20 | Redefining Failure: The Mindset That Turns Setbacks Into Forward Steps의 전체 녹취록

on my calendar and it says ⁓ and holding a spot on my calendar. And every time I'd see that, I'd be like, ⁓ no, there's been a failure somewhere. There's been a failure. ⁓ And really ⁓ like best, biggest failures in my life. unveiled and revealed the largest opportunities for growth and when I started to just when I feel like something didn't go the way I planned it I now stop and say why what can I learn And in what ways was it a win? Was it a success? Was it an opportunity for growth? So that's how I am both to the term failure and how I currently feel I define it. Tell me about you. Jen Brown: Hugo, first, let me just say that calendar invite, it also gave me that reaction. And I did kind of do this intentionally because it's so uncomfortable. I wanted to sit with that discomfort before talking about this today. So a few things that you said, I believe Maxwell also agrees in that sense of failure is the learning opportunity. And it goes hand in hand with any, quote, success, any, quote, wins that we have. Because we use, and I'll say failure, but really the term for me is learning opportunities. ⁓ we use those opportunities to reflect on what am I taking away from this, then that means we get better and we grow. So failure and success are just hand in hand in life. I think some of the biggest things for me. Over the years, I have gotten much better about those learning opportunities and getting to those places a lot faster. Earlier in my leadership journey, I have ⁓ a to define me as a person. ⁓ And place was a really hard place to be in. Instead of seeing the... the failure as a what instead of taking it so personally. And so think there was some ⁓ maturity that came in my leadership journey to be able to separate that. ⁓ then the other big thing, ⁓ Maxwell talks about this too, but when, and you talked about this right now, you got to play the game and learn, right? But backing that up even a step further is the courage to get on the field and play. At one point, was pretty paralyzed from the fear of failure that I didn't even want to play the game, much less go out there and then fail, right? So, ⁓ know, one of my favorite Teddy Roosevelt quotes is getting down into the arena ⁓ ⁓ to be great in that sense. So I start to see it ⁓ step one for me is recognizing I got to show up. Hugo Rodriguez: Right? Jen Brown: And then it's all opportunity. Whether I quote win or quote lose, I am winning because I'm showing up. Hugo Rodriguez: That's so true. That's exactly the way to think about these things. It's all winning. It's winning. Because if you go in there and win, you win. If you go in there and lose, you win. It's all winning. ⁓ love it. The other thing I that we need to bracket here is the... ⁓ The definition of failure versus winning is all in your head. It is all in the way you approach it, the way you ⁓ own it or don't own it. I have found, if someone tells me, ⁓ man, I guess that's a fail. Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: think of this quote from the Big Lebowski, well, you know, it's like your opinion, ⁓ I mean, just like your opinion. ⁓ Winning and ⁓ subjective opinion. It's not an objective thing and you get to define what is winning and what is losing. Jen Brown: So Hugo, you were sharing with me the story about this race that you've been doing and this notion of, I'm in fourth place, keep going. Hugo Rodriguez: Sort of so yeah I have been happily in a place where I'm able to train. I'm training again for triathlon and I'm able to ⁓ compete. I'm doing sprint tries this spring and I've stacked up a few races to kind of see how the training is going and the races have been going great. the lesson that I learned this weekend ⁓ ⁓ that ⁓ didn't know it before but I got a really good view. of it, I'm the only one that can define winning and losing in race. ⁓ so the thing I was telling you about ⁓ earlier was that I ⁓ you know, together my race. was in it. The swim leg ⁓ felt successful to me in terms of like my ability to get into my swim zone and to get my breathing where I wanted it to be, get my stroke rate where I wanted it to be, came out, in what I felt like was a fairly quick transition, although there's always room for ⁓ growth there. then I'm on the bike. and I'm riding the bike, I had a really rocky start on the bike. I had trouble getting my feet into the and getting the rhythm going, but it started to click. And I my heart rate up, I was ⁓ at a high level, and I saw somebody ahead of me that was struggling a little bit. I was able to catch up to him, ⁓ and as I him, said, go man, you're in fourth place now. And two things occurred to me simultaneously. The first one is I had a feeling there were more than four people in front of me, but really that wasn't the important thing. The important thing was, the thought that occurred to me was whether I'm in fourth or 40th, I am delivering like the results that I need to deliver. doesn't like what I where I was stacked in the field just didn't matter as much as is my physical output in the zone I needed to be to have what I would define it as a successful bike. race bike lane, right? And it was. And there in the course of that, you know, going back and forth, there were people that I could measure myself against. There was another rider who passed me, I passed him, he passed me and you know, ⁓ Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: found that comparison with that other cyclist to be completely unhelpful because there's no way to tell if he's half my age or twice my age if he is a you know professional cyclist or first time triathlete like I don't know anything about him Jen Brown: Right? Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: Only one I know about is me. And so for me, I'm really out there just racing myself. And that was the second thought that I had. The first one is, I don't know whether in fact there are five guys in front of me or 25. The second thought almost immediately after that is like, I'm really only competing with myself. And I get to

decide whether this is an effort that I'm proud of or an effort that I am feels is lacking. There you go. Jen Brown: I love that. And this reminds me of a quote that I heard ⁓ last year at the Global Leadership Summit that I can't compare my beginning to somebody else's middle or further staged advancement, right? Like we're not on the same journey necessarily. Hugo Rodriguez: That's right. That's right. Jen Brown: And so when we are comparing failure or success to someone else, we're not in the same starting place, even if we line up at the same starting line. Hugo Rodriguez: And this is why for me those terms are so unhelpful. And another thing you and I have talked about is I feel like a parent, I've my children the disservice ⁓ of like for them that the world is pass fail, like the world is about failure or success ⁓ without context of really you're only competing with your own abilities. ⁓ And in fact, not competing. Life is just the journey of improving and the things that you want to do better, that you need to do better, ⁓ that you can grow in. ⁓ then you compare yourself to where you were yesterday. ⁓ ideally, ⁓ that is a motivator for you. Although again, like, ⁓ that matters to me is how am I doing today? Like the comparison can be unhelpful because yesterday may have been sunny and today rainy, right? So how am I doing in the context of now? Jen Brown: But again, that goes back to this notion of, I showing up in the arena? Am I willing to get on the ball field? Am I making a choice to grow and learn every day? I think this, and I share this about my son and I think about this a lot. In fact, you know, he's going through some things right now and I'm choosing really to lean into the learning opportunity that comes with it. How do you grow from the experience? And I think, you know, I too before was in that sort of push yourself kind of mode. And that's what I learned. so of course that's how I parent it until I know better and until I grow. Hugo Rodriguez: Can I share an interesting example from my work last week? So one of the classes I teach here is around leadership. And obviously I've got a mix of students from 18 year old to 22 year old. And there's a big difference there. you come into college, you're very different than when you leave college. But still. they are all very focused on grades because that's what we teach them from a very young age. Like life is about you're going to get graded and you have to perform in order to get the better grades and blah, blah. At this point in my class, ⁓ am so like, ⁓ just, it is not about the grades. ⁓ Maybe that's because leadership is really about the journey and not about the destination, but ⁓ ⁓ Jen Brown: Yes. Hugo Rodriguez: had a student come to me this week because ⁓ didn't put the work in on a project that is extended over the second half of the course. He finds himself now ⁓ that that grade is going to go in. He hasn't done the work. He and said could I something ⁓ ⁓ could I do an

alternative project to make up for not doing this developmental project over the second course of the semester? And I said, why do you want to do that? And he said, well, feel like ⁓ I've let you down, I've let myself down, and I want to do something so I don't feel like I let you down. Jen Brown: Mmm. Hugo Rodriguez: It's great that I have that ⁓ leverage him, but that's not the point of the class. The point of the class was about developing ⁓ time, identifying something that you needed to work on ⁓ working on it, building a new talent, a new skill, ⁓ a coach to get you there. ⁓ that you can only do over, you ⁓ ⁓ months with repeated efforts. So there's no paper that he can write or assignment test he can take. None of that is really replacing what I asked, what I hoped he would get out of the assignment. And it really, again, it's not about the grade. So helping, so for better or worse, said, here's what I wanted you to get out of that assignment. Don't worry. Jen Brown: right. Hugo Rodriguez: because that's not what this is about. I would like you to come back to me with an alternative for how you're going to get something from this experience similar to what you would have gotten had you done. assignment I asked for it. It kind of ⁓ his mind because we went from a framework of ⁓ ⁓ someone opinion, right? He wanted to do this because he didn't want to let me down, you know, it was this external opinion he was fighting for ⁓ and the Two, ⁓ it's about development. It is about your growth. Jen Brown: Yes. Hugo Rodriguez: So think about how you want to grow and how you're going to build something that will allow you to grow. And I'm not sure what's going to happen I mean, this poor guy, like this is maybe the first time a professor's ever told him that that's the objective. Now go and figure something out. ⁓ But. Again, success versus failure, winning versus losing, life is really, you're only racing yourself and it's only about getting better ⁓ with every opportunity. Jen Brown: Yes, we had the conversation, ⁓ spoken before about this part too, right? When you are in your job ⁓ or owning your own business and you know there are set requirements ⁓ to be able to get to that next level ⁓ ⁓ that here's the mission objective, here's where I need to get to for the mission. So, That's a definition of success. it goes back to one of the best leadership principles of start with the end in mind, right? Be clear about what that mission looks like. And that is external. And then there's the internal piece that comes with it. Because we can do the minimum amount to get to that expected desired result. When we add the internal piece though, we are exceeding expectations and that's where the internal race, the internal definition success starts to come into place. ⁓ Hugo Rodriguez: Can we break these up real quick so that we have some clear space to work with? the first one ⁓ they're both really important, but I would say to take the first one. ⁓ you step into

a job and your boss says, this is what I'm going to grade you on, right? Here's why I hired you to do this. Here's what I would like to see you do, right? ⁓ You clearly have... ⁓ Jen Brown: Yeah. right. Hugo Rodriguez: a success failure framework there, right? Like if you're going to deliver the results that your boss asked for, you're going to get a passing grade. If you fail to do that, you're going to get a failing grade. That's your mindset going in, right? Whether that's a project or a mission. Jen Brown: Yes. Yes. And let's flip that a little bit or let's expand on that a little bit. If you are the business owner, if you are the leader setting those expectations, are you clear in what you're setting so that people know what success quote looks like? Hugo Rodriguez: Wait, wait, wait, You tripped me there with just a second. Do people know what success looks like? I think you mean, do you know what success looks like as the business owner or the employee? Right. Again, I'm really careful around other people's definition of my success. I have to understand how I live in relationship to that. Jen Brown: Both, right. You have to define that. Hugo Rodriguez: So if my boss says these are my expectations for your performance now I have an external grader involved. first thing I'm going to do ⁓ ⁓ at those and have a conversation with my boss around... ⁓ I can do this and I will deliver these results or this is beyond my ability or it's outside of my values or whatever and I choose not to step into that particular arena. And you have to be clear with yourself. When someone says this is your job, these are the parameters, is this going to be something you want to challenge yourself to do? Because if you're setting yourself up for quote unquote failure, what's the purpose there? Like there have been assignments that I have taken that I knew would require me to grow, right? And so there's a huge asterisk on that assignment. Like in order to get to the end of this, I will probably trip and fall and have to get up and go again and trip and fall and I will make mistakes and I will in some people's eyes fail, but not in mine. Jen Brown: ⁓ yeah, ⁓ yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: Right? Because I understand that I am on a journey that will require me to grow. So I think that at the beginning of those situations where there is some sort of external validation, you need to be really honest with yourself. Is this something I can take on that I want to take on that aligns for me? All of those things. And I think, you know, my clients sometimes find themselves in a work situation where their values don't align or their skills don't align and ⁓ And the growth is going to be ferocious there, right? Like they are going to have to really confront some serious challenges. And they need to figure, you know, is this the right place to be, come up with a strategy, all of those things. But there are times when there is that external validation thing. When you are a small business owner, I hope that before you get into this small business, you are thinking, are all those... alignment issues, are all those challenge issues, are they within what I want for myself? ⁓ If you choose an entrepreneurial opportunity, ⁓ they're all really growth opportunities. Jen Brown: Yeah. there are lots of learning opportunities. Hugo Rodriguez: the whole point. ⁓ no such thing as a free lunch. You're going to get into this thing and you're going to have to hustle. You're going to learn new skills. You're going to quote unquote fail. You are going to deliver less than you hoped at the outset. you have to have the energy to go into it knowing ⁓ is what I'm signed up for. ⁓ think again, failure, is such a ⁓ Jen Brown: Absolutely. Hugo Rodriguez: bad way to think about it because failure is so binary, failure is so heavy when you ⁓ you in your head say I have failed that's a huge lift like you have to ⁓ that ⁓ that term go and just be like wow I learned something there ⁓ like that was a challenge that I came up short on and learned a whole bunch. Jen Brown: Yep. So, and that's why for me, learning opportunity is such a powerful way to reframe failure because it is all about the growth of learning and being intentional when you're going into that. So Hugo, I love when you said like, okay, I'm going into the job or I'm going into creating the business or whatever the opportunity is, the academic environment. Here's I understand is required ⁓ and then internally, what are my values that are going to help me grow when it's hard? Because it's going to be hard. So anticipating to the best of our abilities ⁓ those particular challenges may show up. you know, where we need that extra fortitude and resilience, where we need our values to really be the fuel under us, to help us not take the misses in a bad way, right? Not personally, but as opportunities to continue going. Hugo Rodriguez: That's such, you know, if there's any one line for a discussion around failure, it is that. It is that when you feel that you missed the mark. Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: or you failed or you came up short reframing that as quickly as you can in terms of but where was the success in this what did i learn how will i do it differently next time like that that pivot is so powerful if you dwell on the failure Jen Brown: Right. Hugo Rodriguez: and you load yourself down with that, it's much, much harder to pick yourself up and dust yourself off. If you immediately say, woo, that was a good learning opportunity. What did I learn from that, right? You you're back at it. And especially for entrepreneurs, think that is because the path to entrepreneurial success is basically one pothole after another, and you're going to step in them all. Jen Brown: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: right? And your ability to quickly dust yourself off and get on to the next one, pocketing a lesson? That's like picking up money along the road, right? As you learn, you get better and stronger and

faster and all of those things. But you just get stuck in the puddle, if you get stuck in that with that heavy weight of failure around your neck, ⁓ you're going to need to talk to a coach. ⁓ Jen Brown: Well, but I think in both cases, a coach can be super helpful to help get you there. But I think that's also why what I love about the John book is How to Get a Return on Failure because as he says, right, you have ways to capitalize on that failure and you have ways to let it be just. Hugo Rodriguez: Yeah. Jen Brown: opportunity. ⁓ Hugo, what you just said is the faster you learn from that and you can pick yourself up and dust it off and keep going, that's when you're capitalizing. You know, how many times have some of the greatest athletes, some of the greatest business owners, entrepreneurs, quote, successful people said, man, it took me ⁓ a thousand shots before I finally made that score, or it took me X number of, you know, attempts at refining this business idea before it finally took off. The whole key is yourself up, not taking it personally, learning and to keep going with the adjustments from what you've learned. ⁓ ⁓ know, when I just, when I think about this, there's an element in here of what values are important to you that will get you there. Because if learning is not important, if resilience is not important, if your purpose is not clear, then those things are much harder to do. So I'm curious, Hugo, from your experience, what's one of the greatest learning opportunities that really shaped who you are? Hugo Rodriguez: ⁓ wow. You didn't. I I look back on my career, and by learning opportunities, really meant failures, right? Like, ⁓ didn't want to freak me out. didn't want to do ⁓ Right, ⁓ I've had, ⁓ I said, if I didn't... Jen Brown: You didn't know I was asking that question. I told you, learning opportunities, how I define this. ⁓ Hugo Rodriguez: My biggest growth jumps were around these fails and ah-has that happen with them. But to be honest, I mess something up every day. I mess multiple things up every day. But I don't think of them as failures. It's like, ooh, I'm not going to touch that thing again. That was hot, right? ⁓ not a failure. That's learning opportunity. But I had big ones, right? Let's give you a couple, you know. ⁓ Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: Early in my career, I had the opportunity to ⁓ make a pitch to, I'm gonna try to make this as universally useful as I can, less foreign service centric, but ⁓ I was seeking a job as a staffer close to ⁓ a high level executive. And that executive gave me her generosity a big chunk of time. Like I can't even imagine going back in my mind ⁓ she found time on her schedule to allow me to come in and pitch her why ⁓ should give me this ⁓ staff job working on her team. And I pitched all the reasons and pitched them again and pitched them again ⁓ walked out of there and expecting I nailed it and got the job. You know, for one thing, boy, I was so ⁓ captivating she gave me a whole hour of her time to talk about and then as we got closer and closer to the the date of the announcement I reached out to just confirm that I was shoe in for that role ⁓ the person who was actually in charge of hiring said ⁓ shortlist and I and I like what ⁓ what had actually happened in that meeting while I was so busy talking and talking and talking ⁓ that this ⁓ human being this exec ⁓ gave me so much of her time was also giving me wisdom and explaining that ⁓ didn't have the qualifications for that job ⁓ I was so busy on transmit and not on receive that I didn't hear it Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: And ⁓ that was a really, I didn't get that job. Then I compounded the error by taking a job in a rival organization at the same high level. And that happened to be directly contrary to the really good advice that she had given me, which was, hey, I can't give you this job. You don't have the qualifications. But if you take this other job, you'll build the qualifications. And then I'd love to have you on my team. I didn't hear that. because I was so busy talking. And then when I took a job elsewhere, she said, she thought to herself, I imagine, we've never really had this conversation, you know, I gave him good advice, chose to ignore it and go elsewhere. ⁓ And that ⁓ her a message about who I was. ⁓ So I had to learn from that, right? Years later, ⁓ She forgave me and welcomed me back her team, but ⁓ truth was I was ⁓ a talker and I needed to learn to be a better listener and be more curious. Thankfully, that happened very early in my career and I was able to ⁓ the fruits of that lesson ⁓ 20 plus years. ⁓ Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: Again, like that, I could give you a dozen big ⁓ moments, big, big opportunities that I learned ⁓ failure. And I could give you ones from today and from yesterday and from the day before that are just small ones. ⁓ about you? You want to you have any to share? ⁓ Jen Brown: yeah, like you, they happen every day. And it's, know, a question of how do I choose to, to view them? ⁓ I think over the course of my career in the state department, ⁓ lots of learning opportunities and the big that stands out as the ⁓ overarching theme is Admitting to myself and to others ⁓ when I miss mark. No blame, right? Well, there was early in my career, there was a lot of self-blame that I carried. But learning to let that go for the sake of the learning nugget became very powerful for me. Being able to say, I missed it. Hugo Rodriguez: That's right. Jen Brown: here's where we are, here's the recommendation on how to recover from this, adapting and keep going. And I remember ⁓ admitting that to a pretty senior official one time when I was new in a job that felt way over my head. And the grace he showed me was powerful and such a supporter. ⁓ I... because as what he said is, you came in here and you owned it and you have a plan and I'm behind you, what can I do to help you? And I just realized that when we make mistakes, it's

much, and we own it, it's much easier to ask for that help at that point. So that was a really powerful thing for me. And I think about where I am now. Hugo Rodriguez: So true. So true. Jen Brown: quote, working on my own in that sense, right? I don't have necessarily someone else to admit mistakes to. So I admit them to myself ⁓ to those closest to me as supporters and really just ⁓ the theme is there. ⁓ Not but leaning into grace. ⁓ And do I want to take this experience and reframe where I'm going from here? Hugo Rodriguez: I had a student who came into class, he was a little bit late because he'd been in some sort of ⁓ competition. I ⁓ think it might have been a pitch competition for like a rocket pitch or something like that, business opportunity. And he came into class and I said, so how'd go? And he said something like, ⁓ They picked the other guy because he was better dressed or something. And my immediate thought was, wow, that is really not owning your own power here. If you come out of that experience thinking that you did not succeed, Jen Brown: night. Hugo Rodriguez: because of external elements, have lost all win there. You will not ever improve if you blame others for you not ⁓ successfully surmounting that challenge, whatever it happened to be. ⁓ And one of the things we always talk about as a key trait for great leaders is humility. Jen Brown: Yes. Hugo Rodriguez: right? humility unlocks ⁓ of this learning, ⁓ of the goodness that's back here behind the door, right? ⁓ that guy had come in ⁓ his mindset was, yeah, came up short because I didn't prepare enough, I didn't anticipate that this would be a question they'd ask me, I didn't do this, I didn't do that. ⁓ He's given himself all the treasure. ⁓ Jen Brown: Yes. Hugo Rodriguez: that humility brings that he can now take and improve the next time he goes to do one of these things. If he did what he did, basically come in and say ⁓ external factors prevented me from succeeding, close that treasure chest, locked it up and threw it away. It just doesn't get any of that goodness out of it. Jen Brown: No, it's so true. And I know this is a hard mindset to adopt, some ways, and you know, I hear this from ⁓ other coaches around me, the question becomes, how can I fail today? Because I then get to learn and grow and be better. And so embracing, quote, failure ⁓ that key toward where you want to get to. I'm not saying success, but toward your destination toward as part of as a pivotal part of your journey. Hugo Rodriguez: Yeah, I'm going to reframe that because again, the word gives me hives man, like, seeking fear. How can I fail I think, I think actually that's a Charlie Munger. You know who Charlie Munger is? So I think that is the heart of his inversion trick, which is, you know, if, I, ⁓ I ⁓ about things in terms of how I can fail at them, ⁓ will ultimately succeed. It's easier than setting high goals and trying to attain them. Jen Brown: Hahaha! Yes, yes. Hugo Rodriguez: setting failure line and then getting over it. ⁓ ⁓ look at it more like ⁓ risks can take? How can I be fearless? ⁓ How I try something that ⁓ outside my comfort zone? ⁓ That is mindset for me. ⁓ Jen Brown: Yes. Hugo Rodriguez: failures involved in there potentially but you know just seeking to fail seems somehow went to antithetical to being human but being a being a fearless risk taker seems superhuman right like that's what I want to do I want to I want to be willing to ⁓ willing for my reach to exceed my grasp. I want to go for it. And I'm not going to worry about whether I fall short because there is greatness in that as well. Jen Brown: love that you reframed it that way because that's actually the mindset I'm in, right? It's not like, me do the bare minimum and fail. It is let me outside of my comfort zone. And I used to have one of those, ⁓ I can't think of it. It was this kind awesome circle. ⁓ It a Venn diagram, I don't think, but. ⁓ Hugo Rodriguez: Yes, exactly. Jen Brown: It was, you know, when I'm in that place of discomfort, that is where the magic happens. That is often where the failure happens, if you will, but reframing it, that's where the learning happens. And I can't get to magic if I'm not learning. Hugo Rodriguez: Yes. I totally agree. That is a powerful, powerful mindset. ⁓ I mentioned the Jim Murphy, ⁓ Inner Excellence mindset what if, ⁓ if the only way to grow and ultimately succeed is to fail on route? I don't think that's a what if. I think it is a yes, it must be the pathway to growth is good is ⁓ ⁓ Jen Brown: Yes! Hugo Rodriguez: ⁓ through mistakes. Right? The Stoics say, you know, that the obstacle is the way. The only way you grow is by challenging yourself, being a risk taker, being fearless, messing it up. Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: taking the lessons from that and getting to the next one. The other thing that Jim Murphy says is, I think it's a really great mindset and changed my mind about things. And it relates to the Teddy Roosevelt quote about getting into the arena. Your competitors are your partners in the dance, right? So another way that the obstacle is the way is that Jen Brown: Mmm, love it. Hugo Rodriguez: Your opponent on the field is not there to defeat you. Your opponent on the field is there to get the best out of you. So when you charge into the world and you, you know, and we're doing away with this failure do away with the enemy mindset at the same time. Because that, ⁓ that you currently think of as the enemy, whether that is your competitor in the marketplace or your competitor on the sports field, they are there to help you be your best, to challenge you to bring your A game every time. And I love that, right? Because you go from a place of fear to a place of fearlessness. You go from a place of, you know, ⁓ like, Jen Brown: I love that, yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: risk to welcoming like I want to I want to get into the arena to dance with that partner and see great ⁓ I can and how great ⁓ I can him or her be right like let's push the envelope here let's see what we can do and that changes everything ⁓ Jen Brown: Right. Yeah, I love it. To me, that speaks to that comparison to gratitude because I get to switch in that competition to, wow, thank you for ⁓ me to grow and be better. Hugo Rodriguez: I know if I mentioned this on the podcast before, but I have been just humming on this kind of that really, think, defines my own kind of ⁓ and the I ⁓ want to in the classroom. ⁓ And so, I said, I may have said it before, but grit, grace, gratitude, and empowering greatness. That grit is that willingness to get into the arena you mentioned grace and now you just mentioned gratitude right like those are so fundamental to only your own ⁓ to adapt and overcome and persevere and be resilient which is the grit piece ⁓ also ⁓ empowering greatness in yourself and in other people ⁓ We it is just we're lucky to be able to step into the arena ⁓ Jen Brown: That's right. That's it. That's it. So as we wrap up here today, Hugo, I just want to say thank you for a ⁓ challenging ⁓ and wonderful conversation on this because I know that both of us see learning opportunities are so critical for that, for our continued journeys, right? And the goal is how can we help lift others to not stay stuck when things don't work. Hugo Rodriguez: Yes. Yes. Right. That is our role in the world, right? ⁓ And when we meet them and they are stuck, we give them the grace ⁓ to and to ⁓ forward and we try to lift them up. That's so true. Jen Brown: Yeah. That's, that is it. So for our viewers and our listeners, here's your challenge. Where is one area in your life where you can reframe quote failure into a learning opportunity that makes you better today? I hope you all have a great one. Thanks Hugo. Hugo Rodriguez: Thank you, Jen