Cal Logan Returns: Shadow Vein, Book Two Politics, and Real Yokai Folklore의 전체 녹취록

the first the first one a lot of people describe as almost a monster of the week vibe 'cause they're just, you know, on the road so much and and hunting down these various demons before like the before the main plot really congeals. It's kinda like They're on the main story and you don't really realize it until you're about a third way into the book and you're like, Okay, this was all going somewhere. so I wanted I you know, I I felt like it wasn't appropriate to do that again just given where the characters are now, 'cause they're in a different situation now than they are at the beginning of the book one, of course. So it it felt like what was right for the story and then, you know, on the like author side, I like, Yeah, like I'm I'm up for this. Like I can still tell a really engaging story without having an action scene every, you know, like three chapters. so you know, like I I took a gamble and and people seem to like w you know, what I did, so I'm you know, I'm glad it worked out. Devin: Yeah, that that's awesome. I I like when people break the mold. I guess is probably the best way to put it. Where, you know, I feel like book twos can hit a very interesting like slump period, like you hear about like what do they call it, the sophomore slump or whatever. But I found in my experience when authors are willing to break out of like kind of the expectation and don't try to just recreate. Book one as book two to kind of like just prolong the path, it makes a huge difference. But what I was sold on your book the second I saw the cover. Like, you know, I think I reached out to you and I was like, How do I buy a hardcover directly from you? I was like, so that I'm not, you know, paying pesos. And so I ended up With the first one just based off the cover, and then we can jump into it a little bit with SPFBO, but it was originally in my group. And I was like, Yes, because this has been on my TBR and I wanted to read it. And you know, shit just gets shifted with content and everything else. So I was like, This is the perfect like storm. And then Abel was like, We have conflicts. And I'm like, No, I'm like, I'm like, everybody knows everybody, it's not a conflict. I was like, it's fine. But then the book two cover, really caught my attention and I was like, holy shit. And then you were kind enough to send me both. And then I think you forgot that I had the first one. So we're gonna do a giveaway of the other one. So pro tip for anybody watching, leave a comment and I'll send you Cal's book, the first one. but I wanted to ask all that preamble and fucking praise to get to when you sat down to do the covers and you found your cover artist and everything like that. how did you go about the process of like going from I don't know if you have an artistic background or not, but like going from the idea to like what's on the cover, because this is my new favorite question after this has been answered by a few people in different ways. So Cal: the short answer is that my cover artist is awesome and he saved me from my dumbass idea. Pete: Yeah. Cal: So so what what you have there is not at all what was in my head. so I found him on ninety nine designs and I I did a like a a cover con you know contest to see a bunch of different designs and they just they just weren't good. and I don't even think it's honestly on the various artists that submitted. It's because I I gave entirely too much information, which doesn't give them a streamlined vision to work off of. And so then I was like, All right, I'm gonna browse some portfolios. I found this one guy Andre Bot who had incredible art. So I messaged him and he's like, Tell me about your work and he really took the time to get to to to know what I was looking for. And then and my idea originally, if so it's Pete you read the first book. You remember when they turn up at the ruins and you see like the giant, giant statue of Sutoku Tano, right? And it's and it's it's basically a a massive wooden idol of the main villain, and it's like a a point of worship. And so I wa I my original idea for the cover was to have that. And he's like, This is some striking imagery. He's like, but the point of the cover is to signify your genre and to get people to stop scrolling. He's like, I don't think this would do that. He's like, it feels like the s like the soul of your book revolves on these two characters and their ability to kill demons. He's like and that's enough to intrigue people for all for e with everything for everything else. So he's like, I have an idea. He's like, if you if you want to let me run with it little bit, he's like, I think you'll like it. And I'm like, go for it, man. Like you know, you're the pro, I'll take my hands off this. And they turned in like a rough sketch of what you of what you see and I was I was floored and I like, Okay, like take my money, like let's Devin: Yeah. Cal: like let's go. Devin: I love that. Yeah, it's it's crazy. Like it's I I call it I mean I definitely didn't coin this probably, but like shelf stopper. Like I need to walk by it and go, wait a minute. Like I gotta grab this off the shelf and see what that is. And your cover a hundred percent does that. Like I we didn't interact all that much, but like I saw your cover and I was like, I gotta fucking buy this book. I was like, this looks so dope. and if you can't tell, I do that a lot. so I I just love stressing how important covers are, but like I think you nailed it where it's kind of let the artist do their thing, you know, like that's that's what they do. we had Jesse Aragon on last episode, and she was talking about how like she drew stick figures to just kind of like get the idea out there, and like she's like, That was it. The rest of it was all the artists, obviously. and I appreciate it because like Very rare that you can see my tattoos, but all of my tattoos are like, hey, this is kind of the idea. And then I'm just like, you're the fucking professional, so

do your thing. and I just think it's it's such a smart move. And I'm so glad it worked out. And the cover for book two was somehow even more sick. Cal: Thank you. I Devin: You d definitely can. Cal: this like tiny stupid part of my head was like, is he gonna be able to match this? And then same thing, like he showed me, you know, a draft and I started I was like I started fucking giggling. I was like my god, like this is awesome. And and Devin: that's so good. Cal: Yeah. and the one thing I'll take credit for on that is the color scheme. It originally was pretty similar to the first book and I like, No man, look let's go, let's go like green and yellow, we'll do like the demonic fire And then and I and that'll also I think set up nicely the color scheme for for book three without you know without saying too much. But yeah, like you know, I trusted him before and at this point I'm I'm like man like this like Devin: Yeah. Pete: Yeah. No, that was a good call. Cal: like just just take my money and do another one dude. Pete: Yeah. Definitely a good call to pivot cover not covers colours. 'Cause you don't want to Devin: Hmm. Pete: be too similar to the book one but have the same artistic talent creating it but you know, with a different vibe. One and two look real sick together. And, you know, even just to like further harp on it for Devin: Yeah. Pete: another second. I think like when when I we spoke the first time, I got book one for Christmas because I just give my parents a li with two kids now, I don't get anything for myself. It's like Devin: No. Cal: Yeah. Pete: I I'll take Amazon gift cards and here's a list of ten books. Pick whatever ones you want. And I remember my mom actually seeing it and being like, I just really like the cover for this one because I was like, What made you get this? There's like other ones in there and I was like, I really wanted this book, but like What happened to the other like, you know, you didn't get all of What made this one? And she was like, Real cool cover. It looked really good and I was like, All right, if you're getting like a sixty year old n New Yorker to your cover, like for Cal: That that's high pays, man. Did my my mom is is like scared of the cover. She like Pete: Yeah. Devin: Ha ha. Cal: she like she it's funny 'cause I feel bad because she like really wanted to like she's very supportive of of what I do and and she's and she was so looking forward to reading my first book and I'm like, Mom, like respectfully, like this ain't your thing. Like just Pete: Yeah. Cal: like you're you're going to feel a deep sadness inside if if you realize Pete: Okay. Cal: that your stunt wrote this. She's like a sweet old Latina lady. She'll be like, What did I do wrong? Like Pete: Okay. Cal: So I'm like you know, like you can read one of my later books, but like this one is just just not your thing and and she's like Yeah. Pete: Yeah, we'll p we'll sit this one out. But it was it's very interesting that your cover designer picked up on what he felt was the heart of the series. because Jin and Shura are demon hunters, which, yes, super dope and they're really good at it. They each have their own power based on the like the bloodline and everything, but their relationship to each other is really what drives the the story. and again without go Going into big spoilers from book one. Book two starts, and both of them are really at two opposite ends of the spectrum. You know, one is gone through they both gone through some shit. One's wallowing in it, heavily, and the other maybe more emotionally wallowing in it, but physically doing okay. But with their relationship being such a driving factor in the plot and story, and you know, again, book one was so well received. made you want to kind of pick up book two and you know they're not together for a decent amount of this and a lot I feel like their relationship was one of the most fun aspects while I was reading book one. So again huge ballsy move to take something that worked so well and be like, we're breaking it up. But when you were outlining book two, was that something you knew you wanted to do or are you kind of I'm just gonna start typing and whatever happens happens. Cal: No, I definitely knew I wanted to separate them a little bit. you know, the the the series is called A Schism of Souls, right? And it this it is fundamentally about how they grow apart and turn down different paths. and so this is if you remember in book one, there's like a small arc where they end up apart and shit goes real bad. And so I wanted that to be a little like Appetizer of like, this is what happens when they're not when they're not together, like how how quickly things can go wrong. And so book two like, all right, well, what if we do that for most of the book now? you know, what if we put them you know, still on like the same side but with very different opposing ideals and at the point where maybe they are not willing to go into battle alongside each other anymore. so that so I I really wanted to to explore that. And again, like trying to avoid spoilers, but They're at the point where they kind of need to to field their own teams, so to speak. And book two is is where you see that happening, where they they deepen their connections with other characters out you know, outside of them too, to see like, okay, like you know, what do you do when you don't have your strongest support system? What do you do when the person who you walked beside your entire life is is not there to check your your worst impulses or or support you? And And so that you know you you see them grow or regress and gravitate towards other characters and kind of like test their ideals without against the world without their their inherent check and balance system that they've had their whole life. So I I very much wanted to do that. And I plan on you know keeping that going in into into book three of seeing how they manage on their own before. Of course,

they will reunite at a certain point. And the question will be, you know, like have they changed past the point of reconciliation? You know, what's like what what happens when they've really begun to forge their own paths and th and then their paths cross again? Devin: Not that I I I'm such a fan of huge deep character work and I I love the idea of like, you know, I don't want to say they're a crutch for each other, and I don't even know as an author if it feels that way sometimes, but Cal: They are. Devin: but then forcing them to be apart and like kind of coming to their own. It's an interesting dynamic of like Pete and I have talked about this before where it's funny how you go through like phases of life where somebody like will be your person and it might be for a month, it might be for years, however. And then all of a sudden, you know, life happens and things happen that force you apart and whatever. And then you'll just one day you're thinking about and you're like, is that guy even alive? Like somebody that you've probably considered like a best friend. So it'll be really interesting to see how that plays out. I'm sure you have it planned out in your head at least to an extent. But I'm gonna steal Pete's favorite question here. since I wasn't part of the first episode. So I get to ask it, which probably got asked in the first one, but we can do it again. do you are you like a big outline person or do you kind of just you hit the keyboard and the the characters do the writing for you, if that makes sense? Cal: It's a mix of both. There's some stuff that I definitely discovery right and there are some things that I I plot out well in advance. a lot of like the the really like deep or pivotal character moments tend to come off the cuff 'cause I'm just in a flow and then and it just it just hits. And then a lot of the bigger plot mechanics, or you know, those will or some of the major points of conflict I tend to plan out and then I try to I you know And then I try to breadcrumb it and have the characters making decisions that lead to this ultimate point of conflict. so it it kinda d it it depends, but you know, I try not to plant my flag too firmly in one camp or the other. Devin: That's very cool. Yeah, I I always find it fascinating when people are like, yeah, I just my characters make all the decisions. And in my head, I'm just like, this is why I couldn't be an author. Cause in my head I'm just like, I can't imagine a world where I'm not like, you know, like they talk about tension between two characters or like an argument or something. And they're like, I just couldn't get him to get along. And I'm just like, no, I'd be like, no, fuck you. You're mine. And I'm typing, which Cal: Yeah. Devin: would probably make me a terrible author. But Cal: There there's a point where if you ever do get around get around to riding or want to take a crack at it, there is a point where like it's easy to think that and you'll be riding the story and you'll be like like, well, actually 'cause there are things you want to happen, you might intellectually want to happen, and then like you're riding it and you're like, No, this is dog shit, like this actually doesn't fit the story. So and I've I've had those moments. Like, I think I I probably talked about this a little bit, but in my first draft, Jin and Shore were were pretty one dimensional. Jin was very much like just the violent brute. And sure it was ver and was more altruistic and very much like the like we gotta help people and do the right thing and I was like this conflict just feels so shallow and and like I was like, I've seen this before and and and Devin: Mm. Cal: it I was writing it and I'm like, You suck, man. Like you can do better. Like add like add some add some layers to this. Like like like let's make this interesting. You know. So that's and that's where I decided to like really and you know, it's it took a few drafts and I was still you know, getting my feet under under me as as a a moderately experienced writer. and that's when I was able to add like some real texture to the characters and give them like, we're on the same side, but we have opposing values or we handle conflict differently and and this is what I want out of life. Well this is what I want out of life, but we're still working towards the same short term goal, even though our long term goals might differ. Like how you know, and how do all those play out, you know, and eventually like once I had a good sense the characters, it came to play out pretty naturally. so like now their arguments or conversations are a lot easier to write than they were in like the first half of Shadow Bane when I was still trying to figure out like who they were. And that's stuff Devin: Mm hmm. Cal: like I had an idea and I would like write a scene with them and I'm like, No, like this doesn't work. Like I just like I don't believe it, you know? Devin: That makes sense. I still think I'd be dog shit, but okay. Cal: Well, ever everyone's option at first and then, you know, you you try you try and try and try again and eventually it become you know, it gets decent. Pete: Yeah, and that that's actually what I wanted to ask because when at the beginning of this episode, I think you said you've been writing for ten years. was Shadow Bane your first attempt at writing a story, or was there things along the way? Like how did you work at this craft to the point where you're you were comfortable with Shadow Bane being something that you were ready for the world to see? Cal: so I I've ripped fun my entire life and I wrote my first book actually when I was like seventeen and it was like the dumpster novel, you know, like the thing that you just throw away and never look at again. and so I I don't count any of that in terms of like how long for I've been writing because I feel like it was like a kid practicing. so I started writing like seriously when I was twenty five. I worked on this book

called Sundering and it took me four years to get it to a point where I was able to get an agent. like a junior agent at like you know like a smaller agency. And then that went on submission and he told me to write something else. He's like, Don't write the sequel because if I can't sell this, then your sequel's dead anyways. He's like, Give me a standalone because you know, standalones are less risky for publishers and and they're they're the hot thing right now. So write that. And that became Shadow Bane. my first book I actually made it to acquisitions at a smaller publisher and then Or I guess like a like a moderate sized imprint that was part of a bigger bigger publisher. so like bigger than an indie press, just not a big five press. And and then they turned it down because they want they didn't want a debut author. And then and it died on sub. It was one of the like kind of the last queries we did and and and it didn't work out. And then so I sent him Shadow Bane and I got like silenced for like three or four months. And then he calls me on St. Patrick's Day. So I was like, kind of drunk. And he's hey, Devin: Ha. Cal: man, he's like, I'm leaving the industry. And I was like, I was like, is my book any good at least? He's like, I didn't read it. I'm like, okay. Yeah. Pete: What have we revealed? Cal: so that was kind of a gut shot. And and and and he and he was he was still very professional about it. He gave me like other contacts, other agents. He referred me some some other agents who did fantasy in his in his agency. so, you know, it's not like, you know, he was just moving on to a different thing. And then it is what it is. but that put me in a tough spot because the standalone was 200,000 words. So I knew I couldn't get a new agent with that. And even the agents at his agency did not handle like Grimdark. They did a very different, you know, subgenres of fantasy. So I just knew it wasn't going to work out. I didn't want to go all the way back to the Quarian trenches. so I kinda had like this thought of I was like, I need to make a decision. I need to either trim this way down and then requerry. But it still felt like underdeveloped. I was like, or I can cut this in half and the first half is my debut novel as as a indie author. And that's what I ended doing. And the second half the more I like worked on the t story, the second half is now gonna be book three, and what book two came out of was like a single paragraph. Like when it was Devin: No shit. Cal: Yeah. so this was probably the hardest to write structurally because there was so much connective tissue that I needed to put in. but the in like the entire conflict of basically trying to galvanize the entire nation to war was like when it was originally written, it was like King Otto was like, We're going to war and everyone's like, Yeah. Pete: Yeah. Cal: So, you know, I I I muddied things up a bit and got a whole got a whole second book out of it. Pete: That's so interesting. I yeah, I never Devin: That's awesome. Yeah. Pete: would have guessed that. That's so dope. Devin: That's yeah. The I I don't envy the the querying process at all. I will say, Cal: It's brutal, man. Devin: though, to to be able to land even a junior agent is like incredibly impressive. And like let alone make it to acquisitions. And like obviously, you know, it sucks when something dies on sub, of course, but like that is a tenfold like higher than majority of people even make it. so it says a lot about craft and like how well your writing is and like how you've honed it over time. Even if like we talk a lot about how how much work goes in where like nobody ever sees it. Like you said, you have the dumpster novel. You don't count that, but I I would argue that even the dumpster novel counts because you're you're putting reps in. It's, you know, like anything else in life. Like you see a major league pitcher on the mound, like that dude didn't you know, wake up one day and just start throwing hundred mile an hour fastballs. But nobody knows that, you know, his father was dragging him to Saturday morning pitching camp at, you know, eight years old, miserable as shit, probably. Cal: Yeah. You don't you don't see all the pitches that that went eight feet wide of the plate. Pete: Yeah. Devin: Yeah. It's much better analogy. I'm a shitty sports analogy first. Pete: Unless they're on the mat. Then then you see it every night. Devin: but yeah, no, I mean that's really cool. It's very interesting how you're not the first person I've heard say that. And it's always kind of cool how like books have to be split, even though I don't I would love for them to just publish 200k standalones, but like I know nobody touches debut over like a hundred change. so it's very interesting to see though. I think publishers are opening up to it more, I hope. At least. Cal: I I think when those come from, you know, more proven sources, they're more willing to take a risk. and and the thing too is that is that if I felt like it was a fully fleshed out, self contained story that I could trim down a little bit, then I might have just queried as or publis self published as a standalone. But it it was it was underdeveloped. So that that's the thing. It's Devin: Yeah. Cal: like I felt I felt like I spitballed, you know, at the time two, and then I realized three books in into, you know the s the span of one large book because the moment I cut it in half and gave myself like some more wiggle room with the word count, like a story just like really like thickened up and in in a good way I think. Devin: that's Pete: Definitely think so, 'cause it it it's just interesting that the f s the half that you cut out of book one became book three and then it was like, shit, how do I bridge this when Devin: Yeah. Pete: previously it was all together? So I think that's just very cool. Cal: It was originally gonna be book two and then I was on like seven hundred pages and still like not even

approaching the point where they like where their like stuff really starts to draw to a close and I was like, Okay, I like this is this is two books. Pete: Mm-hmm. Cal: So so then I just you know, so I fleshed out more of the connective tissue. Like in the original let's say the original draft of when I was like there's a book two when I was like I wanna flesh out them like mobilizing for war and some political conflict, like Amano Jacku and the whole like demon arc wasn't even part of the story yet. Because originally it was like they're just going sailing off to war and then going to the Blackwoods. So there wasn't like I didn't need like a a mythological backbone there because it was that was just like the get the bridge part. But now I'm like, well it's its own book and it can't be all political, military fantasy. Like I still need the I still need to carry the like demon and like gods and demons mythological plot line through. So that's where we get you know, Amano Jacku and and friends Pete: Can I ask then, because I'm also just curious what your influences were in putting all of these things together. Like you mentioned, you know, that this would be considered grimdark and everything. And I agree because there is one of the more brutal death scenes I've ever read in my entire life, in this, that was those eight messages in a row. I'm not even gonna spoil it. If you don't know it, when you read it, you have some psychological problems. Because I was reading it And I was like, the it was it was 14 different deaths in one scene to one person. And I was like, whoa, like we I well deserved. But I it was it was so well deserved. Very cathartic. But What I wanted to ask was what the influences were on you to create this story where it had those type of influence in it and along with the supernatural demons. Like what did you obviously the the background of the story is, you know, very Asian influenced. but are a lot of those demons and things that are we read about in the story, are they based on real mythological creatures, or was some of that also taken just off the top of your head and create? Created. Cal: So probably like ninety, ninety five percent of the of the demons you see in there are real Japanese yokai, you know, from their folklore. I occasionally do a small embellishment, like the like the tunari, like the venomous serpents. Like they don't have poisonous stingers, so I but I just included that to give them an extra weapon. and then th there's another one that I kind of emb embellished or added to in the first book. Amana Jacku is like a type of demon. but it translates to heavenly evil spirits and and then the the kind of like like shape shifting thing I like kind of made up, but in the folklore it is a type of demon that basically like skins someone and then wore their skin. So like that is you know, that is ripped directly from the mythology and then I just incorporated a like a met metaphysical element to it where with like possession of the soul and and stuff like that. so I try I try to hold true to as much of like the folklore and mythology as possible. I feel like that's you know, I I don't want to just like I'm playing in another culture's sandbox and I don't mind like taking some small liberties, but I don't just want to like pull stuff out of left field if I'm especially using that culture as like a base for like the world building, the mythology and marketing it as something that's based off of this off of feudal Japan and it's and their folklore. So I try to keep, you know, a as much like real lore in there as I can. Devin: what made you want to kind of utilize that as the backbone of the story? Yeah. Cal: like a feudal Japanese setting. Once I had the concept of like twins hunting demons, I I knew I didn't want to do like Western Judeo Christian demons or deities just 'cause it's like I don't know. I I just don't really I just don't really want to touch it. People you know, people have are they're so cl like so close that religion in America and I just I and they're not you know like Western or like Judeo Christian demons are like corporeal. They're you they're all like just like invisible fallen angels and and I didn't feel like I had a lot to work with there. Whereas in feudal Japanese, or in Japanese folklore, like there's hundreds of different types and they have like real bodies they can like and they interact with the populace. Like some of them are malicious, some some are they're like not the demons but the yokai, some are benevolent or just kinda keeps themselves. So there there's just such a variety there that I felt like I I could work with. And I've always been interested in feudal Japan in general, so this felt like the perfect opportun opportunity to to really like explore and learn more about the culture myself. Devin: that's awesome. Yeah, I I always find it interesting where people pick up their inspirations from, especially I I love that genre of like I I'm a bit of an anime nerd though I haven't been able to watch any of it in so long. So I love a lot of that, like Demon Hunter or Demon Slayer. Am I gonna screw that up? Demon Slayer? Cal: He was there, yeah. Devin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. So like that anytime I get a vibe like that, I'm like, I'm in. Like instant buy in, but it's Cal: Did did you I don't know if you if I I I had this a as a cover quote or a or a marketing quote at one point, but it was from Andy Palakin said this. he said, if the Demon Slayer was written in a western style and went full grim dark, the result would still be mild and cheerful compared to Shadow Bane. Devin: It Andy, let me tell you, Andy, well, he does marketing, I guess, now, but that that is so his calling, man. Everything that comes out of his mouth is just like it's like go buy this book. Everything he talks about, I'm like, I need to go buy this. Cal: Yeah. I'm I'm like I sometimes I I skip his videos 'cause I'm like, yeah, like I'm gonna buy

it. So like I I don't have any money. Devin: Yeah. Cal: Like just like I gotta I gotta I gotta skip scroll past this for the for the sake of my wallet. Yeah, he he's he's great, man. Devin: He is. I just it it amazes me how much Andy puts out and majority of it's not about his own shit, which blows my mind. Pete: Yeah. It's very funny actually that especially him, but like you start to see more people and I think even in in the Shadow Vein like thank you section. I think you've thanked Bill Adams for talking about Shadow Bane more than you do, which is just very funny. Like every once in a Cal: Nice. Pete: while something gets like it just like hits with people and it's like that i i you also make it very easy. Like I said we are you're the first two time returning guest and it's a key example of why I wanted to start doing the show because the more you get to actually like peek behind the curtain to someone's you know the influences behind their writing, what goes into it, and you hear them as a person and especially a cool person, thank God. I'm not even just saying it, but thank God we haven't had any like And like they were okay people, like on the sh every person that's been on has been cool, especially in like the indie scene, which is what I set out to do like a year ago and get like the word out there. You know, there have been people on this show who are on the the bestseller. They don't need me or anything to be like, you know, push it but it's it it kinda just is a testament to the work that you guys put in as indie odd like, you know, you have a full time job, like This is just something you do on the side, and the things that come with it may you may not have even planned to do like marketing your own stuff, making reels, doing all this type of things, and really the connections you make along the way by being such a genuine and cool person, like pay dividends in the end, it's obvious you know that talking to you not only the second time here but behind the scenes that it's not like a fake persona and everything. And I really think that comes across. So I wanted to see in this whole journey of, you know, the the self-publishing, the indie and everything like that, what do you think the biggest takeaway is for other people who are maybe just starting off in their journey to get themselves out there and really just like build connections to the point that you have along the way. Cal: I would say just to to be unafraid. just like really put yourself out there. I I know that I I struggled with like I am naturally introverted, and I'm that that like terrible brand of introvert where like if I'm comfortable with someone I won't fucking shut up but like but in my head in like like reaching out like to like new people or social situations can be pretty tough for me to be honest. and so like I was very nervous to like just to to comment on people's stuff even or like to to like to put my own content out there. even like discussing books 'cause I'm like, what if I have a piece of criticism but other people like this book? Like am I gonna get like hate, shamed and and I just kinda like I had to get out of my own way and just put myself out there genuinely. and I think that's a big part of it is i if you're putting on errors or like some kind of persona, people will smell that a mile away. So just find find something that a way that you can present your your thoughts, your opinions, your your your feelings on on books and then and you know stuff you enjoy reading in a way that's genuine, because that'll make it sustainable. You cannot fake it. this is this game is a marathon both on the writing and the marketing side. So you need to find something that like that feels like it fills your cup even as you pour it pour yourself into it. And that's kind of what has has helped me start to turn the core on social media and be able to to discuss you know, books in general and include my own work in a way where it feels like I'm not just shot into the void or or beating people over the head with like, buy my book 'cause like no one w I don't want to be that guy. No one no one likes that guy. Devin: What do you mean every single post you make should be the same infographic of a picture of your book and that it's on sale in a week? No, I'm kidding. no, I I do Cal: Yeah, I'm fine. Devin: I definitely your content is great. I think what I appreciate most and what gives me an idea, I think, and what a lot of people I've noticed, I don't know if they're hesitant. You touched on it a little bit, but like is talking about other books, whether that be indie or trad or whatever. Because I think it helps like as a reader and like somebody who strictly reads, like it's it helps get an idea of like Yeah, you can pitch your book and everything like that. And like you have a dope cover, like you hit all of those notes. But like getting to see your thoughts on books that I've read and like what you vibed with in the story and like what your takeaways are kind of lead me to I mean, I could be completely off base and like you you love all of those things and then say, Fuck it, and I don't write anything like that. But I think in most cases, you know, you're taking something when you read, regardless, you know. You're not plagiarizing it by any means, but everything's an inspiration, everything's a thought. And I think getting the idea of what people have similar takeaways in other stories that you've both read already give me a good idea of like what the author's story at least will be like to an extent. that and every time you open a fucking box with the sword, and I'm convinced you're gonna stab yourself. So I'm like watching like this. Cal: I feel like I could maybe lean more to the sword gimmick. Devin: I I think that if you really want to commit the bit, you're you're just eventually gonna have to stab yourself with the sword. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that, please. Yeah, there's a little

Cal: I mean, you know not not like eat, but it's like just like superficial, you just like just a fluffy. Devin: scratch, a little hole in the pants. No, it is funny. I'm actually to be frank, and this I don't know what this says about me as a person, I'm mostly more worried about the books than you like stabbing through the box into your thigh. I'm always like, he's gonna fuck the book up. Cal: me too. Yeah, do you like you know how how bad I would feel if I fucked up up someone's book in the middle of a bookmail video? There's only one page. So like I just I'd have to just roll with it. Devin: I mean, now I want you to skewer a book and like that just read the god, I s I'm I'm so content brained. Pete: Maybe your next one star. Cal: I I I had have not had the courage to attempt it yet, but at some point I wanna like set up the box where like so the tape is like here and just wind up with the sword and slash at it. So I like hoping I can just like split it open and have the books come out. Devin: That would be dope. Cal: you know how like they test katana's slash like the swordsman's skill by like cutting bamboo mats in half? Maybe Devin: Yeah. Cal: I'll do maybe I'll do that with books I don't like. Devin: Hot takes. Pete: Exactly. Yeah, the one star challenge and you see how many you can cut through. Devin: It's gotta be classics Cal: Yeah. Devin: though. Like classics only will really set everybody off. Pete: Yeah, exactly. Cal: I'll be like I'll be like, like this Tolkien guy wrote this book called The Lord of the Rings. I'd never heard of this. Too slow, so much too much exposition, not enough not enough manager. Pete: Talking I'm talking trees, indie trash. Devin: Not enough pages. That's that's always Cal: Silver, Devin: my favorite argument. Tolkien. Cal: silver, my my god, all the orcs are bad. This is Pete: Yeah, right. Devin: The not unless it's Amazon, then they have babies and they love everybody. Cal: and no don't get me started on that series. I just I I can't. Devin: all right. So I actually back to the content for a second, because I think I have a genius idea for you and I think people will go crazy. And anybody watching this probably hopefully don't steal the idea or Cal will just do it first before this goes live. I think your next indie read, you gotta stab the katana through it from the back to the front, and then you have to read the book with the katana through it, like ripping each page. People will be glued, lose their minds, and it would be super dope. Cal: man, I ruined the book though. Pete: You got a bikes here. Yeah. Devin: Well, that's why buy two. And then you give it away. Look, it's I'm telling you, Pete: Yeah, exactly. Devin: it just all Pete: Yeah. Devin: Here's my signature. It's just the katana with a completely ripped in half book. Pete: Yeah. You know who this sword signed by? Randy Jackson. American Idol. Cal: Randy Jackson. The only thing I had on me and you're not not gonna get Randy Jackson's autograph, so Yeah, we yeah, we're the same age. We we both saw step brothers in high school, didn't we? Yeah. Pete: yeah. Numer way too Devin: Yes. Pete: many times. Devin: That's all I still watch that. I love that movie. Anyway. Pete: It's it's good. Devin: You know, you know, random total tirade, not book related at all. But I watched Superbad for the first time in like years the other day and I was like, my god, this movie holds up so well. Pete: Super Bad is like a top five comedy of all time. Devin: And it's crazy because I feel like anybody that's not in their mid thirties has not watched like they're What is super bad? I'm like, what do you mean? Pete: Mm. Cal: It kinda like became a c a cult classic, but it's it it's legitimately a great movie. Pete: Mm-hmm. Devin: It's yeah. Pete: I may have to we're we're gonna have to put this on because this is staying in the episode obviously, but Devin: Yeah. Pete: I think we're gonna have to add B Real 'cause w the other day, Morgan just turned three and maybe like a week and a half ago, Laura was it we were all in the living room and she was going, Fogle, bye and Morgan is belly laughing and she starts going, Morgan, bye and I'm t we're gonna Devin: that's so good. Pete: put it at the end of this episode. Stay tuned for it, it'll go viral. on its own of a three year old belly laughing at Fogelby. It was like one of the funniest Devin: That's Pete: things there because we both love the movie and we were just like, what is going? I mean, I guess it's transcending. Cal: You can pick like any like f one out of four lines and it's just incredibly quotable with regardless of the Devin: Yes. Cal: context. Devin: all those movies, I feel like we got spoiled with comedies like as millennials, because like all all those movies that came out old school at the time, like that was incredible. Yep. Cal: Like the hangover, hot tub time machine, twenty one jump street, just Devin: Just banger after banger of like comedy movies. Now nothing is funny. Cal: Yeah. There there was like a twelve year period where movies were hysterical. Devin: be other guys. That was another great that's so underrated. Pete: The other guys was I left the theater and I was like, that was the biggest piece of shit I've ever watched in my life. And I Devin: You didn't like the other guys? Pete: hated it. I was like, that was so fucking dumb. And then I watched it like when it came Devin: I am fucking offended. Pete: out on DVD and I was like Okay, this is pretty good. And every time I watch it after, it's one of my favorite movies ever now. But that I don't know why. I o first off, the other guys, amazing. The nice guys, really amazing. Have you guys watched the nice guys? Cal: with Russell Crowe and Ryan Ryan Gosling. Yeah, the movie's off. Devin: Y Yeah. Pete: Yeah. It's so good. Devin: That I can't believe you didn't like it the first I'm glad you've redeemed yourself. I was about to not host with you anymore because that's like peak

comedy. I was upset with you for a minute there. Cal: No don't Pete: No Cal: make me the episode that breaks apart this beautiful partnership. Pete: Right. Devin: And it would have only been it's Mark Wahlberg. Mark Wahlberg would have been why we broke up. Cause like he's so unintentionally funny. Like Pete: He's so funny and Michael Keaton working a double job at Bed Beth and Beyond to end as like a police lieutenant and he's Devin: And and quoting TLC the entire movie. Pete: so good. And where he's walking home and he's just like, Alright now everyone, be careful, we got a rapist running around through Battery Park. And he looks up, he's in Bed Baths and Beyond, he's like, sorry, this is my other job. But walk into theirs. Devin: shit. Pete: Amazing. But one of the other things Cal: Gabriel someone else. Pete: I had to get Devin: Yeah. Pete: an update on this because this was something also not book related, but we talked about in October. What's the best concert you've seen recently? Cal: Recently, all right, so we saw Thornhill and Currents at at this theater called Riviera in Chicago. And you know, really solid show. Like I I ended up in the front row by the time Thornhill got on stage. so I'm like you I'm like on the gate and you know, just like rocking out and having a great time. And then this like this like sixteen year old kid taps me on the shoulder, he's like, Hey bro, like can you like can I can we switch? Can I get in front? 'Cause I wanna catch a guitar pick. And I'm like, well maybe I want a guitar pick, dude. Like, no. Pete: Perfect. Cal: And and the and the show the show ends and and then like they're throwing stuff out and like that you know, the one of the drumsticks goes over my head, the other one goes into the balcony, the set list goes this way, and then like the guitarist is walking up and I like made eye contact with them. I'm like and he so he like kind of does like one of these and like he's like throwing it like like eye contact, throwing it right at me, and it goes to my right, but it lands in front of the gate. And so I'm like, okay. So I go to hop the gate and the girl next to me, who has like not been participating in the show at all, like she's just been leaning on the gate and her boyfriend's arms are around her, and Pete: Yeah. Cal: there's like crowd surfers like crashing on our heads and there none of them can bother to lift a hand. And I'm like, guys, like come on, do your like do your part. Like just like just something. Like I I'm having to like like haul people over. And sh so she goes to stop me and she like grabs my shirt and she's screaming at me, she's going, fuck off! Fuck off and I'm like no and I just I just topped the gate anyways. I'm like you like you're not gonna pull me off this thing. I got got the guitar pick, walked away, I'm like, alright, like that worked. And then sh and then I'm waiting for my wife to get out of the bathroom and the girl comes up and like accosts me and she's like yelling at me about it. And I was just like look, like I'm I'm not giving it to you and he didn't throw it at you. So like I don't like I don't know what you want from me. So it was it was a pretty it was a pretty funny night. Pete: Yeah, sorry. People are weird, Devin: I Pete: man. Devin: yeah, concerts are I don't go all that often. My wife's a big concert person, so I go like, you know, to be the good husband. And we went to postmaron postmarone. Post Malone and Jelly Roll at the Buck Stadium like two weeks ago, I think, something like that. And we got like banger seats. Like we were Because his stage is like it's like tea. So like it comes out and then like branches off. So like we were like four rows back. But my wife did not intentionally buy the right seats, but did because at the very end of the show, he walks the aisle, which is the aisle we were in, and she lost her shit, which good for her. But in the midst of all of this, as he's setting up, the reason I bring this up, the row behind us, this woman is piss drunk. It's the Tampa heat, it's a hundred degrees. People have been drinking all day. Literally the last song. Like when he's gonna walk by, like the reason you buy these seats, she gets into like a fist fight. And it was the best thing I've ever seen in my life for the sheer fact that it was like the karma. She was just being a dick. And she's sitting in a seat and like the girl's trying to see, and she shoves this girl, and the girl just cracks her in the head. And security grabs her and the other girl. But then this woman just starts fighting with security. So they let the girl that hit her go. And she was like, look, man, I got technically hit first. So fuck you. But as this woman was walking out, she was literally like, because they were shoving her to the other side because he was coming down the aisle. She was just shoving people like security was trying to get to her and it was just a melee. And every time she shoved somebody, she got punched in the face. And I'm like, man, karma is so incredible. And my wife was like, You were just looking at them like everybody was dumb. I was like, I did 10 years of people fist fighting and having to break it up. And the one thing I learned was let people beat the shit out of each other and eventually they're gonna be tired and that's when you get involved. Pete: Yeah, you have a Cal: Were you like a bouncer or Devin: I did public safety for like 10 years. It sucked. It's Cal: Yeah. Devin: an ass profession for anybody that wants to know. don't do it. Pete: It's very okay. Concerts are weird. Cal: Yeah. Fl Florida, right? It's a Tampa, so yeah. Not surprised. You know, Florida. Devin: Yeah. no, Florida people are Florida people. Like I guess I'm a Florida person now, but I'm a I'm a transplant, so I don't know if that counts. I'm not Florida manned enough yet. Cal: No, you you gotta be homegrown, born and raised. Devin: And she didn't even get pinched. I was very impressed. I think they

felt bad because she got punched in face like eight times. Well deserved, but Pete: They were like, Yeah, we'll get it. Cal: They're like y you you had your you but you paid your dues. Devin: shit. Wow, this segue's so hard. Cal: Yeah, I you gave me start on concerts and live music, yeah. There's there's some Devin: I Cal: stories in there. Devin: I always try to avoid them and then I have a great time when I go. Like, cause I always forget they don't just play their songs. Like, I don't know, maybe the concerts you go to they do, but like first of all, Jelly Roll puts on a hell of a show. I will say. That that big old country bastard. He's great. But he was singing TLC, actually. Speaking of that, they sang no scrubs, and I was like, this is the most wild shit. I was like, why is this happening? Pete: Yeah, that's a random cover, but respect. Devin: They covered a lot of random shit. It was insane. Pete: Yeah. It's a lot of fun. I like concerts. I just don't go to them that often. But it is very I know, Devin: We're we're all beat. That's what happens. We're all Pete: but like I went and saw like Ale this is the last thing I'll mention for it. But I saw like similar to what Cal's point was where people are just there. I saw Aylstorm, who's like a pirate metal band. They sing about Alestorm and they Cal: Ail Storm? That's a brilliant name. Pete: They are ridiculously sick and they sing about just being pirates and I was there with like my Devin: That's excellent. Pete: brothers. We had like eye patches, like we were just there to like party and like people showed up in like dresses and like tricorn hats and like the people in front of us just stood there and just watched and I was like, That's serial killer vibes. Like you're not bouncing or bobbin or anything, like no any i it was just really weird, but Cal: Yeah. I I feel Pete: One minute. Cal: like if if you're there at a at a big show or anything, especially when it's like the headline or it's not like the opener or anything like that, like if you're yeah, if you're not moving a little bit, I'm like, What like I don't be judgmental, but like why are you there? Like like it's cost a lot of money. Pete: Especially all dressed up. Like you can you can not dress up for free at home. Look at it that way. Pivoting Devin: Truth. God. Cal: Yeah. Pete: to the book, hold on, ca 'cause I I'm I have a hard pivot right now, 'cause this is something okay. Devin: I was gonna hard pivot back to the book, so go ahead. Pete: I'm hard pivoting back because this crossed my head, my mind, when I was reading it. And I think it's a pretty good comparison because like I already mentioned, again, I'm not getting too spoilery, but book two, way more political, as far as the ratio the you know, the ratio of action scene to character-driven plot points, that type of thing. How would you feel about the comparison to this being? a feast for crows compared to the previous books, Storm of Swords, where it was kind of that relentless action and you never know what's coming. Because a lot of people go, I don't really like a s of you know, a feast for crows compared to Storm of Swords. And then when you read it, you go, they're just as fucking good. Like I enjoyed this very much. And it really it kind of is a whole different way of storytelling, which really popped into my head when you said that you had to cut the book in half, because obviously that broke into Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons, but How do you feel about a comparison where a person may not go in expecting to like it as much, but really it is the I because I think the subtext and the different plot points that you hit in book two, I mentioned already I think book one, I don't think book one was my indie read of the year of twenty twenty five. I finished book two a couple days ago. I think you may have twenty twenty six locked up as well, which is It it's up it's gotta be top three at least at this point in the year, which is awesome, 'cause I was a little Not skeptical coming in, I knew it was gonna be good, but with such a different vibe to the book, you knocked it out of the fucking park. So based on those two books, and again I don't wanna get too spoilery for book three, what do you think the ratio is so far for what you're currently working on to really tie this series together? Cal: Crows for Crows, I will happily take any G R R comparison. Devin: I was gonna say that's that's a no brainer. Cal: Yeah. no, I'm not gonna split hairs there. I as far as specifics, I have not read the books actually. So I don't ha like having not having read like the kind of the political versus action driven split in another media medium, I I can't s I don't have a frame of reference for that. but like I said, man, I'll happily take any comparison there. and I think there's something regarding the response of like w what some people like might have wanted more action driven and then turned off by the political side or vice versa. you can't please everyone. So there was like two distinct reviews come to mind in that regard. So there was a a guy who and he I have only interacted with him on or like I seen his stuff on Goodreads, so I haven't interacted on the social media or anything. He loved the first book to the point where he was like, This is awesome. It's like nonstop, like blood drenched, just just Battle Fury crazy shit. Like, get out of here, snowflakes. Like the book doesn't even have a plot, but it doesn't matter. It's awesome. And for the first book, right? And the third book he was like, three stars, pretty lame. Like like like Pete: Yeah. Cal: he just like like Devin: I fucking love good reads. Cal: the politics just did not work for him. And it's fine. Like he was clearly like very the action the nonstop action appealed to him and and he just wasn't there. He thought the action was like too little, too late and just and You he got bored of the politics and he said it was like middle book syndrome.

That's fair, you know, people are gonna have their opinions. And then like on the opposite side, have Esme Rosalind who like really enjoyed the first book, and she said like she did not expect to like it as much as she did because the amount of action. but she but she's like, but she's like, I, you know, kind of wish we had more quieter, slower moments because I feel like those are the best moments of the book. And then this and then the second book, like the first line is like, it feels like Cal Logan looked at my brain and wrote the second book, especially for me, or exactly for me. It's like because it took it took everything I wanted more out of the first book and just like tripled down on it. So people's personal tastes are gonna influence that. And you know, I like I like I said, I wrote what I think that the story needed. I, you know, I wrote what I think was n a natural evolution of the characters and the circumstances they find themselves in. so that, you know, whatever people have to say about it for better or for worse, like. I already wrote the book. It's already out there, so it's kind of it's kinda out of my hand now. Devin: Well, I mean Esme is the queen of Grimdark, so I will say that that is high, high praise, especially because she she can be Esme is never mean, but she is a very tough reviewer. Like she'll never shit on a book. I've never seen her shit on a book, but she will be very open about like, hey, this really wasn't my vibe. And like this, you know, you'll like it if you like X, Y, and Z, but it kind of, you know, sucked for me. but what I was gonna say about the first guy is I think that you should do a little hunting and see if he reviewed Red Rising. I have noticed there's a very distinct type of reader who, if they love that shit and that's all they love, the second there's any depth of On top of that, they're like, what the fuck? They're like, This this is they're people now. This shit sucks. I just want people's heads to explode and shit to get chopped off, and you know. but in that similar vein, my favorite question to ask that I ask everybody that's on here before we wrap up is now you're on book two, reviews are out for obviously book one and book two. Is there something that readers have latched onto where you're like, That's the thing. Like you just never expected them to like love. And like when you were writing it, you just kinda it could have been like a passing thought or it was just kind of a section where you were like, this fits. Let me get it in so I can get to the part I wanna write. Cal: Yeah. So the the mythology people enjoy a lot more than I expected. And in my in my writer brain, I I include these little vignettes at the beginning of each like major section break, like part one, part two, part three, there's some little like flashbacks. So these are things that you as the reader see but the characters haven't seen. And then there are like some some dreams that the main character has that and those that also feature the gods, and those are things that like the characters know and then you as the reader know. there's a reason why I presented these like two little two different ways to look at at the same piece of backstory. And to me, these were like connective tissue that just needs to be slowly put in place so that by the time the third book comes around, I can leave people's brains like spattered on the floor. But some people really, really like them and I'm like kind of amazed 'cause I'm like, you like I haven't even begun to pay this off yet. So I'm really surprised that some people just are enjoying the background lore that much. Cause I'm like I was like, I don't even this isn't even necessarily supposed to make sense yet. So it's really cool to see that people are really latching on to and and enjoying how much that this little bit of background mythology is being explored. Devin: that's awesome. Yeah, I I always I love that question because nine times out of ten, there's always something where authors are like, it was just something that I had to do. And like that was the thing people just ate up and are like constantly praising. so I guess I I I like to ask it, especially with indie, and I know like a lot of indie people watch this, is like nothing you're doing is going to waste. Like and something you might think is just like throw away or like. A necessity that you're like forced to write could end up being the thing that like people latch into and like hold on to and are the reason they continue your series. Cal: Yeah, I'm kinda starting to realize that and and it's r and it's really cool because you know it is like different people like different aspects of of the book. you know, e kind of like we were just talking about how like the one guy just enjoyed just a sheer insane gore versus Asme was like, like like the romance scenes were like really nice. I was like I was like, there I mean it wasn't a major focus. Like obviously I tried to write them well and and and render those relationships in a way that was believable, but at no point had I thought like This romance scene is totally gonna sell someone on this book. Like that just was not a thought that entered Pete: It's very interesting. Yeah, the tastes of any given person. Yeah, before finishing up, I d wanted to ask again for as with as much as you can say, how's book three coming? And is there anything that you are floating around genre wise or any ideas in your head for when the series is done, or are you just focusing on pumping out book three at the moment? Cal: So I am actually working on a prequel novella. Right. And that's going to come out first. That's about halfway through my first draft. and then book three is partially drafted as well. so and I have ideas for other projects, but I I I'm not even touching those. Like I just I want you know, I want to focus on this. not gonna be like that guy who doesn't finish his series. so definitely, you know,

definitely Devin: Come on, you can be Rothis. Cal: If yeah, if I if I sold a couple million more copies maybe, but you know. until you know, until Pete: Yeah, exactly. Cal: then I can't I cannot afford to to upset the the people. and then I I and then what was the other part of your question, Pete? Pete: I I think that was it. I was saying anything else you're working on and just any progress of or timeline for book three? Cal: Book three, I'm hoping, twenty twenty eight. So the idea will be to get the prequel novella out next year, and then book three, year after that. And So I remembered. Alright, you'd asked about like the the balance of action versus like politics and stuff, I think in book three. Alright. Pete: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like how you're tying it together. Cal: Yeah. no, book three, like we're we're going back to we're going back to crazy shit. It's like they they're going to war. It's so there's, you know, th there is a little bit of killing in war, I or so I hear. So you're gonna see you know, you're gonna see them on on separate fronts and I'm you know book three is also gonna have the most mythology because that's where like the prophecy and everything comes to a head. obviously I don't intend to leave you know the deep character work by the wayside, but it's you know there's kind of been like book two was the calm before the storm, and book three it's it it's it's all coming to a head. so there'll be you know multiple like large scale battles and it's just gonna be and the way the way I almost like conceptualized it in my head is like book one is like action adventure fantasy, book two is like political fantasy, book three is military fantasy. As far as Devin: Nice. Cal: you know, the little, like, you know, all under the same broad grim, you know, grim dark umbrella. Devin: just to to keep it in the vein of this, the prequel novella, what's the idea with that? Cal: So you're gonna get basically a deep a deep dive into the characters' lives and their childhood, which is only like referenced or like very briefly explored through a couple small flashbacks. So you're actually gonna see like what their day-to-day was like, you're gonna find out kind of the incident that got them like banished from from their where they were raised, and you're gonna see their early days on the road when they were really inexperienced and naive and just kind of cruising on like piss and vinegar. and that is going to be a little bit A little bit slower, little more character driven. It's still you know, similar to like this book two, it's still gonna have some insane moments. but it's gonna be a lot of like like watching the characters at a younger age get their f you know, get their feet underneath them and like and like cut their teeth for the first time. so that would probably almost lean most towards like kind of like classic fantasy with like the coming of age arc, but it's still going to like it's still gonna have my grimdark twist on it and you know, as far as like, you know, the the callousness and the violence that happens. but it'll be a little slow more slowly rolled in as opposed to like Shadow Bane opening with Jin literally ripping a demon's guts out of her face. Devin: That's perfect. shit. all right. So first of all, thank you. But more importantly, plug all the shit, Cal. Give me times, dates, Instagram handles, all whatever other social media you peruse and you know shit post on. and my my famous note to all you bastards that are watching this and not subscribe, which is like eighty fucking percent of you hit the stupid button because we all want to pretend to quit our day jobs never actually gonna happen, but it makes me feel better. So inflate my ego and Pete's ego and subscribe to the channel. But Cal, go ahead. Cal: Alright, grab my books Shadow Bane and Shadow Vane either on Amazon or you can buy signed copies, nice jacketed signed hardcovers direct, and I will sign them and wrap them. Hang on one second. Devin: He he does a nice job. Yeah. yes. Pete: Very nice grab too. Cal: Sign them and wrap them beautifully like so. Like complete with stickers and bookmarks and swag, and I will send them to you. You can also follow me on social media. I am I have Twitter that I don't post too much anymore. at CalP Logan, Instagram, TikTok at Cal LoganAuthor, and let's see, vague audiobook news. I feel comfortable throwing that out there now. I will Devin: Mm-hmm. Cal: I will maybe give give more specific audiobook news at some point in the future, but I feel comfortable saying that. and look out for the prequel novella coming at an undisclosed time next year. Pete: Perfect. Lay down the law Devin: Yeah. Pete: and yeah, this was awesome. Again, thank you very much for having a good enough time to return and I'm sure we will be seeing you again on here 'cause we're moving on up. Maybe next year I'll have like a leather chair and a clear camera, you know, baby steps along the way. So but yeah, dude, this was awesome. Seriously, thank you again for joining. I appreciate it. We appreciate it very much. Devin: Yeah. Cal: Thank you. Thank you both for having me. like I said, I'm happy to return any anytime. you got you know, you guys are great hosts and that's obviously I like I like talking about my book 'cause I'm a writer. Pete: Yeah. Devin: Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. All right. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Hit the fucking subscribe button. All right. And we'll pretend what episode is next time and all that stuff. So bye. Thanks.