my ex are different, but they have the same core problem. we learned how do you deal with this? And what's happening in the legal system and all of that stuff, right? So we're having this conversation in our kitchen around the time my divorce wrapped up after three years. And I remember saying Lisa, you know, if we could go back in time knowing what we know now, we could have saved half, at least half that time, money and energy and who knows how much heartache and worry and sleepless nights and all that stuff. And Lisa now likes to say more. Way more than now. But that's where we were like, there's no such thing as time travel. We can't go back and undo our mistakes. But we had also learned that there were tons of people out there that have the same root problem. And I bet we could help other people navigate this. We got some wonderful advice from a literary agent. Who said, the landscape has changed. You need to build a platform on social media. You need to be working with people. You need to have your own audience and following. So we set out doing that. we launched our coaching practice and it's been very successful. at some point, a publisher reached out to us and said, hey guys, you should write a book. And we were like, duh. You know, absolutely. So The book project came off the back burner and that first book was released in 2023. Well, I've been reading through it,

listening to it, and I'm telling you, I wish I would have found you guys a long time ago. I'm so glad that the universe brought you together so you could help other people. there's a quote in chapter five, committing to act. Watch a toxic person turn from the biggest charmer into the most vile human ever with one word from you. And that word is no. We we wrote that? That's really good. Yeah, we did. And that was long before AI. So yes, we did, Chris. So the term narcissistic personality disorders and all those things come into play. And you don't know what you're living or dealing with. Like Lisa, you were young. I was nineteen. I had my children very young. And I didn't know until I stepped outside that circle for a minute to think, this isn't normal. This isn't right. I didn't know any any difference. How do you differentiate? to somebody that's listening, maybe like, I think I feel funny in my stomach. Something's off, something's not right, but you're trying to make the marriage work. I was in it for life. I didn't want to be divorced. I didn't want to, have my children have divorced parents. And that's why I stay stay for the children. I've learned that is not true. And do not go to therapy with someone that's narcissistic. Or has a personality disorder? the therapist flipped everything to me. my ex was sitting there glowing. That was a big mistake. the first thing that therapist does, she looks at me and she's like, You are a very controlling person. haven't even opened my mouth. And she said, You're all matchy matchy. I was in the fashion industry. So she was judging me immediately and he's sitting there just like, Yep, she is. And from that point on, it was hell. I stay for 10 more years. Jenny, I completely feel you. I feel you. I also so know that one in two people in abusive relationships don't realize that they're in them. I also made the mistake of going to multiple multiple couples therapy. Same thing. My ex had this therapist. It was like she decided after I also found out that my ex was having an online affair with God knows what. But we went to therapy and the therapist is like, Well, let's talk about what's deficient in the relationship Lisa and let's Shelve your feelings and you should be grateful that he's not doing it with someone in the neighborhood and blah, blah, blah. I was like, are you out of your mind? I mean, this is some like this is someone who is a diagnosed addict of this kind of stuff. And instead of looking at his behavior and the violations, it was more of like, well, you know. What could you do better? she basically inflated what he had been saying all of the problems are your fault. No accountability. It was a disaster. And the thing was that first therapist, who I really think was so unethical for a number of reasons, she had said that in order to do this six month therapy that was at that time years ago, a hundred two hundred dollars an hour that I hated. I hate every week it was like said to my my ex husband, You need to end your affair. Or you need to end the marriage, but you can't do both. So if you end the affair, then we can do therapy. So, so he he takes his sweet time deciding, week after week what it is. And he needs all this time to think about it. And then he told me that the therapist said that I should be the person to support him through his grief of having to break up with his who knows what, girlfriend. later we find out after the six months had passed. that he never broke up with the girlfriend, that he actually flew her to America, had physical, unprotected contact with her, saying he was going to work and then coming home to me and all kinds of craziness. I said that to the therapist. he he lied the whole time. she's like, I didn't know. I'm like, my God, you've ruined my life. Both of you. the levels of betrayal and deception. that was just number one. We went to two others, but Huge waste, not even a waste of time, very, very damaging to a victim of emotional and whatever else abuse, but especially that lying by by omission. It was awful. That's terrible. I got up during one of those therapy sessions and walked out. I stood up, said, I'm done they were both coming at me. I walked out and I'm like, wait a minute. We drove here together. I'm like, yeah. We had that too. My ex would always bring me pizza, like a kind thing, like, this is you know, this is look at what a great partner I am. I like how you guys wrote how to stay sane under insane circumstances. And I've always said the person that creates the divorce, the contention, will create it after. the divorce might be final, it doesn't mean that all the chaos is going to be, especially when you have kids. So how do you stay grounded? when you're receiving hostile texts and messages accusations and, verbal assault throughout the community when they're constant attempts to provoke you. what's your advice for that? There's no like cheat code, right? It takes time. we share children, a lot of people do, right? So we use the parenting app. I would set it up so that when my ex sent me a message, like, I'm gonna make light of this. It's gonna make a little comical like doing like from a cartoon or something. But that didn't do it. when I'd hear that noise, I'd get a knot in my stomach, like, what fresh hell is this? And all that. and it took time. part of it is is time and being able to heal from the trauma. I was also diagnosed with CPTSD. a couple of sessions, one actually doing EMDR, if you're familiar with EMDR, I'm a huge fan. I was a little further along so I did the one session where we actually did the eye movement and then that was when COVID was starting. So the place where I was going closed down for a while. And by the time they reopened, I was like, you know what, I'm good. I don't need to go back. But I'm glad I had the experience. It was really incredible. So I think you need to, whether it's EMDR or therapy, whatever it is, you need to address the trauma. From

the abusive relationship. So addressing it plus time, that's healing. And then proactively it's about, God, this word is so overused with boundaries. you're supposed to be communicating on a parenting app. When my ex texts me, I copy the text, I put it in the parenting app and say, like, okay, you know, here's my response, but it's always about steering back to the approved channel. That's just one limiting any kind of face-to-face contact. it's really it's boundaries, whatever the right ones are for you. We have a whole course because this we work on with our clients more than anything. we call it strategic communication. how to communicate with your ex without destroying your case or losing your mind? And it's all about how to build targeted documentation knowing that you're gonna be back in the legal system for a while, but also learning how to stand up to a bully. So Dealing with the PTSD, not using AI, but understanding the psychology of someone like that while building really powerful evidence for your case. Chris's ex was very much in his life with the messaging and all that stuff. And they she have the kids like pretty much 50-50. So there's a lot of engagement and interaction. Mine was the opposite. My ex left. He disappeared and I was dealing with my kids with abandonment issues. I wish that I could get a break. I was a solo parent that never saw it coming. but the way that he really got to me was in the legal system. And that's what we specialize in something called legal abuse where the ex is using the legal system to wear you down and bleed you dry. there's really two types. One is where they're doing vexatious litigation or frivolous litigation where they're filing lots and lots of motions all the time, usually to change custody or money, and you're constantly having to take off work, totally stressed out, pay attorneys, and your life is in court all the time. Mine was where my ex did not comply with our agreement and I had to keep taking him to court. And then I went back and I spent the next seven and a half years, I always say about a hundred court appearances in New York and Connecticut. Yeah. Getting that order enforced. And it was so Frustrating. After it finally ended, I was like, that was actually the best education I ever got because it was in the trenches. And that also helped me retain this radical empathy for what our clients are going through. And that's part of our name, been there got out, is like I really, really understand what it feels like to wake up every single day feeling rage more at the system than my ex, deep sense of injustice. And this feeling of despair, like it's never gonna get better. Look at how he keeps getting away with it. I did all of that at the family court level. And then I also argued at the appellate court level, the high court level, because he appealed four times. I was told to do this, I said no. I was told to hire an appellate lawyer. It would have cost fifteen thousand for their twenty minutes of arguing. And I was like, I'm not doing it. And I did it. I won the appeal, which isn't that big a deal, but the case was so notable that it got published as case law, which is unheard of for a pro se or self-represented litigant. So I'm just like, thank you, X. Like, thank you for giving me so much authority and credibility in this space. And everything is published in public and it's like a amazing feeling of triumph. So it was really hard in those trenches, but now I'm like, to tie it back to what we started with when I started about the trauma and all that, I remember at one point when I was still much more affected by it, I would get into court and I couldn't think straight. I would be jittery, I'd shake, I couldn't function. And Lisa said to me at one point, and she was not being mean, but she said, You could never represent yourself. This is when she was representing yourself. But again, she she wasn't being mean at all, but she was accurately saying, I'm a wreck, I can't do it. After some time and work and more work, I actually did represent myself very well and I actually won my case. it wasn't a huge, huge thing, but it was very meaningful. and I got under my ex's skin to the point where she like went off on the judge and the bailiff have to tell her to calm down. there's little that beats cross examining your ex in court. it is a good feeling. Yeah. It is. When you know what you're doing. Yeah. You Lisa, you essentially went to law school. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, I didn't you you it's worse than law school. I know. Everybody says like you should be a lawyer. I'm like, actually I I did consider that, but I love what we do because we are not geographically limited. As strategists, we can do all kinds of things out of the box because we don't give legal advice. You can reach more people, like you said, in the trenches, hold their hand side by side and empathize. So the kids, right? how did you decide to come up with this book? Because when I was reading part of it, you also said there's a lot of advice out there on the internet. sometimes that could be more harmful than good. So tell me about the your book Well, Lisa's gonna do most of the talking on this one, we were in Chicago at the American Library Association's annual conference. our publisher for our first book had asked us To attend that event. So this is 2023. And we have been to the event and we're taking a cab back to the airport. I forget who said, almost jokingly, like, what's our next book? whoever said whatever, it's like, well, it's money and it's kids, right? those are the things. And our first book talks a lot about, surviving in the legal system and what they're gonna try to do. And one of the goals there is to help people keep the costs down so they don't go bankrupt in the process. But kids, we spend for our kids, right? People are very, very focused on helping their kids. So what is it about the kids? And we see constantly disruptions in the relationships

that are caused intentionally by the other parent. it's our audience or community bring that issue to us. And we couldn't ignore it. So I've always been saying, the first book, the blue one, is that's the one we wanted to write. The the second book is the book our audience told us we had to write. Putting the kids back at the center and putting them first. I like the quote that says children are both of you, both of the parent part of the parents. And when one parent continually attacks the other parent, the injury lands on the child. what does a child caught between two parents in conflict need? From the healthier parent. there's a term that was developed by Bill Eddy, who wrote the forward to our book that we're so thrilled that he said yes to do it. It's called positive and negative advocates. I think we talk about it a little bit in the book, but a negative advocate can be a friend or family member or somebody, even your own attorney who loves you, but they're all about like you deserve this and you should do this. And they fan the flames of conflict because they're thinking about. what the right thing to do is or what, what's fair. But a positive advocate is someone who's really thinking big picture in terms of what's best for the family and recognizes that the more conflict there is, the more it's gonna bleed onto the kids and they're gonna suffer. So for us as positive advocates, one of the most important things we do with our clients is teach them how to lower the level of conflict. You always think about like a yin-yang symbol like the black and white where someone's pushing. We say, like, for example, with mediation, you can't go in to mediation with one of those types of people with blaming and accusing because they're just gonna get up and leave and then you're gonna be in the legal system and it's gonna be this huge conflagration. So instead, when someone's pushing, it's like, how can you kind of humanize and think like they have their issues and people need to be heard? So part of what you do is adjust your role and I often wear is it I have my dog's muzzle that's one of my props where I say you go in and you need to keep your mouth shut. You have to gather intel and because that other person is coming so hard. So it's learning how to be flexible and to also understand the psychology of the person you're dealing with. And we often say like Chris said earlier, you know this person better than anyone. you've been the one living with them for so long. You know what inflames them and you also know how to coddle them. You know what calms them down. And I always say, and I know we're not talking about sex because that's usually first thing they want. But in terms of the way that you interact, how to placate them. You know how to stroke their ego. Everybody is terrified when you're in a legal situation. So there's ways to calm the other person down and act like that you're both on the same side for certain things. And so in our communication, we talk a lot about universal agreements, like things that we both care about that are vague enough that no one can dispute, but they also align with the court's values. So for example, one of the universal agreements is I'm sure we can both agree how important it is to shield the kids from conflict between us. When you say something like that, your ex can't say, I don't care about that, because then they look like this horrible person. We always think about that invisible audience. And so by saying something like that, you drop an anchor of we both want the same thing. And so if we're gonna shield the kids from the conflict, then now we're gonna talk about how we're not gonna keep disparaging and we're gonna call someone out when they're doing it and remind them and start building a paper trail that keeps reinforcing. But didn't we both say, even though just one person said it, but we both said that we wanted to shield the kids from the conflict, or something like, I'm sure we can both agree that we want our kids to get through this as healthy and unscathed as possible, right? Okay. So maybe we have different ideas, but now we're both gonna try to do it, even though you're kind of roping the other person into it, because we know people like that care about appearances. They wanna be the good mom, the good dad. So it's like we're gonna be good parents, right? You're a great parent, you're a great parent. Instead of saying we're so terrible, it's like I am so amazed at these wonderful children that we've raised together. And instead of attacking you, I want you in their lives. So how are we gonna make this work? So it changes the whole dynamic of the conversation where the other person isn't on defense and feeling like they're have to protect their rights. So it really, really matters in terms of like mediation and communication with someone like that. And it makes a tremendous impact. And that's what kids need. They need the parents to, or one parent even to start lowering the conflict. So that they don't feel pulled in whatever direction or feel responsible for a parent's emotional health. That's very strategic. I love that. I love that. Rather than just ignoring and not responding, you guys are amazing. You are very needed. how do you reach the point when your ex is no longer the center of your life? We always say that a lot of our clients meet us their years. years out and their ex is still squatting between their ears. I always have to credit this woman, Karen McMahon, for giving me that image. I love it. Their ex is still in their head. a lot of it is practice. I think it's exposure therapy. It's practicing how to communicate to them, practicing little things you can do that you I mean all of our clients, men and women around the world are domestic violence survivors. They are afraid of their ex. So we try to do little things like can you make eye contact? during an exchange so the kids see. can you make small talk? Can you do

little things that show you're not afraid? fake it till you make it with various things, all kinds of little exercises. But doing things that are not comfortable and getting through it and being like, wow, that actually worked. And the kids being more relaxed too, it it makes a big, big difference. When I was still very much affected, I have two boys. They played every sport. So we were Constantly at Little League games together, basketball games together. I coached a lot. I interacted with all the parents. So I was in that situation often where my ex was around. And it got the at its worst. I remember sitting around my kitchen with Lisa and other friend. so what this made me think of was I'm a guy. As Lisa mentioned, I'm six three. I played college football. for me to be quivering in fear around a five foot four. Hundred and thirty pound men face a little bit of a different thing. And we're not gonna get into the gender stereotypes or anything like that, but I just wanted to note that, how weird it was or how embed like it wasn't really shame. It was a combination of things, a whole cocktail of bad emotions. But we were sitting around my kitchen and I was coming up with a mantra because my ex would always Approach me. She knew me. It was like five words. And I was just trying to remember what to say, this is not the time or place or something like that. it was so hard, but I did it a couple of times. I used it a couple of times. I started to just appear more confident around and be able to exchange a couple of words without looking terrified. it was, as I said earlier, effort and time. There's no pill you can take for it, we have a weekly legal abuse support group and I always say we do the unusual thing in the domestic violence space and that we blend our male and female clients together because we firmly believe that abuse is a human issue, not a gender issue, especially in terms of the emotional and psychological abuse. And I think it's really, really helpful to find a supportive community and even if you don't talk, but to hear other people's stories and feel that validation and feel like it's not just me that this is happening to. That really also helps. And I'm learning that it's the same stuff all the time. And it's so predictable. And at some point you're like, I'm not gonna keep getting played by this. One of our clients in particular, a few months ago, was forced to do a high conflict co-parenting class with her ex. And she was like, This was like a domestic violence victim's nightmare. we had to have these phone calls that nobody was listening to. Once a week and he would just keep attacking me. So she goes, I had to do it for nine weeks or something. She goes, I almost made a little bingo card of all of the ways that he attacked. And she said at some point it was like exposure therapy because I just feel like, there he is with that one. Up here's the next one. it did make her more numb to it. And she was really glad later that this happened. So again, that exposure therapy, it does work, but it has to be done, you know, carefully and not too much too soon. how has helping others changed what happened to both of you, what you experienced? Has it been healing, thardic? I always equate what we do, when we started doing this, I had serious doubts. I was worried that working with people who had gone through the stuff I had gone through was gonna re-traumatize me. I wouldn't be able to deal with it. And that was a very real concern at the beginning. And that dissipated instantly. I have found the opposite, the absolute opposite. And I equate it to in 12-step programs, one of the the final kind of piece in the puzzle, so to speak, is is helping others. I've gone through this process and now I can help others and that helps me too. And it is exactly that has exactly been my experience that all of this exposure and brief being able to bring my experiences, whether they were mine personally or stories I've heard or experiences with our clients, To other people and know that their situation will be better off. it really, really helps with the healing. Yeah. And for me, I used to get so frustrated because I used to be a high school English teacher. I took off for a couple of decades while I was raising my kids. And then I finally thought, all right, I'm ready to go back. They're off in college. And I could not do it because I was still in court. And when you're pro se you have to drop everything at a moment's notice and be ready and respond And deal with things. it's just like this wonderful irony that now my master's degree I can use to teach people all over the world to really save their life in a lot of ways. I'm really grateful that this happened. Of course, during the time it felt horrible, but I feel like all roads led here. I never would have imagined that this is what we'd end up doing, but I get to work with my favorite person. It's a super creative type of work that we do. There's a lot of you know, even though it's it's tragic, there's a lot of humor in what we do. We get testimonials and thank yous constantly, but it just feels really good. It feels great to see someone change. we have a hashtag called From Puddle to Ninja. So it's an intimate relationship we have with our clients. We also say our clients are our sweetie pies because they all were the ones who were targeted by an abuser. So they are the shining stars. They are the most talented, responsible, creative, funny individuals. And we love working with them. So I'm thrilled. You're creating a community and family of of healing survivors. And I get to use my writing skills, my art skills, communication skills. It's perfect. And it deepened like I have friends who are just even people I'll just meet and I'll mention my girlfriend and I own a business together and they're like, Whoa, no. And and I love it. I absolutely love it. It deepens our relationship because as Lisa mentioned, this is creative. Building a

business, being entrepreneurial, that's a creative process. It's not with like a palette and a paintbrush, but it's very, very creative. we get to do this super cool thing all day long that, by the way, is helping tons of people and satisfying this creative urge that we both have. then we Take the hat off at night we have dinner together or do a jigsaw puzzle or watch Breaking Bad or whatever we're doing that night. and we enjoy the personal sides. I almost feel like having the business together has made our merging like full. Like we experience every aspect of life together and it's wonderful. I want to ask you guys one last question, Chris, what's one thing you just love and adore about Lisa? And then Lisa, what do you love and adore about Chris? So years ago, my two boys said to me, not like meanly, they were just like wondering, because Lisa doesn't like football. We don't have a lot of like common interests that you would list. It's not a hundred percent true, but but we have a lot of very different tastes and things. My kids were like, you don't like any of the same stuff. Why do you like her so much? and I thought about that. And it's not that we like have the same tastes, but the characteristics we have. We're both super enthusiastic. So that's going to be my official answer. Her enthusiasm and zest for life. We're super enthusiastic. We're creative together. these are the things that we share. I'm not a religious person. I think we we get a life. this is it. And I want to enjoy it fully, fully, fully, fully. And so does Lisa. I think that's my favorite. my favorite thing is Chris's brain. His brain is just incredible. When I met him and he's like football frap, I was like, he's like one of, you know, mass produced people. But I quickly learned that I I do believe that he was a gifted child and this gifted adult. Like he just makes these connections. he throws himself into everything he does and works really hard. But the brain is just amazing. Like the creativity, the humor. he also helps me make good decisions because sometimes I'll be like, it's getting up like, wait a minute. So she's already said she's gonna keep my brain in a jar after I die, which I think is creepy, but that's not. So where can our listeners find you guys? Where can they hook up with you? I know you have a website, so So easy. So easy. BinThere God Out dot com is our website. The books are bin there got out on Amazon. we have a podcast called Bin There Got Out that you guys are coming on. We have a YouTube channel. We're all over social media, especially Instagram is our home base. Yeah. Courses at just look up been there got out and you'll find us. And you could write to us at Lisa or Chris at bin there got out dot com and we always answer. send me the links, I'll put them in the show notes thank you, you two, so much for more in depth about behind the scenes where you guys were at in your life to help other people maybe the second chance isn't about getting your old life back. It's about discovering the life you couldn't imagine while you are still surviving. So we can still find love, purpose, and a way to turn what we live through into something that helps others. getting out can be an ending, but it can also be a new beginning. So until next time, keep listening and keep believing in what's next. Thank you guys.