Frederick Toates, Professor of Biological Psychology - Desire, Cheating, Psychedelics and Why men send d*ck pics (#14)의 전체 녹취록

they were freely available in shops in Amsterdam. 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:25.199 Uh yeah. 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.480 Uh, but uh mixed feelings about them. 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:29.519 Yes. 00:03:29.920 --> 00:03:36.160 But did you ever try so what was then uh the setting that you uh experienced that? 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:49.680 Was it like more uh entertainment-ish or more as a uh guided experience by someone that because no, it wasn't a guided experience by anyone, it was just me on my own. 00:03:49.920 --> 00:03:54.079 Well, well, actually it was my wife at the time, so I wasn't completely on my own. 00:03:54.319 --> 00:04:01.600 Um I I had a couple of good experiences with them, but then one was really terrifying. 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:10.240 And um so I think they bring out whatever is there, they they accentuate it, make it stronger. 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.319 And um, so I wouldn't want I I'm not sure I'd want to repeat it. 00:04:14.399 --> 00:04:18.480 I might sometime come back to Amsterdam and might try again, yes. 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:19.759 Yeah, yeah. 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:45.600 I I personally went through like uh I I uh apparently those substances are not like classified as psychedelics, but it was this guided experience more so or like more in uh therapy settings, but I wouldn't say it was a therapy, so you know it was like in a dark room, uh closed eyes, appropriately selected music. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:05:08.639 And then I went through this, and uh I this was a really very interesting experience for me, and yes, more on a positive, leaning more toward the positive side than a negative, but again, that was only one experience on a not very um big dose of the substance. 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:21.519 So but but but I definitely am leaning toward repeating it and uh trying trying it again and seeing what it will bring out, yes. 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.719 Yes, yeah, I find it super interesting also. 00:05:25.039 --> 00:05:47.199 Um but Fred, so I would like to know a little bit more about your environment that you were growing up, and how do you think that this environment um helped you to do developed your own um sexual experience in like when you were older? 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:49.279 I don't think it did. 00:05:49.439 --> 00:06:00.639 I grew up in a very Calvinistic environment um where sex was never discussed, or if it was discussed, then it was only in the context of something to be avoided. 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.519 It was never discussed as something positive. 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:08.800 So I I was always sort of given warnings about um what not to do. 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:15.920 Um so I really don't know how that development, how on earth I came from that development to be writing books on the subject. 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:17.279 I really don't know. 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:21.839 I couldn't tell you, um, because I I simply don't know. 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:30.240 But all I do all I do know is that it was a very protected environment, Calvinistic Protestant. 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:33.360 I think you said yours was too, although yours was Catholic. 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:33.839 Yes. 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.199 But the similarities are quite striking. 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:38.959 Um so I don't know. 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:40.879 I don't know what it did to my development. 00:06:41.039 --> 00:06:42.479 I really can't tell you that. 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:47.039 I think I sort of got into sex academically as a bit of an accident, really. 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:51.120 And do you remember what was this accidental moment? 00:06:51.680 --> 00:07:01.360 In quotes, accidental, because well, the most important thing that to happen to me in terms of becoming into sex was a Dutchman, Erik Janssen. 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:16.399 Um uh what a former colleague of Mark Spearing, now in Belgium at uh place uh, well, I would call it Levin, but they don't they they say that's the French word that it's Levin or something, something in Dutch. 00:07:16.479 --> 00:07:17.439 I can't reckon. 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:21.680 Do not be bothered by this, it's hard to pronounce those things. 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:26.000 I would call it Levin, which is roughly the French pronunciation. 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:31.839 Anyway, in those days, well, in those days he was actually in at Kinsey Institute in the United States. 00:07:32.159 --> 00:07:33.120 That's really cool. 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:33.599 Yeah. 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:40.879 I had published something on sex, but um and it didn't have a great impact. 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:48.959 But then when Eric came along, I met him at a conference and he said he liked the thing very much that I published earlier. 00:07:49.839 --> 00:08:14.000 And would I care to come to Amsterdam sometime to give a lecture to the conference of I think it was the in of some international organization of sex researchers, which I did, and I thought, well, if I'm gonna discuss with this body, this profoundly important body of sex researchers, I'd better say something original rather than just repeat what's in the article. 00:08:14.159 --> 00:08:23.680 So I put my head to head down to study the subject in greater detail for the prospect of getting invited to Amsterdam, which came very soon after that. 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:26.079 And then I did present something. 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.199 Um, and then I thought, well, I'd better publish this somewhere. 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:33.120 So I did a published in the Journal of Sex Research. 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:42.159 Um and Eric Janssen likes it very much, and um that was a terrific boost, and John Bancroft liked it as well. 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.120 They were co-authors on the papers. 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:47.920 So that's how I got to where I am today, really. 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:49.279 That's really cool. 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:59.920 Yeah, it was a little bit sort of, I guess, i

accidental, but i i i i i if you say that you already wrote something about sex, then maybe there was some interest. 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:14.480 And you know, I think because uh in our cases, it like when we were growing up, we weren't able to explore it in depth because it was kind of denied for us, I guess. 00:09:14.800 --> 00:09:32.160 Then maybe we were just so curious about this, just so willing to discover something that we didn't know that we just dive into it and try to learn as much as we can, and from there the interest ex grows and we explore it more. 00:09:32.400 --> 00:09:39.840 Yes, so so I guess you know because it was so denied to us, therefore we decided to dive into it. 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:47.520 It could be, could be, yes, it could be, it's almost biblical the forbidden fruit of uh Eve in the Garden of Eden. 00:09:48.800 --> 00:09:50.640 Yes, I think it could be that. 00:09:50.879 --> 00:10:11.360 Yes, and uh so how the sexual um arousal, sexual desire, um uh develops in people because it I guess it goes, it can develop in different stages of our lives, even when we are yet not born. 00:10:11.680 --> 00:10:20.879 So would you would you mind elaborating on this, like how it develops uh the sexual arousal and desires within us? 00:10:21.040 --> 00:10:23.680 And which stage perhaps is the most important? 00:10:24.640 --> 00:10:29.200 I'm not sure one could say that any stage is more important than any other. 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:37.520 Uh what I think seems to happen is that uh you don't come into the world with a heterosexual desire. 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:42.080 I think most people end up with a heterosexual desire, not all, of course. 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:54.000 Um what I think it's not entirely clear what happens, but some kind of process of arousal gets associated with the another individual. 00:10:54.400 --> 00:11:09.600 And I guess there is a bias, there almost must be a bias towards forming an attachment, sexual attachment to someone of the opposite sex, though I think that's debatable because it could be a cultural thing. 00:11:10.160 --> 00:11:31.520 Um, the issue is this that it's so in evolutionary theory, if you believe evolutionary theory, then the imperative for sexual desire to be targeted towards a person of the opposite sex is so important that I sometimes wonder why evolution has left it to a kind of chance thing. 00:11:31.680 --> 00:11:43.200 You happen to meet the right person at the right time, you happen to feel arousal, and that consolidates that person in your motivational system as the target of desire. 00:11:43.520 --> 00:12:05.520 Now, of course, some people that it occurs with a homosexual attraction, and I think you know that's not entirely surprising that it could happen that way, given that nature has given this kind of degree of freedom, if you like, that arousal is not intrinsically attached to a heterosexual individual. 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:12.000 And for some people, uh, so-called asexuals, it never gets attached to another individual. 00:12:12.160 --> 00:12:25.920 So they can still be sexually aroused, they can still feel feel aroused where they can masturbate, they can enjoy sex with themselves, but it doesn't refer to anyone outside themselves. 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:35.600 I think that's probably also another consequence of these degrees of freedom that have been given to the sexual motivation system by evolution. 00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:43.440 Why evolution didn't specify that it has to be a um heterosexual partner? 00:12:44.160 --> 00:12:44.480 Yeah. 00:12:44.800 --> 00:12:46.080 I really don't know. 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:49.680 There must be some cost attached to that in evolutionary terms. 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:51.360 I can't think what it can be. 00:12:51.680 --> 00:12:52.000 Yeah. 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:59.520 And there is this room for emotional attachment, which takes much more, you know, it's not like we just meet to have sex just so we can have babies. 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:16.560 I mean, I guess therefore, like we are together in a relationship so we can like the man and woman can work together toward growing the children that they have, because maybe by yourself it would be much harder. 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.320 I mean, I'm sure it's much harder if there is only a single parent. 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:20.800 Yes. 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:27.759 Uh and you know they have to raise the child, and so if there are two of them, it's much easier. 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:28.160 Sure. 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:36.640 And generally, so maybe therefore the emotional attachment attachment is necessary. 00:13:37.520 --> 00:13:40.560 But yeah, I think it is necessary. 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:42.800 Yeah, I I think you're absolutely right. 00:13:42.960 --> 00:14:21.120 Um, even in this day and age, with with um welfare systems and a benevolent state and so on, it's still advantageous to have two parents bring up a child, clearly from economic and so all sorts of protection, all sorts of but in our evolutionary history, it was probably even more imperative when there was no welfare state, no social security and things like this, that uh that pair bonds were formed, and they seem to be formed by endorphins and other neural hormones that seem to do the trick of pair bonding people. 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:29.520 So I so I think after you've had sex with someone, then it does increase the tendency to form a bond with that person. 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:32.879 Now, obviously, that doesn't happen to everybody, that's clear. 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:35.440 Some people just want a string of partners. 00:14:35.520 --> 00:14:37.840 Um why is that do you think? 00:14:38.640 --> 00:15:03.360 Like what I think is pitting two control systems against each other because there is one control system the based upon uh various substances, uh neuro hormonal substances, um, that is tending to bond, but there is another neural system that is

seeking for variety. 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.720 They're clearly in conflict with each other. 00:15:07.280 --> 00:15:13.280 And evolution has given you two tendencies that uh pull you in opposite directions. 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:20.400 The one tendency is to stay faithful, monogamous with the one partner, bring up the children together. 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.800 The other tendency is to spread your genes more widely. 00:15:25.280 --> 00:15:31.600 Now that's clearly more evident in males than females because the male has almost nothing to lose by it. 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:37.759 Something to lose, but very little by comparison with what the female has to lose. 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:46.720 If she gets it wrong, then it's tied up her reproductive um system for ten months, say. 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:51.600 So it pays for her to get it right to choose the right male. 00:15:52.000 --> 00:16:00.640 The male gets it wrong, it's only tied up his reproductive system for what, for a young man, half an hour, an hour, something like that, until he's recovered. 00:16:02.560 --> 00:16:04.560 In my case, several months. 00:16:05.280 --> 00:16:12.400 But um I don't know the answer to this one. 00:16:12.640 --> 00:16:16.240 Evolution has given you those mechanisms. 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:29.360 And if you want to be terribly blunt, crude about it, then this the optimal solution is to form a pair bond and to cheat but not get caught. 00:16:30.480 --> 00:17:09.200 This is the thing, because why like if we connect together in a pair, yes, there is this emotional engagement, and uh for several months or even years, there is this passion and love and well the the attachment to each other, the emotional attachment, and we bear in this relationship between two people, and then suddenly we decide to seek novelty, and we started desiring desiring different people or different sexual experiences. 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:29.839 So I I wonder why is that like why at some point like we we're like okay, that's boring, and let's go often behind the back of our partner, not saying anything, and let's find different uh sexually exciting things, yes, or different sexually exciting people. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:30.799 Why is that? 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:34.079 And is there a way to prevent it? 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:36.720 Oh, that's a good question. 00:17:36.879 --> 00:17:52.559 Well, people do find ways to prevent it, they find swinging monogamy, and even within one relationship, then the the sexual arousal can respond to things like role-playing um novelty within the relationship. 00:17:52.799 --> 00:18:12.400 I don't know, can the woman to dress in a particular way, to have sex on a beach or something, or in a forest, or unusual experiences like that, different experiences, seem to some extent to overcome the decline in um desire that otherwise happens. 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:22.160 But uh I think you know, another thing to think about is in our early evolution, we were not around for very long. 00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:29.279 The kind of age you're talking about when sexual desire declines to the extent you're looking for someone else. 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:47.440 Well, that presumably has been tested in evolution, but there's not there wouldn't be that much scope to test it in evolution because A, we didn't live very long, B, there were not the temptations out there in early evolution that there are today. 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:57.519 So, you know, computer dating, um, online sex, um, pornography, all none of these things were around in our early evolution. 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:09.120 So what we're seeing today, I would guess, is a gross exaggeration of this mechanism of, as it's called, the Coolidge effect of the arousal by a novel partner. 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:17.840 Um but why in our early evolution it was it must have been still evident. 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:20.720 I don't believe it's evolved in recent years. 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:26.640 I think it uh you know, I don't think evolution has changed that much over hundreds of years. 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:37.759 So I imagine it was there in our early evolution too, even though there was not that much chance to exploit it in the sense of getting novelty in your relationship. 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:39.840 It is a big puzzle. 00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:49.200 Yeah, when evolution puts two things that are in opposition to each other, you think, well, how is this ever resolved in our early evolution? 00:19:49.600 --> 00:19:54.480 It's difficult, it's difficult, very difficult now to see how people manage to resolve this one. 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:55.120 Yeah. 00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:56.559 Very difficult. 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.960 Uh I think cheating is the answer that they find. 00:20:01.360 --> 00:20:01.680 Yeah. 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:15.920 And uh you know, like I uh recently did the the interview with the cack holding couple, and so for them, one would say it's cheating, but for them it's the consensual non-monogamy. 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:27.600 So they actually agreed both on this that the uh the wife she actually will have different partners, and the husband participates in this, yes. 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:33.680 So either he watches or he participates, physically participates in those sexual experiences. 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:43.279 And uh, you know, so they found this way of dealing with novelty or introducing novelty into the relationship, yes. 00:20:43.519 --> 00:21:12.080 Um, and in another lecture, I have heard that uh having a conversation about our sexual desires, about sexual pleasure, what we like, what we don't like, that's something that may also introduce an element of novelty because I think in relationships we do not speak often about sex and pleasure, we weren't taught that, and it's just often avoided topic. 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:20.000 So I think having those conversations can help also to find out what we like and be open

more of to experiment step by step. 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:42.640 But going back to the cackolding, uh to cackolding uh couple, there was a like I I was wondering how jealousy uh works in this case because when I spoke with the male partner uh with the husband, he said that it's a like a form of excitement. 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:55.519 He the jealousy turns into excitement, but in other people, exactly, but in other people, in other relationships, jealousy triggers anger, uh frustration. 00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:05.279 And I wonder why is that why jealousy can be interpreted in so different ways and impact us so differently? 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:09.279 Yes, it's a very interesting question you put there. 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:19.120 I think the answer comes down to um we when we consider the rope bridge experiment, are you familiar with the rope bridge Darton and Aaron? 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:34.960 That the these males walking across a rope bridge were frightened, but when they got to the other side and they met an attractive research assistant and answered questions there, their excitement was transformed into sexual desire. 00:22:35.360 --> 00:22:48.160 And I think what is happening in this situation you describe is again, it comes down to a much similar point we were talking about earlier, that what evolution has given you is a flexible system. 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:54.640 So there is this kind of general arousal, if you like, excitement arousal. 00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:07.039 Which can be negative or it can be positive, but the biological basis in terms of the autonomic nervous system is common in those various conditions. 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:18.240 And so it's so in the Rope Bridge experiment, the arousal accompanying fear on reaching safety was transformed into sexual desire. 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:26.080 So the arousal didn't drop to zero um uh when when they got to the other side. 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:30.559 Rather, it was still there, but it it got labeled differently. 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:33.279 It acquired a label of attraction. 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:51.440 I think that what uh evolution is doing is that it is um again when it comes to jealousy, it has given this um I guess for most people it's a negative emotion. 00:23:52.960 --> 00:24:09.200 But it can be transformed that all that arousal that would accompany a negative um experience, but it is possible with the cognitive control to transform it into a positive experience. 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:15.519 And what is positive about it is A, it's rerunning some of the images of porno. 00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:21.200 Um the guy is looking in, it's his own free porno show in his front room. 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:25.360 B, he sees it as giving a present to his wife. 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.000 Look, what a good, kind chap I am. 00:24:28.080 --> 00:24:31.600 You know, I'm giving you this present, I'm not showing jealousy. 00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:34.720 In fact, I'm organizing it for you in some cases. 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:37.519 Um, so I'm not showing jealousy, though. 00:24:37.840 --> 00:24:51.680 Um so I think that and and three, I suppose, what he's almost saying is, look, you don't have to wonder because I'm bringing you novelty in, I'm organizing your novelty for you. 00:24:51.840 --> 00:24:55.519 So he's in control of the situation to some degree. 00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:56.080 Yeah. 00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:06.240 And so, look, I brought you gifts, you know, I'm not bringing you gold and silver, but I'm bringing you a gift of another male into our bedroom. 00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:15.519 And the all that arousal then is attaches itself to these positive cognitions rather than the negative cognition. 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:23.039 Uh but I think there is still the flexibility for it to switch to the negative cognition. 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:23.519 Yeah. 00:25:23.840 --> 00:25:37.360 And um, I mean, if she were to go off with the man and spend a night in a hotel without him, all that emotion would attach itself to a negative label. 00:25:37.600 --> 00:25:37.759 Yeah. 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:38.640 Does it make sense? 00:25:39.200 --> 00:26:23.200 Yeah, it it does make sense, and I think it it uh again, I think it comes to having conversations on those different topics because I I feel like then his brain is ready that okay, this will happen, and in long term, I actually because I treat my wife well in this regard, and I bring her another partner, I allow her this, and I also have some pleasure in it because I can see it, I can watch it, and I keep, let's say, like this, uh I keep my wife for with me for much longer because I allow those other things. 00:26:23.360 --> 00:26:26.960 So it's like you know, the long-term goal versus short-term goal. 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:35.200 And I I guess here the cognitive uh action comes in also because then we're like, okay, we're thinking about this long-term goal. 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:45.680 And it's it's kind of interesting because now when I'm thinking about this, it's like kind of connecting the long-term goal goal with short-term, short-term goals. 00:26:45.840 --> 00:27:00.640 So, you know, I think in your book, if if I'm understanding it correctly, I read that um cheating is kind of you know the short-term goal, giving into this short-term goal and forgetting about the long-term, which is the relationship. 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:02.400 I'm simplifying really. 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.200 Yes, because you said it much better. 00:27:05.840 --> 00:27:07.360 I think you're right. 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.360 Well, I mean, it's the marshmallow effect. 00:27:11.600 --> 00:27:13.120 You're familiar with the marshmallow effect. 00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:14.000 No, please don't. 00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:25.680 Um well, the marshmallow effect is that uh you test children, do you want do you want to eat this one marshmallow now, or do you want to wait a few minutes and have two

marshmallows? 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:33.600 Now, they they tend to go for one marshmallow now when they're young, they get a bit older and they wait for two marshmallows. 00:27:33.840 --> 00:27:40.160 Now, many of our problems come down to the fact that we eat the one marshmallow now. 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:44.000 We we ignore the two marshmallows down there. 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:48.480 And that's true with climate change and the crisis of the environment. 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:56.559 We go for expensive cars now, we go for flights, we go for all this, and look, we can put it on the back burner. 00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:58.799 We don't need to worry too much about the future. 00:27:59.039 --> 00:27:59.279 Yeah. 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:10.400 That that is very evident in Britain at the moment with uh our finding a new prime minister because of ten candidates, nine of them say they want immediate tax cuts. 00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:13.519 Well, that's gonna be disastrous in the long term. 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:18.640 It's good in the short term, but in the long term it means you can't pay nurses properly and so on. 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:30.080 But they're appealing to the population with in in a short-term way, they're going for one marshmallow now, ignoring 20 or 50 marshmallows in a year's time, which they're not gonna get. 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:50.160 And I think with all this, um it's if you want your pleasure now, and um in a case of adultery on in infidelity, then if you go for that relationship now, you're taking your short-term pleasure at the cost of long-term suffering, potentially. 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:51.360 Won't always happen. 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:54.640 I mean, if you don't get caught, it might not suffer. 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.120 Yes. 00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:13.440 But um uh so often people do get caught, and so, but they're sacrificing the fact that the future might be bad is not carrying as much weight as the prospect of hedonism now, here and now at this point in time. 00:29:13.840 --> 00:29:14.160 Okay. 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:17.360 That outweighs the long-term prospects. 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:18.080 Gotcha. 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:19.039 Does it make sense? 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:20.880 That makes a lot of sense. 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:22.480 Yes, yes, exactly. 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:24.880 Yeah, that that's really, really cool. 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:37.360 Because I was thinking a lot about this when I read your book, and um I'm sure I will have to reread the book because it's so dense in knowledge, and and I mean it in a good way, yes. 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.840 I prefer to have a book dense in knowledge than not learn anything. 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:51.759 Um, but yeah, I'm sure I will have to reread this, and having this conversation helps me better to understand what was in the book. 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:59.759 And how, Fred, how do you think we select our romantic uh or sexual partners? 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.680 Does physical appearance really matter? 00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.680 Or is it maybe something that is less conscious? 00:30:07.840 --> 00:30:13.279 So, for example, the way how we were growing up, the environment that we were growing up in? 00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:33.279 Well, I think Freud said we tend to repeat with our romantic partners our upbringing, so how our mothers and I guess fathers treated us is rather how what we look for in a partner, that they will treat us much the same way. 00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:35.840 Now, there's I think there's a bit of evidence in favour of that. 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:38.799 I'm not sure how much evidence, I think there's some. 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:53.759 Um but what we look for in a partner, I think, is somewhat different between men and women, in the sense that men tend to put a great deal of weight on physical appearance. 00:30:54.480 --> 00:31:02.400 Women put some weight on it, it's not irrelevant, but they put less than the man does. 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:12.000 They put more weight on the behavior of the male, what he might promise, what he what his qualities are, his psychological qualities. 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:17.920 Uh I think it's an unconscious assessment of would this man make a good father? 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:27.519 And clearly, if you're ti if you're in the case of a woman, it pays to do that kind of assessment. 00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:35.759 Now, for the male, not much else matters apart from physical appearance. 00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:39.200 That's not entirely true because other things do matter. 00:31:39.600 --> 00:31:53.360 But I think the weight is put on physical appearance rather than the contextual thing of what does this physical appearance signify in terms of what kind of person is this? 00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:54.160 Mm-hmm. 00:31:54.799 --> 00:32:13.600 So you say sorry, just do so you're saying the physical appearance actually matters especially for men, but yes, I think it does, because the optimal age of attraction of a woman to a man is twenty-six years. 00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:21.279 So you might get an eighty-year-old who still finds a twenty-six-year-old particularly attractive. 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:28.799 But I don't think you get many 80-year-old women that still find a 26-year-old man attractive. 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:32.160 They're more likely to find a 60-year-old man attractive. 00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:42.799 So as age increases, then so the optimal desire of the woman is for a man that also increases in age. 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:49.600 Whereas for the man, the optimal woman stays around 26 years of age. 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:58.880 Um so which is that which is not only the optimal age of attraction, but it's also the optimal age for reproduction. 00:32:59.039 --> 00:32:59.440 Uh-huh. 00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:05.039 Reproduction success is optimal at around age twenty-six years, something like that. 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:10.319 So it all makes

good sense in terms of evolution. 00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:35.519 Having said that, of course, there's an important qualification to add to all this in that, as we've seen already in this discussion, evolution gives you certain suggestions as to way how to behave, but they're not absolutes, they're not laws cast in tablets of stone, they're suggestions as to how things go. 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:46.000 So, for example, um, you know, you there are many men, myself included, who marry someone already having a child. 00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.840 Now that doesn't increase my reproductive chances. 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:57.519 In fact, it decreases them, if anything, because you know you're more likely then to say we won't have any more children because we've already got one. 00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:04.160 So now there are limits to this, to the way evolution is predictive. 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:13.759 As uh the evolution can predict the optimal strategy in many ways, but then culture takes over and puts a fine tuning to it. 00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:31.039 And you know, I think the point is this that evolution doesn't tell us to make babies, evolution tells us to find sexual desire attractive, and that is a way of making babies. 00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:39.360 Okay, evolution if evolution selected us to make babies, then there would never be a contraceptive industry flourishing the way it is. 00:34:41.279 --> 00:34:41.679 Yes. 00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:46.960 So basically babies are the byproduct of uh yes, that's the way I would look at it. 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:50.239 Babies are the byproduct of sexual desire. 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:58.159 Now, again, as quali there's qualifications to add to this, because some people go set out to have sex in order to make babies. 00:34:58.319 --> 00:34:58.480 Yeah. 00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:07.359 But I think that's a recent cultural phenomenon because in our evolution, I guess it wasn't always known that sex produces babies. 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:17.439 And there are apparently some cultures, uh I'm told, I've read, where they still don't know there's a relationship between sexual desire, sex, and having babies. 00:35:17.759 --> 00:35:23.839 So but um they still don't know that knowledge, um, apparently. 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:32.319 So it has clearly given us the imperative to have sex with the incidental spin-off, if you like, of having babies. 00:35:32.799 --> 00:35:33.279 Spin-off. 00:35:33.359 --> 00:35:34.480 I like the spin-off. 00:35:35.759 --> 00:35:37.759 So spin-off, yes. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:53.439 So the so someone like me who acquires a child at a in my case age 50, um then we are looking to optimize our own personal survival and desire. 00:35:55.119 --> 00:36:05.119 And we are the the factor of evolutionary perpetuation is not so evident in in this kind of case, which is more and more you see now. 00:36:07.359 --> 00:36:31.519 Um you still see it though, in the sense that um men who acquire children through a marriage, they don't produce them biologically, but they acquire them, are much more likely to be abusive towards that child, even to kill that child, as compared to the biological father. 00:36:31.919 --> 00:36:35.279 So in some sense, that also points towards an evolutionary. 00:36:35.839 --> 00:36:39.199 But but but why yeah, okay. 00:36:39.599 --> 00:37:00.639 So you're saying because it's not evolutionary, it's not like looking to it from the evolutionary point of view, because it's not their baby, like they are there are more there is a chance that they will be more abusive toward this child because it's not their feel the same affection towards the child. 00:37:00.879 --> 00:37:07.279 I believe they're like more likely to be sexually abusive, I believe so, but they're more likely to murder the child. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.719 Okay and do you have in mind a specific example? 00:37:12.879 --> 00:37:18.960 Because I I know you also will wrote a book about serial killings and uh Yes, yes. 00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:19.359 Yes. 00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:23.119 So do you have some uh specific example in mind? 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:25.439 I can't. 00:37:25.839 --> 00:37:31.359 Um I it's Wilson and Daly who dis did this research. 00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:38.319 Um Martha Wilson and Richard Daly, I think, are the names. 00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:42.639 Um sadly she has died, but he's still alive. 00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:53.279 And they they're in Canada and they did this survey of statistical analysis on this, finding this phenomenon. 00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:18.399 Um now whether you can say that is in any sense evolutionarily derived, I think that's open to question because culturally there's likely more problems arise in them when you acquire a child at age ten, twelve, whatever, um it's gonna be more difficult for that child to accept. 00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:24.480 So in some sense, you're not really comparing like with like I would say. 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:41.039 And Fred, so what's the difference, if there is any difference, between sexual arousal and sexual desire when it comes to men and women? 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:55.919 I think that you'll find that in men desire fairly closely matches arousal. 00:38:57.839 --> 00:39:00.639 I think this is you'll find this is the case. 00:39:00.799 --> 00:39:06.639 Um whereas it's Meredith Chivers who's done so much research on this. 00:39:06.879 --> 00:39:18.559 Whereas a woman can show signs of sexual desire, even signs of genital arousal without feeling sexual desire. 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:37.599 Now the most extreme case of this is rape, where um where the woman may feel complete uh horror, fear, terror at what is happening, but still show signs of sexual arousal. 00:39:37.839 --> 00:39:55.919 I remember talking to Ellen Larne about this, sadly again, no longer with us, sadly, and she told me that sometimes in court cases evidence has been found that the woman was sexually aroused, and the males

use this as part of his defense. 00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:58.719 It couldn't have been rape, she was sexually aroused. 00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:08.559 Um now uh we know that that we know that that that there is not a one-to-one between desire and arousal. 00:40:08.799 --> 00:40:16.239 Um so there can be arousal without desire, there can be desire without arousal, but normally the two work in harmony together. 00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:31.279 Um, but I I again, you see, I think in the case of a male, uh sexual arousal can be indexed by the erection of the penis, which is a much more obvious thing than the sexual arousal of a female, which isn't so obvious. 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:36.159 Um you can't necessarily see it by looking in the same way that you can for the male. 00:40:37.279 --> 00:40:49.759 Um so I think the whole thing ties together in a kind of positive feedback effect that the arousal generates the penile erection, which feeds back to increase the arousal and so on and so on. 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:50.239 Okay. 00:40:50.399 --> 00:40:52.639 And then that locks on to desire. 00:40:53.359 --> 00:41:04.480 Um I don't know cases of males who show arousal without desire, except in the case of asexuals, they do. 00:41:05.439 --> 00:41:12.079 I don't think males that experience heterosexual desire do so divorced from arousal. 00:41:12.879 --> 00:41:32.480 Whereas women, my understanding is that they they they often feel the desire first at a kind of intellectual level, and then it relates to the bodily signs of arousal, or they're in a sexual context. 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:40.000 And that triggers arousal, even though it may not be a arous a a context of desire. 00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:45.519 What what do you mean exactly by it may not be the context of desire? 00:41:45.919 --> 00:41:51.599 Well, in the case of rape, for example, there's a there's zero, rather than negative desire in that situation. 00:41:51.839 --> 00:41:52.000 Yeah. 00:41:52.319 --> 00:42:00.879 And yet there are signs of of genital arousal in that situation, um, even though it's negative desire. 00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:11.199 Yet another example of the flexibility of the nervous system, that it doesn't give you the solution to a problem directly. 00:42:11.279 --> 00:42:14.480 You some sense work on it by experience. 00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:18.079 It gives you a kick start, but then you work on it by experience. 00:42:18.399 --> 00:42:31.519 Yes, and by learning, and I think you know, by discovering what you like, what you don't like, and then you tend to repeat this as a you know learning process that you oh that absolutely plays a part, yes, yes, surely. 00:42:31.759 --> 00:42:38.399 Yeah, and also learning everything that we see from what we acquire from media and everything that's around us. 00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:39.759 Oh, yes, surely. 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:57.759 And that's perhaps a good segue to pornography because uh you know, often this what we see on the screen, we tend

to, I at least I think so, yes, that we see it and it's like, oh, it's interesting, let's try to repeat it. 00:42:57.919 --> 00:43:11.439 Yes, and then depending on if it was like approved, let's say, by a person uh who was with us, they liked it, we made we tend to repeat it, or we abandon this. 00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:13.039 Uh we don't do it again. 00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:17.199 Yes, we abandon this uh this behavior. 00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:35.199 So um so going to pornography, um why what do you think some men who are happily in a relationship they um still turn to pornography for sexual arousal? 00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:38.719 Well, I think it's the I would say two things about that. 00:43:38.799 --> 00:43:43.279 The first is I think it's an example of the Coolidge effect, because it's novel. 00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:45.039 It's novel. 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:49.839 They the the the what they're looking at is some other woman um having sex. 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:50.879 It's novel. 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:56.480 The other thing I would say comes down to some ideas of a Dutch ethologist, Nico Tinbergen. 00:43:56.719 --> 00:43:58.399 I try to get the Dutch pronunciation. 00:43:58.639 --> 00:43:59.199 That was good. 00:43:59.279 --> 00:44:00.960 That was that was Tinbergen. 00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:03.439 I'll just say Pin Mountain. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:06.159 So many Dutch have mountains in their names. 00:44:06.799 --> 00:44:08.319 Where are these Dutch mountains? 00:44:08.399 --> 00:44:09.679 I've never seen one yet. 00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:13.519 Well, because they don't have it in the landscape, they put it in the cernem. 00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:15.279 That's the That's the answer, is it? 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:16.559 Okay, that's the answer. 00:44:16.879 --> 00:44:17.359 No, I don't know. 00:44:17.439 --> 00:44:18.879 I'm not like I I don't know. 00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:22.319 I've asked several Dutch this and they say it all is relative. 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:27.359 We have very, very gentle hills, and they are mountains when you live in the Netherlands. 00:44:27.439 --> 00:44:28.719 So I don't know. 00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:54.480 But what Tinbechen said was this phenomenon of supernormal stimulus that he he he looked at herring gulls and they're the the mother herring gulls sitting on eggs, and he gave the mother herring gull natural herringgull eggs, and he gave an enormous herringgull egg, far bigger than anything she would have produced, and she chose to sit on that. 00:44:55.359 --> 00:44:58.639 He called this phenomenon supernormal stimulus. 00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:04.079 Um it's something bigger than anything having encountered in evolution. 00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:16.559 So i it th th those eggs were never around in the herring gull's evolution, but in some sense the nervous system interprets them as particularly attractive. 00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:20.639 And I think something like this happens with pornography. 00:45:20.879 --> 00:45:35.519 It

certainly happens with food, so f sugary fatty foods readily available in varieties um were not around in our early evolution. 00:45:35.759 --> 00:45:36.000 Yeah. 00:45:36.399 --> 00:45:41.119 We had we had we get fruits, we got vegetables, we killed animals, whatever. 00:45:41.439 --> 00:45:50.399 But they were much low in calories than the diets available today, and there was not that much variety, and we had to put effort to get them. 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:54.239 You didn't just go to the supermarket and pip load up a trolley with them. 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:58.159 So I think they are equally supernormal stimuli. 00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:06.000 And I think that gambling represents a supernormal stimulus because it was not around in our early evolution. 00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:09.439 We didn't have casinos, we didn't have online betting. 00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:22.480 So these things like pornography overwhelm our brain, they bombard it with stimuli that are more potent than anything we've encountered in evolution. 00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:32.480 And hence you get massive release of dopamine, and that makes these activities potentially addictive for some people. 00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:33.519 Yeah. 00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:39.599 And so how when it comes to pornography addiction, is this a thing? 00:46:39.839 --> 00:46:43.279 And how do you define addiction? 00:46:43.919 --> 00:46:49.359 What I would say there there are probably as many definitions of addiction as there are people making the definition. 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:54.879 I would say I think I well, let's get clear what is not addiction. 00:46:55.119 --> 00:46:55.359 Okay. 00:46:55.759 --> 00:47:00.719 I would say it is not addictive to spend a lot of time having sex. 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:07.279 So you might have a one-to-one relationship, you've just met the person, you're having sex 24-7. 00:47:09.279 --> 00:47:11.119 I wouldn't say that's addictive. 00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:13.839 I wouldn't call that addictive. 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.799 Some people might, but I think that's a misuse of the word. 00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:17.679 Why not? 00:47:17.839 --> 00:47:19.759 Because it's not problematic. 00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:29.279 But some so so just jump to jump in, because some people say that they have sex addiction. 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:30.239 Yes. 00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:32.719 Um sorry about these noises. 00:47:32.879 --> 00:47:34.319 I keep getting messages popping up. 00:47:34.399 --> 00:47:35.359 I'm getting rid of them. 00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.079 You don't hear it because I'm using the earphones. 00:47:38.319 --> 00:47:38.639 That's why. 00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:39.599 That's good. 00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:40.399 I didn't hear it. 00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:50.639 Um so with sex addiction, like some people refer to having sex addiction to and I I don't know, because the this is the thing. 00:47:50.719 --> 00:48:07.039 I have recently listened to a podcast, and the woman was saying that

yes, she is a sex addict, yes, that she has occasional uh sex um or had occasional sex out of marriage, yes, so basically cheating. 00:48:08.799 --> 00:48:09.919 Is it addiction? 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:25.759 Or you think it's addiction because you she said that she was raised in a very Catholic family and in um the way how she was taught, and she believes that sex out of marriage is absolutely no goal, divorce is not possible. 00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:33.119 So, yeah, when she's cheating, she sees it as a negative thing, and it's a sex addiction. 00:48:33.279 --> 00:48:52.719 But then I was wondering if it's really sex addiction, or you just have an increased need for uh novelty, for having sex with different people, and your sexual desire is just let's say higher or different than um others, perhaps? 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:54.719 It's a very tricky one. 00:48:55.039 --> 00:49:00.079 And I think any definition you come up with is going to be problematic. 00:49:00.399 --> 00:49:00.719 Okay. 00:49:01.279 --> 00:49:08.639 And I think it partly depends on you answering the question, is this problematic for me? 00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:12.000 Would I rather not be doing this? 00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:15.039 Have I sought treatment for this? 00:49:15.439 --> 00:49:26.000 If you can say it's problematic, I'd rather not be doing it, I've sought treatment for it, none of this has made any difference, I still carry on, I can't stop. 00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:30.719 Um, then I think you can use the notion of addiction usefully. 00:49:31.439 --> 00:49:38.960 Um I think that if someone just commits adultery and says, Oh, I must be a sex addict, well, I would ask them the questions. 00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:40.719 Do you resist it? 00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:42.159 Do you fight it? 00:49:42.319 --> 00:49:44.000 Have you sought help for it? 00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:51.199 If they say, Oh, no, no, no, no, I you know I just do it, I quite like it, then I think I wouldn't call them addicted. 00:49:51.279 --> 00:49:55.359 I don't think it contributes anything more than just describing the phenomenon. 00:49:55.759 --> 00:50:16.960 Just as one would say, if you occasionally take drugs of one, I don't know, magic mushrooms, cannabis, even the hard drugs, cocaine, heroin, if you trip occasions a weekend with these things, you don't resist it, you don't fight it, you don't seek therapy for it, then the mere fact you're taking drugs doesn't make you an addict. 00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:17.519 Mm-hmm. 00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:17.919 Mm-hmm. 00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:20.319 Now the question comes down. 00:50:21.359 --> 00:50:22.480 Yes, exactly. 00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:35.199 This becomes problematic in the sense that I think these days, if you're a if you smoke 50 cigarettes a day and you try to quit, but you can't. 00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:41.119 In fact, many people try as many as 25 times before they they're able to quit. 00:50:41.759 --> 00:50:51.919 You seek help for it, you resist it, you don't want to do it, but you still do it, then that is an addiction. 00:50:53.439 --> 00:51:05.839 The problem comes about with the person smoking 25 cigarettes a day back in 1950, when no one realized there was a health scare about um cigarettes, cancer and all that. 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:07.679 They smoke 25 cigarettes a day. 00:51:07.759 --> 00:51:14.239 They say, Oh, yeah, I had a joy, it's great, you know, gives me confidence, helps me, you know, it's a sociable thing to do, etc. 00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:15.919 No, no, I don't want to stop. 00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:17.199 I can afford to buy. 00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:19.039 Is that person addicted? 00:51:19.359 --> 00:51:29.599 Now the 50-a-day person in 1950 and the 50-a-day person in 2022 are both smoking 50 cigarettes a day. 00:51:29.759 --> 00:51:31.679 Their behavior looks much the same. 00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:38.799 But only the 2022 person who's resisting it would be said to be addictive, addicted. 00:51:39.839 --> 00:51:42.000 Why not the 50 a day? 00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:45.759 Um, well, I've got a guy answered this to me recently. 00:51:45.919 --> 00:51:55.839 He said, Well, okay, but they are potentially addicted because their nervous system have made all the changes um that are commensurate with addiction. 00:51:57.279 --> 00:52:05.119 Even though he doesn't resist, even though he or she doesn't resist, um, they don't see it as a problem, they don't seek therapy for it. 00:52:05.279 --> 00:52:16.079 Um, the index is that their nervous system has changed in such a way, much the same as the 2022 50-a-day cigarette smoker. 00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:18.960 But they don't see it as an addiction, or they wouldn't. 00:52:19.359 --> 00:52:26.079 Well, well, they wouldn't see it as an addiction because I believe nobody did see it as addiction back in the 1950s. 00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:27.199 It was glamorous. 00:52:27.279 --> 00:52:30.319 You know, Hollywood stars posed with Marlborough. 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:32.719 I'm a real man, I smoke Marlboro. 00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:35.519 Attractive women there, you know. 00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:37.599 Well, look, look, I'm attractive, this woman. 00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:52.559 Yeah, it that's very actually um I when you were saying this, I was thinking actually about my dad because he he has trouble stopping to s with stopping to smoke to smoke. 00:52:52.719 --> 00:53:00.079 Like he he smokes a lot, he should stop because of his health, but uh he can't. 00:53:00.399 --> 00:53:03.919 He tried and he keeps going back to it. 00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:05.119 Keeps going back. 00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:06.639 Familiar story. 00:53:07.359 --> 00:53:08.000 Yes. 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:10.319 And and yes, there we go. 00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:18.639 No, what I see here is um the conscious mind in antagonistic with the unconscious mind. 00:53:18.879 --> 00:53:25.119 So the unconscious mind is largely generating a want, a pull towards nicotine. 00:53:25.359 --> 00:53:29.599

The conscious mind is saying no, it's the conflict. 00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:33.759 And I think the unconscious mind is winning in a situation like your father. 00:53:35.359 --> 00:53:39.599 What uh what do you think is a possible solution to it? 00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:46.799 Can you like tame your unconscious mind and well there are various chemical solutions to it, aren't they? 00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:50.000 Not sure how successful they are, but wearing nicotine patches. 00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:53.039 Oh no, not successful, not successful in his case. 00:53:53.279 --> 00:53:54.480 No, no, no. 00:53:54.960 --> 00:54:06.079 Um maybe try to block the reinforcing effect of it, maybe try an L-trexone, which blocks the opioids, but the problem is it blocks everything. 00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:14.960 So your father's your father might might find it difficult to get out of bed in the morning because he's no pleasures anymore in life. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:23.919 You need something to target that particular pleasure um uh without targeting any others. 00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:32.639 And there is there used to be techniques where whenever you light a cigarette, you're made to feel ill, rather as with alcohol abuse. 00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:42.159 It's like with a therapy that they make you that they um connect your sense, like you you feel bad about certain things that you do. 00:54:42.399 --> 00:54:45.199 Um how was the name of this therapy? 00:54:45.279 --> 00:54:45.919 I don't remember. 00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:48.559 Yes, thank you very much. 00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:50.639 That was the word that I was going for. 00:54:50.799 --> 00:54:51.599 Yeah, yeah. 00:54:51.919 --> 00:54:56.000 They sometimes try this with paedophiles, yes, for example. 00:54:56.239 --> 00:55:06.879 Um, they get them to masturbate to satiety on images of children and then it then even when the image becomes associatiated, they tell them to keep on. 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:13.359 It's I believe I've got this right to keep on masturbating until it becomes unattractive. 00:55:14.399 --> 00:55:18.399 There are various techniques like this for addictions. 00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:24.799 Um one and another technique is how can you strengthen the conscious control? 00:55:25.359 --> 00:55:31.439 Well, the conscious control seems to be rooted in the prefrontal cortex, the front part of the brain. 00:55:31.759 --> 00:55:42.159 And um when you are confronted with the cigarettes, um, you're they are uh pulling you, uh you're being urged to engage with them. 00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:47.679 What is stopping you is, well, oh my god, you know, I could die of cancer. 00:55:47.839 --> 00:55:50.399 My wife's told me she doesn't like my breath. 00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:58.319 Um, all sorts of they're they're the negative things, but they're not physically present at the time you're pulling the cigarette. 00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:02.879 The cancer might happen ten years down the line, it hasn't happened yet. 00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:08.879 Then it's trading off immediate pleasure against delayed phenomena. 00:56:10.159 --> 00:56:15.119 You know, the negative is not carrying enough weight to inhibit the well, we said before. 00:56:15.359 --> 00:56:17.359 Yes, exactly, exactly. 00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:20.960 And is this the same with pornography addiction? 00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:29.359 Because I I have read and heard uh opinions that there is no such a thing as pornography addiction. 00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:35.759 And when we talked some time ago, you said that definitely there is such a thing as pornography addiction. 00:56:35.919 --> 00:56:41.599 And so, how would we would define in this case uh this type of addiction? 00:56:41.759 --> 00:56:46.480 How because there is no there are I think there are no withdrawal syndromes. 00:56:47.359 --> 00:56:54.639 There are there are they're not as evident as they are in something like heroin or alcohol. 00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:58.000 In alcohol, they can be lethal if you're not careful. 00:56:58.319 --> 00:57:08.480 There's nothing like that, but there's a depressed mood, uh, anxiety, irritation, things like this tend to increase in frequency after you stop. 00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:15.039 Um see, not all drugs have a massive withdrawal effect evident in the body, cocaine doesn't. 00:57:15.279 --> 00:57:20.879 Alcohol and heroin are the classic examples of something that has signs in the body. 00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:25.279 Uh shivering um is one, goosebumps. 00:57:25.759 --> 00:57:35.599 Um there's there's a variety of different uh bad effects from stopping hard drugs like alcohol and um heroin. 00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:38.799 But there's not with cocaine to anything like the same. 00:57:38.879 --> 00:57:45.279 There's a depressed mood, but you get that with um with stopping sex or pornography. 00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:50.159 It's not as strong, it's not ever present, but it can be there, absolutely. 00:57:50.879 --> 00:58:20.879 So I would say that if you t if you take the classic case of addiction, which is heroin, and you tick boxes as to what the qualities of this addiction are, that you get short-term gain, you suffer long-term consequences, it affects your life socially, professionally, uh, whatever, uh, you get withdrawal symptoms when you stop, you escalate, you need a bigger dose to have the same effect. 00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:30.399 If you look at those boxes that apply to heroin addiction, pornography and sex tick many of those, if not all of them, in some cases. 00:58:30.799 --> 00:58:38.079 So for that reason, I have no shadow of doubt that to call sex and pornography potentially addictive. 00:58:39.839 --> 00:58:48.960 And so for ex I I have an example uh because uh that's something this came up uh in a conversation. 00:58:49.119 --> 00:59:28.960 I I don't know personally this person, so I I I probably cannot give you a great amount of details, but basically uh the guy he he says he was addicted to

pornography when he was a teenager and yeah, in his younger years, and uh now he is in in a relationship, loving relationship, and he's committed to his girlfriend, he he he really is in love with her, and uh but he has a problem with sexual arousal and erection. 00:59:29.359 --> 00:59:40.480 And I uh the person with whom I spoke was wondering if this can be related to Madonna Hoore complex that you described in the company. 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:41.199 Possibly. 00:59:41.759 --> 00:59:42.319 Possibly. 00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:54.079 Yeah, and I would like to know in what way and why, and if what other um issues may be at play in this uh situation. 00:59:54.639 --> 01:00:02.000 I think the issue at play in the for a start, this is controversial, this whole idea of porn-induced erectile dysfunction. 01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:03.439 Some people don't believe it. 01:00:03.759 --> 01:00:08.879 David Lee is the textbook case of someone who doesn't believe it, but I think he's got it completely wrong. 01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:13.439 I I far put more weight on the evidence saying it does exist. 01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:17.519 It doesn't exist for everyone that watches porn, even extensively. 01:00:17.839 --> 01:00:21.759 But um I think you said he started in his teenage years, did you? 01:00:23.119 --> 01:00:25.839 That's the most vulnerable period to addiction. 01:00:26.319 --> 01:00:34.079 That's when the brain is most sensitive to acquire incentives that become addictive at that age in the teenage years. 01:00:34.399 --> 01:00:59.119 What I think can be happening is that what they see on pornography, um the partner doesn't match it because they see all sorts of extreme acts in pornography, um and they see the the woman being ever ready, ever receptive, will do anything they want. 01:00:59.359 --> 01:01:08.159 She he's in charge, she does whatever they want, oral, anal, whatever, then you can see it in pornography. 01:01:08.399 --> 01:01:15.119 And then they come to a regular woman who's who said, Well, I'm not sure about this, you know, I don't really like this very much. 01:01:15.759 --> 01:01:27.439 And he and the contrast effect between the two means that she's I think it's a bit like a heroin addict being offered cannabis um or nicotine. 01:01:27.679 --> 01:01:30.000 I said, Oh god, I don't really like that very much. 01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:32.159 You know, it's just it's just not what I'm used to. 01:01:32.399 --> 01:01:32.719 Yeah. 01:01:32.879 --> 01:01:34.960 I think it's a contrast effect. 01:01:35.439 --> 01:01:37.279 And I do believe it does exist. 01:01:37.359 --> 01:01:40.159 Well, you you've given a very good example just now. 01:01:40.319 --> 01:01:45.519 There's any number of Gary Wilson has got produced any number in his book Your Brain on Porn. 01:01:46.239 --> 01:01:54.559 Um I just got something from his widow this morning um on this subject of about uh erectile dysfunction. 01:01:54.799 --> 01:02:01.759 Um so I think that I think that's

the that is the explanation for it. 01:02:01.919 --> 01:02:09.839 Um you see the old pawn was never have the it is again, it's Tinbergen's um supernormal stimuli. 01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:20.159 It presents supernormal stimuli that saturate the system, and anything less than that is inadequate to produce the same arousal. 01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:22.879 I believe that's the way of looking at it. 01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:24.000 Yeah, yeah. 01:02:24.319 --> 01:02:42.799 And what do you think is uh a solu or if uh what would you recommend this young man to do to kind of um well enjoy his romantic relationship and perhaps be sexually aroused within that relationship? 01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:49.759 If he can, I think the general advice in that situation is to abstain from looking at porn. 01:02:50.239 --> 01:03:02.960 If you stay away from it for a month or two or three, then that seems to there there is experience showing that that can be very helpful to overcoming this effect. 01:03:03.279 --> 01:03:06.879 But you've got to seriously stay away from it, not just having an occasional look. 01:03:07.279 --> 01:03:11.039 You've got to be really honest with yourself and cut yourself off from it. 01:03:11.279 --> 01:03:16.319 The other side of it is um well, watch it with the girlfriend. 01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:17.759 Yeah. 01:03:18.159 --> 01:03:19.759 That would be the answer, I would say. 01:03:19.919 --> 01:03:25.279 Watch it with the girlfriend and maybe have sex watching it while you're watching it. 01:03:25.759 --> 01:03:31.439 And I guess talking about what what they enjoy in the specific video or they just want to do it. 01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:33.199 Exactly. 01:03:33.439 --> 01:03:37.919 She could say what she finds acceptable and what she finds unacceptable. 01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:38.719 Yeah. 01:03:38.960 --> 01:03:44.960 Um, because some men tend to try to s subtle or not so subtle ways to bully their partners. 01:03:45.279 --> 01:03:47.839 Say, look, you know, this is what real women do. 01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:53.039 Um, you know, they have to accept that that real women, no, those they're not the real women. 01:03:53.279 --> 01:03:54.559 Yeah, exactly. 01:03:55.199 --> 01:04:03.359 They're not the real, the real, real women, um don't always want to do everything that's shown in the porn movie. 01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:05.919 Um very often they don't. 01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:06.480 Yeah. 01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:10.639 Maybe it takes time, maybe maybe you should give it give it a bit of time. 01:04:10.879 --> 01:04:27.279 But that I mean, look, I'm not a therapist, so I'm a bit hesitant to give advice, but uh from what I've read, then I would definitely ask him to stop looking at the porn uh because if he looks, he might get withdrawal symptoms, of course, but they'll pass in time. 01:04:27.439 --> 01:04:29.279 In a couple of months, they'll pass. 01:04:29.839 --> 01:04:38.639 Um try to devalue the porn, revalue the partner, get her involved in it as well. 01:04:38.799 --> 01:04:46.399 Don't do it surreptitiously behind her back, but after your two months or so, then mention to her the prospect of looking at this together. 01:04:46.799 --> 01:04:51.839 Maybe start very gently looking at it together and see what fires her. 01:04:52.239 --> 01:05:09.679 And I I think you mentioned a very important thing that uh often in the pornographic films women are uh all this sexual pleasure is just there, and women are always ready and to receive and to enjoy it, and everything happens super quickly. 01:05:09.759 --> 01:05:10.480 Yes, very quickly. 01:05:12.879 --> 01:05:13.119 Yeah. 01:05:13.359 --> 01:05:24.879 Uh the the the the build the plumber comes in to repair the uh broken pipes in the house, and she's already standing there with a mini skirt on, and she just happens to be in a mini skirt and stockings and all that. 01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:29.839 The plumber comes in, and sure enough, within a minute or so they're at it. 01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.879 Um, well, generally speaking, life is not like that. 01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:34.799 It is sometimes, but not always. 01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:36.159 It's not usually not like that. 01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:37.679 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 01:05:37.839 --> 01:05:51.199 Um even if you try, even if you try, it's just not I think it's uh un very unrealistic to expect someone to be ready to have sex with another person 24 hours a day and non-stop. 01:05:51.279 --> 01:06:04.239 And you know, it's like well, let's think about the lubrication, excitement, the direction, like like you know, yes, there is a period when we need some time off from that to absolutely get again sexually excited. 01:06:04.319 --> 01:06:05.519 It's like you know, the mountains. 01:06:06.799 --> 01:06:08.719 Yes, yes, yes. 01:06:10.079 --> 01:06:15.759 And uh I mentioned that the Madonna Horror Complex, can you explain it a little bit? 01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:19.039 Well, I can only describe it, I can't explain it. 01:06:19.119 --> 01:06:43.119 But someone who is uh someone who's grown grown up with a puritanical view that their culture has been one of where where women are pure, um then they look for that in a woman, but nonetheless have these same feelings and urges to engage um with other women who do more things than the uh Madonna will. 01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:54.879 So there's a scene in I think it's Analyze This where the gangster is using prostitutes for. 01:06:55.439 --> 01:07:02.159 Oral sex and someone says, Well, you've got an attractive wife, why not ask her? 01:07:02.960 --> 01:07:03.279 Her? 01:07:04.319 --> 01:07:09.039 My wife who kisses my baby boy goodnight at night, using her for this. 01:07:09.199 --> 01:07:09.839 No way. 01:07:10.079 --> 01:07:11.599 And I think that's a good example. 01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:14.399 It captures the double standard. 01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:20.399 Perfectly all right to do it with a woman with a sex worker. 01:07:20.480 --> 01:07:27.039 But my

wife, oh my god, I wouldn't ask her for oral sex because those are the lips that kiss my baby boy goodnight at night. 01:07:27.199 --> 01:07:30.319 So it's something like that that is happening. 01:07:31.519 --> 01:07:52.559 Yeah, it's it's very interesting because also note that you know, in a lot of loving relationships, partner won't have any problems uh uh to do all those things with the partners won't have any problems to do all the other things with each other, you know, all sorts of things, you know. 01:07:52.799 --> 01:08:58.880 So yeah, it's very, very interesting, and I think it's so much wired in uh culture, in our uh how we were raised and what uh things were like what what we were taught and how we were taught to think about certain element of our elements of our society, and um so when uh the obviously when it comes to sexual uh arousal and desire, we as we just probably mentioned it, uh we enjoy a lot of different things, and so some people uh are more aroused, let's say, by something called vanilla sex, and some other people will go to more extremes, so um they will be aroused by different objects or by pain or humiliation, and it's like I uh and and sometimes it's very extreme, like like it's not like pinch on the skin or something like this, but it it's a lot. 01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:03.680 Um and I think why why is that? 01:09:03.840 --> 01:09:16.239 Why do we seek this extreme pleasure and because it connects with so much pain and at least when I look at it, yes. 01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:21.039 Uh I I I it feels painful to me. 01:09:22.239 --> 01:09:26.479 I'm actually very even scared of doing something like this. 01:09:27.199 --> 01:09:27.599 Me too. 01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:28.479 Me too. 01:09:28.960 --> 01:09:30.479 And so why is that? 01:09:30.639 --> 01:09:35.599 And maybe that's again that uh the the breach effect we were talking about. 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:36.479 Yes, it is. 01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:39.039 I was just thinking the same thing as you've just said. 01:09:39.199 --> 01:09:40.880 I think the rope bridge phenomenon. 01:09:41.519 --> 01:09:56.319 Yes, I think it's that, and I think what is happening is of course that um pain and tissue damage can release opioids as a kind of coping mechanism. 01:09:56.559 --> 01:10:00.559 I wish they'd release a few of them get me to this help this finger to heal. 01:10:00.639 --> 01:10:02.800 Um don't seem to be releasing many now. 01:10:03.279 --> 01:10:06.319 I think you should like break it more, maybe but then you die. 01:10:06.960 --> 01:10:08.079 Yeah, that would do it. 01:10:08.319 --> 01:10:10.960 I think it's a learning effect as well. 01:10:11.359 --> 01:10:27.760 I mean, you know, you have these opioids, and if it so happens that at the time you feel a sexual arousal for whatever bizarre reason, it can lock into a kind of an association between pain and sexual arousal. 01:10:28.000 --> 01:10:30.559 It really just has to be something like that. 01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:36.399 For those who don't ever experience or want to experience, it seems bizarre beyond all measure. 01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:44.720 But clearly some people do um find pain an aphrodisiac. 01:10:46.079 --> 01:11:06.000 And you know, I because we earlier mentioned psychedelics, and I uh uh recently I have heard that if you um use smaller dose of psychedelics, your conscious mind may still take control over it, and so your experience won't be as effective, let's say. 01:11:06.239 --> 01:11:15.199 Um, but if you put uh high you you take higher dose, then you just let go of this conscious uh thinking. 01:11:15.439 --> 01:11:32.000 Same, I think, like not thinking now, that maybe with this extreme uh like pain experiences, humiliation, when it when we take it to extreme, it's like bringing this higher dose uh uh like with psychedelics. 01:11:32.239 --> 01:11:45.439 Yes, uh, and then we are let able to let go of this conscious thinking what holds our brain, and then we just let go and we let into this perfectly possible, yes, yes. 01:11:45.679 --> 01:11:49.279 I know, just yeah, yes, it's perfectly possible. 01:11:50.559 --> 01:12:15.039 And Fred, now like uh often I can hear in uh I mean like on in see on the internet or hear uh some podcasts about gender, and it's a very hot topic right now, and uh it's something I a little bit struggle with still because in a way that uh I was raised knowing that there are two genders, male and female. 01:12:15.519 --> 01:12:36.159 But often now I hear that gender is a social construct, that it's it's fluid, and it's like we no longer see association between uh our genitals, the genitals that we have, and the gender that we perceive or how we feel. 01:12:36.319 --> 01:12:38.559 And what what's your thought on it? 01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:42.079 Do you think gender can be a social construct? 01:12:43.279 --> 01:12:50.000 Well, certainly in large part it can be, but I think you said you were raised that there are two genders. 01:12:50.239 --> 01:12:53.439 Yes, I wasn't what I was raised there are two sexes. 01:12:54.800 --> 01:12:57.679 Yes, yes, of course, in the day in my early days. 01:12:57.760 --> 01:13:01.199 I never came across gender until I was an adult. 01:13:01.359 --> 01:13:04.399 I don't think my parents would have ever heard of the word gender. 01:13:04.639 --> 01:13:06.720 They might have, I don't know, I doubt it. 01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:13.359 So I think the way things are going, I would say without any shadow of doubt that sex is biologically determined. 01:13:13.920 --> 01:13:19.039 I don't I think to call sex a gender a social construction is nonsensical. 01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:29.119 What I think is that could well be large part socially constructed is gender, which itself depends upon biological sex, but it's not a one-to-one link. 01:13:29.599 --> 01:13:34.960 So you could be a biological male and yet have feelings of being a female. 01:13:35.599 --> 01:13:46.000 Now that doesn't make you

biologically a female, it makes you a biological male still, but with a gender orientation towards being female. 01:13:46.559 --> 01:13:48.319 That's the distinction I'd want to work on. 01:13:48.399 --> 01:13:57.920 I think otherwise it's completely unscientific and it's intellectually fraudulent to say that sex is a social construction. 01:13:58.079 --> 01:13:59.760 I think it gets us nowhere. 01:14:00.800 --> 01:14:04.639 Um so and I and can't spend long now. 01:14:04.720 --> 01:14:06.000 I'm running out of time. 01:14:06.079 --> 01:14:06.880 I'm sorry to say. 01:14:09.519 --> 01:14:10.079 Yes, I do. 01:14:10.319 --> 01:14:10.800 Yes, I do. 01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:19.279 Um so uh it's a little bit funny one, but I hope uh you don't mind. 01:14:19.439 --> 01:14:26.880 Um so men like to send a lot of dick pics, and I keep hearing that a lot from women on social media, etc. 01:14:27.439 --> 01:14:29.519 And uh why is that? 01:14:29.679 --> 01:14:32.720 Why men like to like show off their genitals? 01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:38.960 I rarely hear of women sending vulva pictures, so why men like to do that? 01:14:39.679 --> 01:14:57.760 Well, it can't I think it comes back to the very same thing we talked about throughout, and that is that the male is a more visual creature, he's a more proactive creature, he's a more sexually I can say driven, but I don't like the word drive. 01:14:57.920 --> 01:15:13.679 Um he's sexually more the explorer, the adventurer, the instigator, and I think maybe he thinks if he were to receive a picture of female genitalia, he would be fired by that. 01:15:14.079 --> 01:15:15.679 So surely it's reciprocal. 01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:18.960 They must be fired by an image of my erect penis. 01:15:19.199 --> 01:15:25.279 Now the fact that I've never heard a female say she was actually aroused by a picture of an erect penis. 01:15:25.359 --> 01:15:26.960 I've never heard one single one. 01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:30.319 I've heard them say I find it a big joke that I have heard. 01:15:30.479 --> 01:15:33.359 And I don't think that's the reaction that the male wanted. 01:15:34.399 --> 01:15:36.399 He wanted her to be sexually turned on. 01:15:36.479 --> 01:15:38.559 It's advertising his sexuality. 01:15:38.800 --> 01:15:51.039 And again, I think it arises from the fact that he cannot accept or believe that a female would not be turned on by it simply because he would be turned on by the side of her genitalia. 01:15:51.840 --> 01:15:55.199 Um you know, I think I think that's the explanation. 01:15:55.519 --> 01:15:57.599 Yeah, yeah, makes sense to me. 01:15:57.840 --> 01:15:58.880 Makes sense to me for that. 01:15:59.279 --> 01:16:02.159 I can't I can't think we could say much more about it than that. 01:16:02.479 --> 01:16:02.720 Yeah. 01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:03.439 Well that well. 01:16:05.920 --> 01:16:10.880 It exemplifies the difference in approaches to sexuality between men and women. 01:16:11.760 --> 01:16:20.000 I another way I would look at it is you I I used to ask this of my tea group in Amsterdam when I was lecturing a hundred or so students. 01:16:20.239 --> 01:16:34.479 I would say in Britain, and probably here in Holland too, men are regularly arrested for stealing underwear off clothes lines, women's underwear off clothes lines, gathering a collection of underwear. 01:16:35.519 --> 01:16:43.359 Even here in liberated progressive Amsterdam, have you ever heard of a woman being arrested for stealing men's underwear? 01:16:43.679 --> 01:16:44.639 Absolutely not. 01:16:44.960 --> 01:16:45.760 Absolutely not. 01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:46.639 Why not? 01:16:46.960 --> 01:16:48.399 If we're all equal, why not? 01:16:48.479 --> 01:16:49.760 Why aren't they arrested? 01:16:50.000 --> 01:16:51.679 The point is we're not all equal. 01:16:51.840 --> 01:17:01.599 The male is more turned on by the the physical attributes of the female and those things associated with her physical attributes, which include her underwear. 01:17:02.479 --> 01:17:07.359 And that's something that remains really close to her body and absolutely. 01:17:07.519 --> 01:17:07.840 Yeah. 01:17:08.239 --> 01:17:09.359 Absolutely. 01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:14.800 Some males even break into women's homes to steal their underwear. 01:17:17.279 --> 01:17:22.559 Yeah, I I have read this somewhere either uh some probably somewhere on your Facebook. 01:17:22.720 --> 01:17:24.319 I did read that specific feature. 01:17:24.559 --> 01:17:26.239 Could be, could be, yes. 01:17:26.559 --> 01:17:27.119 Yeah. 01:17:27.439 --> 01:17:31.920 Fred, thank you so much for for talking to me. 01:17:32.079 --> 01:17:33.599 That was super fascinating. 01:17:33.760 --> 01:17:35.119 I truly enjoyed it.